Episode 105: Actuaries in Entrepreneurship - Part 2 - Live With The Maverick

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to episode one oh five of the Live with
the Maverick podcast. The theme of today's quession is actuaries
and entrepreneurship are two and we are very excited to
have with us our guest Barry Schwarzburg. Barry is executive
director and co founder at Discovery Limited. So welcome Barry.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Tom. That's great to be a fantastic to be on
your podcast and I'll look forward to the conversation.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
I certainly look forward to it as well, and we'd
just love to give you an opportunity to introduce yourself.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah. So, I'm based in Johannesburg, South Africa, and I
am a qualified attri are qualified in the early nineteen
nineties and I've since I qualified, I've been on an
entrepreneurial journey for the last you know, thirty five years

(00:56):
or so. I'm trying to build a phenomenal business which
I've been very fortunate to be part of of Discovery
in so Africa and music spread our wings across the world,
which is also very exciting for us. But I've always been,
i don't know, always been fascinated and sort of motivated

(01:16):
about entrepreneurship and the link between entrepreneurship and you know,
the actual profession. So that's the thing I've sort of
concentrated my energies on and my effort my whole life
is building businesses, not necessarily any managing businesses.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
That's excellent. And one of the reasons, other than just
the fact that you've been successful over the years, that
I wanted to have you on the podcast is through
this brand, through Mapic Actuary, we're trying to encourage actuaries
to take risk and to try different things and to,
like you said, to create businesses that add a lot
of value in the broader society. So that's that's honestly
one of the reasons I'm the most excited to have

(01:54):
you on the podcast and to you know, to talk
about your entrepreneurial journey and to talk about some of
the things that you've done with Discovery and it's it's
respective subsidiaries.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah. You know, I suppose when you when you study
actual science, a lot of people think about managing risk.
You know, what's the whole that's the whole thing about
how to manage financial risk. And I think what it
does is it kind of boxes you into not taking risk. Right,
It's like if you're going to manage us, well, therefore,

(02:26):
don't take any risk. But I think I think it's
about you know, managing it in a in a a
in a smart way. You know, how do you manage
a risk? How do you create something? Because you're not
going to get any return without taking some element of risk.
You know, whether you start an organization or you're working
within an organization, at some point in time, you've got

(02:47):
to take risks. So I just think, like the actual
mindset is, well, if I'm managing risk, don't take it,
you know, And I think I think actually need to
come past that, move past that to trying to actually,
you know, sort of take in a little bit of risk.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
That's a great point, and I think, you know, I've
had a very similar observations. And I think when I
think of risk and what actuaries do, I think there's
a couple of sides. There't there's a downside of risk,
which to your point, I think actuaries spend a lot
of time managing. But then there's that upside. I talk
about harnessing the upside of risk. And depending on where
you sit in the company or a type of actual

(03:22):
where you are, I think actuaries who work in capital
modeling and ERM, I think they probably are the ones
who get a bit closer or of course, if they're
on the you know, the financial track and they're working
on the investment side, I think those actuaries get a
bit more exposure to the upside. But to your point,
a lot of actuaries tend to focus more on managing downsides.
So I think that that's been my observation as to

(03:44):
why you may not see as many actuaries going into
the entrepreneurship and taking risk.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah, although you know, it's kind of different in South
Africa because I think if you don't, if you're not
a self start, you don't care for yourself, nothing's going
to happen. And for you, it's very difficult to to
create a career to be successful in this market without
taking some element of so you tend to find, you know,

(04:10):
sul Afican actors are slightly more entrepreneurial, slightly more involved
in marketing and outgoing, and I tend to attract a
slightly different individual person with theyre say it's a bit
more outgoing personality and more of an extrovert, et cetera.
So I tend to think soul Afican actries are a
different kind of reed, whening, whing whening to willing to,

(04:34):
you know, start new businesses and look at opportunities. I'm
not I'm not painting the picture of the rest of
the world about actuals and the rest of the well,
I'm just saying just so African actuallys tend to have
been a little bit more you know, forward looking and
willing to to try different things.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
I couldn't agree with you more. And I mean not
to throw my own geography under the boss, but in
North America, like I've certainly since learned about South Africa
go when I started speaking to people and actuaries across
the world, And to your point, I think in the
US the actuaries tend to be a bit more classical,
a bit more risk averse, and like you said, South
Africa is certainly an area where there's a lot more

(05:13):
appetite for actuaries to take risk. And I've been very
fortunate to have other actuaries, you know, on the podcast.
We just had Ron Richmond on just a couple of
episodes ago, and we've had a few others as well,
so been just very fortunate to you know, to get
that perspective. But you know, as we think of entrepreneurship

(05:33):
as before we even get into the conversation on that.
You know, you did start your career as an actuary
in product development, which I think is a very exciting area.
So how would you describe your role. I think you
had at least one actuary role at the beginning of
the career. Would you describe that role?

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, so I had. I got a bursary from a
laugh insurance company called Liberty Laugh, which was started by
a famous entrepreneur in So Africa, Donald Gordon. And my
very first job in that organization wasn't a typical actual
or role. And I was there for a couple of months,

(06:10):
and I always had you know, I always wanted to
do something a little bit more interesting, a bit more exciting.
And a friend of mine was leaving product development, sort
of a mentor of mine, a man by the name
of Colin Smith, and he said to me, listen, I'm
leaving this area product development. Why didn't you go into
this area and product development at Liberty Life. And you know,

(06:31):
I grabbed the opportunity with both hands, because in my
mind that's kind of the center of the organization where
things are kind of happening, New ideas are getting developed,
interesting discussions about the link between the marketplace and the company,
how to marry that link and how to get that
link together, how to get develop products for the market,

(06:53):
how to get understanding from the market what they require.
So when Colin was leaving sort of and the reason
why he left Safia is a very typical reason why
people left in those days, because there was conscription to
the army and you didn't want to go into the
army in Safika. So he left Safika went back to
the UK, went to the UK. Actually, so I was

(07:14):
very fortunate to get her to get an opportunity to
go into product development from a typical actual era role
and I just kind of I really enjoyed it because
you know, for me, it was kind of at the heart,
as I said, at the heart of the organization thinking
of new products, you know, heart met in the marketplace.

(07:34):
What did what do distributors think of the product? And
you know, once you developed the product wasn't only about
you know, well it's developed, it's out in the marketplace.
We used to get feedback continuously from agents and brokers
about to listen this is right with the product, this
is wrong with the product, this is what you know,
to change it and tweak it. And I really enjoyed
that interaction as well, just because you know, when you

(07:56):
when you do a lot of product development that's kind
of inward focused process, a lot of work done internally
within the organization, and then you launch it out to
the marketplace, you get a lot of then a lot
of feedback, but a lot of people then just leave
the product as is. We had the view that once
you got it out there, take that feedback immediity and
change and tweak the product. You know, if things aren't working,

(08:18):
something is not working, the products not really meeting the
needs of the marketplace, to take that feedback too heart
and make a few changes and tweak the product and
get it out there again, relaunch it. And you know,
I love that whole interaction, the development of it, the
reading about products and other marketplaces, the pricing of it,

(08:40):
even the you know, creating the systems to run that product.
That was also an interesting part of for me is
actually the new development of it, actually creating something in
the computing systems that can manage this new product. So
every aspect about it the marketing of it. How do
you present the product to the mind pocket, you know,
the branding and the product positioning and so all those aspects.

(09:06):
Was proud of what we did. It was a very
small team, so whilst it was there was obviously pricing
and benefit design. We were involved in the whole element
of it, you know, marketing, distribution, the actual launch of
the product. And at a pretty young age, you know,
we sort of thrust into this area in an organization

(09:28):
with quite a bit of responsibility at a pretty young age.
So I really really enjoyed it. Let me just let
me just mention to you. I had a a person
I was working for and his name was Herschel Mayers
was my boss and actually my co founder, Adrian gors
boss at that point in time, and he set us

(09:51):
down one day, I remember, at lunch at a steakhouse
near we were working. He set to us, listen, ideas
shouldn't filtered down organization. Then you developed those ideas, that's
what you should come out. We give you permission effectively
to come up with your own ideas, read up about
what's going on around the world, and come up with

(10:12):
your own ideas. And it kind of gave us permission
to sort of really do research and development, come up
with new concepts and launch it into the marketplace. And
that kind of that single meeting kind of changed my
life because I felt, listen, I didn't like I wasn't
like subject to the way to the organization. We could

(10:35):
come up with our own ideas, and we actually took
that opportunity. We did develop a product that was very successful.
We launched it the Angst Africa and really sort of
created our career. But the sort of kernel the start
of that idea was from our sort of boss at
that time, giving us permission to be more creative and

(10:57):
take responsibility.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
That's great to hear that you had that the flexibility
and the latitude to come up with your own ideas.
I know, certainly depending on the organization. I can only
speak for the US, especially with larger organizations that have
been around for one hundred plus years, they have a
way of the established way of doing things, and you know,
sometimes oftentimes they're successful, and while there's always room for innovation,

(11:22):
you know, sometimes you can have different, very several layers
of red tape that can you know, hold you back
in terms of being able to actually implement those ideas.
And you know, it's only like you not only had
that latitude, but you had is a very symbiotic fit
with with entrepreneurship. You understood the products, you understood what
the market wanted, you understood the pricing of it, being

(11:43):
able to test and iterate, and you know, and going
through the whole product cycle, would that be a fair assessment?

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Absolutely, the whole thing from idea initiation all the way
to launching the product, also to as I said, managing
the product whilst it's in the marketplace now getting feedback
from the markets, and it's sort of iterating the product.
And that sort of gave Adrian and myself a lot
of confidence to be to say, listen, now, if we

(12:12):
could do it for another organization, ultimately, we could do
it for ourselves, because that's the that sort of initiates
the organization if you've got great product. And I would
say today, even today, you know, thirty forty years later,
so that we're running our own organization, we're really a
product led company. And that's sort of from our early

(12:34):
days of doing product development for another organization. It's really
instilled in us the importance of having an excellent product
that's value for money for the clients and they are
getting you know, they feel they enjoy the product, et cetera.
So that sort of early sort of initiation into product
development for us was sort of key for our career.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
That's that's that's a great, great story. Now, So you
mentioned Easier in a couple of times your business partners
or nainth And needed to you co fund the Discovery
Limited with with your business partner Adrian Gore. And when
I think of entrepreneurial stories, everyone, I oftentimes when I
speak to entrepreneurs, you know, it's not just did they
have an idea, but it could it could happen in

(13:14):
many different ways. In some cases, people had an idea
that the company either didn't want to implement, or perhaps
they were implementing it and they weren't taking a particular angle,
or they discovered a new angle. So when you think
back to when you an Adrian started the Discovery Limited
the early days, what was your motivation for becoming an
entrepreneur and going going out on your own. I definitely

(13:36):
understand that you had that latitude to solve problems within
your organization. So you know, I always asked that question
because actuaries who especially have the credentials and have a
fairly stable career, and in addition to that, you still
had that latitude to innovate. So what, you know, what
gave you that conviction and what was the that catalyst

(13:56):
for becoming an entrepreneur and starting this company with Adrian.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
So a couple of things that sort of coalesced that time.
First of all, we worked for a company, Liberty Life,
that was founded by a very famous entrepreneur in South Africa,
and he was still in the organization when we were there,
so we looked up to him, you know, and he
was a motivating figure for us, an archon for us,

(14:22):
and I suppose we always wanted to follow in his
footsteps and create a company of our own. And then
we worked in product development. That sort of gave us
that confidence to be able to do it on our own.
Certainly the initial parliament organization is creating that product that
you need for the marketplace, so that gave us confidence.

(14:43):
And the third thing, we were studying with someone who
was aware of a dormant life insurance license at another organization,
and he told us that this company is looking for
ideas on how to revive their license. So those kinds
of three things just came together, you know, the sort
of intrinsic motivation at liberty, the confidence in our own abilities,

(15:07):
even though at a pretty young age on mid twenties,
where the kind of confidence because we're doing it, doing
it for a couple of years. And then this opportunity
arose of this organization here in Johannesburger was raand Merchant Bank.
They were looking to revive their license. So all those
three things came together and we went to go see
Ram Merchant Bank and made a pitch to them about,

(15:31):
you know, this is what they should be doing with
their dormant life insurance company. It was a pretty small
company and they wanted to revolve and start doing new business.
So it was kind of also coming together. What they
wanted to do is Ram Merchant Bank and ourselves as
the entrepreneurs coming together to try and revive this company.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Okay, so when you when you started, so it sounded
like like you said, opportunity on the life side. What
was your vision for the company when you first started.
Was it primarily leader to that life and then you
incrementally build it up or did you have a broader
vision to include like several different products lanes our business.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
At first, we always had a sort of building an
iconic company in mind. From day one. We wanted to
build a company that we could be proud of. It's
bigger than any individual, and that people would want to
come be an employed by that company. That was our
clients would want to be you know, we want of

(16:26):
our products and enjoy the products that we developed and
offered to the organ you know, to to the marketplace.
So for us, it was about creating a sort of
an aspirational organization, a big organization. It's aspirational, that's iconic,
et cetera. That's always what we had on top of mind.
We never ever said to ourselves, this is we're going

(16:48):
to be in life insurance or or in health insurance,
or we just wanted obviously in financial services because that
was our background and us you know, and our studies,
but we wanted it to be something that was at
a mind organization and you know, it also made a
difference in society. So that's kind of feeling. We wanted

(17:10):
something that was sort of iconic, ethical, you know, et cetera.
And yeah, that's sort of like the feeling that we
had and actually ran. Merchant Bank also wanted that I
also wanted to create something that was special and not
just take advantage of a short term opportunity, but actually

(17:30):
create something for the long term.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
That's very refreshing to hear when you use the terms
iconic aspirational. When I think of companies in the in
the US, for instance, benefit if I think of companies
ill side of insurance, including tech companies like I think
of a company like Apple, They're always pushing the boundaries
of innovation. You do have certainly have companies like that
that people like knowledge as having those very specific values

(17:54):
and attributes when I think, but when I think of
the financial services world, you know, honestly, I don't have
There's not many companies that immediately come to mind, especially
with insurance, where I can kind of use those kind
of adjectives themselves. So it's refreshing to hear that from
back then. You know, you had, you know, that very
specific vision of it being like you said, iconic aspirational.

(18:17):
You know, that's just very refreshing to hear.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Now.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
In addition to that, you know, were there, like, were
there any areas of the from your experience when you're
at Liberty Life. Were there any areas of the market
that you had seen that you thought were unaddressed untapped
that you thought, okay, well, you know this is an
area as well that we could really go into and
disrupt Or was it more, like you said, just purely

(18:42):
led by the values and ultimately you kind of phoned
those opportunities.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
No. No. So when it actually started at and Rain
Merchant Bank went to revolve this license, everyone was thinking
about a laugh insurance company and inside inside the the
logo of Rare Merchant Bank or Key So we're going
to we're going to call ourselves Key Life, and that
was our original thinking creator Sinky Life, and the first

(19:10):
sort of five or six months of the company's existence,
we were just reviving the license because it was close
to new business. But what happened was Rare Merchant Bank
went and purchased I mean they're a merchant bank. They
went and purchased another life insurance company in Souffoca called
Momentum Life. So they already then created this life insurance company.

(19:32):
So we said we need to pivot out of life
insurance into health insurance. So our success for very successful
product that we had launched at Liberty was a was
a health insurance stated benefit product. It was a fantastic
sold a significant amount of new business and it was

(19:53):
the exceptionally well and that's what we were known for
that product that we developed that we came up our
idea was a stated benefit health insurance policy. So the
central idea that we wanted to do was going into
health insurance, not for individuals but for corporates. So that
was the focus on corporates. And we always had the

(20:14):
feeling of focusing not on supply but on demand, So
focusing on the client, being client focused and demand focused.
Demand led is a very specific reason why in South Africa.
That's the case. And while that really created our success
was focus on demand and not supply. Certainly initially for

(20:36):
the first sort of fifteen twenty years of existence of
our company, we purely focused on demand. So we pivoted
out of life insurance into health insurance. That was what
we had developed at Liberty, So we knew the market
pretty well, we knew what would sell, but the focus
was out of individuals more in towards the corporate health

(20:57):
insurance market and then the focus on as I said
on demand. I can get into that in more detail if.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
You lock sure, sure, that's helpful. Before we get into
I have some very specific questions and the operational model
for discovery. But another observation I had based on a conversation,
is that your business started during the fall of a
very significant period in South Africa's history, during the fall
of apartheid, and that was a time of significant political change.

(21:27):
Now my understanding is that during the time, for instance,
there might have been sanctions against the country which would
have impacted, for instance, relations with other countries.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
It might have.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
Impacted the investment environment, and I imagine that there are
several other impacts as well. So how did you manage
to navigate this turbulent period as an entrepreneur as you're
starting the company in a very consequential period in the
country's history.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Exactly dominic that for us was it kind of a
key to us success. Whilst a lot of people were
concerned not investing right, people were contemplating their future in
the country, whether they should be elsewhere, leave the country,
we saw actually more opportunities whilst there was massive political change.

(22:15):
We thought that if we made a mark, then we
put in an effort then it would pay off multiple
times in the future if and when things came right.
We were confident that things would come right and the
country would become successful and the Rainbow Nation, etc. We
had that belief even though in nineteen ninety two when

(22:36):
we started, it was a very very tough time in
South Africa. It was between the release of Nelson Mandela
and the first democratic elections in nineteen ninety four. It
was a very volatile period in the country. But we
had that belief. We thought, you know that as opposed
to sort of running away from the problem. Now the
time now the opportunity has actually been created, and it

(23:00):
turned out to be the exact right call, because you know,
the country has done well relatively well. I mean from
that data, it's done exceptionally well. You think back to
those days where it could have gone, it's done exceptionally well,
and the market sort of open up and you know,
and went in our direction, and we were sort of
the initiators of that. And you know, even if you

(23:22):
look today, we're one of the largest organizations created since then.
You know, because we were so positive about the country
and the future of the country, we invested and we
still invest today. Significantly in the country. So I think
it was that positive attitude, and it's I kin'd of
for me, it's a lot of the lessons for other
countries that when you go through political turmoil, I think

(23:47):
it's actually the time to invest, It's the time to
get involved in something not always you know, d risk
is actually take a little bit more risk during that time,
because that's when I think significant value is created.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
That that that concept or well, what happened reminds me
of Tony Robbins, the famous motivational speaker. There's a I'm
paraphrasing one time he said, I think he said that
millionaires are made in times of crisis, and he talked
about he documented like you know, during not just a
financial crisis, but during kind of post nine to eleven,
like lots of periods of crises where where there are

(24:24):
problems that entrepreneurs identify that need to be solved. I
think that's a really good reminder that, like you said,
it's not only when things are you know, nice and calm.
It's sometimes just when the most turbulent periods is where
the most opportunities are.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
Right, I mean, taking America right now, a change of
government I'm sure opportunities will be creating. You've got to
have that kind of mindset of looking for as opportunities.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Now, yes, for sure, couldn't agree more. And no, you know,
I'm excited to talk a bit more about Discovery. Discovery Limited,
the company that you can funded with Adrian. So Discovery Limited,
there are no They're known for utilizing an innovative approach
to insurance called the share value sorry to share the
value insurance model. So how would you describe the shared

(25:09):
value insurance model?

Speaker 2 (25:12):
So, as I was saying in the early nineties, when
we were going into health insurance, in creating a health
insurance company, the one thing that we noticed, yeah, as
opposed to the US many other markets, is that there's
an undersupply of doctors and hospitals. And because there's an
undersupply of doctors and hospitals, it's very difficult to make

(25:32):
a market out of doctors and hospitals to go and
offer them volume for a discount. I mean typically in
the US medical management you go into doctors and hospitals
and say, listen, I'm going to send you our volume
as a health insurer, give us a discount. We will
pass a discount onto consumers. That's effectively artworks right. Health
insurance companies are a sort of a buying club in

(25:55):
a way, they aggregators. But it didn't work here because
you go into doctors' offices in Johannesburg and say to listen,
I'll send you volume, please give me a discount. She'll
say to you, listen, my waiting rooms are full. I
don't need extra patients. I've got the patients. So we

(26:16):
couldn't make a market out of doctors and hospitals, et cetera.
So we focused on demand. Rather keep the individual out
the hospital, keep them out of the healthcare system. You know,
it's a lot cheaper the person not going for the
procedure than getting a discount in the procedure. So our
whole thing from the very start of our organization was

(26:38):
we going to focus on the clients, on the consumer,
keep them healthy, and keep them out of the healthcare system.
So it's a very much a demand led model. And
so we came up with a few innovations that it
sort of made our mark and differentiated us and created
this idea of shared value insurance. The first one was

(26:59):
a metadical savings account, so most health insurance systems work
exceptionally well from first dollar coverage, but then they hit limits.
So do we turn it on? It said to say, listen,
we'd rather offer you excellent coverage when you need it,
typical insurance, so higher deductible. Once you hit the deductible,
you have excellence insurance with pretty much no limit. But

(27:22):
at the bottom day to day medical expenses that are
more controllable by the individual. Put that money into a
medical savings account. So we were sort of this actually
idea came under the US. Two individuals, John Goodman and
John Musgrave wrote a book called Patient Power many years back,
and they wrote about a medical savings account. We actually

(27:44):
took that concept and implemented in essay and really turn
the market on and said by saying, listen, there's no
longer first rant or first dollar coverage is a deductible
with insurance above it, and have a savings account for
controllable medical exacs expenses, effectively putting the client in control
of their own day to day medical expenses. So that

(28:05):
was our first innovation. The second innovation was, well, once
you're doing that, you've got to encourage the person to
need a preventative life and as opposed to curative medical expenses,
which are very very expensive. How do you encourage a
person to exercise and eat healthily and go for the
annual screenings and not smoke and less drinking, et cetera.

(28:30):
So we came up well with this concept of putting
it into a system of a preventative system, right, of
making sure that the person focused on preventative ideas and
that type of thing, so encourage them to exercise, eating healthy, etcetera.

(28:50):
And so we created a program called Vitality, and the
whole thing around Vitality was actually incentivize healthy a lily.
So if we incentivize the right to exercise, go for
your daily run or whatever, or your walk five thousand
steps a day, whatever it takes get people active and
get them eating healthy and stopping to smoke, et cetera,

(29:14):
and actually understand their health conditions by going for an
annual screen. So we put this program together called Vitality,
and the whole thing about it was that we wanted
to do it via incentives and rewards. So if you
did exercise, you got some incentives some rewards to do it,
and then you create this virtuous cycle because if the person,

(29:34):
the individual, the client says, listen, I'm happy to go
and do the exercise and follow the program. I'm going
to get the rewards. It's good for me definitely because
me as a client, as an individual, I'm doing something
that's good for my lifestyle, etc. My longevity, my health span.
But it turns out it's good for the insurance company

(29:56):
as well. Damn good because introduce as claims, it has
positive selection, and it has positive on withdrawal on napsation,
it has a you know, this positive selection on napsation
as well, creates this golden portfolio of healthier clients in

(30:17):
the system and claims are lower. So it's very good
for the insurance company. Turns out it's good for society
as well. People are healthier, they're not using the healthcare system,
They less of a burden on the healthcare system. Healthier
people are more productive, they got better positive attitude to life,
et cetera. So it creates this virtual cycle. Now for

(30:39):
us as an insurance company, we're receiving a premium for
that right, so we're receiving a monthly premium from that individual.
And because we're saving money because a person is leading
a healthier life. We can give some of that back
in rewards, so we even enhance the rewards we take
out of our risk savings. As opposed to giving it

(31:01):
back to shareholders, we give it back to clients to
do it even more, Exercise even more, be even more healthier,
et cetera, et cetera. And it creates this virtuous cycle
that it's good for everyone. In our view, they're no losers.
It's good for the client, they're leading a healthier life.
It's good for the insurance company. Their claims ratios are better,

(31:22):
their portfolio business is better, and it's good for society.
And that's what we call shared value insurance. Everyone is
sharing in the value created by a person needing a
healthier life. And the money is coming from a person's
normal premium because they pay that amount of dollars to

(31:42):
another insurance going. They pay to us the same kind
of amount, but with us. Because everyone the portfolio businesses is,
you know, following this healthy practice, is extra money in
the system, so we can enhance the rewards even more.
So that for us is the system called shared value insurance.
And that's what it works exceptionally well only for us

(32:05):
and our view there now users.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
That's a very helpful articulation. And when you talk about
medical savings accounts, certainly in the US we have I
think we have something similar, we call it health savings accounts,
which are more more of the highly deductible plans. But
having said that, even though we do have that here,
I would say this system here it's kind of the opposite.
It's it's focused more on kind of treatment versus prevention.

(32:30):
And I remember we actually just a couple of maybe
a week or two ago, there's a Stanford I think
she's a surgeon of a specialist, came on the Bill
Meher show on HBO and she talked about the fact
that she went to Stanford. She went to Stanford for
what I think eight years, sorry, twelve and a half
years between her undergrad grad, her medical and her specialty,

(32:52):
and she never learned that much about preventative cares well.
It was primarily about just treating illnesses. And I think
that that just speaks to, you know, kind of the
status call when it comes to healthcare. It is very
it's it's very reactive. It's not as proactive. Now that
might be changing today with some of the capabilities our

(33:12):
own like wearables. And it's interesting because it sounds like
you were you guys were really visionary.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
I'm curious to know when you never had the technology
to monitor the things like we have today, like fitbits
and some of those things, Like what was that like
monitoring some of those things back in you know, whether
it was early to mid nineties.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
So that's it's a very interesting point. We launched this,
We launched our medical savings accounts in nineteen ninety three.
When we went live into the marketplace, we launched our
products and our our wellness program or a shade value program.
Vitality only came went live in nineteen ninety seven, so
we had a few years just savings accounts and then

(33:55):
savings account plus the incentive our wellness program. Our whole
thing is that it has to be very fiable. Your
exercise have to be very viable. You can't just self
report because people just thought you're carrying actual error risky.
You've got to make sure that the person actually didn't

(34:17):
do the exercise. So it's very important for us to
make sure that the person didn't do the exercise. So
we do get that information. It's become a lot easier today,
as you said, with wearables, we did in the information
all the time. But in those days, what we did
was we made a deal with our biggest gym chain
in so Africa just called Health and Racket in those days.

(34:37):
It's now Virgin Active, and every time a person went
into a Health and Racket, they swiped and we got
that information the person went in and how long they
had to swipe when they're going in and going out,
So they couldn't just go there and sit and have
a juice or whatever, a cup of coffee. They had
to go there and exercise, so we made sure they

(35:00):
it was a minimum times. Sure if a person wanted
to cheat and just go for a cup of coffee
and sit there for half an hour, quite difficult, but
then they had to swipe on the way out there
and we knew how long they were in the gym,
so we got that information. So it was a verifiable
transaction for us. The annual screenings were always verifiable because
in the main we actually managed that. So we went

(35:21):
to the corporates with nurses and that type of thing
to do your annual screens and we capture that information
blood pressure, heart and weight. You know, we did some
basic blood tests like cholesterol screenings, etc. So we just
did the basics for a screening service, which is which

(35:42):
is pretty good because people weren't having that, but we
managed that in the main, so we got that information
where we outsourced it, we made sure that we actually
got that verifiable information. And then with diet, we had
a relationship with a large wholesale, a large supermarket against Africa,

(36:03):
and they gave us the actual information when a person
ate bought so No. Eight bought healthy food. So we
went through their full list of every single antem in
their store and we determined which is healthy and which
is not, and we got the information on when they
were buying healthy food, and we incentivized them to buy
healthy food on the understanding that if you're buying healthy food,

(36:26):
typically you're going to eat it. You're not going to
bite and RENI go to waste. So we made sure
that in the basket of goods people actually getting healthy goods.
Healthy food. Non smoking is pretty easy. You could do
a coaching in test which we did to determine on smoking,
which is a very very important aspect for healthy living.

(36:48):
So yeah, so we made sure we got verifiable information
to make the program robust.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yeah, that sounds like it was very robust. You had
some reliable partners, and it was a very thoughtful, methodical approach.
So if I were to think of how discovery, how
your approach approved on previous approaches to insurance, sounds like
not just with the healthy lifestyle, with incentivizing more healthy
lifestyle to reduce the risk of any incidents who should

(37:17):
lead to claims, but also putting some of the control
I guess or the incentives into the hands of the insurance,
which I guess ultimately would be a benefit to the
insurance company. So anything else that I'm missing there in
terms of the benefits and of course a broader benefit
to society of having a kind of a healthier You know, if.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
You look at from a higher level, risk has really
changed from infectious diseases our parents age, our grandparents suffered
from more infectious diseases. Today we suffer from diseases of
life style. So risk has really become behavioral. Our behavior
impacts our risk, and I think typical health insurance companies,

(38:01):
health insurance companies, property and casualty haven't cotton onto this
idea risk is behavioral. If you want to manage the risk,
try and incentivize better behavior. That is a fundamental changes shift,
a mind shift that insurance companies are not just about

(38:22):
understanding the risk and pricing the risk. It's about changing
the helping change that person's behavior, incentivizing them to lead
proper better behavior, which is good for them and good
for the insurance company. Once you have that mind shift,
oh well, listen, risk is behavioral, the entire business changes
because now you have to put a program in place.

(38:45):
You have to monitor the individual. They have to monitor,
they have to be willing to provide your information of
how any risk that they're undertaking. Now, if you look
at any financial services products, behavioral, right. Certainly for life insurance,
it's most risk is behavioral because as I said, it's

(39:06):
diseases of lifestyle. For health insurance it's similar, it's all
behavior or risk, and if you can help that person
need a healthier life, they improve their behavior. But for
motor insurance, it's equally about behavior. Typically, insurance companies underwrite
the motivehicle about it. When you've last had a claim.

(39:27):
Your claim is history, how old you are, where you
park your motive vehicle at night, which roads you drive on,
your distance of driving. That's typically how you underwrite motor insurance,
and it's a sort of a once off view of
that individual. Our view is completely different. Our view is
how does the person actually drive the motor vehicle. You

(39:50):
can be a person, you know, just get your license
and drive it perfectly. Well, why should you pay an
extra premium because you simply because you inexperienced drive or
perceived to be an experience because you just got your license.
You could be a very very good driver. So what
we do is we monitor a person's driving behavior. So

(40:10):
and once you do that, once you get involved in
understanding the person's behavior and trying to incentivize improvement of it,
it changes your relationship with your clients. You're about involvement
in your client. Encourage them to lead a health their life,
encourage them to drive better. Even for banking, it works

(40:30):
for banking because a lot of bad debts is also behavioral.
If you can change a person's behavior that they save
that they have insurance that they you know, don't have
debt short term and long term, or manage the short
term and long term debt that they say for retirement,
that indicates to us as a company that your behavior

(40:52):
is right for managing your finances, even for retirement funding,
it's all behavioral. When do you find, when do you
invest at? What age do you withdraw before retirement? When
you're in retirement, how much do you withdraw? That's all
behavioral aspects. So if you could do that, if you
can manage that, not manage it, but encourage a person

(41:14):
to leader a better life, a healthier life, drive bet
to say, be more prudent about their money. It impacts
on risk, and that for me is the change in
financial services, and that's where we've made a difference, and
it's that idea is kind of matured over time, but
it's this realization that risk is behavioral.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
That's I'm glad that you also mentioned property and casualty
as well, because certainly, and the motor example, telematics in
the US certainly has had there's been an optic in
the focus on telematics and like you said, capturing driver
behavior and be able to be able to price on that.
So that's certainly something that's becoming a lot more mainstream

(41:56):
know and couldn't agree with you more that I think
that's a more intelligent and approach towards and also on
the homeowner's side IoT devices which are capturing conditions of
the home, you know, which may indicate in advanced the
likelihood of a claim as well. So we're definitely seeing
a shift, you know, certainly on this side as well
with regards to those lines of business. Now, you know

(42:21):
you talked about that. From what I'm getting from the conversation,
that that whole mindset of that behavior. I was going
to ask you, you know that I was going to
mention that Discovery Limited help to shape the South African
insurance and financial services landscape, and you know, ask you
what the company's most consequential contributions were. And one I

(42:42):
think you started to answer the question you talked about
that that shift to having adapting that behavioral mindset and
that more of a proactive mindset versus reactive. Anything else
that you can think of in terms of your contributions
in terms of the company helping to shape the insurance
and financial services landscape.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, because once you once you start incentivizing better behavior,
you know, it becomes kind of you know, viral in
a way. For example, I mean here in so Africa,
I mean, because we're quite a big market share today,
A lot of people are on our wellness program, so

(43:21):
often you people exercising for their vitality points and I'll
take the stairs instead of the elevator or escalator whatever,
I'll you know, it's become part of who we are
in South Africa and you know the exercise. I mean,
it is a country where the sunshine, so people are

(43:42):
kind of a lot of people are outdoors and exercising
in any case, but it's become part of that, become
part of the culture and you know, driving better and
et cetera. You know, people I think are more aware
and you know, understand their own behavior and how to
improve it. And we work with the largest organizations around
the world. Once we had developed this program in South

(44:04):
Africa and it was such a success, yeah, we took
the idea to other markets and we've worked with the
best and the largest insurance companies around the world and
how to think about their organization and change it from
this very transactional insurance bass to more a focus on
the consumer and trying to impact their consumer. And as

(44:27):
I said, once you make that in mind shift, it
changes everything in your organization, changes your vision of our
company or your purpose. I mean our purpose is about
making people healthier, right, So we are focusing purely on
the consumer, so we're trying to influence these organizations also
just focus on the consumer leading, let them leader, you know,
trying to get them to lead a healthier life. So

(44:50):
and all the aspects around the program we've learned over
tens of years now were going to other insurance markets
and implementing it worth companies and other markets with great success.
We've done it in the UK under our own license,
but we've now in other markets worked with insurance companies

(45:11):
and you know the best of the best and worked
with them and utilizing our experience, our know how that
we've learned, our data that we've got and you know
just how to actually do this because once you go
along this path, you've got to be all in as
an organization. You got to your distribution's got to be different,
your training of your agents and your brocus has got

(45:32):
to be different. Your way you manage everything, your claims,
your think, everything, your marketing has got to change because
now you've focused on not about this protection but about
behavior change. It's a very positive message. Needing a healthier life,
driving better these things are very very positive messages. And
what we've done over the years is worked with, as

(45:54):
I said, the very best insurance companies to try and
get them to think along these line. And you know
a lot of companies are sort of our partners that
we work with, have really taken this on board and
sort of run it on their own. You know, they now,
you know, running it and doing an exceptional job in
their markets, following the same kind of philosophy.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
That's that's great to hear. Now when when when we
think of companies, Uh, you know, you and Asia and
co found this company. I'm curious to know based on
your Indian and I know you've had different roles in
a company across a broad umbrella of the company itself,
you know, from an individual perspective, I know each leader
had something very specific and very unique. So how have

(46:39):
you individually helped to contribute to the success of the
company as an entrepreneurial executive? Like what individually would you
say you brought to the table?

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yeah? Look, I really do enjoy what our purpose as
an organization are believing in my own life about leading
a healthier life. And you know, so I really enjoy
you know, our vision, our spire it and I you know,
our line must my own personal life with what we're
trying to do as an organization. That's the first thing.

(47:08):
So you know, it really does align with what you
I am as an individual. But also I've enjoyed every
aspect of it. You know, my role is more. I've
always enjoyed the sort of starting phase of the businesses,
so seeking out those opportunities using our model, our business

(47:30):
model that we've developed and using it and finding new
opportunities with it. I've really enjoyed that part of it.
I've also been involved in running businesses for a while,
but my main focus has always been sort of moving
from an entrepreneur to an entrepreneur right, which has been
entrepreneur within the organization. I think it's a It's something

(47:52):
that's kind of underrated, you know, because once you once
you've built an organization, the assets that you've got are
just enormous. First of all, you actually got assets, You've
got a great balance sheet. The people you work with
are amazing. I mean, you just work with the most special,
amazing people who believe in the business model, believe in

(48:13):
the organization and the purpose, have got years and years
of experience to work with them. To do this and
to build it elsewhere. It has just been an absolute privilege.
I mean, and then you've got companies that are approaching
us all the time with opportunity, so to use the
assets that you've built and developed and the thinking that
we've done, and to try and leverage it in a

(48:35):
way and you know, create and build on those success stories.
Our view has always been, once you get to certain success,
use that as the leverage point for the next opportunity.
You know, we don't. I mean, I think one if
one had to look at our organization, one can always

(48:56):
accuse us. Listen, you haven't been as focused as you
should have been over the year. We have had to
focus more and more over the years because there've been
opportunity led to a certain extent. But in our view
is once you've got to a success is or can
I use this base something that we've built for something else.
So for example, when we started out we are only

(49:18):
a health insurer. Then we said, listen, we've got all
this information about the individual they're leading a healthier life.
What's the next product that we can offer them that
makes sense to that individual given they're encouraging a healthy life.
That was to get into life insurance. And then once
this model is working for health and life insurance, sure

(49:38):
little can work for motor insurance, for property and casualty,
So we went along that route. And then once it's
working in all three of those, can work in banking,
in transactional banking. So we've developed a bank. Once it's
working in this market, can and work in other markets.
So we haven't been a merger acquisition type. We've never

(49:59):
built our business by mergers and acquisitions. We are organic
driven business, marketing our products, convincing our clients that this
is the right product, enjoying our interaction with our clients,
making sure that once they're on the product, they enjoy
utilizing it. And so for us, it's about taking this
RP that we've developed with such care and we've seen

(50:22):
it to work so well in this market and utilizing
it elsewhere growing those opportunities. And my personal challenge has
always been as growing as fast as the organization. I
know some you know, well known entrepreneurs, they can scale
their business exceptionally well and they able to scover. For me,
that was my biggest challenges, the ability to grow as

(50:44):
fast as the company was growing and to be able
to continue to be a sort of an entrepreneur within
the organization as the company scales, because just think about
it once. When you're smaller, to do a new thing
is it's very exciting and creates very kind of immediately.
But when you lodge and you you know, you've got

(51:04):
several things, they're all successful, the next best thing is
going to make a difference. The sort of level of
success for their next idea has got to be far greater.
If you understand I'm saying to you, which when you're
starting out, the level of success the next best thing's
got to be you know, just marginal to make a difference.
So now the heat is on. Well listen, if you've

(51:25):
done the successfully, how do we grow the businesses? And
I think that's been the challenge is to grow as
fast as the company has grown. For me personally, that's
been my challenge.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
No, no, So you mentioned scalability as a challenge in
terms of like you said some of that that those
challenges with growth, would you say from an answer entrepreneurship
of course, as we know, is not a straight and
narrow path. And you mentioned that issue or the challenge
of scalability, did you have any other notable challenges, anything
around market adoption, getting funding, anything else that entrepreneurs challenges

(51:59):
that would we typically have, or any other that we
haven't mentioned, so we listen.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
We were pretty successful quite early on in our organization.
So our focus, our issue has been I would say
they have been two or three areas where I think,
you know, we've had challenges. One has been focused because,
as I said, we were opportunity to let on one stage,
we're doing too many things, and I think that is
that we've tightened up the debt over the last four

(52:26):
or five years. I've actually got a credit agent for that.
He's really got us more focused as an organization over
the last four or five years. The one area we
had difficulty was actually in the US market, very very
difficult for us to have entered the US market. We
were in two thousand. We entered the US market sort
of eight years after our establishment and South Africa. These

(52:48):
two young entrepreneurs thought we could take on the health
insurance market in the US. The toughest market is and
we're I mean, we established ourselves in Chicago and Illinois,
and you know, for the first three or four years
we were operating there, under the brand name Destiny Health.
We're doing quite well. The largest player in there, Blue

(53:11):
Cross Illinois. I mean, we were very small, not on
the radar, but they wanted to get market shared, so
they dropped prices at one stage, and we couldn't just
handle it anymore. The price in the marketplace is just
too low and our positive risk selection through the Vitality
program didn't, unfortunately deal with that differentiation. We couldn't get

(53:33):
that our prices to that level, so we had to
exit the marketplace. That was a very difficult time for
us exiting that health insurance marketplace in the US, although
we did pivot to create just running the wellness program
in the US, which we still do today, So that
was I would say our biggest difficulty and lesson for us.
Our biggest challenge was entering the US market. We now

(53:58):
today in forty two markets are on the globe. We're
still in the US successfully. We work with health a
laughe insurance company like John Hancock and Manu laugh in
Canada for example, with health insurance companies today in that
market and other success of markets first of the UK
and China. But certainly our lessons that we learned in

(54:21):
the US, I think, whilst difficult during that period, it's
really put us in state on how to grow our
way into other markets.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yeah, and you know, when I think of what you
said with the US, I remember the first company I
worked for. One of the things I learned is when
you think of business sometimes people think that like when
you talk about a global expansion, people think of just
like planting flags. I remember the analogy with the CEO
of the first company I worked at. He said that
we're not just planting flags in countries. We look at

(54:50):
everything strategically and where it makes sense. So, you know,
I don't think it's necessarily a failure if it didn't
work out at first. To your point, I mean, you've
had success in other areas and you're still uperating there,
just maybe and a slightly different capacity. So yeah, No,
as you reflect on your career, you've been an entrepreneur
for a very long time. That's a couple of things, like,

(55:11):
you know what there are some things that you think
it takes to be a successful entrepreneur, And you know,
do you have any regrets, any things you would have
done differently knowing what you know now?

Speaker 2 (55:19):
Listen, I've had a fantastic time with I really enjoyed it.
As I said, the sort of special things for me,
the people I work with have been phenomenal. I've really
enjoyed it. I mean a lot of the people that
I'm associated with and work with on a daily data basis,
I've been working with them for decades and we get
on well, and we run the business I think for

(55:40):
the benefit of the organization and for the stakeholders and
all that kind of thing. But I really enjoy the
people I work with. I enjoy what we do as
an organization, you know, making a difference and that type
of thing. So so it's been an absolute pleasure for me.
I always, you know, I've always had this added the
positive attitude. I know, you know, business has its challenges

(56:05):
and all that kind of thing. I've loved that opportunity.
I've loved that sort of that risk taking and getting
it right for me that part of the business the
first four or five years, and all businesses go through
a tough time and I don't know, maybe there are
few entrepreneurs that started and had immediate success. I don't know.
I've never had an overnight success. There's been a lot

(56:26):
of hard work, and I've loved that process. Trying to
work that out for me is the most enjoyable part
of business, trying to get that key. And once you
establish a company, it always goes to a tough time.
You know, you can't get sales, the pricing is wrong,
the marketing doesn't meet the marketplace, the whatever, et cetera.

(56:46):
You go through a tough time after you start. The
launch is great and everyone's excited off the launch, and
you go through a time where, oh, you need to
adapt and change things. You know, for me, that process,
that part of it, not the ideation. I love the ideation,
but that's for me. That process once you've launched, to
get it to scale and to get it to success

(57:08):
is the most exciting time in your businesses existence, and
people need to enjoy it and embrace. I know that
part is extremely tough. You know, you know things aren't working.
Hard while they're not working, is you're pricing right? Have
you got this? Trying different things? And it's those people
who try get and get the feedback from the marketplace

(57:31):
and take that marketplace feedback. Damn Seriously. I find a
lot of entrepreneurs they launch a product into the marketplace
and there's a kind of arrogance. Listen, I know what
the product should be in the clients. Whatever their feedback,
well they they need to adapt. I don't need to adapt.
But listen, you've got to take the feedback exception. You know,

(57:53):
clearly and quickly and seriously. You know, whether it's from
your distributors or from your client. Take that feedback and
change your product and adapt because the essence of the
idea is great. People love the idea, but you might
just be missing the market slightly. And for me, that

(58:14):
process was the most enjoyable time in a business. And
I love that. And as I said to you, Dominique,
the once you've built the business and things are successful,
et cetera, what I also enjoy is how to leverage it,
utilizing the assets that you built, and to say, what
can we do next to this? What can we grow now?

(58:35):
Where are the opportunities given what we've got? And there's
always something missing, you know, I'm saying, there's always an
opportunity interning things aren't working exactly right here things are?
Is how to hone this business better and better all
the time, and that was that process I also enjoyed.
So that's already all about. For me is that that
idea of continuous improvement and trying to get it right

(58:58):
for the marketplace. And sometimes do you realize when you've
taken it for a listen, I've tried everything, you've tried anything,
it's just not going to work. Then you got to
act quickly to shut it down because this thing just
simply whatever you try, you know, it's just there's just
no marketplace, there's no future in it. And we've we've
gone down that as well. When you're doing a lot

(59:19):
of entrepreneurial stuff, that phase is enjoyable and trying to
get it right, but sometimes you realize no matter what
you do, it ain't happening. Then you've got to act
quickly and cut your losses as quickly as possible. That
part of it. You know, it's hard, all these things are,
but it's actually that's the for me, that part of

(59:41):
the journey I find very exciting and enjoyable.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
Barriy, that's a really important reminder because in an OKAM
oriented society where people want instant gratification, it's important to
remember the love of the having, the love for the
process and the iteration and figuring things out. I think
that's often last down people in today's world when when
we live in this instant gratification society. I think that's
a really important reminder.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Yeah, listen, for entrepreneurs, it's no instant gratification. It's years
and years of hard work. You know, you realize if
you want to get the entrepreneurial route, you you know
you are. You're on a on a it's not a
nine to five job. You know, a nine to five job,
and you know you can forget about it when you

(01:00:26):
get home. It's it's continuous. But that's you know, you
got to enjoy it. You got to say, listen, I
love that part of the business. It's not for me.
It's not like business is different to my life. I
just I really enjoy it, you know, and I get
a throat out of it and working with the people.
That's that's where it comes from. And and yeah, for me,
it is about the process. Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
And in closing, just want to ask, you know, does
it take back to the actual community out of actuaries
and risk professionals be watching you? What what areas that
you talked earlier in the in the episode about some
of the areas that were actualis and so Africa have
gone into. So what areas are you for c actuaries,
you know, getting involved with going forward like knowing you're
having your understanding of the economic environment today.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
So listen. First of all, we employ a lot of
actualies within Discovery, and you know they're working in different areas.
Obviously life insurance and health insurance, properly, in casualty banking.
We've got some actries in banking. They're doing exceptionally well.
So I think actuals are moving into different areas within
financial services, not just the traditional laugh pension funds, et cetera,

(01:01:35):
et cetera, so different product, different lines of business. Secondly,
they're moving out of the traditional roles into product development
into marketing. We call it technical marketing, so it's marketing
with with with some sort of mathematical bent or some
you know, insight. The best people to do that are

(01:01:56):
actually listen, this is working because this is this reason,
these are the solutions for you. So actually is getting
involved in marketing and sales. It's done wonders for us
that they you know that you get the smart people
out in front of the clients. People, you know, both
they understand actual science and they deal well with people,
so they they're very good in the sales environment, certainly

(01:02:16):
back in upper salesforce. They're getting involved in data science.
A lot of people get involved in that, maybe not
the real technical workers, you know, you need deep data
science expertise, but the application of it for actual science
for the insurance company, et cetera. What's the managing insurance companies.
I find the best people to manage an insurance company,

(01:02:38):
and people come from that sort of technical background, certainly,
those worth the ability to deal with people and the
outgoing et cetera. Those actuales are excellent in general management
in insurance companies, in financial services, and yeah's afvocate also
investment management. We've had actuals going to investment management. So

(01:03:01):
I think, you know, it's kind of seen more broadly,
and so Africa. Actuals play a far broader role here
and have been very very successful. A lot of I mean,
you know, I think your sort of brighter kids at
school have tended to go into sort of actual science,
you know, more and more over time. But they are

(01:03:22):
finding places for themselves not only in the traditional roles,
and I think in the aligned or aligned roles. And
I think they've done they've done well and they can
you know, they got great capabilities to understand the how
to manage the risk and the finances and you know
the long term nature of it. And I think those
kinds of skills are so vital for sort of anything

(01:03:44):
we've got actions. Yeah, getting involved in energy trading because
you've got to manage supply and demand and put those
things together. Not so easy to do that over the
long term. How do you do that? How do you
manage it making sure that there's electricity available for that
the morning on game basis? You need that kind of
mindset and I think actuallys bring that to the table.

(01:04:06):
So I think ACTUALS can play a role across financial
services a lot different types of risks, et cetera. And
that's what's really been exciting in Africa that you know,
actual science has quite a broad career.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
Yeah, that's an important reminder that actualis going to do
a lot more than simply you know what we've historically
done in the insurance marketplace, especially in places outside of
South Africa. Now, in closing, very if you were to
leave aspiring entrepreneur entrepreneurs with one tip, so one tip
for the next generation of a spiring entrepreneurs. What would
it be now?

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
The one thing for me is to take a little
bit more, put yourself out there. You know, if you're
feeling listen, for us, we were twenty six and twenty
seven we started Discovery. We're young, and we felt go
go for it. Put you yourself. It doesn't mean you
have to take inordinate amount of risk. You know, you're

(01:05:03):
not putting your money on black or red at on
a casino. You it's calculated risk. It's a risk that
you can understand as an actory. So for me, it's
about going for It's about doing it, because the worst
thing is regret that you never went out and did
something on your own, or you never take took a chance,
even internally, if you're working for a large organization, you

(01:05:25):
do something internal. Take that risk, add that value because
you've got some people got so much value to add.
But you you got to you got to be winning
to go for it and winning. You know, oftentimes I've
been told, listen, that's a rubbish idea, it will never work.
You've got to be able to take that, take the no,
take the rejection, et cetera. You know, if you want

(01:05:45):
to put yourself out there, you know, So what you
take a bit of the rejection, if you do it
many times, ultimately something will happen for you. So for me,
it's about, you know, just pushing the envelope a little
bit more. Don't just sit back in your comfort zone,
et cetera, et cetera. Because laugh for me, I mean
those people said verue, But for me, if you really

(01:06:07):
want to elevate your career, et cetera, you guys got
to put yourself out in. For me, that's the advanced
argue actress. Given the skill set you've got, given their capabilities,
take advantage of it and you know it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
Certainly that point resonates on that the pain of regret
and nothing worse than having the regret. And I think
it's a great time for people to take risk, whether
you're in actuary or not, you know, and to become
an entrepreneuri As you said, it's a very challenging journey.
But if you like to solve problems and you know
you're committed to the process and not just the outcome,

(01:06:45):
then I think there's a lot you can accomplish.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
So just for me, for me, it's been so rewarding.
That's the main thing. It's been a lot of reward.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
Yes, I can I can see, and you know, Barry
just want to thank you so much for your time.
I know it's very precious, and you know, the goal
was was really to not just to speak about your career,
but hopefully to inspire that next generation of actuary rich
professionals who may want to pursue entrepreneurship. So I'm very
much looking forward to sharing this with the community. And again,

(01:07:16):
just it was it's been a pleasure to meet you
and collaborate with you on this and I hope that
we do keep in touch and like I said, looking
forward to sharing this with the community.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Dominic. It's been great. Thanks for the opportunity for inviting
me onto your podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Thank you, it was my pleasure. Thank you so much, Barry,
have a good one, Take care,

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Episode 105: Actuaries in Entrepreneurship - Part 2

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 105: Actuaries in Entrepreneurship - Part 2