December 17, 2020 • 42 mins
NYT best-selling author, Helene Wecker, shares her thoughts on busting down barriers, discovering magic, and having an outrageous partner. Learn more about her perspective as we discuss:
- writing her first novel
- the importance of staying "loose" as a writer
- capturing her family's Jewish and Arab American stories
- her outrageous washi tape advice
Guest Biography
Helene Wecker’s first novel, The Golem and the Jinni, was awarded the Mythopoeic Award for Adult Literature, the VCU Cabell Award for First Novel, and the Harold U. Ribalow Prize, and was nominated for a Nebula Award and a World Fantasy Award. Her second novel, The Hidden Palace: A Tale of the Golem and the Jinni will be published in June 2021 by HarperCollins. A Midwest native, she holds a B.A. in English from Carleton College and an M.F.A. in Fiction Writing from Columbia University. Her work has appeared in literary journals such as Joyland and Catamaran, as well as the fantasy anthology The Djinn Falls in Love and Other Stories. She currently lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her husband and children.
Connect with Helene:
Episode References
- The Golem and the Jinni
- The Hidden Palace
- The Night Circus (Erin Morgenstern)
- The Fifth Season (N. K. Jemisin)
- NaNoWriMo
- Hobonichi Planner
---
Lady Grey is an award-winning international entertainer and educator. She has been at the helm of numerous performing arts organizations and has performed everywhere from Broadway to the Sydney Olympics. She currently serves as Artistic Director of Lady Grey's Lovelies and continues to work as a mentor and empowerment coach.
Connect with Lady Grey
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Helene (00:00):
That moment of deciding that this was something that I
(00:04):
needed for myself and that Ivalued enough and that it was
worth putting a littleuncertainty a little scariness
factor into our lives to do itwas because it was going to make
me a happier and better personoverall.
Lady Grey (00:27):
Hello, you lovely humans. Welcome to the live
outrageously with Lady greypodcast. I'm your hostess lady
grey. And I have had the greathonor to interview a number of
super inspiring world changersabout how they live
outrageously. So we're going toshare about how they push
(00:48):
boundaries. They fight forchange, and how they seriously
shake up the status quo.
Friends, I am so excited tointroduce you to New York Times
bestselling author Helenewakker. Her first novel, the
Golem and the genie was awardedthe mythopoeic Award for adult
literature, the VCU cable awardfor first novel and the Herald
(01:12):
you rebello Prize and wasnominated for a Nebula Award and
world fantasy award. Her secondnovel The hidden palace, a tale
of the Golan in the genie willbe published in June 2021 by
Harper Collins, a Midwest nativeand a fellow Libertyville High
School alum. She holds a BA inEnglish from Carleton College
(01:33):
and an MFA in fiction writingfrom Columbia University. Her
work has appeared in literaryjournals such as joy land, and
catamaran as well as the fantasyanthology the gin falls in love
and other stories. She currentlylives in the San Francisco Bay
area with her husband and herchildren. Welcome, welcome.
Welcome, Helene. I am so excitedto have you on the program
(01:56):
today. Well,
Helene (01:58):
Sara, thank you so much for having me.
Lady Grey (02:00):
It has been quite a few years and a few. We I think
our friendship goes back to what1980 something
Helene (02:12):
like that something very, very early. I have I have
photos of you somewhere in a boxthat, you know, from when my
parents sent me all the stuffthat I still had at the house. I
think I have some elementaryschool photos of you looking
incredibly cute.
Lady Grey (02:28):
Oh, sure that that's debatable. So for those of you
that might not know ourfriendship was very tightly
based around the fact that weboth love Star Trek.
Helene (02:43):
Yes.
Lady Grey (02:45):
And not just the end Star Trek The Next Generation.
Yes. Yes. Are we still fightingabout who's sexier Picard or
Riker? Is that still a thing?
Helene (02:55):
Who was going for what you were
Lady Grey (02:59):
100%? Jonathan frakes. Yes.
Helene (03:02):
And I was probably Picard in that. God just like
the charisma of the man. Picardreally is the sexiest man in the
Star Trek universe.
Lady Grey (03:13):
So we're maybe not fighting about it.
Helene (03:15):
We're okay.
Lady Grey (03:17):
Okay, so I think I've matured a little more to the
point where we could bothacknowledge Patrick Stewart's
genius. Yes, yes. and move on.
Alright, so. Okay, I just neededto get that out of the way.
Because this is not a podcastabout Star Trek. But about
living outrageously.
Helene (03:38):
Hmm.
Lady Grey (03:39):
Let's segue, I would love for you to share with us
what you feel like the biggestmoments in your life have been
the most important to you?
Helene (03:52):
Oh, gosh, you know, it's you immediately want to jump to
my wedding, or when my kids wereborn. And those are certainly
big gun important moments. WhenI decided to actually cut back
my hours in my the job that Iwas working in 2003. I think at
(04:16):
that point, I was living inSeattle working in
communications at a public TVstation. And I had over the
previous year started writingagain, I'd started taking
writing classes. It was sort ofthe point in my life where I had
been miserable for a very longtime doing marketing and
communications, and writingabout other people's work. I was
(04:40):
not fulfilled in my job at all.
And this process of getting backinto writing was me sort of
admitting that to myself andadmitting that my my career
wasn't going where I wanted itto, basically because I didn't
care enough about it, and that Ihad to do something that I cared
about more and I do I alwayswanted to be a writer, but
(05:00):
thought that I couldn't. Andthis was admitting to myself,
okay, I can do this, it would bean, an immense amount of work
and uncertainty. And there's onething I hate more than anything
else, it's uncertainty. Myhusband, he was a grad student
at the time. And I was, youknow, I'm working a public TV,
we're not exactly, you know,rolling in the dough. I said,
(05:21):
Look, I really want to ask thestation if I can go part time so
that I can devote more time towriting and actually trying to
make a living name, whatever formyself as a writer, and he said,
Yes, absolutely. This issomething that you need to do. I
think, that moment of decidingthat this was something that I
(05:42):
needed for myself, and that Ivalued enough and that it was
worth putting a littleuncertainty a little scariness
factor into our lives to do itwas because it was going to make
me a happier and better personoverall, and a better partner to
him too. What was prettyhilarious was that I we flew
(06:04):
back from Illinois, that Sundaynight, and then Monday morning,
I found out that I've been laidoff the week before. So it was
sort of like the universesaying, okay, we're gonna do you
one better.
It was a pretty amazinglyserendipitous thing. I was sort
(06:26):
of like, Okay, well, if I'mgoing to do this, I decided I
want to apply to MFA programs, Iwant to go back to school. And
so that moment, you know, it waslike a series of small moments,
small decisions, that all addedup to like a large change in
trajectory. That was veryimportant. In my life, Korean,
my husband, he had to go to NewMexico to do like the actual
(06:49):
research for his PhD. And heknew he was going to be there
for like, nine months. He'slooking at that, as I am looking
at going to Colombia, at thispoint we've been together for I
want to say, like 11 years. Andso I proposed to him, he
accepted. And then we split upand each moved across the
country to a different place. SoSo I ended up in, you know,
(07:15):
Manhattan, and he ended up inLos Alamos, New Mexico, which
was sort of hilarious.
Also, partnering, if you'regoing to partner and have a
creative career, make sure youpartner with the right person.
Kareem has been absolutelyastonishingly amazing about
giving me the space and time andbeing a full co parent, we are
(07:41):
in this together. And you havekids, too. How did that impact
your writing? I want to say thatI learned how to do it. But the
truth is I didn't it's thisconstant renegotiation, am I
working so much that I'm notpaying enough attention to my
kids? Am I being so focused onmy kids, that the people in my
(08:03):
head are drying up and blowingaway? When the first book was
published, my daughter, Maya wasa year old. So the vast majority
of my writing career up untilthat point, I did not know what
it was like to write and be aparent at the same time. And
that was what I had to learntrial by fire with this second
(08:25):
book. And, yeah, and I'm notsure I'm honestly not sure how
much of it just has to do withmy own creative process, the way
that I seem to go after very bigproblems and very large stories,
that I have to get my wholebrain around before I feel like
(08:47):
I can write them with anyconfidence to do that takes a
lot of hard solo, deep workalone in a room where I lock
myself away and immerse myselfin something and become a
terrible person for everyoneelse to live with. Which isn't
(09:09):
the best when you've also gotkids. So it's learning to be
okay with just not being inbalance sometimes. Right?
Lady Grey (09:21):
This magnificent work, which has been a huge part
of my life and my love storywith my own husband, a Golem in
the genie. I feel like that bookis this beautifully outrageous
work. And yes, I'm biasedbecause I know the author. But I
also am really intrigued by acouple different things that
(09:44):
relate to it, the one being thatit does not fit in any one
genre. It has completely likebusted through this idea of Oh,
this book has to be in a certaincategory. And then the other
thing is that there's a greatstory Behind you're writing
this, from what I understand. SoI know all of that, but I know
(10:06):
that people listening don'tknow, and I would love for you
to share with them that processand you know how you came up
with this brilliant idea.
Helene (10:15):
When you get to a masters of Fine Arts fiction
program like Columbia, it's amaster's and you have a thesis
but the thesis of his creativework, they let you know,
basically from the second youget there, okay, you have a
certain number of years here, bythe end of them, you need to
have your thesis your your, yourbody of work written. And this
(10:38):
is usually either like shortstories, or a part of a novel,
something that you are planningon making into your first
hopefully published work, youknow, this is what you're going
to shop around. When I gotthere, I had it in my head that
my first book was going to be acollection of links, short
(11:01):
stories that were based onfamily stories from my family
and from Karim's family, myhusband's family, because I'm,
you know, Jewish American, he'sArab American. One of the things
that that continually struck meover, you know, however many
years now, is how similar ourfamily stories are in issues of
(11:25):
immigration, and to America andlanguages and cultural
difference. And then, you know,being the child of an immigrant
or the, you know, having thatpassed down to you as sort of a
legacy and how it affects theway you view the light the world
around you, and how it alwaysmakes you feel a little bit like
(11:47):
an outsider, even when possiblythat isn't warranted. I was
like, Okay, I've got all thismaterial in all these stories
I've heard from my family, fromhis family, all these years, I'm
going to write these stories,and they're going to sort of
follow this, you know, Jewishgirl and this Arab American boy
as they sort of learn more abouteach other's families. And so I
(12:07):
started writing these stories.
The problem that I very quicklystarted running into was that
they weren't good. The story'sjust more not good. I was doing
a pretty poor job of it. I knewit, you know, yeah, I know, when
I'm not writing somethinginteresting. They just sort of
arrived flat on the page anddidn't have much energy to them.
(12:31):
Looking back on it, I'm prettysure that it's because I knew
everything I was going to write.
And so there was no discovery init for me. I wasn't intrigued by
them. I was just sort ofreporting.
I, you know, got to your to andI'm getting these very tepid
responses out of my my workshop,you know, you don't pay all that
(12:53):
money for them to be nice toyou. They're going to tell you
what, what they think I washaving this conversation with a
friend of mine, Amanda, who wasin my workshop with me, she gave
me probably the biggest the besttough love conversation I've had
in my life. She said, Helene,can I ask you a question? She
(13:16):
said, Helene, why are youwriting like this? So what do
you what do you mean? Why am Iwriting like what? She said,
okay, you're doing these very,like Raymond Carver, very
realist short stories, you know,very MFA model, but that's not
who you are. I've been to yourapartment. I've seen your
(13:37):
bookshelves. I know what a nerdyou are. And you are always
talking in class about injectingthe genre into literature and
busting down the barriers andbringing the magic into stories.
And that's what you groove on.
So why aren't you not doingthat? I honestly had never
thought of that. And she justsort of it was like, she taken
(14:01):
my head and whipped it around towhere I needed to be looking at
the you know, I'm still like,but that's not these stories
don't with the mat. No. And shesaid, Okay, look, the next thing
I see from you in workshop, Iwant it to be about your
families, but I want it to bemagical. I was like, Okay, I
just, you know, it was likeokay, well, that's that's my
(14:26):
marching orders. I'm going to dowhat she said, I'm going to, you
know, I went home and I justsort of sat and thought about
it. It was literally I think twohours later, I had the rough
outline for what would be theGolem and the genie. I was like,
Okay, what if I take the thisthis Jewish girl and this Arab
(14:47):
American boy, and what if I turnthem into something a little
more? Neil Gaiman esque. Alittle more fantasy a little
like these would have these areThe emblematic folklore
creatures of each culture Whatif I turn them into like a girl
Golem, and a boy Genie, I couldpretty immediately see these
(15:08):
two. And they were there. Thewoman was like this tall, like
prim looking woman who looked alittle shy and awkward and
unsure of herself. And the boywas this also tall, sort of
devilishly charismatic lookingGenie, who look okay, might be a
bit of a bad boy. And I waslike, Ooh, okay, what, what am I
(15:31):
going to do with the two of you?
And then it was just from therea process of discovery and trial
and error and being like, okay,where would these two meet?
Where they would meet here inNew York? Where else are they
going to meet? It's it's like,you know, the all the world's
cultures coming together? Well,when would that be? Well, how
about the heyday of immigration?
What about like the late 18,early 1900s, when everyone's
(15:54):
coming through Ellis Island, youknow, all shoved together, I
sort of worked with my curiosityout front, to figure out who
these people were, what theirstory was, and how I was going
to make it work instead ofhaving everything fed to me by
another source. And that made itinteresting to me. And I think
(16:15):
that is, in turn sort of whatmade it interesting on the page.
So I wrote a good, I don't know,15-20 pages, and I brought them
to workshop, my next turn. Andeveryone read it and got back to
me and said, this is better thanwhat you've been doing. So you
know, good on you. But you'rewrong about something. And they
(16:36):
said, No, this isn't a shortstory. This is a novel, and
you've got a big novel here. Andyou really need to figure that
out. And I did not believe them.
I said, you know, this is not anovel, this is this is a thing
that I am doing for fun. Andthen I'm going to get back to
the real stuff, then the storyjust kept getting longer and
longer and longer. And it wouldnot end it was like I was
chasing the horizon. Andfinally, I had to admit that
(16:58):
they were right, and that I hadbid off something huge. And now
I had to figure out how to chewit. And that process took a
number of years, I had toresearch everything from
scratch. Because I knew nothing.
I knew nothing about life in NewYork in the late 19th century
and write the basics of howpeople lived and and, and so on.
And so everything was research.
(17:21):
And and it was a long andgrueling process. Before I had
anything that looked remotelylike a saleable book. And by the
time I did, I'd left New York, Ifinished my program, and we
moved back out here. And, youknow, we had gotten married in
the meantime, and I just keptplugging away at this thing. And
eventually, there was enough andit became a book.
Lady Grey (17:41):
Yeah, well, we are very, very grateful to your
workshop before. No. But I loveyou, as you talked about the
magic and inserting the magicand then finding a setting and
the setting happens to behistorical. So there's it's
historical fiction. And at thesame time, it's also this love
(18:03):
story. And it has, it has allthese beautiful components to it
that I recommend it to everyone.
It is just a fantastic read. Iam really, really looking
forward to the next book. Allright, yeah. Tell us because I
know this has been a long timecoming. Yes, this has been sort
(18:25):
of a labor of love maybe thesecond, the sequel,
Helene (18:31):
The sequel, I should say, first off is called the
hidden palace. And it and it'scoming out in June of next year.
And for a very long time. Thankyou for a very long time, I
thought it was not going tohappen. This is the book that
I've been beating my headagainst for years. Now. I got
the contract for it. The week Iturned 40. And that was five
(18:58):
over five years ago now. And Ithought it was going to be done
in about two years. I'm like, Iknow this thing. I know how to
be a writer. Now. I know how towrite a book. And they tell you
not to do that. They tell youevery book kills you over, you
know, and he puts you right backin the beginner spot. For two
years in grad school. I listento writers say that over and
over again. And there's alwaysthat part of your brain is like
(19:21):
Yeah, but not me. Of course forthem, but not me. I honestly
don't think it's arrogance. It'sthe brain just protecting itself
so that you will actually do thething when when you have to
The book ended up taking a lotlonger than I wanted it to. I
have incredibly patient peoplethat I work with. I have an
(19:43):
agent who is just I couldn't askfor anyone better to represent
me who has to listen to me on myphones sort of on the phone beat
myself up over, you know, as faralong as they want to be. That's
okay. Helene. That's okay. Andthen an editor at HarperCollins,
(20:03):
who basically, at one point justsort of gave me an extra year
and said, okay, you know, I readwhere things are, and they're,
it's good, but let's give youanother year to really nail this
thing down. And I was like, Oh,thank God, you know, this is
this, this is the stuff that notevery writer gets. And, yes, I
(20:24):
have, I have some talent, thereare a lot of people out there
with talent who do not get, youknow, slack cut for them, by the
people around them. And so I amfeeling very, very grateful
about that.
Lady Grey (20:35):
I think it's a testimony to how wonderful the
first book was, and whathappened when you were given the
time and space to really developyour dream of this story. I'm
really looking forward to it.
I'm curious, I have tried myhand at writing, I've gotten two
or three projects startedoutlined, you know, ready to go.
(20:58):
And like you said, they, theyjust lay flat on the page. You
know, I'm sure that there arepeople out there listening to
this right now who havebeautiful stories to tell. And
they have this incrediblemessage to share with the world,
whatever that might be. But, youknow, staying motivated when the
when the writing just doesn'tflow? is I think it's one of the
hardest things. Oh, yeah, I'dlove to hear I'd love to hear
(21:22):
your thoughts on like, how yousort of Jerry rigged the
motivation, like how, whathappens when you just have to
write
Helene (21:31):
that, oh, it's the worst, it is the worst, because
it's like you just every wordstarts to feel like a stone,
like just plod, plod plod. Ithink part of what I try to do
when that happens is to getcurious about why what if I try
(21:52):
writing it from someone else'sperspective? What if I go back
and see if you know, maybe Iveered off course, you know, a
chapter ago that that happens tome Actually, fairly often. If I
feel like something just is notworking on the page, it's not
(22:13):
the fault of whatever ishappening, then I screwed up
somewhere. But somewhere behindme is the wrong turn. So I you
know, go back and try to figureout where that was, is in a can
start to feel like the gameswhere you put a ball in the top
(22:35):
and it sort of goes down andsits like a logic puzzle. And it
can go any number of directions.
And there's like 15 slots in thebottom where the ball can end
up. One of those is where youwant the ball to be. But you
don't necessarily know whichone. And the only way you can
figure out is you get the ballon the bottom and you're like,
Oh, no, I don't like it there.
(22:57):
That's the wrong one. Well backit up a bit. Where can What if I
back it up to here and then dosomething different? Can it go
there? It's this combination oflearning the story as you go
along, and trying to figure outwhat shape the narrative needs
to take. That results in all ofthese tiny little decisions. And
(23:18):
sometimes what it takes is justletting a character do something
completely bizarre to just seewhat everyone else does. Okay,
and that can help you figure outthe characters that can help you
figure out maybe where the backof your mind really does want
the story to go.
There's a woman named ErinMorgenstern. She is a writer who
(23:39):
wrote incredibly popular bookcalled The Night Circus that I
love.
Isn't isn't it? Great?
And it's it's like one of thebooks that if you do the Venn
diagram of writers, you know, ifyou like this book, you'll like
that book, we are books sort ofsometimes end up in the same
pile. And she she wrote thefirst draft during NaNoWriMo,
(24:03):
National Novel Writing Month,years and years ago, she was
writing about it on Twitter, andshe said, often, the Night
Circus gets called out for, youknow, being written during
NaNoWriMo. And she said, whatyou need to know is that, in
that first draft, the draft wasgoing so poorly. And the
characters to me were so boring,that I got desperate and sent
(24:26):
them to a circus. And that ishow the book began. That is,
that was like when the bookreally began. And so I think
sometimes, you have to just dothat. You have to just say,
Okay, look, this is obviouslynot happening the way I want it
to. Maybe there's another way.
And you know, even if it's justthe, you know, you send them to
(24:51):
a circus and then three pageslater, you're like, Okay, well,
that was fun. And now they'reback from the circus. At least
you gotten that little bit of abreak, to maybe let the back of
your brain non something andspit out an answer?
Lady Grey (25:07):
Yeah. So I'm curious how you turn on, like the
magical, outrageous flow ofcreativity in that moment, how
do you get your imagination toreflect back magically on the
page?
Helene (25:22):
I honestly think some of it is cutting yourself some
slack. And we are so hard onourselves, especially for those
of us, you know, when we arewriting in our precious free
moments, and the words aren'tcoming, and it just makes it
that much worse, because of it,that we're like, this is the
hour that I carved out formyself and blood, sweat, and
(25:45):
tears. And now I'm sitting hereand I am hating everything that
I'm writing. And then you'rejust like, it's, it's just not
gonna go anywhere at that point.
Honestly, just back to basics,write some silly stuff, do the
three page brain dump, you know,just writing words without
stopping, even if it's yourthing, elephant over and over
(26:08):
again, for three paragraphs orwhatever it is, just let
yourself let something go.
Because otherwise, we're justwound so tightly, there has to
be a certain looseness, put thetwo things together that weren't
necessarily supposed to betogether, you have to allow
space for that to happen. And Isay that the least loose person
(26:32):
in the world, very tightlywound. But at the same time,
it's it's, there is a certainamount of that in the process.
It's the most confounding part.
But it's also like where a lotof the magic happens.
Lady Grey (26:44):
Well, and it sounds very familiar to me, in my
creative process with with danceor whatever it is that I'm
creating. I have a lot of, youknow, improvisation that I do,
right? And you check it becauseit's just garbage, right,
whatever. But you just keepgoing until you land on an idea.
Sometimes I even have to golooking for inspiration.
Helene (27:05):
No, I think I have a hard time picking books to read
while I'm writing. Because Idon't want to pick something
that is going to bring me farenough out of my mindset that
it's going to sort of end updragging the book along with it.
So I end up reading a lot ofbooks that have a really strong
(27:27):
sense of place, with charactersthat notice details, books that
are complete worlds that someonehas created.
There's a writer named NKJemisin, who wrote a trilogy
where all three books, wonHugo's, and she was the first
person to ever do that threetimes in a row. And the first
(27:49):
book is called Fifth Season. Andit's this world that she
created, where every so oftenevery number of years, there's a
major geological event, and theentire society comes crumbling
down, and they have to restartagain. It's a story about
slavery and inequality andmaking the world right and what
(28:14):
it takes like that the pain andsacrifice that it takes to make
things right, and how damagingit can be to a person. And it's
this insanely good trilogy.
There's so many trilogies thatyou read, and I say this as a
person who has written one bookhas now written a sequel, and
people are asking me if they'regoing to be a third. And there's
so many trilogies you read whereit's like, well, you had a
really good idea for a book,didn't you? You had a really
(28:36):
good idea for one book, and thenthey made you write two more.
This trilogy is not that it justkept getting bigger and better
and Wilder, and you're seeingthe world getting filled in and
everything just taking on somuch more emotional resonance,
the ending was just spectacular.
(28:57):
I sat back from it, I was like,how in the world? Did she write
this? How did she write this?
Without going off and living ina monastery for a decade to do
it? How is she a person in theworld like using social media
and having relationships withher friends? And not you know,
off like Jimi Hendrix and hisguitar, like just, you know,
immersing herself in this thing?
(29:20):
What kind of a mind does thattake? There's a certain amount
of professional jealousy inthere too, of course.
But it's also like, show me howyou did that. It's like
magicians who want to learn eachother's tricks. I'm like, you
put those words together in thatparticular order. And no one has
ever done that before. And howdid you come up on that? That's
(29:44):
what keeps me going in mywriting as sort of inspiration
to to match that to do somethingto write a sentence or a story
or a paragraph that is going tomake a person feel Something
resonant. That to me, I think,is how I get my inspiration
(30:06):
because he get to a certainpoint where like, it's all just
words. It's all words, peoplehave been writing words for
like, years, hasn't someonewritten the sentence before? My
god, this is boring. And thenyou have to like, go and find
something that fills fills thewell back up is like, nope,
nope, nope, writing stillmatters. This is still awesome
stuff that I get to do. And Ijust have to keep at it.
Lady Grey (30:29):
So I feel this deep in my bones when you're talking
about, I feel like it's justlovely to, you know, hear how
other people stay motivated.
Like you have a deadline, right?
And I'm right now I have nodeadlines, because nobody's
performing live. But if you havea deadline, you know, there are
some real kind of tricks thatyou have to almost resort to, to
(30:53):
get yourself back into thatplace where you're like, yeah,
I've got I've got gold, I've gotsomething I really have to get
on the page. I would love tohear and this is maybe, maybe
you're not ready to answer thisquestion. You've got this
beautiful second volume. Uh huh.
That you have written. Andobviously, that's still kind of
in the works. And you you'veyour brain has not left that
(31:14):
your hearts still in the thickof that. Yep. But let's say that
you had all of the time in theworld. And all of the energy and
the unlimited resources, I wouldlove to know, if you have one
passion project, or outrageousdream or some other thing on the
horizon, that maybe we get asneak peek from you,
Helene (31:40):
you know, there's a few that have been in the back of my
mind of what I'm going to dowhen this is all over. So part
of this five year process withwriting the hidden palace was
writing many books that Ithought were this book, but
we're not, I have a lot ofmaterial that was cut entire
(32:03):
subplots and characters andthings that like I spent weeks
researching that then justdisappeared from the book, it's
all still in a file, you know,it's all still on my computer, I
would love to write back to abook of short stories that are
(32:24):
basically everything else thatwas going on. In these other
characters lives, people whodon't even show up on the page.
But while this book is going on,here is also what was going on,
like a universe expansion. Itfeels like a passion project.
And not just like the next bookI'm writing because I did put a
(32:44):
lot of myself into the stuffthat ended up getting taken off
the page completely. I reallywant so much of that was some of
the best stuff. I just want itto be out in the world. I want
it and maybe that's egotistical,but it's like no, I put a lot
into this, I kind of want peopleto see it. Also, I would love to
(33:07):
do a graphic novel, sometime. Ihave no art ability. I can't
draw a stick figure even. Butit's such a different medium to
just have words and picturesjust just to have dialogue and
pictures on a page. And I don'teven know what the story would
be I don't know if it would be,you know, something in this
(33:28):
universe that I'm working in. Orif it would be something
completely different. I wouldlove to do that with some
artists somewhere. Other thanthat, I think my passion project
has been getting this book donefor so long. That that it's you
know, anything looking beyondthat. It's I'm just starting to
(33:49):
do that. Now.
Lady Grey (33:50):
That makes perfect sense to me. Just because it has
been such a huge project. Imean, it really, and probably
all Yeah, having a lot of ways.
So now I want to segue a littlebit. We're gonna call it
Helene's outrageous advice.
Okay. You gave some great adviceearlier to people who are
(34:11):
writing Uh huh. Do you have anyoutrageous advice for people in
general that might not bewriters but are things that you
do either to keep yourselfcreative or juggle your being a
mom or maybe it is simply howyou stock your bar and that's
(34:32):
outrageous. Does something cometo mind? That's outrageous that
you would encourage other peopleto try.
Helene (34:40):
You know, it's funny, you warned me in advance that
this was coming and and i i putsome hard thought into it,
because probably has come acrossthat I'm pretty much a 45 year
old mom and that's I rageousisn't something I think of
myself as but
Lady Grey (34:59):
I am And I totally think you're not only
outrageous, but magical. Okay,okay, welcome to the tribe
Helene (35:05):
good, I have probably out of whack ideas about what
that actually means. But I thinkeveryone should have something
they do some hobby, or pastimeor collection or something that
has no redeeming valuewhatsoever except for the fact
that it makes you happy. Justgoing back to this idea of how
(35:29):
precious Our time is and howover planned we get and how we
especially those of us willkids, it's like every moment has
to be occupied with somethingpurposeful and enriching. And
hopefully multitasking, and avalue add and we've all got our
side hustles and we we get hungup on this like productivity
(35:49):
stuff, I honestly feel we needoutlets that are completely on
enriching mine right now isfountain pens and stationery. So
you know, I was I was, I'vealways been like an office
supply girl. But you know, nowI'm an adult with a credit card.
And, and an internet connection.
And, um, and so, you know, Iwill just go to Etsy and buy
(36:13):
stickers. Like, like, I'm a kidin a candy shop, I actually have
a sticker subscription that Iget every month, I get my happy
mail that's got cute stickers init. But you know, this is this
is cheating just a bit because Ihave a planner. It's like a
paper planner. It's called ahobo Nietzsche that's made by a
Japanese company. And the paperin it is astonishing. It is a
(36:35):
planner. So like I am using itto sort of like plan my days.
And in that sense, it's it isenriching, or productive or
whatever. But it's all an excuseto use my pens, and my stickers
and my washi tape. I write twoparagraphs about the day. That's
basically like what I ate fordinner. And the rest is just
like, Okay, what color stickersShould I put on here and what
(36:57):
should accessorize that with?
And it just makes me so stupidlyhappy. for no other reason that
I'm using my fancy pen in myfancy planner with my fancy
stickers. It's the stupidestthing ever. But it just makes me
so happy.
Lady Grey (37:11):
You know, I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say
there might have been a reason.
such good friends. Yeah. Foryounger. I have a similar
habits. I'll call it. I don'tthink it's a hobby for me.
Helene (37:28):
Is it a hoarding situation? Because that's what
it is starting to turn into overhere.
Lady Grey (37:36):
So it's a running joke in our household? Uh huh.
How many notebooks?
Helene (37:40):
Oh, yeah.
Lady Grey (37:41):
You recall, we had a very dear friend in high school
Jenny, who used to carry arounda pencil pouch with all of Yep,
colored pens in it. About sixmonths ago, I got myself a
little 1930s style one because Ihave so many Evans, that it got
(38:02):
to that point. And I thought Iwas inspired by Jenny. So Jenny,
yep, you know, you arespeaking of shoutouts while
we're on that, so I always liketo ask people if they have an
outrageous fan or somebody thatthey really just want to
recognize and say hey to andthanks for being such an amazing
supporter. guy.
Helene (38:25):
I think what I have to say is thank you, to the moms of
all of my friends. My friends,moms, are the ones who like,
Helene, I am so happy for youthat you put this book out, this
is what my book club is readingand they don't know it yet. They
are aggressively hand selling mybook to their friends. You know,
(38:49):
I'm like, thank God for you, Ilove you all, you know, they
turn up at readings and it'sjust so wonderful. There's also
a guy who read my book when itcame out in 2013. And has read
it every year since I think itwas either that year or soon
after he had a baby girl and heread it to her aloud. And then
(39:10):
he like did the same thefollowing year and and then he
had to stop reading it to herbecause she was getting older
and understanding words and it'snot a book for kids. But but he
still he still sort of pings meevery year I just read your book
again and I'm looking forward towhen you know when my daughter
is old enough to read it herselfand it's just so sweet. And it's
so wonderful to like have thatconnection and you know people
(39:32):
that I sort of see going on andyou know as time passes and
they're still you know fans andand the I can't let them down
this book has to you know, thenext books got to be decent. And
so that was also a good bit ofthe motivation behind not just
dropping the second book intothe garbage. But no, he's a real
(39:52):
sweetheart and and I love I loveall of my readers.
Lady Grey (39:56):
So let's assume that you're going to have some news.
readers, that would be great.
That would be wonderful. Soobviously, they can read your
first book The Golem and theJinni, but then we're looking
for the Hidden Palace in 2021.
But in the meantime, is thereany way that they can kind of
keep track of what you're doing?
Or what you're up to? Shouldthey find you on like Goodreads?
(40:19):
Or do you have a website or, or
Helene (40:22):
my website, my website is woefully
Lady Grey (40:25):
out of date, though
Helene (40:26):
I for now, hold off on the website. You know, if you're
hearing this, like in March ofnext year or so go give
Helenewecker.com a try beforethen it's just going to be here
is what I was doing in 2016.
Until then, the best place tofind me is on Twitter,
@Helenewecker. I am also onInstagram, I think the same
handle or you can just type meinto the search bar. Those two
(40:49):
places I post sporadically. It'swhere I also like respond to
mail or requests or DMS or stufflike that.
Lady Grey (40:59):
And I will drop the links to all these things. So we
talked about a bunch of booksand websites and authors and all
kinds of stuff. So all of thatwill be in the show notes.
Helene (41:07):
Thank you.
Lady Grey (41:08):
Well, it has been a huge pleasure. It's so great to
reconnect with you all.
Helene (41:13):
Thank you very, very much. This has been this has
been awesome.
Lady Grey (41:19):
Well, you are always welcome. Anytime you want to
come back on the show. Thank youso much. And thank you for
teaching us to live a littlemore outrageousl
Well, outrageous friends. It hasbeen my honor and my pleasure to
have you here today. I hope thatyou took away some outrageous
(41:40):
ideas for your own life. If youenjoyed yourself, make sure that
you are subscribed to liveoutrageously with Lady gray on
whatever your podcast app is.
You can also connect with mepersonally on
facebook facebook.com/outraeousladygrey or on Instagr
m at lady.grey. Also be sure toheck out our podcast website at
(42:01):
ww.liveoutrageously.comOnce again, this is Lady Grey
encouraging you to go out andlive outrageously.
That moment of deciding that this was something that I
(00:04):
needed for myself and that Ivalued enough and that it was
worth putting a littleuncertainty a little scariness
factor into our lives to do itwas because it was going to make
me a happier and better personoverall.
Lady Grey (00:27):
Hello, you lovely humans. Welcome to the live
outrageously with Lady greypodcast. I'm your hostess lady
grey. And I have had the greathonor to interview a number of
super inspiring world changersabout how they live
outrageously. So we're going toshare about how they push
(00:48):
boundaries. They fight forchange, and how they seriously
shake up the status quo.
Friends, I am so excited tointroduce you to New York Times
bestselling author Helenewakker. Her first novel, the
Golem and the genie was awardedthe mythopoeic Award for adult
literature, the VCU cable awardfor first novel and the Herald
(01:12):
you rebello Prize and wasnominated for a Nebula Award and
world fantasy award. Her secondnovel The hidden palace, a tale
of the Golan in the genie willbe published in June 2021 by
Harper Collins, a Midwest nativeand a fellow Libertyville High
School alum. She holds a BA inEnglish from Carleton College
(01:33):
and an MFA in fiction writingfrom Columbia University. Her
work has appeared in literaryjournals such as joy land, and
catamaran as well as the fantasyanthology the gin falls in love
and other stories. She currentlylives in the San Francisco Bay
area with her husband and herchildren. Welcome, welcome.
Welcome, Helene. I am so excitedto have you on the program
(01:56):
today. Well,
Helene (01:58):
Sara, thank you so much for having me.
Lady Grey (02:00):
It has been quite a few years and a few. We I think
our friendship goes back to what1980 something
Helene (02:12):
like that something very, very early. I have I have
photos of you somewhere in a boxthat, you know, from when my
parents sent me all the stuffthat I still had at the house. I
think I have some elementaryschool photos of you looking
incredibly cute.
Lady Grey (02:28):
Oh, sure that that's debatable. So for those of you
that might not know ourfriendship was very tightly
based around the fact that weboth love Star Trek.
Helene (02:43):
Yes.
Lady Grey (02:45):
And not just the end Star Trek The Next Generation.
Yes. Yes. Are we still fightingabout who's sexier Picard or
Riker? Is that still a thing?
Helene (02:55):
Who was going for what you were
Lady Grey (02:59):
100%? Jonathan frakes. Yes.
Helene (03:02):
And I was probably Picard in that. God just like
the charisma of the man. Picardreally is the sexiest man in the
Star Trek universe.
Lady Grey (03:13):
So we're maybe not fighting about it.
Helene (03:15):
We're okay.
Lady Grey (03:17):
Okay, so I think I've matured a little more to the
point where we could bothacknowledge Patrick Stewart's
genius. Yes, yes. and move on.
Alright, so. Okay, I just neededto get that out of the way.
Because this is not a podcastabout Star Trek. But about
living outrageously.
Helene (03:38):
Hmm.
Lady Grey (03:39):
Let's segue, I would love for you to share with us
what you feel like the biggestmoments in your life have been
the most important to you?
Helene (03:52):
Oh, gosh, you know, it's you immediately want to jump to
my wedding, or when my kids wereborn. And those are certainly
big gun important moments. WhenI decided to actually cut back
my hours in my the job that Iwas working in 2003. I think at
(04:16):
that point, I was living inSeattle working in
communications at a public TVstation. And I had over the
previous year started writingagain, I'd started taking
writing classes. It was sort ofthe point in my life where I had
been miserable for a very longtime doing marketing and
communications, and writingabout other people's work. I was
(04:40):
not fulfilled in my job at all.
And this process of getting backinto writing was me sort of
admitting that to myself andadmitting that my my career
wasn't going where I wanted itto, basically because I didn't
care enough about it, and that Ihad to do something that I cared
about more and I do I alwayswanted to be a writer, but
(05:00):
thought that I couldn't. Andthis was admitting to myself,
okay, I can do this, it would bean, an immense amount of work
and uncertainty. And there's onething I hate more than anything
else, it's uncertainty. Myhusband, he was a grad student
at the time. And I was, youknow, I'm working a public TV,
we're not exactly, you know,rolling in the dough. I said,
(05:21):
Look, I really want to ask thestation if I can go part time so
that I can devote more time towriting and actually trying to
make a living name, whatever formyself as a writer, and he said,
Yes, absolutely. This issomething that you need to do. I
think, that moment of decidingthat this was something that I
(05:42):
needed for myself, and that Ivalued enough and that it was
worth putting a littleuncertainty a little scariness
factor into our lives to do itwas because it was going to make
me a happier and better personoverall, and a better partner to
him too. What was prettyhilarious was that I we flew
(06:04):
back from Illinois, that Sundaynight, and then Monday morning,
I found out that I've been laidoff the week before. So it was
sort of like the universesaying, okay, we're gonna do you
one better.
It was a pretty amazinglyserendipitous thing. I was sort
(06:26):
of like, Okay, well, if I'mgoing to do this, I decided I
want to apply to MFA programs, Iwant to go back to school. And
so that moment, you know, it waslike a series of small moments,
small decisions, that all addedup to like a large change in
trajectory. That was veryimportant. In my life, Korean,
my husband, he had to go to NewMexico to do like the actual
(06:49):
research for his PhD. And heknew he was going to be there
for like, nine months. He'slooking at that, as I am looking
at going to Colombia, at thispoint we've been together for I
want to say, like 11 years. Andso I proposed to him, he
accepted. And then we split upand each moved across the
country to a different place. SoSo I ended up in, you know,
(07:15):
Manhattan, and he ended up inLos Alamos, New Mexico, which
was sort of hilarious.
Also, partnering, if you'regoing to partner and have a
creative career, make sure youpartner with the right person.
Kareem has been absolutelyastonishingly amazing about
giving me the space and time andbeing a full co parent, we are
(07:41):
in this together. And you havekids, too. How did that impact
your writing? I want to say thatI learned how to do it. But the
truth is I didn't it's thisconstant renegotiation, am I
working so much that I'm notpaying enough attention to my
kids? Am I being so focused onmy kids, that the people in my
(08:03):
head are drying up and blowingaway? When the first book was
published, my daughter, Maya wasa year old. So the vast majority
of my writing career up untilthat point, I did not know what
it was like to write and be aparent at the same time. And
that was what I had to learntrial by fire with this second
(08:25):
book. And, yeah, and I'm notsure I'm honestly not sure how
much of it just has to do withmy own creative process, the way
that I seem to go after very bigproblems and very large stories,
that I have to get my wholebrain around before I feel like
(08:47):
I can write them with anyconfidence to do that takes a
lot of hard solo, deep workalone in a room where I lock
myself away and immerse myselfin something and become a
terrible person for everyoneelse to live with. Which isn't
(09:09):
the best when you've also gotkids. So it's learning to be
okay with just not being inbalance sometimes. Right?
Lady Grey (09:21):
This magnificent work, which has been a huge part
of my life and my love storywith my own husband, a Golem in
the genie. I feel like that bookis this beautifully outrageous
work. And yes, I'm biasedbecause I know the author. But I
also am really intrigued by acouple different things that
(09:44):
relate to it, the one being thatit does not fit in any one
genre. It has completely likebusted through this idea of Oh,
this book has to be in a certaincategory. And then the other
thing is that there's a greatstory Behind you're writing
this, from what I understand. SoI know all of that, but I know
(10:06):
that people listening don'tknow, and I would love for you
to share with them that processand you know how you came up
with this brilliant idea.
Helene (10:15):
When you get to a masters of Fine Arts fiction
program like Columbia, it's amaster's and you have a thesis
but the thesis of his creativework, they let you know,
basically from the second youget there, okay, you have a
certain number of years here, bythe end of them, you need to
have your thesis your your, yourbody of work written. And this
(10:38):
is usually either like shortstories, or a part of a novel,
something that you are planningon making into your first
hopefully published work, youknow, this is what you're going
to shop around. When I gotthere, I had it in my head that
my first book was going to be acollection of links, short
(11:01):
stories that were based onfamily stories from my family
and from Karim's family, myhusband's family, because I'm,
you know, Jewish American, he'sArab American. One of the things
that that continually struck meover, you know, however many
years now, is how similar ourfamily stories are in issues of
(11:25):
immigration, and to America andlanguages and cultural
difference. And then, you know,being the child of an immigrant
or the, you know, having thatpassed down to you as sort of a
legacy and how it affects theway you view the light the world
around you, and how it alwaysmakes you feel a little bit like
(11:47):
an outsider, even when possiblythat isn't warranted. I was
like, Okay, I've got all thismaterial in all these stories
I've heard from my family, fromhis family, all these years, I'm
going to write these stories,and they're going to sort of
follow this, you know, Jewishgirl and this Arab American boy
as they sort of learn more abouteach other's families. And so I
(12:07):
started writing these stories.
The problem that I very quicklystarted running into was that
they weren't good. The story'sjust more not good. I was doing
a pretty poor job of it. I knewit, you know, yeah, I know, when
I'm not writing somethinginteresting. They just sort of
arrived flat on the page anddidn't have much energy to them.
(12:31):
Looking back on it, I'm prettysure that it's because I knew
everything I was going to write.
And so there was no discovery init for me. I wasn't intrigued by
them. I was just sort ofreporting.
I, you know, got to your to andI'm getting these very tepid
responses out of my my workshop,you know, you don't pay all that
(12:53):
money for them to be nice toyou. They're going to tell you
what, what they think I washaving this conversation with a
friend of mine, Amanda, who wasin my workshop with me, she gave
me probably the biggest the besttough love conversation I've had
in my life. She said, Helene,can I ask you a question? She
(13:16):
said, Helene, why are youwriting like this? So what do
you what do you mean? Why am Iwriting like what? She said,
okay, you're doing these very,like Raymond Carver, very
realist short stories, you know,very MFA model, but that's not
who you are. I've been to yourapartment. I've seen your
(13:37):
bookshelves. I know what a nerdyou are. And you are always
talking in class about injectingthe genre into literature and
busting down the barriers andbringing the magic into stories.
And that's what you groove on.
So why aren't you not doingthat? I honestly had never
thought of that. And she justsort of it was like, she taken
(14:01):
my head and whipped it around towhere I needed to be looking at
the you know, I'm still like,but that's not these stories
don't with the mat. No. And shesaid, Okay, look, the next thing
I see from you in workshop, Iwant it to be about your
families, but I want it to bemagical. I was like, Okay, I
just, you know, it was likeokay, well, that's that's my
(14:26):
marching orders. I'm going to dowhat she said, I'm going to, you
know, I went home and I justsort of sat and thought about
it. It was literally I think twohours later, I had the rough
outline for what would be theGolem and the genie. I was like,
Okay, what if I take the thisthis Jewish girl and this Arab
(14:47):
American boy, and what if I turnthem into something a little
more? Neil Gaiman esque. Alittle more fantasy a little
like these would have these areThe emblematic folklore
creatures of each culture Whatif I turn them into like a girl
Golem, and a boy Genie, I couldpretty immediately see these
(15:08):
two. And they were there. Thewoman was like this tall, like
prim looking woman who looked alittle shy and awkward and
unsure of herself. And the boywas this also tall, sort of
devilishly charismatic lookingGenie, who look okay, might be a
bit of a bad boy. And I waslike, Ooh, okay, what, what am I
(15:31):
going to do with the two of you?
And then it was just from therea process of discovery and trial
and error and being like, okay,where would these two meet?
Where they would meet here inNew York? Where else are they
going to meet? It's it's like,you know, the all the world's
cultures coming together? Well,when would that be? Well, how
about the heyday of immigration?
What about like the late 18,early 1900s, when everyone's
(15:54):
coming through Ellis Island, youknow, all shoved together, I
sort of worked with my curiosityout front, to figure out who
these people were, what theirstory was, and how I was going
to make it work instead ofhaving everything fed to me by
another source. And that made itinteresting to me. And I think
(16:15):
that is, in turn sort of whatmade it interesting on the page.
So I wrote a good, I don't know,15-20 pages, and I brought them
to workshop, my next turn. Andeveryone read it and got back to
me and said, this is better thanwhat you've been doing. So you
know, good on you. But you'rewrong about something. And they
(16:36):
said, No, this isn't a shortstory. This is a novel, and
you've got a big novel here. Andyou really need to figure that
out. And I did not believe them.
I said, you know, this is not anovel, this is this is a thing
that I am doing for fun. Andthen I'm going to get back to
the real stuff, then the storyjust kept getting longer and
longer and longer. And it wouldnot end it was like I was
chasing the horizon. Andfinally, I had to admit that
(16:58):
they were right, and that I hadbid off something huge. And now
I had to figure out how to chewit. And that process took a
number of years, I had toresearch everything from
scratch. Because I knew nothing.
I knew nothing about life in NewYork in the late 19th century
and write the basics of howpeople lived and and, and so on.
And so everything was research.
(17:21):
And and it was a long andgrueling process. Before I had
anything that looked remotelylike a saleable book. And by the
time I did, I'd left New York, Ifinished my program, and we
moved back out here. And, youknow, we had gotten married in
the meantime, and I just keptplugging away at this thing. And
eventually, there was enough andit became a book.
Lady Grey (17:41):
Yeah, well, we are very, very grateful to your
workshop before. No. But I loveyou, as you talked about the
magic and inserting the magicand then finding a setting and
the setting happens to behistorical. So there's it's
historical fiction. And at thesame time, it's also this love
(18:03):
story. And it has, it has allthese beautiful components to it
that I recommend it to everyone.
It is just a fantastic read. Iam really, really looking
forward to the next book. Allright, yeah. Tell us because I
know this has been a long timecoming. Yes, this has been sort
(18:25):
of a labor of love maybe thesecond, the sequel,
Helene (18:31):
The sequel, I should say, first off is called the
hidden palace. And it and it'scoming out in June of next year.
And for a very long time. Thankyou for a very long time, I
thought it was not going tohappen. This is the book that
I've been beating my headagainst for years. Now. I got
the contract for it. The week Iturned 40. And that was five
(18:58):
over five years ago now. And Ithought it was going to be done
in about two years. I'm like, Iknow this thing. I know how to
be a writer. Now. I know how towrite a book. And they tell you
not to do that. They tell youevery book kills you over, you
know, and he puts you right backin the beginner spot. For two
years in grad school. I listento writers say that over and
over again. And there's alwaysthat part of your brain is like
(19:21):
Yeah, but not me. Of course forthem, but not me. I honestly
don't think it's arrogance. It'sthe brain just protecting itself
so that you will actually do thething when when you have to
The book ended up taking a lotlonger than I wanted it to. I
have incredibly patient peoplethat I work with. I have an
(19:43):
agent who is just I couldn't askfor anyone better to represent
me who has to listen to me on myphones sort of on the phone beat
myself up over, you know, as faralong as they want to be. That's
okay. Helene. That's okay. Andthen an editor at HarperCollins,
(20:03):
who basically, at one point justsort of gave me an extra year
and said, okay, you know, I readwhere things are, and they're,
it's good, but let's give youanother year to really nail this
thing down. And I was like, Oh,thank God, you know, this is
this, this is the stuff that notevery writer gets. And, yes, I
(20:24):
have, I have some talent, thereare a lot of people out there
with talent who do not get, youknow, slack cut for them, by the
people around them. And so I amfeeling very, very grateful
about that.
Lady Grey (20:35):
I think it's a testimony to how wonderful the
first book was, and whathappened when you were given the
time and space to really developyour dream of this story. I'm
really looking forward to it.
I'm curious, I have tried myhand at writing, I've gotten two
or three projects startedoutlined, you know, ready to go.
(20:58):
And like you said, they, theyjust lay flat on the page. You
know, I'm sure that there arepeople out there listening to
this right now who havebeautiful stories to tell. And
they have this incrediblemessage to share with the world,
whatever that might be. But, youknow, staying motivated when the
when the writing just doesn'tflow? is I think it's one of the
hardest things. Oh, yeah, I'dlove to hear I'd love to hear
(21:22):
your thoughts on like, how yousort of Jerry rigged the
motivation, like how, whathappens when you just have to
write
Helene (21:31):
that, oh, it's the worst, it is the worst, because
it's like you just every wordstarts to feel like a stone,
like just plod, plod plod. Ithink part of what I try to do
when that happens is to getcurious about why what if I try
(21:52):
writing it from someone else'sperspective? What if I go back
and see if you know, maybe Iveered off course, you know, a
chapter ago that that happens tome Actually, fairly often. If I
feel like something just is notworking on the page, it's not
(22:13):
the fault of whatever ishappening, then I screwed up
somewhere. But somewhere behindme is the wrong turn. So I you
know, go back and try to figureout where that was, is in a can
start to feel like the gameswhere you put a ball in the top
(22:35):
and it sort of goes down andsits like a logic puzzle. And it
can go any number of directions.
And there's like 15 slots in thebottom where the ball can end
up. One of those is where youwant the ball to be. But you
don't necessarily know whichone. And the only way you can
figure out is you get the ballon the bottom and you're like,
Oh, no, I don't like it there.
(22:57):
That's the wrong one. Well backit up a bit. Where can What if I
back it up to here and then dosomething different? Can it go
there? It's this combination oflearning the story as you go
along, and trying to figure outwhat shape the narrative needs
to take. That results in all ofthese tiny little decisions. And
(23:18):
sometimes what it takes is justletting a character do something
completely bizarre to just seewhat everyone else does. Okay,
and that can help you figure outthe characters that can help you
figure out maybe where the backof your mind really does want
the story to go.
There's a woman named ErinMorgenstern. She is a writer who
(23:39):
wrote incredibly popular bookcalled The Night Circus that I
love.
Isn't isn't it? Great?
And it's it's like one of thebooks that if you do the Venn
diagram of writers, you know, ifyou like this book, you'll like
that book, we are books sort ofsometimes end up in the same
pile. And she she wrote thefirst draft during NaNoWriMo,
(24:03):
National Novel Writing Month,years and years ago, she was
writing about it on Twitter, andshe said, often, the Night
Circus gets called out for, youknow, being written during
NaNoWriMo. And she said, whatyou need to know is that, in
that first draft, the draft wasgoing so poorly. And the
characters to me were so boring,that I got desperate and sent
(24:26):
them to a circus. And that ishow the book began. That is,
that was like when the bookreally began. And so I think
sometimes, you have to just dothat. You have to just say,
Okay, look, this is obviouslynot happening the way I want it
to. Maybe there's another way.
And you know, even if it's justthe, you know, you send them to
(24:51):
a circus and then three pageslater, you're like, Okay, well,
that was fun. And now they'reback from the circus. At least
you gotten that little bit of abreak, to maybe let the back of
your brain non something andspit out an answer?
Lady Grey (25:07):
Yeah. So I'm curious how you turn on, like the
magical, outrageous flow ofcreativity in that moment, how
do you get your imagination toreflect back magically on the
page?
Helene (25:22):
I honestly think some of it is cutting yourself some
slack. And we are so hard onourselves, especially for those
of us, you know, when we arewriting in our precious free
moments, and the words aren'tcoming, and it just makes it
that much worse, because of it,that we're like, this is the
hour that I carved out formyself and blood, sweat, and
(25:45):
tears. And now I'm sitting hereand I am hating everything that
I'm writing. And then you'rejust like, it's, it's just not
gonna go anywhere at that point.
Honestly, just back to basics,write some silly stuff, do the
three page brain dump, you know,just writing words without
stopping, even if it's yourthing, elephant over and over
(26:08):
again, for three paragraphs orwhatever it is, just let
yourself let something go.
Because otherwise, we're justwound so tightly, there has to
be a certain looseness, put thetwo things together that weren't
necessarily supposed to betogether, you have to allow
space for that to happen. And Isay that the least loose person
(26:32):
in the world, very tightlywound. But at the same time,
it's it's, there is a certainamount of that in the process.
It's the most confounding part.
But it's also like where a lotof the magic happens.
Lady Grey (26:44):
Well, and it sounds very familiar to me, in my
creative process with with danceor whatever it is that I'm
creating. I have a lot of, youknow, improvisation that I do,
right? And you check it becauseit's just garbage, right,
whatever. But you just keepgoing until you land on an idea.
Sometimes I even have to golooking for inspiration.
Helene (27:05):
No, I think I have a hard time picking books to read
while I'm writing. Because Idon't want to pick something
that is going to bring me farenough out of my mindset that
it's going to sort of end updragging the book along with it.
So I end up reading a lot ofbooks that have a really strong
(27:27):
sense of place, with charactersthat notice details, books that
are complete worlds that someonehas created.
There's a writer named NKJemisin, who wrote a trilogy
where all three books, wonHugo's, and she was the first
person to ever do that threetimes in a row. And the first
(27:49):
book is called Fifth Season. Andit's this world that she
created, where every so oftenevery number of years, there's a
major geological event, and theentire society comes crumbling
down, and they have to restartagain. It's a story about
slavery and inequality andmaking the world right and what
(28:14):
it takes like that the pain andsacrifice that it takes to make
things right, and how damagingit can be to a person. And it's
this insanely good trilogy.
There's so many trilogies thatyou read, and I say this as a
person who has written one bookhas now written a sequel, and
people are asking me if they'regoing to be a third. And there's
so many trilogies you read whereit's like, well, you had a
really good idea for a book,didn't you? You had a really
(28:36):
good idea for one book, and thenthey made you write two more.
This trilogy is not that it justkept getting bigger and better
and Wilder, and you're seeingthe world getting filled in and
everything just taking on somuch more emotional resonance,
the ending was just spectacular.
(28:57):
I sat back from it, I was like,how in the world? Did she write
this? How did she write this?
Without going off and living ina monastery for a decade to do
it? How is she a person in theworld like using social media
and having relationships withher friends? And not you know,
off like Jimi Hendrix and hisguitar, like just, you know,
immersing herself in this thing?
(29:20):
What kind of a mind does thattake? There's a certain amount
of professional jealousy inthere too, of course.
But it's also like, show me howyou did that. It's like
magicians who want to learn eachother's tricks. I'm like, you
put those words together in thatparticular order. And no one has
ever done that before. And howdid you come up on that? That's
(29:44):
what keeps me going in mywriting as sort of inspiration
to to match that to do somethingto write a sentence or a story
or a paragraph that is going tomake a person feel Something
resonant. That to me, I think,is how I get my inspiration
(30:06):
because he get to a certainpoint where like, it's all just
words. It's all words, peoplehave been writing words for
like, years, hasn't someonewritten the sentence before? My
god, this is boring. And thenyou have to like, go and find
something that fills fills thewell back up is like, nope,
nope, nope, writing stillmatters. This is still awesome
stuff that I get to do. And Ijust have to keep at it.
Lady Grey (30:29):
So I feel this deep in my bones when you're talking
about, I feel like it's justlovely to, you know, hear how
other people stay motivated.
Like you have a deadline, right?
And I'm right now I have nodeadlines, because nobody's
performing live. But if you havea deadline, you know, there are
some real kind of tricks thatyou have to almost resort to, to
(30:53):
get yourself back into thatplace where you're like, yeah,
I've got I've got gold, I've gotsomething I really have to get
on the page. I would love tohear and this is maybe, maybe
you're not ready to answer thisquestion. You've got this
beautiful second volume. Uh huh.
That you have written. Andobviously, that's still kind of
in the works. And you you'veyour brain has not left that
(31:14):
your hearts still in the thickof that. Yep. But let's say that
you had all of the time in theworld. And all of the energy and
the unlimited resources, I wouldlove to know, if you have one
passion project, or outrageousdream or some other thing on the
horizon, that maybe we get asneak peek from you,
Helene (31:40):
you know, there's a few that have been in the back of my
mind of what I'm going to dowhen this is all over. So part
of this five year process withwriting the hidden palace was
writing many books that Ithought were this book, but
we're not, I have a lot ofmaterial that was cut entire
(32:03):
subplots and characters andthings that like I spent weeks
researching that then justdisappeared from the book, it's
all still in a file, you know,it's all still on my computer, I
would love to write back to abook of short stories that are
(32:24):
basically everything else thatwas going on. In these other
characters lives, people whodon't even show up on the page.
But while this book is going on,here is also what was going on,
like a universe expansion. Itfeels like a passion project.
And not just like the next bookI'm writing because I did put a
(32:44):
lot of myself into the stuffthat ended up getting taken off
the page completely. I reallywant so much of that was some of
the best stuff. I just want itto be out in the world. I want
it and maybe that's egotistical,but it's like no, I put a lot
into this, I kind of want peopleto see it. Also, I would love to
(33:07):
do a graphic novel, sometime. Ihave no art ability. I can't
draw a stick figure even. Butit's such a different medium to
just have words and picturesjust just to have dialogue and
pictures on a page. And I don'teven know what the story would
be I don't know if it would be,you know, something in this
(33:28):
universe that I'm working in. Orif it would be something
completely different. I wouldlove to do that with some
artists somewhere. Other thanthat, I think my passion project
has been getting this book donefor so long. That that it's you
know, anything looking beyondthat. It's I'm just starting to
(33:49):
do that. Now.
Lady Grey (33:50):
That makes perfect sense to me. Just because it has
been such a huge project. Imean, it really, and probably
all Yeah, having a lot of ways.
So now I want to segue a littlebit. We're gonna call it
Helene's outrageous advice.
Okay. You gave some great adviceearlier to people who are
(34:11):
writing Uh huh. Do you have anyoutrageous advice for people in
general that might not bewriters but are things that you
do either to keep yourselfcreative or juggle your being a
mom or maybe it is simply howyou stock your bar and that's
(34:32):
outrageous. Does something cometo mind? That's outrageous that
you would encourage other peopleto try.
Helene (34:40):
You know, it's funny, you warned me in advance that
this was coming and and i i putsome hard thought into it,
because probably has come acrossthat I'm pretty much a 45 year
old mom and that's I rageousisn't something I think of
myself as but
Lady Grey (34:59):
I am And I totally think you're not only
outrageous, but magical. Okay,okay, welcome to the tribe
Helene (35:05):
good, I have probably out of whack ideas about what
that actually means. But I thinkeveryone should have something
they do some hobby, or pastimeor collection or something that
has no redeeming valuewhatsoever except for the fact
that it makes you happy. Justgoing back to this idea of how
(35:29):
precious Our time is and howover planned we get and how we
especially those of us willkids, it's like every moment has
to be occupied with somethingpurposeful and enriching. And
hopefully multitasking, and avalue add and we've all got our
side hustles and we we get hungup on this like productivity
(35:49):
stuff, I honestly feel we needoutlets that are completely on
enriching mine right now isfountain pens and stationery. So
you know, I was I was, I'vealways been like an office
supply girl. But you know, nowI'm an adult with a credit card.
And, and an internet connection.
And, um, and so, you know, Iwill just go to Etsy and buy
(36:13):
stickers. Like, like, I'm a kidin a candy shop, I actually have
a sticker subscription that Iget every month, I get my happy
mail that's got cute stickers init. But you know, this is this
is cheating just a bit because Ihave a planner. It's like a
paper planner. It's called ahobo Nietzsche that's made by a
Japanese company. And the paperin it is astonishing. It is a
(36:35):
planner. So like I am using itto sort of like plan my days.
And in that sense, it's it isenriching, or productive or
whatever. But it's all an excuseto use my pens, and my stickers
and my washi tape. I write twoparagraphs about the day. That's
basically like what I ate fordinner. And the rest is just
like, Okay, what color stickersShould I put on here and what
(36:57):
should accessorize that with?
And it just makes me so stupidlyhappy. for no other reason that
I'm using my fancy pen in myfancy planner with my fancy
stickers. It's the stupidestthing ever. But it just makes me
so happy.
Lady Grey (37:11):
You know, I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say
there might have been a reason.
such good friends. Yeah. Foryounger. I have a similar
habits. I'll call it. I don'tthink it's a hobby for me.
Helene (37:28):
Is it a hoarding situation? Because that's what
it is starting to turn into overhere.
Lady Grey (37:36):
So it's a running joke in our household? Uh huh.
How many notebooks?
Helene (37:40):
Oh, yeah.
Lady Grey (37:41):
You recall, we had a very dear friend in high school
Jenny, who used to carry arounda pencil pouch with all of Yep,
colored pens in it. About sixmonths ago, I got myself a
little 1930s style one because Ihave so many Evans, that it got
(38:02):
to that point. And I thought Iwas inspired by Jenny. So Jenny,
yep, you know, you arespeaking of shoutouts while
we're on that, so I always liketo ask people if they have an
outrageous fan or somebody thatthey really just want to
recognize and say hey to andthanks for being such an amazing
supporter. guy.
Helene (38:25):
I think what I have to say is thank you, to the moms of
all of my friends. My friends,moms, are the ones who like,
Helene, I am so happy for youthat you put this book out, this
is what my book club is readingand they don't know it yet. They
are aggressively hand selling mybook to their friends. You know,
(38:49):
I'm like, thank God for you, Ilove you all, you know, they
turn up at readings and it'sjust so wonderful. There's also
a guy who read my book when itcame out in 2013. And has read
it every year since I think itwas either that year or soon
after he had a baby girl and heread it to her aloud. And then
(39:10):
he like did the same thefollowing year and and then he
had to stop reading it to herbecause she was getting older
and understanding words and it'snot a book for kids. But but he
still he still sort of pings meevery year I just read your book
again and I'm looking forward towhen you know when my daughter
is old enough to read it herselfand it's just so sweet. And it's
so wonderful to like have thatconnection and you know people
(39:32):
that I sort of see going on andyou know as time passes and
they're still you know fans andand the I can't let them down
this book has to you know, thenext books got to be decent. And
so that was also a good bit ofthe motivation behind not just
dropping the second book intothe garbage. But no, he's a real
(39:52):
sweetheart and and I love I loveall of my readers.
Lady Grey (39:56):
So let's assume that you're going to have some news.
readers, that would be great.
That would be wonderful. Soobviously, they can read your
first book The Golem and theJinni, but then we're looking
for the Hidden Palace in 2021.
But in the meantime, is thereany way that they can kind of
keep track of what you're doing?
Or what you're up to? Shouldthey find you on like Goodreads?
(40:19):
Or do you have a website or, or
Helene (40:22):
my website, my website is woefully
Lady Grey (40:25):
out of date, though
Helene (40:26):
I for now, hold off on the website. You know, if you're
hearing this, like in March ofnext year or so go give
Helenewecker.com a try beforethen it's just going to be here
is what I was doing in 2016.
Until then, the best place tofind me is on Twitter,
@Helenewecker. I am also onInstagram, I think the same
handle or you can just type meinto the search bar. Those two
(40:49):
places I post sporadically. It'swhere I also like respond to
mail or requests or DMS or stufflike that.
Lady Grey (40:59):
And I will drop the links to all these things. So we
talked about a bunch of booksand websites and authors and all
kinds of stuff. So all of thatwill be in the show notes.
Helene (41:07):
Thank you.
Lady Grey (41:08):
Well, it has been a huge pleasure. It's so great to
reconnect with you all.
Helene (41:13):
Thank you very, very much. This has been this has
been awesome.
Lady Grey (41:19):
Well, you are always welcome. Anytime you want to
come back on the show. Thank youso much. And thank you for
teaching us to live a littlemore outrageousl
Well, outrageous friends. It hasbeen my honor and my pleasure to
have you here today. I hope thatyou took away some outrageous
(41:40):
ideas for your own life. If youenjoyed yourself, make sure that
you are subscribed to liveoutrageously with Lady gray on
whatever your podcast app is.
You can also connect with mepersonally on
facebook facebook.com/outraeousladygrey or on Instagr
m at lady.grey. Also be sure toheck out our podcast website at
(42:01):
ww.liveoutrageously.comOnce again, this is Lady Grey
encouraging you to go out andlive outrageously.
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