Near Death: Surviving 8 Days Alone in the Arctic

Paul Watkins set out alone into the Arctic wilderness.

No food. No shelter. No backup plan.

What started as an adventure became a near-death fight to survive.

Eight days. Frostbite. Starvation. Isolation.

Hallucinations so vivid he couldn’t tell what was real.

He saw trucks and workers that weren’t there.

He heard fighter jets that never came.

He believed a woman was following him the polar explorer “third man effect.”

👇 Here’s what’s inside:

• How a simple plan spiralled into an 8-day survival nightmare
• The terrifying hallucinations that almost pushed him over the edge
• The mental games of isolation and how he nearly gave up
• The brutal signs of hypothermia and frostbite he ignored
• The moment he thought he wouldn’t make it back alive

This one will leave you shaking your head at what the human body — and mind — can endure.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
One minute to get your breathingunder control, 10 minutes to get
out in one hour to get dry. If you fail any one of those,
you're dead. You must stay awake and you must
keep moving no matter what the cost.
It's a really old snowmobile trail and if you're on that
trail and a baby bag of sleep, they'll hit you and they'll kill
you guaranteed. We need to pick option AB or C&A

(00:22):
is leave my body there. B is drop it in a crevasse or C
is bring it home. First person to rescue you will
be you. You're on a frozen river, deep
snow, howling wind. That's when the wheels from the
hallucination point of view really started to fall off that
you get to the point where your brain goes, we've got to keep
him on his feet or he's going todie.
I believe 100% that there was a woman following me.

(00:43):
And then I go, Oh no, there's noone there.
When all of a sudden I just couldn't see.
I can't figure out what's up or down or left or I can't do
anything. Like I got so sleep deprived
that the brain went, OK, well, if you're not going to stop,
we'll just stop you. Like at some point we'll just.
Oh, welcome back. Boys, good to be here.
Thanks for having me back. Oh mate, I'm.
I'm stoked. No pressure.
Great storyteller. Here we go.
Alright. Well, he's featured, hasn't he,

(01:04):
in all of our favorite episodes we've done, you know, feet
coming up to our episodes now. Brucey.
When we asked Bruce anyone, he pops out and he saw he saw that
app. I did actually got, I got pretty
pumped up about it. I wanted to see your list.
I'm like, I just who did I thinkwas good?
And then you mentioned to me, I'm like, hang on, what 2?
Hundred 300 down and Paulie getsto get.

(01:24):
To mention because a few years ago too, it's not like it was
last week and you just remembered.
Me because you you've read the book as well.
And I know Bruce, he's read the book as well.
He left us with the book and it's just an incredible story
back then. And we know that, you know, from
then you've gone and challenged yourself even further.
So yeah, we're we're we're pumped to have your back, Paul,
man, we appreciate you coming back.

(01:45):
My. Pleasure.
Yeah, absolutely. So in the and if anyone wants to
go back and check out the other one, Paul Watkins couple of
years ago, a couple of seasons ago.
Yeah, yeah. So I think it was season 1 and,
and just to to box it all up without spoiling it, it's one of
the craziest endurance stories. And, and, and, and he won a race
that no Aussie had ever won and,and had only been completed, I

(02:09):
believe, if my memory is correct, by maybe six or seven
people ever. They.
'D only had they only had six winners in 10 years because most
of the time. People don't.
Finish because they don't finish.
Man. Sport, but no one finishes.
And pull and pull through. Hallucination through the
craziest adversity, man, Across terrains and stuff, man.
Like, I get scared going out to me laundry at night, you know

(02:32):
what I mean? So yeah, so.
So anyone like you said, PK, you've got to go back and
listen, but I'm pumped to hear what you've been talking.
For a smart guy, I've done some dumb stuff.
I think that's probably the way to put it.
So what? So so you finish that one, you
won it. What happened after that?
It's a really weird thing. You you get home and you won it.
You're pumped. And like, I went there not
expecting to win it. I went there just to see could I

(02:53):
do it and came away with a, you know, a win, which is completely
unexpected. But you get home and after a
while, that little voice in yourhead starts to go, well, did you
win it because you figured it out?
Like, did you win it because you're that good?
Or was it, you know, did you, Stephen Bradbury, a bit of that?
Like it was just a case of you were there at the right time and
the right day and a few other fellas fell over and you know,
you ended up on the podium and you don't necessarily believe

(03:15):
it, but there's just a bit of doubt in your head.
Like, did I really figure it out?
Now? I'm a scientist by background.
So I knew that the only way you answer that question is you run
an experiment. And the experiment has to be if
you're that good, if you want itbecause you're that good, you
should be able to go do another one and win it because that
proves that you want it because you figured it out.
Like you solved the equation. So you're like, damn, I've got

(03:35):
to go do another one. It's the only way I'm going to
know. So I signed up to do a 503
kilometre Arctic ultra, but in the European Arctic in in the
Laplandian Arctic, which is justnorthern Sweden.
This is slightly different because it's full Backcountry
wilderness. Like the last one, we're on the
Dempster Hwy. like the Ice Rd. Truckers Rd. on Peel River.

(03:56):
But this time it was full Backcountry wilderness.
So you are way out there. And I went, OK, let's let's go.
But with the mindset of we're going to train and prep and
execute as a guy who's going there to win.
And, and that's the mindset thatI went with, you know, getting
off the plane ready to go. Poor.
So the one before that was 660. Six, 14614.

(04:16):
Kilometres this one. 503. But felt a lot longer is.
It Oh my God, yeah, it was a toilet.
Like still self-sufficient. So he's still got a sled with
all your gear. Like there's no help, there's
you and what you brought. So I had about 25 kilos.
And a sled. Is it a map GPS like?
Here's the map the iPhone. Yeah, the iPhone.
Iphone's dead within about two seconds.
You pull it out like it's -30 like you take it out, the

(04:38):
battery's just gone. But like we had the the race
briefing, like the race directorsaid, look, you've got the GPS
device here and it's got an emergency button.
So if everything goes wrong, hitthe button.
But understand that the first person to rescue you will be
you. Like, it'll probably be a day
before we get to you. So whatever's going on, you need

(04:58):
to know how to figure that out because you'll be the person
rescuing you until we can get a snowmobile out to you in
wherever you are and affect whatever rescue we have to
affect. And they're not kidding.
Like it was legit. Some of those places you're out
in the middle of absolutely and utterly nowhere.
On your own. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like there was about 20 of us racing so but you spread out.

(05:20):
Yeah. And how, Yeah.
How often would you see someone,would you say, along the road,
along the? Road you generally wouldn't like
you might, you might see someoneat a checkpoint, you'd cross
paths and it depends if maybe you bunched up with someone.
But I would have spent 80% of that race just solo, just not
seeing a soul, which sounds great if you're an introvert.
What's going on up here? Starts to get very weird, like I

(05:42):
know what to expect, like when you're going to win.
You like bring it on after the last.
One. Oh yeah, I remember the last.
Time you, you know you were seeing staff it.
Was Oh yeah, And you know, that's coming.
You know that's all going to happen.
So I took off. I'm at the start line going.
We're here to win and I'm looking at everyone else going.
Yeah, fuck you. Yeah.
I'm wondering are they prepared for, for the amount of winning

(06:03):
like I'm about to give a master class in winning.
Are you guys ready? You had to get dropped.
Your last start winner there probably isn't too many others.
No, but isn't that no, but it's a case of I I was mentally like
that going. I hope they're ready to see me
just crush this. And within about half a day
they're they're like, you mean the little guy at the back Is
that is that the guy who's goingto drop the master class?

(06:23):
And it just like the wheels justfell off straight out of the
gate, like the what happened? The weather was just horrendous.
Like I I'd prepped like the the sled was moving great.
I'm in a really good headspace. I've got all the gear sorted
everything and you take off on like the previous race, you took
off and you're on a highway likeyou're on a road.
So it's, you know, you can get motor this time you're on a
frozen river, deep snow, howlingwind, and like you'd be kidding

(06:46):
me, like I'm, I'm slogging. It out and going so your feet
are sinking yeah you're getting.Nowhere, and you're just.
Last time you were on glass. Yeah, you decide.
Yeah, we're all excited. And this time you're like 10
minutes out of the start line. You're like.
Pulling bags of cement behind you.
What's going on here? So I was back up really early,
like going OK, we're we're officially mayor of struggle
town from like day dot and just started slogging it out.

(07:10):
And then you start getting in your own head.
I got to the first checkpoint like four or five hours behind
what I wanted to be like. Half the race is through.
They've already got their stuff,they've moved on.
And I'm like, this is not the picture that I had in my head.
You were there to win. Yeah, I'm like, well, well, this
isn't going to plan. Did you give yourself the pep
talk? Well, you need to suck it up.
Like let's get to work. Like it's it's time to get to

(07:31):
work. What do you think?
It was going to be easy. Like, you know what's coming.
So I got into it and knew that, OK, I know I can punch two days
with no sleep and then you've got to start getting the sleep
strategy in. The difficulty here was the last
race it was a case of going you could sleep wherever you wanted.
Like you just pull over to the side of the trail, put the bivvy
bag down in the snow and sleep. This race you couldn't do that

(07:53):
because the the race director said, look, it's a really old
snowmobile trail, so the chancesof someone coming through on it
is very low. But it's not 0.
And if you're on that trail and a BV bag asleep, they'll hit you
and they'll kill you guaranteed.So you cannot sleep on the
trail. You must get off and find.
Like a snowmobile. Yeah, snowmobile like.
Yeah, just just just a punter, just yeah, just.

(08:14):
Punters, just some dude out there hunting whatever out there
hunting moose or whatever, reindeer or whatever, like
they're going to be, and they'renot looking for us idiots.
Like, yeah, he's not expecting some dude to be asleep in his
sleeping bag at 2:00 in the morning.
So he's like, you've got to finda spot.
But the problem is there's not alot of spots because it's deep
snow. You can't blind able to
disappear. Or we spend a lot of time

(08:35):
crossing a lot of frozen lakes. Like you don't want to be
sleeping on a frozen lake mate. Because you fucking hate
something and you. Well, I said that to the start,
like we we crossed a lot of really big frozen lakes.
And I said to the race director at the start, like, you know,
seriously, how confident are we here about the thickness of the
ice? And he said, did you do the
mandatory course before you got here about what to do if you
have a full submersion event, like if you breakthrough the

(08:57):
ice? I said yeah, I did.
He said, do you remember your 110 one rule, which is the rule
of how to deal the one minute toget your breathing under
control, 10 minutes to get out in one hour to get dry, and if
you fail any one of those, you're dead.
I said yeah, I did the course. He said right, we'll be right.
So is that right? You've got 10 minutes to get
yourself out one. Minute to get your breathing
under control because you think you could jump into a cold

(09:17):
plunge and he'd be like, you do that and you've fallen
underwater, like that's not a great thing to do.
So you've got one minute to get your breathing under the
control, get your head right. That's not long.
The might seem like long, but tofall.
It's not long. Like don't forget you're wearing
full kit and you've got a sled attached to you, so you've got
to get all that sorted out in a harness.
You've got 10 minutes to get outbecause after that you lose

(09:40):
motor function like your, your arms are just not working.
You're not treading water or anything anymore because
nothing's functioning. Then if you're out, you've now
got an hour to get dry. So you've got to get somewhere
warm or create somewhere warm. Where's Yeah about to.
Say, where's that? Where's the warmth?
Roll in the snow, they'll actually pull some of the water
out of your clothing. And then it's a case of we had
mandatory kit. You got storm proof matches,

(10:01):
little hand saw. It's like get a fire going, get
yourself organized or find shelter right of whatever you
can. Like it doesn't matter what it
is, just make it happen. And he's starting a fire thing.
Like I sometimes I struggle to get the pot belly going at home.
You know what I mean? I just can't get this one going,
Jeff, you know, like. 19 fire loaders in, not.
Dry as a cheap, I've got fire lighters, I put Caro in there

(10:22):
the whole lot so. Go get the Terry can from the
shed well. We didn't have that in the sled,
I can tell you. So one of the things in Sweden
out in the Bush out there, like it's illegal to cut down
firewood unless it's a life threatening emergency.
And I had one night where I was going along the side of a frozen
lake and I was frozen to the core.
Like we were in deep strife. And I'm like, I've got a lot of
fire. Like this is I'm in trouble

(10:42):
here. So I'm like, mate, if they can
find me, they can see me. Like I'm chopping down some
brands. Happy to pay the.
I'm happy to pay the fight, but I got the fire going.
But the problem is it was -28 solike, if the fire is there,
you've almost got to have your hand on it because the heat
dissipates so fast. It's like there's nothing there.
So you literally got to hug the thing.
So I did that for half an hour and you're like, this is kind of

(11:05):
pointless. Like mentally you feel a bit
better. You eat something, You're like,
just keep moving. Like we're not, you know, we're
not getting anywhere here. So just keep moving.
So back to the sleep thing that that was a problem because you
couldn't go, oh, I'm going to have my strategy of mid morning,
mid afternoon and evening sleep of like 20 minute, 20 minute, 40
minute. It doesn't work if when you
meant to sleep, you can't find anywhere to sleep.

(11:25):
So it's nearly identifying the opportunity when that arises.
Yeah. All right.
I'll have to take you because I don't know if I'm it's like a
petrol station when you're driving out the back, right?
How far you're going to push the?
Caravan on the back? Go on, your reckon, we'll make
it. We're half, but we might as well
take it we'll. Take it.
We'll take. It what are the chances we can
do? Look, there were checkpoints
where and some of them, you could sleep in them and they had

(11:45):
these. Amazing.
How many days? Sorry, sorry, I've been thinking
the whole time. How many days were you planning
for this one to take because youknew you couldn't sleep for two
days? You get 10 days and I wanted to
get it done in seven. You wanted I.
Knew that if you could get it done.
You knew you couldn't sleep. You weren't going to sleep for
the 1st 2:00. And then just then, just then
had my plan of what my sleep strategy was last time.
But then of course, that strategy got bend straight out

(12:07):
of the gate because you're like,well, it's time to sleep.
Cool story. You can't sleep anywhere here.
You might not be able to sleep for another 10 hours.
Like you must stay, stay awake and you must keep moving no
matter what the cost. So there were a few checkpoints
we could get some sleep like they had.
And they had these amazing things out in the middle of the
Laplandian Arctic. They have these things called
shelter cabins, and they're these old Hunter's huts in the

(12:29):
middle of the wilderness. And the government keep them
kind of semi functioning. So you just find this really old
log Hut in the middle of nowhere, and you go like, if
it's -20 outside, it's -20 inside, but you're out of the
wind. And they typically would have a
table, a chair, a bench that youcould lie on and sleep, and a
pot belly in the corner with maybe some wood.

(12:51):
So you could light a fire if you've got matches.
And if there was any wood left, you could light something and
get some warmth. And they're just old Hunter's
cabins, just out in the middle of nowhere.
And just random, how many times did you run into one of them?
Oh. I reckon I crossed about four or
five of them and two of them, like I've been hanging out for
them. Like I knew on the GPS, there's
one there. We just got to get there, just
get there, just get there like you can get in.
It's not warmer, but just psychological.

(13:13):
I'm out of the wind and you probably won't get a fire going,
but you can lie your sleeping bag on a bench, not on the ice.
So just something as simple as that, to put a little bit of
warmth back in and just kind of get you under control a little
bit mentally. Yeah, just to get the head.
Going so talk, so talk to us. We we're we're we're two days in
you you're thinking, fuck, this isn't good.
We got to the first checkpoint. You're behind the little fellas

(13:36):
up the back. What are we doing?
How are you thinking? What's the plan and, and, and
what transpires from there? Because we know.
Yeah, well, the race we. Know last time we know.
We know Peka, you aren't going to give up.
No. So the race comes in two laps.
You do 185 K lap and then you doa 315.
So I did the 185K. I'm coming into the 185K

(13:57):
checkpoint, which was actually atown, and it was really good.
I was coming into that town at night and I knew I was
exhausted, but it's just coming into the town.
I was watching and they had thishuge truck.
Have you ever seen the move the wind turbine arms?
Have you ever seen a truck do that?
They're like these massive trucks and I'm watching this.
These people are loading up these guys in high vis.
This is really weird. It's 1:00 in the morning, why

(14:18):
would you do that? So I'm watching all these guys
like they're not even looking atme like I'm this guy in a sled.
Wouldn't I look weird? I'm walking past.
This is bizarre. Get into the checkpoint, walk up
to the medic because the medics have to check you over and see,
right? I'm like, do you see the guys in
the high vis doing the wind turbine thing out there?
And he's like, come here and he pulls over the curtains.
There's no one, there's nothing out.

(14:39):
Like I'd hallucinated this wholething for like 2 hours as I'm
walking into this town going what's that?
Oh, it's a big truck. Oh, it's got a wind turbine arm.
Oh, look at them loading up. Like there's no one there.
There's nothing. It's all in my head.
Like none of it was real. And you get in there, you're
like, oh, OK, we might be in a bit of trouble.
Wonder why you come up with that?
The wind turbines, they're on the way to Warnambool.
I have no idea. Probably.
Oh, it depends who you asked them.

(15:01):
We're probably protesting about it.
I've got no idea. There's a as you're going to
like. Portland I've got through ferry
or they're asking. You have no idea, but by the
time he's saying it back to you,you're you're back.
You've cleared enough. You've.
Cleared enough, got it. And then you're going, Yeah.
Yeah, so I said to the medic, I'm like, look, I might need to
have a bit of a nap here. We led to sleep here.
And he's like, yeah, just go down the hallway.

(15:22):
There's a room at the end of this hallway and you can have a
nap. That's got to be.
Cheating. Oh, this is fantastic.
So I walked down the end of the hallway, open the door.
There's a small bed in the room and there was one of the other
athletes in there, Max, like, oh, sorry, he's asleep.
Shut the door. Go back to the medic.
I'm like, I'm really tired. Like I must have mucked up.
Is it? Did I go to the right room?
He's like, yeah, if you want to sleep, go spoon, Max.

(15:42):
Like, we don't care. Look, that's the room.
If you want to sleep, go in there.
So you go in and cuddle up. Sorry, Max, you like just cuddle
up and skip out for two hours. The alarm goes off, wake up.
Max was gone. Also, Max headed off before.
You yeah, but so we're at the 185K mark and I didn't know this
at the time, but I do know now. So the 185K mark, I was

(16:02):
completely busted and like, OK, you need to maybe review the
winning thing. Like maybe this is the universe
going. Maybe it's did Brad breed a bit
like maybe we've just got to survive the.
Doubt starts to creep. In, well, Max, maybe you did get
lucky, but then, well, that's it.
But then I'm like Max is. Maybe I'm not who I thought.
I was maybe you're not top dog, my friend, but Max, the guy had
been there. He'd gone snow blind in one eye.

(16:24):
So he'd already was getting likemedic checked out Stefan, a
German guy who was was out in front.
He'd had he'd had to stop and get all the blood drained out
all these blisters in his feet. We're at 185, another 350 than
to go and. Paul, sorry.
Halfway dude at his. Checkpoint where would you be in
the 20? I would have said I was mid to
bottom third, like somewhere there, like maybe, you know,

(16:46):
somewhere in there about half the races in front of me pretty.
So I'm moving. Well, they're moving fast.
And I'd thrown everything bar the kitchen sink at or probably
including the kitchen sink at itand was just like, you know, mid
pack guy maybe. So you're not working.
No. So you're like, OK, what are you
going to do? All right, well, you can stop
trying to be a hero. How about you let that go?
What do you need to do? OK, well, I need to figure out
what's the, what's the simplest and easiest thing I can do?

(17:08):
Now you need to eat, you need tohydrate, and you need to move.
So I'm like, OK, let's do that. And then my brain, my brain's
going, you got to quit. You got to quit.
You got to quit like you're an idiot.
This is quit, quit, quit, quit, quit.
So I said to myself, OK, I'll doa deal.
We'll go one more checkpoint andyou can quit there, but you have
to behave between now and then as if you won't quit.

(17:30):
So you have to execute like you're not quitting.
You have to drink and eat and doall the things because if you
go, I'm going to quit at the next checkpoint.
You don't care. It doesn't matter if you don't
eat or you don't hydrate properly or you skip a few
things, doesn't it? Because you're going to quit
like, OK, you can quit at the next one, but you've got to
behave like someone who doesn't.And I got to the next
checkpoint, had a little Kip there and the body went, there's

(17:51):
a bit more if you want it like there's, there's a little bit
more like we don't have to quit here.
OK, But because I executed as someone who wouldn't quit,
you're still in good enough shape.
So you know, right? OK, now stay in the game.
Your job is just to stay in the game.
So you start staying in the game.
But that's when the wheels, fromthe hallucination point of view
really started to fall off. And something happened to me.

(18:14):
And I didn't understand it at the time.
And I came home and told my wife.
I said, you're not going to believe what happened to me.
And I told her. And about a year later, she sent
me an article and said, this is what happened to you.
Like I figured out what happenedto you.
Like it was just bizarre. So I would got to this point
where I believed 100% that therewas a woman following me.
Like I couldn't see her and I knew she wasn't like she was

(18:35):
there to help me. Like I wasn't scared.
I'm like, there's someone behindme.
Like, to the point where I wouldstop to eat a freeze dried meal
and I'd be halfway through it and I'd turn around and
apologize. I'm sorry I haven't offered you
any. Do you want some food?
And then I'd go, Oh, no, there'sno one there.
And like, I would, I would lie down the beefy bag and have a
sleep and I'd wake up 20 minuteslater and go, you didn't make

(18:55):
sure she's OK? Like, is she all right?
Like, oh, no, there's no one there.
I just, I knew I wasn't scared. I just knew there was someone
behind me and it was a woman andshe was there to help me.
OK, So, and this went on for days on absolutely for days.
And I came home and told my wifeAnyway, she sent me this article
about a year later. And she said, this is what
happened to you. And it's called the third man
effect. And Arctic explorers like, you

(19:17):
know, polar adventurers used to get it.
So what happens is you get to a point in your brain goes, OK, if
this guy stops, we're going to die.
Like we're, we're we're that deep in trouble here that we
have to pull out all the emergency stops.
So your brain creates a third person and it convinces you,
hey, there's someone here and they're here to help.

(19:39):
They're here to take care of you.
But you need to keep going. But there's help here.
And they're going to they're going to help you and keep an
eye on you and make sure that you're OK.
But you mustn't stop. So you feel like, oh, there's
someone here has helped, we're going to be OK.
Trick yourself so you convince yourself that this helps.
You don't stop because your brains like, if he stops, we're

(19:59):
done. So you've.
Got it. It's a survival.
It's a survive. It's a last ditch survival.
What was it called again? The third man effect, Third man,
yeah, See, it's a real thing. Like polar explorers when
they're just crossing, you know,Antarctic or something like
that. You get to the point where your
brain goes, we've got to keep him on his feet or he's going to
die, so. Are you over these days?
Like, are you in and out of sortof realizing that this isn't

(20:21):
real? Yeah.
And do you know what I mean? Like, you're sort of floating in
and out of that. Like she's not actually there.
Oh, actually, are you thirsty? Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
You know what I mean. I've it's weak.
I've got memories that I can't verify if they're real.
Like I remember things that I don't know if they're real.
So 2 examples. One is at one point, you know,
I've been alone hiking along middle of the day and I could

(20:42):
hear a noise coming and I heard it got louder and louder and
louder. And then I saw two fighter jets
go overhead. I'm like that is.
Awesome. OK, I'm thinking that's not real
now. But then this is where my brain
goes and my brain goes, wow, awesome fighter jets.
I'm like, OK, I'm in Sweden and and they just said that they
were doing like military exercises because Russia's crazy
blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, OK, logically that

(21:04):
would be real. But I also now watched Top Gun
2-3 times on the flight over to get here, so there's also a fair
chance that it's not real. I'm not real, I have no idea.
Maybe they're real, maybe they weren't.
Bizarre, isn't it? Next day, similar kind of mid
afternoon, I'm through a forest,middle of nowhere and I'm
looking out and I see this old man like amongst the trees and

(21:26):
I'm like, oh here we go. And he's got a table, like a
card table. And I'm getting close to going,
is he real or not? And then he's got a thermos of
hot tea and coffee and biscuits.I'm like, OK, you've lost it.
This is officially You've lost it when I get there and this old
bloke goes, I've been watching you on the tracker because there
was a live tracker on the web and he said I knew you would be
here. I brought you tea and biscuits,

(21:48):
very cold. It's very cold last night.
And I'm like, no shit. I'm like, OK.
And you're like you get a cup oftea, like it feels real like.
And you just, you drink it and you eat the biscuits and I'm
like, I don't know. I got to the next checkpoint and
a guy came in behind me and the first thing, he walked straight
up to me. Did you see the old man in the
forest? Like, yeah, did you see the old

(22:08):
man in the forest? He's like, it was real.
Like he was real. But you don't know until someone
verifies and says, did you see him?
Yeah. Did you see him?
Yeah. OK.
He was real. He was real.
And it was like, I'm going to goout and.
He's some old Swedish dude. He lived out in the middle of
nowhere. And he literally did.
And he came out with a card table with the hot coffee and
biscuits. But until someone tells you that
it's real, you just got that. Did that, did that happen?

(22:30):
What was that? Did that really happen?
Was that real? And then you verified you like
OHK, OK? So what checkpoint and where?
Where are we at now? Where?
How many days? Left, left the 185 going OK,
let's let's drop the hero stuff like just mate, just survive.
Like no one cares. Like no one.
You're the only person that means anything to if you win or
not. Like no one gives a shit.
That's it. Most people go, you're a

(22:52):
lunatic. Like you did it, that's insane.
And you're like, I did it and I didn't win, dude, no one cares.
Like just drop all that go and have the experience because
you're fortunate enough to be able to do it.
So go do that and appreciate that.
So you kind of take all that weight off.
Didn't get any better. Like it still was freaking
horrendous. Like you're still starving,
you're still frozen, things are still going wrong.

(23:15):
And I got to this, probably thissecond or third last checkpoint.
So you've still got about 150 KSto go.
And I was in there with Stefan, who was a German competitor and
was just the two of us sitting there and I was beat.
Like we were both beat. We're both looking at each other
like what do we do? OK, how far do we push this?
And the minute came over and satnext to us and he said, you 2

(23:36):
blokes are doing this the right way.
Like, yeah, OK. What's it doesn't feel like the
right way, mate. Like what?
What are we doing that's right here?
And he said, well, last year thetwo guys are out in front.
We had to pull them apart like they were coming to blows.
They were trying to out game each other, like sneak out of
the check. It's ridiculous.
She said you 2 guys are doing itthe right way.
And I'm like, what do you mean the two blokes out in front?

(23:59):
He's like, he said you guys are out in front.
He said it's been a war of attrition, mate.
Like people have been dropping like flies.
Like it's hard because it's hard.
Like you guys have just chewed your way through it and you 2
are out in front. And so we've Stefan and I have
gone from like, Oh my God, we'renearly dead.
We kind of look at each other like let's fucking go.

(24:19):
It's on champ. Like and like I talk to people
about this. Like the guy didn't give me 3
cans of Red Bull. Like he didn't give me a shot of
adrenaline. He just gave me a piece of
information. You guys are out in front
changed and you take that information and you tell
yourself a different story. I was telling myself a story
that I'm the guy who's beat dragging his ass through this.
We're just going to survive. And then someone says you guys

(24:41):
are crushing it. Oh hang on, the guy that's
crushing it all of a sudden you tell yourself a different story
and your mindset. Changes.
Is that, is that not just mindset, Is that the physical
change as well? You know, I mean, everything
changes into you start pushing through the snow a bit.
Well, now it's like, oh, it's onlike Donkey Kong.
Like you said, 'cause Red Bull would give you a physical.
Yeah, definitely. You know what I mean?

(25:01):
It proves it's all in your head,but the head.
The head's probably all. Head yeah, exactly.
But someone's feeding the information makes you think
you're you're winning when you thought you were losing.
Yeah. And all of a sudden when you
couldn't pull the the. Sled.
Another step, another step. Now, sled.
'S just fucking slide. Yeah, so we left easy.
We left that checkpoint. Just do that, let's go.

(25:23):
And you've told yourself a different story.
So all of a sudden the toolkit feels differently.
So we left that checkpoint going, oh, I guess we're going
to war for the next couple of days.
And we literally did with the next two days.
We just went hammer and Tong about a. 100 left, was it?
I think we had about 125 somewhere there left.
So just back and forth, back andforth, back and forth, but in a

(25:45):
really fun way like it. Was been there before.
As well. I've done that before.
Been there before, but. It was a different experience, I
think, because I'd gone through the hell of going, oh, you came
here to win, That's not going tohappen.
You'd taken a lot of that burdenoff that mental burden, so you
kind of gave yourself the grace to enjoy a little bit so I
could. Feel like, Paul, I feel like
when you said that when you won,when you're last on here, I feel

(26:06):
like you gave away, you know, you just said, you know what, I
just need to finish. And then when you got rid of all
that sort of pressure and expectation on yourself, and
then suddenly it's like, oh, we're going all right here.
You know, like I feel like you did that in the in the wind
before that. I think so because you didn't
have those expectations and thenyou put the expectations on
yourself, you you build up this story of who you think people

(26:26):
expect you to be. So then you've got to kind of
thread that needle of going, areyou here trying to do you doing
you or are you here trying to dowho I think PK thinks I should
be. Yeah, which is?
Probably a heavier load. Yeah, that'd be right.
Yeah. And it's a bullshit load.
Like it's, you've made that story up in your head.
Yeah. Most people are just excited
that you're going and doing the stuff versus going, oh, I'm

(26:48):
running around my head thinking that people think I should win.
People generally don't think about you much at all.
Like they're busy with their ownlives and their own stuff.
You know, they're not too worried about that.
So it was a different mindset and and a good example of, of
how we try to then tackle that is first and 2nd.
At the start, the race director said any piece of food you have,
you must write your race bib number on it with a pen.

(27:10):
Because he said if I find one piece of rubbish, I know it's
you because your numbers on it. So if I find one piece, you get
a warning, 2 pieces, you're out,you're disqualified because we
want to, you know, treat the wilderness appropriately.
Stefan was terrible, the guy, hekept dropping rubbish.
So I'd pick it up because like, if we're going to fight it out,
we want to do, I don't want you to get disqualified on a
technicality. So I picked up his rubbish,

(27:30):
caught up to him. Mate, don't drop your rubbish.
All right? We kind of back and forth.
He got out in front again, more rubbish picked up.
I could need to check my mate. Come on, stop dropping your
rubbish. We would.
Have had him disqualify by now. Yeah, I know.
Anyway, so then next time I caught up to him, he said, he
said, did you get my rubbish? But what he does, he started, he
realized what I was doing for him.

(27:51):
He realized he'd mucked up. So he start, he stopped dropping
rubbish, but he started droppingfull chocolate bars, knowing
that I'd pick it up as a thank you.
He was just leaving these full chocolate bars along the way.
So I'll be telling. Oh, chocolate bar fantastic.
This is great. So we had a good back and forth
kind of banner camaraderie, knowing that we're both just
going for it. But you know, it is what it is

(28:11):
and we're out here doing our thing and that's fine.
And some of the time we got the chat together and you know,
you're both dads, man. He's from Germany, I'm from
Australia. Like he.
Just tell me your background, what's your story?
What do you do? You got a bit of time to kill
while we're just walking. Let him know, mate.
Just going for back-to-back here, yeah.
You look tired mate, you should probably have a rest.
I take it easy fella, but. This is my strongest.
Leg And this one's only 518. I should.

(28:32):
Point out I just. Wanted the six three, the the
6:33. The only problem is he was like
6-4 and he's got legs that go upto here on me and he'd just be
strolling along and I'm like thelike the donkey and Shrek just
trying to keep up with this bloke.
So in the end, he just, he just,he just started to stretch away
and stretch away and stretch away.
And we got to the last night. So he was in front and I knew I

(28:54):
wouldn't catch him. And Max was behind me.
He was the guy who'd gone snow blind Illinois, but he was fast
and he was just motoring up. So I'm like, OK, I've got to get
the seesaw right here of I'm notgoing to catch him, but I can't
have him catch me. I've got a stick in the middle
and that was the point where I started to lose vision.
Like I'd got so sleep deprived that the brain went OK, well if

(29:16):
you're not going to stop, we'll just stop you.
Like at some point we'll just turn you off.
And I'd just be trotting along and all of a sudden I just
couldn't see. It is I can't figure out what's
up or down or left or I can't doanything.
So what I'd do is I figured out when it happens, you'd stop,
pull your iPhone out. I put a 7 minute timer on it,
shoved it behind my neck so it'suncomfortable.

(29:38):
Undo your harness, take a few steps back and you'd hit your
sled. Lie back on your sled and go to
sleep and your alarm would go off 7 minutes later and you'd
wake up and I could see. Cool, get up, harness back on,
walk again. You get about 90 minutes but I
can't see. I can't see anything right.
Stop phone, harness, step back, lie on your sled. 7 minutes,

(29:59):
wake up, vision comes back. I'll get about 90 minutes of
vision before I can't see again.And I just did that for 12 hours
straight. Just 7 minute nap, get up 90
minutes, damn it, can't see 7 minute nap.
Another round half and just keepdoing that until the sun comes
up and then your body goes all right, the sun's up.
We'll give you a little bit. And that was that was the last

(30:21):
night. I mean, it's just kind of seesaw
that whole thing until I got to the and.
How how close did he get the thethe maxi boy with his one eye?
Well, this is you love this. So Stefan won.
He got in mid morning, I got in early.
This is day 8. So he got far.
Off Yeah, he got in first. He kind of got in like I think
it was like 9 or 10, maybe 10:00-ish.

(30:43):
Day 8, AMI got in about one or two PM.
Snowstorm hit that afternoon. Stefan and I are sitting in the
hotel restaurant having a burgerand fries going.
Wouldn't want to be out there now.
Snowstorm came in, so Max, he was still out there and he got
kind of lost off the trail. And it's very easy.
The trail's hard to see as it isand if you get like half a metre

(31:06):
off the trail you'll knee deep snow straight away and if you
get any further than that, you've straight up.
So he'd wandered off and basically got almost neck deep
in snow, had tried to dig himself out, couldn't get out,
hands are going numb, snowstorm set in and he's like, he's
literally close to the finish line.
I don't think he knew how close he was.

(31:26):
So he hit the emergency button. Stop it.
But celebrity get. Me here he didn't.
But so the snowmobiles come out and they're legitimately.
We're not fucking bringing you back.
Brother, the medics walked up and went.
If we get you out of there and drive you in, you're going to
hate yourself because you're that close.
Figure it out and just. Left.

(31:48):
How close would he have been? He had hours to go but in case
like you've. Already hours after 8 days.
Yeah, like you've done 8 days and you're with hours.
So he he managed to get himself out and get himself and I saw
him come in. When he crossed the finish line,
he looked like death like. His eyes come back.
His eyes. Yeah, he wasn't too bad.
He was alright, like. Is there ever any risk of
permanent damage from this cold to any organs?

(32:11):
Yeah, any part of your body. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that's one of the things that.
When you're doing that, your body's telling sorry to cut you
off. Yeah, when you're doing 7 minute
sleeps 90 minutes, just so you can see, Yeah, your reverse.
Might be a sign. Well, yeah, Yeah.
Do you know what I mean? It feels like you're kind of
hacking the human body. Yeah.
And squeezing more out of it than you should.
Yeah. Were you not scared or were you

(32:31):
not worried thinking about what this is?
You know, you get home, you're back in beautiful warrnable and
you have to have 10 minute naps every couple.
Every because. You can't say.
It doesn't work well. This is one of the things I got
back and it was really weird. As soon as I got back, I would I
would meet up with people and mybrain would give me a first name
or a surname, but not both. The people that I knew really,

(32:52):
really well, like I'd see them and I'd be like, I'd either get
Peter or Kelly, but I can't get Peter Kelly.
Like I don't get, I'm like, I just struggled to remember,
like, you know, like maybe it's just sleep deprivation, but it
hung around for quite a while. I'm like, there's just, I think
you might have Swiss cheesed your brain a little bit there
with the sleep deprivation. So you can get away with it for
a period of time, but sooner or later the bill comes due.

(33:15):
So you kind of go, you can only push the envelope that hard for
so long before you're like, well, sooner or later you're
going to do some damage or you, you got to pay the due.
So I'd be fairly hesitant now doing another race where I've
got to push to that level of sleep deprivation because you
want to be at the thin end of the wedge, because you want to
be right at the front, because. But you said that last time, and

(33:36):
here we are. At last, I don't bring that.
Up. I remember last time you saying
that, that you didn't. I might not be completely
accurate here, but it didn't sound like you were going to go
again. The wife wasn't that keen as
well, and you've kind of appreciated the danger that
you'd sort of put yourself through on the Arctic 6/6.

(33:56):
Yeah, there is that, but you getthat voice in your head going.
Yeah, yeah, it just sometimes you're.
Different to your what what makes because you are just you
know you say you're at the supermarket mate like like I'm
not being funny. You know what I mean?
You don't like you could pull a fucking sled, dude, and I'm and
I don't need that, you know whatI mean?
Well, let's be. Honest.
No, I don't get it. Yeah.
Yeah, like for real. So what makes you different,
Paul? What?
What is it? Because it's not physical,

(34:18):
because I'm sitting here. You're not sitting there busting
out with, you know, what musclesthat look like they can RIP this
sled through, you know, a meter of sludging snow.
Yeah. So what, what, what, what makes
you different, mate? What, what, what, what, what's
what is it? It's can't.
It can't just be a simple mindset thing.
Why is Paul Watkins? I think it can be a mindset
himself. I think.
I mean, there are two reasons. The same reason I got into

(34:39):
mountaineering and that a lot ofit was about partly you want to
have the that experience in thatplace and it's a great levelling
field. You go to mountains or whatever,
They don't care about your business card or how much you
earn where on the org chart. They don't give a shit about any
of that. They just like did you do the
work to have the right to even attempt this to get here to get
to the start line? So I love the work like I enjoy
the. Process through that then what

(35:00):
what's what, what when you're inpeak training?
So OK, this is a good question. So you know you when you've got
a fighter, they have their fightcamp normally a 12 week fight
camp going into a fight would bea standard fight camp.
What would you say was the the, the, the lead in for this?
And when you were in peak training, what was what was your
weekly routine? How many times a day you train

(35:21):
and what kind of training you doing?
You sitting in the freezer out the back?
What? Are you doing it?
I look at it, it's like because I'm a nerd, I look at it like an
equation to solve. What do I need to do to get the
right answer? And the right answer is you want
to win or you want to finish. OK, so how do you need to break
that down? So the start of is a lot of
logistics, how fast you need to be to get the job done.
So you look at all the people who have done it, how quick were

(35:41):
they? The fastest guy, the slowest
guy, the middle, all those kind of things.
OK, now I know the numbers. You need to be in that range of
that pace with that load for that many hours.
So you need to aim to be in thatpocket.
So then you can build the training program around that.
So for me, the training program,because I'm an ultra runner
anyway, a lot of it is you've just got to have the engine.
But there's no good having a, you know, a massive Chevy

(36:03):
engine. You put it in the Prius because
the things going to blow apart. So you got to have the chassis
as well. So you got to balance both those
things. So I still ran.
I dragged A sled or a tire a lotand I would over.
Would you do that down in one? What's that?
And the rail trailer and the Bush, yeah, just there's,
there's great. Go on and go.
Just go. The cows don't care like.
Tie it around your waist. I didn't have a run.

(36:24):
I'd have a harness with a tire just drag a tire around.
Outrageous or standard is get a new tire and drag it until you
shred it to pieces like that would.
That was my standard of knowing that I'm ready.
That would however long it took you to drag that thing until you
actually shredded it. When I'm.
Training. Raising.
Only one tire. It doesn't.
It doesn't be a course. I don't know.
It doesn't be a Pirelli like youfind an old farm tire.

(36:46):
You're out there in opposite temperatures training though,
right? Because you're out there in the
heat. To a degree, but a lot of
because I've spent a lot of timein cold weather, I know how to
operate in cold weather. So it's different.
Heat training is worth it. If you're going somewhere hot,
we should discuss that in a minute.
But if you want to go into cold,it's more about understanding
how to operate your gear in thatenvironment.

(37:08):
Like can you operate, you know, your food, your water, your
beefy bag with gloves on becauseyou might not be able to take
your gloves off. So do you know how to do that?
You had to do it quickly. Do you know what the signs of
hypothermia are? Do you know what to do if things
are starting to go wrong? Like the body does some weird
things as hypothermia starts to set in?
So you need to know what's coming, what's a warning sign,

(37:28):
how to deal with it? So I'm not, I wasn't really
worried about the cold weather stuff.
Like I've done enough cold. It was more the pace, right?
Like if I was dragging A sled, Iknew the sled would weigh 25 on
race day, so I put 50 in it for training.
So that when you get to race day, yeah.
Because yeah, that 25 through the snow is going to be 50
anyway. Right, Well, just more.
It's just mentally, if they turnup and go, oh, we've changed the

(37:49):
mandatory gear and you've got tocarry an extra 2 kilos of food
or three kilos of water, you're like no deal, cool, that's fine,
whatever, not a problem. Versus you panic because you
only trained with 25 and I only wanted 25 and now you got 30.
So you kind of over punched thatto make sure you're good.
And then I would train six days a week.
Twice a day, Once a day, no. Once it maybe a double if there

(38:10):
every now and then. Like you do a do a lot of night
work just to get used to being dark and alone.
And it's all what like running? Generally running.
Cardio is what I was. Looking for cardio.
Yeah, so a lot of cardio. So generally you'd get cardio
in. So you might do a couple of easy
days, some Sprint work, some hill work, some long drags of
stuff, and you'd hit some strength maybe twice a week.
And not like you're trying to bean elite lift or anything of the

(38:32):
sort. What about long distance, right?
How do you bloody prepare for 510 KS?
Like what? What kind of when you go on your
your long run for the week? Yeah.
What does that look like? Longest runs I'd do some 100K
races. So you put some you'd pepper
some races in along the way. I would do 50K training runs not
too often, but I could do a 50K with the sled.
Wouldn't with a tire because 50Kwith the sled is okay, 50K with

(38:55):
the tires not you don't do that because the tires so much
friction. It's you'd probably only go, I'd
like go 90 minutes, 2 hours witha tire and that's enough.
And then, yeah, you'd sprinkle acouple of races in there just to
get your mindset in competing and get the body, get the
mileage in and just you've got to get the work in.
But you got to keep, you can't break the thing before you get
to the start line because you'vegot to turn up in shape that's

(39:15):
good enough to get the job done.So you kind of got to thread
that needle fairly carefully. Paul, what's the go with,
because you know, my kids play sport, you got to sign these
waivers and the insurance and all that sort of stuff like is
that, you know, do they explain to you the possibility of death
on something like this? And you obviously say, well, you
know, obviously there's no liability with the right.
Sign Please sign here. Because like, that's what I'm

(39:38):
thinking. I guess I had an advantage in
that in that because I've done alot of really high level
mountaineering previously like I'd had the discussion with my
wife many years before going, oh, I'm going to go climb this
and we need to sign this document.
We need to pick option AB or C&Ais leave my body there.
B is drop it in a crevasse or C is bring it home and here's the

(39:58):
appropriate bills for AB or C. So we're kind of.
You understand that there is a level of risk and you can't make
dumb choices. Like you have to be smart about
what you're doing out there. And a lot of these races, like
these Arctic races, they don't have a prerequisite of like, oh,
you must have done this, that orthe other.
Yeah, yeah, this is a serious endeavour and you should be
serious to turn up here and you should have done the work.

(40:19):
And if you haven't, that's on you.
We'll provide all care that we can with a medic crew and
survival, blah, blah, blah. But you hit the button, it's you
for maybe a day or so till we can get to you.
So you need to be equipped and ready to deal with that.
Sign here, please. And you assume that the lawyers
have done the 93 pages of stuff and you're never going to crack
it. See.
I mean, you didn't go there so you can get him on a

(40:40):
technicality. Like you went there to get the
job done. So yeah, get to work, of course.
Would you say, would you say thesuffering is a little bit
addictive as well, Paul? Is there any kind of like you
get home and you're like yearning to get back out there
and do you know what I mean? I would imagine it there'd be
some kind of. It could be really dangerous and
I, and I reckon I suffered from this in the last kind of 12

(41:02):
months, 18 months. It gets tricky when it's hard to
enjoy stuff, enjoy at a high level outcomes when you feel
like was an obligation. Like I was doing 100K races last
year and I'd watch people cross the finish line.
They're related like it's they've done the hardest thing
they've ever done and they're pumped and they should be like
that's a massive achievement andI'd cross it and go.

(41:23):
You should be slow and then you can't go.
That's. Wild.
But you do that and you go. That.
It can't be healthy to do all the time like you.
You've got to be able to enjoy that.
Like I always used to say, the race is the celebration, the
work you did to get there. Like you should, it should be
the celebration. The fact that you spent 12
months busting your ass and now you're here and you ran the 100

(41:44):
KS. Like you should be proud of that
and you should celebrate that. But it can become a really deep
hole if you start going. So you weren't good enough for
you. Like I've lost that ability to
celebrate. So I I had to purposely
backpedal some races last year. Like I've signed up for 100 mile
up in the Grampians late last year and getting up close to the
race, I'm like, you know what's going to happen?

(42:04):
You're going to go there, this is going to be a disaster
because your head's not right, your body's not right, and this
what are you doing? Like what?
You need to rethink this. So I gave myself a hard talk and
I just scarred back and said, dothe 50K.
Like there's nothing wrong with that and actually enjoy it.
Like just be present and be thankful and just go do it.
And I did that and actually really enjoyed it.

(42:25):
And that helped me kind of resetand reframe the it's okay to not
beat yourself up every day. It's okay to actually have a run
and enjoy it. And it's okay to go for a race
to go, oh, give a shit what timeI get like, I'm just going to go
and go, How lucky are you that you can go do this?
Like how fortunate I so maybe a bit of gratitude.
It just it takes the pressure off.
And once I got through that, nowI'm back in the mindset of going

(42:47):
right now, we can start looking for things to tackle and
approach because we're in a muchbetter mental position than we
were before. Are you eyeing anything off,
would you say Paul and, and I did have a question, Was there,
is there something that you get up and do every day that keeps
you sharp? There's something that Paul
Watkins does that's non negotiable, that you sort of
wake up and yeah, do you know what I mean?

(43:09):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
You seem like the kind of, Yeah,you seem like the kind of like
you've got, like you said, you've got formulas.
You're a formula guy. It's really.
Important because people think to be like you've got to get up
at 4:30, you have to get up at 4:30, run your marathon, have
your car smoothie and be sad andeat your lettuce leaf and stuff.
Like, I don't, I don't cold plunge, I don't meditate, I
don't journal, I don't get up at4:30, but I still get all the

(43:30):
stuff done. It's okay.
Just debunk them. All just debunk them all.
Can you list them off again while?
So I don't cold plunge, I don't journal, I don't meditate, I
don't get up at 4:30, right? And you don't have to.
But you can still be elite and do none of those things.
Now, I'm not saying that 'cause they don't work, they all work,
but there's a difference betweendoing a thing and understanding

(43:51):
why you do it. Why do you cold plunge?
Well, people cold plunge becausethey want to do a hard thing.
They get a big dopamine rush from the cold water effect, all
those kind of things. They work.
Yeah, absolutely. Why don't I cold plunge?
Well, I do hard things anyway. I've done my time in the cold,
thanks. And my dopamine and testosterone
are great, so I don't need to doit.
So there's not. That's not that it doesn't work,

(44:11):
but don't do it because you think all the guys on Instagram
think you need to do it. Like there's a difference
between doing it and understanding why you do it.
So for me, what's my non negotiable in the morning?
It's real simple. I go to bed at the same time
every night and I get up at the same time.
Every night, talk to me. What's that?
It doesn't matter what I go to bed. 930.
Yeah, I'm awake and kind of moving by 5:30.
OK, So you don't have to get up at 4:30.
Like the discipline comes from the action, not what time you

(44:34):
did the action. It's the fact that you have a
sit, go to bed. Like it?
Could be 12. I knew that's why I asked.
I knew you were a formula guy and you'd figured out your life
and there was non negotiables inyour day that allowed Paul to to
think so. So it's bedtime, is there?
Anything so Standard Time. So do that.
I get up in the morning, I get my wife breakfast, I cook the
boys breakfast, I pack their school lunches, boss goes to

(44:54):
work, kids are fed and they're chilling out.
I'll make a cup of tea and me and the dog go outside and I sit
down, have a cup of tea, read a couple of pages of whatever the
hardest book I'm reading at the moment is like something heavy
so that you know your brains working.
Sit outside, check the sheep areOK, you know, watch the sun come
up. It's 5 minutes sets me for the
day done. And like, and it's not elite,

(45:15):
it's not Instagrammable. Like it doesn't look, you know,
super hardcore or anything, but I'm good.
I've had my 5 minutes apiece. I've got everyone sorted, come
back inside, figure out whateverWWE the kids are suddenly trying
to kill each other with. And we, you know, we go from
there back on and away you go. So I've got some things that are
non negotiable in that sense that I've got a framework.

(45:36):
Drop the kids to school, couple of hours of deep work when the
brain starts to get fuzzy, but it's time to go train, hit the
trails, hit the gym, whatever. Come back food, share a couple
of hours of deep work trying to pick the kids up.
Go get the kids, come back. No more deep works getting done
now. But yeah, by the time your kids
sport, run dinner, all that kindof stuff and away you go.
So I've got a structure around trying how I tackle the day, but

(45:58):
I'm not wedded to it. Like oh, I didn't get my 4:30
meditation. Done my day as well, no?
It's not. Paul, talk to us about this anti
fragile philosophy because you're off doing really hard
things, which I, you know, I, I'm a believer when you do the
hard things and you push outsideyour comfort zone, you're
pushing your comfort zone out a bit and, and you're making some

(46:20):
uncomfortable things comfortable.
And that's where the growth lies.
Like you're doing it at an extreme level.
Is, is that something like talk me through your, your beliefs
around that and even even your parenting when it comes to those
sorts of things like. Yeah.
So I'd kind of look at that fromthis point of view.
And I think it was Ryan Holiday that said self belief is
overrated. Generate evidence, build

(46:41):
evidence. That's what you do.
Everyone thinks you've got to gothink, feel, do.
I've got to, I've got to read Marcus Aurelius, I've got to
watch the YouTube video. So I'll get the right thoughts
in my head so that I feel motivated.
So I'll go do the thing. All the traffic's that way.
And that's where all the friction is.
I've got to watch the video, I'll read the book and have the
feelings and then I'll do the thing, Go the other way, just do

(47:02):
the thing. So you start there, do the
thing, and now all of a sudden you start to think I'm the kind
of guy that can do the thing because I've done I've got
evidence that I'm the kind of person that can do something
difficult. And now you start to have the
feelings and the thoughts about that because I'm the kind of
person that did it because I have evidence.
And now it's really easy to go do the thing because you're not
looking for the right YouTube video or book to motivate you.

(47:24):
You've got evidence that you didit.
So the anti fragile thing, I look at it like this.
Let's use an example that helps people understand it.
Imagine a continuum when you hadsick, well and fit.
So you can plot anything like body fat, cardio, heart rate,
whatever you want. If you're sick to get to fit,

(47:44):
you've got to go through well. Like you've got to get well
first and then you're fit. If you're well, you're only one
step away from getting sick. If you're fit, you've got to get
back to being well before you end up getting sick.
So you've kind of got a buffer zone in there.
So when I talk about fragility, same continuum, fragile,

(48:06):
resilient, which is everyone's buzzword and anti fragile at the
end. So look at it this way.
If you're fragile, if I pick up your glass and I drop it and
it's fragile, it breaks. If it's resilient, I pick it up
and I drop it and it survives, it's OK.
If it's anti fragile, I pick it up and I drop it and it gets
stronger than what it was before.

(48:27):
So my argument is that resilience is a halfway house.
Resilience is great and it's an important discussion because
people want to move from that fragile to resilient.
I can survive, I can cope, I canhandle it, but then you're
leaving all the upside off off the table.
I don't want to survive, I want to thrive.
I want to do hard things and come out of the end better than

(48:48):
I was before. I don't just want to cope and I
don't just want to survive it. I want to be better than I was
before and that's where all the upside sits.
So that's where I'm trying to push the conversation.
Brazilians great. We need to take it up a level
because that's where all the advantage lies.
That's where all the competitiveadvantage is, not in the the
halfway in the middle. So how does somebody who maybe

(49:08):
thinks they're in the resilient space, Yep, how do how are we
pushing over to there? What are the things you might
put into your day or set as goals to make yourself any
fragile? Again, it's that building
evidence of you don't have to goout and cross the Arctic.
You just, I mean, you can if youwant, you can if you want, but
you start, you start to build evidence, you little kind of

(49:29):
person that can cope with these things that you can leverage off
these things. And it really is about having a
mindset that you've got to builda mental and behavioural toolkit
around how you handle things andhow you build the story in your
own head about what you want to do and why you're doing it and
what you're actually capable of.And the fastest way to change

(49:49):
that story is to do the thing. Don't worry about waiting for
the motivation to turn up or to read the right book.
Just do the thing. And even if you screw it up,
even if you did the thing and you failed, you did the marathon
and you didn't go well or you didn't finish it or have you,
you get knowledge and you get experience.
You learn, right? You learn.
So you take those tools and you put them in the toolkit and you

(50:10):
use them because. And you also realize it's not
the end of the world. No, go again.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you failed.
Welcome to the human. Yeah, yeah.
Congratulations, winning. Welcome to the club.
It's like, well, that's how it works.
But you take that knowledge and experience and you use those
tools to go back and do the thing again, and you keep
generating that evidence. You're the kind of person that
can do hard things. These are chosen hard things.

(50:32):
Life doesn't work that way. Life gives you plenty of hard
things that you didn't ask for, we didn't expect or haven't
planned on. And when those things come, now
you can look into the cookie jarand go, you know what?
I've done some hard things. I didn't want this, but it's
turned up and it's going to be hard.
But I'm the kind of person that does hard things.
So now I'm going to meet that and use the things in the
toolkit to deal with it. So all of a sudden you're in a

(50:55):
different story, You're in a different mindset right out of
the gate. I think that leads in a much
better position. Gold.
Yeah, that's gold that's brought.
On trying so get getting back toyour origin question, am I
looking at something else which I think is a is an important
question because. What's what?
What's going to satisfy Paul Watkins?
Now, yeah, well, that's a great question because I looked at

(51:16):
going to go and like I was, I get the cool photos, I get to do
the interviews and that kind of stuff.
But for me to go do those races,there's a whole bunch of people
at home who are making sacrifices who can't put the
photos on Instagram. Like my wife's struggling full
time working kids and my parentsare helping and her parents are
helping. Everyone's doing all the things
so you can go off and be adventure boy in the Arctic.
So it's got a if you're going togo through all that work and

(51:37):
that sacrifice, it has to be worth it.
So for me to do another cold race doesn't make sense because.
It cost you money, I would imagine.
What's money like this is this is like it's an investment in
time, it's opportunity cost, butit's there's risk.
There's man, there's risk. Yeah, of course.
And then money, like I could imagine, like I, you know, our
guys know I did the boxing fight.

(51:57):
That cost me money. Yeah.
Because you got to get the training and the gear and then
the, the, the, you know, the nutrition, all the things.
That no guaranteed outcome. Yeah, no, guaranteed.
It all just stacks up and cost money at the end of it.
You go oh shit, that was fuckingexpensive little hobby I just
had, you know what I mean? So is it I would imagine going
to the other side of the world having all this crazy equipment

(52:18):
being you know, self assist, notor not non assisted.
Yeah, yeah, self supported self.Support ordered all of that.
It wouldn't be cheap, would it Paul?
It's not probably in, I had all the gear anyway because the
mountaineering gear like cold weather gear is cold weather
gear. So I had a lot of the equipment
anyway. So for me a lot of the expense
was really travel and the races.The races aren't that expensive,
a couple of grand to do it. Great business model mind.

(52:38):
You, I know, come freeze your balls off from baby 2.
Grand and we've got nothing out.How do I get anyone to sign you
pay your money. You make it too expensive.
You pay me two grand and I'm going to let you walk.
Through the snow, the wilderness.
I'm not going to give you any food, there's no accommodation.
No checkpoints, no flags, no nothing.
We'll just see you at the end. Bro, and you know what'll

(52:59):
happen, 4 out of five of you will fail.
You'll go home, have a crisis about it, and.
Get your money back and you're not getting.
Your money back. It's a great repeat business
model. So for me, I just went back to
first principles. Why do you do these things?
Because I want to learn about myself.
OK, well, if you do another coldrace, you're going to learn any
more about yourself. No.
OK, well, how would you learn more about yourself?
Well, you'd need to do the absolute opposite.
Hot race. So what is the absolute opposite

(53:21):
of what I've done? Let's go go somewhere
scorchingly hot, because that's go to find a desert.
And then I went, OK, so I've gotto go somewhere hot.
Watch one of my strengths. I can go long distances, long
time little sleep. Like I just I can out work
people. I can just grind them down.
What would be the opposite of that?
Well, you do a stage race, so all mine are single stages, as
in you start and you get to the end and you got.

(53:43):
We never stop. A lot of the big ultras, the
overseas ones, are stage races. Day one we get from point A to
point B, stop sleep overnight, get up point B to point.
Like the Tour de France. Yeah, or yeah, marathon to Saab,
things like that. So I thought, OK, let's go
somewhere really hot and let's go somewhere where I lose my
biggest advantage that I can just outwork people for longer.
Let's do a stage race. So just did the search, found a

(54:07):
race in Namibia in West Africa. 250 KS across the Namibian
desert, 50° everyday. I'm like, I reckon I'd learn a
bit there. I reckon I'd learn something
there. So I'm heading over there in
November. Signed up, take my money please.
Fantastic. Go How'd the missus take that
one? So the conversation,
conversation. So I got a new idea.
So anyway, how about this? She's like, so let me get this

(54:29):
right. What I'm hearing from you is
you're going to go do this dumb race, whatever, and then you're
going to organize for all of us to come over so we can join you
and do a safari for the kids andstuff.
Is that what I'm hearing? That's exactly what that is,
correct? Yes.
That is exactly what you heard mate.
Awesome chat, lots of lessons inthere.
Lots of real life lessons, business lessons, life lessons.
You don't know, you don't have to cold plunge anymore.

(54:50):
You're off the hook like. Well, I was thinking of you.
Actually, he likes you like. I was always challenging myself,
as you were saying, and I was like, no, like I feel better
when I get out of it. It's a hard thing that I like to
do and yeah, like I do it for me.
Are you still doing it now, Pete?
You've still done. It yeah, that's fantastic.
But you're doing it because you know it's.
The right thing after you train,like, I don't know, I feel like,
you know, a bit sore and then I get out and I'm probably numb.

(55:11):
I don't feel so. Anymore, I'll tell you what, I'm
in the middle of the Thailand summer training me ass off.
Yeah, ice bucket. And I'm like, not a chance.
But yeah, I thought my record was like, I think it was like 17
seconds like I get. In you got to get past that bit.
The. Breathing bit and then I'm like
crushed. I better get out of it.

(55:32):
I'm coming out I. Feel like I'd like I'm someones
going to have to lift me out, yeah, because I like I'm getting
crushed and I'm like if I don't get out like I'm going to think
they're never. Going to Get Me Out of here.
In the summer, yeah. So you find a nice bath in half
Thailand. Yeah, didn't exist.
No, they have one in the gym. No, they did the place I stayed.
What am I talking? About, they did too.
Was in that every day amazing, so good anyway, but I challenged

(55:55):
myself whilst talking about. Well, that's the thing.
You do it because it works for you.
So you're not doing it because. You think you should be doing
it. You're doing it because I did it
and it worked, so it's worth doing.
So yeah, and the fucking lesson to everyone at home listening to
this, and This is why we wanted to have you on Paul, is wherever
you think your boundaries are. They're not.
There, that's not where the fuckthey are.
And if you think it's too late, you may be 20-30. 404050.

(56:19):
It's not too fucking late, you know what I mean?
It's not too late. And your boundaries can be
wherever you want to set them. You know, I showed that late
last year, you know, or in my small little way at 47 going to
do that and going you can do anything that's not small.
I'm just going to do this. And you just lock in and you do
it and you're doing it with these races.
Paul, man, it's it's it's epic, man.
I keep thinking, would I do? One, I'll send you the link.

(56:42):
I'll look at it this way. You're a work in progress till
you're dead. Yeah, and that's it.
So you never. Finished.
Not guaranteed for anyone. No, no.
And as we get older I'm startingto realize that more and more as
you start to go, you know, you have mates that get crook or
have a heart. I think what it be like, there's
no rule that says there has to be a tomorrow mate.
So you know. Give yourself the best chance.

(57:02):
Push the boundaries yourself. Make the most of it.
Take care of yourself, but then like, what are you waiting for?
Let's do it. There you go.
There you heard it, mate. Thanks so much.
Congratulations. Good luck, cheers.
No November. I'll keep you posted in that
I'll probably melt. I'll be I've got this puddle at
the end of it. Good luck in the heat, at least
your food won't be frozen. Yeah, well, bubble one cooked

(57:26):
the dude. The chocolate bar will be your
bloody yeah. Syrup, right?
Anyone that's going to get valueout of that, share it with your
friends and family that need to hear it.
See you at the top. People will be part of a winning
team. People can find a better version
of themselves if they choose. You just need to go start some
shit action is all that. Matters.
See your man if you work. Think I look back now and I'm

(57:46):
like, well, that took some guts.We can't.
We can't. We can't.
See you at the top.