Episode 98: Quantitative Professionals

My guest for Episode 98 is Cathy Lyn, FIA, FSA, IFoA Council Member and Retired Actuary.

The theme for the episode is 𝗤𝘂𝗮𝗻𝘁𝗶𝘁𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗣𝗿𝗼𝗳𝗲𝘀𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹𝘀.

Cathy and I explore the following topics:⁣

✅ Running for IFoA Council and what she seeks to contribute
✅ Nurturing a competitive quantitative workforce
✅ The importance of mathematical rigor in society
✅ Why quantitative professionals need to have a seat at the table
✅ How quantitative professionals make countries more competitive 
✅ How actuaries and engineers can work together to develop systems
✅ Quantitative opportunities in housing, transportation, and agriculture
✅ Changing societal attitudes towards paying for competency
✅ Closing educational gaps in developing a quantitative workforce 
✅ The importance of industry-academia collaboration for quants
✅ The importance of mentorship and professional networks for quants

If you want to understand how quantitative professionals make a difference in society, you want to listen to this.

My Website: maverickactuary.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to episode ninety eight of Live with the Maverick.
My name is dominic Lee Her. The theme for today's
episode is quantitative Professionals, and I'm very excited to have
Kathy Lynn. Kathy's a distinguished actuary in Jamaica. She's very
active in the actual community and recently got elected to
the IFoA Council.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
So welcome Kathy. Good to see you.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
Thank you, Dominique. I'm very pleased to be here. You
and I have talked for quite a few years and
it's good to have this interview now.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yes, it feels like a full circle moment. And always
have to mention fellow Jamaica. So I know Kathy from back.
I know Kathy from probably from before she can remember
when I went to the University of West Indy. Is
probably one of the dinners, the Actuaryal Science Club dinners.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
I think we might have spoken about that in the past.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
True, that's one of all connections.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yes, and you know we'll get into the Caribbean a bit.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
I know you're very passionate about the region, of course
that we both are from. But persons love to give
you an opportunity to introduce yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
Yes, dom here I will tell the audience and develop
my diverse quantitative background. In my high school days, the
main highlights were exhibits at the Science Exhibition and being
captain of the first Schools Challenge series in nineteen sixty
nine when Saint Hugh's one an all girls' school and

(01:30):
has not won since then. Answering the questions on mathematics
and since were my specialty from early school days. I
started my career as an actual assistant with a leading
firm of consulting actors in England and they and others
have roomed me to be the actress I have become today.

(01:52):
Most of my work has been in consulting in the
retirement practice. However, I have a good appreciation of the
many industries actress can be useful in building financial systems
for communities. To become a Fellow of the Institute of
Actress in the UK, my quantitative training reached a high

(02:13):
degree of rigor within a legislative framework, an increased regulatory
environment sensitive to economic conditions and accounting standards. That is
how most of us tend to work. This is a
small profession, with only about one hundred thousand actress in
the world and our image is built on high performance,

(02:36):
rigorous quantitative work. Various actress spotted and approached me along
the way, and these opportunities meant I began to develop
organizational development skills factoral association functions. The UK Actoral Foundation
Board of Trustees representing the IFO Council is the most

(03:00):
recent appointment announced September twenty twenty four. Other positions I
have held are the Society of Actress International Section Council
two thousand and three, Editor of the SOOA International News
two thousand and four I believe, and the SA ACTOR

(03:21):
in two thousand and five. The Caribin Natural Association President
two thousand and nine to twenty eleven. That position really
stretched me to building associations and we managed during that
time to become a full member association of the International
Actural Association, and this led me to serve on several

(03:45):
committees as well as the International Conquest of Actress, the
IAA section International Association of Consulting Artress Chair twenty sixteen
to twenty eighteen, the ia Section Financial Risk R and
Board and highlights. As I mentioned before, was approving the

(04:10):
CAA eight as a full member association, building up the
CIA as an association to nurtures members who in turn
invest in your association, setting up actual standards in the region,
making contact with Caribbean regulators and industry, and recently as

(04:31):
founder of the Diversity of the World series. Hand over
to you now, Dominique.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
Excellent. Yeah, thanks for that background.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
One thing that I have to ask because a Jamaica
fellow Jamaican, is you talked about the School Challenge series?
Is that the Was that the original version of school
What School Challenge Quiz is today? Is it the same series?

Speaker 3 (04:53):
Yes, it is, and it has been going fifty years
now since nineteen sixty nine. They celebrated their fiftieth anniversary
in twenty nineteen.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
And you were on the winning teams. Was it the
first winning team you were on?

Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yes, and they were so surprised to find me again
after fifty years. They were skilled because it was hard
to find lots of people.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
Are there any Are there any images or videos from
from that time?

Speaker 3 (05:24):
Yes, and they TVJ celebrated it. So I think if
you go in on a TVJ website there are excerpts
or you know, they lost a lot of the taps
when what was it? JMI CTV was disbanded and that

(05:50):
is really sad. But I think they in the celebrations,
they brought out as many photographs and descriptions from people
who were there at the time. So that is on
tv J website and also there's an interview of me

(06:12):
on wi fi Ellington on profile as well.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, you did actually share that with me, so that
that's actually I remember that for sure. One thing that
you mentioned in your response, you talked about your passion
for ear least it came out. You may not have
explicitly mentioned it, but all of the volunteer work that
you've done within the actuarial profession. And I also I
also just mentioned that you recently got elected to IFoA council.

(06:40):
So what inspired you to run in the first place?
What inspired you to run VIFOA council.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
That came about as a bit of surprise even to me,
because of member of council thought that she should persuade
me to run in the elections. Yes, and my what
you call it incentive to take on this opportunity is

(07:09):
that many altrial associations face serious challenges. Many of them
justifind that they can maintain or get the high performance
image by becoming a company. In fact, we should really
be operating as professional associations nurturing a competitive arteral workforce
worldwide as quantitative professionals are essential for deeper insight for

(07:33):
better decision making, and I think that is what will
come out more as we do this interview. You had
asked me sometimes what am I hoping to contribute during
the term of office, and the IFO is a larger
association with about thirty three thousand members with a talented

(07:54):
natural diversity. I should contribute to unlocking and harnessing that
energy so that all the IFOI functions and stakeholders nurture
that workforce with competence and integrity. A council with this
purpose is a force to be reckoned with.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
That's great and something I'm picking up on which you
mentioned a few times both in this conversation and before,
is importance of nurturing a competitive workforce as quantitative or
nurturing a competitive quantitative workforce, And you talked about the
importance of competence and integrity, which is synonymous I think
with the actuary profession.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Anyone would know.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
And when we take a step back and look at
what I think is interesting and what I'm doing with
my brand is it started, of course thinking of actuaries,
but when we take a step back and look at
quantitative professionals and not limited to actuaries, anyone who's quantitative
in nature, whether you're in you know, whether you're in
private equity, whether you're in biostatistics, whether you're in engineering.

(08:56):
I think that's a really critical point that you made
when you talk about deeper insights for better decision making.
I think that's that is where I see I personally
see the value.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
So I'm excited to get.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Into the conversation and start and talk about specifically about
quantitative professionals. So you, I mentioned, you're very passionate about
the importance of nurturing a competitive workforce of quantitative professionals.
So first of all, what does the term quantitative professional
mean to you?

Speaker 3 (09:28):
Well, being numrous is one of the essential elements of
the truth. And we can notice by watching the news
that the electorate seems to be hoodwinked over and over
the vote for action items that are not in their
best interests. So when quantitative professionals examine finding out the truth,

(09:50):
it will go a long way to building systems and
these systems are not ownly the financial systems in which
Actress have become expert in and well known for. So
in the meantime, when the majority of the electorate is silent,
the few who vote will we raise a question what
does the result really mean? And we could generalize that

(10:13):
countries and actual associations are leaving it to chance when
they develop a competitive workforce that is quantitative. So what
we need to do is focus on developing this workforce
so that we can lead to superior standards and actually

(10:34):
make more wealth for everybody to share in. So are
you agreed that that is a good aim to have objective?

Speaker 1 (10:45):
Yeah, yeah, I think definitely generating more wealth is good.
Something I want to ask about specifically you talked about
which I think is a good way of FRAMI it
is building systems. So, like you said, whether it's a
financial system, what specific do you mean by building systems
or did you have any specific ones in mind or
do you just mean like kind of making a parlia

(11:07):
to the financial systems.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
No, there are many things that the people need and
societies played with risks and count afford basic necessities like education, housing, food, transport,
medical care. So what kind of society are we building.
You know, if we brought actress and their talent in numeric,

(11:34):
what do you call it? Examining the numeric nature of
what we are trying to do to provide people with
these basic necessities, we could actually build them fast and
for more people to benefit. The majority of the population

(11:54):
living with the mindset that caun't afford medical care have
got to this stay where they believe that it's natural
or the normal pattern to get sick and eye. And
we can change this because there is enough money to
go around. It's just that it's put a lot of

(12:16):
polarization of wealth has taken place in the last three
or four decades, as well as the fact that we
can see that countries have been trying or companies have
been trying to get a cheaper and cheaper workforce, but
the workforce that they are painless or have lower paid

(12:39):
skills are not affording the basic necessities of life. So
we have a discrepancy occurring there that it's important that
we address so that we don't create more and more
of an underclass. And see, for example, Jamaica has a
depressed economy, low per capita income and six hundred and

(13:03):
fifty thousand children not being looked after properly. You know,
we could easily deal with these things one by one.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
So theah, So it would be fair to say that
your passion around the subject developing the conveetsive quantitative workforce
comes from more. It sounds like the societal implications that
that results from not having one, and that's something that
you want to see those outcomes improve.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Wou'd be fair to say yes.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
And we can do some simple, simple things to actually
show us where the gaps are. Because I once suggested
that take, for example, Jamaica, which is a small island,
and we can extend this to many other regions and
different countries in the world. If we took a map
that showed population density and we put an overlay on

(13:53):
it of the hospitals and the medical centers, we could
right away see how well we're a certain the more
dense parts of the population. And also we can tell
from the different ages of the people what facilities we
should develop in order to care for them better. That

(14:17):
example is a very powerful one, and it's the same
way we could overlay that map with population density with
other services in the industries. I think one building society
did that for their branch locations, and they found that
there were not enough locations in say the inner city areas,

(14:40):
and there were lots of the population the society that
was unbanked. And I think not only do we as
actrees need to build the systems for people who have
can afford insurance, but we must also realize that when
disaster the hit, most of the people and most of

(15:02):
the damage is uninsured.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
What's what's interesting there.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
Is there is, yes, there is a there is lots
of lots of work to do if we just start
to open our minds by even something as simple as
looking at the map.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
That's a really interesting example. And that that unfortunately, that
example of things like medical care and critical services in
not just in Jamaica. I think in other countries there's
there's a disparate distribution of some of those services. But
what's interesting is that even in the UK. I recently
just went to the UK and I went to a

(15:39):
small I was thinking in this small well just for
a short part of the ship.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
I was staying in a city called Bedford.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
And when you think of the disparity between Bedford and London,
like when I went to Bedford, I couldn't get an uber.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
It was just like you were in a ghost town.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
And I just thought to myself, I mean part of
the reason obviously, just because maybe just less people live there,
so but it's amazing when you think of the disparity
in quality of life and basic services from one location
to the next.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yes, and services follow money, because the thing is is
that with a less dense population in Bedford, there's not
enough business for the drivers to stay around in order
for you to get a ride. And last night taking
one myself in from the airport because I just came
back from London too, the driver says to me he's

(16:31):
going home because the amount of money he gets from
each ride is getting smaller and smaller, so it doesn't
suit him to stick around to work, you know, he
has to find some other work to do. And I
was saying to him, we have to look for where
the work is and look for where money is in

(16:53):
order to supply services.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah, it's Interri and London, of course, who know, is
very expensive. But also one thing I remember now, I'm
glad I remember this. On the way when I was
going from Bedford to must have been Wolverhampton, or somewhere,
trying to remember all these cities, because I went to
a few cities. I was asking him what the town,
what the town was known for, and he said in

(17:18):
the past that they had been a manufacturing town. And
as we know, manufacturing in certain I mean certain in
the US as well in many countries is you know,
it's kind of has kind of gone away in some
of the some of those towns, some of those more
rural towns. So it's such a complicated issue. I think
there's a lot of moving parts go ahead.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yes, it disappeared because as manufacturing shifted to where they
could get cheaper label, then these countries became service in
the service in industry oriented, whereas take for example, towns
and villages in Canada and England that became more tourists oriented,

(18:04):
then they have actually shifted their services to the tourists.
And then that's why when something like the COVID pandemic
comes along, they're very vulnerable because then their income stream
drives up.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah. Yeah, that sounds like a diversification thing too. Perhaps, Well,
it means.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
Then that the population now who has managed to convert
themselves into to service another industry, to supply themselves with
income have to be actually quite nimble and flexible, and
that is where our education system comes in, and that
is where our actuarial talent in terms of projections or

(18:51):
the costs of building a system or setting up the
infrastructure comes in, so that we have something to offer
in the planning of services or industry for the people
to get themselves equipped. And that is why preparing ourselves

(19:13):
for the future to be a competitive workforce becomes so
what you call it important.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
And when we talk about a competitive workforce, and going
back to some of the themes you mentioned before, integrity
for shower competency, in particular the importance of mathematical rigor.
That's something me and you have talked about several times.
I know it's something that you're passionate about. So the
importance of mathematical rigor is not lost on quantitative professionals.
Yet when we think of the broader society.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
It's essential, exactly, very essential to building a proper structure
that is resilient and sustainable. And that is why it's
so important that we actually show what we can bring
to the design of these systems, whether it be in
healthcare or whether it be transport or food supply, because

(20:08):
all of us sources are changing, and it's really, really,
really good that we can help to understand how changes
are taking place and for people to transform themselves. I
think if we could actually give people hints at how

(20:31):
they can earn a living when times needs are changing.
But then there are certain things that actually don't change,
like health care and education and transport those actually are

(20:55):
people will always and housing, affordable housing, those are things
that people all need.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, yeah, so we thought, yeah, the importance of mathematical rigor,
you know, that's something that you spoke about. One observation
that I tie this back to kind of the foundations
of Maverick actuary as well, is I think in the
broader society, with folks who maybe not as quantitative in nature,
maybe not understanding value, the importance of that mathematical rigor

(21:23):
hasn't quite permeated to the same extent in the broader
society as in my humble opinion, it's warranted. So why
do you think that the broader society hasn't fully recognized
and acknowledged the importance of mathematical rigor.

Speaker 3 (21:37):
I think we need to show them the connection because
to everything that they start to carry out in daily life.
As you begin, you need some capital in order to
do it, and therefore we also have to build a system.
So what are the elements of the system that we
have to build. You know, it could be infrastructure that

(21:59):
you have to invest in, like roads. And the thing
is is that in order to do the roads properly,
you need to know what you're moving, how many people
and goods you're moving, and also what you have to
invest in. Is it kind of equipment and the kind
of transport. So take like any country which has a

(22:22):
sort of spotty transport system. There is there are perishables
that spoil and we lose. You know, people can't get
to work on time. So you see, we have become
well known in the insurance and pensions industry and therefore
we have the ability to reach further in ever widening

(22:47):
circles to build other systems too.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
Yeah, I think it's even the example you're using is actuarial,
and I think it's even broader than that. Certainly, the
observation that I had was with the regarding the pandemic
response and how well, again, I want to be careful
with this because since then I've learned that in the
UK interviews ste at Madonnad as well in the COVID
ninete nine year response group. I think in the UK

(23:12):
was quite different from in the United States. But I
think the pandemic response certainly was not, in my opinion,
handled as well here. And I think you can have
forces like political influence that can really impact how you
respond strategically to something that requires, like you said, those
deeper insights from quantitative professionals to improve business, uh, you know,

(23:34):
decision making and business decision making.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
So you know that's one of the side.

Speaker 3 (23:40):
You're right, you have actually hit on one of the
ideas that I had that the actual profession could do,
and that is to develop plan so that when a
pandemic hits again, we can release it almost automatically. And
the thing is is that although countries may decide politically

(24:04):
that they may want to or not want to follow
this plan, at least there will be a plan and
then different actions will just jump into place, like you know,
developing vaccine and how would you distribute the vaccine and
who would get the vaccine first? You know, it's really

(24:26):
really important that we think ahead. It's the same thing
with disaster preparedness. Take like when a hurricane hits somewhere
and everything is devastated, then maybe if we had before
thought of organizing a cruise ship to go and park

(24:47):
off that island or area that was devastated, then people
could live on it right away and they could start rebuilding,
and where the children are concerned, teach us continue school,
and they would have enough food and water to survive
in a better comfort right after disaster. How come we're

(25:12):
not doing these things?

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, I think I think that's a great that's a
great suggestion. I never never thought of that before. I
think certainly where quantitative professionals can add values, I think
that well, not all of us, but I think we
have the ability to be more strategic and forward thinking. Certainly,
when I think of the actual profession, I think the
actuarial role is very strategic in nature. I think when

(25:35):
the decisions are made, certainly from the people who have
the power to make them, they tend to be more
from observation reactive than proactive. And I think that is
perhaps why that happens, or it doesn't happen, when you know,
in terms of the decisions that are made or not made,
that's my opinion.

Speaker 3 (25:52):
At the same time, dominique is so simple. All we
need to do is get together and say, let's make
a plan and get a committee together, and then we
look at what will what it will take to finance it,
what will it take to move it into action When
the time comes, you know, we can get ready to
do these things. Because another thing to which I think

(26:17):
the insurance industry should be working on is being more
insistent that buildings are built to code so that when
we have earthquakes we don't have as much devastation and
as much loss of life as happens now when a
lot of the building is not done to code.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, and I think you can make the same No.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
Again, I'm not an engineer, but perhaps I think we
have a similar challenge in the US when it comes
to tornado hail in the Midwest.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
I see every year.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
We can, Yeah, and we can get together with the
other quantitative professionals so that we well the disaster and
the rebuilding properly. Because if you're noticing, a lot of
these disasters will lose electricity and water supply. You know,
how do we harness our talent so that the periods

(27:17):
in which those services go down are smaller or have
less impact on, you know, hardship for people.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, certainly, I know because I live in California. I
know that they did a lot of the mid lot
of improvements on building standards since the Northreage earthquake. I
think that was ninety four. Way back in the day.
I wasn't that, I mean, you know, when I was
much younger. But I know that they've made some improvements there.
But certainly, like I think, it just varies depends on
the I guess you could say the peril with tornado hail. Yeah, like,

(27:52):
I mean, I fully agree what you're saying. But I
think it's interesting that in such a developed nation that
you'd still see these people rebuilding these frame homes right
in the middle of a zone where you're going to
have these ridiculous tornadoes decimating.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
These And what you say, it seems to repeat itself
every year because if you take like Hurricane Barrel, which
was going to hit Jamaica with a Fource five strength,
and what the people did because they were not in
a position to protect themselves. More because take like, for example,

(28:30):
if you make school shelters, why are we putting people
in schools where the roofs are leaking. You know how
much help is that. And what they resorted to doing
when the hurricane was coming was that they resorted to pray.
And maybe the prayers worked because the hurricane moved a

(28:52):
few degrees south and I didn't meet the island head on,
But at the same time the hurricane weakened out to
that and then went up through the whole of the USA.
But I was surprised that a hurricane of or no
a storm of strength category one did so much damage.
And flood damage actually results too, because we're building in

(29:17):
flood prone areas and we're not taking enough steps, or
the developers are not being we don't insist that they
actually build more flood control systems.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
And there was damage to the crops. Then when you
have all these floods, not just to damage the property,
so many different things.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
Yes, there's damage to crops, and so food supplies affected.
Price of food goes up. And I think there are
steps being taken by Actress in an area called inclusive insurance,
where this is called microinsurance, and the premiums are such
that it's made affordable for the farmers and they not

(30:01):
only get cover for the loss of crop, but also
they are given a capital for planting the next crop
after the disaster has hit. Now, in order to do that,
we need one hundred percent buy in buy these farmers

(30:22):
in these areas for that kind of insurance to work,
and as a community it does suit them. So we
can build these systems, and we need to be able
to roll it out so that we can give the
protection where it's needed to and also work with the
agricultural specialists so that they are getting the right seed

(30:46):
and they're getting the right farming techniques in order to
manage a better yield.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
Something that has came to me in this discussion when
I talked about the multiple impacts not just to the
damage to buildings, but the crops, everything, And I think
there's a similar theme with COVID, where it was just
not the impact of the medical of sorry the health
crisis of course, and the medical implications, but also the
school reopenings impact on literacy. One thing that strikes me

(31:15):
is that I think people who are not quantitative professionals
struggle with like multivariate distributions if I use a technical term,
but just the whole idea of things happening at the
same time. And I think that's an area where I
feel like quantitative professionals can definitely have an impact is
understand explaining the impact that when you when one when
one thing happens, you have a ripple effect. And what

(31:37):
the dependencies of something that happens here is on something there.
I think that's that's something area.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
Dependences, dependences and consequences impact both financial and human what
you call it distress all count So it needs a
team that can roll all these things into the equation

(32:05):
in order to sort it out. Yes, you're right, and
that is why we must continue to pursue this series
so that we can spread the word. And also I'm
noting that there are many university leave us so they're
graduating and yet their knowledge of the industries and how

(32:26):
they interact, especially like when business goes global as you
mentioned before, or manufacturing goes to other countries, then towns
which were wealthy because they had manufacturing concerns have to
now find other means of earning an income. So we

(32:46):
have to be able to fill these gaps. And it's
the people part of it as important, because people on
the stress. I'm sure a lot of the mental stress
that we talk about. Now it's man made because we're
actually creating the actual what you call it, scenarios or

(33:08):
situations that put these people in these terrible predicaments.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, I wouldn't agree more. No one thing I want
to explore.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
We talked a bit about quantitative professionals, who they are,
why it's important to create this competitive workforce. So they're
of course instrumental to various sectors in the economy. We're
not just limiting this discussion to actuaries. We're looking at
the broader picture of quantitative professionals. So in what sectors
if we taking a look back historically just the landscape

(33:39):
of the broadery economy, in what sectors have quantitative professionals
historically had the highest impact.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
Well, for actions, our traditional areas and where we started
were in insurance and pensions, and for that we have
a role to play within the legislative framework. Now in
the other areas we would actually just be creating and
contributing to building systems. But when we build good systems

(34:11):
using this mathematical regal and our talents for planning and
forecasting and capital, finding capital or building the what you
call it the products, the financial products that are needed
to keep these things going. I mean I saw a

(34:32):
World Bank presentation once about Mexico and they actually mobilized
long term capital from insurance and pensions to building infrastructure
in the country. Now, what is really important is that
when this money is borrowed from people through the insurance

(34:52):
and the pensions industry, is very important that they are
paid back for is for supplying this capital. And this
is why many countries don't get the support for infrastructure
that they should get, is because they have a very
low what you call it, not responsibility evidence that they

(35:20):
will that they will pay back the money. So we
need we need to show that we are trust I mean,
borrowers need to show that they are trustworthy in order
to get this capital from the people, because the people
can't keep supplying capital year after year, decade after decade
and it never gets paid back mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
And there's a system, I forget if it's a World Bank.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
There's a system where every I think every country has
a rating, right. I don't know if it's like a
formal debtorating, but essentially I think, sorry.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
Yes, And that is where society needs to understand and
leaders and governments need to understand the non count effect
that you know, we have to do this together and
where we borrow, we have to pay back and we
have to show that we can be trusted to do

(36:12):
this and then there will be a better flow of
funds and there will be better investment for all. And
because we're in a better position to work without some
stresses being as harsh as they are, then everybody gets
a chance to create more wealth and there's more to share.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, So when we took we took a look back
and looked at it historically. I know you talked a
bit about actuaries, but when we look forward again, for
the brother quantity professionals, where do you see a need today?

Speaker 2 (36:45):
And moving forward, like.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
When you look at the specific sectors of the economy
for quantity professionals know and in the future.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
There is a need everywhere because I think of a
con station shows that it comes into almost every walk
of life. I have even seen a case where an
actor in Australia has turned her talent to building a
system within the government to service disabled children or abused children.

(37:24):
So you see, we can our what you call it,
our models or our ability to think is can be
transformed into other industries to help them. So this mathematical
rigor is very important that we master it in school
because this tool goes with us for life into many

(37:46):
many areas.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
There are few in particular you mentioned when we spoke previously,
which I found more interesting. You mentioned housing, transportation, and
food supply. Any thoughts on those three because those sounds
like a very interesting opportunity.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
Yes, And a story which I can give you as
an example, is on LinkedIn. A youngster reached out to
me and asked, when not asked, demanded, he said I
need a job. So I didn't pay him a lot
of mind. So when I was not paying attention, he

(38:23):
wrote again and he says, don't leave me, I need
a job. So I decided, well, let me have much
chat with him and find out more about him, because
he's a new graduate who has tried to get work
in the archerial industry and has been unsuccessful. Not only that,
but entry level jobs are paid so on such low

(38:46):
pay scales that he can't afford to pay rent and
be able to go to work. I found out some
more about the courses he did, what he liked, and
what he did in his what he did in his degree,
and he told me. And I also asked about where

(39:08):
did he apply for work, and struck up a conversation
with him and said to him, what is your main industry?
And he says agriculture. So I said to him, but
you're numerate, You've done a good degree, you've graduated. Now
go and count for the agricultural industry. You can count perishables,

(39:32):
you can count harvests, you can count what it takes
to transport the goods from one place from where it
has grown to where people live and need food. You know.
He said, thank you so much, and I said, there
are enough jobs for all your bodies who have graduated

(39:54):
with you to go and service the agricultural industry. And
that's the same way I feel about people and countries
where the main industry is tourism, or the main industry
could be oil and gas. Go and work in the
main industries with your quantitative skills, and we can make

(40:18):
those industries even stronger and w they service to the country.
And also these industries in turn can now pay or
help to contribute to pay our essential workers so that
they can do their work more competently and with integrity.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
The agriculture one is a great example. What about housing
and transportation any thoughts on those?

Speaker 3 (40:44):
Well, yes, I did arrange an affordable housing session in
Cape Town and found an actor in South Africa who
has done research and he found that they Western type
of mortgage did not suit the people who needed affordable

(41:06):
housing because they did not work consistently, and we need
to find a type of instrument for them where they
could be able to own a house but not have
a Western style a lifestyle applied to the payback scheme.
And he also found out that the average earnings required

(41:32):
by financial institutions to issue mortgages were actually higher than
the average earnings that these people who needed housing could
work for. So we have some inconsistencies to solve, and
then we would probably have got the housing problem sorted

(41:56):
out if we put our minds to it.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
That's another great example. And anything on transportation.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Transportation, take a country where transportation does not run on time,
or where transportation is sparse in areas that need transportation
and it does not run because they're not getting you know,
the transport suppliers are not getting enough revenue from it.

(42:29):
I think if we put our minds to it and
worked out a better system of transport where we had
enough vehicles to transport or enough trains or buses, whatever
it is, was best to supply the transport and also

(42:51):
that it ran on time so people could get to
work or they could move their goods around for where
they as in the sense of like agriculture, where it's
plant stuff or animals. And if it is done so
we have less perished, less perished goods, then we would

(43:14):
have done a great service to the country operating and
the economy. The thing is is how to help the
people so that we build a stronger economy, and it's
not about keeping them depressed so that certain people can
manage to be voted in without supplying the promises in

(43:39):
the election campaigns.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeah, so that's a really good point. So we talked
about these opportunities. We just spent some time talking about
the opportunities for quantitative professionals to add value and to
have impact in society now. But those opportunities can only
be exploited with if there aren't any material gaps that
are preventing people from exploit people, organizations, countries from exploiting

(44:06):
them those opportunities. So while they are bonus opportunities for
quantity the professionals to have an impact in the broader
societies regarding the gaps, like, what are some of the
gaps today that are that are maybe maybe.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
One of yeah, maybe one of the biggest gaps is governance,
because like I said to you, if the insurance industry
took a stronger stand on building code then and also
gave people the incentive that building building to code would
mean cheaper premiums, then you see the same thing with

(44:44):
car accidents. If we told drivers or show drivers that
less accidents, less cost of claims meant cheaper premiums, would
we improve the driving and would we improve having less
people killed on roads?

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
You see, it's it's the consequences and the financial incentives
that count. And I don't think that is coming through
to the people. They feel that, you know, if a
lot of people people don't vote, they feel that even
if they're voting, it doesn't matter or it doesn't change things.
But I think it will change things when we take

(45:26):
a stronger stand, meaning we vote with strings attached, and
therefore after after they after a person gets selected, whoever
it is, we make sure that the promises are carried out.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
What's interesting with us.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
What's interesting with that example when you think of natural
catastrophes is I think on a company level, companies, well
certainly private companies that are well managed, do manage do
manage those risks well, they can put that into their
terms and conditions that if your roof is of a
certain age or based on certain inspections, then they won't

(46:07):
ensure you. But when it comes to, like you said,
the broader governance level, the broader industry level, I think
even if they were to put in and you know,
the US is probably not the best example because the
way that insurance is regulated and is also a bit
more complicated, it's not uniform at the federal level. But
I think even if they were to put some of
these guidelines into place, this is my guess, Like when

(46:29):
you look at what happens with floods, whenever you have
a flood, they essentially just create a government program. So
they have here where they have the National Flood Insurance Program,
which is essentially reinsurance.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
For the risk that the private market won't cover.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
And what happens, It runs up a deficit and it's
in debt for the next two to three decades, so
it's such a multi dimensional challenge, is but yeah, it is.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
But having the quantitative professionals on board, we can actually
work out the repayment scheme true and make it more affordable.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah, And so I think it's.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
Offer it offer it to work better so that each
each the amount of money used for recovery circles round
and then there is enough seed money for the next
recovery when it's needed.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Yeah, And it's a full circle moment in the sense
that I personally think and when I did when I
did my talk, anyone knows my testle talk a few
years ago, I talked about actuaries working in government, and
I've definitely since learn that a lot of the government agencies.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
In the US do actually have actuaries.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
But I think certainly having more quantitative professionals within those
institutions would would help things to.

Speaker 3 (47:52):
It's not it's not just the actress, but it has
to be the specialist in whatever industry is, whether it's
before our transportable. So you get together with the engineers,
with the manufacturers of the suppliers both of equipment, plant
and equipment, and the people that we're going to train

(48:13):
to run it certainly.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
And regarding the gaps, there are a few more gaps
that you mentioned, and we spoke previously. I certainly want
to talk about a few of them because I think
they're interesting and certainly relevant. One and again, some of
these may be more specific to development countries. You can
keep developing countries are you can keep me honest on these.
One that you mentioned before previously was societal attitudes towards

(48:37):
paying for competency. You know, when we talk about the
gaps of quantitative professionals being able to.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
You know, now.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
Everybody, everybody chance the Singapore model, and the Singapore model
started with with that as as its main objective, competence
and integri and you can see how it has worked
through the ages, and it has done a lot for

(49:06):
the country in terms of it being an economic power.
So there, I think we have a model that we
can study, and the thing is is to customize it
for your own conditions and own situations. But essentially, recognizing
that we pay for competency and integrity means that we

(49:30):
will nurture a better workforce and we will have the
right mindset among the workforce. That reward is there when
you're competent and have integrity.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
Yeah, because you use some really good examples. You talked
about people like professionals like radiographers, for men, policemen, very
critical industries where there is that resistance.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Then our essential services. And the thing is is that
which call on them to use their conscience That should
that should be there anyway, but we need to pay
them for doing good work.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
And another one another one that makes aut of sense
to me, certainly, you talked about education that's not supporting
our nurture nurturing this competitive workforce.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
There's you know, leading to skill gaps. That that one
I think is really crucial.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yes, and I think helping the population to decide what
is bubbling up and where are the hot spots is good.
But at the same time, if we have the press
pay skills for essential services, then people are not going
to go into those areas if we don't pay well.

(50:50):
So it should be again paying for people who are
really good at their work, love their work, and we're
so enable them to stay under a good job.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
Regarding the education, one example I think which which was
really good that you shared. You talked about a colleague
who had a friend who I think he's an engineer
and he wanted to expand his business to to service
service cruiship service elevators and cruise ships right, and he
couldn't find the stay.

Speaker 3 (51:19):
He has a business servicing elevators, and I think that
you know, there's probably a limited number or limited capacity
that you can service in a given area. So what happens?
He wanted to expand the business so that he could
service other elevators, and he thought cruise ships, which are

(51:42):
on the high seas almost continuously, would know that when
they made us stop in this sport, they could get
their elevators serviced. And he found that it was difficult
to expand the business because he couldn't get enough engineers
and technicians who were qualifying to do this work, or

(52:03):
even the interest to train them so that they could
become you know, expand or do our have wired us
more clients? That's where I'm going. We want to get
more clients for any business so that the business grows.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
So is it?

Speaker 3 (52:25):
So? Is it?

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Because the reason I'm asking now, I think that currently,
if I'm wrong, I think that example might have been
from Jamaica.

Speaker 3 (52:31):
But when we think that it is from Jamaica, and
therefore let us extend it back to training people with
technical skills. You see, we decided that we wanted to
think I think. I don't know whether it's natural or
whether it was thought better people got a better image

(52:54):
by wanting to have an office job. But the thing
is is that there are so many office jobs can do.
But at the same time, if we did the work
competently and efficiently, we wouldn't need to pay you know,
like five people to execute one action item. We would

(53:15):
have you know, work on we work efficiently, and therefore
four other people could actually go and do something else
that is useful. And many of the things that are
useful today are on the technical side, and we are
not managing to supply those people, and society has a

(53:38):
big gap there.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
So do you think.

Speaker 3 (53:41):
But then at the same time, when you think of
how vehicles have changed, you know, and they're more run
back computers, somebody servicing vehicles now has to have a
new skill in running the updates to service a vehicle
these days.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
That's a great point.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
Updating the computer. It's not you know, taking all the
oil and changing.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
Yeah, so it sounds like some of it, well, some
of it certainly is education and technology obviously plays a role.
So the nature of the education, the relevance of the education.
But one thing I'm curious about as well is how
much of it would you say is demands applying balance.
So when I think of Jamaica, one of the things
I remember a few years ago is, I think the Gleaner,
one of the newspapers said, was encouraging younger students to

(54:33):
not pursue I think law because they said they had
too many lawyers. So it seems like there's some some
professions where people want to go into that and there's
so many yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
Yes, yes, and they and the numbers wanting to do
law have increased so much now that they have to
run two streams, a shift system because the classrooms can
only in hoold so many And the same thing happened
in our scans. Because people believe that you get a

(55:04):
well paid job, and that is true, and we're actually
finding in Trinidad that they are what you call graduates
are emerging with skills that the employers like, not only
local employers but overseas employers who have graduates working for

(55:25):
them remote in a ural science, graduates so much so
people overseas are thinking of setting up establishments in Trinidad
because of the local supply is meeting their needs. And

(55:46):
also because the local supply is small in supply and
there's a greater demand, it's actually putting up paid skills,
which is on you because countries like North America aren't
trying to get cheaper and cheaper label. Yeah, on the

(56:12):
you know, demand and supply is forcing, is forcing how
the pay skills are developing. So everything. And another thing
too is that we can't get the trained graduates if
we're not paying teachers. We need to pay teachers and

(56:32):
lecturers to provide you know, these first class graduates.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
That that goes right into the same category I think
as a you know, competent pain.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
And then when we start and then when we start
to examine educational institutions, you find that they're focusing on
and it is important to be able to answer exam
questions because the more exams you pass, the better the ranking.
But the thing is is that we also want graduates
who come out who can think and understand. They knock

(57:09):
on effect of supply and demand well actually for everything. Yeah,
and we've been talking about on the whole of this
interview is supply and the demand and how it affects
the customers and it affects the providers of services, goods
and services.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
I'm glad you mentioned that last point because I was
going to bring up the what you said you had
previously said talking about needing to move graduates to the
next level beyond just answering exam questions. And when I
think back to my experience at UI, I thought academically
it was a good experience and definitely prepared you well
for exams. Two, there's two things that I observed at

(57:51):
the time, and perhaps it could be a bit different now,
but two other things I observed. One I would say
is the lack of the industry slash academia collaboration, so
that any I never really observed as many signages between
YUI and employers, like when we're graduating, there wasn't as
much dialogue between the employers and getting people students to
meet professionals understanding what they do. And then the second

(58:14):
thing is I would say limited mentorship and networking. Sorry,
limited networking and professional networks. So those are two things
I observed.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
At the time. Again, I don't want to say what
you're a few years back, but I don't know what
it is.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
But the thing is dominique is that it still occurs today. Okay,
it has it has not improved beyond the superficial. There
are some people that are supplying better linkages, but it's
sort of sporadic and one off. It's not as if

(58:49):
the whole industry is working with the educators in order
to provide this workforce. Because the educators are stretched, they
don't have enough plant and equipment, they don't have enough staff,
so we need It's the same way the person who

(59:12):
had elevated company, he goes back to his high school
and together with other parents, they have equipped the whole
technical engineering department of the high school so that the
new generation of students have the means to learn better

(59:35):
and quit more quickly, and pass better and pass and
become higher quality technical people.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
The last gap that I want to talk about is
it's something I think an observation that I certainly had
and then came out in the previous discussion that we
had is simply quantity. Professionals oftentimes don't have a seat
at the table. So when it comes to the actual
decision making that happens. We talked about the ability of
quantity to professionals to produce deeper insights that do drive

(01:00:08):
better decisions and better decision making. But ultimately, from again
my observation, I don't think we always have a seat
at the table. So what do you think if given that,
if that is a gap in your opinion, what do
you think can be done?

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
Yes, it is a gap. And the thing is is
that people have a fairly narrow view of the image
of the ACTREA as being just insurance and pensions, and
yet the skills are so transferable elsewhere. And like I
said to you, we can we blend the mathematical rigal

(01:00:42):
with demographics with financial systems in order to be able
to cost the provision of the benefits and also to
project what the size of the and if it's my
and the frequency in which they have to be paid

(01:01:03):
in the future. That's where we come in handy.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Great, So I think if I had to recap the
conversation real quickly, we talked about the importance of nurturing
a competitive quantitative workforce and if we're able to do that,
we can generate better insights that help us to make
better decisions. And hopefully create more opportunities, produce more wealth
and EU socisal outcomes.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
And to add to what you're saying, actual real associations
can get themselves more integrated with industry in order to
understand what industry needs and for industry to understand or
more different industries to understand the ever widening circles in

(01:01:50):
which actors can lend a hand and make us all
more comfortable and more wealthy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Excellent.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Look forward to continue in the good fight with you, Kathy.
So let's continue to work together in any way that
we can.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
To help to Yes, we have a part time at all.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Excellent.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
So yeah, I just wanted to thank you for your time,
and you know, let's let's as always as keep in
touch enjoy the rest of your evening.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
You too.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Thank you