October 29, 2025 • 50 mins
In this deeply personal episode of Literacy Talks, host Donell Pons sits down with her son Bridger for a heartfelt conversation about growing up—and parenting—through the lens of dyslexia. From early signs and school struggles to moments of breakthrough and discovery, their dialogue offers a rare, honest look at how learning differences affect families, relationships, and self-perception.
Bridger shares what it was like to navigate a world that didn’t seem built for how his brain works, how storytelling became both a refuge and a strength, and why the right kind of support can make all the difference. Together, they explore the emotional complexity of being misunderstood, the power of resilience, and what it truly means to be seen.
This episode invites listeners to look beyond labels—and to listen more closely to stories that often go unheard.
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Episode Transcript
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Narrator (00:03):
Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy
leaders and championseverywhere, brought to you by
Reading Horizons. Literacy Talksis the place to discover new
ideas, trends, insights andpractical strategies for helping
all learners reach readingproficiency. Our hosts are Stacy
Hurst, a professor at SouthernUtah University and Chief
(00:27):
Academic Advisor for ReadingHorizons. Donell Pons, a
recognized expert and advocatein literacy, dyslexia and
special education, and LindsayKemeny, an elementary classroom
teacher, author and speaker. Nowlet's talk literacy.
Donell Pons (00:46):
You're listening to literacy talks, and today is an
episode that's going to be alittle different. It's personal,
it's important, and it's a storythat's been a long time in the
making. The heart of another isa dark forest always, no matter
how close it has been to one'sown. Willa Cather, it's an
author that I really love. I'vealways loved that quote. It
(01:09):
reminds me that understandinganother person, even your own
child, is never simple. Andtoday's episode is deeply
personal. It's about my youngestson, Bridger, and you've
probably heard me talk about himbefore on the podcast, and I
never thought I'd get to talk toI'm just going to say that
again, he's 23 now. He's awriter, a storyteller, and one
(01:29):
of the most creative, thoughtfulpeople I know. But his path
hasn't been easy from a veryyoung age. Bridger struggled to
read and write, eventuallydiagnosed with dyslexia,
dysgraphia and dyscalculia.
School was often a painfulmismatch for how his brain
worked, and yet, from the momenthe could speak, he was telling
(01:50):
stories. And in fact, whenBridger was two, he would begin
almost every conversation withthis race. I'm going to tell you
something that you don't knowthat is mostly true. I kid you
not. That was the phrase. And nomatter what followed, people
listened. He had that kind ofpresence, big brown eyes, a
(02:13):
contagious smile and an abilityto spin a story so detailed and
alive it could go on for anhour. I guess I'm hoping for the
same kind of magic here today,even though I'm not too and I
don't have the eyes or thecharm, but I do have something
to say, and more importantly,today, you'll hear him say it.
This episode is a conversation.
(02:39):
It's a mother and a son talkingabout what it was like to grow
up in a system that didn'talways understand how he learned
and how he learned to understandhimself anyway along the way,
we'll talk about the teachers hemissed it, the stories that
saved him, and an author whobecomes a mentor through The
(02:59):
pages, Brian MacDonald, whohelped him see his difference as
a gift, not a flaw. Before webegin, I want to read a short
passage from something I wroteyears ago in the preface to a
book I never quite finished. Sothat might be a topic of
conversation for Bridger myselftoday, is why I didn't finish
that, a book that started as away to make sense of this really
(03:20):
challenging journey. Here goesfirst. Why? Actually, I think
being the mother of a child withdyslexia makes you think about a
lot of things like why learningto read is so critical to
academic success, and why notlearning to read is so
prevalent, yet still shrouded insecrecy and a certain sense of
personal failure, and still,after all these years of
(03:44):
talking, reading, studying andlearning about dyslexia, I'm not
convinced I'm any closer totruly understanding the
beautiful complexity of how myson learns, or the many ways in
which his difference can enrichmy life and the lives of those
around him. So today, I hopeyou'll listen not just with your
(04:06):
ears, but with your heart,because Bridgers story isn't
just his, it belongs to everychild who thinks in ways who
don't yet know, or we don't yetknow how to teach, and to every
parent or teacher trying to walkthrough that dark forest
together. This is something youdon't know that is mostly true.
(04:30):
So let's begin with thatintroduction. Bridger, my
special guest, right? SoBridger, do you remember the
kinds of stories you used totell when you were little,
before you could write themdown, before reading was even on
your radar. You had this abilityto hold a room with your
(04:52):
imagination. Where did that comefrom? And do you remember it?
What do you remember that? Um.
Unknown (05:00):
My memory of my earlier years are a bit spotty, but I
remember being read to a lot,and the feeling, the feelings
that I would have as when I wasbeing read to, were very potent.
It almost felt compelled tochase those same feelings
(05:22):
outside of a book. And becausereading was a fairly, you know,
inaccessible thing for me,telling those stories was a way
to get it to achieve that samefeeling
Donell Pons (05:34):
that's so interesting you talking about,
because you really lived it,right? You lived those stories.
You were there, yeah, yeah,yeah. So Bridger, for me,
sometimes I wondered if the factthat you weren't, you weren't
you didn't have the page. Youweren't reading the words on the
page, but you were listening andhearing it, almost removed a
barrier in a way, to where youwere. You could access a story
(05:56):
in a way that somebody elsewho's maybe looking at the page
and going over the words,there's a distance between them
and the story. What do youthink?
Unknown (06:04):
Yeah, it for sure. You know, telling a story is a lot
different than hearing it, theexperience of it. And so, you
know, putting myself in thatseat of now telling the story,
having listened to a ton of thembefore it was it was very
different, and it came with adifferent kind of reward. You
know, it's rewarding to hear astory. It's rewarding in a
(06:25):
completely different way to havean audience respond to what
you're telling them, and that,in a lot of ways, is more
rewarding, at least at a veryyoung age. I found that far more
interesting. I still enjoyedlistening to stories, but, you
know, telling them was was moreenriching in a lot of other
ways.
Donell Pons (06:45):
That's so interesting, because you would
take people on a journey. Wasthat the rewarding part because
you really did it was
Unknown (06:51):
in the reaction. It was the shock and awe, you know. And
I think you you saw that in, youknow, other aspects of my
behavior, where I would saythings just to get a rise out of
people. And you know, that wouldweave into the story as well.
You know, what is the mostshocking, unbelievable, mostly
true thing I could tell youwithout losing you along the
(07:13):
way, but also shock you andsurprise you. And again, as I
said, listening to thosestories, you know that gives
you. It gave me a lot. It was,it was an incredible experience,
and I wanted to give that toothers as well. And so it was
like a give and take. I feltlike it was going both ways.
When I tried to tell a storythat audience was always a super
(07:34):
important piece, so
Donell Pons (07:37):
interesting, because now when I think back on
it, that is so true, howengaging the whole thing was,
and so young, at a very youngage, to be able to do that. What
were your favorite kinds ofstories to tell? Did you have a
favorite kind of story, or didyour mind just go wherever
Unknown (07:54):
it went? I told a wide variety of stories, but what I
was always drawn to was and Iwas never very good at telling
them, but stories about thesupernatural, I really, really
like, I really loved, but I justcouldn't find a way to tell them
very well. So instead of havingsome supernatural element, it
(08:16):
would be real life things thatwere pushed to an extreme that
you almost couldn't believe themwithout tipping fully into the
supernatural. Yeah, that wasjust kind of my way of trying to
tell those stories, but justsimply not knowing how to pull
them. Was
Donell Pons (08:31):
it vocabulary that you lacked at the time? Or
Unknown (08:35):
I feel like it was for lack of a term for lack of a
better term respect, because noone's going to respect this
story, you know, a two year oldtelling you a story like, how
many people are going to look atthat and say, Oh, this is a
folklore. You know, this is notsupposed to be taken literally.
(08:56):
People are just going to sayit's a two year old and he's
lying, you know. So it wouldhave to be rooted in reality for
people to take me seriously.
Because when you take a storyseriously, that's when those
emotions happen. That's whenyou're the most invested. You
know, regardless if it isfantasy or, you know, it has
supernatural elements, you haveto take it seriously. But coming
(09:16):
from a two year old, peopledon't take it seriously. So it
had to be rooted in reality. Ithad to be just believable
enough.
Donell Pons (09:25):
That's so interesting, because I was going
to ask you if it felt like playor something more serious, but
there was a lot of thought here.
Unknown (09:32):
Yeah, it wasn't necessarily those words didn't
form in my head. You know, thesewhole conversations about
really, what was I doing?
Really, what was I trying tosay? This was all passively
understood that I'm not going tobe taken seriously. So I have
to, you know, there's a rulesthat I have to play by because
of, you know, who I am and howpeople will perceive me.
Donell Pons (09:54):
Okay, that's so interesting to me. So let's move
into the school years, becausethis was all preschool and so.
Course, I'm thinking, thislittle guy love story tells a
great story. You know, maybewe've dodged the dyslexia bullet
because we knew it was withinthe family history. Your dad had
it, right? So we're thinking,Oh, geez. Well, maybe we got
lucky and then we hit theschool. And so let's talk about
(10:14):
that. When did you first noticethat learning, especially
reading and writing, felt harderthan it did for other kids? When
did you realize that
Unknown (10:24):
the alphabet, I think, was the first when we started
learning the alphabet, and Irealized that other kids could
listen, they could hear thewords A, B, C, and then they'd
be able to say the words A, B,C, and for some reason, I'd get
stuck on B, or I get stuck on C,and it took, I mean, in talking
(10:44):
to, you know, Dad just and whatit was like doing the alphabet,
you know, he told me. He said ittook about like six months for
me to learn. It like six monthsto learn A to Z, to be able to
do that on my own, and thatwasn't normal. I saw those
(11:07):
students in class. I saw whatthey could do, and I couldn't do
that. So it became very, veryclear very, very early on that I
wasn't there was somethingwrong. I'm not like the other
students.
Donell Pons (11:21):
Yeah, we're talking really young. We're talking so
that's Kinder first Yeah, yeah,kinder first grade. Were there
moments that really stuck withyou, times that stood out, where
you felt really misunderstood,labeled, even
Unknown (11:40):
I remember you one time. This would have been about
fourth grade, and I said, I haddyslexia, you know, that's when
we knew what it was, and I hadreceived remediation for it. And
one of the other students said,Oh, really read this passage.
And she pointed to, you know,the sheet in front of us,
(12:02):
whatever we were working on atthe time, and I was able to read
through it, and other kids werelike, you don't have dyslexia.
No, you wouldn't be able to readit. And I felt like they just
didn't get it. And dyslexia wasalways clear to me. That was
never something I brought upwith other people, but when I
(12:23):
heard that, I was like, peoplereally don't know what it is.
People have no idea what I'vegone through. And to even to try
and explain that that to them,when they just saw me read a
passage completely undoesanything I could do, anything I
could say to them to give theman accurate picture of what
dyslexia is. That was a veryearly experience, very eye
(12:45):
opening to how people reallyview it, and how little they
understand about dyslexia, justthe average person. That was
one. And there are, you know,more than a handful of
experiences in a classroom whereI was asked to read something by
the teacher, and I frankly,couldn't, and sorry, this might
(13:07):
continue on longer than Iplanned, but there was a program
we had in elementary schoolwhere we would read to the
younger grades. And so Iremember going into the
classroom like this would havebeen about third grade and
reading to the real youngstudents. And, you know, we'd
all get into a room, and we'dall, you know, pick up a book,
Find a buddy, and read to them,and I would mumble through the
(13:31):
noise of this room. We were allreading in the same room, and it
was just a, you know, a droninghum of other kids reading. And I
would just mumble along and getlost in it. And eventually my
partner would stop payingattention because I couldn't
read to them. That feels reallyterrible when you're expected to
do something for someone else,you're expected to help, you're
expected to teach, and I can'tdo that. I can't offer what I'm
(13:54):
supposed to do, and that'sreally defeating. That one stuck
with me for a long time. Yeah.
Donell Pons (14:01):
So at this point, your teachers know you have
dyslexia. At this point, you'vegot an IEP, it stated, but
clearly they didn't know. Wasthere ever a teacher that knew?
What was that like withteachers? What was that
experience like? Did a lot ofthem not know?
Unknown (14:18):
A lot of them didn't, yeah, unless I said dyslexia,
they wouldn't, you know, they'dnever say it. And even after I
would say dyslexia, or dyslexiawas brought up, or they looked
at my 504 later on, it wasalways a battle to get
accommodations. That was never,I think maybe one time, one
(14:41):
time, and all throughout highschool or middle school and
elementary school one time, andall that span, did one teacher
actually take me aside foraccommodations on a test for
extra time, only one time wherethey took the enact the
initiative to actually do it?
Do. Yeah. So no, teachers didnot know or care or knew what
(15:02):
they were looking at. Yeah.
Donell Pons (15:07):
Did you have one, even one, just the one that took
you aside for theaccommodations? Did you have
anyone that really understood ormade it plain that they
understood?
Unknown (15:18):
I don't remember what it was like in second grade, but
I hear you. I heard you talkabout my second grade teacher as
someone who the one who caughtit, but I don't remember what it
was like with her. You know,that's a little bit too far
back. But beyond that, I reallycan't tell you, it's really felt
like no one really understoodpast that point.
Donell Pons (15:40):
That's so interesting when we think about
the school experience withdyslexia. So something I wrote
years ago Bridger, was about, asyour mom, how I felt
misunderstood. So I'm going toread that little bit here, and
then I won't read anymore, Ipromise, but it's just this
little section. I'm tired ofbeing misunderstood as the
mother of a child with dyslexiaor a learning disability or slow
(16:03):
processing, because apparently,it's all the same thing, and
it's used simultaneously toexplain why my boy struggles to
read. Do you think parents andkids both feel that sense of
being misread? I think we bothdo. We're listening to you talk.
What do you think
Unknown (16:18):
it's hard to approach it, because, again, I'm not, you
know, a parent, and I don't havea child with dyslexia, but you
know, if your child's gettingthis misunderstood when they're
the one who has it, you can'timagine what that's like from a
parent's perspective, and howthat relationship must be like,
you know, because it's shared,that misunderstanding is shared.
(16:41):
You know, when your childsuffers, you suffer, right? And
if that suffering is beingmisunderstood, you as a parent
are being misunderstood. It goesboth ways.
Donell Pons (16:52):
That's so interesting. It's got me
thinking about our experiencesand how we kind of both were
having as a parent, I, on my endam trying to work with an
educator that doesn'tunderstand, and you, on your end
are the student in the classroomwhere the educator doesn't
understand, and in differentways, we're both engaging with a
(17:16):
system that doesn't get how towork with us. Right on your end
and on my end, that's sointeresting to think about, and
how much of that impacts andstays with people in families,
right? That might have more thanone child with dyslexia. Your
Dad's experience with schoolcertainly impacted the way he
felt about coming to yourschool, didn't it? Yeah, how
(17:37):
comfortable, uncomfortable hewas to be in the school that's
really interesting. Okay, I'mgoing to jump into something
that, for me, is a reallypositive subject, and it's a fun
one for me, it's how you so wetalked about the fact that when
you were young story, you werevery into story, and it was oral
storytelling. And then as yougot older, it was interesting,
because you found ways to engagewith story. You would put
(18:01):
together these books that Idon't know if you remember this
bridge, you're pretty young, butyou would staple together large
reams of paper, like stacks.
That's all you wanted. Was a bigold stack of paper for a
printer. And then you would messaround with paper and make these
books of your own. And you wouldwrite story, but you would be
writing phonetically. Obviouslybest to your account to write so
that I would then have to try toread it back to you. Do you
(18:23):
remember any of those?
Unknown (18:26):
Yeah, I remember a few times. Yeah. Okay. What
Donell Pons (18:29):
was my favorite?
Was that what I was reading it,because the obviously, some of
it was phonetic spelling, so Iwas trying to guess at the read.
And you would go, nope, that'snot it, because I would read it
incorrectly. I was the best. Soyou engage with story all
through the way. And thenthankfully, we didn't kill story
in you, because I worried aboutthat bridge with all those
experiences in school that wouldkill the story right out of you,
(18:50):
right your desire to even tellor be around a story. And
thankfully, you held on to that,which I am so grateful for. And
a few years ago, you found amentor in the work of someone
named Brian McDonald. He's ascreenwriter and a story expert,
really, who's also dyslexic, andI don't know that you told me
that when you first startedreading him, and then maybe you
(19:10):
told me later, but tell us howyou discovered his work.
Unknown (19:17):
I wanted to improve in writing, and I started a little
writing club with being a buddy.
And this is in high school, so afew years ago, and he had
mentioned on the offhand thispodcast that you are a
storyteller podcast, I thought,you know Cheryl, I'll check it
(19:38):
out. And you know, he wassinging high praises for it. So
it was like, okay, sure, I'llcheck it out. And, you know, the
first episode I clicked on, Iwas like, this, he's making a
lot of sense. You know, it wasBrian talking to his co host,
and I'm like, everything he'ssaying is making a lot of sense,
and it's speaking to. Ideas thatI already felt were true. I just
(20:00):
couldn't give voice to them. Ididn't know what it was called.
And then suddenly this personshows up and is is saying
exactly what I've been feelingthis entire time with the things
that I've already felt aboutstory, and he's able to say it
way better than I could ever ina clarity that I could never and
Yeah. From then it was justYeah. Everything just kind of
(20:24):
clicked. After that. For story,a lot fell into place. I was
really thankful to have it. Andso for that podcast, you know,
they've had tons of episodes,and I've, I've gone through, you
know, each of those episodes. Iwatched, you know, them at least
five times each. So I love it. Igo back to it. I reference it
all the time. So it was a reallygreat resource.
Donell Pons (20:47):
Okay, so tell me this, because you are right. It
really spoke to you. What was itabout the way he described story
that resonated, that made sense,
Unknown (20:57):
that it wasn't random.
You know, it's not just aboutmaking people feel something.
It's about why you're makingsomeone feel something. That's
what story is for, and story asa teaching tool. We're not just
making people feel things forentertainment. People find a lot
of things entertaining. I wishthat was one of the things I
learned earlier on. Youmentioned at the beginning of
(21:17):
this show that I would tellstories, and it was about the
shock and awe, and it was aboutentertaining, and it was about
making people feel something.
But it wasn't just forentertainment. I was making
people feel something because Iwanted to feel something as
well. I was trying to sharesomething that I felt was super
important, the things that Ifelt when listening to story
(21:39):
that was really important to me,because I didn't get that
anywhere else, and so to givethat to someone else was It was
super important. It was superpowerful. And so I was doing
something important, and I knewstory was important. And when I
heard Brian talk about storiesand that it's not just for
entertainment, it serves agreater purpose. It helps people
(22:00):
solve problems in their life.
It's about survival. And overallsurvival is about life and
death. You know, there'semotions that have to be played,
that have to be factored in. Sowhen Brian's talking about that,
when I first heard him, youknow, the understanding the
importance of story and whatit's truly for that resonated
with me, you know, tenfold so
Donell Pons (22:25):
beyond him being able to explain things in a way
that really made sense, maybefor the first time, just the way
that he approached talking aboutstory. What did it mean for you
to find out he had dyslexia?
That he was dyslexic.
Unknown (22:40):
When I first heard it, I was a little surprised. And
then looking back on it, waslike, Well, of course, the
approach that, you know, itcan't all just be random.
There's a lot of like, discretefacts that you I usually try and
avoid. This approach ofmemorizing a bunch of discrete
facts. Story is this? Story isthat, and these things don't
(23:02):
tend to comport with each other.
That really doesn't make sense,and this may just be a dyslexic
way of thinking, but everythingkind of has to have a reason,
and everything has to branch offof that reason, like for
learning grammar rules. If Ican't, if I don't really know
why a grammar rule is in aspecific way, I'm going to have
a really hard time understandingthat rule if I don't, if there's
not something to compare it to,if it doesn't follow some kind
(23:25):
of rule set that makes sense tome. So having story follow a
very specific rule set, thereare three acts, and each of
these acts do does a veryspecific thing for a very
specific purpose, and thatthere's an underlying structure
that permeates all effectivestory. You know, having that
this thing that answers all ofyour questions made a lot of
(23:48):
sense to me. Instead of justdisjointed parts, one connects
here and there and yeah, I wasnever going to hold on to that.
Yeah, that's just the way Ithink. And I think that's a
fairly common approach withdyslexia, having this, you know,
ultimate rule that everythingbranches off from
Donell Pons (24:10):
that's interesting.
Okay, so you've got me thinkingabout a couple of things here
that I kind of want to explore alittle bit. That person who said
to you when you were able toread the passage, and they said,
Oh, you don't have dyslexia.
Does your mind ever go to boy?
If they could see me now, theynever would believe I have
dyslexia. Does that ever do you?
Unknown (24:29):
Yeah, it's a blessing to have remediation, but it to
be, you know, as well off as Iam now, and that's a great
thing. I'd never trade it foranything. You know, it's great
my abilities now, but they comewith a cost, and that cost is
you lose, you lose part of beingthat community now, because when
(24:53):
I'm talking with my friends andthey have dyslexia, it's like,
Well, geez, I'm relying on, youknow, 10. Year old memories in
order to try and relate to youabout this thing that I
experienced, you know, back inelementary school. That's really
hard. I don't have a lot ofcurrent, present experiences
(25:13):
that I can help resonate youwith. So I'm having to rely on,
you know, memories in order to,you know, share some common
understanding with people withother Dyslexics, and so a lot of
times it feels like stolendollar. You know, when people
say, Oh, but you're dyslexic, ohyeah. And it's like, well, yeah,
but not really, yeah. It's hard,you know, you you get to be your
(25:40):
own person, but you don't reallyfit in both worlds. You don't
fit in the Dyslexic world andyou don't really belong in the
non dyslexic world. You don'treally have a place. I guess I
don't get me wrong. It's greatbeing able to read as well as I
do. It's a wonderful thing. Andagain, I wouldn't trade it for
anything, but it's not allsunshine and roses. You know,
(26:02):
you don't get to feel part ofsomething anymore, even if that
thing that you were a part ofwas a struggle. That's
something,
Donell Pons (26:08):
yeah, that's so interesting, because I hadn't
really thought about that,because your your dad, is so
proud, obviously, of all thatyou've been able to achieve.
And, you know, he has said manytimes, I never thought that I
would have a son with dyslexiawho reads like this, who writes
like this, who wants to write,he finds it incredible, but he
also doesn't understand it. Andthere's a distance between the
(26:29):
two of you, isn't there? It'salmost like two different
dyslexias,
Unknown (26:32):
isn't it? Yeah, it doesn't feel like we're having
the same experience, and we'renot. So it's very hard to have
that. Again, commonunderstanding, the shared
empathy for each other, becausehe can't empathize what it's
like to read at my level, andit's very hard for me to rely on
such old memories to empathizewith his experience.
Donell Pons (26:52):
Yeah, that's so interesting. I hadn't heard you
articulate it quite like thatbefore, huh? That's it. You're
straddling two worlds, aren'tyou, in many ways. So obviously,
your relationship with writingis unique. You love a story. You
actually live in story. But theact of writing itself hasn't
(27:16):
always been easy, and I'm noteven implying that it's easy
today.
Unknown (27:19):
Yeah, when has it been easy, right?
Donell Pons (27:23):
And as any writer knows, it's never easy, Yeah,
but how do you write now? What'syour process like, and is it
evolving?
Unknown (27:33):
It is evolving, yeah, earlier, like in my early years,
it would be writing downeverything phonetically, you
know, and kind of brute forcingit really. And so I had to take
a lot of there were a lot ofcreative liberties that I
otherwise would have taken at ayoung age that I didn't because
(27:54):
I didn't know how to spell thatword, I didn't know how to begin
to spell that word, or toformulate that on a page. So I
would just reject it, you know,choose something else that I
could find, that I could kind ofmaybe spell, that someone could
maybe guess at. But now I don'thave those same restrictions,
(28:15):
and, well, it opened up a lot ofopportunities for me. I still
find myself trying to perfectit. So I feel like the writing
phase for me, most of thewriting I do is just notes and
refining those notes. It'susually just asking questions.
I'll just write down aconversation that I'm having
(28:36):
with myself. It's like, Why doeshe do this? Well, because of
this, why does he do that?
Because and it'll justeventually lead down a chain.
And, you know, 100,000 wordslater, I've got something that
maybe kind of looks likesomething, but it's a lot of
writing and perfecting thoseconversations that was always
part of my writing process. Ijust couldn't write them down. I
was always having thoseconversations in my head, but
(28:57):
now I had the liberty of goingback through those
conversations, it's like, well,why? Why did I choose that? And
I can just go back and find itexactly in my notes. Oh, it's
right here, because I answeredthe question like this. That's
was a Liberty I didn't havebefore. So, you know, learning
how to read and write gave me alot of opportunity, and it also
(29:18):
gave me the opportunity theluxury of wasting a lot of time
with notes, when I wouldotherwise just refine this whole
entire process in my head, and Iwouldn't have to go back and,
you know, look at the notes orbuy it a certain thing when,
when you don't have the optionof writing, it frees you up for
a lot of stuff. There'sdefinitely a lot of benefit that
(29:42):
comes with that you don't getparalyzed by your notes as often
you get paralyzed in a differentsense, like you have this one
reoccurring question that getskicked around in your head, and
you don't save all the draftsfrom it. And so when it gets to
the page, people are like, wow,you. You, you know, this was the
this is your second draft. Thisis your first draft, really.
(30:02):
This looks like a finishedproduct, but all of this just
happens in the open now. And Ithink the drawback of that is I
get more paralyzed because itfeels more finished on a page.
You know, my notes have to beperfect now, because I'm writing
it down, it has to be finished,right? If I'm, that was always a
thing that was ingrained in mefrom a very young age. If
(30:22):
you're, if you're at the pointwhere you're writing, it has to
be finished. And so I takesomething that's obviously not
finished and I put it on a page,and it's like, well, it has to
be done now. So I look at mynotes as if they have to be the
finished thing. And that'sprobably the most paralyzing
thing about writing all of thisdown. I should probably cut that
out of my workflow, at leastsome of that, because it's not
doing me any favors. But that'sthe point about it now.
Donell Pons (30:49):
And we talked about how it's been an evolution, I
think you've hit on somethingreally important, though, and
that is when, typically, whenwe're teaching writing, and all
through the years we'vediscussed writing in one way or
another, because it's a part ofmy life. It was part of a career
that I had prior. So writing hasbeen something we've talked
about a lot as a family, Ithink, more so than maybe other
(31:09):
families, and maybe less thanother families, who maybe have
many people that are writers inthe household. At any rate,
we're somewhere in there. And soyou've had more discussion about
writing, I think, than than alot of people, but it's
interesting that when we teachwriting, you're absolutely right
the drafting idea, even ifdrafting was difficult for other
reasons, because of dyslexia,whatever else, the the actual
(31:31):
formation of letters waschallenging, we don't really
teach that very well, do we?
When we do the writing process,the drafting is part of writing.
Unknown (31:39):
Yeah, the saying that writing is rewriting. That's
partially true. Again, it's theidea like writing, like typing
or forming letters, is notwriting. It's the idea that
you're trying to achieve. That'sthe writing part, and that's
always gets missed, mixed up allthe time. People can write
endlessly about absolutelynothing at all. That's not the
writing process. When I talkabout writing or putting words
(32:01):
down on a page. I'm purelytalking about the refinement of
ideas. It's not your word countthat gets you there in the end.
It's how refined is your idea bythe end of it, and whether that
takes you know as many words asit takes you know, however long
or short that may be, that's thetrue writing process that
happens with that refinement.
But it's not words.
Donell Pons (32:23):
It's interesting.
Okay, do you dare share with uswhat are you working on right
now? Creatively,
Unknown (32:31):
I'm working on a story about your dad, actually,
Donell Pons (32:35):
yeah. So this is news to me. You heard it here.
Unknown (32:39):
I don't share what I'm working on, because they know
you don't. Most of them neverget finished, so I'd rather not
talk about it. But yeah, I'mworking on a story about you're
at least inspired by your dad.
Okay, yeah, interesting. It's afun one. Got supernatural
elements. The thing that Ialways like, I think I can
finally pull it off now, okay,hopefully I learned something
(33:03):
since I was two.
Donell Pons (33:06):
You have definitely learned something. What's
interesting, I want to pointthis out, too, is you're not
afraid. This is what I reallylike. You're not afraid to say,
Hey, I wrote a bunch of stuff.
It didn't really go anywhere.
But you've learned somethingevery time you do that. And I
think you're okay with that, youseem to be okay with
Unknown (33:23):
that. Yeah, it took a long time, but the growth aspect
of writing, I now value morethan the finished product
itself, which is back a littlebackwards, because the finished
product, it does have greatvalue, but if you only approach
it from I'm only gettingsomething from the finished
(33:44):
product, then you're never goingto start because you'll
inevitably fail a lot more timesthan you'll succeed. And when
those are your odds, the act ofgetting a finished product and
only gaining something from thefinished product doesn't make
any sense. That's a risk you'dnever take. So in order to be
okay with those risks, to getback on the horse, every time
(34:06):
you fail, every time an ideafalls through or it doesn't
happen, you have to feel likeyou're getting something out of
it. And so that process isalways more important, and
that's why I don't often sharewhat I'm working on is because,
more oftentimes than not, thatproduct always, you know, it
follows through, and I don'thave something finished to show
(34:27):
for it, but I always feel likeI'm, I have to be getting
something out of it. Otherwise,what's the point? Yeah, but that
it took a long time to findthat, to actually truly believe
that was always something Iheard and I knew, and it made
sense, and I'd say it, but Ididn't truly believe it until,
(34:49):
you know, five years ago ish,when I was like, I was ready to
give up writing completely, andjust Yeah, it's not for me. It's
not going to happen. Yeah, butlike, I had to, I felt almost
compelled to keep writing yousay, like you brought up
earlier. I'm glad story wasn'tbeaten out of you. I don't think
(35:12):
story can be beaten out of me. Idon't think any amount of abuse
could happen, because that's mydefault mode. That's the thing
I'll always return to. That'snot something I'm trying to
fight against, to push for, tostrive for. It's just there. I
don't think you can kill it.
Yeah, so, you know, a lot ofwhat my ideas about writing had
(35:35):
to come from. It kind of make mypeace with all the process I
didn't, all the processes, allthe things that I didn't like
about it. And you know, one ofthose truths that I had to make
peace with is that you gainexperience every single time,
because otherwise it's it's justgoing to drive you crazy. You're
going to keep doing it, and it'sgoing to keep driving you crazy.
(35:55):
So you better make peace withit. And I made peace through
understanding that I was alwaysgaining experience regardless of
a finished product
Donell Pons (36:04):
or not. Gosh, okay, that's very insightful and very
meta. So that moves me into mynext thought. Let's imagine a
teacher's listening to thisright now, a teacher with a
student a lot like you. What doyou want them to understand? I
Hmm,
Unknown (36:23):
that they're worth it.
They're worth the time andeffort it takes. Because, from a
teacher's perspective, it doestake a lot of time, and it does
take a lot of effort, and it'snot so it's not your first
choice to teach a student withdisabilities. It is hard, and I
recognize that it's a verydifficult thing, but I want you
to understand that it's worthit, that child will surprise you
(36:47):
and will offer more to thosearound them, to society as a
whole, if you put in thateffort, if they really have that
drive, you know, they can go onand do amazing things. I'm not
saying that I am going to bethat guy to go on and do amazing
things. I'm not there. But, youknow, there's a lot of people
(37:08):
with dyslexia, and are youreally going to tell me that
none of them will go on to doincredible things, and they
don't have to go out and inventthe latest and greatest
whatever, and change somebody'slife, but to the people around
them, they matter. They're worthit. To those around them, if you
just take a moment tounderstand, you know these they
matter in their community, tothose that love them, and it's
(37:32):
not your first choice to taketime, to take that extra time
and extra resources that theyneed. It is hard, it is
difficult,
Donell Pons (37:45):
but they matter.
They make a difference. Whatwould you tell your 10 year old
self? I
Unknown (37:50):
don't think I could have told them anything that
would have changed it, because,you know, the person I am today
was the effect of everyone elsearound me who was there every
single day. That's what reallychanged me. It was you. And it
was taking me down to the U of UReading Clinic. It was giving me
the intervention, the help thatI needed. I don't think any one
(38:14):
moment, I don't think a singlemoment of me going back and
saying something and giving it apiece of advice would have
changed that, because I wouldhave to be there. It would have
had to be from someone that wasthere every single day, in their
corner every single day. That'swhat changes them. It's not just
this one off moment. You have tobe there again and again and
again and again. So I don'tthink I could say anything, and
(38:36):
I don't think it would havechanged the outcome. It has to
be continued.
Donell Pons (38:40):
Yeah. See, look at you. What do you wish people
understood about dyslexia orabout being a creative person in
a system that doesn't alwaysmake room for difference? What
do you wish more peopleunderstood about that?
Unknown (38:57):
I feel like a lot of that just comes from the A it
feels a little bit like a lackof empath. Well, it is a lack of
empathy, but it's not, I don'tmean that to sound like mean,
these people don't have theexperience of what it's like to
have dyslexia. That's totallyokay. That's, you know, that's a
perfectly reasonable thing notto have an experience for if
(39:19):
you're non dyslexic, I'm notfaulting them for that. It's,
it's thinking that becausesomeone can't write, or because
someone can't read, that all ofthe other judgments that we make
around that it's like, well,they can't possibly be smart.
They can't possibly, you know,do these great things. I wish
(39:46):
we'd stop tying intelligence tojust reading and writing,
because that feels like thepinnacle of intelligence is what
you read and it's what youwrite, and it's how you write
and it's how you read, and just.
Abilities alone, it feels like adefinition issue with that. So
allowing Dyslexics to exist in aspace and be creative in a space
(40:06):
where it's not really toleratedor not appreciated, I should say
it comes from a definition ofintelligence, and we have to
decouple that from being able toread and write, because at a
young age, you understood thatmy intelligence was not in how
many words I read or what I wasreading or what I was writing,
(40:27):
but it was the stories I wasable to tell in the medium that
I was able to work in that wasavailable to me. It's the
medium. Doesn't necessarily makethe artist. It's that art in
whatever medium they choose,like you can have greatness
there again. I don't want to patmy own back, but what I was
saying wasn't great, or thestories I was telling was not
(40:49):
greatness. But there wassomething there. There was a
spark there. It was somethingand you were able to recognize
that. So in whatever medium thatsomeone works in, recognize the
talent, recognize the spark,whatever that is. I think that's
a really important thing to walkaway from. Don't write it off
because of the medium. It's thething that they're trying to do
(41:09):
in the medium that should beanalyzed through that lens.
Donell Pons (41:13):
So interesting because that's pretty deep.
Actually, what you're saying ispretty deep, but you can take it
on the surface of what you'resaying, totally understood. But
what you're really asking us todo, what you're what you're
saying and pleading with, issaying, hey, look, view
individuals, view people as morethan just the situation that
(41:34):
they're in. In essence, really,who are they at the heart? What
is it they're offering?
Unknown (41:42):
Yeah, and if that's what, if they're offering is
oral storytelling, then take itat the take it in context. It's
for the context of oralstorytelling. What is it doing?
Right? And then we can start toanalyze, you know, someone's
intelligence from that, not thatyou should, but that there's
(42:03):
more than just the medium. Themedium itself doesn't make the
greatness. The greatness comesfrom more than that. And again,
to add on to that, just a littlebit, if someone can't do
something, and if it's reallyhard not to do that thing, like
it's it's really hard to getthrough school and to never
write, you have to write at somepoint. So if someone doesn't
(42:26):
have the ability to write, theyprobably have a good reason to
do that. Right? If I go throughschool and someone can't speak,
they probably have a goodreason. My gut instinct isn't,
oh, they just don't likespeaking, it's they probably
have a really good reason fornot doing that when it's not
easy to get through class and tonever write something, it's not
(42:46):
easy to get through school andto have never read something,
those are not easy things to do.
Those are really, really, reallyhard things to do. Like to get
through that as a really roughexperience. So if someone has
those deficits, just assume, onface value, that they have a
really, really good reason forthose deficits, because it's not
at all easy, right? Lazy isbeing able to write but turning
(43:10):
in a half baked assignment everysingle and it's just kind of
whatever, and I not doing it atall. That is. It's insane. Yeah,
they have to have it. Yeah, theyhave to have a really good
reason for that. So don'timmediately assume because
someone can't read or can'twrite, that it comes from that
(43:31):
laziness. It's not easy to notread, to not write, it's not
easy to be illiterate. In amodern society. Is not an all
easy thing. It's not easyemotionally at all. So just if
there was anything that I wantthe audience to take away from
that, specifically the nondyslexic audience, is that it's
not easy when someone has such agreat deficit like that, it
(43:52):
isn't it is not an easy thing,and they have a good reason for
it.
Donell Pons (43:59):
Kate, you just that, just that alone
approaching so it shifts yourthinking around, instead of
looking at a situation like thatand saying, oh, imagine this
kid's making it hard for me yetagain, or they're making it
difficult. Instead shift it tosay how difficult it must be to
be in that person's shoes, beingthe one who's unable to give you
(44:22):
that written whatever to read,that whatever you've just asked
them to read. It's not easy tobe that person doing that right
now. Yeah, that's interesting.
Okay, because it
Unknown (44:31):
looks like it doesn't require much. Like, Oh, you
don't have to write theassignment. You're not gonna Oh,
that must be so easy for you,because it's difficult for me to
write. It's like, no, it's evenharder not to write. It's even
harder to go through everysingle parent teacher conference
meeting and have them talk aboutyou like that. It's not at all
easy. It's it's difficult indifferent ways, and it's in a
(44:54):
lot of ways, much, much harderthan just, you know, being able
to write but not. Liking it,yeah, but just that simple test,
you know, if I was this studentand if I wasn't doing this, how
hard would that be on me? Howdifficult, and more oftentimes
than not, the answer is really,really difficult. It would be
(45:14):
very, very hard on you as astudent
Donell Pons (45:17):
that's super insightful, just that right
there, and not just aboutreading and writing. You've got
me thinking about a lot ofthings where we make assumptions
about people who don't seem tobe doing the thing, and our
immediate thought is, oh,they're just being difficult or
whatever. But boy, that's a realthat's a real shift in thought
process, isn't it for us? Yeah,to think it's not easy to be
(45:39):
that person who a isn't able tomaybe physically lift that or do
that thing too? Superinteresting? Yeah. Okay, so you
always said you're the mostinsightful one. What did I say?
Thank you. You do try. Youdeliver too. That's the thing.
You deliver. Every time I haveYes, I have appreciated that you
(46:03):
granted me this time, because,you know, I've been after you
for a while, and just the otherday, I randomly asked, just on
the off chance, and I just threwit out there. Gosh, would you be
willing to have a conversationwith me? It's dyslexia Awareness
Month, and when you said, yes,what did I do? I jumped on it,
didn't
Unknown (46:22):
I? Yeah, you jumped on it. Very excited. Again, a fire
in your eye.
Donell Pons (46:27):
I've jumped right on that. Well, this has been
delightful. Bridge. Is thereanything else you'd like to say
you didn't get to touch onanything left unsaid? You said
some great things. By the way,when
Unknown (46:38):
I was a kid, I never really you guys would tell me
that you know, maybe you know,one day at the end of this
you'll forget what it's like tohave dyslexia. You won't even
know what it's like. And I neverbelieved that until you know you
live with this thing everysingle day, and it's a chip on
your shoulder every single day,and it's a problem every single
(47:01):
day, and it feels like when it'syour every single day, it'll
never leave, and that will beyour life, and that's the best
it's gonna ever get, and you'llbe at the same level forever.
And so when you guys would tellme that you know, one day you'll
forget about it, one day youwon't know what it's like to
(47:22):
have dyslexia or to, you know,have it as bad as you do, it
seemed like a lie, and Icouldn't believe it, and you
guys were right, becauseeventually you live with that
chip on your shoulder, and thenit gets a little lighter and A
little lighter and a littlelighter, until eventually you
(47:43):
don't know it's even there. Tilleventually your biggest problems
won't be dyslexia. You'll stillhave problems, they just won't
be dyslexia. And as far as I'mconcerned, those are good
problems to have, and eventuallyit does. Eventually, if you work
hard enough at it, you'll youwon't remember what it's like.
(48:08):
That's a really hard thing toconvince someone living it every
single day. But it can happen.
So don't just remember that itcan happen. You know, eventually
the biggest problem in your lifewon't be dyslexia, if you keep
working at it.
Donell Pons (48:28):
Wow, wow. And you are a testament to early and
heavy intervention, a realtestament to that. So I put that
plug out there too, as we'retrying to push legislation to
get in earlier and push harder.
What a story that is. Wow.
That's powerful. I've alwayssaid that being Bridgers mother
has forced me to rethinkeverything I thought I knew
(48:52):
about learning and aboutteaching, and even after all
these years, I'm still learningfrom this boy who once said, I'm
going to tell you something youdon't know. That is mostly true.
You're right, because whatyou've taught me is something
most people don't know, notreally. That brilliance doesn't
(49:14):
always look like we expect itto, and that different isn't
deficient, and that the kids wecall struggling readers may, in
fact, be telling stories we justdon't know how to hear yet. So
if today's episode resonatedwith you as a parent, an
educator or someone who learns alittle differently, I hope
(49:36):
you'll share it. Start aconversation, ask a question.
Tell a story, because someoneout there is waiting to feel
seen. Thanks for listening andthanks for talking to me.
Unknown (49:48):
Bridger, thank you. I had a great time.
Narrator (49:54):
Thanks for joining us today. Literacy talks comes to
you from Reading Horizons. Whereliteracy momentum begins, visit
reading horizons.com/literacy.
Talks to access episodes andresources to support your
journey in the science ofreading.
Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy
leaders and championseverywhere, brought to you by
Reading Horizons. Literacy Talksis the place to discover new
ideas, trends, insights andpractical strategies for helping
all learners reach readingproficiency. Our hosts are Stacy
Hurst, a professor at SouthernUtah University and Chief
(00:27):
Academic Advisor for ReadingHorizons. Donell Pons, a
recognized expert and advocatein literacy, dyslexia and
special education, and LindsayKemeny, an elementary classroom
teacher, author and speaker. Nowlet's talk literacy.
Donell Pons (00:46):
You're listening to literacy talks, and today is an
episode that's going to be alittle different. It's personal,
it's important, and it's a storythat's been a long time in the
making. The heart of another isa dark forest always, no matter
how close it has been to one'sown. Willa Cather, it's an
author that I really love. I'vealways loved that quote. It
(01:09):
reminds me that understandinganother person, even your own
child, is never simple. Andtoday's episode is deeply
personal. It's about my youngestson, Bridger, and you've
probably heard me talk about himbefore on the podcast, and I
never thought I'd get to talk toI'm just going to say that
again, he's 23 now. He's awriter, a storyteller, and one
(01:29):
of the most creative, thoughtfulpeople I know. But his path
hasn't been easy from a veryyoung age. Bridger struggled to
read and write, eventuallydiagnosed with dyslexia,
dysgraphia and dyscalculia.
School was often a painfulmismatch for how his brain
worked, and yet, from the momenthe could speak, he was telling
(01:50):
stories. And in fact, whenBridger was two, he would begin
almost every conversation withthis race. I'm going to tell you
something that you don't knowthat is mostly true. I kid you
not. That was the phrase. And nomatter what followed, people
listened. He had that kind ofpresence, big brown eyes, a
(02:13):
contagious smile and an abilityto spin a story so detailed and
alive it could go on for anhour. I guess I'm hoping for the
same kind of magic here today,even though I'm not too and I
don't have the eyes or thecharm, but I do have something
to say, and more importantly,today, you'll hear him say it.
This episode is a conversation.
(02:39):
It's a mother and a son talkingabout what it was like to grow
up in a system that didn'talways understand how he learned
and how he learned to understandhimself anyway along the way,
we'll talk about the teachers hemissed it, the stories that
saved him, and an author whobecomes a mentor through The
(02:59):
pages, Brian MacDonald, whohelped him see his difference as
a gift, not a flaw. Before webegin, I want to read a short
passage from something I wroteyears ago in the preface to a
book I never quite finished. Sothat might be a topic of
conversation for Bridger myselftoday, is why I didn't finish
that, a book that started as away to make sense of this really
(03:20):
challenging journey. Here goesfirst. Why? Actually, I think
being the mother of a child withdyslexia makes you think about a
lot of things like why learningto read is so critical to
academic success, and why notlearning to read is so
prevalent, yet still shrouded insecrecy and a certain sense of
personal failure, and still,after all these years of
(03:44):
talking, reading, studying andlearning about dyslexia, I'm not
convinced I'm any closer totruly understanding the
beautiful complexity of how myson learns, or the many ways in
which his difference can enrichmy life and the lives of those
around him. So today, I hopeyou'll listen not just with your
(04:06):
ears, but with your heart,because Bridgers story isn't
just his, it belongs to everychild who thinks in ways who
don't yet know, or we don't yetknow how to teach, and to every
parent or teacher trying to walkthrough that dark forest
together. This is something youdon't know that is mostly true.
(04:30):
So let's begin with thatintroduction. Bridger, my
special guest, right? SoBridger, do you remember the
kinds of stories you used totell when you were little,
before you could write themdown, before reading was even on
your radar. You had this abilityto hold a room with your
(04:52):
imagination. Where did that comefrom? And do you remember it?
What do you remember that? Um.
Unknown (05:00):
My memory of my earlier years are a bit spotty, but I
remember being read to a lot,and the feeling, the feelings
that I would have as when I wasbeing read to, were very potent.
It almost felt compelled tochase those same feelings
(05:22):
outside of a book. And becausereading was a fairly, you know,
inaccessible thing for me,telling those stories was a way
to get it to achieve that samefeeling
Donell Pons (05:34):
that's so interesting you talking about,
because you really lived it,right? You lived those stories.
You were there, yeah, yeah,yeah. So Bridger, for me,
sometimes I wondered if the factthat you weren't, you weren't
you didn't have the page. Youweren't reading the words on the
page, but you were listening andhearing it, almost removed a
barrier in a way, to where youwere. You could access a story
(05:56):
in a way that somebody elsewho's maybe looking at the page
and going over the words,there's a distance between them
and the story. What do youthink?
Unknown (06:04):
Yeah, it for sure. You know, telling a story is a lot
different than hearing it, theexperience of it. And so, you
know, putting myself in thatseat of now telling the story,
having listened to a ton of thembefore it was it was very
different, and it came with adifferent kind of reward. You
know, it's rewarding to hear astory. It's rewarding in a
(06:25):
completely different way to havean audience respond to what
you're telling them, and that,in a lot of ways, is more
rewarding, at least at a veryyoung age. I found that far more
interesting. I still enjoyedlistening to stories, but, you
know, telling them was was moreenriching in a lot of other
ways.
Donell Pons (06:45):
That's so interesting, because you would
take people on a journey. Wasthat the rewarding part because
you really did it was
Unknown (06:51):
in the reaction. It was the shock and awe, you know. And
I think you you saw that in, youknow, other aspects of my
behavior, where I would saythings just to get a rise out of
people. And you know, that wouldweave into the story as well.
You know, what is the mostshocking, unbelievable, mostly
true thing I could tell youwithout losing you along the
(07:13):
way, but also shock you andsurprise you. And again, as I
said, listening to thosestories, you know that gives
you. It gave me a lot. It was,it was an incredible experience,
and I wanted to give that toothers as well. And so it was
like a give and take. I feltlike it was going both ways.
When I tried to tell a storythat audience was always a super
(07:34):
important piece, so
Donell Pons (07:37):
interesting, because now when I think back on
it, that is so true, howengaging the whole thing was,
and so young, at a very youngage, to be able to do that. What
were your favorite kinds ofstories to tell? Did you have a
favorite kind of story, or didyour mind just go wherever
Unknown (07:54):
it went? I told a wide variety of stories, but what I
was always drawn to was and Iwas never very good at telling
them, but stories about thesupernatural, I really, really
like, I really loved, but I justcouldn't find a way to tell them
very well. So instead of havingsome supernatural element, it
(08:16):
would be real life things thatwere pushed to an extreme that
you almost couldn't believe themwithout tipping fully into the
supernatural. Yeah, that wasjust kind of my way of trying to
tell those stories, but justsimply not knowing how to pull
them. Was
Donell Pons (08:31):
it vocabulary that you lacked at the time? Or
Unknown (08:35):
I feel like it was for lack of a term for lack of a
better term respect, because noone's going to respect this
story, you know, a two year oldtelling you a story like, how
many people are going to look atthat and say, Oh, this is a
folklore. You know, this is notsupposed to be taken literally.
(08:56):
People are just going to sayit's a two year old and he's
lying, you know. So it wouldhave to be rooted in reality for
people to take me seriously.
Because when you take a storyseriously, that's when those
emotions happen. That's whenyou're the most invested. You
know, regardless if it isfantasy or, you know, it has
supernatural elements, you haveto take it seriously. But coming
(09:16):
from a two year old, peopledon't take it seriously. So it
had to be rooted in reality. Ithad to be just believable
enough.
Donell Pons (09:25):
That's so interesting, because I was going
to ask you if it felt like playor something more serious, but
there was a lot of thought here.
Unknown (09:32):
Yeah, it wasn't necessarily those words didn't
form in my head. You know, thesewhole conversations about
really, what was I doing?
Really, what was I trying tosay? This was all passively
understood that I'm not going tobe taken seriously. So I have
to, you know, there's a rulesthat I have to play by because
of, you know, who I am and howpeople will perceive me.
Donell Pons (09:54):
Okay, that's so interesting to me. So let's move
into the school years, becausethis was all preschool and so.
Course, I'm thinking, thislittle guy love story tells a
great story. You know, maybewe've dodged the dyslexia bullet
because we knew it was withinthe family history. Your dad had
it, right? So we're thinking,Oh, geez. Well, maybe we got
lucky and then we hit theschool. And so let's talk about
(10:14):
that. When did you first noticethat learning, especially
reading and writing, felt harderthan it did for other kids? When
did you realize that
Unknown (10:24):
the alphabet, I think, was the first when we started
learning the alphabet, and Irealized that other kids could
listen, they could hear thewords A, B, C, and then they'd
be able to say the words A, B,C, and for some reason, I'd get
stuck on B, or I get stuck on C,and it took, I mean, in talking
(10:44):
to, you know, Dad just and whatit was like doing the alphabet,
you know, he told me. He said ittook about like six months for
me to learn. It like six monthsto learn A to Z, to be able to
do that on my own, and thatwasn't normal. I saw those
(11:07):
students in class. I saw whatthey could do, and I couldn't do
that. So it became very, veryclear very, very early on that I
wasn't there was somethingwrong. I'm not like the other
students.
Donell Pons (11:21):
Yeah, we're talking really young. We're talking so
that's Kinder first Yeah, yeah,kinder first grade. Were there
moments that really stuck withyou, times that stood out, where
you felt really misunderstood,labeled, even
Unknown (11:40):
I remember you one time. This would have been about
fourth grade, and I said, I haddyslexia, you know, that's when
we knew what it was, and I hadreceived remediation for it. And
one of the other students said,Oh, really read this passage.
And she pointed to, you know,the sheet in front of us,
(12:02):
whatever we were working on atthe time, and I was able to read
through it, and other kids werelike, you don't have dyslexia.
No, you wouldn't be able to readit. And I felt like they just
didn't get it. And dyslexia wasalways clear to me. That was
never something I brought upwith other people, but when I
(12:23):
heard that, I was like, peoplereally don't know what it is.
People have no idea what I'vegone through. And to even to try
and explain that that to them,when they just saw me read a
passage completely undoesanything I could do, anything I
could say to them to give theman accurate picture of what
dyslexia is. That was a veryearly experience, very eye
(12:45):
opening to how people reallyview it, and how little they
understand about dyslexia, justthe average person. That was
one. And there are, you know,more than a handful of
experiences in a classroom whereI was asked to read something by
the teacher, and I frankly,couldn't, and sorry, this might
(13:07):
continue on longer than Iplanned, but there was a program
we had in elementary schoolwhere we would read to the
younger grades. And so Iremember going into the
classroom like this would havebeen about third grade and
reading to the real youngstudents. And, you know, we'd
all get into a room, and we'dall, you know, pick up a book,
Find a buddy, and read to them,and I would mumble through the
(13:31):
noise of this room. We were allreading in the same room, and it
was just a, you know, a droninghum of other kids reading. And I
would just mumble along and getlost in it. And eventually my
partner would stop payingattention because I couldn't
read to them. That feels reallyterrible when you're expected to
do something for someone else,you're expected to help, you're
expected to teach, and I can'tdo that. I can't offer what I'm
(13:54):
supposed to do, and that'sreally defeating. That one stuck
with me for a long time. Yeah.
Donell Pons (14:01):
So at this point, your teachers know you have
dyslexia. At this point, you'vegot an IEP, it stated, but
clearly they didn't know. Wasthere ever a teacher that knew?
What was that like withteachers? What was that
experience like? Did a lot ofthem not know?
Unknown (14:18):
A lot of them didn't, yeah, unless I said dyslexia,
they wouldn't, you know, they'dnever say it. And even after I
would say dyslexia, or dyslexiawas brought up, or they looked
at my 504 later on, it wasalways a battle to get
accommodations. That was never,I think maybe one time, one
(14:41):
time, and all throughout highschool or middle school and
elementary school one time, andall that span, did one teacher
actually take me aside foraccommodations on a test for
extra time, only one time wherethey took the enact the
initiative to actually do it?
Do. Yeah. So no, teachers didnot know or care or knew what
(15:02):
they were looking at. Yeah.
Donell Pons (15:07):
Did you have one, even one, just the one that took
you aside for theaccommodations? Did you have
anyone that really understood ormade it plain that they
understood?
Unknown (15:18):
I don't remember what it was like in second grade, but
I hear you. I heard you talkabout my second grade teacher as
someone who the one who caughtit, but I don't remember what it
was like with her. You know,that's a little bit too far
back. But beyond that, I reallycan't tell you, it's really felt
like no one really understoodpast that point.
Donell Pons (15:40):
That's so interesting when we think about
the school experience withdyslexia. So something I wrote
years ago Bridger, was about, asyour mom, how I felt
misunderstood. So I'm going toread that little bit here, and
then I won't read anymore, Ipromise, but it's just this
little section. I'm tired ofbeing misunderstood as the
mother of a child with dyslexiaor a learning disability or slow
(16:03):
processing, because apparently,it's all the same thing, and
it's used simultaneously toexplain why my boy struggles to
read. Do you think parents andkids both feel that sense of
being misread? I think we bothdo. We're listening to you talk.
What do you think
Unknown (16:18):
it's hard to approach it, because, again, I'm not, you
know, a parent, and I don't havea child with dyslexia, but you
know, if your child's gettingthis misunderstood when they're
the one who has it, you can'timagine what that's like from a
parent's perspective, and howthat relationship must be like,
you know, because it's shared,that misunderstanding is shared.
(16:41):
You know, when your childsuffers, you suffer, right? And
if that suffering is beingmisunderstood, you as a parent
are being misunderstood. It goesboth ways.
Donell Pons (16:52):
That's so interesting. It's got me
thinking about our experiencesand how we kind of both were
having as a parent, I, on my endam trying to work with an
educator that doesn'tunderstand, and you, on your end
are the student in the classroomwhere the educator doesn't
understand, and in differentways, we're both engaging with a
(17:16):
system that doesn't get how towork with us. Right on your end
and on my end, that's sointeresting to think about, and
how much of that impacts andstays with people in families,
right? That might have more thanone child with dyslexia. Your
Dad's experience with schoolcertainly impacted the way he
felt about coming to yourschool, didn't it? Yeah, how
(17:37):
comfortable, uncomfortable hewas to be in the school that's
really interesting. Okay, I'mgoing to jump into something
that, for me, is a reallypositive subject, and it's a fun
one for me, it's how you so wetalked about the fact that when
you were young story, you werevery into story, and it was oral
storytelling. And then as yougot older, it was interesting,
because you found ways to engagewith story. You would put
(18:01):
together these books that Idon't know if you remember this
bridge, you're pretty young, butyou would staple together large
reams of paper, like stacks.
That's all you wanted. Was a bigold stack of paper for a
printer. And then you would messaround with paper and make these
books of your own. And you wouldwrite story, but you would be
writing phonetically. Obviouslybest to your account to write so
that I would then have to try toread it back to you. Do you
(18:23):
remember any of those?
Unknown (18:26):
Yeah, I remember a few times. Yeah. Okay. What
Donell Pons (18:29):
was my favorite?
Was that what I was reading it,because the obviously, some of
it was phonetic spelling, so Iwas trying to guess at the read.
And you would go, nope, that'snot it, because I would read it
incorrectly. I was the best. Soyou engage with story all
through the way. And thenthankfully, we didn't kill story
in you, because I worried aboutthat bridge with all those
experiences in school that wouldkill the story right out of you,
(18:50):
right your desire to even tellor be around a story. And
thankfully, you held on to that,which I am so grateful for. And
a few years ago, you found amentor in the work of someone
named Brian McDonald. He's ascreenwriter and a story expert,
really, who's also dyslexic, andI don't know that you told me
that when you first startedreading him, and then maybe you
(19:10):
told me later, but tell us howyou discovered his work.
Unknown (19:17):
I wanted to improve in writing, and I started a little
writing club with being a buddy.
And this is in high school, so afew years ago, and he had
mentioned on the offhand thispodcast that you are a
storyteller podcast, I thought,you know Cheryl, I'll check it
(19:38):
out. And you know, he wassinging high praises for it. So
it was like, okay, sure, I'llcheck it out. And, you know, the
first episode I clicked on, Iwas like, this, he's making a
lot of sense. You know, it wasBrian talking to his co host,
and I'm like, everything he'ssaying is making a lot of sense,
and it's speaking to. Ideas thatI already felt were true. I just
(20:00):
couldn't give voice to them. Ididn't know what it was called.
And then suddenly this personshows up and is is saying
exactly what I've been feelingthis entire time with the things
that I've already felt aboutstory, and he's able to say it
way better than I could ever ina clarity that I could never and
Yeah. From then it was justYeah. Everything just kind of
(20:24):
clicked. After that. For story,a lot fell into place. I was
really thankful to have it. Andso for that podcast, you know,
they've had tons of episodes,and I've, I've gone through, you
know, each of those episodes. Iwatched, you know, them at least
five times each. So I love it. Igo back to it. I reference it
all the time. So it was a reallygreat resource.
Donell Pons (20:47):
Okay, so tell me this, because you are right. It
really spoke to you. What was itabout the way he described story
that resonated, that made sense,
Unknown (20:57):
that it wasn't random.
You know, it's not just aboutmaking people feel something.
It's about why you're makingsomeone feel something. That's
what story is for, and story asa teaching tool. We're not just
making people feel things forentertainment. People find a lot
of things entertaining. I wishthat was one of the things I
learned earlier on. Youmentioned at the beginning of
(21:17):
this show that I would tellstories, and it was about the
shock and awe, and it was aboutentertaining, and it was about
making people feel something.
But it wasn't just forentertainment. I was making
people feel something because Iwanted to feel something as
well. I was trying to sharesomething that I felt was super
important, the things that Ifelt when listening to story
(21:39):
that was really important to me,because I didn't get that
anywhere else, and so to givethat to someone else was It was
super important. It was superpowerful. And so I was doing
something important, and I knewstory was important. And when I
heard Brian talk about storiesand that it's not just for
entertainment, it serves agreater purpose. It helps people
(22:00):
solve problems in their life.
It's about survival. And overallsurvival is about life and
death. You know, there'semotions that have to be played,
that have to be factored in. Sowhen Brian's talking about that,
when I first heard him, youknow, the understanding the
importance of story and whatit's truly for that resonated
with me, you know, tenfold so
Donell Pons (22:25):
beyond him being able to explain things in a way
that really made sense, maybefor the first time, just the way
that he approached talking aboutstory. What did it mean for you
to find out he had dyslexia?
That he was dyslexic.
Unknown (22:40):
When I first heard it, I was a little surprised. And
then looking back on it, waslike, Well, of course, the
approach that, you know, itcan't all just be random.
There's a lot of like, discretefacts that you I usually try and
avoid. This approach ofmemorizing a bunch of discrete
facts. Story is this? Story isthat, and these things don't
(23:02):
tend to comport with each other.
That really doesn't make sense,and this may just be a dyslexic
way of thinking, but everythingkind of has to have a reason,
and everything has to branch offof that reason, like for
learning grammar rules. If Ican't, if I don't really know
why a grammar rule is in aspecific way, I'm going to have
a really hard time understandingthat rule if I don't, if there's
not something to compare it to,if it doesn't follow some kind
(23:25):
of rule set that makes sense tome. So having story follow a
very specific rule set, thereare three acts, and each of
these acts do does a veryspecific thing for a very
specific purpose, and thatthere's an underlying structure
that permeates all effectivestory. You know, having that
this thing that answers all ofyour questions made a lot of
(23:48):
sense to me. Instead of justdisjointed parts, one connects
here and there and yeah, I wasnever going to hold on to that.
Yeah, that's just the way Ithink. And I think that's a
fairly common approach withdyslexia, having this, you know,
ultimate rule that everythingbranches off from
Donell Pons (24:10):
that's interesting.
Okay, so you've got me thinkingabout a couple of things here
that I kind of want to explore alittle bit. That person who said
to you when you were able toread the passage, and they said,
Oh, you don't have dyslexia.
Does your mind ever go to boy?
If they could see me now, theynever would believe I have
dyslexia. Does that ever do you?
Unknown (24:29):
Yeah, it's a blessing to have remediation, but it to
be, you know, as well off as Iam now, and that's a great
thing. I'd never trade it foranything. You know, it's great
my abilities now, but they comewith a cost, and that cost is
you lose, you lose part of beingthat community now, because when
(24:53):
I'm talking with my friends andthey have dyslexia, it's like,
Well, geez, I'm relying on, youknow, 10. Year old memories in
order to try and relate to youabout this thing that I
experienced, you know, back inelementary school. That's really
hard. I don't have a lot ofcurrent, present experiences
(25:13):
that I can help resonate youwith. So I'm having to rely on,
you know, memories in order to,you know, share some common
understanding with people withother Dyslexics, and so a lot of
times it feels like stolendollar. You know, when people
say, Oh, but you're dyslexic, ohyeah. And it's like, well, yeah,
but not really, yeah. It's hard,you know, you you get to be your
(25:40):
own person, but you don't reallyfit in both worlds. You don't
fit in the Dyslexic world andyou don't really belong in the
non dyslexic world. You don'treally have a place. I guess I
don't get me wrong. It's greatbeing able to read as well as I
do. It's a wonderful thing. Andagain, I wouldn't trade it for
anything, but it's not allsunshine and roses. You know,
(26:02):
you don't get to feel part ofsomething anymore, even if that
thing that you were a part ofwas a struggle. That's
something,
Donell Pons (26:08):
yeah, that's so interesting, because I hadn't
really thought about that,because your your dad, is so
proud, obviously, of all thatyou've been able to achieve.
And, you know, he has said manytimes, I never thought that I
would have a son with dyslexiawho reads like this, who writes
like this, who wants to write,he finds it incredible, but he
also doesn't understand it. Andthere's a distance between the
(26:29):
two of you, isn't there? It'salmost like two different
dyslexias,
Unknown (26:32):
isn't it? Yeah, it doesn't feel like we're having
the same experience, and we'renot. So it's very hard to have
that. Again, commonunderstanding, the shared
empathy for each other, becausehe can't empathize what it's
like to read at my level, andit's very hard for me to rely on
such old memories to empathizewith his experience.
Donell Pons (26:52):
Yeah, that's so interesting. I hadn't heard you
articulate it quite like thatbefore, huh? That's it. You're
straddling two worlds, aren'tyou, in many ways. So obviously,
your relationship with writingis unique. You love a story. You
actually live in story. But theact of writing itself hasn't
(27:16):
always been easy, and I'm noteven implying that it's easy
today.
Unknown (27:19):
Yeah, when has it been easy, right?
Donell Pons (27:23):
And as any writer knows, it's never easy, Yeah,
but how do you write now? What'syour process like, and is it
evolving?
Unknown (27:33):
It is evolving, yeah, earlier, like in my early years,
it would be writing downeverything phonetically, you
know, and kind of brute forcingit really. And so I had to take
a lot of there were a lot ofcreative liberties that I
otherwise would have taken at ayoung age that I didn't because
(27:54):
I didn't know how to spell thatword, I didn't know how to begin
to spell that word, or toformulate that on a page. So I
would just reject it, you know,choose something else that I
could find, that I could kind ofmaybe spell, that someone could
maybe guess at. But now I don'thave those same restrictions,
(28:15):
and, well, it opened up a lot ofopportunities for me. I still
find myself trying to perfectit. So I feel like the writing
phase for me, most of thewriting I do is just notes and
refining those notes. It'susually just asking questions.
I'll just write down aconversation that I'm having
(28:36):
with myself. It's like, Why doeshe do this? Well, because of
this, why does he do that?
Because and it'll justeventually lead down a chain.
And, you know, 100,000 wordslater, I've got something that
maybe kind of looks likesomething, but it's a lot of
writing and perfecting thoseconversations that was always
part of my writing process. Ijust couldn't write them down. I
was always having thoseconversations in my head, but
(28:57):
now I had the liberty of goingback through those
conversations, it's like, well,why? Why did I choose that? And
I can just go back and find itexactly in my notes. Oh, it's
right here, because I answeredthe question like this. That's
was a Liberty I didn't havebefore. So, you know, learning
how to read and write gave me alot of opportunity, and it also
(29:18):
gave me the opportunity theluxury of wasting a lot of time
with notes, when I wouldotherwise just refine this whole
entire process in my head, and Iwouldn't have to go back and,
you know, look at the notes orbuy it a certain thing when,
when you don't have the optionof writing, it frees you up for
a lot of stuff. There'sdefinitely a lot of benefit that
(29:42):
comes with that you don't getparalyzed by your notes as often
you get paralyzed in a differentsense, like you have this one
reoccurring question that getskicked around in your head, and
you don't save all the draftsfrom it. And so when it gets to
the page, people are like, wow,you. You, you know, this was the
this is your second draft. Thisis your first draft, really.
(30:02):
This looks like a finishedproduct, but all of this just
happens in the open now. And Ithink the drawback of that is I
get more paralyzed because itfeels more finished on a page.
You know, my notes have to beperfect now, because I'm writing
it down, it has to be finished,right? If I'm, that was always a
thing that was ingrained in mefrom a very young age. If
(30:22):
you're, if you're at the pointwhere you're writing, it has to
be finished. And so I takesomething that's obviously not
finished and I put it on a page,and it's like, well, it has to
be done now. So I look at mynotes as if they have to be the
finished thing. And that'sprobably the most paralyzing
thing about writing all of thisdown. I should probably cut that
out of my workflow, at leastsome of that, because it's not
doing me any favors. But that'sthe point about it now.
Donell Pons (30:49):
And we talked about how it's been an evolution, I
think you've hit on somethingreally important, though, and
that is when, typically, whenwe're teaching writing, and all
through the years we'vediscussed writing in one way or
another, because it's a part ofmy life. It was part of a career
that I had prior. So writing hasbeen something we've talked
about a lot as a family, Ithink, more so than maybe other
(31:09):
families, and maybe less thanother families, who maybe have
many people that are writers inthe household. At any rate,
we're somewhere in there. And soyou've had more discussion about
writing, I think, than than alot of people, but it's
interesting that when we teachwriting, you're absolutely right
the drafting idea, even ifdrafting was difficult for other
reasons, because of dyslexia,whatever else, the the actual
(31:31):
formation of letters waschallenging, we don't really
teach that very well, do we?
When we do the writing process,the drafting is part of writing.
Unknown (31:39):
Yeah, the saying that writing is rewriting. That's
partially true. Again, it's theidea like writing, like typing
or forming letters, is notwriting. It's the idea that
you're trying to achieve. That'sthe writing part, and that's
always gets missed, mixed up allthe time. People can write
endlessly about absolutelynothing at all. That's not the
writing process. When I talkabout writing or putting words
(32:01):
down on a page. I'm purelytalking about the refinement of
ideas. It's not your word countthat gets you there in the end.
It's how refined is your idea bythe end of it, and whether that
takes you know as many words asit takes you know, however long
or short that may be, that's thetrue writing process that
happens with that refinement.
But it's not words.
Donell Pons (32:23):
It's interesting.
Okay, do you dare share with uswhat are you working on right
now? Creatively,
Unknown (32:31):
I'm working on a story about your dad, actually,
Donell Pons (32:35):
yeah. So this is news to me. You heard it here.
Unknown (32:39):
I don't share what I'm working on, because they know
you don't. Most of them neverget finished, so I'd rather not
talk about it. But yeah, I'mworking on a story about you're
at least inspired by your dad.
Okay, yeah, interesting. It's afun one. Got supernatural
elements. The thing that Ialways like, I think I can
finally pull it off now, okay,hopefully I learned something
(33:03):
since I was two.
Donell Pons (33:06):
You have definitely learned something. What's
interesting, I want to pointthis out, too, is you're not
afraid. This is what I reallylike. You're not afraid to say,
Hey, I wrote a bunch of stuff.
It didn't really go anywhere.
But you've learned somethingevery time you do that. And I
think you're okay with that, youseem to be okay with
Unknown (33:23):
that. Yeah, it took a long time, but the growth aspect
of writing, I now value morethan the finished product
itself, which is back a littlebackwards, because the finished
product, it does have greatvalue, but if you only approach
it from I'm only gettingsomething from the finished
(33:44):
product, then you're never goingto start because you'll
inevitably fail a lot more timesthan you'll succeed. And when
those are your odds, the act ofgetting a finished product and
only gaining something from thefinished product doesn't make
any sense. That's a risk you'dnever take. So in order to be
okay with those risks, to getback on the horse, every time
(34:06):
you fail, every time an ideafalls through or it doesn't
happen, you have to feel likeyou're getting something out of
it. And so that process isalways more important, and
that's why I don't often sharewhat I'm working on is because,
more oftentimes than not, thatproduct always, you know, it
follows through, and I don'thave something finished to show
(34:27):
for it, but I always feel likeI'm, I have to be getting
something out of it. Otherwise,what's the point? Yeah, but that
it took a long time to findthat, to actually truly believe
that was always something Iheard and I knew, and it made
sense, and I'd say it, but Ididn't truly believe it until,
(34:49):
you know, five years ago ish,when I was like, I was ready to
give up writing completely, andjust Yeah, it's not for me. It's
not going to happen. Yeah, butlike, I had to, I felt almost
compelled to keep writing yousay, like you brought up
earlier. I'm glad story wasn'tbeaten out of you. I don't think
(35:12):
story can be beaten out of me. Idon't think any amount of abuse
could happen, because that's mydefault mode. That's the thing
I'll always return to. That'snot something I'm trying to
fight against, to push for, tostrive for. It's just there. I
don't think you can kill it.
Yeah, so, you know, a lot ofwhat my ideas about writing had
(35:35):
to come from. It kind of make mypeace with all the process I
didn't, all the processes, allthe things that I didn't like
about it. And you know, one ofthose truths that I had to make
peace with is that you gainexperience every single time,
because otherwise it's it's justgoing to drive you crazy. You're
going to keep doing it, and it'sgoing to keep driving you crazy.
(35:55):
So you better make peace withit. And I made peace through
understanding that I was alwaysgaining experience regardless of
a finished product
Donell Pons (36:04):
or not. Gosh, okay, that's very insightful and very
meta. So that moves me into mynext thought. Let's imagine a
teacher's listening to thisright now, a teacher with a
student a lot like you. What doyou want them to understand? I
Hmm,
Unknown (36:23):
that they're worth it.
They're worth the time andeffort it takes. Because, from a
teacher's perspective, it doestake a lot of time, and it does
take a lot of effort, and it'snot so it's not your first
choice to teach a student withdisabilities. It is hard, and I
recognize that it's a verydifficult thing, but I want you
to understand that it's worthit, that child will surprise you
(36:47):
and will offer more to thosearound them, to society as a
whole, if you put in thateffort, if they really have that
drive, you know, they can go onand do amazing things. I'm not
saying that I am going to bethat guy to go on and do amazing
things. I'm not there. But, youknow, there's a lot of people
(37:08):
with dyslexia, and are youreally going to tell me that
none of them will go on to doincredible things, and they
don't have to go out and inventthe latest and greatest
whatever, and change somebody'slife, but to the people around
them, they matter. They're worthit. To those around them, if you
just take a moment tounderstand, you know these they
matter in their community, tothose that love them, and it's
(37:32):
not your first choice to taketime, to take that extra time
and extra resources that theyneed. It is hard, it is
difficult,
Donell Pons (37:45):
but they matter.
They make a difference. Whatwould you tell your 10 year old
self? I
Unknown (37:50):
don't think I could have told them anything that
would have changed it, because,you know, the person I am today
was the effect of everyone elsearound me who was there every
single day. That's what reallychanged me. It was you. And it
was taking me down to the U of UReading Clinic. It was giving me
the intervention, the help thatI needed. I don't think any one
(38:14):
moment, I don't think a singlemoment of me going back and
saying something and giving it apiece of advice would have
changed that, because I wouldhave to be there. It would have
had to be from someone that wasthere every single day, in their
corner every single day. That'swhat changes them. It's not just
this one off moment. You have tobe there again and again and
again and again. So I don'tthink I could say anything, and
(38:36):
I don't think it would havechanged the outcome. It has to
be continued.
Donell Pons (38:40):
Yeah. See, look at you. What do you wish people
understood about dyslexia orabout being a creative person in
a system that doesn't alwaysmake room for difference? What
do you wish more peopleunderstood about that?
Unknown (38:57):
I feel like a lot of that just comes from the A it
feels a little bit like a lackof empath. Well, it is a lack of
empathy, but it's not, I don'tmean that to sound like mean,
these people don't have theexperience of what it's like to
have dyslexia. That's totallyokay. That's, you know, that's a
perfectly reasonable thing notto have an experience for if
(39:19):
you're non dyslexic, I'm notfaulting them for that. It's,
it's thinking that becausesomeone can't write, or because
someone can't read, that all ofthe other judgments that we make
around that it's like, well,they can't possibly be smart.
They can't possibly, you know,do these great things. I wish
(39:46):
we'd stop tying intelligence tojust reading and writing,
because that feels like thepinnacle of intelligence is what
you read and it's what youwrite, and it's how you write
and it's how you read, and just.
Abilities alone, it feels like adefinition issue with that. So
allowing Dyslexics to exist in aspace and be creative in a space
(40:06):
where it's not really toleratedor not appreciated, I should say
it comes from a definition ofintelligence, and we have to
decouple that from being able toread and write, because at a
young age, you understood thatmy intelligence was not in how
many words I read or what I wasreading or what I was writing,
(40:27):
but it was the stories I wasable to tell in the medium that
I was able to work in that wasavailable to me. It's the
medium. Doesn't necessarily makethe artist. It's that art in
whatever medium they choose,like you can have greatness
there again. I don't want to patmy own back, but what I was
saying wasn't great, or thestories I was telling was not
(40:49):
greatness. But there wassomething there. There was a
spark there. It was somethingand you were able to recognize
that. So in whatever medium thatsomeone works in, recognize the
talent, recognize the spark,whatever that is. I think that's
a really important thing to walkaway from. Don't write it off
because of the medium. It's thething that they're trying to do
(41:09):
in the medium that should beanalyzed through that lens.
Donell Pons (41:13):
So interesting because that's pretty deep.
Actually, what you're saying ispretty deep, but you can take it
on the surface of what you'resaying, totally understood. But
what you're really asking us todo, what you're what you're
saying and pleading with, issaying, hey, look, view
individuals, view people as morethan just the situation that
(41:34):
they're in. In essence, really,who are they at the heart? What
is it they're offering?
Unknown (41:42):
Yeah, and if that's what, if they're offering is
oral storytelling, then take itat the take it in context. It's
for the context of oralstorytelling. What is it doing?
Right? And then we can start toanalyze, you know, someone's
intelligence from that, not thatyou should, but that there's
(42:03):
more than just the medium. Themedium itself doesn't make the
greatness. The greatness comesfrom more than that. And again,
to add on to that, just a littlebit, if someone can't do
something, and if it's reallyhard not to do that thing, like
it's it's really hard to getthrough school and to never
write, you have to write at somepoint. So if someone doesn't
(42:26):
have the ability to write, theyprobably have a good reason to
do that. Right? If I go throughschool and someone can't speak,
they probably have a goodreason. My gut instinct isn't,
oh, they just don't likespeaking, it's they probably
have a really good reason fornot doing that when it's not
easy to get through class and tonever write something, it's not
(42:46):
easy to get through school andto have never read something,
those are not easy things to do.
Those are really, really, reallyhard things to do. Like to get
through that as a really roughexperience. So if someone has
those deficits, just assume, onface value, that they have a
really, really good reason forthose deficits, because it's not
at all easy, right? Lazy isbeing able to write but turning
(43:10):
in a half baked assignment everysingle and it's just kind of
whatever, and I not doing it atall. That is. It's insane. Yeah,
they have to have it. Yeah, theyhave to have a really good
reason for that. So don'timmediately assume because
someone can't read or can'twrite, that it comes from that
(43:31):
laziness. It's not easy to notread, to not write, it's not
easy to be illiterate. In amodern society. Is not an all
easy thing. It's not easyemotionally at all. So just if
there was anything that I wantthe audience to take away from
that, specifically the nondyslexic audience, is that it's
not easy when someone has such agreat deficit like that, it
(43:52):
isn't it is not an easy thing,and they have a good reason for
it.
Donell Pons (43:59):
Kate, you just that, just that alone
approaching so it shifts yourthinking around, instead of
looking at a situation like thatand saying, oh, imagine this
kid's making it hard for me yetagain, or they're making it
difficult. Instead shift it tosay how difficult it must be to
be in that person's shoes, beingthe one who's unable to give you
(44:22):
that written whatever to read,that whatever you've just asked
them to read. It's not easy tobe that person doing that right
now. Yeah, that's interesting.
Okay, because it
Unknown (44:31):
looks like it doesn't require much. Like, Oh, you
don't have to write theassignment. You're not gonna Oh,
that must be so easy for you,because it's difficult for me to
write. It's like, no, it's evenharder not to write. It's even
harder to go through everysingle parent teacher conference
meeting and have them talk aboutyou like that. It's not at all
easy. It's it's difficult indifferent ways, and it's in a
(44:54):
lot of ways, much, much harderthan just, you know, being able
to write but not. Liking it,yeah, but just that simple test,
you know, if I was this studentand if I wasn't doing this, how
hard would that be on me? Howdifficult, and more oftentimes
than not, the answer is really,really difficult. It would be
(45:14):
very, very hard on you as astudent
Donell Pons (45:17):
that's super insightful, just that right
there, and not just aboutreading and writing. You've got
me thinking about a lot ofthings where we make assumptions
about people who don't seem tobe doing the thing, and our
immediate thought is, oh,they're just being difficult or
whatever. But boy, that's a realthat's a real shift in thought
process, isn't it for us? Yeah,to think it's not easy to be
(45:39):
that person who a isn't able tomaybe physically lift that or do
that thing too? Superinteresting? Yeah. Okay, so you
always said you're the mostinsightful one. What did I say?
Thank you. You do try. Youdeliver too. That's the thing.
You deliver. Every time I haveYes, I have appreciated that you
(46:03):
granted me this time, because,you know, I've been after you
for a while, and just the otherday, I randomly asked, just on
the off chance, and I just threwit out there. Gosh, would you be
willing to have a conversationwith me? It's dyslexia Awareness
Month, and when you said, yes,what did I do? I jumped on it,
didn't
Unknown (46:22):
I? Yeah, you jumped on it. Very excited. Again, a fire
in your eye.
Donell Pons (46:27):
I've jumped right on that. Well, this has been
delightful. Bridge. Is thereanything else you'd like to say
you didn't get to touch onanything left unsaid? You said
some great things. By the way,when
Unknown (46:38):
I was a kid, I never really you guys would tell me
that you know, maybe you know,one day at the end of this
you'll forget what it's like tohave dyslexia. You won't even
know what it's like. And I neverbelieved that until you know you
live with this thing everysingle day, and it's a chip on
your shoulder every single day,and it's a problem every single
(47:01):
day, and it feels like when it'syour every single day, it'll
never leave, and that will beyour life, and that's the best
it's gonna ever get, and you'llbe at the same level forever.
And so when you guys would tellme that you know, one day you'll
forget about it, one day youwon't know what it's like to
(47:22):
have dyslexia or to, you know,have it as bad as you do, it
seemed like a lie, and Icouldn't believe it, and you
guys were right, becauseeventually you live with that
chip on your shoulder, and thenit gets a little lighter and A
little lighter and a littlelighter, until eventually you
(47:43):
don't know it's even there. Tilleventually your biggest problems
won't be dyslexia. You'll stillhave problems, they just won't
be dyslexia. And as far as I'mconcerned, those are good
problems to have, and eventuallyit does. Eventually, if you work
hard enough at it, you'll youwon't remember what it's like.
(48:08):
That's a really hard thing toconvince someone living it every
single day. But it can happen.
So don't just remember that itcan happen. You know, eventually
the biggest problem in your lifewon't be dyslexia, if you keep
working at it.
Donell Pons (48:28):
Wow, wow. And you are a testament to early and
heavy intervention, a realtestament to that. So I put that
plug out there too, as we'retrying to push legislation to
get in earlier and push harder.
What a story that is. Wow.
That's powerful. I've alwayssaid that being Bridgers mother
has forced me to rethinkeverything I thought I knew
(48:52):
about learning and aboutteaching, and even after all
these years, I'm still learningfrom this boy who once said, I'm
going to tell you something youdon't know. That is mostly true.
You're right, because whatyou've taught me is something
most people don't know, notreally. That brilliance doesn't
(49:14):
always look like we expect itto, and that different isn't
deficient, and that the kids wecall struggling readers may, in
fact, be telling stories we justdon't know how to hear yet. So
if today's episode resonatedwith you as a parent, an
educator or someone who learns alittle differently, I hope
(49:36):
you'll share it. Start aconversation, ask a question.
Tell a story, because someoneout there is waiting to feel
seen. Thanks for listening andthanks for talking to me.
Unknown (49:48):
Bridger, thank you. I had a great time.
Narrator (49:54):
Thanks for joining us today. Literacy talks comes to
you from Reading Horizons. Whereliteracy momentum begins, visit
reading horizons.com/literacy.
Talks to access episodes andresources to support your
journey in the science ofreading.
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