Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Narrator (00:03):
Welcome to literacy
talks, the podcast for literacy
leaders and championseverywhere, brought to you by
Reading Horizons. Literacy talksis the place to discover new
ideas, trends, insights andpractical strategies for helping
all learners reach readingproficiency. Our hosts are Stacy
Hurst, a professor at SouthernUtah University and Chief
(00:27):
Academic Advisor for ReadingHorizons. Donell Pons, a
recognized expert and advocatein literacy, dyslexia and
special education, and LindsayKemeny, an elementary classroom
teacher, author and speaker. Nowlet's talk literacy.
Stacy Hurst (00:46):
Welcome to this
episode of literacy talks. I'm
Stacy Hurst, and I'm joined byDonell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny.
And if you've been listening toour podcast for a while, you
know that when we don't have aguest, we take turns choosing
the topic. And this week, it isa topic that I'm so looking
forward to discussing, Donellchose it. So we're going to let
(01:09):
her lead the conversation, andwe won't waste any more time.
Just turn it right over to you,Donell. Let's chat. Okay, thank
you.
Donell Pons (01:18):
Alrighty. So I'm
going to admit that the title
was click bait to kind of get usin. I don't know if there any is
any great debate occurring, butmaybe there is in your
community, it's more of aconversation, and it's more that
some things have come up andit's gotten people talking. And
so, you know, may or may not bea debate we'll see. So we'll
(01:40):
start with exactly what thisconversation means. And for me,
it's the pinnacle of science andresearch coming together, and
it's informing instruction inreal time. And it's always
interesting to me, because wedon't like to talk about how
messy this can be, but it'spretty messy, and it makes us
uncomfortable, I think, to havethese discussions, even though I
(02:03):
don't know why they do. Theyshouldn't, because this is what
it's all about, right? Islearning and then application.
And we also aren't very good ataccepting that those small
adjustments to instruction canmake a lot of sense. And in
fact, it probably answers a lotof questions, oftentimes that we
ourselves might have in aclassroom going, hmm, I wonder
if and then when it's brought tous, it's brought to us, it's
interesting. Sometimes we cango, ah, what? So it's these
(02:24):
awkward moments that end upimproving instruction. So I was
really pleased to have thisconversation today. So I know
about the great syllable debate,even though I love it because
it's very clicky. You can get onit. It's more of a conversation.
And I think more than anything,it's, it's us kind of getting
comfortable with some, someperhaps new information, or just
information that has morespecificity to it for some so
(02:45):
let's begin and on that. We havea couple of things that we've
we've picked up that we couldread online, but there may be
other pieces that you findonline too when you Google this.
So one of them was actually areprint of a blog post by Tim
Shanahan that he did for ReadingRockets, and it's called on
eating elephants and teachingsyllabication, where he does
talk about the whole article byDevin Kerns. So if you haven't
(03:07):
had a chance to read that one,this is kind of a synopsis by
Shanahan, which is just fine ifyou have the time for it. And
then also he mentions, withinit, this work the thoughts of
Devin Kerns in 2020 and the workon syllable division that came
from something called, doesEnglish have useful syllable
division patterns? So just tofamiliarize you with, oh, that
was Shanahan talking about thispiece within his blog post. And
(03:31):
so that will be the otherarticle that maybe we reference.
But like I say, if you Google,you might find other things,
because I have, I found otherarticles that were kind of
interesting about syllabication.
So let's begin. And Stacy, Imight start with you, because
maybe you're one of the firstpeople I had this conversation
with about this work, and then,because of you talking about it,
I went in and saw Devin Kernspresenting on syllabication.
That was really interesting. Butwhat exactly is syllable
(03:53):
instruction, and why is it socritical to the debate around
teaching reading
Stacy Hurst (04:01):
so words are made
of syllables, right? Like that
is probably the reason that it'sso important. I think a
distinction is important to bemade because we have knowledge
of syllables and speech, whichwe can hear obviously, and you
don't need to know how to read aword to identify syllables in a
(04:21):
word in speech, so if I saidumbrella, we can say umbrella,
right? But in print, sometimesthose syllables operate
differently, and our spellingsystem is complex. So it's
important to note when it iseasier to decode a word based on
(04:42):
syllables, more themes we haveto consider in this
conversation. But either way, Ilike to start with with my own
students, a definition of asyllable, and it is a unit of
speech that's organized aroundone vowel sound. That's when
we're talking about phonologicalawareness, right? Phonemic.
Aware. I mean not phonemicawareness, but in in print. And
(05:04):
Devin Kerns has stated this to asyllable is has at least one
vowel, and in that case, they'retalking about a letter, because
we can have that one vowel soundthat is spelled with two
letters, right? So I don't knowif that answers your question
directly, but very quickly. Youcan see how this can get complex
(05:25):
if we're teaching these things,but I think either way, we start
on the single syllable level,and then we build and
Donell Pons (05:34):
you can already
see, I think you answered both
parts of that question just inthe explanation, how it's
important to reading, as youpointed out. And so why do some
educators believe syllableinstruction should be a central
focus in teaching reading andspelling, while others think it
might not be as crucial as weonce thought. Lindsay, do you
have any thoughts on that?
Lindsay Kemeny (05:54):
Well, I think
maybe what you're getting at
Donnell is the way we teach themto divide syllables, right?
Because, yes, we need to be ableto read the syllables. And there
is kind of this debate. I do seedebates about this, and maybe,
you know, hopefully more justprofessional discussion, because
it's good to kind of get to,like the nitty gritty. But the
(06:17):
question here is, how do youbest teach students to read
these multi syllabic words? Andwhat I fear is, because what we
what we do is we talk about, youknow, which I assume we're going
to get into some nitty grittykind of of, like, how do you
divide the syllables? What's theprocess, and what do you do? And
(06:38):
then you have people pullingback saying, Hey, we don't need
these, like rigid syllabicationrules, right, which we'll talk
about. But I think the key hereis sometimes I worry that when
people are saying that it couldbe interpreted as we don't need
to do anything, and we stillneed to do something, we need to
(07:01):
teach our students how to read aword with 234, syllables.
Certainly, some students figureit out right, and they just do
it. They you could teach them,you know, two syllables, and
then they just apply that toeverything. But a lot more,
definitely need some kind of,you know, instruction in what to
(07:24):
do when you get to this wordthat's a little bit longer. So I
think sometimes I'm worried thatwith the conversation, that's
what will be a takeaway wherenow it's just kind of holistic,
and students will figure it outwhen we still need to instruct
our students and how to readmulti syllabic words. Yeah.
Donell Pons (07:43):
And I'm really glad
Lindsay you pointed that out,
because that is one of theconcerns. Because that's never
been stated, that we don't needany. No one ever stated that.
Shanahan is quick to point thatout, too, in his rehash in the
blog post is, hey, look, henever said, don't it's just what
type and what's most useful incertain settings, right? Yes,
it's kind of a thing. We canhave conversation about that. So
(08:05):
I do appreciate you doing that.
So Devin Kerns his research andStacy, I'm going to have you
address this one, because,again, you're the one who
introduced me to his researchhas been pivotal in sparking
this conversation. We're goingto call it conversation or
discussion. So what are the keytakeaways from Devon's work that
have shaped the currentconversation about syllable
instruction. What were those keytakeaways? I think his
Stacy Hurst (08:26):
main point, I
think, was that we're over
complicating it right? Like sixsyllable types and six ways to
separate a word into syllablesis cognitive overload for a
student. Yeah.
Lindsay Kemeny (08:38):
And his other
thing from his the his article,
how does English have usefulsyllable division patterns? What
he found is a lot of thesesyllable patterns are not very
consistent. So he kind of ispointing out, Hey, why are we
spending all this time teachingthese certain you know, syllable
division rules when it's notconsistent? He found the the
(09:01):
VCC, V pattern, very consistent,where you're dividing between
the two consonants that arebetween the two vowels, right?
But he found the VCV veryunreliable. And so he's, he's
saying, you know, he said, theunreliability of VCV may not
justify the effort required touse the strategy. And what he's
(09:24):
talking about VCV is after. Youknow, if you have two vowels and
you have one consonant betweenthem, then you'll teach, oh,
well, you're going to break itafter the first vowel, and that
vowel is going to be long,because now that's an open
syllable. So you're saying likeTay and then bowl instead of
table or whatever. Actuallybetter example, because that's a
(09:46):
final staple syllable. A bettera better example would be like
dinner versus diner, right? Sodinner, there's two ends. You
split it in between, and thenhe's find that pattern very
regular. So. VCV, like diner,where you split it after the
vowel. Now that there The i isgoing to spell the I sound so
(10:08):
you have die. Nerd, he said thatthat's not not as reliable, but
that was not in two syllablewords, right? He said, in two
syllable words, it was a littlemore, I'm trying to find the
percentages in two syllablewords that was a little more
reliable than in three or moresyllables,
Stacy Hurst (10:28):
but we do still
have words like Robin that won't
follow that exactly.
Lindsay Kemeny (10:32):
Yeah. So he
said, like he said, it was like
30% 30.5% of instances in VCVwords, but that was, you know,
any amount of syllables, and ifit was two syllables by
syllabic, then it was like, Oh,47%
Stacy Hurst (10:51):
Yeah, so a little
higher. And I want to kind of
point out a couple of thingstoo, because I have been,
probably for the past month orso, really going down this
rabbit hole, although I don'tknow if it qualifies as a rabbit
hole, one of the reasons that weneed to focus on the vowel is
because we have a graphotacticlanguage, meaning the letters
(11:12):
around the vowel influence thesound of the vowel. Typically,
it's the letters that follow thevowel, which is exactly what
we're talking about when we'retalking about syllable patterns,
because it helps the studentknow the sound of the vowel
right, whether you're talkingabout single syllable words or
not, and when Dr Kerns is sayingthat when we're splitting a word
between two consonants, and theresearch has shown and by the
(11:35):
way, I learned this years ago inthe book called unlocking
literacy, page 48 I even madenote of it because I used to
train teachers on this. We havealmost 43% of syllables are in
the English language. Almosthalf are closed syllables,
right? So that is one reason.
It's very consistent. And then,to his point, about 32% of
syllable types are those opensyllables. And he even posits
(12:00):
that maybe we don't teach thoseterms to students, that teachers
need to know that those are openand closed. And so combined open
and closed syllables make upabout 75% of any syllable we
encounter, which is significant.
But there are other syllabletypes that need to be addressed
(12:22):
as well, and some of them invery common words.
Lindsay Kemeny (12:25):
And I want to
jump on what you just said,
Stacy, because you just hitsomething that is debated, where
you just said, Hey, do dostudents need to know this
label? So I think that's a bigquestion in this conversation
where you're dividing well, thendo they need to sit there and
label? This is a closedsyllable. This is an open this
is a val team. This is a final,stable syllable. But that's a
(12:49):
lot of words, you know, do theyneed those labels? And do they
need to label? Or, you know,because sometimes some programs
have, you know, these, there alot of steps in breaking the
syllable and then they willlabel them as well?
Stacy Hurst (13:05):
So yeah, he's even
talked about, do we need to
teach the term the terms Macronand Brev and and he says no, and
I kind of agree with that.
Lindsay Kemeny (13:15):
So when you guys
think about the label of the
syllable types, I'm curious forstudents do they need?
Stacy Hurst (13:21):
I actually think
it's whatever it might be
important to use something as ascaffold. Right in the the
program I'm trained in, we dohave a term for determining
whether a vowel sound is long orshort. And there, there are five
skills that we focus on. Sothey're just referred to as
phonetic scale, 12345, but veryquickly, as soon as you get to
(13:44):
multi syllabic words, you'rejust focusing on the pattern. So
I think as long as we don't overrely on whatever term we're
teaching, and we're focusing onwhat's the thing that students
are able to read the wordsautomatically. That's a good
question, though. It's somethingto think about.
Donell Pons (14:04):
That's a really
good question. And you know,
Lindsay, it makes me think aboutthe setting too, because we all
teach in different settings andhave taught in different
settings. And for me, I'mpicking up, typically, students
who have struggled for years,unable to pick up the code, to
be able to master this thing, tobe able to take words apart. And
so for the students that Iteach, typically, having some
(14:27):
foundation or base and somevocabulary to talk about these
things is useful for them. ButI'm thinking of a whole class,
general classroom, and theirfirst graders. How useful is it
for them to be labeling things?
It's a good question.
Lindsay Kemeny (14:41):
Yeah, well, and
it adds to the cognitive load, I
think. So, you know, it's onething to be like, here's two
vowels, okay? We're going tolook for the letters around the
vowels. We're going to chunk itand read each one, okay. And
then it's a whole nother thingto be like, Okay, now, what type
of syllable was that one closed?
What type. Was that one open nowread the word, you know, and I
(15:01):
say that like knowing with myson, you know, I used several, a
few different programs with myson. I worked with him over four
years and and he has severedyslexia. So, you know, I
started out, we did label thosevowel types because the program
I was using at the time, that'swhat they did. But like looking
(15:24):
back, I do kind of wonder, like,gosh, did he really need to know
that was called a vowel teamsyllable, you know? Or, or did
he know that? He need to knowthat? I don't really think so.
He just needed to read the word.
But did did did spending thatextra time for a little bit
(15:44):
labeling those? Did that helpthem really focus more on those
letters and you know, thesyllables? Did that help him
focus and then did that help himlater on as he's reading?
Because, of course, like now, ashe's reading, we don't stop and
divide up a word. He can justread the word. He'll go, I still
(16:06):
remember when he sat there andread unceremoniously,
unceremoniously. I think it wasin Harry Potter we're reading
that we didn't have to stop anddo all these syllable rules and
and break, you know, and labelall the syllables he just did
it. So I guess what I'm curiousis, did that help inform him to
(16:29):
be able to do that or not? And Idon't know if we have a clear
answer on that, because, ofcourse, whatever we're doing to
divide syllables, it slows usdown at first, but we don't do
it forever, because the studentskind of internalize it,
Stacy Hurst (16:41):
right? And anytime
you're analyzing those patterns,
it is useful when you'relearning them right? That's why
we have a lot of research tosupport analytical types of
approaches to phonics.
Lindsay Kemeny (16:54):
But yeah, with
my first graders now, like, No,
we don't label the syllables,but I like what Donnell is
saying, because she's like,Well, her adult students that
she's teaching, she is, and it'snice to have this language to
use to refer to the things andso really, in this conversation,
we really have to think aboutwho we are talking about, right,
(17:14):
the age and who, and if theyhave a disability or not
Stacy Hurst (17:19):
well. And that goes
clear through. Like you
mentioned, Daniel, we're allteaching in different settings
right now, and I think if I wereto put my first grade teacher
hat back on, the critical thingwould be, can they identify the
vowel sound and therefore theword, right? That's the critical
thing with my pre serviceteachers. They need to know that
terminology, and they find evenidentifying them very useful.
(17:42):
But it kind of goes back to yourquestion, Lindsay, how explicit
do I need to be about this isfor you to learn about the
structure of the language. Youdon't need to be using the same
terminology with your students.
Donell Pons (17:56):
And I almost think
of it as I have this base of
knowledge, and it's deep, hasdepth, and I dig into those
parts when I need it. So when Isee a student that and then I go
down, I'll go, we're going to gothree layers deeper. I'm going
to go four. It's almost likethat when you think about it.
It's not a one size fits all.
However, you have to know allsizes. That's that's the thing
about this as the instructor, isI have to be available to
(18:19):
understand and meet the needs ofanyone who comes into that
learning setting, and alsounderstand what's appropriate
for certain learning moments.
And then when I go deeper andpull this out. So this is a
really, I think thisconversation leads us to think
about many things that we dowhen we're teaching, reading,
yeah,
Narrator (18:40):
if you're wondering
where to find proven outcome
focused ways to put the scienceof reading into practice, you're
in the right place. ReadingHorizons, Discovery product
suite is a foundational literacyprogram for grades K through
three that leverages a versatileinstruction method, a
personalized student platform,and accessible learning aids
(19:01):
that include phoneme cards,student transfer books and
decodable books. The programstreamlines literacy instruction
and empowers teachers so alllearners can achieve reading
proficiency. Go to readinghorizons.com/discovery to Learn
more and download the completeprogram details today.
Donell Pons (19:22):
Okay, really good.
This has got me thinking aboutso many things. Okay, so there's
a question that did arise, andit's like, what role does
syllable instruction play inhelping students with dyslexia
or other reading difficulties? Ithink we've touched on it
several times. For me, I've saidfor my older students, it's a
nice way to get language aroundthis thing that has eluded them
for so long, being able to takewords apart and to give them a
(19:44):
base from which to move from. Sothey just need to have a home
base. I consider it home base,in a way, almost. Here's an
instructional piece I'm going togive you about how we're going
to approach saying this wordwhen you see it, because it's
this type of syllable that'sgiving our base. But. Then we
have to have, at some point,flexibility. And I think this is
the other part that Devin Kernsbrings into the conversation, is
because finding out that these,some of these types of
(20:07):
syllables, didn't hold all thatoften when it got into a multi
syllabic situation, and so thethought was, well, then just How
helpful is it? We have a thingcalled flexibility. So does
anybody want to chat a littlebit about, what does that
flexibility mean? Donnell talkedabout a base she's talked about,
okay, it has a usefulness to beable to know what the syllable
type is, to be able to approachit. But then there's a piece
(20:30):
called flexibility. And Lindsay,how about you? What do you
think?
Lindsay Kemeny (20:34):
Yeah, okay, I
love this. And going back to,
you know, talking about studentswith dyslexia, they need, I
think, especially our studentswith dyslexia, really need a set
ordered things to do. And wedon't have to be like Donnell
said, super rigid. But theyneed, like, because we all know
those students, they come to aword that's big and they kind of
(20:56):
freeze, or they just look at thefirst letter and they guess all
the rest of it, right? And theydon't know what to do. And I
think especially our studentswith dyslexia, like we need to
practice a procedure for them,so right away, they know, hey,
look for the vowels, you know,and then whatever you do and
whatever your program does, youknow. I don't know if we know
(21:19):
for sure, like, one specific wayis better than another specific
way. But like, like Donnell issaying you are being flexible.
So I like, and I've used, like,so many different programs. They
all do things a littledifferent. One thing I like,
Reading Horizons uses this,like, you look for the two
vowels, and then you look inbetween them, and if it's, if
(21:41):
there's only one letter orconsonant between them, they use
the phrase, one will run. I hopethat's okay. I can share that.
So you'll go, one will run. Itkind of rhymes, so it helps them
remember. So that means the one,the one consonant in the middle,
will go with the second group,and then the vowel, you know,
then you have just, you split itright there before that. So one
(22:04):
will run with the second group,and you split it right there. So
then you're looking at thatvowel, and if there's nothing
after it, you say the long soundwhen you look at it, all right?
But then Donnell is askingabout, what about flexible?
Well, then if it doesn't work,you just say the other sounds.
So you just flex the vowel. Andsome people will say, like, you
(22:25):
just flex the vowel all thetime. Okay. But students, I
think it's really helpful,especially ones that are
struggling, need this procedure.
So you first say, one will run,and then they, let's say, they
say K bin Cain. Does that soundlike a word you don't know. No,
okay, let's try the other sound.
Ah, cabin. Ah, it works. And sowe were flexible there, but we
(22:48):
did have, like, a littleprocedure that, hey, that
doesn't take long to learn, butit gives them a starting point
for what to do. You know,
Stacy Hurst (22:55):
you're bringing
back so many memories. For me,
when I was teaching first grade,I will say too, the reason a
student can be overwhelmed by along word could be different.
Because there's a certain pointdevelopmentally as a
kindergartner or first grader,you see a long word, it doesn't
matter what your knowledge is.
It might be too muchcognitively, so you don't really
know how to attack it, as wesay. So teaching them those
(23:19):
skills, and I agree, especiallyfor students with dyslexia, and
they need those solidified,those solid like guidelines and
guide posts for that. So I thinkit's beneficial for all students
to teach that way. And one ofthe reasons that Dr Kerns this
conversation is so has been sointriguing to me is because of
(23:40):
the Reading Horizons method. Wethere in that methodology, we
don't teach six ways to break aword into syllables. We teach
two, and then we have a flexibleskill as well. So really it's
but it presupposes, as does anyprogram, it presupposes that
students need to know a certainamount about those vowels and
(24:01):
how they operate in singlesyllable words before you can
move on to that point. And I'vebeen dying to share this
because, as you know, in our BigSky episode, I made reference to
the journal that I've beenkeeping since my first time at
Big Sky, and Dr moats evenbrought this up the first time I
attended Big Sky, wrote downexactly what she said, Because I
(24:24):
think Dr Cain research was kindof newer at that time she wrote
his point is well taken thatsyllable types can be overdone,
especially with Latin based andGreek words. And I think that's
exactly where we need to be moreintentional at that point of
transition before when studentsare mostly learning Anglo Saxon
(24:45):
words, things are prettyconsistent, but then we really
need to lean into morphologywhen we get to those Latin based
and Greek words. And that'swhere the peeling off strategies
come in, or knowing that eventhough a morph. Misspelled the
same it could be pronounceddifferently depending on what
other syllables surround it. Soexcellent point there that there
(25:06):
is even teachers. We need thatset for variability, right? We
need to be flexible in thatspace,
Lindsay Kemeny (25:14):
teaching them to
be flexible, yeah. And then you
just said, we're talking aboutmorphemes. And so that's one
thing, and you'll see that inresearch studies where they talk
about, there's two differentways to divide words. Right? You
could do a syllable approach,where you're dividing by
syllables, and, or you could doa morphological approach, right,
where you're you're dividing themorphemes. And that's, you know,
(25:35):
I use that with my son too. Iused when he was either in fifth
or sixth grade. We use rewardsby Anita Archer and and that is
what she's doing. They'relooking at the the morphemes. So
you circle the the prefix, youcircle the suffix, then you look
at what's left, you read that,and then you add it. And you
know that is great, too. Sothere's so there's different
approaches. You're probably notgoing to do if I'm a first grade
(25:57):
teacher, I'm probably not goingto be looking that much as much
at morphemes. At first, I'mgoing to be looking at
syllables, and then when westart to introduce more words
that have those affixes, thenwe're moving to that, right?
Donell Pons (26:10):
Yeah. You know,
this whole thing has got me
thinking about, sometimesexplaining it to my students.
One of the things that's beenhelpful, like, I say, work with
older students, and so for along time they would see a multi
syllabic word and panic, right?
There's a lot of panic.
Sometimes I might know that wordbecause I've seen it before,
whatever. Everybody knows whatthis feels like. And so one time
I showed a video of someonelearning to run hurdles. And you
(26:34):
don't go out and just startjumping hurdles. You actually
count your steps in between thehurdles. That's what they do.
They actually that's a beginninghurdle is, count, count, count.
On this foot I lift, leg goesover. Count, count, count, leg
goes over. And I likened it tothe beginning. Is going to feel
like that? It's going to feellike we're counting our steps to
get to that hurdle. It's goingto feel like, geez, when can I
just run the hurdle? I saw thatperson just zipping the track.
(26:56):
It looks so cool. And I said,eventually we're not going to be
counting steps. And to me,that's the same as teaching
these, like, I say, a base rule,or some way fundamentally, for a
student to go after a word, buteventually we are looking for
them to be running around thattrack and jump in those hurdles
without thinking about it,right? And so it's oftentimes
nice to give your students anexample of is this may feel like
(27:18):
this, but this is where we'regoing, right? This is where
we're going to start. This iswhere we're going to end up. And
it's a lot like you saying toStacy that developmentally,
that's also important to thinkabout too, because this
conversation we're, if we're farreaching, right? We're going
from younger to older, but weall recognize there's a
developmental trajectory aswell. What's appropriate for a
student. We all know that,
Lindsay Kemeny (27:39):
and perhaps
that's you know, one of the
criticisms is that maybe, ifyou're a general education
teacher, maybe you're taking ittoo long, where you're, I don't
know, where you're spending toomuch time doing these kind of
labored ways of breakingsyllables, where maybe, you
know, I don't think we have ananswer like, how many hours or
how many Minutes, you know,across the year does a student
(28:02):
need? But maybe in the you know,maybe you're doing less for the
whole class, because you canhear that they just start
reading multi syllabic wordswith no problems. But then you
have a small group of studentsthat you still need to break
down and give them more syllabledivision instruction. You know,
I don't know
Stacy Hurst (28:17):
it's and we can't
overlook meaning here, either
because when we switch from aunit of speech, which is what a
syllable is, to a unit ofmeaning which is what a morpheme
is, and in either case, you'regoing to be more likely to
recognize that word in print ifyou know the word, if it's
already in your lexicon, right,if you already are familiar with
(28:39):
it. So not discounting we'regoing to be using larger words
when we're speaking to ourstudents, but then really
preparing them to be able toread them. There's a lot more
that goes into it than justusing those words with them.
Lindsay Kemeny (28:54):
That's one
reason why I've thought about,
you know, our English learners,like I wonder if our English
learners, it's more importantfor them to, you know, to follow
these kind of syllable you know,quote, unquote rules, but as a
beginning, because if they don'thave the word at all in their
(29:14):
lexicon, it's going to be harderto flex the vowels, but at least
if they have, like, a firstPass, and then you can tell
them, oh, you know, let me tellyou what popular means, or
whatever it is, and connect itto the meaning. But it seems
like for them, especially, wecan't just be like, no process.
(29:35):
I feel like having a process isgoing to be really useful for
them
Stacy Hurst (29:39):
well, and even even
in English, if it's that, it's
the student's first language, wehave some little thing called
the schwa, which is the mostcommon vowel sound, yeah, and it
doesn't become a problem untilwe're focusing on the spelling
of words, but they can bepronounced differently. I know I
lived in the South for a while,and I. Where I lived, they
(30:01):
pronounce the word police aspolice, but where I live now, we
say police, I emphasize theschwa, so that sounded weird,
but that is that is true, and Ihave found research that
supports the idea initially,when you're teaching these words
(30:21):
to students, if they haven'tquite developed orthographic
mapping yet, then it isimportant to pronounce it the
way it looks. And then say, howdoes it look like? We should say
it? How do we say it? And thenidentify, where is the schwa,
where is the difference in this?
And I've had great success usingthat with my students as well,
no matter the age, but it isthat as teachers, we need to be
(30:44):
aware. That's why I go back toAries phases, right? We need to
be aware of where they are inorder to know how to support
them over that transition.
There's so much here, right?
Donell Pons (30:59):
Thinking we could
go off into different areas, and
we've already touched on, Imean, my next question was
leading to, is there a danger ofspending too much time on
teaching syllable division? Isthat a problem? And Lindsay, you
did address you touched on thatin talking about, well, if you
are spending a great deal oftime in the general classroom,
and most of the kids know how todo this. But then that ear, and
(31:22):
I thought that was a reallygreat comment that you made too
listen with that ear, and if youcan hear that, your students are
so it's having them do thething, so obviously your
students are spending time doingthe thing. And then I also have
this little thing in the back ofmy mind that I keep thinking of,
and it's that statistic of howlittle time students actually
spend reading in a classroom,and it makes me think how
difficult it might make it forthe students to get to that
(31:45):
point where they are runningaround the track rather than
counting their steps becausethey simply aren't having enough
time. Oh, yeah, right in text,yeah. So that's also
interesting.
Lindsay Kemeny (31:55):
The application
piece is, like, huge, and I'm
always thinking that in myclassroom, how many minutes of
practice are they getting? And Idon't mean how many minutes of
practice doing, like a littleworksheet or something. I mean,
like reading,
Stacy Hurst (32:08):
reading, doing,
writing, yeah, with feedback
too, and some of them need morefeedback than others,
Lindsay Kemeny (32:16):
yeah, yeah. And
yeah, Donnell, that's when
you're listening and you'relike, Hey, listen, they're
getting those multi syllabicwords just fine. Or they are
not. They are, you know, that'swhere they're kind of, you know,
pausing, or kind of, maybegetting little scared, or like a
deer caught in headlights look.
And then you're like, Kate, letme, let me help. We're going to
(32:37):
practice a strategy for dividingthis you know more than you know
you've already done in the
Donell Pons (32:44):
whole class. Yeah,
I also think too. Over the
weekend, I listened to aconversation with the author who
wrote holes, one of my favoritebooks. I love it. My students
love it. Holes is such a greatbook. Lou Louie, and I want to
say it. Louis sax, I hope I'msaying it correctly. Who knows?
But he said something reallyinteresting. And here's a
(33:04):
gentleman who obviously lovesbooks, loves reading. He's
written some tremendous pieces,but he they asked him, what was
his favorite book reading whenhe was younger? What was his
favorite reading experience as achild? Any of that could you
come up with something? And hehesitated and waited and said,
Hmm, you know what it was beingread to that was really
interesting. Okay, so this is apiece I'm going to bring in for
(33:26):
a little bit. I was being readto by my fourth grade teacher.
He says, I don't rememberanything else she did. I
remember nothing else about thatyear. I don't remember her name,
but I remember she readCharlotte's Web. And I was so
into that book. He said I was sointo it that I cried in class
and I got teased. Wow, that wasreally interesting. He said I
(33:47):
was there, I was living it, andI began to cry in front of my
fears and then got teased forit. But what came about
conversation and made me thinkis how important all of those
things are. So we've talkedabout the importance of having
those students read so you canhear them, but also the role of
hearing texts read to them isinteresting. What are your
(34:09):
thoughts there? Because thatjust made me think. It out
Lindsay Kemeny (34:12):
well, it's huge,
because that's how they're being
exposed to a lot of language youknow, which you know, is
important for all students, andespecially important for English
learners, because you want themto have those you know those
words in their lexicon, right?
So they, they, they're familiarfor them, to them. And I like, I
like the Emily Hanford sharesthis example of her son reading
(34:36):
the word epitone, and then whenhe heard Oh, Epitome, he was
like, Oh, that is epitome, youknow, but you need to have that
like word in your vocabulary inorder to recognize it. So by
reading aloud, Donnell, I thinkit's great that you brought that
up by reading aloud and havingthese sophisticated.
(34:59):
Conversations with our studentsthinking about the oral
language, it's going to helpthem as they read, because it's
just going to be easier tofigure out what those words are,
because they'll be familiar tothem, right?
Stacy Hurst (35:09):
Yeah, especially if
you're talking about the
meaning. Also, one thing I lovethat Devin Kerns always points
out, even when we're talkingabout decodable text, which he
says is important. We shouldn'tbe using such obscure word,
words with such obscuremeanings, even if they match the
pattern of the spelling patternthat you're teaching, just so
(35:34):
we're always making thoseconnections. And I don't know if
I should be admitting this rightnow, but literally, maybe two
years ago, it was in Devonsession. I say it like We're
BFFs, Dr Kern session, that Irealized, like hearkening back
to second grade, my teacher readus Where the Red Fern Grows. And
I remember learning the wordvittles for the first time then,
(35:56):
and I learned what it was, andit was Dr Kearns was using this
as an example. Guess what? Ilearned it's spelled V i c t u,
a l s. I didn't know that. Ithought it was v i t, t, L, E,
S, and so all these years, whenI've been seeing the word
spelled V i c t u, a l s, I havebeen saying victuals like and I
(36:19):
thought there were somethingdifferent. Vittles and victuals
are different. They're not sameword. So unless we were focusing
on and we go into that, we talkabout lexical quality, which
includes all of the ways to lookat a word, right? So maybe if my
second grade teacher had saidthis word, vittles, it might be
new to you. It means food, andthis is how it's spelled. I
(36:42):
wouldn't have had to waitdecades later to realize they
were the same word, but my mindwas blown. I love learning
things like that.
Donell Pons (36:55):
You know, this is
all. This has been all a really
good conversation, and I'm gladthat we've gone these different
places to bring things together,because we are having more
conversation around orallanguage too, and we're also
having more conversation aroundtext quality and being able to
read a variety of texts, and notjust the text that a student
might be able to read on theirown, but also hearing other
(37:17):
texts. So I think this is allvery it's a timely conversation
to bring this all together. AndI wanted to ask, how would you
like to see the debate orconversation evolving over the
next few years about syllabledivision or any of the other
aspects we've talked about? Howwould you like to see it
Lindsay Kemeny (37:35):
Well, for one
thing is, I don't want people to
get too married to a certainway, you know. Like, I don't
know, people get so passionatebecause they've seen it work,
but I think we always need to bea little open to maybe there's a
more efficient way, or a betterway, to sustain open to that,
but also be, like, open tocriticism a little bit of the
(37:57):
way you're doing it. Like, don'ttake it personally. It's just
like, maybe there's another way,maybe understanding there are
multiple ways to do this. So Idon't know, sometimes I see
people get just so passionateabout, like, one program's
approach than another, but Iwill, I would love, it'd be
great to get more research,because, you know, on some of
(38:18):
these specifics, like a specificmethod we do have some research
about I just want to share acouple things where I'm reading
this article called syllabicversus morphemic analysis,
teaching multi syllabic wordreading to older, struggling
readers. So I need to keep inmind that this is for older
readers, even though I teachyounger, but they do share
(38:42):
explicit instruction in syllablebased analyzes is has resulted
in fluent and accurate reading.
So you're like, Okay, so there'ssupport, but then it says that
it's more effective when basedon flexible segmenting of multi
syllabic words. So that's like,what Dr Kerns is saying, like,
we need to be flexible. Andteach him to be flexible. We
(39:02):
don't want these rigid rules.
And it said it's more effectivebased on flexible segmenting,
rather than syllabication rules,which have been reported to have
no positive benefits on readers,multi syllabic word reading,
which is, like, reallyinteresting, but it probably
goes back to to theunreliability of those in not
(39:29):
two syllable words, but three ormore, right? And so, not saying
we can never teach any rules,but you're teaching them to be
flexible within those I don'tknow. So I'm just saying there's
more. It's not so black andwhite. There's like areas of
gray here that I think we'restill figuring it out. And so I
think is the key is to stay openand to be flexible. But give
(39:52):
your students a procedure thatthey can follow and teach them
to be flexible with thatprocedure,
Stacy Hurst (39:57):
and keep the thing
the thing like, look. For
because another point is, if weover rely on rules, like I've
seen programs that have studentsrepeat rules constantly, but
just repeating the rule will notensure that they can spell that
word. So going back to thatapplication, and what I would
like to see too, is more of afocus, because I think this
(40:20):
could upend some apple carts ifwe're not careful, right? But I
want to see more of a focus ofbeing responsible about the
research and how it is going tobe translated to practice.
Because some teachers might hearthis and think, then, you know
what, I'm not going to teach anyof these patterns and just focus
on peeling off, but they stillhave to know what to peel off,
right? Or they have to know thatbase or root as well. So they
(40:44):
definitely need instruction inthe sound spelling system,
including syllable types, how tomake sense of that vowel sound.
But yeah, I agree. Like beingflexible, and I'd like to see
more conversations. In fact, Ihave only talked to Dr Kerns
about this, maybe a fewsentences worth, because we were
focusing on something else. ButI have often just, I don't have
(41:07):
his phone number, but to beclear, if I did, I want to call
him up and say, can we just talkabout this? Can we talk through
this? Because there's so much ofwhat he's saying that resonates
with me. And I mentioned that Drmoats mentioned that too, but
then later I have heard her say,but I think he goes a bridge too
far, right? And I don't rememberthe context for that, so maybe I
shouldn't have even mentionedit, but I think there's so much
(41:30):
to still talk about, and what isthe research saying. Initially,
his research focused on patternsin print, not necessarily how
students manage them, right? Soresearch focused on, like you
were saying Lindsay, on theprograms with actual students in
real classrooms to see whatwould work best for them, too,
(41:50):
lots more conversations andresearch and not getting carts
ahead of the horse. I thinkbecause, like you're saying
Lindsay, like, use something andthen adjust and be flexible.
Donell Pons (42:03):
It'd be nice to
also offer teachers some
guidance around how much time,yeah, and I realize that's going
to vary, right? I totally, Itotally get that, but I do think
that, and again, I understandwhat I'm asking, too. That's not
an easy thing. Lest it soundreally simple, it's not to be
able to come up with somethinglike that to provide guidance,
but it would be nice to be ableto offer up something like that
(42:26):
along those lines, and thenalso, I think, to be really
clear about the benefits thatstudents might be getting from
being able to recognizepatterns, and how that might
also be improving their spellingas well. I think we've done some
things, I've heard some things,I've read some things that sound
really interesting andintriguing, but that would be
interesting as well, because allthat to say, we want our
students to be able to go fromcounting the steps between those
(42:49):
hurdles to being able to justrun those without having to
think about them. And that'sreally what we're all after in
the end, right? Absolutely.
Lindsay Kemeny (42:57):
Yeah, there's a
research article I really like.
It's by Devin Kerns and VictoriaWhaley. It's from 2019 and so he
they share, you know, somestrategies at the syllable level
and at the morpheme level. Andso, just to close, because we're
talking about syllables at thesyllable level, there's four
(43:20):
strategies. One, identifying thesyllables and words using simple
principles. So I don't thinkhe's necessarily saying to label
them, but right, you're able toto to recognize you're
recognizing those patterns. Andthen two, knowing different
pronunciations of single lettervowel sounds. That's being able
to you know at or a E or areading the he uses the term
(43:45):
polysyllabic. It's just the sameas multi syllabic reading, multi
syllabic words using a flexiblestrategy. You've heard us talk
about that and then practicingcorrecting mispronunciations,
and so that reminds me of DrArcher's rewards program,
because she will do that whereshe'll say, like, you know,
she'll have the teacher go like,Cain, and they're like, oh,
(44:08):
cabin. And you're like,correcting it to a word you
recognize. So anyway, I likedthat article and how it kind of
gave those succinct strategies,
Stacy Hurst (44:17):
yeah, and that's
the every syllable has a vowel
strategy as well identifyingthem. And he he has come out and
said marking systems can be toocomplex. I agree that they can
be, but they're also reallygreat scaffold in the meantime.
And even something as simple asunderlining a morpheme right,
(44:39):
which he has said that he doesas well. So and then the peeling
off strategy is when you're onthe more philological level,
yeah, the
Lindsay Kemeny (44:46):
more Yeah. And
she he did share that too.
Sorry, I didn't get, I didn'tshare that one, but he did have
strategies for, he said,pronouncing a fixes in words, to
mastery, then to read. Words byidentifying the affixes and the
base words and then readingwords in morphological word
families. So, you know, you'regoing to read a lot of words
(45:07):
that all have the RE stuff, youknow, prefix or whatever. So
yeah,
Stacy Hurst (45:12):
interesting though,
when we're talking about the
syllable level, he gave fourdifferent things to do. Again,
that would mean we need to beflexible, but it all of this
conversation has brought me backto the need to teach
systematically, because whenyou're working within a system,
you don't need four differentthings you know what to rely on
(45:33):
when you've built knowledge in away that you know they're using
their long term memory for, andthen also explicitly and
sequentially. The sequencematters. That really matters
too. And maybe at the point wehaven't taught something, you
can use a strategy that's alittle more flexible for a
student, but yeah, lots to thisconversation, right?
Donell Pons (45:56):
Oh yes, lots to
this conversation. But this has
been great. Thank you so much. Iwe went many places, and they
were all wonderful. I appreciatethe conversation.
Stacy Hurst (46:04):
Yeah. Thank you for
the topic, even the click bait
of it, because it can become adebate, I think. But I like what
Lindsay said. Let's just stayopen and consider possibilities
and and refine what we knowworks right to a point that
aligns with this research andupcoming research, and as
always, I can't help but thinkof because I work with pre
(46:27):
service teachers, teacherknowledge, and my first year of
teaching, there is no way I knewany of this right, but I did
know enough to flip the vowel,but I think that was a balanced
literacy trick anyway, flippythe whatever it
Lindsay Kemeny (46:44):
was, but it's
good. It's good to flex the
vowel, right?
Stacy Hurst (46:47):
Yeah, yeah. But
it's so much better when you
teach all the things that go upto that in the first place,
right, only to confirm what theword is. And then I also
hearkened back to the fact thatI did use a scripted program
before as my knowledge wasgrowing, and that could help
compensate for what I didn'tknow. And I think publishers
(47:07):
have that responsibility to helpmake sure that that that their
materials can support teacherswhile they're still learning,
which we all will always learn.
I always say a script is useful,but it's a scaffold for
teachers. It's not the dirtyword that some people think it
is, anyway. So I think I justcontinued the conversation. I
(47:28):
feel like we're supposed to bewrapping up, right? I got
carried away. Great topic.
Donell, thank you so much forchoosing it, and I'm sure we'll
be addressing it Sarah and weshould probably reach out to Dr
Kerns and see if you can chatwith us too. Be great, yeah,
okay, and thank you all forbeing part of this conversation.
We'd love to hear your thoughtson this as ever, feel free to
(47:50):
reach out and please join us forthe next episode of literacy
talks.
Narrator (47:57):
Thanks for joining us
today. Literacy talks comes to
you from Reading Horizons, whereliteracy momentum begins. Visit
reading horizons.com/literacy,talks to access episodes and
resources to support yourjourney in the science of
reading. You.