Pet Peeves, Round 3: The Gripes That Just Won’t Quit

We’re back with more of the literacy gripes that make us wince, laugh, and think deeper. In our third pet peeves episode, the Literacy Talks team—Stacy, Donell, and Lindsay—sound off on persistent myths, misplaced blame, phonics fluff, and why reading will never be obsolete. With listener submissions in the mix, this candid conversation is part venting session, part professional reflection. If you’ve ever cringed at a reading log or been told teachers are the problem (spoiler alert: they’re not), this one’s for you.

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Episode Transcript

Narrator (00:03):
Welcome to literacy talks, the podcast for literacy
leaders and championseverywhere, brought to you by
Reading Horizons. Literacy talksis the place to discover new
ideas, trends, insights andpractical strategies for helping
all learners reach readingproficiency. Our hosts are Stacy
Hurst, a professor at SouthernUtah University and Chief

(00:27):
Academic Advisor for ReadingHorizons. Donell Pons, a
recognized expert and advocatein literacy, dyslexia and
special education, and LindsayKemeny, an elementary classroom
teacher, author and speaker. Nowlet's talk literacy.

Stacy Hurst (00:47):
Welcome to this episode of literacy Talks. My
name is Stacy Hurst, and I'mjoined by Lindsay Kemeny and
Donell Pons, and if you're notwatching the video of this, then
you don't see that I'm smilingbecause this is one of our
favorite topics. We have oneevery season. It's all thanks to

(01:08):
Lindsay. And so this is noexception. We're going to let
her introduce the topic. Thoseof you have been listening for a
while can probably already guesswhat it is, but I'm looking
forward to the conversationLindsay. What are we going to be
talking

Lindsay Kemeny (01:20):
about, yay.
We're going to be sharing ourpet peeves, our pet peeves in,
you know, specifically,literacy, anything teaching
literacy related in this space,the science of reading, you
know, this space that we're in,it's so fun, I think because,
you know, we get a variety oftopics to chat about in like,
one episode, and we all can letoff a little steam. It feels

(01:45):
good. And this today is fun,because we also have some
listeners who contributed theirpet peeves, and so we'll share
some of those as well. And so Ithink what we'll do is Stacy,
we're going to start with you,and I think, you know, we'll
each just share a pet peeve, andwe can get reactions. And so

(02:08):
we'll go Stacy, and then Donell,and then me, and then we'll do a
viewer, and then we'll justcircle around a few times. Okay,
so you get to get up on yoursoapbox.

Stacy Hurst (02:22):
Great, here I go.
Big step up. This actually wasbrought to my attention again
the other day as I walked into aclassroom that I was preparing
to teach in my classroom. But ofcourse, in university setting,
there's another class beforemine, and the professor was
telling the students that in thevery near future, we won't need

(02:43):
to know how to read. Readingwill be obsolete. And he invited
me graciously to debate him. AndI thought, okay, there's a few
pet peeves examined. There a I'mnot in the mood to debate, like
I have other things to focus on,I generally try to avoid that if

(03:04):
I can, but also that readingwill be obsolete with technology
as it is. And I want to say,what do you think is informing
the technology we were only assmart as we the knowledge we
have, and right now, the way wecan access knowledge into the
past is through print, right?

(03:28):
That's the way it becomesimmortal. In a sense. I don't
even have as much confidence invideo files like there. We don't
know if they're going to bearound in 20, 3040, 100 years,
right? But print is actuallytangible and can be preserved.
So I don't know, what do youguys think about that it was it
was annoying.

Lindsay Kemeny (03:48):
That's the most ridiculous thing. I think I have
heard. I have never heard thatbefore. I don't know why someone
would think that. I mean, thinkabout just like jotting down a
note or giving a birthdaypresent to someone, and you need
to write who it's to or from onthe tag. You know what I mean?
Like, I mean, and it's so muchfaster to read something or skim

(04:08):
something than have to listen tosomething. So I assume that's
why he's he's saying thatbecause what you're just going
to do, like, speech to text,text to speech all the time.

Stacy Hurst (04:16):
But I mean, still about speed, yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Kemeny (04:20):
And even when you're on, like, on technology,
you're like, on your phone,you're looking at social media,
you're not having every commentread to you that take forever.
You're reading them.

Unknown (04:30):
So that's yeah.

Stacy Hurst (04:33):
And he was saying he was comparing reading as a
technology. Said it's a newtechnology, relatively speaking.
And so technologies come and go,and I'm like, I don't know about
that one. Donell, were youready? Yeah, I don't

Donell Pons (04:46):
know about this one. And I don't know if he's
ever read a history of readingby Alberto Manuel, because
that's a pretty darn goodargument for the fact that it's
not going anywhere anytime soon.
He does a really fed. Fantasticjob with it in that book. So if
you've ever read it, giveyourself a treat a history of
reading. It's just a beautifulit's a it's a well thought out
love letter to reading. But morethan that, it also gets into the

(05:11):
history of it. That is reallyfascinating, that someone would
say that, because think of whatyou gain, Lindsay, you hit on a
few of the positives of reading,but think of all that you gain
when you are quietly and we knowthis quietly to yourself with
your own thoughts, readingsomething and having an

(05:32):
experience with it. On thatlevel, nothing else replicates
that experience. And imaginewhat we would lose. I just think
it's really fascinating.

Stacy Hurst (05:45):
Yeah, so thanks for starting with me. That been
bothering me for a while,

Lindsay Kemeny (05:49):
and see how that would bother you. And I it just
be like, how do you debate that?
Because you're like, it justseems so ludicrous.

Stacy Hurst (05:55):
And he was telling college students this too, and
that's where it was like, Oh,dude, the last

Donell Pons (06:01):
thing they need to hear.

Lindsay Kemeny (06:02):
I mean, reading and write, writing, the writing
system is, I can see how he'ssaying, it's a technology, yeah,
it is an invention. And, and,you know, we've talked about
that relatively recent, youknow, as Emily Hanford, kind of
Pons out, but it's not goingaway, yeah?

Donell Pons (06:19):
All right, Donell, all right, geez, I have a pet
peeve. With that pet peeve, canwe do that? Pile on to a pet
peeve? Totally. Okay. I do thisone almost every time, but it's
still at the top of my list. Ihave a list, and I go, Oh, dude,
do I do the same one again atthe top of my list? Until it's

(06:40):
not a thing. It will be at thetop of my list. Why are we still
here? And that's the one I doall the time, is, after all this
work and effort and energy, whyare we still here, and what is
the why are we still here? Whyam I still having conversations
with teachers who don't have aclue about how we really teach

(07:01):
reading to students. Why is thatstill a thing? Why do I still
have people fighting back aboutwhat's dyslexia? I didn't think
that was really a thing. Why arewe still having Why am I still
having these conversations? AndI think I've said this before,
if we're doing such a crackerjack job, we've got this all
saw, you know, figured out. Whyare we still having these
conversations? Clearly, we don'thave it all figured out.

(07:23):
Clearly, we need to do morework. Clearly, we maybe need to
examine what we've been doing tosee if it's adequate. Anyway,
that's that's my top pet peeve.
I know Lindsay, you're stunned.

Lindsay Kemeny (07:35):
Well, there's a lot of things there, and I'm
just thinking it Yeah, I just

Unknown (07:46):
where I

Lindsay Kemeny (07:48):
don't know, I don't want to get into mine
quite yet. My pet peeve, quiteyet. But like, where, how do we
shift this, and why aren'tteachers getting the information
they need from the beginning?
And Stacy, maybe this goes toour universities and our teacher
prep programs.

Stacy Hurst (08:07):
Yeah, and I was thinking that too, and the word
that came to my mind as you weretalking Donell is Sisyphean,
right? Is that what this is? Orare we really making progress?
We just see how much progressthere is left to be made that
it's hard to focus on, or is ittwo steps forward or one step

(08:27):
back? You know what? What kindof progress are we making here?
And I would say, from a highered perspective, I see, I see
progress from what my studentsknow about reading and how they
apply it, but I also still hearvery much, especially in social
media, that they're pointingfingers at higher ed, right? And

(08:52):
I react to that because I'mlike, wait, some of us are doing
this, but then I have to stepback and think, but probably
many aren't.

Lindsay Kemeny (09:00):
Yeah. Like, what percentage are, yeah, yeah,

Stacy Hurst (09:03):
which is a great, yeah, that's a good one,

Lindsay Kemeny (09:06):
because I still think the majority of schools
are not following the principleswe talk about with the science
of reading. I I still thinkthat. So some people are saying,
Oh, look, the NAEP scores arestill terrible. Science of
Reading isn't working, and I'mlike, Whoa. Back up. First of

(09:28):
all, a lot of people are justbarely learning about it, so
they aren't sure how to apply ityet. Second, I think the
majority are still stuck in someold ineffective practices, and
that's like at the forefront,they're

Donell Pons (09:42):
not being supported, right? Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny (09:47):
okay, are we ready for mine? Yes, yes. This,
guys, this is going to be alittle bit of a rant. And I
have, like, my main point, and Ihave a few points, okay. Yeah,
but I'm doing it all as likethis one pet peeve. All right,
let's stop blaming teachers foreverything. The burden seems to

(10:12):
always be on the teacher. Andyou know, I hate in the news,
you'll see some headline thatare like, teachers are not
teaching reading the right way,or teachers are not teaching
reading comprehension the rightway, or whatever it is. And I'm
like, can we flip that, youknow? How about you know,
teachers are not being providedwith quality materials in their

(10:33):
schools, or districts aren'tproviding high quality materials
to their teachers. Or, you know,I just like, I feel like the
blame is always on the teacher.
It's interesting because, youknow, my latest book just came
out, rock your literacy block.
And I get the same question overand over in in that I go through

(10:55):
my day and explain my day, andpart of my day I call close
reading, which is where you'reworking more on the language
comprehension strands ofScarborough's Reading Room. So
the number one question I getis, what, what are the texts and
materials that you're using forclose reading? And they ask that

(11:15):
because they don't have aprogram. I come back and say,
Well, what's your core program?
Because that's what you use. AndI've, I've used different core
programs in my district. Mydistrict has always provided me
with a core program, and I usethat and as my base, and I can
adjust. And so I couldn'tbelieve, I mean, I still can't
believe how many don't haveanything, and that's, that's

(11:36):
just insane to me, because youknow, our job is to fly the
plane, not build it, and it'skind of like you're asking us to
build the plane while we'reflying it. And so too often, I
feel like teachers are notprovided with adequate programs,
or then even any program, andthen any weaknesses in our

(11:56):
programs, especially a lack of aprogram, become burdens for the
teacher. So that's a lot ofburdens. We have a lot of
burdens placed on us to make,you know, to make it work, and
then maybe we do have a program,but are we being provided with
training and support? If not,that's another burden on us for

(12:20):
how to figure that out. And thenI'm not done. There's a okay,
there's not research to informevery single part of our day. We
don't know exactly the best wayto do everything. So you know
that Steve dykstras bullseye,we're trying to get as close as

(12:41):
we can, but sometimes we're noton that bullseye, and we're
trying to figure out, you know,best practices and how to do
something that's reasonable andmake decisions in real time. So
and then there's this researchto practice gap. And whose job
is it to get us the researchthat we do know? Because that

(13:02):
burden can't be placed onteachers either, because we're
teaching all day and then andand, you know, if we're lucky,
we get lunch, but a lot of usare grading over lunch, and then
we come home and we're workingand we're grading. And so whose
job is it to translate theresearch, and even when they do,
it's not perfect, because a lotof researchers and experts can't

(13:26):
give us the really specificdetails we need for what that
looks like in the classroom andhow we should do that. And I
find that like the furtherremoved the researcher or expert
is from the classroom, the morelofty their ideas are, and they
can't really give us the nittygritty of what it looks like. So
that is my huge rant, like, it'snot perfect, but let's take some

(13:52):
blame off the teachers, becausewe have a lot of burdens.

Stacy Hurst (14:01):
Yeah, I think you touched a nerve with me too.
That is, it's been perpetuallyan issue. But, and I I know that
people get hesitant when wecompare teaching as a profession
to something like the medicalworld, but honestly, to me,
they're Of equal importance,right learning how to read in

(14:21):
our society, and, you know, justto have a high quality of life
is just as important as beinghealthy and well, I think it's
part of that. So when you weretalking about, we don't blame
doctors. We don't expect them tohave to create their own tools
or to find their own tools,right? They're supplied with

(14:42):
those, and many of those toolshave already been researched,
but it seems like teachers areleft on their own. It sounds
like that's amazing that you getthat question so much.

Donell Pons (14:53):
Okay, so I'm going to pile on to your pet peeve.
Here's another thing, Stacy, andit goes with the meta. Cool
thing that you're talking about,what I do find, too, and it just
annoys me to death, is that ifand when we decide that it would
be advisable for a teacher tohave say, additional education,

(15:14):
then it's on the teacher to gopay for it. And I've noticed
teachers have more lettersbehind their names than ever
today, because that's anotherway that we seem to then say,
Oh, I guess they're qualifiednow that they've done this
program and that program andthis program, and they've got
XYZ and infidium behind theirname there, do we think they're
qualified now that one's crazyto me. Would you expect a doctor

(15:36):
who has spent that much timetraining as a doctor to then go
back and prove over and over andover again that they're
qualified by getting additionalletters after their name. No,
you don't. The MD is sufficient.
That tells you that you trustthis individual. They've got the
training. We don't do that withteachers. It's getting to be
absolutely ridiculous, in myopinion, of how many letters a
teacher's got to have behindtheir name to say, Do you think

(15:57):
I'm qualified yet and stillwithin that they're not getting
the nitty gritty that they need,that we're talking about here.
We're still not getting to thatstuff that. Okay, so exactly
what do you want me doing fromnine to noon? Yeah, it's really
interesting.

Stacy Hurst (16:14):
Oh, the whole thing it because also it goes back
Lindsay, you've opened aPandora's box, but it goes back
to, I know I've shared this onebefore. Teacher pay like they
get those initials behind theirname. You're getting more money
up on the pay scale, but ittakes them years to compensate
for what it costs them to getthose. And then you don't know,

(16:35):
are they learning the thing thatreally will impact their
practice or not? And I thinkthat's frustrating, especially
so this is one of my previouspet peeves still happening
today, that teachers spend over400 hours that they don't get
paid for, on average per yearevery teacher that's
unacceptable, unacceptable.
Doctors don't do that. They getpaid for every little, tiny

(16:59):
thing I know, if you've ever hada hospital bill, yeah, then an
aspirin ends up costing $13Right?

Lindsay Kemeny (17:10):
Like, and then when I see people like,
nitpicking, what, what teachersdo where I'm like, you know, we
don't, we've got to make theseinformed decisions in the
moment. So, you know, you know,you hear different people
debating different things, andyou're like, Okay, I'm just
going to do a decision. I'mmaking a decision, and do it and
then it, you know, it's fine,like we always need to refine
our practices, but don't come onsocial media and scream at us in

(17:35):
all caps for something that youdon't like, that we're doing,
because guaranteed, I can findsomething that you do in your
day that doesn't have researchthat says to do it that exact
way, you know what I mean? Solike, be kind. And like, yeah,
we can all improve, but let's bekind because we're making, like,
a lot of decisions through thecourse of a day.

Unknown (17:54):
Understood, yep.

Lindsay Kemeny (17:59):
Okay, okay, let's go to a listener one.
Let's go to a listener petpeeve, and we'll do this one.
Someone said that their petpeeve is phonics, crafts, and
she said most of the time isspent cutting, gluing and

(18:21):
coloring, then the words areusually either just copied or
the kids can't even read them.
Then there's the whole idea thatphonics was just made, quote,
unquote, fun, but some of usfind regular routines and
learning fun and the crafts awaste of instructional time, so
any thoughts on that

Stacy Hurst (18:40):
immediately cut the fluff, teach this.

Lindsay Kemeny (18:45):
Yeah, I loved, I loved reading that. I was like,
Yes, I agree. Now I will say,like, if you are a pre K or
kindergarten teacher and youwant to do some kind of cut and
paste, and it's a letter A, andyou're going to have them cut
things that start with andthey're gonna glue it on like,
that is fine if your goal isfine motor. Do you know what I

(19:09):
mean? Don't just don't think ofthat as like, that's my that's
our phonics learning for theday, because they need, you
know, some explicit, directguided instruction with
feedback. But if you're like, Ineed a little fine motor
practice for my students. Ithappens to be a letter that's
okay, if your goal is the finemotor, right?

Stacy Hurst (19:28):
That's actually very smart, right? Fine Motor
Skills brought to you by theletter A you're supporting what
you're teaching it, hopefully inanother part of the day and
working on that important skillof fine motor, yeah.

Donell Pons (19:40):
And I just want to add to that that my son, who has
dyslexia, I want to count. I'mtrying to see if I can get them
all in my don't want to leaveany of them out. I think we had
five alphabet books that theyhad him put together because he
has dyslexia, and I think he wasputting them together clear
until fifth grade. He. Becausesomewhere along the way, thought

(20:01):
that was a fantastic thing forsomeone who has dyslexia, that
he needed to cut out all kindsof pictures from magazines that
started with the letter A mindyour sounds were never
discussed. Things that he reallyneeded were never even talked
about. So I like that you pointout maybe it's a fine motor
thing for a first grader, but ifthat's something you're going to
even in the older grades. Youreally need to rethink that,

(20:23):
because, as Lindsay pointed out,is there a point to it on
another way in which a childmight be learning a skill, and
that's great reinforcingsomething, but again, we need to
be teaching them what they needto know about reading.

Lindsay Kemeny (20:33):
Yeah, that's a great one. And you know, you
know, I've actually seen wherestudents who are going to
resources special education, andthey're cutting and gluing in
there, and you know, their IEPis all about reading, right?
That's a huge red flag. If yousee that you should be like,

(20:54):
they should not be wasting theirtime cutting and gluing in an
intervention space. They need tobe doing the thing, which is
reading and writing. Yeah, okay,Stacy, we're back to you. What's
your

Stacy Hurst (21:04):
next? You could not have queued up my next one any
better. In fact, I was like,which one do I choose? Which one
do I choose? And you just madethe decision for me. Now, this
has always been a pet peeve, butI haven't quite been able to
contextualize it thoroughly, soI don't say enough about it, I
think. But when I attendedtriple Sr, I found some more

(21:29):
research that highlights thisproblem, and it was teacher
knowledge research. And theythey gave a survey to many
teachers. They found that theleast the ones who, I will put
it this way as to not rufflefeathers, the type of teacher
that scored the lowestperpetually were the ones who

(21:54):
are delivering intervention. Sowe're talking about knowledge of
the basic constructs of English,right? And in my own state, our
students are required to takethe Foundations of Reading Test.
And it not all, not always thecase, but students who are some

(22:18):
students who are getting aspecial ed degree are also
scoring in that lower one of thelower lower than maybe, say,
general ed teachers are. So Ithink that I'm not frustrated
the people involved in thosesituations. I'm frustrated at
the system. What in the systemcan we do to make sure that

(22:41):
those two scenarios arecommunicating well with each
other and Donell, you gave theexample of your son doing
alphabet books in fifth grade,how can we support our special
educators and paraprofessionalsand whoever is delivering that
intervention to communicate Withthe general ed, hopefully
knowledgeable general ed teacherand really maximize and

(23:04):
accelerate learning for thestudents they're working with.

Donell Pons (23:09):
Okay, I just had a conversation with someone this
weekend who is aninterventionist working in a
high school setting, and acouple of things that were
brought up in the conversationjust made me shudder. But I'm
thinking this still, this ishappening, so I need this is a
good thing to be talking about.
First of all, theinterventionist didn't get any

(23:29):
special training at all in howto help students with reading or
writing. Has had none. Maybesome of the teachers have had a
little Am I just a high schoolsetting? So I'm telling you,
that was my pet peeve. Numberone, right? Is that we might be
jumping on k3 but boy, are weleaving Middle and High School
adrift. And there are studentswho could use help, and we still
have time to help them. Sohere's this intervention. Who's
interventionist, who's beentasked to help this student

(23:52):
who's clearly behind in readingand writing, yet has not any
training, trying to do theirbest, reaching out,
understanding that there's,there's a proper way to do this.
I'd really like to know more.
Zero training offered. A teachergets offered some training, goes
off to training comes back andwon't share with the
interventionist. No, no. This ismy this is the thing that I've

(24:13):
been trained. So that's anotherthing. Is we need to be willing
to help each other, to lift alleverybody, lift everybody back
at your site. So there's thetraining that's not being
offered to individual who'sspending the most time with the
most time with the studentthat's this interventionist.
You've passed the student off tothe interventionist, then you've
not given them any training ormaterials, and then, likewise,
we don't treat them likeprofessionals, because then any
information about an IEP is notshared with them because they're

(24:35):
not quote, the professional,they're not the teacher. Yet
you've made a choice to put thestudent with that individual,
and then you've tied their handsto do the best job that they can
to help the student. And I thinkwe need to have more of these
conversations. Stacy, it tiesright into what you just said
there. What have we done to helpthese individuals for success?

Stacy Hurst (24:53):
Right? Yes, and I know special educators are are
so skilled at things likebehavior. Or that. I think
general educators, you know,we're managing a whole class,
and yes, they're individuals,but we need help with that, so
we could learn from the specialeducators. But I always think
about Tim odegaardspresentations when he's talking

(25:16):
about the research. It's kind ofwhat comes first the chicken or
the egg, right? If you teachsomebody how to read and they
feel success there, it willimpact their behavior for the
better, and so maybe helpinghighlight and lift up that
research will help with thisissue too. But it's kind of
frustrating for me tocontinually see over and over

(25:38):
and over again.

Lindsay Kemeny (25:39):
You know, at one point I looked into like going
back to school and getting aspecial ed degree. And I
remember when I was looking atthe classes, it was all special
ed law and behaviors there.
There wasn't anything reallyspecific to literacy that I
remember. And so, you know,that's a huge problem right

(26:03):
there. So we need to back up andlook at how we're, you know,
training them in the firstplace. And then I just have to
say, you know, I love Texas. Iseem to go to Texas a lot, and
I'm so impressed, because theyhave dyslexia interventionists
at every school. It's reallyimpressive. And I'm like, That

(26:25):
is awesome. So they're doing alot to make sure that they have
some trained interventionists attheir schools. And Lindsay,

Donell Pons (26:34):
I agree with you about Texas, because even in
settings, because I met a coupleof interventionists from Texas
just about a year ago at Idaconference. We were in Texas,
and they were new, new to thejob, so they were learning as
they were, as they were doingthe job. But even just having
the title is so empowering,because I'm a dyslexia
interventionist, so I can sayand talk about and ask for

(26:55):
resources for students that weconsider have dyslexia, and also
those that a teacher might beconsidering, does this student?
Do they qualify? And thoseconversations are out in the
open. Just having an individualin your building, and I love the
enthusiasm from the twoeducators that been in
traditional classrooms,mainstream classrooms, to begin
with, and then had moved intothis position so they understood

(27:15):
the Kate the school and how itworked. I just thought it was
fantastic, but just even havingthe title was very empowering.

Narrator (27:22):
Yeah. Interested in diving deeper into today's
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(27:45):
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(28:06):
horizons.com. Join the Scienceof reading collective today and
be part of a movement that'seradicating illiteracy. That's
collective dot readinghorizons.com.

Lindsay Kemeny (28:18):
Okay, are we to you? Donell, was that yours?
Stacy? That was your pet. It wasokay, yeah, so Donell.

Donell Pons (28:25):
Donell has been tagging on to everybody today.
Oh gosh, you guys. I'm lookingat my list, and I'm going, we've
pretty much touched that. If youever want

Lindsay Kemeny (28:37):
to skip, we can put in a listener one instead of
yours, if you don't have one so

Donell Pons (28:41):
well, my number three, I'll jump to my number
three. Pretty much did my numbertwo. Are we really screening for
reading difficulties? Are we?
Because I still talk to peopleacross the country, and it's
like, let me look up your stateand just see if there's
mandatory screening. Yep,there's mandatory screening in
your state. There is well, sowhat are you doing at your

(29:02):
school? So yes, this is still asticky widget. We it's talked
about people act like it. Wegather data, or they're
gathering data. We're doing thetesting, but I don't know that
we're treating it like a truescreener. Are we really? Is that
what we're really doing? Are wetreating this information like
it's truly screening for readingdifficulties, because if we were

(29:22):
then what we did would lookdifferent. I think so

Lindsay Kemeny (29:29):
the data. You have to do something with it,
otherwise, the whole thing was awaste of time. Yes, don't make
the assessment a waste of time.
Use it.

Unknown (29:38):
Yes, yeah.

Stacy Hurst (29:39):
What is the next step? Right? Are they die? Are
they doing a diagnostic? Is thatrequire? How I imagine it would
be right? And then what? Yeah,all good questions. Also, we've
talked about this before,multiple times on our podcast,
especially when we did the IDAperspectives. Season, are we

(30:02):
screening for language in theway we should be? I know they're
language screeners, but they'recertainly not as frequent.

Donell Pons (30:12):
Well, that's just it. Stacy when we start having
more conversations in Lindsay,we've been we've all chatted
about this that thankfully,we're having more conversations
about language and overall. Sooral language, how much earlier
can we get in and start? But ifwe're still struggling to screen
for reading difficulties

Stacy Hurst (30:29):
or even to communicate, it right? Like I
was talking to a teacher a fewweeks ago. She was telling me
about a student she hasstruggles, and I was asking
about his Acadian scores. That'swhat we use in our state. And
then I said, Has he had anylanguage screening? And this is
the classroom teacher. And shesaid, yeah, yeah, I'm sure,

(30:50):
because I think our speech andlanguage pathologist tests every
kid. And I said, Okay, how didhe do? I don't know. I'd have to
go ask, like the teachers don'thave that readily available to
them. Maybe, I mean, that was ann of one, but I don't think
that's uncommon. I certainlydidn't know when my students got

(31:13):
tested, unless the parents saidsomething,

Lindsay Kemeny (31:17):
what is the quality like? Make sure we have
assessments that have been shownto be valid and reliable, that
are easy to administer. Youknow, that's why I love that we
use a cadence, like my wholestate uses a cadence. I like
hope that doesn't change,because there's so much research
behind it. I love it. So stepone, if you're a district

(31:40):
leader, is to make sure you havea high quality, a good screener,
and you don't need likesometimes people are testing to
death because they have severaldifferent assessments that are
measuring the same thing. So youmight need to pare those down.
Number two, do the teachersunderstand the purpose of the
assessment and what thedifferent components are

(32:00):
showing, you know, I just heardnot long ago, people talking
about, well, they're fine, likethey did fine on words, correct
per minute, but the nonsensewords was terrible, but, but
they're like, but they werereading fluently. So, yeah, it's
like those that is a red flag,and those kids can just slip

(32:22):
through the cracks. You've gotto watch those kids, because
there is a good chance that theyhave memorized a lot of words
and are guessing from context.
You got to solidify those phonicskills, right? So just like the
little things, it took me awhile to understand the
components of a cadence, andeven now, sometimes I'm learning
like, Oh, how did they come upwith that composite score? And
I'm, you know, there's like morethings, but So step one, get a

(32:44):
quality a Cain dance or not. Geta quality screener. Number two,
make sure everyone knows thepurpose and what it means. And
number three, make sure youteach them what to do next,
right? Then, what do they dowith the data?

Stacy Hurst (33:01):
Yes, and you know what, when our state Lindsay,
we're in the same state, all ofus are. We started, they started
requiring dibbles, right? And Iwas at the forefront of that. As
a literacy coach, I had to trainthe teachers. I got extensive
training on that. It is veryresearch backed, and our
teachers would say, Oh, we justhave to do this for the state.

(33:23):
We just that was theirrationale, not any fault of
their own. That's what wascommunicated. In some cases,
it's just something you have todo. And then they would get
frustrated when that was theiraccountability in their mind.
And then they were like, well,what do I do? Like, what do I
do? I have half my class that'sscoring in the red area. What do

(33:43):
I do? You know? So, yeah, makingsure they're supported in that
exactly.

Lindsay Kemeny (33:49):
And that's and, yeah, and understanding that
purpose. Because that was me, itwas like, you know, if someone
is sitting there saying nonsenseword fluency test is a waste of
time, they don't understand thepurpose of it. So you've got to
make sure they understand thepurpose. There is a purpose.
Okay, um, okay, so we're to me,and one of my pet peeves is

(34:11):
adult egos. And we're all alittle guilty of this, I'm sure,
like, you know, but like, andspecifically adult egos that get
in the way of learning, eitherthe learning of the person
themselves, the learning ofanother teacher or the students.
So somehow that adult ego iscausing a barrier. And just kind

(34:36):
of a funny example, I was inthis happened a little while
ago. I was in a social mediagroup, and someone was asking,
you know, about a question ofblend words with blends Okay, or
consonant clusters, whatever youcall it, where there's two
consonants right close togetherbefore or after the vowel. And

(34:57):
she was asking if it was onesound. Sound, or two sounds, the
blend. We know blends are twosounds, so you think of St, it
is two separate sounds, but theydo glide together so easily,
which is it's hard to pull itapart, which is why students
sometimes struggle when they'respelling with words, with blends

(35:18):
or with the reading. Now, it'susually like four sounds, so
that's going to be a little moredifficult, but it's clearly two
sounds. So this lady gets on thesocial media group is just like,
it is only one sound, you know,and goes off on this little
tangent of why it's only onesound. K, she's clearly wrong.
And someone very politelyreplies to her and is like, it's

(35:40):
actually two sounds. And, youknow, does an explanation, and
this lady comes back and putsher name and lists all her
letters, you know, behind hername. And she's like, I am, you
know, this, this, this, ogcertified this. And it is one
sound, her ego is getting in theway of learning, right? It

(36:05):
doesn't matter how many lettersbehind your name you have. It
doesn't necessarily mean you'resmarter than everybody else. And
there was these other people inthe group that were so nicely
and gently trying to teach herthat it is two sounds, and she
refused. And so, you know, inthat case, her own ego is

(36:27):
getting in the way of her ownlearning. So I just think it
illustrates it. But you know,you see it all the time.

Donell Pons (36:34):
What's so interesting is any definition of
a blend would have given her theright information. It's just
astounding that she was so offtrack. That's super interesting.
You know, one of the things Ithink about teaching, and you
guys tell me if what you guysthink about this too, but I've
thought about this often inteaching, oftentimes it's almost

(36:56):
as if you're expected to knowsomething about absolutely
everything sometimes, andinstead, in teaching, I often
have to remind you don't knoweverything there is to know
about everything. You do know alot about very specific things.

(37:16):
And because you're a goodteacher, you're not averse to
finding out those things thatyou may be asked or maybe you
say, oh, wait a minute. That's agood question. I don't know, to
me, that's the best modeling ateacher can do. That's the best
teaching is to say, Wait aminute. Hmm, I'm not quite sure.
Let's, let's look that up. Let'ssee. Why did we lose that?

(37:39):
That's really interesting.
Clearly she had lost that.
Because if you had that, shewould say, oh, please explain to
me why you think it's twosounds. I've not heard that.
I've heard it's one or I've beentaught. And she could share
where she got it from. Do yousee how different that looks if
you're saying you're modeling?
Because to me, that's good.
Teaching is modeling for yourstudent. If I don't know, what

(38:00):
do I do next? That's sointeresting to me, and I can

Lindsay Kemeny (38:04):
see how it's hard, like, it's hard for all of
us sometimes to be like, Wait,am I wrong, right? Or just, is
there a better way to do it? Butwe have to, like, learn somehow
to check ourselves and get,yeah, get over that, right?
Yeah.

Stacy Hurst (38:19):
I'm having a little bit of I don't know, I don't
even know what you would callit, but as I have the
opportunity to help create a newclass at our university, I'm
being reminded of my owndeficiencies in my pre service
training, specifically relatedto things like syntax and

(38:39):
writing, and I don't like thatfeeling, I don't but I'm not
gonna fake that. I know you knowwhat I mean. I'm gonna take that
and like learn more and improvemy knowledge and practice. And
that we've said it many times onthis podcast, is teachers were
learners first and Donell, youmake a good point. Let's be
explicit about modeling that forour students? Yeah, that's a

(39:03):
good one, too, Lindsay,

Lindsay Kemeny (39:04):
and it's okay not to know everything we can
tell them. And, you know,sometimes will, someone will ask
me something, and I'll say,that's not my area of expertise,
you know, like, they'll asksomething about, like, pre K,
and I'm like, That's not, youknow, I haven't done a ton of
research into that, and I'llclarify that, and then say, This
is what I, you know, this iswhat I'm thinking right now. But

(39:28):
you need to know that that isnot my area, you know, like, so
I think it's kind of good toclarify. But I love, you know, I
get questions a lot, and I lovethat, because it really makes me
think about what I'm doing. Andsometimes when I have to explain
how I do something in theclassroom to someone else, it

(39:50):
like, really solidifies it forme. Like, recently, people were
asking, you know, like, how youdeal with your writing lessons,
when some. Students are takingso much longer than others, and
how do you kind of keep everyonetogether if you're
collaboratively writingsomething together? And I so
appreciated thinking about that,because really, when I thought

(40:11):
about it, I'm like, there'sreally only two reasons why
students would be slower thanthe others. One, they have an
attention problem, okay, well,if it's a tension problem, it's
easy. I just got to remind them.
I sit them in the front. I'mchecking if they're with me, and
two, they forget how to form theletters. Okay, I could do that

(40:32):
too. I can use my verbalizationsthat we do with handwriting to
say how it's formed, and thatcues them into how to form it,
you know? So I'm just like, Ireally think those are the only
two reasons right now. And sothat just helps you now in my
classroom, because I'm justthinking, like, if someone's
getting behind, which reason isit? And what can I do anyway? So

(40:52):
yeah, and anytime I've everthought I knew everything about
something, and like, went to aclass and thought I knew about
it. I always learned something,always something to learn. Okay,
here's our next listener one.
This person said this is theirpet peeve, limiting an end. I

(41:13):
will say this is fun, because Ithink I shared this like maybe
our first season. This was mypet peeve that I shared,
limiting students independent orpersonal reading choices based
on grade level, slash abilitylevel. I had a very advanced
reader who loved reading Piggyand elephant books in first

(41:34):
grade during centers. A lot ofpeople, including her parent,
discouraged me from allowing herto read them during choice time,
because she was advanced. Thiswas her choice time. I was
challenging her in other ways.
When else was she going to beable to read those books that
she clearly loved? 100% I agreewith this, like that is

(41:55):
completely appropriate. Theywant to read the piggy and
elephant books. Let them do it.
And in that other season, Ishared my own son, who I think
he was in fifth grade, and hewanted to read these Diary of a
Minecraft zombie books. There'sthese chapter books, and they're
like a million of them, andthey're really they're easy, and

(42:16):
my son was really advanced. Andso this is a different son than
my one who has dyslexia, so, youknow, he could read more like on
a seventh grade level. Books ona seventh grade level were not
appropriate for him to bereading. They had a little more,
you know, content. And like, hewanted to read those books, his
teacher did not want him to readthose books. And she said, and

(42:38):
she did this thing where shewould track the number of pages,
and you got Pons and all thisstuff. She said she wouldn't,
she wouldn't count any of thepages that he read from those
books. And I was like, Well, Iand I told him, you can. And
this was home reading, okay,this is what he was reading at
home. And I like, there's no wayI was going to tell my son he

(42:59):
can't read those. I was like,you go ahead and read those.
That was his interest level. I'mgetting

Stacy Hurst (43:05):
some insight because I've also shared on this
podcast at the beginning ofevery semester, I asked the five
books that have impacted yourlife the most essay for my
students, and more and more, Iam getting students who only
share children's books becausethat's the last time they read a
book, or they have fondmemories, that kind of practice

(43:26):
will kill the joy of reading. Soyou're limiting the books that
can impact your life if you'rebeing limited in whatever you
choose. And inversely, I've hadstudents. I had a first grader.
I still can picture his durablelittle red head during our
independent read aloud time. Itwas read aloud in first grade.

(43:47):
He was re he was working throughHarry Potter. He was in one of
my lower reading groups. Butthat kid had stamina. I'm not
going to take that book out ofhis hand. He was actually
reading. He was actually workingthrough it. He wasn't just
faking it because he wanted tolook cool. And why would I say
you can't do that, right?

Donell Pons (44:06):
Oh, it reminds me of a book called the rights of
the reader. Daniel penac orpennak. He's French, and it's a
fantastic little book. It's notvery big the rights of the
reader, but he puts together alist of the rights of the
reader, and one of them is yourchoice. You get to have your
choice when you're reading, andit's a delightful book, but it

(44:28):
is about giving choice back tothe reader, and that maintains
that joy of reading. You need tobe able to choose what you want
to read. And I was just theother day cleaning out my
shelves because I've gotten tothat stage in life when I don't
need all this stuff that I'vegot in the shelves and pulling
and boy, it's a wide variety ofbooks, but I loved that as I'm
pulling him off the shelf,thinking to myself that I had

(44:51):
four kids with very differentideas about what they wanted to
read. I didn't say to them, Oh,I really enjoyed this one, so
you've got to enjoy it, or yourbrother really liked this one,
so you're going to read it.
Yeah, it's what do they want toread? Yeah, what do you want to
read?

Lindsay Kemeny (45:04):
Okay, let's go around one more time and just
share one more. And then my lastone is very short, so one more,
and then we'll be done at atime,

Stacy Hurst (45:13):
okay? And I'll be short on this one too, but it
has to do with research topractice. We said it when we had
Dr Jake downs on here, I feellike that door should swing both
ways. But the frustrating thingso here's where my Peeve comes
in. It's hard for schools toactually participate in the type

(45:34):
of research that we need to showwhat is impactful for students,
because they have to be randomlycontrolled, right? So I there's
got to be a way. There's a Peevelike, let's fix that sooner than
later so we can get theresearch. We need to help
anybody learn how to read. And Idon't even know who to like.

(45:55):
There's, it's just systemic,right? We need to see what we
can do about that.

Lindsay Kemeny (46:00):
Need more implementation science, right?

Unknown (46:04):
Yeah, yeah, all kinds, yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny (46:09):
okay, good, yep.
There's still more. There's alot we need our researchers, and
there's a lot of work to dothere. Okay, Donell Do you have
a final one. It just

Donell Pons (46:19):
leans into all of these, and I think we've
mentioned it before, is dykstrasbullseye, that one keeps coming
to me. He it's been a while ago.
And Lindsay, you even tried topinpoint the timeframes to where
you might maybe we first allheard it first. But why are we
still so averse to thatuncomfortable space, right? And
Stacy, you brought up, well,let's just kind of look at, how
can we get into schools and makethis happen maybe a little

(46:40):
better. And why is it sodifficult? But that seems to
just be really tough space, andI hate to see sort of a
divisiveness, and that's maybeI'm hitting on it, maybe,
perhaps, but we take thesestands on things, and I hate to
see that in this space, becausethat that we can't have, that
we've got to still be we cantalk about these things. We can
work our way through it. Andlike Dykstra said, This is what

(47:00):
we know. This is maybe what wedon't know. But we're trying to,
we're trying to stay close, andI'd like to see us stay
flexible, malleable learnerswithin this space, because
that'll be our saving grace, isthe fact that we as teachers
were learners first.

Lindsay Kemeny (47:15):
Yeah, yeah. Any, any comments on that Stacy
before I move on? No.

Stacy Hurst (47:23):
Just Ditto. Yeah.

Lindsay Kemeny (47:25):
Okay. My last one is the term like, it really
is my pet peeve. When people usethe term like, brain friendly,
or these are, like, brain basedstrategies, or this program is
brain based, or, you know,versus what, like, what other
people's aren't like, Isn'teverything to do with learning

(47:46):
brain based or brain friendly.
Like, what is that? Why are weusing that?

Stacy Hurst (47:51):
Okay, that's really funny. I have never thought of
that, but you're right. Like, wedon't have, this is elbow based.
This is that

Lindsay Kemeny (48:03):
one's brain based, that program. Or I'm
gonna go, I'm gonna go to that,you know. PD, because they're
talking about brain friendlystrategies.

Donell Pons (48:14):
Or Lindsay, even the tag that says brain moment,
you know. And then they're doingit well, were you seeing your
brain the whole time? Yes, I'mwith you.

Stacy Hurst (48:22):
Should we just start, every time we see that on
social media, start saying, I'mlooking for a good kidney based
program. Have you guys seen oneof

Lindsay Kemeny (48:30):
those, something that's not brain based?

Unknown (48:36):
Okay, that's funny.

Lindsay Kemeny (48:38):
And then the last listener, one is about
reading logs, and this is whatthe person said. They said, My
child loved to read until hisfifth grade teacher made him
write about what he read everynight he never loved reading
after that year. And then, likeanother, like this, person had

(49:01):
said reading logs, and thenseveral people had chimed in
underneath another person chimedin. This is my pet peeve as a
mom. It made reading a torturouschore for my dyslexic kids.
Reading was hard enough,tracking number pages and
writing a daily summary wastorture.

Unknown (49:18):
So

Lindsay Kemeny (49:19):
yeah, I can agree. I had a son who, you
know, every one year, everyyear, as soon as they finished,
not every year, every time theyfinished a book, they had to
write a book report. Well, guesswho doesn't want to read a book?
Yeah, no. So there's

Stacy Hurst (49:37):
got to be a better way, right? Like, think about we
are proficient readers. Thinkabout all that we read in a
year. I certainly I have hadgood intentions some years,
like, I'm gonna write down everybook I read. I don't do it for
longer than three books, maybe.
But there are other ways to showwhat you've read, right that
aren't so arduous. Like, whathave you learned? Learned, or

(49:59):
how would you communicate? Youknow, what did you enjoy the
best out of the things you readthis year? Those kind of
questions, I think would bebetter.

Donell Pons (50:11):
And, you know, I always had a pet peeve with this
too, because you can saywhatever you want on there the
teacher, they know that, right?
So sometimes kids were justfilling them out, and the kids
were, who were, it wasinteresting to me, were more
proficient as readers wouldoftentimes just do that because
they could where the poordyslexic kid, as you're saying,
isn't gonna be able to make thatup. It's gonna be hard enough as
it is. And so I had a chat with,a conversation with one of the

(50:33):
teachers, and we came up with aplan, and it can't it, I don't
know, maybe we can think ofsomething, but they work for us.
That the teacher was like, well,then, as a parent, you're the
one who's driving this certainlyin the first, second and third
grade. How about a comment fromyou each night to make sure that
it's happening? I'd love that.
So if you say, Oh yeah, we didthe 30 minutes, and this is the
you can do that, teacher said,that's great, because you're

(50:53):
really the verifier of, is itreally happening? And if I know
that you've written on there,then I know what's happening.
The other thing is, she says,What does your son do when
you're reading? Well, hedoodles, attach the doodle
pages. That's fine. I said, thisis what he did for 30 minutes
while we read data. So, I mean,it's things like that, yeah, we
get the idea,

Lindsay Kemeny (51:10):
yeah. Like, I'm like, well, technically, I guess
I sort of have a reading log,not like what they're describing
here. But I sent home two tothree decodable books on Monday.
They return them on Friday, andI just have a little tracker for
the parent that lists thetitles. The parent just has to
put their initials by the titleso that I know they've read that

(51:31):
book and I can give them a newbook. So can I say something
else? Yeah, it's just aninitial, and the kid doesn't
have to do anything except readthe book, right?

Stacy Hurst (51:40):
But Lindsay, here's what I want to say, you also
ensure in your classroom thatevery student is reading 20 to
30 minutes a day. Your studentsget that 20 to 30 minutes in
class. Yeah. And I think a bigthing, in fact, when that
initiative started in our state,it was from a governor's wife,

(52:01):
and she knew the research, soshe was like kids who read 20
minutes a day, you know? And Ithink that was the way the
system shifted thatresponsibility to parents, and
so those logs became critical,right? I think as a teacher, my
challenge would be to you, and Idid. I did that. I did that. In

(52:22):
my classroom, my students readat least 20 minutes a day, out
loud, individually, everystudent, I could guarantee it,
but ensure that work that in asa teacher that's going to give
you bigger gains than mostthings.

Lindsay Kemeny (52:36):
Yeah, and just to clarify for those who are
listening that Stacy when shewas saying that she doesn't mean
that I'm having kids just readfor 20 to 30 minutes, right?
Yeah, but we're saying, like,okay, as part of our phonics
lesson. And we are, you know,maybe choral coral reading, you
know, the Decodable maybe thatwas like 10 minutes in close

(52:59):
reading. In our close readinglesson, we have a text that they
might be partner reading, andthat was 10 minutes. And then in
our small group, you know, theyare, they are reading and and
you know, for at least 10minutes where they're actually
reading out loud the words, andI'm giving them feedback. So
then that's 30 minutes. Sothere's so much practice in the

(53:19):
classroom that, you know, if Ihave a child whose parents or
caregivers can't read with themat home, it's not like I'm so
dependent on that for theirpractice, because we've had a
lot of instruction practice inthe classroom right exactly home
is is extra.

Stacy Hurst (53:39):
So, yeah, we have technology too, and maybe I'm
giving somebody a multi milliondollar idea, but what if parents
just recorded their studentsdoing that reading at home, and
the program did all the data,right? They read this many
pages, this many words, youknow, I don't know. I don't
know. I do teachers need to

Lindsay Kemeny (53:59):
know that level of detail.

Stacy Hurst (54:00):
Yeah, I know that's my point. If it's just like, Oh
well, that's my point, then justsend the information to the
teacher or whatever. But if thatis their need, if they're trying
to ensure that students get 20minutes a day, the best thing to
do would be to work it into yourdaily schedule. And I know I'm
saying that, knowing teachershave a full schedule. But I

(54:21):
think what Lindsay said, and inmy experience, it's well worth
finding that time, you'll getthe payback, for sure,

Lindsay Kemeny (54:30):
always thinking about like I'm always thinking
in the course of the day, howmany minutes of practice are my
getting, my students getting?
So, yeah, go back to that. Makesure we're providing practice.
All right, we did it, you guys.
I that was really fun. Thanks tothe listeners who chimed in. I'm
sorry I don't have, didn't havetime to share all of your great
ones, but it was fun to havethem contribute this time,

(54:53):
right? We'll have to do thatagain.

Stacy Hurst (54:55):
I do love that this has become something we do every
season. So. So we can save thoselistener comments. As you have
pet peeves throughout the year,feel free to send them to us,
and we'll bank them and we'llput them in our episode for next
season. Thank you all forlistening, and we hope you join
us on the next episode ofliteracy talks.

Narrator (55:20):
Thanks for joining us today. Literacy talks comes to
you from Reading Horizons, whereliteracy momentum begins. Visit
reading horizons.com/literacy.
Talks to access episodes andresources to support your
journey in the science ofreading. You. Oh, I.