May 1, 2025 • 32 mins
As we wrap up Season 7 of Literacy Talks, we reflect on a powerful journey through the lens of the 75th Anniversary Issue of the International Dyslexia Association. In this special finale, hosts Stacy Hurst, Donell Pons, and Lindsay Kemeny revisit the insights, standout moments, and expert voices that shaped a season devoted entirely to Structured Literacy. From defining integration to honoring teacher-researcher collaboration, we explore what’s evolved, what endures, and what’s next in the science of reading.
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:03):
Welcome to literacy talks, the podcast for literacy
leaders and championseverywhere, brought to you by
Reading Horizons. Literacy talksis the place to discover new
ideas, trends, insights andpractical strategies for helping
all learners reach readingproficiency. Our hosts are Stacy
Hurst, a professor at SouthernUtah University and Chief
(00:27):
Academic Advisor for ReadingHorizons. Donell Pons, a
recognized expert and advocatein literacy, dyslexia and
special education, and LindsayKemeny, an elementary classroom
teacher, author and speaker. Nowlet's talk literacy.
(00:49):
Welcome to this episode ofliteracy talks. I'm Stacy Hurst
and I'm joined by Lindsay Kemenyand Donell Pons, and those of
you who've been listening thisseason know that we have been
focusing on the perspectives onlanguage and literacy. 75th
anniversary issue published bythe International Dyslexia
Association. And this episode,we are actually wrapping up this
(01:12):
season, so we have theopportunity to discuss the
things that we've learnedthroughout the from this
publication and throughout ourseason, and just talk about some
of the high points for us. We'vehad some fantastic guests, and
this is the first time we'vedone a theme for the whole
(01:33):
season, right? We've done someseries before, but this has been
a really unique thing for us,and I personally have loved it
Donell Lindsay, what are some ofyour your feelings about how
this season was? Itwas so fun to have a theme and
do something different thisseason. So I love it that we
could kind of dive deep intothis great issue. And I really
(01:55):
enjoyed the opportunity to kindof explore. And you know, it
forces me to kind of read moredeeply as I'm reading these
different articles. So Idefinitely appreciate the
opportunity and the discussionswe've had. Yeah,
Stacy Hurst (02:12):
done. Now, what did you think? Yeah,
Unknown (02:14):
I thought it was really fun to be able to look at
structured literacy again likethis, and to have each aspect
there was a really good expertor someone to comment on it, and
it was nice to pull those piecesapart, see the hole and pull it
apart. And it's nice to have, Ithink, a reevaluation, if you
will. So there were some folkswho are very familiar with
(02:34):
structured literacy. Haveprobably known the term and
followed folks for years. Andthere are others who may be new
to it, but so this, this newexamination, was nice, and then
to link that to some of the infograph or info map resources,
that idea is putting out thereas well, so that you can go to
the website, you can click on,as we've talked about before,
and we will again, you can clickon various aspects of structured
(02:57):
literacy in the info map and getadditional information and
Stacy. You pointed out manytimes they keep uploading, and
that's great, and so we'll keepchecking back to see what they
keep adding to that. So I thinkit was really nice that way, to
be able to explore everythingthat they're trying to put into
this and then re examinestructured literacy. Yeah,
and Donell, I think it go. Weshould acknowledge that this was
your idea, and we're glad thatyou had it, because for all the
(03:20):
same reasons. You guys said itgave us all a chance to kind of
refine, revisit and learn alittle bit more about it. I know
that right at the beginning ofthe the issue, it gives the
history of the term structuredliteracy, which I think is worth
noting, and I think it'simportant for those of us in
(03:43):
education to understand thathistory, the term is only been
in existence since 2014 butthere is something on page six
of the physical man, thephysical edition, that I thought
kind of summed up nicely how, IGuess we all should, should move
forward in this space aseducators. But they said, as
(04:05):
science, advanced idea evolved,as we evolved, our vision
sharpened. And I think that'swhat this season has helped me
to do, to sharpen my vision andunderstand that that evolution
that we've come through inregards to reading instruction.
Also new for our podcast is thefact that we have had more
(04:29):
guests this season than we havein the past, so we have a lot to
talk about. And just right offthe top of your heads, I guess,
did you guys have some memorablemoments for you this season,
I loved interviewing MargaretGoldberg, having her on she is,
(04:50):
you know, she's a friend of minebecause we met back in 2019 or I
think it was 2019 and I justrespect her so much. She. She is
working in the schools as aliteracy coach right now, and so
it's so interesting to hear herperspective and her day to day,
because she's living it. And Ilove hearing her story of how
(05:13):
she transitioned from balancedliteracy to, you know, kind of
doing these experiments in herclassroom and learning more
about structured literacy andthe science of reading. I just
think she's a wealth ofknowledge. So that that
interview definitely stands outfor me, but it's hard, it is
hard to pick just one. I'll letDonell go. But we had so many
(05:35):
amazing guests this season.
Yeah, we did. I think that's ahighlight for me. Would be all
of the guests, because I thinkeach one brought something very
interesting, unique perspective,as you say, Lindsay Margaret is
always a treasure. She's veryfun to listen to. She condenses
things down so well. Herpractical knowledge is so deep.
(05:57):
And so if you didn't get to hearthat one, I highly recommend.
And then David Hurford was onethat maybe a lot of folks are
not familiar with. The work ofDavid Hereford, and he's a
researcher. He's been at thisfor a long time, and he had a
lot of information to share. Itwas one of those interviews
where you don't reallyinterview, but rather he just
gives you the whole thing. Andit was great. We didn't want to
(06:18):
interrupt, and it wasinteresting, because I had
somebody email me after, whosaid I was delighted. I had
never heard of David Hurstbefore, but wow, what a wealth
of information. And he really isjust about all of the aspects of
trying to turn literacy around,because he's been involved in
it, of course, working withdifferent states on their
legislation. So he was able tobring that piece in, and then
also a little bit of history asto why he was interested in
(06:40):
studying this particular thing,which was interesting as well.
So I think that was aninteresting one for folks who
maybe aren't familiar with him.
And then again, Louise bearswirling, cannot say enough that
she's always so good atcondensing very difficult things
down into very understandablepieces. And she's also very good
at keeping track of what'sdifferent between structured
(07:01):
literacy and business as usualor a whole language model.
She's, she's one of the best atthat, I think, and that,
additionally, Kate Cain was newfor me. Anyway, I hadn't really
been very familiar with KateCain work coming out of a
different sort of, you know,university ecosystem. But very,
very interesting informationabout comprehension. So yeah, I
(07:21):
think there were a lot ofdifferent things this year that
were delightful. Theyare just such power houses in
this field. And I always lovelistening to them. I think
they're really dynamic speakers,and what an honor to have them
on.
And I think they're, they'retopic areas too, and Dr Cardenas
(07:45):
Hagan about teaching studentswho may not speak English as
their first language. And Ialways, I love this whole
structured literacy model, theinfo map, and it helps me
identify areas that I need tolearn more about. And I know I
have a list of things I want tocontinue to learn about based on
(08:05):
their work. I personally meetingLouise spear swirling was a
highlight of my career. I havedone so I've read so much of her
research before, even back whenI was more in the balance
literacy phase of my teaching,because that's all we knew. So
it was just delightful to have aconversation with her. And if
(08:28):
you've listened to the episode,you know how much she knows, and
the fact that we cannot overlookteacher knowledge that has got
to be center, front and centerprofessional development is
really important for what we'redoing, and I know that was kind
of came full circle consideringwhere I am in my career right
(08:49):
now. It really helped me go towork the next day, being even
more dedicated to making sure mypre service teachers know what
they need to know. And then, asfar as the the issue goes
itself. Did you guys have anyimportant takeaways that you
maybe refined your thinking oryou highlighted as something
(09:12):
interesting to you?
Oh, there's so many things I dowant to say. I really loved Kate
Cain article and her interview.
I wasn't able to be there. I wasteaching during that time, and
but listening to it, that is onethat I want to go back and
listen again. And I think I wantto read the article and then
(09:35):
listen to her again. But I lovedher article about how structured
literacy integratescomprehension and composition,
how important it's something wedon't talk about as as as often.
Maybe, I mean we do now, but,but okay, important takeaways to
(09:55):
your point, your questions.
Stacy. I hope that everyonetakes away that from all of
these articles that systematicand explicit instruction is the
most reliable method forteaching word reading and
comprehension. It talked aboutthat in one of the articles. I
(10:16):
think it was read lines andMargaret Goldberg's article. But
I just think, I hope, likecoming away from that that is a
big takeaway, and that readerssee that yes, because we still
get, I think so many in theschools are still thinking, Oh,
this discovery based, or, youknow, well, those, it's when we
(10:38):
do, when we lead our teachingwith a discovery based model.
We're leaving out so manystudents if they could discover
it than they would have already,right? And so just to give the
best chance for everyone is toteach them explicitly and
directly from the beginning. AndI just think that's that's it,
one of my huge takeaways.
I love that Lindsay. I thinkthat is key too. I'm going to
(11:00):
Yes, yes to that. And then addalso it was in the article by
Barbara Wilson, and that thatwas a rather extensive one,
because in Barbara's Wilson'sarticle, she went over the whole
thing in the map and tried togive us the overview. But within
that, there was something reallyinteresting. And it was, it was
a line that came out of therestructured literacy may include
a program to facilitate teachingcertain skills like word
(11:23):
recognition, spelling, etcetera, explicitly, like Lindsay
said, systematically, butsupported trained teachers drive
this is the important piece,guys that we talked about a lot,
the integration of instruction.
I mean, that was another keyword that kept coming up again
and again as we looked atstructured literacy, was
integration of those skills. AndI love how they pointed out a
(11:46):
well trained teacher supportedwe talked about Margaret
Goldberg's interview, andconversation is essential to
driving all of those pieces. Sothat was great. I
agree. Donell 100% and as I waslooking at the info map, I was
thinking how comprehensive itis, not only the who, the what,
(12:07):
the how and the why, but they'vereally outlined what the each of
those sections mean. And lookingat the how, you kept mentioning,
I think we mentioned thisthroughout the season, the word
integrated kept coming up, nomatter what we're talking about,
though we're not teaching any ofthese skills in isolation,
right? Nothing is in isolation.
And then even on the how underthat, direct and systematic,
(12:31):
like you were saying, Lindsay,everybody benefits from that.
Exactly what that means,explicit, sequential,
cumulative, multimodal, and allof those things do not lend
themselves to isolation. Theyhave to be integrated. So I
think that's really important.
Yeah, I had another thing thatwas like, I was thinking about
(12:56):
from all these articles andagain, Donell, you were talking
about Barbara Wilson's articlein Hurst, she said, talking
about this research behind thisinfo map and the science of
reading that it's not new, butalways evolving. And I really
loved that. And then in readlion Margaret Goldberg's
(13:17):
article, they said, you know,science doesn't take sides. It
illuminates a path. I love thatvisual science illuminates a
path. And like we need to becareful not to succumb to
confirmation bias, which is soeasy. We're all guilty of it at
times, I think, and just, youknow, just encourage ourselves
(13:40):
and others to stay open, staycurious. I think that's really
important, because it's it isjust like Barbara Wilson says,
science is always evolving, sowe're always going to be
deepening and refining ourknowledge. And there's things
that we don't know now that weneed to be open to, when, when
we when we find out more aboutthat. Makes sense.
(14:01):
Yeah, the science illuminatesthe path, and at the same time,
requires of us to be open to newresearch and integrating it into
what we already know.
Interested in diving deeper intotoday's episode and exploring
more literacy topics join us inthe science of reading
(14:21):
collective, where we host theliteracy talks podcast chat.
It's the perfect place to shareinsights, ask questions and keep
the conversation going. Butthat's just the beginning. When
you join the science of readingcollective, you're stepping into
a vibrant, dynamic communityexplicitly designed for literacy
(14:41):
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(15:02):
that's eradicating illiteracy,that's collective. Dot Reading
horizons.com,what about important takeaways
for our listeners? What wouldyou say would be something that
you would recommend? Well,I think we've talked about it,
and so I would highly recommendthat you can access this article
free if you have not had theopportunity. So it's always
(15:22):
there. So in other words, ifyou're overwhelmed right now it
sounds like a lot to take on,don't worry. It's free. You can
access it when you have time,and then come at it a piece at a
time. If there was one thingthat interested you, maybe you
heard Lindsay talking aboutMargaret Goldberg conversation.
You think I can start there.
Start there. So that's one thingI think I want people to take
(15:44):
away, is this is not goinganywhere. So it will be
available if you haven't had anopportunity to be able to come
in contact with it in a way thatis okay for you, and then to
come back to it. So I may havealready listened, maybe I read,
but hey, maybe I've lost contactwith some of those thoughts that
I had at the beginning, or nowthat you're mentioning it, maybe
I'm interested in going back. Socome back again. It will be
(16:06):
here. It's a resource that'sthere for you. So I want people
to always remember that, hey, ifI didn't get an opportunity to
do it, it's okay. You'll have achance to do it. The other thing
that I want to point out, too,that I thought was fantastic. We
talked about integration, andwe've talked about how key that
is with the structure ofliteracy and the info map
pointing that out so well, butit was something in Kate Cain
article. And again, it was, itwas present over the whole
(16:28):
thing. So it's, it's not to sayshe's not the only one, but in
it, she points out those fourkey areas of writing,
composition and comprehension,and there are four key areas of
instruction that have beenresearched she talks about, one
is vocabulary and backgroundknowledge. Two is sentence
structure and grammar. Three isknowledge and use of text
structure, and four is criticalthinking skills. Think how big
(16:49):
these buckets are for one just,just right there. Think how big
the buckets are, such asinference and comprehension.
That's all part of criticalthinking skills. And then
monitoring, right that's alsopart of that. And she says, Now
think about all of that whenwe're talking about reading a
passage and having to access allof those that's why the
integration piece, again, if theintegration kind of your
(17:12):
thought, How do I? What do I?
That's what we're talking about.
Is when all of that isintegrated, and then you get to
reading the passage and how thelayers and depth of
understanding can be yours.
That's what that means, and alsotells us where our work is,
where the hard work and the liesright still
and writing a passage, right?
John is writing a passage too,and then even harder, because
(17:32):
you're thinking about thespelling and the physical act of
either writing or typing. Andyeah, absolutely. But here's
what's interesting, Lindsay, andI'm glad you pointed that out,
is that oftentimes when studentsaren't able to get to a deep
understanding of a passage, thecomprehension isn't quite there.
We move on and expect them towrite regardless, right? We
don't understand we do not giveit its due. That those two
(17:54):
things are so connected and sooftentimes, it should be no
surprise that when you wind upin a writing class, the student
who is struggling to understanda passage is sitting there
struggling. So I reallyappreciate you bringing that up,
because that's very important.
Yeah,yeah, it's no wonder that Kate
Cain just won the HollisScarborough award. And I think
that speaks to kind of what youwere talking about earlier, too,
(18:16):
Lindsay with Margaret Goldbergand Reed lion, the fact that
these partnerships become sopowerful in the application
Absolutely. And then to answeryour question, Stacy on another
takeaway, you know, I kind ofjumped ahead, I think, because I
was sharing, I want teachers totake away this importance of
this explicit and directinstruction. Additionally, I
(18:37):
hope that from looking at theinfo map and listening to this
season of our podcast thatyou'll see that, hey, structured
literacy is a lot more thanphonics. There's a lot more
going on. And you just take alook at that map, and you can
see that because all thosecomponents are listed. And so
when you hear, you know, anadmin or another teacher or
(18:59):
something incorrectly statethat, oh, it's just about
phonics, but we need more thanthat. You can be like, yes, we
do need more than that, and thescience of reading supports
that. Look at this info map,this kind of shows it. And then
another takeaway is just thatthere is extensive scientific
research that children needproficiency in all these
(19:22):
different domains, so all thesedifferent language reading,
related language domains thatare in that map,
yeah, well said, um, I also, asyou were talking, was thinking,
we're talking about integration,and that it's so much more than
just phonics, and to know thatif somebody is misrepresenting
(19:45):
what structured literacy is, orif you are made to use a
program, or you have input on aprogram, program selection,
knowing that these elements needto be addressed is important as
well, and giving feedback. Onthat. And I think this really
helps. It also kind of helpsgive an outline for P, pl,
(20:06):
professional learning orprofessional development, too,
areas that we can focus on. Ijust as I read all the articles,
and then towards the end when weheard, um, when Tim odegards
article about MTSS, and we had awhole issue, a whole episode on
that, but I was thinking back tomy time as a classroom teacher,
(20:27):
and I don't think just becauseof the requirements of the day
of every day. I wasn't thinkingsystemically necessarily. I was
way concerned, obviously, aboutwhat was happening in my
classroom. But there is a systemto structured literacy that is
not we're not teaching in aclassroom, isolated in
(20:47):
isolation, either. There areadministrations and
administrators and structurewithin our school and district
that we should be looking for aswell and supporting and
participating in. So I know thatour default is to come at this
from the teacher perspective,but also as administrators, to
(21:08):
think about this, the info map,or just the structure of
structured literacy and the MTSSaspect of it that is important
for assessment, that's importantfor intervention, and how you
support your teachers inapplying all of these things. So
maybe think more systemicallywould be something that I have
(21:31):
taken away from this.
You know, Stacy, it'sinteresting. You should bring
that up, because I was thinkingabout in the Louis spear
swirling conversation, and wewere talking about the reader
profile. That was one of thethings that came up. And she's,
she's so good at that, so if youget a chance, if you haven't
listened, listen to that. Andthen there was also, we talked
about how each of us own atleast one or all of some of the
(21:53):
books that she's put out. Andone is the structured literacy
planner, among others. Butthat's heavily the reader
profile. And she leans, leansinto assessment, and what to do
with those assessment pieces. Sothat dialog between the teacher
and the classroom, who needsinformation and really good
information to be puttingtogether the best instruction
for students, the dialog betweenthat teacher and administration,
(22:15):
whether that be building leveland then out from there,
district level, is reallyimportant. The up and down of
that communication and the backand forth of that communication
to know, hey, we, in good faith,selected something we thought
would be helpful or useful, andto get feedback and to have ways
in which teachers can givefeedback, because that's another
thing too. Is to show up tomeetings or spaces where
(22:35):
teachers are in theirclassrooms, because that's where
they're at, right? They don'thave a lot of leeway that way.
So setting a meeting or alocation or a time in which
teachers are able to give thefeedback, I think, is really
important too. So I love thatthat's part of the conversation.
Yeah, that's great. I thinkabout that. Even with school
board meetings, I always hadgreat intentions to attend, but
(22:58):
at the end of a day, you have somany other things to attend to
that it makes it kind of hard. Iwas also thinking, as you were
talking Donell just how powerfulthis common framework and
language could be within aschool or a district for the
students. And I was having aconversation this morning,
(23:19):
actually, with a student, and Isaid, personally, as a teacher,
I would not just send mystudents to intervention without
knowing what they're doing.
There needs to be a lot ofcommunication between the person
providing that intervention andmyself as the classroom teacher.
And this kind of a frameworkgives everybody common knowledge
(23:39):
and we're focusing on that dataright? Data driven is a key
aspect of what structuredliteracy is. I think that's
going to serve the teachers andthe student. Well, we anything
else that you have thought aboutdifferently or refined your
thinking as we have went gonethrough this season. Had all the
(24:00):
great conversations we've hadabout this issue, something
that read Lyon and MargaretGoldberg mentioned that we need
collaboration between scientistsand classroom teachers. They
said it's non negotiable. So I Ijust want, I guess, everyone
(24:24):
listening to really think aboutthat in your space, what you can
do to help that collaboration. Ithink as teachers, I think we
need more teachers speaking upand sharing the wonderful things
that they're doing in theclassroom. And I don't think
like, I feel like sometimes wehave this attitude where we hold
(24:44):
up the researchers on a pedestaland and it's like, come and
learn at the their feet when itneeds to be more equal footing.
And I think we need to give asmuch respect to the teachers,
because obviously I'm a littlebiased, since I am a teacher,
but. So the teachers are doingit's hard work what they're
doing, and when you haveteachers who are doing it, well,
(25:07):
we need to hear from them. And Ilove when I see that
collaboration, and I see thatrespect, because I've seen that
a lot too, where there's amazingresearchers who are getting in
the classrooms and or whenthey're presenting, have a
teacher voice in there, or, youknow, acknowledge that like I
loved when I went to Dr widgetcamars, I remember her
(25:32):
presentation at the readingLeague, and she brought with her
the teachers and the schoolleader at the school that were
implementing what she wastalking about. So they were
there if you wanted to go askquestions at the end. And I
think she had one talk for alittle bit. And I love to see
that collaboration and kind ofacknowledgement that we do need
to hear from both. And I thinkif we want this work to move
(25:55):
forward, we need to be talkingmore about implementation and
teachers are the implementationscientists, right? Like Dr Hogan
said that last year of Big Sky.
So anyways, I love that theymentioned that in their article,
and I just, I would love to seemore collaboration. They're both
so needed. We so need theresearch and the researchers and
(26:18):
experts explaining that, and weso need the teachers helping us
with what they're doing in theclassroom.
Yeah, I think that's great.
Lindsay, I loved hearing thatand summing that up so well. And
it also made me think aboutthere's sometimes a voice that I
don't always hear in the spacethat I think is important, and
(26:38):
that's from the folks who arereceiving additional instruction
outside of a school settingbecause they're not able to get
enough. And I think when we geta handle on just how many kids
whose parents are able tobecause they have the means, who
are getting that kind ofadditional support outside the
school, because there just isn'tenough happening in the school,
I think our eyes will be widelyopened. Tim Odegard sort of
(27:01):
touches on this a bit,particularly in his article and
then in conversations, is justhow much more a student with
dyslexia needs. So I love that.
Let's having these greatconversations around supporting
teachers and teachers being ableto work with researchers. So
we're getting somewhere in theclassroom which would be amazing
for all students, not just forcertain students, for all
(27:21):
students, that's another thingwe need to remember, everybody
benefits when you have that kindof collaboration and really good
instruction happening in aclassroom. But then I'd also
love to see us kind of try tomeasure, because I don't know
that we ever will or how, howmuch additional effort is being
put forth by folks who,thankfully have the means, are
able to find it in order to helpthose kids who need that much
(27:42):
more to be successful with withthings that are in the language
realm. And I think that would bevery interesting to open that
come because it's over. It'shuge, as Tim touches for us on
this sort of thing in a lot ofthe work that he does, that's a
really interesting and I want tosee more of that conversation
too. I think this is all great,yeah,
and that's definitely an area ofresearch that really can't
(28:03):
afford to not include theclassroom or no matter what that
instructional setting is. Yeah,right. I think about just how
much I have learned as a teacherbecause somebody was researching
students who could not learn toread as quickly as others, and
(28:26):
in reality, I think, Oh, I can'tremember what page is on. This
really terrible of me, but thereis a part in this issue where it
states that we have been taughtto teach reading in a way that
only affects the minority of ourstudents, like a minority, like
30% of our students, but that'show we're taught to approach it.
(28:48):
So without differentiation ordata, informed assessment and
instruction, then we are notgoing to move the dial for the
majority of our students whenwe're talking about that
connection between research andpractice. I know as a teacher, I
could not do my job withoutresearchers and and the things
that they help us to know. Andthen I'd like to see on the
(29:10):
other side too, researchersknowing and well, and I think
they know it. But a lot ofresearch is not education
friendly, in a sense, some is,but it's more like they think of
it in a lab, in highlycontrolled situations, which
teaching is not. Anybody who'staught knows that you have not
(29:33):
as much control as you thinkover what a kid's gonna do or
say, or you know when you'revideoing a lesson and a kid
chooses to pick his nose orwhatever, like that. That's the
messy reality. I'd love to seemore research done as with the
classroom as the lab. That wouldbe great. And I do think for
(29:54):
teachers, oftentimes, they'retold about research, but you can
reach out if you have.
University in your town reachout to the Education Department,
ask if they're doing any activeresearch, and if your students
can participate and you cancollaborate with them to do
that, yeah, and I'm suredistrict administrators could be
having those conversations aswell. That's a really great
(30:16):
thing to emphasize for thefuture, right? That can continue
to add to this evolving science.
Any final thoughts?
My final thought is, don't getoverwhelmed. Try not to get
(30:36):
overwhelmed. Start with onething, right, one thing at a
time,Donell, yeah, just saying, I
mean, we pretty much said a lotof things, but just re
emphasizing that the podcastisn't going anywhere. So if you
haven't had a chance to listen,don't worry. You can come back
and hit it where you can, sothere's no sense of urgency, or
I missed it. You didn't missanything. No FOMO. And then
(30:58):
additionally, there is also ahard copy, so you can go back
and say, Boy, I'd really like tolearn more about that you can so
you can access that and justremember the journey, right?
It's part. This is partly thejourney, and to remember where
you are right now versus whereyou're going to be in a month,
six months to a year. And Ican't wait to see it will be
exciting.
(31:21):
I have loved this season. I lovethis issue that we've been
focusing on, in large partbecause I feel like we do need
to survey large fields,cultivate small ones, and this
gives us the framework to dothat. So like you guys are
saying, don't feel overwhelmed.
You have the framework workwithin it, there are a lot of
resources that they have madeavailable. And of course, keep
(31:44):
your eye on the science. Thinklike a scientist, because
guarantee, if we were to do thesame type of episode in 10
years, we would be talking aboutsomething that has evolved in
our knowledge and our learning,right and to our listeners,
thank you so much for joining usthis season. We really look
(32:05):
forward to having you join usand future seasons of literacy
talks.
Thanks for joining us today.
Literacy talks comes to you fromReading Horizons, where literacy
momentum begins. Visit Readinghorizons.com/literacy talks to
access episodes and resources tosupport your journey in the
(32:28):
science of reading. You.
Welcome to literacy talks, the podcast for literacy
leaders and championseverywhere, brought to you by
Reading Horizons. Literacy talksis the place to discover new
ideas, trends, insights andpractical strategies for helping
all learners reach readingproficiency. Our hosts are Stacy
Hurst, a professor at SouthernUtah University and Chief
(00:27):
Academic Advisor for ReadingHorizons. Donell Pons, a
recognized expert and advocatein literacy, dyslexia and
special education, and LindsayKemeny, an elementary classroom
teacher, author and speaker. Nowlet's talk literacy.
(00:49):
Welcome to this episode ofliteracy talks. I'm Stacy Hurst
and I'm joined by Lindsay Kemenyand Donell Pons, and those of
you who've been listening thisseason know that we have been
focusing on the perspectives onlanguage and literacy. 75th
anniversary issue published bythe International Dyslexia
Association. And this episode,we are actually wrapping up this
(01:12):
season, so we have theopportunity to discuss the
things that we've learnedthroughout the from this
publication and throughout ourseason, and just talk about some
of the high points for us. We'vehad some fantastic guests, and
this is the first time we'vedone a theme for the whole
(01:33):
season, right? We've done someseries before, but this has been
a really unique thing for us,and I personally have loved it
Donell Lindsay, what are some ofyour your feelings about how
this season was? Itwas so fun to have a theme and
do something different thisseason. So I love it that we
could kind of dive deep intothis great issue. And I really
(01:55):
enjoyed the opportunity to kindof explore. And you know, it
forces me to kind of read moredeeply as I'm reading these
different articles. So Idefinitely appreciate the
opportunity and the discussionswe've had. Yeah,
Stacy Hurst (02:12):
done. Now, what did you think? Yeah,
Unknown (02:14):
I thought it was really fun to be able to look at
structured literacy again likethis, and to have each aspect
there was a really good expertor someone to comment on it, and
it was nice to pull those piecesapart, see the hole and pull it
apart. And it's nice to have, Ithink, a reevaluation, if you
will. So there were some folkswho are very familiar with
(02:34):
structured literacy. Haveprobably known the term and
followed folks for years. Andthere are others who may be new
to it, but so this, this newexamination, was nice, and then
to link that to some of the infograph or info map resources,
that idea is putting out thereas well, so that you can go to
the website, you can click on,as we've talked about before,
and we will again, you can clickon various aspects of structured
(02:57):
literacy in the info map and getadditional information and
Stacy. You pointed out manytimes they keep uploading, and
that's great, and so we'll keepchecking back to see what they
keep adding to that. So I thinkit was really nice that way, to
be able to explore everythingthat they're trying to put into
this and then re examinestructured literacy. Yeah,
and Donell, I think it go. Weshould acknowledge that this was
your idea, and we're glad thatyou had it, because for all the
(03:20):
same reasons. You guys said itgave us all a chance to kind of
refine, revisit and learn alittle bit more about it. I know
that right at the beginning ofthe the issue, it gives the
history of the term structuredliteracy, which I think is worth
noting, and I think it'simportant for those of us in
(03:43):
education to understand thathistory, the term is only been
in existence since 2014 butthere is something on page six
of the physical man, thephysical edition, that I thought
kind of summed up nicely how, IGuess we all should, should move
forward in this space aseducators. But they said, as
(04:05):
science, advanced idea evolved,as we evolved, our vision
sharpened. And I think that'swhat this season has helped me
to do, to sharpen my vision andunderstand that that evolution
that we've come through inregards to reading instruction.
Also new for our podcast is thefact that we have had more
(04:29):
guests this season than we havein the past, so we have a lot to
talk about. And just right offthe top of your heads, I guess,
did you guys have some memorablemoments for you this season,
I loved interviewing MargaretGoldberg, having her on she is,
(04:50):
you know, she's a friend of minebecause we met back in 2019 or I
think it was 2019 and I justrespect her so much. She. She is
working in the schools as aliteracy coach right now, and so
it's so interesting to hear herperspective and her day to day,
because she's living it. And Ilove hearing her story of how
(05:13):
she transitioned from balancedliteracy to, you know, kind of
doing these experiments in herclassroom and learning more
about structured literacy andthe science of reading. I just
think she's a wealth ofknowledge. So that that
interview definitely stands outfor me, but it's hard, it is
hard to pick just one. I'll letDonell go. But we had so many
(05:35):
amazing guests this season.
Yeah, we did. I think that's ahighlight for me. Would be all
of the guests, because I thinkeach one brought something very
interesting, unique perspective,as you say, Lindsay Margaret is
always a treasure. She's veryfun to listen to. She condenses
things down so well. Herpractical knowledge is so deep.
(05:57):
And so if you didn't get to hearthat one, I highly recommend.
And then David Hurford was onethat maybe a lot of folks are
not familiar with. The work ofDavid Hereford, and he's a
researcher. He's been at thisfor a long time, and he had a
lot of information to share. Itwas one of those interviews
where you don't reallyinterview, but rather he just
gives you the whole thing. Andit was great. We didn't want to
(06:18):
interrupt, and it wasinteresting, because I had
somebody email me after, whosaid I was delighted. I had
never heard of David Hurstbefore, but wow, what a wealth
of information. And he really isjust about all of the aspects of
trying to turn literacy around,because he's been involved in
it, of course, working withdifferent states on their
legislation. So he was able tobring that piece in, and then
also a little bit of history asto why he was interested in
(06:40):
studying this particular thing,which was interesting as well.
So I think that was aninteresting one for folks who
maybe aren't familiar with him.
And then again, Louise bearswirling, cannot say enough that
she's always so good atcondensing very difficult things
down into very understandablepieces. And she's also very good
at keeping track of what'sdifferent between structured
(07:01):
literacy and business as usualor a whole language model.
She's, she's one of the best atthat, I think, and that,
additionally, Kate Cain was newfor me. Anyway, I hadn't really
been very familiar with KateCain work coming out of a
different sort of, you know,university ecosystem. But very,
very interesting informationabout comprehension. So yeah, I
(07:21):
think there were a lot ofdifferent things this year that
were delightful. Theyare just such power houses in
this field. And I always lovelistening to them. I think
they're really dynamic speakers,and what an honor to have them
on.
And I think they're, they'retopic areas too, and Dr Cardenas
(07:45):
Hagan about teaching studentswho may not speak English as
their first language. And Ialways, I love this whole
structured literacy model, theinfo map, and it helps me
identify areas that I need tolearn more about. And I know I
have a list of things I want tocontinue to learn about based on
(08:05):
their work. I personally meetingLouise spear swirling was a
highlight of my career. I havedone so I've read so much of her
research before, even back whenI was more in the balance
literacy phase of my teaching,because that's all we knew. So
it was just delightful to have aconversation with her. And if
(08:28):
you've listened to the episode,you know how much she knows, and
the fact that we cannot overlookteacher knowledge that has got
to be center, front and centerprofessional development is
really important for what we'redoing, and I know that was kind
of came full circle consideringwhere I am in my career right
(08:49):
now. It really helped me go towork the next day, being even
more dedicated to making sure mypre service teachers know what
they need to know. And then, asfar as the the issue goes
itself. Did you guys have anyimportant takeaways that you
maybe refined your thinking oryou highlighted as something
(09:12):
interesting to you?
Oh, there's so many things I dowant to say. I really loved Kate
Cain article and her interview.
I wasn't able to be there. I wasteaching during that time, and
but listening to it, that is onethat I want to go back and
listen again. And I think I wantto read the article and then
(09:35):
listen to her again. But I lovedher article about how structured
literacy integratescomprehension and composition,
how important it's something wedon't talk about as as as often.
Maybe, I mean we do now, but,but okay, important takeaways to
(09:55):
your point, your questions.
Stacy. I hope that everyonetakes away that from all of
these articles that systematicand explicit instruction is the
most reliable method forteaching word reading and
comprehension. It talked aboutthat in one of the articles. I
(10:16):
think it was read lines andMargaret Goldberg's article. But
I just think, I hope, likecoming away from that that is a
big takeaway, and that readerssee that yes, because we still
get, I think so many in theschools are still thinking, Oh,
this discovery based, or, youknow, well, those, it's when we
(10:38):
do, when we lead our teachingwith a discovery based model.
We're leaving out so manystudents if they could discover
it than they would have already,right? And so just to give the
best chance for everyone is toteach them explicitly and
directly from the beginning. AndI just think that's that's it,
one of my huge takeaways.
I love that Lindsay. I thinkthat is key too. I'm going to
(11:00):
Yes, yes to that. And then addalso it was in the article by
Barbara Wilson, and that thatwas a rather extensive one,
because in Barbara's Wilson'sarticle, she went over the whole
thing in the map and tried togive us the overview. But within
that, there was something reallyinteresting. And it was, it was
a line that came out of therestructured literacy may include
a program to facilitate teachingcertain skills like word
(11:23):
recognition, spelling, etcetera, explicitly, like Lindsay
said, systematically, butsupported trained teachers drive
this is the important piece,guys that we talked about a lot,
the integration of instruction.
I mean, that was another keyword that kept coming up again
and again as we looked atstructured literacy, was
integration of those skills. AndI love how they pointed out a
(11:46):
well trained teacher supportedwe talked about Margaret
Goldberg's interview, andconversation is essential to
driving all of those pieces. Sothat was great. I
agree. Donell 100% and as I waslooking at the info map, I was
thinking how comprehensive itis, not only the who, the what,
(12:07):
the how and the why, but they'vereally outlined what the each of
those sections mean. And lookingat the how, you kept mentioning,
I think we mentioned thisthroughout the season, the word
integrated kept coming up, nomatter what we're talking about,
though we're not teaching any ofthese skills in isolation,
right? Nothing is in isolation.
And then even on the how underthat, direct and systematic,
(12:31):
like you were saying, Lindsay,everybody benefits from that.
Exactly what that means,explicit, sequential,
cumulative, multimodal, and allof those things do not lend
themselves to isolation. Theyhave to be integrated. So I
think that's really important.
Yeah, I had another thing thatwas like, I was thinking about
(12:56):
from all these articles andagain, Donell, you were talking
about Barbara Wilson's articlein Hurst, she said, talking
about this research behind thisinfo map and the science of
reading that it's not new, butalways evolving. And I really
loved that. And then in readlion Margaret Goldberg's
(13:17):
article, they said, you know,science doesn't take sides. It
illuminates a path. I love thatvisual science illuminates a
path. And like we need to becareful not to succumb to
confirmation bias, which is soeasy. We're all guilty of it at
times, I think, and just, youknow, just encourage ourselves
(13:40):
and others to stay open, staycurious. I think that's really
important, because it's it isjust like Barbara Wilson says,
science is always evolving, sowe're always going to be
deepening and refining ourknowledge. And there's things
that we don't know now that weneed to be open to, when, when
we when we find out more aboutthat. Makes sense.
(14:01):
Yeah, the science illuminatesthe path, and at the same time,
requires of us to be open to newresearch and integrating it into
what we already know.
Interested in diving deeper intotoday's episode and exploring
more literacy topics join us inthe science of reading
(14:21):
collective, where we host theliteracy talks podcast chat.
It's the perfect place to shareinsights, ask questions and keep
the conversation going. Butthat's just the beginning. When
you join the science of readingcollective, you're stepping into
a vibrant, dynamic communityexplicitly designed for literacy
(14:41):
champions like you accessdecodable texts, sound wall
resources and professionallearning in our AI enhanced
community all brought to youabsolutely free. Find us at
collective dot Readinghorizons.com, join the science
of reading COVID. Collectivetoday and be part of a movement
(15:02):
that's eradicating illiteracy,that's collective. Dot Reading
horizons.com,what about important takeaways
for our listeners? What wouldyou say would be something that
you would recommend? Well,I think we've talked about it,
and so I would highly recommendthat you can access this article
free if you have not had theopportunity. So it's always
(15:22):
there. So in other words, ifyou're overwhelmed right now it
sounds like a lot to take on,don't worry. It's free. You can
access it when you have time,and then come at it a piece at a
time. If there was one thingthat interested you, maybe you
heard Lindsay talking aboutMargaret Goldberg conversation.
You think I can start there.
Start there. So that's one thingI think I want people to take
(15:44):
away, is this is not goinganywhere. So it will be
available if you haven't had anopportunity to be able to come
in contact with it in a way thatis okay for you, and then to
come back to it. So I may havealready listened, maybe I read,
but hey, maybe I've lost contactwith some of those thoughts that
I had at the beginning, or nowthat you're mentioning it, maybe
I'm interested in going back. Socome back again. It will be
(16:06):
here. It's a resource that'sthere for you. So I want people
to always remember that, hey, ifI didn't get an opportunity to
do it, it's okay. You'll have achance to do it. The other thing
that I want to point out, too,that I thought was fantastic. We
talked about integration, andwe've talked about how key that
is with the structure ofliteracy and the info map
pointing that out so well, butit was something in Kate Cain
article. And again, it was, itwas present over the whole
(16:28):
thing. So it's, it's not to sayshe's not the only one, but in
it, she points out those fourkey areas of writing,
composition and comprehension,and there are four key areas of
instruction that have beenresearched she talks about, one
is vocabulary and backgroundknowledge. Two is sentence
structure and grammar. Three isknowledge and use of text
structure, and four is criticalthinking skills. Think how big
(16:49):
these buckets are for one just,just right there. Think how big
the buckets are, such asinference and comprehension.
That's all part of criticalthinking skills. And then
monitoring, right that's alsopart of that. And she says, Now
think about all of that whenwe're talking about reading a
passage and having to access allof those that's why the
integration piece, again, if theintegration kind of your
(17:12):
thought, How do I? What do I?
That's what we're talking about.
Is when all of that isintegrated, and then you get to
reading the passage and how thelayers and depth of
understanding can be yours.
That's what that means, and alsotells us where our work is,
where the hard work and the liesright still
and writing a passage, right?
John is writing a passage too,and then even harder, because
(17:32):
you're thinking about thespelling and the physical act of
either writing or typing. Andyeah, absolutely. But here's
what's interesting, Lindsay, andI'm glad you pointed that out,
is that oftentimes when studentsaren't able to get to a deep
understanding of a passage, thecomprehension isn't quite there.
We move on and expect them towrite regardless, right? We
don't understand we do not giveit its due. That those two
(17:54):
things are so connected and sooftentimes, it should be no
surprise that when you wind upin a writing class, the student
who is struggling to understanda passage is sitting there
struggling. So I reallyappreciate you bringing that up,
because that's very important.
Yeah,yeah, it's no wonder that Kate
Cain just won the HollisScarborough award. And I think
that speaks to kind of what youwere talking about earlier, too,
(18:16):
Lindsay with Margaret Goldbergand Reed lion, the fact that
these partnerships become sopowerful in the application
Absolutely. And then to answeryour question, Stacy on another
takeaway, you know, I kind ofjumped ahead, I think, because I
was sharing, I want teachers totake away this importance of
this explicit and directinstruction. Additionally, I
(18:37):
hope that from looking at theinfo map and listening to this
season of our podcast thatyou'll see that, hey, structured
literacy is a lot more thanphonics. There's a lot more
going on. And you just take alook at that map, and you can
see that because all thosecomponents are listed. And so
when you hear, you know, anadmin or another teacher or
(18:59):
something incorrectly statethat, oh, it's just about
phonics, but we need more thanthat. You can be like, yes, we
do need more than that, and thescience of reading supports
that. Look at this info map,this kind of shows it. And then
another takeaway is just thatthere is extensive scientific
research that children needproficiency in all these
(19:22):
different domains, so all thesedifferent language reading,
related language domains thatare in that map,
yeah, well said, um, I also, asyou were talking, was thinking,
we're talking about integration,and that it's so much more than
just phonics, and to know thatif somebody is misrepresenting
(19:45):
what structured literacy is, orif you are made to use a
program, or you have input on aprogram, program selection,
knowing that these elements needto be addressed is important as
well, and giving feedback. Onthat. And I think this really
helps. It also kind of helpsgive an outline for P, pl,
(20:06):
professional learning orprofessional development, too,
areas that we can focus on. Ijust as I read all the articles,
and then towards the end when weheard, um, when Tim odegards
article about MTSS, and we had awhole issue, a whole episode on
that, but I was thinking back tomy time as a classroom teacher,
(20:27):
and I don't think just becauseof the requirements of the day
of every day. I wasn't thinkingsystemically necessarily. I was
way concerned, obviously, aboutwhat was happening in my
classroom. But there is a systemto structured literacy that is
not we're not teaching in aclassroom, isolated in
(20:47):
isolation, either. There areadministrations and
administrators and structurewithin our school and district
that we should be looking for aswell and supporting and
participating in. So I know thatour default is to come at this
from the teacher perspective,but also as administrators, to
(21:08):
think about this, the info map,or just the structure of
structured literacy and the MTSSaspect of it that is important
for assessment, that's importantfor intervention, and how you
support your teachers inapplying all of these things. So
maybe think more systemicallywould be something that I have
(21:31):
taken away from this.
You know, Stacy, it'sinteresting. You should bring
that up, because I was thinkingabout in the Louis spear
swirling conversation, and wewere talking about the reader
profile. That was one of thethings that came up. And she's,
she's so good at that, so if youget a chance, if you haven't
listened, listen to that. Andthen there was also, we talked
about how each of us own atleast one or all of some of the
(21:53):
books that she's put out. Andone is the structured literacy
planner, among others. Butthat's heavily the reader
profile. And she leans, leansinto assessment, and what to do
with those assessment pieces. Sothat dialog between the teacher
and the classroom, who needsinformation and really good
information to be puttingtogether the best instruction
for students, the dialog betweenthat teacher and administration,
(22:15):
whether that be building leveland then out from there,
district level, is reallyimportant. The up and down of
that communication and the backand forth of that communication
to know, hey, we, in good faith,selected something we thought
would be helpful or useful, andto get feedback and to have ways
in which teachers can givefeedback, because that's another
thing too. Is to show up tomeetings or spaces where
(22:35):
teachers are in theirclassrooms, because that's where
they're at, right? They don'thave a lot of leeway that way.
So setting a meeting or alocation or a time in which
teachers are able to give thefeedback, I think, is really
important too. So I love thatthat's part of the conversation.
Yeah, that's great. I thinkabout that. Even with school
board meetings, I always hadgreat intentions to attend, but
(22:58):
at the end of a day, you have somany other things to attend to
that it makes it kind of hard. Iwas also thinking, as you were
talking Donell just how powerfulthis common framework and
language could be within aschool or a district for the
students. And I was having aconversation this morning,
(23:19):
actually, with a student, and Isaid, personally, as a teacher,
I would not just send mystudents to intervention without
knowing what they're doing.
There needs to be a lot ofcommunication between the person
providing that intervention andmyself as the classroom teacher.
And this kind of a frameworkgives everybody common knowledge
(23:39):
and we're focusing on that dataright? Data driven is a key
aspect of what structuredliteracy is. I think that's
going to serve the teachers andthe student. Well, we anything
else that you have thought aboutdifferently or refined your
thinking as we have went gonethrough this season. Had all the
(24:00):
great conversations we've hadabout this issue, something
that read Lyon and MargaretGoldberg mentioned that we need
collaboration between scientistsand classroom teachers. They
said it's non negotiable. So I Ijust want, I guess, everyone
(24:24):
listening to really think aboutthat in your space, what you can
do to help that collaboration. Ithink as teachers, I think we
need more teachers speaking upand sharing the wonderful things
that they're doing in theclassroom. And I don't think
like, I feel like sometimes wehave this attitude where we hold
(24:44):
up the researchers on a pedestaland and it's like, come and
learn at the their feet when itneeds to be more equal footing.
And I think we need to give asmuch respect to the teachers,
because obviously I'm a littlebiased, since I am a teacher,
but. So the teachers are doingit's hard work what they're
doing, and when you haveteachers who are doing it, well,
(25:07):
we need to hear from them. And Ilove when I see that
collaboration, and I see thatrespect, because I've seen that
a lot too, where there's amazingresearchers who are getting in
the classrooms and or whenthey're presenting, have a
teacher voice in there, or, youknow, acknowledge that like I
loved when I went to Dr widgetcamars, I remember her
(25:32):
presentation at the readingLeague, and she brought with her
the teachers and the schoolleader at the school that were
implementing what she wastalking about. So they were
there if you wanted to go askquestions at the end. And I
think she had one talk for alittle bit. And I love to see
that collaboration and kind ofacknowledgement that we do need
to hear from both. And I thinkif we want this work to move
(25:55):
forward, we need to be talkingmore about implementation and
teachers are the implementationscientists, right? Like Dr Hogan
said that last year of Big Sky.
So anyways, I love that theymentioned that in their article,
and I just, I would love to seemore collaboration. They're both
so needed. We so need theresearch and the researchers and
(26:18):
experts explaining that, and weso need the teachers helping us
with what they're doing in theclassroom.
Yeah, I think that's great.
Lindsay, I loved hearing thatand summing that up so well. And
it also made me think aboutthere's sometimes a voice that I
don't always hear in the spacethat I think is important, and
(26:38):
that's from the folks who arereceiving additional instruction
outside of a school settingbecause they're not able to get
enough. And I think when we geta handle on just how many kids
whose parents are able tobecause they have the means, who
are getting that kind ofadditional support outside the
school, because there just isn'tenough happening in the school,
I think our eyes will be widelyopened. Tim Odegard sort of
(27:01):
touches on this a bit,particularly in his article and
then in conversations, is justhow much more a student with
dyslexia needs. So I love that.
Let's having these greatconversations around supporting
teachers and teachers being ableto work with researchers. So
we're getting somewhere in theclassroom which would be amazing
for all students, not just forcertain students, for all
(27:21):
students, that's another thingwe need to remember, everybody
benefits when you have that kindof collaboration and really good
instruction happening in aclassroom. But then I'd also
love to see us kind of try tomeasure, because I don't know
that we ever will or how, howmuch additional effort is being
put forth by folks who,thankfully have the means, are
able to find it in order to helpthose kids who need that much
(27:42):
more to be successful with withthings that are in the language
realm. And I think that would bevery interesting to open that
come because it's over. It'shuge, as Tim touches for us on
this sort of thing in a lot ofthe work that he does, that's a
really interesting and I want tosee more of that conversation
too. I think this is all great,yeah,
and that's definitely an area ofresearch that really can't
(28:03):
afford to not include theclassroom or no matter what that
instructional setting is. Yeah,right. I think about just how
much I have learned as a teacherbecause somebody was researching
students who could not learn toread as quickly as others, and
(28:26):
in reality, I think, Oh, I can'tremember what page is on. This
really terrible of me, but thereis a part in this issue where it
states that we have been taughtto teach reading in a way that
only affects the minority of ourstudents, like a minority, like
30% of our students, but that'show we're taught to approach it.
(28:48):
So without differentiation ordata, informed assessment and
instruction, then we are notgoing to move the dial for the
majority of our students whenwe're talking about that
connection between research andpractice. I know as a teacher, I
could not do my job withoutresearchers and and the things
that they help us to know. Andthen I'd like to see on the
(29:10):
other side too, researchersknowing and well, and I think
they know it. But a lot ofresearch is not education
friendly, in a sense, some is,but it's more like they think of
it in a lab, in highlycontrolled situations, which
teaching is not. Anybody who'staught knows that you have not
(29:33):
as much control as you thinkover what a kid's gonna do or
say, or you know when you'revideoing a lesson and a kid
chooses to pick his nose orwhatever, like that. That's the
messy reality. I'd love to seemore research done as with the
classroom as the lab. That wouldbe great. And I do think for
(29:54):
teachers, oftentimes, they'retold about research, but you can
reach out if you have.
University in your town reachout to the Education Department,
ask if they're doing any activeresearch, and if your students
can participate and you cancollaborate with them to do
that, yeah, and I'm suredistrict administrators could be
having those conversations aswell. That's a really great
(30:16):
thing to emphasize for thefuture, right? That can continue
to add to this evolving science.
Any final thoughts?
My final thought is, don't getoverwhelmed. Try not to get
(30:36):
overwhelmed. Start with onething, right, one thing at a
time,Donell, yeah, just saying, I
mean, we pretty much said a lotof things, but just re
emphasizing that the podcastisn't going anywhere. So if you
haven't had a chance to listen,don't worry. You can come back
and hit it where you can, sothere's no sense of urgency, or
I missed it. You didn't missanything. No FOMO. And then
(30:58):
additionally, there is also ahard copy, so you can go back
and say, Boy, I'd really like tolearn more about that you can so
you can access that and justremember the journey, right?
It's part. This is partly thejourney, and to remember where
you are right now versus whereyou're going to be in a month,
six months to a year. And Ican't wait to see it will be
exciting.
(31:21):
I have loved this season. I lovethis issue that we've been
focusing on, in large partbecause I feel like we do need
to survey large fields,cultivate small ones, and this
gives us the framework to dothat. So like you guys are
saying, don't feel overwhelmed.
You have the framework workwithin it, there are a lot of
resources that they have madeavailable. And of course, keep
(31:44):
your eye on the science. Thinklike a scientist, because
guarantee, if we were to do thesame type of episode in 10
years, we would be talking aboutsomething that has evolved in
our knowledge and our learning,right and to our listeners,
thank you so much for joining usthis season. We really look
(32:05):
forward to having you join usand future seasons of literacy
talks.
Thanks for joining us today.
Literacy talks comes to you fromReading Horizons, where literacy
momentum begins. Visit Readinghorizons.com/literacy talks to
access episodes and resources tosupport your journey in the
(32:28):
science of reading. You.
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