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June 25, 2025 48 mins

Michael Okuda graduated from BYU with a bachelor’s in statistics and works as a data analyst in Dallas. Growing up, he was a competitive pianist, where he was a three-time champion in the statewide Kentucky Music Teachers Association piano competition. His other hobbies include tennis, trying new restaurants, and line dancing.


Michael loves getting to know people and is always curious about not only how they gather together but also connect. He was part of the first BYU belonging council to help create spiritual resources for BYU LGBTQ students.


Michael is also career-driven. He will begin his master’s in analytics through Georgia Tech and has aspirations to become a data scientist. He also has interests in personal finance, real estate, and workplace culture.


Find and connect with Michael on IG: @michael_okuda

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
I'm Megan Skidmore. For 2 1/2 years I have been
talking about evolving faith journeys.
I started to tire of the heaviness of this focus.
I had the clear message come through.
It is time for Beyond the Shadowof Doubt podcast to evolve into
living Beyond the Shadow of Doubt podcast with the same
vulnerability and unapologetic authenticity.

(00:31):
I will be focusing on the joy inthis journey, the life and the
living that comes on the other side of maybe on the other side
of what it's possible. I want to talk about claiming
spiritual sovereignty and becoming your own captain of
your vessel. Let's celebrate releasing but no
longer aligns for you and connecting with your higher
power and honor. Expanding your energy field to

(00:52):
make room for all things new. Hey, everyone, welcome to
today's episode of Living Beyondthe Shadow of Doubt.

(01:13):
I have Michael Okuda with me. Yay.
I'm so excited, Michael. I just have so much love and
admiration in my heart for you. I think we've known each other
going on two years now. Yeah, a little bit.
Something like that. Maybe maybe like a year.
I think I moved, I moved here toDallas about a year ago and I

(01:33):
reached out to you a little bit before that.
OK, I have 0 concept of time clearly.
Anyhow, yes, we've known each other a little bit.
You've been in the DFW area for a little over a year like you
said. And we met through the gather
group gatherings, gatherings online.

(01:56):
And I loved hearing your story and hearing how you're doing and
how you are navigating your faith journey, your, your life
and your, your profession too. And so I'm excited to share that
with folks and especially duringJune, which is Pride Month, you

(02:22):
are in the unique position. Although as time goes by, we're
learning that there are more andmore folks who are in the LGBTQ
plus community, which you are aswell, and also come from a very
conservative faith background, LDS.
So I'm looking forward to havingyou Share your story with our

(02:45):
listeners. Yeah, I'm looking forward to
sharing. Thank you, Michael.
I know it takes heart and soul and a little bit of courage to,
to do that. So thank you.
So let's just jump right in, take a moment and share things
that would be pertinent for our listeners to know about you,

(03:06):
your background and, and how they relate to your story,
including, you know, your family, your faith background,
any, anything that you want to share with us and feel
comfortable sharing. Yeah.
So I guess as far as life right now, so I currently live in
Dallas, so I've been here for about a year.

(03:27):
So right after I graduated BYU, that was when I moved here.
I say I grew up in Kentucky. That was where I spent most of
my life. And then after I graduated high
school, I did a year at BYU and then I served A2 year mission in
Seattle. And then I graduated with my
bachelor's in statistics, so I'll be starting an online

(03:49):
master's program in analytics through Georgia Tech in the
fall. So I'm hoping to go into data
science. That's been always my career
path. As far as my family, so my
parents, they moved to Idaho right after I graduated high
school. And my dad's a professor, so he
taught in Kentucky and then he'steaching at BYU Idaho in IT.

(04:11):
And both of my parents, they're about to wrap up their
three-year mission at the end ofthe month as mission president
and wife. So they supervise missionaries
in Guam and the Micronesian Islands, the youngest of three.
So I have a brother who lives inConnecticut and a sister who
lives in Utah, and they're both married.
And then as far as my religious upbringing, so I grew up in a

(04:33):
strong LDS household. My dad's a convert and he was
baptized in Japan when he was 17years old.
And then my mom, so she was bornin the church.
Her parents are converts. And my dad all throughout my
middle school and high school years, he was the state
president. So the gospel has been a a very

(04:54):
strong influence in my life. And one of the my favorite
things about the gospel is just the value of having
relationships with God and yourself with other people.
And another thing that I love isjust the belief that we have the
ability to make choices so that we can learn and grow.
And if we make mistakes, then wecan change and we can improve

(05:15):
and be forgiven. And the gospel of Jesus Christ
is a lifestyle that helps us reach the ultimate destination,
which is to return with God and our families after this life and
in order to reach this state that we call exaltation.
It includes some checkpoints that I think of as my road map

(05:35):
of life. And for me, that road map
included graduating high school,serving a mission to college,
dating and marrying a woman after a mission, and then
keeping to the promises that I make with God throughout my
life. And so growing up as a youth, I
highly value preparing to go on a mission.
I'd help out the missionaries about once a week to visit

(05:58):
people, knock on doors, you know, the missionary stuff.
And also, I wanted to go to BYU,and there aren't many members in
Kentucky. And I really wanted to be around
people who share the same valuesand understood my religious
upbringing. And so that's kind of my youth.
So I want to serve a mission andI want to go to BYU.
I'm guessing there were not a lot of fellow members of the

(06:21):
church in your area, or if therewere, they were spread out.
Yeah, it was pretty spread out. Like I think our, our stake
boundaries were probably about like 3 to 4 hours wide.
So my dad, he would travel basically all over to visit
people. Yeah, that sounds like my
upbringing in Indiana. So for those that are not of the

(06:42):
LDS faith background, Michael has used the term stake
president and the the word stakejust like a congregation.
A typical congregation has a leader like a a pastor or
someone who overseas and cares for the congregation.
In the LDS faith, there is an individual who overseas multiple

(07:09):
congregations. They're called boards in the LDS
faith. And so when Michael says his
father was a stake president, hewas in leadership and oversaw
it. It's usually somewhere between
9:00 to 12:00 congregations, just depending on the area.

(07:32):
So he was busy. And that's what's called a
stake. Sorry, that that large
geographic area that was 3 or 4 hours across.
Yeah, that's how the Midwest is.So I'd love to talk about the

(07:53):
uniqueness of our faith journeysand how that looks in real life
and the beautiful, exquisite, sometimes messy parts of, of
being human and how that, you know, effects each of our

(08:16):
journeys where there's no two alike, even twins have their own
differences. So, you know, my podcast is
called Living Beyond the Shadow of doubt.
I realized when I my faith journey took a pivot is what I
call it. I had questions come up, I had
doubts come up and I wasn't surewhat to do with them in the

(08:40):
beginning. I realized now in hindsight, I
was resistant to acknowledge them.
I was feeling shame or guilt or I was making it mean a lot of
things about me that weren't. I know now we're not true, that
if I had questions that that would make me, you know,

(09:02):
invalidate me as a as a believeror as a person of faith or, you
know, whatever, fill in the blank.
So, you know, my aim here is to destigmatize some of the
negativity surrounding the word doubt.
I've learned that the opposite of faith isn't certainty.
The opposite of faith is doubt. They're two sides of the same

(09:22):
coin. It can't have one without the
other. And, you know, having doubts is
what is a catalyst to finding answers and to growth.
And it's really more than that. It's like a deeper understanding
of the divine and how you fit in.

(09:45):
So I would love to hear from youany times, kind of key moments
that you can think of where you felt this kind of meeting of
maybe one, a certain belief set here and it was contrasting with

(10:08):
another way of thinking or beingor believing.
And to tell you navigated that, especially when it was your
lived experience versus something that maybe you were
being told or taught or you know, given the expectation that
it should be a certain way when it was different for real in

(10:29):
real life for you. Yeah, I think there are there
are a couple of things that I can kind of share as far as
especially I think my my orientation just growing up as a
gay latter day St. And then also just like I think
also that my Asian background kind of just growing up where

(10:50):
even though I grew up in the States my entire life, like I
had that that kind of Japanese dynamic and kind of how like
what that even means or how thatinfluence.
Tell us more about that. Yeah.
Yeah, so I guess I'll, I'll kindof start back to, you know, when
I was a youth, I really wanted to go to BYU and that was where

(11:12):
my siblings went. My dad went to BYU Hawaii.
And so that was kind of how I just decided to follow suit.
And again, like I, I knew that Iwould get a good education at
BYU and it was cheap there, but I think the, the number one
reason why I wanted to go was sothat I could be around people

(11:33):
who could understand my religious background.
And so when I got to BYU, it wasn't what I had expected.
And again, I want to preface that although BYU was a, a very
interesting place, I met some amazing people who helped me
academically and spiritually. And you've, you've probably

(11:53):
heard of the notorious dating culture there.
There's a lot of pressure from church leaders for BYU students
to date and marry. And a lot of BYU students, they
feel like being around so many people who are LDS is the
opportune time to find that person.
Yes. And so when you're trying to
find another person to become a partner or spouse, you typically

(12:15):
try to find someone who's similar with personalities,
interests, values. And that was basically the
culture of BYU. And that was kind of when I I
realized that I am Asian. And I know that sounds like a
really weird realization becauseI knew that I was of Japanese
descent. But at BYU, most people, and I
think just in, in general, most people gravitate towards those

(12:39):
who look or act like them. And I think in some sense, BYU
was a very homogeneous place. I didn't fit the mold of what a
typical BYU student should look or act like.
And I could feel that differenceIn Kentucky.
I think people were a lot more approachable.
I didn't feel like I was different because of my race,
but more because I was LDS. And again, my dad, he was the

(13:03):
state president all throughout my middle school and high school
years. So I I felt like I kind of had a
built in status. I was respected at church and
also at school, but I began to question if people like me
because I was Michael CUDA or because I was the stake
president's son. And when I was at BYUI could

(13:24):
tell the difference in the way Iwas treated, having a proximity
to status versus being viewed assomeone who doesn't look like he
fits the mold. And I just remember like I I did
not really feel like I belong toBYU.
And I felt that way in some formall four years of college.
But that first year was especially difficult.
Coming in with these expectations that I could

(13:45):
connect with these people who shared the same religious
upbringing as me, and then feeling isolated because I was
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(14:05):
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notes. To be different.
Thank you for sharing that with us.
I know that's very tender to you.
How did that affect your faith journey, if if at all?

(14:28):
I'm Megan Skidmore. For 2 1/2 years I have been
talking about evolving faith journeys.
I started to tire of the heaviness of this focus.
I had the clear message come through.
It is time for Beyond the Shadowof dot Podcast to evolve into
living beyond the shadow of dot Podcast with the same
vulnerability and unapologetic authenticity.

(14:48):
I will be focusing on the joy inthis journey, the life and the
living that comes on the other side of maybe on the other side
of what's possible. I want to talk about claiming
spiritual sovereignty and becoming your own captain at
your vessel. Let's celebrate releasing but no
longer annoyance for you and connecting with your higher
power and honor expanding your energy field to make worlds for

(15:10):
all things new. Local war, typically it's
English, but there's also like Spanish wards.
There's also a couple of Asian wards.
And I just remember like I had heard about the Asian ward.
And so I went a few times and I kind of thought, oh, like, like
there's, there's a lot of people.
And I kind of had these like, I guess some kind of notion of

(15:32):
like, maybe, maybe most of thesepeople would be like people from
like foreign countries, like Asian countries.
And there were a lot of people who are like that.
But I was also very surprised that I would say like one of the
wards was half of them were Asian American.
Like they had grown up in America.
And so I kind of wondered like, why did they, why did they go to

(15:52):
the Asian ward? Like, why didn't they go to
their local ward? And I, I just remember like my
last two years of school, I, I remember there were like a few
Asian people in my ward who decided to go to the Asian ward.
And I think it's because I thinkagain, there's just like that
homogeneous feeling at BYU whereif, if you don't fit the mold,

(16:13):
then you know, you're gonna go try to find people who will
accept you. And I think the Asian community
at BYU is very tight and very different.
So were you able to find belonging in general while you
were there? I think in some ways, I think
for me, I, I definitely tried toget involved in more of the

(16:33):
leadership kind of stuff. So I was part of like the data
science club, the statistics club.
And I mean, at this point in my in my life, in the first year of
college, I hadn't come out to myself.
But by the time that I had graduated from BYU, especially
that last year, I was able to find some people within the

(16:56):
LGBTQ community that I was able to find some belonging where
they kind of understood those backgrounds.
That's great. So, so that was actually my next
question is now we've in this other part of your identity, how
you experience love in the world.
It's outside of what society hastaught us is quote UN quote, the

(17:18):
norm. I, I don't see it that way any
longer. I believe people are born in in
the way that they're born and they love how they love and it's
God-given and there's it's not aproblem.
How did that like what questionscame up for you?

(17:40):
You mentioned that you hadn't shared that part of yourself
until close to graduation or shortly after, right?
So, I mean, there was reasons behind why your it was your own
journey. Maybe you weren't ready, maybe
you weren't sure. Maybe you hadn't actually
acknowledged that part of you. I honor all of it.

(18:01):
There's nothing wrong with the way that you navigated it.
It's perfect, right? It's perfect for you.
But if you can think back, you know what, what were some of the
questions or or doubts if that you might have had at that time
and how did you navigate that? Maybe you're still navigating

(18:24):
them? Now, so I kind of, I want to
kind of go back to my first yearat BYU.
So like at that point in my life, I don't really, so like I
hadn't come out to myself and soI didn't really understand what
romantic feelings were because you always are just shoving away
those feelings. So if you were to try to put

(18:44):
yourself in my shoes, like you'dthink that these romantic
feelings that people were talking about were bad or evil
and you'd grow up where talking about your crushes wasn't a
welcoming option or told that you couldn't act upon your
feelings. And there's like there's a wall
kind of built around that part of your identity that involves
your orientation and you just, you can't let anybody know.

(19:08):
And so you build another wall around that in case someone
breaks that wall. And people say, I love you, but
deep down you think about if people would say that if they
really knew what was behind those walls.
And it brought a lot of shame for me.
And it made me wonder, like, what's the point of having these
feelings? And so, yeah, I just thought
romantic feelings are just bad. And, and I also like the

(19:32):
discrimination I felt were people weren't interested in me
because they didn't see me as someone who's desirable.
I just thought that was also really bad.
And so during my first year at BYUI, just, I really did not
like it when people would talk about how they felt about this
girl or how they felt on that date because, you know, who
cares about feelings? Like in the gospel, we're taught

(19:52):
that a man and a woman, they're supposed to get married and
that's it. Like there's nothing about
feelings involved with that. And so, so I did a year at BYU
and then I went on my mission. And when I first began my
mission I I still have this black and white if then
mentality. Like a sort of transactional
relationship with God of where if I do this, then I should

(20:13):
receive these blessings. If I obey the mission rules,
then I should be happy. And for me, happy meant no hard
emotions. And so the reality of it was
that the first few months of my mission were extremely
challenging. I was very anxious and depressed
and put in several stressful situations.

(20:33):
But I thought, as long as I'm doing what I'm supposed to be
doing, then I should be happy. I shouldn't be feeling these
things. But I got to a point where I
needed to stop and acknowledge that this was my reality and ask
myself, like, why didn't I feel happy?
Like why didn't I just feel likemyself?
And so having this mentality of feelings don't matter, maybe

(20:54):
question a few things too. Like if the Book of Mormon is
true, then why did we teach people about feeling that it was
true? Because truth shouldn't care
about people's feelings. I mean, if people didn't have
negative feelings about the church or the Book of Mormon,
then we wouldn't have to deal with the confrontation in the
1st place. And it made me think a lot about
what I was taught about how we as humans came to earth.

(21:18):
And so when Adam and Eve, when they first came here and we're
in the Garden of Eden, they weregiven 2 commandments to not
partake of the fruit of the treeof knowledge of good and evil
and to multiply and replenish the earth.
But we see that both were contradictory because in order
to multiply and replenish the earth, they had to partake of
the fruit. But if they did, they would

(21:40):
experience pain and death and would be cast out from the
presence of God. So if we, we wouldn't have been
here if they hadn't partaken of the fruit.
But I, I often thought like, wouldn't have been better to be
ignorant of feelings and to all live in the presence of God.
And in that that moment, I thought like ignorance would
have been bliss. And so about a year into my

(22:00):
mission, I think the biggest turning point for me was how I
learned to love the people that I was around.
And one of my favorite things about Seattle is just how there
are people from all different backgrounds.
And that was never an environment that had been in
because I was in Kentucky, I wasin Utah.
And it was it was cool getting to know people who were all

(22:21):
different. And learning to love the people
from the heart instead of out ofduty was what made me happy.
And there were a few things about my mission that I'd say
help propel me to come out to myself.
And like all throughout my missions, I was still in denial
of my feelings. But learning to love the people
and acknowledging the importanceof emotions is one of the things

(22:41):
that helps me. And so when I came back from my
mission, I knew in the back of my mind that the next stage of
the road map of life is to date and marry a woman.
And I think a lot of gay return missionaries believe that if
they serve their mission well, that they'll become straight.
And I did too. And that obviously doesn't
happen. So when I came back home, I

(23:03):
continued to act in denial, thinking that these feelings for
guys didn't matter. And even when people around me
at BYU still talked about how they felt on their last date, I,
I still face the same sort of isolation at BYU.
And eventually my mind shift kind of or my mindset kind of
shifted to where I plan to be single for the rest of my life

(23:23):
and that somehow after this life, I would marry a woman who
didn't care about these romanticfeelings.
And I look back at this time of my life and I don't think I
realized it was a pretty dark place.
I didn't think there was any point in building connections
with others. Like previously I had hoped to
keep my connections with people in Kentucky and the missionaries

(23:45):
who served my mission, but that didn't really happen.
And I thought, like, what's the point of getting to know people
at BYU? Because once I graduate and
leave, the same pattern of losing contact is just going to
happen again. And so I think another of the
reasons I felt like my mission was a stepping stone to coming
out is so this was during my my third year of school.

(24:07):
I reconnected with a missionary who had served in Seattle as
well. And so her name is Kuna.
And she and I, we, we became like really good friends.
When we first reunited at BYU, she reached out to me and
invited me to do things like anyordinary friend would do.
And, and from her, I, I learned that it felt good connecting to

(24:28):
someone. And that was, that was the first
time I felt that way probably ever since my mission.
And over time, I, I also realized that I couldn't live to
be single for the rest of my life.
It was just hard. And I, I really didn't want to
like deal with those kinds of questions.
But again, I had to sit face to face with these feelings.

(24:48):
And deep down, I did want to have a relationship and a
connection with someone, But I knew that it, it just couldn't
be with a woman. And I mean, I went on dates with
girls in high school and it feltlike hanging out and it was fun.
But when I saw what dating at BYU looked like, I was like, no,
that's, that's not going to happen.
And at BYU, same sex dating is prohibited.

(25:10):
So if the wrong people found outthat I was dating guys, then
like, I could get expelled. And so I, I prayed a lot about
whether or not to date guys. And this, this probably went on
for about a month or so. And I didn't get a clear answer,
but I knew that it was somethingthat my heart desired to connect
with someone on that level. And I mean, it's difficult to

(25:34):
not have that desire at BYU considering their dating
culture. And so I, I trusted that God
will let me know if my decision to date guys was wrong.
And if it was, I plan to act like my feelings for guys never
existed like I had before. And yeah, dating at BYU was very
difficult, but it was one of themost eye opening experiences for

(25:55):
me. I'm so I'm so glad to hear how
your journey has evolved in suchbeautiful ways.
And I'm noticing that it was actually in the connecting with
people that you were able to allow motions to, to to feel

(26:15):
them again. You talked about learning to
love people from the heart as a missionary, he said.
That made me happy. And then I didn't catch your
friend's name, Kuna. Kuna.
Kuna, OK, your connection with Kuna also helped foster a, a

(26:39):
safe space for you to allow those emotions back into your
heart or, or if they were there already, maybe in very small
embryonic form, they're able to grow and cultivate.
This is not necessarily uniquelyhuman, but it is it's essential

(27:01):
to our survival. Connection is.
And so I'm so happy that you, you are taking the reins of your
journey and you can see the wisdom in what you need.
You're you're owning what you need and realizing that's you.

(27:22):
That's your journey. I'm really glad that my mission
was where I got to learn that kind of thing.
And I mean, like, obviously I know like from the road map,
like the next thing is dating and marrying a woman.
But I think, I think just like the lessons that I had learned
on my mission itself, like I would have, I think I would have

(27:42):
come to acknowledge those feelings and to really like
question the why and like, yeah,again, acknowledging those
feelings. Yeah.
So if if there were any pain points that you would that you
feel comfortable sharing about navigating this space and the

(28:02):
challenges, you talked about them at BYU and you've graduated
and and they're kind of there's some that are unique to that for
students there. But if we were to Fast forward
to now to your experience now, like what are some of the the
rough spots, the pain points that you would love for other

(28:27):
people to try to understand or at least know about?
Because we don't have to fully understand in order to love and
emphasize, empathize and see oneanother.
I think a lot of a lot of questions kind of arose when I
was dating guys and I think justlike I think just trying to find

(28:51):
purpose in life to be honest. Questions from others or
questions from you within? From definitely from within, but
also, I guess also questions from other people.
But I would say like, I think cuz I had grown up with this
road map of like, this is how mylife is supposed to be.

(29:12):
And then realizing that, you know, this isn't actually for me
anymore. It's like I have to kind of go
back and like re evaluate, like,what do I value?
What do I want out of this life?And I think kind of going back
to the, the story of Adam and Eve, like my question of like,

(29:33):
why, why did they partake of thefruit?
Why could why didn't they just want to live in ignorance and be
able to live in the presence of God?
I think just like they they feltjoy being able to experience
mortality and being able to like, experience feelings.

(29:54):
Yeah, kind of going back to thatand kind of like how how Eve,
like even though she knew that she had made this choice, like
in a similar way, I felt like I came to a cross on the roads
where I had kind of a couple of choices where either I could
follow the road map and go through the motions of being

(30:15):
sealed to a woman for eternity, or I could go against the road
map and date guys so that I can experience joy in this life with
no guarantee of what will happenin the next life.
And I mean, because people live the gospel of Jesus Christ or
people live a certain lifestyle because that's what makes them
happy. And in the sense of the gospel,

(30:36):
like it's not merely because they can live with God and their
families. And I think it, it must be
really nice to have that, that sense of security and be able to
utilize that road map of life. But I've, I've definitely
thought a lot about like, if I marry an, a woman, like would I
be happy and would she be happy?And like, even if I were to

(30:58):
choose that path to to date and marry a woman and receive
exaltation, like I feel like aresome of those who qualify right
for exaltation going to discriminate gay people because,
you know, marrying a woman doesn't necessarily mean that
I'm not gay. And so like, yeah, those are
some of the questions that I I wrestled with.

(31:19):
But, but like with Adam and Eve,much like how Eve expressed the
joy that she felt despite havingto go through, you know, the,
the sorrow and, and death, like I saw a good fruit from dating
guys. And that's something that I
can't deny. Like each person's perspective
and life experiences are different.
But for me, like I don't, I don't see myself getting married

(31:40):
to anyone out of duty. And so I wouldn't want my spouse
or or my children to go through that kind of thing either.
That's really wise and mature ofyou to, to see that point of
view and to like take it seriously, like it's, it's your
life, yes, but it also is that of others.

(32:02):
And some can make it work. I, it sounds like you have
really connected with who you are deeply who you are and what
your needs, but also like your, your desires are and you're
honoring that. And I honor you with that.
And thank you for sharing that out loud.

(32:24):
I know that hearing others stories gives hope It it helps
others see that they're not alone, particularly when they
are on a similar path or have experienced similar things like
in your case. That's definitely something that
I, I felt like I got out of dating guys was like, I don't

(32:47):
think I would have ever really known other people's stories if
I hadn't gotten to sit face to face with them and just being
able to relate to the kind of experiences that they had to go
through too. So you've kind of talked a
little bit about this. This next point I like to to
discuss a little. I have found that as we lean
into the unknown and embrace theuncertainty of that, that comes

(33:12):
often taking the reins of our spiritual journey, our spiritual
path. Yes, there are pain points, but
also there's bliss, there's joy,there's living, there's life on
that other side. You've talked a little bit about
how you've just invited feeling like literally allowing yourself

(33:38):
to feel again back into your life as part of this journey
thus far. Can you think of other moments
of joy and bliss that you've experienced?
Because you have you. You own your journey.
I think just being able to open myself up to that has helped me

(34:02):
just be able to open up to otherpeople too.
I think for me, something that Ivalue is learning and not just
like being able to have an education to learn, go to
school. Like that's definitely one
thing. But I think just again, being
able to learn from other people,learn about their stories.
Because I think a lesson that I especially learned at BYU is

(34:25):
just being open about getting toknow people and especially
people I perceive to be different from me because that
was how I was perceived. And I know it can be very
isolating. And so like going into BYU, I
had this mentality of getting toknow people who are like me and
who had an LES background. But coming out of BYU, I've, I

(34:46):
feel like I've become more open minded to people who are
different from me. And I learned to recognize that,
you know, I have biases and, andwe all do.
It's what makes us human. And like I've heard different
stereotypes, like, you know, religious people interact with
you only because they want to convert you or stuff like I'm,
I'm not into Asians, that race is just not my type, or you

(35:09):
can't be gay because you don't act feminine or or whatever.
Like we stereotype and we generalize so that we don't have
to think about the nuances as hard.
And so from that, like I learnedto introspecting, get to the
root source of why I have these certain biases.
Is it because I had a bad experience with a certain group
of people and now I make generalizations based on that

(35:31):
experience? Or does my media consumption
affect my perspectives of certain people?
And again, I learned to challenge my assumptions by
listening to other people's stories and just getting to know
them as people and educating myself.
And like throughout my time in in Utah and here in Dallas, like
I've heard people say like, oh, maybe you'd feel better just

(35:51):
being in the Asian community or the gay community or being among
Asians in the gay community. But I think I think it's great
to be able to find people who have commonalities like that.
But I think it's it's very telling of someone's character
to be able to get to know them who are to know people who are
different from them, or at leastperceived to be different.

(36:13):
Because I feel like those LES people can be friends with other
LES people. And that's the same with the
gays. But like, what about people who
are outside of those circles? And like, I'm not saying that
you have to be extremely close friends with everyone, but you
gotta at least be curious and have an open mind about people.
Brought up something really important.

(36:34):
It's a lot easier and takes way less effort to just allow our
preconceived ideas. You, you mentioned the word
stereotypes, but these preconceived ideas that we have
about people, it's much easier to just keep those and just
allow those to color our our lenses, right?

(36:54):
It does take more effort. It does expend more spiritual,
emotional, mental, even physicalenergy to take the time to walk
into a conversation, create a relationship that you start the

(37:15):
best that you're able to with, with a clean slate and just
introduce curiosity and interestand, you know, wonder into the
conversation that hopefully turns into more than one
conversation and can turn into afriendship.
I have learned so much. I believe I have been so

(37:38):
enriched by the friendships, connections that I have
purposely cultivated with those in the LGBTQ plus community.
And you're bringing awareness tome about also the cultural
element, you know, backgrounds of folks.

(37:58):
And I could probably do a littlebit better in that area.
I, I spend a lot of time online for my business, so I'm not
around people a lot in person, but, but I love what you're
saying. I love what you're sharing.
It's really good awareness to bring up.
So thank you for doing that. Anything else you can think of

(38:19):
that you might want to share? I think like, as I've been
trying to refine my purpose, youknow, at BYU, I kind of felt
like I, I wanted to try to fit in to the mold and try to be, to
impress people so that I could be accepted.

(38:40):
And, you know, after everything I've experienced, like I've
realized if someone doesn't wantto take the time to get to know
me, then like, that's OK. Like I'll move on and I'll find
people who do. Because I definitely, I
definitely kind of had like these feelings of like, oh, like
I want people to like me. And it's, it's great.
But I definitely feel like when you can just be yourself around

(39:01):
people and people who actually want to get to know you, that
that's what creates that connection.
And so totally, I think as I've been here in Dallas for, it's
been about a year now, I've definitely been trying to find
my people. I've been trying to create my
own road map. And that includes just the

(39:24):
fundamentals of like, what do I value and what do I want to get
out of, you know, being here in Dallas OR, or whatever in the
future? And just like questioning like
why? Why do I do what I do?
Why do I think about the way that I think about things?
And like for me, like I value connecting with other people.

(39:44):
I value my career and I want a relationship with the the right
guy. Yeah.
And so, yeah, Now a lot of it isjust like trying to figure
things out on my own and just being open to whatever comes my
way. I love that.
So happy for you, genuinely so happy for you.
So the last question I have for you that I ask all of my guests

(40:08):
is what does it mean to you? What does living beyond the
shadow of doubt mean to you? I.
Think as long as there's a source of light, there's going
to be a shadow. And no matter how much you run
away from that shadow, like they'll always remain.
And I think that's, it's like that with feelings.
It doesn't help to avoid or run away from your feelings.

(40:31):
It's better to acknowledge and understand where that feeling is
coming from and then take actionfrom there.
And I think that applies to, youknow, my, my orientation and how
to the biases that we all have. And I think it's a, it's a
really interesting question because like in my spiritual
life right now, it's been, this is really difficult to navigate.

(40:55):
Like even in my, my young singleadult ward, it's, it's still the
same dating culture, you know, it's still a wising ward.
People are trying to find their future spouse.
And like, the only person that I've like really come out to in
my ward is my Bishop. And it's, it's difficult being
in an environment where I'm not sure who's safe to talk about
stuff like this. So I also don't feel like I have

(41:18):
the social support that I used to have during my last year of
college. And a lot of times I felt
discouraged going to church, feeling like my trajectory in
life is different from everyone else's and not being able to
talk to someone who can relate to that.
And at least for a season, I've,I've not really been going to
church because I mean, making the choice to be somewhere where

(41:39):
I don't feel like I spiritually or socially belong.
It's not my top priority. And it's really hard because, I
mean, this is what I grew up in,like going to church.
And so as I've been trying to, to find my people, like, I feel
like I've been able to find people in the gay community
where I don't have to feel as cautious about my own safety.

(42:01):
But I think like, you know, we have the freedom to make
choices. And if I feel the need to go
back to my ward or not going to church feels wrong, then I can
make the choice to go back. And I'm, I'm glad that it's
still an option. And so I think like just going
back to like your question aboutlike what it means to live
beyond the shadow of doubt. I think like at this point in my

(42:22):
time or at this point in my life, I think the most important
thing for me is to just not feelparalyzed or not give up just
because I don't know the answersto everything.
And again, like, I can create myown road map.
I can make my own choices and figure out if the choices that I
make do make me feel happier. And I think that's what the
Atonement of Jesus Christ is for.

(42:43):
If I'm not on the right path, then I can always change or
improve what I'm doing. I am just so honored to hear you
share that with me and with our listeners.
I'm really proud of you for justfollowing your heart, following
your intuition, whatever that looks like, whatever that sounds
like, whatever that feels like. Yeah.

(43:07):
And you do to have that autonomyto change your mind if and when
that time comes. I think there's so much power in
taking the reins of our journey and taking a step back and
looking at what maybe we have believed up to that point in our

(43:27):
life and evaluate it. And even if we re choose some of
those same beliefs, there's still so much power in purposely
doing that for ourselves versus just going with the flow.
You said something along those lines earlier, just kind of

(43:48):
doing what everyone else is doing or what is expected of
you. It's extremely empowering to
take the reins and make choices on purpose for yourself.
So I honor you in that and I seeyou and I share my love with you
for that. That's that's beautiful.

(44:09):
Thank you for sharing that, Michael.
So quick for fun questions that I'm going to throw out for you
for our audience members just toget to know you a little bit
better. Tell us your favorite book or
our favorite book or. I really like the Series of
Unfortunate Events. Oh OK, I've only seen the movie

(44:30):
mostly. I love that.
What are you an introvert or an extrovert?
Definitely an introvert. Think I do that?
Who is your favorite artist? Artists like a like a music.
Person you can pick. OK, I really like Blackpink.
They're AK pop group. They're like the only K pop that

(44:50):
I listen to. I've heard of them.
That's so fun. I love that for you.
Are you a night owl or a morninglark?
Night Owl. And who is your celebrity crush,
if you have one? It's kind of hard because I, I
don't really culture myself, butI would say I, I would say

(45:10):
Jonathan Bailey. OK.
Or Blackpink. Or Blackpink too, yeah.
Do you do still or carbonated water or diet soda or some other
fun beverage? I I typically just go with
water. Water's good.
And then finally, the furthest place you've traveled.

(45:30):
Furthest place I would say between Japan and Guam.
Yeah, yeah. I have no idea which one's
further been to Japan, not to Guam.
Guam seems pretty far away, pretty small.
It's really nice. Is it, I'm sure it is.
I'm sure it is. So Michael, if folks wanted to
reach out to you that maybe havequestions, I just want to

(45:55):
connect with you. What would be the easiest way
for them to do that? Say easiest would be my
Instagram. So it's just Michael under score
Okuda or if you're really like career driven like I, I
definitely value my career. So you can find me on LinkedIn
and we can connect there. Yeah, those are the two easiest.

(46:16):
I'm realizing I mispronounced your name I think in the very
beginning. Sorry about that.
I did not notice. OK, anyway, it's been such a
pleasure to see you again, to have this conversation and to
hear how you're doing and just catch up on life and all the
things. I adore you.
I think the world of you. Thank you so much for having me.

(46:38):
This was this was awesome. So many blessings.
You're welcome and thanks for coming on.
Writer, teacher, author, Mormon scholar and founder of Dialogue
Journal Eugene England said. My faith encourages my curiosity
and awe, thrusts me out into relationship with all creation,

(46:58):
and encourages me to enter into dialogue.
As a proud member of the Dialogue Podcast Network, my
hope is that Living Beyond the Shadow of Doubt podcast is an
extension of that vision. Hopeful Spaces is a Dallas Hope

(47:22):
Charities component of Hopeful Discussions.
Sponsored by Mercedes-Benz Financial Services USA.
It's a free monthly parent, allyor caregiver support group
facilitated by megan.skidmorecoachingemailchc@dallashopecharities.org
for more info. Visit meganskidmorecoaching.com

(47:47):
to find this podcast and additional free resources,
including the link for a complimentary coaching session.
Follow me on Facebook or Instagram for more or to send me
a DM. Help the podcast grow.
Please follow, review and share with a friend.
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