February 4, 2025 • 26 mins
This season opener of Literacy Talks dives into the foundational elements of structured literacy, inspired by the International Dyslexia Association's 75th Anniversary issue of Perspectives on Language and Literacy. Hosts Stacy Hurst, Lindsay Kemeny, and Donell Pons explore the insights of Barbara Wilson and Jessica Hammond on how structured literacy, grounded in the science of reading, is transforming classrooms. Whether you’re new to the concept or a seasoned educator, join us for an engaging discussion designed to inspire and equip you with tools to champion effective literacy instruction.
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Episode Transcript
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Narrator (00:03):
Welcome to literacy talks, the podcast for literacy
leaders and championseverywhere, brought to you by
Reading Horizons. Literacy talksis the place to discover new
ideas, trends, insights andpractical strategies for helping
all learners reach readingproficiency. Our hosts are
Stacey Hurst, a professor atSouthern Utah University and
(00:26):
Chief Academic Advisor forReading Horizons. Donnell pons,
a recognized expert and advocatein literacy, dyslexia and
special education, and LindsayKemeny, an elementary classroom
teacher, author and speaker. Nowlet's talk literacy.
Donell Pons (00:47):
Welcome to this special season of the literacy
talks podcast, where we delveinto the 75th anniversary issue
of the International DyslexiaAssociation's perspectives on
language and literacy. Thislandmark issue is dedicated to
structured literacy, the mosteffective approach for teaching
all students to read and spell,including those with learning
difficulties. We will also betalking to professionals in the
(01:10):
field to get their understandingof structured literacy. In this
episode, we'll be focusing onthe foundational elements of
structured literacy and what itmeans to teach in this way with
research and evidence base asyour practices, structured
literacy embodies thoseprinciples that we know are good
for all students that isexplicit, systematic
instruction. Throughout thisseason, we'll unpack the core
(01:32):
components of structuredliteracy, discuss its practical
applications, and hear fromleading voices in the field,
whether you're an educator,parent, or simply interested in
effective literacy instruction,this episode and the season will
provide valuable insights andinspire you to champion
structured literacy. Welcome
Stacy Hurst (01:51):
to the first episode of our new season of
literacy Talks. My name is StacyHurst, and I'm joined by Lindsay
Kemeny and Donnell pons, andthis is our season intro, and it
is a very exciting season. AndI'm giving all the credit to
Donnell for coming up with theidea. So Donnell, I'm actually
(02:14):
giving you the credit and themic. Do you want to lead us into
this season? Oh,
Donell Pons (02:20):
great. And then I'm going to have to confess this
was fully baked and ready to goby the International Dyslexia
Association in theirperspectives publication. So I
thank them for providing such agreat publication, and that also
gives our listeners a little bitof a hint. So being able to
access, or get their hands on acopy online of perspectives, the
75th anniversary edition. We'llreally be focusing on a lot of
(02:44):
the pieces that are in there forthis coming season. And so we'll
also hit that up again to remindyou, if you want to actually
look at it, but we have somereally good interviews. We'll
have some good conversations.
And so even if you don't have anopportunity to read it, you're
really busy, you haven't beenable to access Don't worry,
tuning in, you'll still have alot that you'll be able to dive
into just listening. So again,if you can get your hands on it,
(03:05):
fantastic. If not, do not worry.
We're going to provide a lot ofinsight for you, an opportunity
to listen to a lot of differenttopics surrounding structured
literacy, which is going to bethe year, as Stacy said, our
season really going to take adeep dive. And as I mentioned
before, the InternationalDyslexia Association chose to
(03:25):
focus, for its 75th anniversary,which was a nice celebration for
them, chose to focus onstructured literacy. And so the
entire publication does justthat, and they speak with a lot
of really great people in thefield who have taken some time
to write, to be concise abouttheir thoughts and feelings on
structured literacy, and it'sall around the who, what, where,
(03:46):
why, how, that stuff that welove and that we need. So I
think educators are just goingto love it. And the other thing
is, is that this is really aconversation. So we we fully
intend to kind of stop have achit chat about things, because
that's the way we do things, andalso to talk about how it
impacts each of us in ourdifferent settings. So that'll
be important as well. And we'realso going to provide, you know,
(04:09):
not only that, definition ofstructured literacy for our
listeners who are out theregoing, Hey, wait a minute. I'm
not familiar with that term,although I assume a lot are, so
I'm not assuming you don't know,but structured literacy is
really a trademark term by theInternational Dyslexia
Association, and this came aboutin about 2014 so it's been
around for a while, and it wasreally a way of having folks who
(04:30):
are in the field all workingaround this thing we call the
science of reading, coalescingaround some some good,
significant things we take outof the science of reading about
teaching what good readinginstruction looks like. So
that's what we're talking aboutwhen we talk about structured
literacy, and it's the mosteffective approach, not just for
students who experiencedifficulties with reading, like
(04:51):
our folks who have dyslexia. Soyou might have heard it there
those areas, but it's also forall students. We found that they
can all get a boost from theirreading instruction. And when
using these principles ofstructured literacy. And so
we'll talk a little bit aboutthat. I was just going to ask
Stacy and Lindsay, do you guysremember the first time you
heard the term structuredliteracy? I
Stacy Hurst (05:11):
don't remember the exact date, but I do remember. I
do remember actually wonderingwhat it meant. And I think it
kind of came about around thesame time as we started using
science of reading as a phraseubiquitously. I do remember
wondering the difference betweenthe two. Yeah, I
Lindsay Kemeny (05:32):
first heard of it when around when my son was
diagnosed, a little bit after itmight have been, you know, up
maybe six months after he wasdiagnosed, when I really learned
what it was. And I don't thinkwe were using the term science
of reading then, because I feellike that came a little bit
later, or at least for me, forwhen I was aware of it. But, and
(05:54):
you know, really, because my sonwas diagnosed with dyslexia,
that took me on my journey tothe IDA. And the IDA, as you
mentioned, Donnell is who coinedthe term structured literacy. So
and then I had an OrtonGillingham training, you know,
pretty early on in my journey,maybe a year after he was
(06:16):
diagnosed. And and, of course,they use the term structured
literacy quite a bit. Yeah,
Donell Pons (06:23):
you know, it's interesting, because, as you
say, each of us kind of has adifferent and Stacy. You
couldn't remember the exactdate, but you kind of think, oh,
maybe it came around this timeperiod. I think for all of us,
it's kind of like, that's littlehazy. We don't know the exact
time period when we came incontact with certain things. But
I think for me too, Lindsay, itwas in a training I think that's
when I and it was Wilson readingand spelling, and it was in that
(06:43):
training I'm hearing this termstructured literacy tossed
around a little bit. And then indifferent settings, I'd hear
some people chit chatting, andthey've mentioned the term
structured literacy. Sometimesat a conference, you might hear
it dropped in. And then I waskind of surprised that as I made
my way to the IDA website andwas cruising around on the info
sheets that they had, there wasa graphic, and looking at this
graphic and wondering, okay,that's really interesting. So
(07:06):
where does this fit? Andreferring to it that way from
time to time, for what I wasgathering, the information I was
gathering in conferences andthings and in my settings, and
then going back and referencingthe infographic, that's kind of
how I was introduced to it, too.
But it was nice because it gaveus a talking point. Didn't it?
Structured literacy kind of gaveyou a talking point and a place
to start. Did you guys findyourselves using it ever when
(07:27):
people would say, Oh, well, sowhat's so different about what
you do or what you think aboutreading? Did that term come in
handy at all?
Lindsay Kemeny (07:36):
Yeah, definitely. Especially when we
say, you know, you know, whatwas I doing before balance
literacy and it, you know, butit really gives you a map. And I
remember if I felt like that, itkind of gave me this map of what
I was supposed to be doing,yeah,
Donell Pons (07:52):
and Stacy, we've used it sometimes when we have
been talking to folks at ourState Office of Education,
haven't we? It's been helpful
Stacy Hurst (07:59):
there, yeah, especially to focus on the word
structure, because English has astructure. And I think in the
the issue it mentions it's astructure within a structure
within a structure, right? Andit does, like Lindsay mentioned,
give you really good clarityaround having conversations
about what that instructionlooks like and why it's
(08:22):
important.
Donell Pons (08:22):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's so great. We'vejust kind of stopped her a
minute and had a chit chat aboutstructured literacy, just to get
our listeners you know this isif you're unfamiliar, it's okay,
and to kind of think about okay,what are my own thoughts on
structured literacy? What have Ithought and then how that might
be enhanced or change as you'relistening to the podcast this
season? That's what we're hopingthat this does, is maybe
broadens, expands and even givessome talking points for some
(08:45):
folks that maybe don't reallyunderstand or you want to share
this with, or you think it wouldbe helpful. So just thinking of
different ways in which the termstructured literacy and what
you're going to come to find outfrom these experts and others
that we're going to be listeningto how that might be helpful in
whatever it is you're doing. Ithink it's really helpful with a
lot of the work we do withadvocacy, because structured
(09:05):
literacy, as you guys havehelped pointed out, so Well,
it's a really good way oftalking about the structure of
how we do things. So ifsomeone's really unfamiliar, it
gives you a great baseline tostart from. Well, it's explicit,
it's systematic. It follows asequence. It starts typically
from things that are thefoundational, easiest skills,
and we build from there on it.
(09:28):
It's mastery based. There'sdiagnostic to it. So all those
really key, important parts arewithin that definition. See if
there was real wisdom in puttingit together. I'm in awe, aren't
you guys, of the folks that cameup with the term and sat around
the table and came up with this.
So we talked about some of thekey takeaways that we're going
to have from what we're chattingabout, and we're hopefully going
(09:49):
to do a deep dive. And the firstone we thought we'd dive into is
there is a first article, andit's not the only one, but
Barbara Wilson and. And anotherindividual, Jessica Hammond, who
is the founder of gleaneducation, of course, Barbara
Wilson, we all know from theWilson reading and spelling
system, they have kind of cometogether and done a little
(10:09):
article, one of the firstarticles, and it's kind of an
introduction into what we'regoing to see with the rest of
the IDA. And what's interestingis, I thought one of their first
lines out of it, it was, it itwas, it was important enough
that I kind of underlined it andsaid, Oh, I'm going to, I'm
going to share this one rightdirectly from the book. But in
this article, the two of themtogether, it says, Introduction
to structured literacy andapproach grounded in the science
(10:30):
of reading. You'll hear that alot. It's helping you understand
the components of the science ofreading. That first paragraph,
structured literacy and thescience of reading are part of a
growing national conversation onliteracy instruction best
practices for some educators,structured literacy instruction
an approach grounded in thescience of reading. See it
again, they're going to say thatscience of reading, a lot,
science of reading researchbase, has been part of their
(10:52):
practice for decades. So we'reacknowledging that a lot of
folks this isn't newinformation. For others, the
approach is a shift away fromprevious practices. To support
this shift, educators mustunderstand what it looks like
and how to implement it in theirclassrooms. So, you know, we're
going to be getting a reallynice, great, deep dive into what
this is, and I love that theyset it out for educators. Right?
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Stacy Hurst (11:58):
I appreciated that they clarify. It's an approach
and that helps it fit into Imentioned earlier, when you
asked about our firstexperiences with the term, and I
was confused. How does it differfrom the science of reading?
What's an approach that we useto implement what we learn from
the science of reading? Iappreciated that they gave it a
(12:20):
term. They also the the graphicthat you two have both referred
to. They also name that which ishelpful, so they refer to it as
an info map. And they do thatright away, too. I appreciated
those call outs.
Lindsay Kemeny (12:35):
One small thing I really like that they added
when they said, you know,structured literacy is an
approach grounded in the scienceof reading, research base. I
like that they just added thosetwo words, research base,
because there's so muchconfusion about what the science
of reading is. And I think it'sthis reminder to the reader
(12:57):
reading the article, that whenwe're saying the science of
reading, we're just talkingabout the research base. So I
think that's good to remember.
You know what it is, and this isstructured literacy is, you
know, based on that research,they're connected. They're
integrated together. And then Ilove that they said educators
(13:19):
must understand what it lookslike and how to implement it in
the classrooms. And isn't thatwhat we've been talking about a
lot on our podcast, is thisimplementation science and how
really we need to turn a lotmore attention and focus there.
And so I appreciate they saidthat, because it's so true. We
need to, we need to understandwhat it looks like. And
(13:41):
hopefully, as we're, you know,embarking on reading this whole
edition, this season, thisedition of perspectives, and
talking about each component,kind of breaking it down,
hopefully that will help usunderstand what it looks like.
You
Donell Pons (14:00):
know, Lindsay, that's a really good point, and
I appreciate you going back andpicking up those words again,
because they are very, veryclear. And that's one thing I'm
hoping our listeners will alsopick up on, is the fact that,
hey, it seems like they're,they're being so attentive to
saying these things over againand using them here. But that's
really intentional, is to makesure we're very clear about how
(14:22):
things fit together and how theysupport each other. And that I
really appreciated, as you'vepointed out just in this
article, and you'll see itthroughout the publication, it's
another thing that's reallygreat. I'm going to read a
little bit more, and I want youguys to respond because I think
this is also interesting. Itcontinues in the second
paragraph and says, in responseto this, that is how to support
that shift for educators whowant to understand what it's
(14:43):
like and what it looks like inthe classroom. In response to
this, the International DyslexiaAssociation is taking several
steps to establish a commonlanguage and framework around
the approach to unify thediscussion and move the field
forward. What do you think ofthat sentence?
Stacy Hurst (14:59):
Well, the. It really resonated with me is move
the field forward. I love thatelevating teaching as a
profession, I think, is a veryworthwhile goal. I love this
Lindsay Kemeny (15:14):
idea of being unified, and I think a lot of us
are especially, you know, inthis science of reading
community that we have, we areunited in purpose, and we feel
that when we go to differentconferences, you know, the three
of us have talked about that, welove that, but we have a lot of
attacks happening on both sides.
And I really would love to seeyou know both sides of the
(15:37):
issue, all of us become moreunified in purpose. What do we
want? We want all our studentsto be able to read and write,
and let's keep that you know, atthe forefront and work together
to make that happen. I you knowit's easier said than done, but
(15:58):
I like that call forunification.
Stacy Hurst (16:02):
And you know, not only, of like Donald you said
earlier, integrating all of thethe elements or structures that
we need to attend to aninstruction, but Lindsay, what
you're talking about as well, Ifeel like reminds me of, well,
it calls my attention to the waythey artfully did not dismiss
the system which in we whereinwe apply these things, right? So
(16:28):
when you're talking about beingunified, I was 100% agreeing
with you and thinking also withpeople who are responsible for
implementation, whether that'san administrator or support
staff, it will help, I think,really provide a common language
and vision,
Donell Pons (16:46):
and the wisdom of having something so well put
together as structured literacyand with the talking points way
and the way that it supportsitself, so you can engage in
these conversations, as you'resaying, with everyone within a
school system, right? So reallyappreciated that. Thought it was
great. And I love that Barbaraand and her cohort here, Jessica
Hammond, led with that in thislittle piece here about the
(17:07):
introduction too, because itgives us the whole understanding
a good base to go. Yeah, I'mreally excited about the rest of
this, and potentially the thingsthat I might be able to take
back have discussion. And as wesay, move the work forward
right. There was other,something else I had on here is
they go and lay out who's goingto be in the publication. I tell
you, it's a who's who. That'swhy we're really excited,
(17:28):
because there's a lot of greatcontributors to this particular
perspectives edition. And so itlays out that we're going to get
some some information about thewhy, and that's going to be
delivered by Corinne Weaver inhere. He's talking within it as
well. And then we're going to begetting a lot of information
about the what and the how andthe who, as I said, Barbara
(17:50):
Wilson will appear again as shetalks about the infographic.
Stacey has talked about having agood visual, so for folks who
like to see it visually, thatwill be nice. And then we have
Lynnea Erie, who's going toweigh in, and it's always good
to hear again, some of thoseprinciples that maybe we're
familiar with, but she hits themagain with phonemic awareness
particularly. And Dr Louise Veraswirling is in here too, which I
(18:11):
She's one of my unsung heroes. Idon't know. It's been a while
since I've heard from her orseen something, but every time
she delivers, do you guys feelthe same way?
Stacy Hurst (18:19):
Yes, I think she is one of those, those
professionals that have animpact on our lives that we
don't even realize. Aseducators, I know she was very
central to my research for mymaster's thesis, but as I have
only continued to read her work,I think, Oh, my goodness, she
(18:41):
was calling this out. She wasdrawing our attention to this
decades ago, right?
Donell Pons (18:45):
And she, I remember, she wanted one of the
foundational articles thatshowed us the difference between
structured literacy and maybebusiness as usual or a whole
language approach. And she laidit out very clearly and
concisely. Did such a fantasticjob with it. I used it so many
times as a talking point. That'sgot to be at least 10 years ago.
So like you say, have beenaround doing this for a long
time. Have been in the fieldtalking. So that'll be great to
(19:06):
hear more from her, Dr Louis DrLouise spear swirling. And then
we're also going to have somewords from Dr David Hereford,
who's one of the editors inchief of this publication,
perspective, and hear about histhoughts about how they came to
this terminology, and then alsosome other really good
information. He's got it withthe work that he does around
students who have dyslexia andlearning more. So I think it's
(19:29):
packed. It's media. Are you guysexcited? I'm very excited. I'm
really
Lindsay Kemeny (19:33):
excited, and on what we were just talking about.
I'm just so grateful for thesepeople who have been doing this
work, researching and sharingtheir research for decades. I'm
sure it's frustrating to them.
You know that we haven't seenmore movement, and I'm excited
that now, you know we have a lotof national attention on this,
and I hope it really moves thework forward. But I'm just so
(19:56):
incredibly. Thankful for, youknow, these literacy pioneers
and these, these, theseindividuals who have been doing
this for a long time anddedicating, you know, so much
time to it. We can learn so muchfrom them. And yes, I'm excited.
So this, we just talked today.
(20:17):
We're just talking about this.
It's introduction to structuredliteracy, right this article,
and we would love everyone toread along with us. So we assume
this is our first one. We knowyou haven't read anything yet,
but we'd say, you know, startwith this introduction we just
talked about today. And then,like Donnell said, there's the
other one by David Hereford andCarolyn Cohen, which is also an
(20:41):
introduction. Structuredliteracy prevents reading
failure, right? So we wouldrecommend reading that one
before our next episode. Yeah,
Donell Pons (20:51):
with David. And then also it might be this
season. If you haven'tsubscribed to get those episodes
coming to you, this might be theseason you want to do that,
because if you're in with thefirst one. They're all just
going to support each other. Itmight be that time that you say,
I, you know, I haven't typicallysubscribed, but this year, I
think I want to get those inorder. So try that also, to keep
yourself on a schedule, to makesure you're getting the next
(21:12):
episode if you're followingalong, that ought to help too,
because we will be doing that inan order this year.
Lindsay Kemeny (21:17):
When Donnell, have we shared, did you mention
where our listeners can find theperspectives issue,
Donell Pons (21:25):
yeah, so the International Dyslexia
Association website, and you cango there and access this
perspective 75th anniversaryedition, and
Lindsay Kemeny (21:33):
it's wonderful.
They made it available for free,because normally for
perspectives, it's available tothose who have a paid membership
to Ida, right? But this one big,75th one is free to everyone,
which we thought this would beperfect for our season, because
you can just go and download acopy.
Stacy Hurst (21:52):
I'm also really excited about it, because not
only does it encapsulate all ofstructured literacy, which is
clearly what our podcast addressevery episode, but also, you
know, just beckoning back toLouise spear swirling work, she
was one of the first people tokind of highlight the difference
(22:13):
between teacher knowledge andstudent outcomes, and the fact
that you can't do either withoutimplementation, right? So one of
the tenets of our podcast isthat we're all in all three of
us currently are in differentspaces in the literacy context,
but I love that this issue willaddress no matter what your role
(22:37):
is in education. Then we canincrease our knowledge, but also
improve our practice and helpmove the work forward. As they
say, Yeah,
Donell Pons (22:47):
I love that. And the talking points, right? This
is a really excellent to groundyourself in the structured
literacy as a talking point whenyou're having conversations
around the work, it's fantasticevery time. Great. Well, I'm
excited. I'm very excited forthe season to get rolling, and
we've already been doing somebehind the scenes work, so
that'll be really nice to beable to share that with
everybody, because we've been,we've been sitting on this for a
(23:08):
little while, just knowing thatwe wanted to do this, and so
being able to share it, it'sfinally coming true for us. And
as Lindsay said, she's givingyou some options about how to
download those articles. Butagain, if you're unable to, and
you don't have time, you don'tnecessarily have to, because we
will be having really goodinterviews with folks sharing
information. So don't feel like,Oh, I haven't, haven't been able
to read, so I won't be able toknow. You'll still get a lot out
(23:30):
of each episode. And then we'vealso encouraged you, folks, if
you haven't subscribed in thepast, maybe this is the season
you want to to make sure thoseepisodes come to you in order,
because they will support eachother as it goes through the
publication. Just a couple ofthoughts for enjoying this
season, this year with us. Andagain, we want to thank
everybody. This is really thiscurated season, because that's
really what it is, is that we'vereally thought about it and
(23:50):
curated it, and not that wedon't other seasons too, but
we've really intentionally setthis out to build on itself for
the season is really our hope.
It's something that we want toprovide to our listeners,
because you've been such greatlisteners, and we feel like this
is a really great way to embracefolks that maybe have a
different background and theydon't know as much, and getting
some basics of structuredliteracy be nice, a refresher
for those of us who know, andalso a way in which we, if we've
(24:13):
known it for a long time,another perspective to look at
it with some new materials thatare coming from the
International DyslexiaAssociation to support it. So we
thought it was a really goodchoice this season. We hope you
guys enjoy it too. We'reexcited, yeah,
Stacy Hurst (24:27):
and even if you're just refining your knowledge
right and improving how you'reimplementing these things, one
thing to note, so I'm glad youbrought that up, is that this
will be a little bit differentof a format for us, because we
don't have too many guests onour podcast, but you'll see many
more guests this this season. Ialmost said semester, which I'll
(24:49):
tell you where my mind is thisseason, and we're really excited
about that too, and we'll
Lindsay Kemeny (24:56):
be following once you get your perspectives
edition that will be. Followingthat order. So we have today's
an introduction. Our nextepisode is going to be an
introduction as well, with withDavid Hereford, and then we're
just following, if you kind oflook at the table of contents
there, we're going to be talkingabout why we're going to have an
episode, why? Structuredliteracy. We're going to be
(25:17):
talking about the what ofstructured literacy, the how and
the who. So it's going to be agreat, great season. Yeah, thank
you
Stacy Hurst (25:28):
again, Donnell for bringing the idea to us, and we
were so excited to readilyembrace that it's great. So
yeah, we're looking forward to anew season. Thank you for
joining us as ever, and we lookforward to having you join us
for more episodes of literacytalks,
Narrator (25:48):
thanks for joining us today. Literacy talks comes to
you from Reading Horizons, whereliteracy momentum begins, visit
Reading horizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and
resources to support yourjourney in the science of
reading. You.
Welcome to literacy talks, the podcast for literacy
leaders and championseverywhere, brought to you by
Reading Horizons. Literacy talksis the place to discover new
ideas, trends, insights andpractical strategies for helping
all learners reach readingproficiency. Our hosts are
Stacey Hurst, a professor atSouthern Utah University and
(00:26):
Chief Academic Advisor forReading Horizons. Donnell pons,
a recognized expert and advocatein literacy, dyslexia and
special education, and LindsayKemeny, an elementary classroom
teacher, author and speaker. Nowlet's talk literacy.
Donell Pons (00:47):
Welcome to this special season of the literacy
talks podcast, where we delveinto the 75th anniversary issue
of the International DyslexiaAssociation's perspectives on
language and literacy. Thislandmark issue is dedicated to
structured literacy, the mosteffective approach for teaching
all students to read and spell,including those with learning
difficulties. We will also betalking to professionals in the
(01:10):
field to get their understandingof structured literacy. In this
episode, we'll be focusing onthe foundational elements of
structured literacy and what itmeans to teach in this way with
research and evidence base asyour practices, structured
literacy embodies thoseprinciples that we know are good
for all students that isexplicit, systematic
instruction. Throughout thisseason, we'll unpack the core
(01:32):
components of structuredliteracy, discuss its practical
applications, and hear fromleading voices in the field,
whether you're an educator,parent, or simply interested in
effective literacy instruction,this episode and the season will
provide valuable insights andinspire you to champion
structured literacy. Welcome
Stacy Hurst (01:51):
to the first episode of our new season of
literacy Talks. My name is StacyHurst, and I'm joined by Lindsay
Kemeny and Donnell pons, andthis is our season intro, and it
is a very exciting season. AndI'm giving all the credit to
Donnell for coming up with theidea. So Donnell, I'm actually
(02:14):
giving you the credit and themic. Do you want to lead us into
this season? Oh,
Donell Pons (02:20):
great. And then I'm going to have to confess this
was fully baked and ready to goby the International Dyslexia
Association in theirperspectives publication. So I
thank them for providing such agreat publication, and that also
gives our listeners a little bitof a hint. So being able to
access, or get their hands on acopy online of perspectives, the
75th anniversary edition. We'llreally be focusing on a lot of
(02:44):
the pieces that are in there forthis coming season. And so we'll
also hit that up again to remindyou, if you want to actually
look at it, but we have somereally good interviews. We'll
have some good conversations.
And so even if you don't have anopportunity to read it, you're
really busy, you haven't beenable to access Don't worry,
tuning in, you'll still have alot that you'll be able to dive
into just listening. So again,if you can get your hands on it,
(03:05):
fantastic. If not, do not worry.
We're going to provide a lot ofinsight for you, an opportunity
to listen to a lot of differenttopics surrounding structured
literacy, which is going to bethe year, as Stacy said, our
season really going to take adeep dive. And as I mentioned
before, the InternationalDyslexia Association chose to
(03:25):
focus, for its 75th anniversary,which was a nice celebration for
them, chose to focus onstructured literacy. And so the
entire publication does justthat, and they speak with a lot
of really great people in thefield who have taken some time
to write, to be concise abouttheir thoughts and feelings on
structured literacy, and it'sall around the who, what, where,
(03:46):
why, how, that stuff that welove and that we need. So I
think educators are just goingto love it. And the other thing
is, is that this is really aconversation. So we we fully
intend to kind of stop have achit chat about things, because
that's the way we do things, andalso to talk about how it
impacts each of us in ourdifferent settings. So that'll
be important as well. And we'realso going to provide, you know,
(04:09):
not only that, definition ofstructured literacy for our
listeners who are out theregoing, Hey, wait a minute. I'm
not familiar with that term,although I assume a lot are, so
I'm not assuming you don't know,but structured literacy is
really a trademark term by theInternational Dyslexia
Association, and this came aboutin about 2014 so it's been
around for a while, and it wasreally a way of having folks who
(04:30):
are in the field all workingaround this thing we call the
science of reading, coalescingaround some some good,
significant things we take outof the science of reading about
teaching what good readinginstruction looks like. So
that's what we're talking aboutwhen we talk about structured
literacy, and it's the mosteffective approach, not just for
students who experiencedifficulties with reading, like
(04:51):
our folks who have dyslexia. Soyou might have heard it there
those areas, but it's also forall students. We found that they
can all get a boost from theirreading instruction. And when
using these principles ofstructured literacy. And so
we'll talk a little bit aboutthat. I was just going to ask
Stacy and Lindsay, do you guysremember the first time you
heard the term structuredliteracy? I
Stacy Hurst (05:11):
don't remember the exact date, but I do remember. I
do remember actually wonderingwhat it meant. And I think it
kind of came about around thesame time as we started using
science of reading as a phraseubiquitously. I do remember
wondering the difference betweenthe two. Yeah, I
Lindsay Kemeny (05:32):
first heard of it when around when my son was
diagnosed, a little bit after itmight have been, you know, up
maybe six months after he wasdiagnosed, when I really learned
what it was. And I don't thinkwe were using the term science
of reading then, because I feellike that came a little bit
later, or at least for me, forwhen I was aware of it. But, and
(05:54):
you know, really, because my sonwas diagnosed with dyslexia,
that took me on my journey tothe IDA. And the IDA, as you
mentioned, Donnell is who coinedthe term structured literacy. So
and then I had an OrtonGillingham training, you know,
pretty early on in my journey,maybe a year after he was
(06:16):
diagnosed. And and, of course,they use the term structured
literacy quite a bit. Yeah,
Donell Pons (06:23):
you know, it's interesting, because, as you
say, each of us kind of has adifferent and Stacy. You
couldn't remember the exactdate, but you kind of think, oh,
maybe it came around this timeperiod. I think for all of us,
it's kind of like, that's littlehazy. We don't know the exact
time period when we came incontact with certain things. But
I think for me too, Lindsay, itwas in a training I think that's
when I and it was Wilson readingand spelling, and it was in that
(06:43):
training I'm hearing this termstructured literacy tossed
around a little bit. And then indifferent settings, I'd hear
some people chit chatting, andthey've mentioned the term
structured literacy. Sometimesat a conference, you might hear
it dropped in. And then I waskind of surprised that as I made
my way to the IDA website andwas cruising around on the info
sheets that they had, there wasa graphic, and looking at this
graphic and wondering, okay,that's really interesting. So
(07:06):
where does this fit? Andreferring to it that way from
time to time, for what I wasgathering, the information I was
gathering in conferences andthings and in my settings, and
then going back and referencingthe infographic, that's kind of
how I was introduced to it, too.
But it was nice because it gaveus a talking point. Didn't it?
Structured literacy kind of gaveyou a talking point and a place
to start. Did you guys findyourselves using it ever when
(07:27):
people would say, Oh, well, sowhat's so different about what
you do or what you think aboutreading? Did that term come in
handy at all?
Lindsay Kemeny (07:36):
Yeah, definitely. Especially when we
say, you know, you know, whatwas I doing before balance
literacy and it, you know, butit really gives you a map. And I
remember if I felt like that, itkind of gave me this map of what
I was supposed to be doing,yeah,
Donell Pons (07:52):
and Stacy, we've used it sometimes when we have
been talking to folks at ourState Office of Education,
haven't we? It's been helpful
Stacy Hurst (07:59):
there, yeah, especially to focus on the word
structure, because English has astructure. And I think in the
the issue it mentions it's astructure within a structure
within a structure, right? Andit does, like Lindsay mentioned,
give you really good clarityaround having conversations
about what that instructionlooks like and why it's
(08:22):
important.
Donell Pons (08:22):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's so great. We'vejust kind of stopped her a
minute and had a chit chat aboutstructured literacy, just to get
our listeners you know this isif you're unfamiliar, it's okay,
and to kind of think about okay,what are my own thoughts on
structured literacy? What have Ithought and then how that might
be enhanced or change as you'relistening to the podcast this
season? That's what we're hopingthat this does, is maybe
broadens, expands and even givessome talking points for some
(08:45):
folks that maybe don't reallyunderstand or you want to share
this with, or you think it wouldbe helpful. So just thinking of
different ways in which the termstructured literacy and what
you're going to come to find outfrom these experts and others
that we're going to be listeningto how that might be helpful in
whatever it is you're doing. Ithink it's really helpful with a
lot of the work we do withadvocacy, because structured
(09:05):
literacy, as you guys havehelped pointed out, so Well,
it's a really good way oftalking about the structure of
how we do things. So ifsomeone's really unfamiliar, it
gives you a great baseline tostart from. Well, it's explicit,
it's systematic. It follows asequence. It starts typically
from things that are thefoundational, easiest skills,
and we build from there on it.
(09:28):
It's mastery based. There'sdiagnostic to it. So all those
really key, important parts arewithin that definition. See if
there was real wisdom in puttingit together. I'm in awe, aren't
you guys, of the folks that cameup with the term and sat around
the table and came up with this.
So we talked about some of thekey takeaways that we're going
to have from what we're chattingabout, and we're hopefully going
(09:49):
to do a deep dive. And the firstone we thought we'd dive into is
there is a first article, andit's not the only one, but
Barbara Wilson and. And anotherindividual, Jessica Hammond, who
is the founder of gleaneducation, of course, Barbara
Wilson, we all know from theWilson reading and spelling
system, they have kind of cometogether and done a little
(10:09):
article, one of the firstarticles, and it's kind of an
introduction into what we'regoing to see with the rest of
the IDA. And what's interestingis, I thought one of their first
lines out of it, it was, it itwas, it was important enough
that I kind of underlined it andsaid, Oh, I'm going to, I'm
going to share this one rightdirectly from the book. But in
this article, the two of themtogether, it says, Introduction
to structured literacy andapproach grounded in the science
(10:30):
of reading. You'll hear that alot. It's helping you understand
the components of the science ofreading. That first paragraph,
structured literacy and thescience of reading are part of a
growing national conversation onliteracy instruction best
practices for some educators,structured literacy instruction
an approach grounded in thescience of reading. See it
again, they're going to say thatscience of reading, a lot,
science of reading researchbase, has been part of their
(10:52):
practice for decades. So we'reacknowledging that a lot of
folks this isn't newinformation. For others, the
approach is a shift away fromprevious practices. To support
this shift, educators mustunderstand what it looks like
and how to implement it in theirclassrooms. So, you know, we're
going to be getting a reallynice, great, deep dive into what
this is, and I love that theyset it out for educators. Right?
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(11:37):
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Stacy Hurst (11:58):
I appreciated that they clarify. It's an approach
and that helps it fit into Imentioned earlier, when you
asked about our firstexperiences with the term, and I
was confused. How does it differfrom the science of reading?
What's an approach that we useto implement what we learn from
the science of reading? Iappreciated that they gave it a
(12:20):
term. They also the the graphicthat you two have both referred
to. They also name that which ishelpful, so they refer to it as
an info map. And they do thatright away, too. I appreciated
those call outs.
Lindsay Kemeny (12:35):
One small thing I really like that they added
when they said, you know,structured literacy is an
approach grounded in the scienceof reading, research base. I
like that they just added thosetwo words, research base,
because there's so muchconfusion about what the science
of reading is. And I think it'sthis reminder to the reader
(12:57):
reading the article, that whenwe're saying the science of
reading, we're just talkingabout the research base. So I
think that's good to remember.
You know what it is, and this isstructured literacy is, you
know, based on that research,they're connected. They're
integrated together. And then Ilove that they said educators
(13:19):
must understand what it lookslike and how to implement it in
the classrooms. And isn't thatwhat we've been talking about a
lot on our podcast, is thisimplementation science and how
really we need to turn a lotmore attention and focus there.
And so I appreciate they saidthat, because it's so true. We
need to, we need to understandwhat it looks like. And
(13:41):
hopefully, as we're, you know,embarking on reading this whole
edition, this season, thisedition of perspectives, and
talking about each component,kind of breaking it down,
hopefully that will help usunderstand what it looks like.
You
Donell Pons (14:00):
know, Lindsay, that's a really good point, and
I appreciate you going back andpicking up those words again,
because they are very, veryclear. And that's one thing I'm
hoping our listeners will alsopick up on, is the fact that,
hey, it seems like they're,they're being so attentive to
saying these things over againand using them here. But that's
really intentional, is to makesure we're very clear about how
(14:22):
things fit together and how theysupport each other. And that I
really appreciated, as you'vepointed out just in this
article, and you'll see itthroughout the publication, it's
another thing that's reallygreat. I'm going to read a
little bit more, and I want youguys to respond because I think
this is also interesting. Itcontinues in the second
paragraph and says, in responseto this, that is how to support
that shift for educators whowant to understand what it's
(14:43):
like and what it looks like inthe classroom. In response to
this, the International DyslexiaAssociation is taking several
steps to establish a commonlanguage and framework around
the approach to unify thediscussion and move the field
forward. What do you think ofthat sentence?
Stacy Hurst (14:59):
Well, the. It really resonated with me is move
the field forward. I love thatelevating teaching as a
profession, I think, is a veryworthwhile goal. I love this
Lindsay Kemeny (15:14):
idea of being unified, and I think a lot of us
are especially, you know, inthis science of reading
community that we have, we areunited in purpose, and we feel
that when we go to differentconferences, you know, the three
of us have talked about that, welove that, but we have a lot of
attacks happening on both sides.
And I really would love to seeyou know both sides of the
(15:37):
issue, all of us become moreunified in purpose. What do we
want? We want all our studentsto be able to read and write,
and let's keep that you know, atthe forefront and work together
to make that happen. I you knowit's easier said than done, but
(15:58):
I like that call forunification.
Stacy Hurst (16:02):
And you know, not only, of like Donald you said
earlier, integrating all of thethe elements or structures that
we need to attend to aninstruction, but Lindsay, what
you're talking about as well, Ifeel like reminds me of, well,
it calls my attention to the waythey artfully did not dismiss
the system which in we whereinwe apply these things, right? So
(16:28):
when you're talking about beingunified, I was 100% agreeing
with you and thinking also withpeople who are responsible for
implementation, whether that'san administrator or support
staff, it will help, I think,really provide a common language
and vision,
Donell Pons (16:46):
and the wisdom of having something so well put
together as structured literacyand with the talking points way
and the way that it supportsitself, so you can engage in
these conversations, as you'resaying, with everyone within a
school system, right? So reallyappreciated that. Thought it was
great. And I love that Barbaraand and her cohort here, Jessica
Hammond, led with that in thislittle piece here about the
(17:07):
introduction too, because itgives us the whole understanding
a good base to go. Yeah, I'mreally excited about the rest of
this, and potentially the thingsthat I might be able to take
back have discussion. And as wesay, move the work forward
right. There was other,something else I had on here is
they go and lay out who's goingto be in the publication. I tell
you, it's a who's who. That'swhy we're really excited,
(17:28):
because there's a lot of greatcontributors to this particular
perspectives edition. And so itlays out that we're going to get
some some information about thewhy, and that's going to be
delivered by Corinne Weaver inhere. He's talking within it as
well. And then we're going to begetting a lot of information
about the what and the how andthe who, as I said, Barbara
(17:50):
Wilson will appear again as shetalks about the infographic.
Stacey has talked about having agood visual, so for folks who
like to see it visually, thatwill be nice. And then we have
Lynnea Erie, who's going toweigh in, and it's always good
to hear again, some of thoseprinciples that maybe we're
familiar with, but she hits themagain with phonemic awareness
particularly. And Dr Louise Veraswirling is in here too, which I
(18:11):
She's one of my unsung heroes. Idon't know. It's been a while
since I've heard from her orseen something, but every time
she delivers, do you guys feelthe same way?
Stacy Hurst (18:19):
Yes, I think she is one of those, those
professionals that have animpact on our lives that we
don't even realize. Aseducators, I know she was very
central to my research for mymaster's thesis, but as I have
only continued to read her work,I think, Oh, my goodness, she
(18:41):
was calling this out. She wasdrawing our attention to this
decades ago, right?
Donell Pons (18:45):
And she, I remember, she wanted one of the
foundational articles thatshowed us the difference between
structured literacy and maybebusiness as usual or a whole
language approach. And she laidit out very clearly and
concisely. Did such a fantasticjob with it. I used it so many
times as a talking point. That'sgot to be at least 10 years ago.
So like you say, have beenaround doing this for a long
time. Have been in the fieldtalking. So that'll be great to
(19:06):
hear more from her, Dr Louis DrLouise spear swirling. And then
we're also going to have somewords from Dr David Hereford,
who's one of the editors inchief of this publication,
perspective, and hear about histhoughts about how they came to
this terminology, and then alsosome other really good
information. He's got it withthe work that he does around
students who have dyslexia andlearning more. So I think it's
(19:29):
packed. It's media. Are you guysexcited? I'm very excited. I'm
really
Lindsay Kemeny (19:33):
excited, and on what we were just talking about.
I'm just so grateful for thesepeople who have been doing this
work, researching and sharingtheir research for decades. I'm
sure it's frustrating to them.
You know that we haven't seenmore movement, and I'm excited
that now, you know we have a lotof national attention on this,
and I hope it really moves thework forward. But I'm just so
(19:56):
incredibly. Thankful for, youknow, these literacy pioneers
and these, these, theseindividuals who have been doing
this for a long time anddedicating, you know, so much
time to it. We can learn so muchfrom them. And yes, I'm excited.
So this, we just talked today.
(20:17):
We're just talking about this.
It's introduction to structuredliteracy, right this article,
and we would love everyone toread along with us. So we assume
this is our first one. We knowyou haven't read anything yet,
but we'd say, you know, startwith this introduction we just
talked about today. And then,like Donnell said, there's the
other one by David Hereford andCarolyn Cohen, which is also an
(20:41):
introduction. Structuredliteracy prevents reading
failure, right? So we wouldrecommend reading that one
before our next episode. Yeah,
Donell Pons (20:51):
with David. And then also it might be this
season. If you haven'tsubscribed to get those episodes
coming to you, this might be theseason you want to do that,
because if you're in with thefirst one. They're all just
going to support each other. Itmight be that time that you say,
I, you know, I haven't typicallysubscribed, but this year, I
think I want to get those inorder. So try that also, to keep
yourself on a schedule, to makesure you're getting the next
(21:12):
episode if you're followingalong, that ought to help too,
because we will be doing that inan order this year.
Lindsay Kemeny (21:17):
When Donnell, have we shared, did you mention
where our listeners can find theperspectives issue,
Donell Pons (21:25):
yeah, so the International Dyslexia
Association website, and you cango there and access this
perspective 75th anniversaryedition, and
Lindsay Kemeny (21:33):
it's wonderful.
They made it available for free,because normally for
perspectives, it's available tothose who have a paid membership
to Ida, right? But this one big,75th one is free to everyone,
which we thought this would beperfect for our season, because
you can just go and download acopy.
Stacy Hurst (21:52):
I'm also really excited about it, because not
only does it encapsulate all ofstructured literacy, which is
clearly what our podcast addressevery episode, but also, you
know, just beckoning back toLouise spear swirling work, she
was one of the first people tokind of highlight the difference
(22:13):
between teacher knowledge andstudent outcomes, and the fact
that you can't do either withoutimplementation, right? So one of
the tenets of our podcast isthat we're all in all three of
us currently are in differentspaces in the literacy context,
but I love that this issue willaddress no matter what your role
(22:37):
is in education. Then we canincrease our knowledge, but also
improve our practice and helpmove the work forward. As they
say, Yeah,
Donell Pons (22:47):
I love that. And the talking points, right? This
is a really excellent to groundyourself in the structured
literacy as a talking point whenyou're having conversations
around the work, it's fantasticevery time. Great. Well, I'm
excited. I'm very excited forthe season to get rolling, and
we've already been doing somebehind the scenes work, so
that'll be really nice to beable to share that with
everybody, because we've been,we've been sitting on this for a
(23:08):
little while, just knowing thatwe wanted to do this, and so
being able to share it, it'sfinally coming true for us. And
as Lindsay said, she's givingyou some options about how to
download those articles. Butagain, if you're unable to, and
you don't have time, you don'tnecessarily have to, because we
will be having really goodinterviews with folks sharing
information. So don't feel like,Oh, I haven't, haven't been able
to read, so I won't be able toknow. You'll still get a lot out
(23:30):
of each episode. And then we'vealso encouraged you, folks, if
you haven't subscribed in thepast, maybe this is the season
you want to to make sure thoseepisodes come to you in order,
because they will support eachother as it goes through the
publication. Just a couple ofthoughts for enjoying this
season, this year with us. Andagain, we want to thank
everybody. This is really thiscurated season, because that's
really what it is, is that we'vereally thought about it and
(23:50):
curated it, and not that wedon't other seasons too, but
we've really intentionally setthis out to build on itself for
the season is really our hope.
It's something that we want toprovide to our listeners,
because you've been such greatlisteners, and we feel like this
is a really great way to embracefolks that maybe have a
different background and theydon't know as much, and getting
some basics of structuredliteracy be nice, a refresher
for those of us who know, andalso a way in which we, if we've
(24:13):
known it for a long time,another perspective to look at
it with some new materials thatare coming from the
International DyslexiaAssociation to support it. So we
thought it was a really goodchoice this season. We hope you
guys enjoy it too. We'reexcited, yeah,
Stacy Hurst (24:27):
and even if you're just refining your knowledge
right and improving how you'reimplementing these things, one
thing to note, so I'm glad youbrought that up, is that this
will be a little bit differentof a format for us, because we
don't have too many guests onour podcast, but you'll see many
more guests this this season. Ialmost said semester, which I'll
(24:49):
tell you where my mind is thisseason, and we're really excited
about that too, and we'll
Lindsay Kemeny (24:56):
be following once you get your perspectives
edition that will be. Followingthat order. So we have today's
an introduction. Our nextepisode is going to be an
introduction as well, with withDavid Hereford, and then we're
just following, if you kind oflook at the table of contents
there, we're going to be talkingabout why we're going to have an
episode, why? Structuredliteracy. We're going to be
(25:17):
talking about the what ofstructured literacy, the how and
the who. So it's going to be agreat, great season. Yeah, thank
you
Stacy Hurst (25:28):
again, Donnell for bringing the idea to us, and we
were so excited to readilyembrace that it's great. So
yeah, we're looking forward to anew season. Thank you for
joining us as ever, and we lookforward to having you join us
for more episodes of literacytalks,
Narrator (25:48):
thanks for joining us today. Literacy talks comes to
you from Reading Horizons, whereliteracy momentum begins, visit
Reading horizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and
resources to support yourjourney in the science of
reading. You.
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