February 6, 2025 • 20 mins
In this episode, Ross O’Hair and Jamie Pharis Pyles explore Romans 12:14-18, revealing how believers are empowered through the Holy Spirit to bless rather than curse, rejoice and weep with others, and live in harmony. They discuss how old patterns of retaliation stem from the flesh, but under the New Covenant, believers have a new spirit and renewed mind to respond with genuine love—even toward those who cause harm. Through personal stories and scriptural insights, they demonstrate that what was once impossible under the law becomes both freeing and joyful through Christ’s life in us.
Key Verses:
Romans 12:14-18: "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all."
Quotes: "In Christ, you can afford to be wrong, and you can afford to be wronged."
"It's not on our love and forgiveness that the world will change, but on His through us."
"God doesn’t promise great circumstances, but He does promise His presence, His love, and a peace that surpasses understanding."
Key Points:
- Living in Christ means breaking free from the old pattern of retaliation and embracing love, even in persecution.
- The renewal of the mind is not something we achieve by effort but something we allow God to do in us.
- Unity in the body of Christ comes from recognizing everyone's equal value and responding with humility and grace.
Outline:
- Introduction (00:04)
- Scripture Reading (01:00)
- Do’s and Don’ts (02:04)
- Breaking Free from Old Fleshly Patterns (03:49)
- Allowing God to Transform Us (05:08)
- A Story of Responding with Love (09:27)
- Persecution Reveals Our Faith (08:12)
- Seeing Every Person’s Value (13:20)
- Living Peaceably and not Repaying Evil (15:55)
- Corrie Ten Boom’s Story of Empowerment (16:30)
- Conclusion and Major Takeaways (19:11)
Theme Music:
Here Forever by Adigold Cinematic Strings by Cleanmindsounds (all rights and licensing from Envato elements)
Hosted by: Ross O'Hair Scripture Read by: Ben Brezina Participating Staff: Jamie Pharis Pyles Edited by: Ross O’Hair and Ben Brezina
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ross O'Hair:
Welcome to the Living in Jesus podcast. (00:04):
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Do you find it hard to bless those who hurt you?
To not seek revenge, but instead to truly live in harmony with them?
What would it take to rejoice in their joy and share in their pain?
Well, in today's episode, Paul gives us a powerful picture of what love
in action looks like, even to those who hurt us.
(00:25):
We'll look at how we can break free from old patterns of retaliation and pride,
and allow God's love to transform the way we treat each other.
In the end, Romans 12:14 - 18 isn't a list of do's and don'ts.
It's an invitation to live differently, reflecting Christ in all we do.
My name is Ross O'Hair, and I'll be your host.
And joining me today is Jamie Pyles.
But before we get to today's discussion, let's take a moment and listen to the
(00:47):
Scripture.
Ben Brezina: Romans 12:14-18 (01:00):
"Bless those who persecute you.
Bless and do not curse them.
Rejoice with those who rejoice.
Weep with those who weep.
Live in harmony with one another.
Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly.
Never be wise in your own sight.
(01:23):
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in
the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you,
live peaceably with all."
Ross O'Hair: All right. Jamie, how are you today? (01:42):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: I'm great. How are you? (01:44):
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Ross O'Hair: Good. Good to have you back in (01:45):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: Thanks. (01:46):
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Ross O'Hair: All right. Today we are covering verses 14 to 18 here in chapter 12. (01:47):
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And Paul's in the middle of a nice long list here of what it looks like to live in unity,
to have a cohesive body of Body of Christ.
So verses 14 to 18, where does he bring us here?
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Well, these verses do seem to contrast a lot of do's and don'ts. (02:04):
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Don't curse those who persecute.
Don't be haughty or conceited.
Don't repay evil for evil.
Do bless your persecutors.
Do weep for those who weep.
Do associate with the lowly.
On and on.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah On and on. (02:19):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: Paul could have based these instructions on Jesus's command in Luke 6:28. (02:20):
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Bless those who curse you.
Pray for those who are abusive to you.
And under the law, those would sound like heavy commands.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (02:32):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: Jesus's followers were still under the law because the New Covenant wasn't in place (02:33):
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until his death. So they didn't have the Holy Spirit with them.
Those commandments would have been hard.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Really hard. Yep. (02:44):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: It used to be natural for our old self, with its way of thinking, (02:46):
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to seek to hurt those who hurt us.
And those thought patterns are still part of our brain's hardwiring,
because our new heart and spirit are in our unredeemed body.
Remember from our podcast on Romans 6 that sin has been removed from the spirit and the
(03:07):
soul, but the power of sin is still in the body.
That's why the body stays behind when we die.
When we're born again, though, through Christ,
God didn't renew our physical aspects.
The Bible says when Christ comes again, he will,
but for now, he's totally renewed our spiritual aspects.
(03:28):
So with those old thought patterns, the flesh,
we still could have an initial reaction to retaliate when we feel our rights have been
disregarded or we've been hurt.
But with that new spirit and that new heart, those desires aren't compatible with our new
nature. We need a new way of thinking.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And I love how you've kind of brought in the flesh here and this old pattern, (03:49):
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because obviously Paul is trying to encourage the Roman readers here that they're new,
that they're different. We've talked about talked about identity a bunch so far, and
this is just a different way of or in different context of how that applies to all
the different things he's talking about, but especially in the persecution part he's
talking about here.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Absolutely. The good news is that all of Paul's instructions are to us as believers (04:08):
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now empowered by the spirit under the New Covenant.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (04:19):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: Paul is actually following that same line of thought from the second verse in Romans 12, (04:20):
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which says not to do the things the world does,
not to do them the world's way, but now to be transformed by the renewing of
the mind, which is just what we need to go along with our new renewed spirit.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Paul's given us a list here of ways that it's opposite of what the world does. (04:39):
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It's not to be conformed to the patterns of this world, like you said, to retaliate, get
back, defend ourselves, cry for, you know, like just persecute
someone who persecuted you, like, do all those things. And he's giving a
different perspective and one that, again, doesn't happen through the fleshly
effort that happens empowered by the spirit.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Exactly. Most people think that the renewal of the mind is something they're going to (05:01):
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have to work on, too.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. (05:07):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: But actually that verse is called a passive imperative in Greek grammar. (05:08):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. We've talked about those a few times. Yeah I agree . (05:14):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: That imperative is a command. (05:16):
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But since this is in a passive voice it means to allow yourself to be transformed.
So what Paul is asking them to do, God has actually made easier for the
believer.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And he's empowering us. Like you said, he's made it easier because in the end, (05:31):
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you know, there's that verse in John says where the Spirit of Christ is the one who
teaches us and reminds us of what's true.
And it's in that instance where he's going to continue to teach us, hey, what does it look
like to bless someone who persecutes you?
What does it look like to, you know, and he's going to give you these
instructions, and then he's also going to remind you in that time making it easier to
(05:54):
live out of the Spirit.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Exactly. God is actually renewing our mind to the truth that we have the very nature of (05:55):
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Christ, which according to Romans 5:7-8 , which we've talked about,
says that Christ has died for us while we were still sinners,
actually enemies of God.
And that's God's way. He conquers evil with love,
(06:15):
and he can and wants to do the same thing through us.
Ross O'Hair: Gotcha. Yeah. So if we specifically take these verses, (06:18):
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what's he talking about here in verse 14?
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Well, verse 14 begins by talking about persecution. (06:24):
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Yeah. 1 Peter 1:6-7 tells us that when we're persecuted,
it's to show us and others the genuineness of our faith.
It shows in what or in whom you're placing your faith and trust yourself or God.
(06:44):
When you trust God. It's going to result in glory to him.
And the Bible is very clear you cannot fight flesh with flesh.
It never works. It only leads to death, never life.
In fact, I've heard it said, when one of God's children tries to punish
the other, God's going to have to discipline both because he doesn't let us do his job.
(07:08):
We never do it fairly or even well.
Only God's unconditional agape love is going to change the world or anyone in it.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, persecution brings out a lot to the surface of things that we maybe don't know (07:17):
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are going on underneath.
Obviously, any kind of hardship like that really brings to the surface.
Okay, what am I thinking? What am I believing? What's going on here? What I think
is great if we tie that back to what we just talked about before, that God's at work
inside of us. I think oftentimes we as believers,
when we face those difficult situations in persecution,
(07:39):
what's revealed is that we DO have a genuine faith that God has established that over
time. You know, I think that's pretty cool, where it's like all of a sudden it's like,
oh, well, yeah, you know what? I do trust God through this.
Now, maybe I don't do it perfectly right? Maybe there's still doubt here and there. But
I think more often than not, God's work in us and the measure of faith
that he's given us is revealed in those times of persecution because of his work.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: He does give us a clear picture of where we're at in the process. (08:03):
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Thankfully, he's going to love us through it,
and he's certainly going to let us have lots of opportunities.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (08:12):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: So I talked to a lot of clients who deal with the everyday struggles. (08:13):
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Ross O'Hair: Issues yeah (08:19):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: Of living this kind of focus in life with the world - (08:20):
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unhappy people in the world.
I have a client who grew up.
She had a really harsh upbringing.
And so I always laughingly said that she grew up putting her best "fist" forward.
But after learning the truth of how God completely loved and accepted her,
(08:44):
knowing her identity in Christ and believing that God,
like Romans 8:28 said, would cause everything to work for her good,
she started to put aside her defensiveness and try a God's way.
She shared an incident with me that happened with an irritable salesperson.
Haven't we all had that? Yeah, she saw this person on a fairly regular
(09:07):
basis, but she didn't know her well.
So her first instinct after this encounter was to give this grumpy woman a piece of her
mind. But then she heard the Holy Spirit reminding her that she wasn't to try to get
her value from another created being.
And the old saying that hurting people hurt people.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (09:27):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: So she said to this woman, "I don't imagine this job is an easy one, (09:28):
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and it sounds like you must be having an extra rough day." She said that woman's face
immediately softened, and that began a conversation which ended
with that salesperson thanking her for her concern and telling her she had actually made
her day easier.
Ross O'Hair: Wow. (09:48):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: Her story reminded me of a quote that I love from Mike Q. (09:49):
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Daniels. He said, "In Christ.
You can afford to be wrong and you can afford to be wronged."
Ross O'Hair: That's so good. Yeah. Because again, there's the grace aspect of where you can be (10:02):
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wrong. But then there's also the actual the grace and the support that God gives us in
our identity that if we're wronged, we're going to be okay,
too.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Yeah he's got us. (10:13):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah, exactly. (10:14):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: He's in charge. Nothing's getting past his notice. (10:14):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah (10:17):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: This is just practice. (10:17):
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Ross O'Hair: Exactly yeah, and it's proving what he's saying. (10:19):
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That he's going to be there to will and to work for his good pleasure and to refine us
and continue to grow us to be more like Christ in our actions and our behaviors
because of who we are already in the newness of our spirit.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Exactly. And in my own life, I firmly believe that everything good or bad (10:35):
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that happens to us as God's children is filtered through his hands.
He's not the author of evil, but he's allowed it because of free will to
give us a choice. So I have a choice every day in how I can respond.
I can choose to respond in the flesh.
(10:55):
Things won't end well.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah (10:56):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: But I know that I'll still be loved and forgiven. (10:56):
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Or I can rely on the spirit to love and forgive through me.
And my feelings and actions will reflect Christ in me the way they were meant to do.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (11:10):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: So God hasn't always let me see the outcome of my faith in him, (11:11):
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but it has always resulted in more peace and less regret than when I've chosen my own
path.
Ross O'Hair: Right. Which is exactly what God has promised. And he doesn't promise great (11:21):
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circumstances or that everything works out. But he promises that peace that passes
understanding. He promises his presence and his love so that no matter what,
if we're wrong or we are wronged.
Yeah, those things are ring true no matter what.
And again, that's what everybody's looking for. I mean, the world is looking for that.
They just have no idea how to do it and where to find it.
(11:41):
They're trying to find it in their own flesh and in their own way.
God's got that market cornered on how to make that fulfillment happen regardless.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Exactly. And our response is so counterintuitive. (11:49):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (11:53):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: That it's so awesome to see. (11:54):
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I think that's what captures people's.
Ross O'Hair: Absolutely. (12:00):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: minds and says, hey, wait a minute, I want some of that. (12:01):
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Ross O'Hair: Absolutely. 100%. Yep. (12:05):
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It's like a taste of life and they're like, hold on,
I want some of that. Give me that. Yeah.
What just happened there?
Jamie Pharis Pyles: That actually worked. (12:12):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. I mean, because my own experience - that's true. (12:13):
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Those moments you encounter the truth and it changes your heart. You're like, wait a
minute. That's. I want that more.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Yes. (12:20):
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Ross O'Hair: Where does he keep going with these verses? (12:21):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: So verses 15 and 16 are examples of what Christ's renewal of our minds will produce. (12:23):
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Unity and harmony was actually a banner attribute of that early church.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (12:33):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: They were known for it. It amazed everyone. (12:34):
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Part of that unity and harmony was not just avoiding arguments,
but understanding when one of us hurts, we're all affected.
There's something so healing in shared experiences.
I like the saying that pain shared is halved and joy shared is multiplied.
Ross O'Hair: Oh, yeah. I like it. (12:56):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: So another aspect of preserving unity and harmony is found in that verse 16. (12:57):
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Seeing the value in everyone can help, whether you're angry with someone for how
they treated you or if you feel like you deserve better treatment maybe because your
position or status. And we don't like to think that attitude is happening in the
(13:17):
church, but it obviously does.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. (13:20):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: But the cross has put all of us on the same level, (13:20):
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elevating the value of everyone on earth.
Christ has died for all of us, whether we choose him or not.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah. This list really is so practical because these are experiences that we either (13:32):
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individually have in our communities or the church as a corporate has that have to walk
through and figure out.
And it's really when we understand where Paul has brought us with our identity and who we
are and what Christ is doing, how he's working in our hearts. This really
(13:52):
does make a lot of sense that the spirit is leading us to act and react in these kinds of
ways.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Right because this verse tells us to "be of the same mind" as the body of Christ, (13:58):
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not to be haughty. So this is definitely what I like to call a "re" "MIND" "er" that our
new natures won't align with our old brain synapses,
our former way of thinking.
(14:20):
And we need to allow the mind and the love of Christ to control us,
not our own understanding.
So verse 17 gives us a definite boundary for believers,
because it's going to use the words never and anyone.
We are never, not even once, to react to evil by committing evil.
(14:41):
That would be a reflection of our old ways.
And it doesn't matter who committed the evil.
That's for anyone, whether they're Christians or not.
We're told to respect what is right for all people,
not just our brothers or brothers or sisters in Christ.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And you see this in the world in very stark ways. (14:55):
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There's a lot of evil in the world.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Absolutely. (15:01):
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Ross O'Hair: And when you see, you know, whether it's a person, (15:01):
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an army, a nation respond to that evil, you can tell whether they're responding with
evil and or with love and kindness and goodness.
And it's a stark contrast.
And I think that's what Paul is trying to urge the church to be is,
hey, be that light that shows that example because we are going to face evil in this
(15:24):
world. How do we respond?
Now, again, there's room for mistakes in here.
We obviously can, and I'm sure I've responded in an evil way to somebody.
But there's the grace for that.
But it's also the gentle reminder of the spirit, like, hey, that's not who you are.
That's not going to help. That's not going to work out the way...
Jamie Pharis Pyles: It won't change anything really. It makes things worse. (15:40):
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Ross O'Hair: Yes. Exactly. Correct. (15:43):
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Yep.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Well, verse 18 tells us, it reminds us that, (15:44):
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hey, you can offer peace to someone.
That doesn't mean that they'll accept it.
Ross O'Hair: Sure. (15:54):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: So we can't make someone forgive us if we wrong them. (15:55):
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That's not always the outcome even with Christians,
right?
Ross O'Hair: Right Yeah. (16:02):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: We certainly can't expect or demand it from unbelievers. (16:02):
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It just isn't always in their purview regardless.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (16:11):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: But God says on our part, our responsibility is with our own behavior, (16:12):
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no matter what the response of others is.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (16:21):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: He can reflect his love and forgiveness through the power of the Holy Spirit within (16:21):
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us. I love the story corrie ten Boom tells.
She wrote "The Hiding Place" and some other books about her own experience in a German
concentration camp during World War Two, and she tells about meeting one of those SS
(16:42):
officers who'd been horrible to her and her sister during their imprisonment for helping
Jews escape the Nazis.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (16:49):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: So this officer had come up to her after one of her speeches. (16:49):
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She gave them all over the country about forgiveness,
and he said he was so happy to hear that God could forgive even him.
And then he held out his hand for Corey to shake.
Corey tells that she tried, but she couldn't even lift her hand.
(17:10):
She said she saw the sin of not offering this man her forgiveness when God had already
forgiven him. So she prayed, God, help me forgive him.
She said she still felt nothing.
So she tried again. And this time she prayed,
God, I cannot forgive him.
(17:30):
Give me your forgiveness.
She said. Her hand suddenly shot up and shook his.
And as she did, she said she felt this tremendous love that she could not have
produced, travel through her to that man.
And she wrote that day that she learned that it's not on our love and forgiveness,
(17:54):
that the world would change.
But on his through us.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. (17:58):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: And that's exactly what Paul is saying through these verses. (17:59):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's his love has been poured out into our hearts, (18:03):
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and it's his love that spurs us on.
And obviously in that moment, Corrie Ten Boom is depending on and reaching
out to the spirit for help.
And you know, that's kind of our role is to be like, "God, I need your help, I need
this." But it's absolutely his power through us that changes us,
that allows us to forgive someone who's committed evil to us,
(18:25):
that's persecuting us.
And you're exactly right. Paul is showing that God's love through us is what makes
these verses happen.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: And I'm going to shock some people, but I actually quit asking for God's help a (18:31):
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long time ago. What I do instead is I say, "God,
do this through me."
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (18:42):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: I can tell I'm low. I'm low on love. (18:43):
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Ross O'Hair: Sure. I'm low on forgiveness. (18:46):
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That's my old brain's wiring and synapses coming through.
But that new heart and spirit wants his way.
So I'm willing to say, "you have control.
Do this through me." And I find that that that actually does the job.
Yeah. That's awesome. So what would be our final takeaway here? As people listen to
(19:08):
these verses, what can we take away from this.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Just that. That under law this used to be hard when Jesus told his believers, (19:11):
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don't persecute people.
They had to try to work up the love and the forgiveness.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (19:22):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: But what God has given us is so much better - (19:23):
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a renewed spirit, a new heart.
And now he's renewing the mind to work in harmony with who we are.
United with him where now, he does the work through you.
So these verses aren't actually a hardship anymore.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. (19:44):
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We've talked about that many times. Like there's so many things in these verses in
Romans 12 where when we think about it through the grace lens and understand who we
are, they actually become a joy and.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Amen. (19:56):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah, they become fulfilling to do. (19:56):
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And obviously that's the the secret unlock that God is trying to reveal to us is like
hey, this is what happens when you trust me and obey me and live out of who you are and
live with my power working through you as you experience that joy and peace.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: And it's the best way to see God work. (20:12):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah (20:14):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: it's almost miraculous. (20:14):
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Ross O'Hair: Absolutely. Well, Jamie, thank you so much. (20:16):
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Really appreciate your time. Enjoyed it. Yeah.
Thanks for walking us through these verses. And guys, we're going to continue in chapter
12 next week. And we appreciate you listening today.
And we'll see you next week on the Living in Jesus podcast.
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Do you find it hard to bless those who hurt you?
To not seek revenge, but instead to truly live in harmony with them?
What would it take to rejoice in their joy and share in their pain?
Well, in today's episode, Paul gives us a powerful picture of what love
in action looks like, even to those who hurt us.
(00:25):
We'll look at how we can break free from old patterns of retaliation and pride,
and allow God's love to transform the way we treat each other.
In the end, Romans 12:14 - 18 isn't a list of do's and don'ts.
It's an invitation to live differently, reflecting Christ in all we do.
My name is Ross O'Hair, and I'll be your host.
And joining me today is Jamie Pyles.
But before we get to today's discussion, let's take a moment and listen to the
(00:47):
Scripture.
Ben Brezina: Romans 12:14-18 (01:00):
"Bless those who persecute you.
Bless and do not curse them.
Rejoice with those who rejoice.
Weep with those who weep.
Live in harmony with one another.
Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly.
Never be wise in your own sight.
(01:23):
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in
the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you,
live peaceably with all."
Ross O'Hair: All right. Jamie, how are you today? (01:42):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: I'm great. How are you? (01:44):
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Ross O'Hair: Good. Good to have you back in (01:45):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: Thanks. (01:46):
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Ross O'Hair: All right. Today we are covering verses 14 to 18 here in chapter 12. (01:47):
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And Paul's in the middle of a nice long list here of what it looks like to live in unity,
to have a cohesive body of Body of Christ.
So verses 14 to 18, where does he bring us here?
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Well, these verses do seem to contrast a lot of do's and don'ts. (02:04):
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Don't curse those who persecute.
Don't be haughty or conceited.
Don't repay evil for evil.
Do bless your persecutors.
Do weep for those who weep.
Do associate with the lowly.
On and on.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah On and on. (02:19):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Paul could have based these instructions on Jesus's command in Luke 6:28. (02:20):
undefined
Bless those who curse you.
Pray for those who are abusive to you.
And under the law, those would sound like heavy commands.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (02:32):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Jesus's followers were still under the law because the New Covenant wasn't in place (02:33):
undefined
until his death. So they didn't have the Holy Spirit with them.
Those commandments would have been hard.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Really hard. Yep. (02:44):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: It used to be natural for our old self, with its way of thinking, (02:46):
undefined
to seek to hurt those who hurt us.
And those thought patterns are still part of our brain's hardwiring,
because our new heart and spirit are in our unredeemed body.
Remember from our podcast on Romans 6 that sin has been removed from the spirit and the
(03:07):
soul, but the power of sin is still in the body.
That's why the body stays behind when we die.
When we're born again, though, through Christ,
God didn't renew our physical aspects.
The Bible says when Christ comes again, he will,
but for now, he's totally renewed our spiritual aspects.
(03:28):
So with those old thought patterns, the flesh,
we still could have an initial reaction to retaliate when we feel our rights have been
disregarded or we've been hurt.
But with that new spirit and that new heart, those desires aren't compatible with our new
nature. We need a new way of thinking.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And I love how you've kind of brought in the flesh here and this old pattern, (03:49):
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because obviously Paul is trying to encourage the Roman readers here that they're new,
that they're different. We've talked about talked about identity a bunch so far, and
this is just a different way of or in different context of how that applies to all
the different things he's talking about, but especially in the persecution part he's
talking about here.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Absolutely. The good news is that all of Paul's instructions are to us as believers (04:08):
undefined
now empowered by the spirit under the New Covenant.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (04:19):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Paul is actually following that same line of thought from the second verse in Romans 12, (04:20):
undefined
which says not to do the things the world does,
not to do them the world's way, but now to be transformed by the renewing of
the mind, which is just what we need to go along with our new renewed spirit.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Paul's given us a list here of ways that it's opposite of what the world does. (04:39):
undefined
It's not to be conformed to the patterns of this world, like you said, to retaliate, get
back, defend ourselves, cry for, you know, like just persecute
someone who persecuted you, like, do all those things. And he's giving a
different perspective and one that, again, doesn't happen through the fleshly
effort that happens empowered by the spirit.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Exactly. Most people think that the renewal of the mind is something they're going to (05:01):
undefined
have to work on, too.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. (05:07):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: But actually that verse is called a passive imperative in Greek grammar. (05:08):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. We've talked about those a few times. Yeah I agree . (05:14):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: That imperative is a command. (05:16):
undefined
But since this is in a passive voice it means to allow yourself to be transformed.
So what Paul is asking them to do, God has actually made easier for the
believer.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And he's empowering us. Like you said, he's made it easier because in the end, (05:31):
undefined
you know, there's that verse in John says where the Spirit of Christ is the one who
teaches us and reminds us of what's true.
And it's in that instance where he's going to continue to teach us, hey, what does it look
like to bless someone who persecutes you?
What does it look like to, you know, and he's going to give you these
instructions, and then he's also going to remind you in that time making it easier to
(05:54):
live out of the Spirit.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Exactly. God is actually renewing our mind to the truth that we have the very nature of (05:55):
undefined
Christ, which according to Romans 5:7-8 , which we've talked about,
says that Christ has died for us while we were still sinners,
actually enemies of God.
And that's God's way. He conquers evil with love,
(06:15):
and he can and wants to do the same thing through us.
Ross O'Hair: Gotcha. Yeah. So if we specifically take these verses, (06:18):
undefined
what's he talking about here in verse 14?
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Well, verse 14 begins by talking about persecution. (06:24):
undefined
Yeah. 1 Peter 1:6-7 tells us that when we're persecuted,
it's to show us and others the genuineness of our faith.
It shows in what or in whom you're placing your faith and trust yourself or God.
(06:44):
When you trust God. It's going to result in glory to him.
And the Bible is very clear you cannot fight flesh with flesh.
It never works. It only leads to death, never life.
In fact, I've heard it said, when one of God's children tries to punish
the other, God's going to have to discipline both because he doesn't let us do his job.
(07:08):
We never do it fairly or even well.
Only God's unconditional agape love is going to change the world or anyone in it.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, persecution brings out a lot to the surface of things that we maybe don't know (07:17):
undefined
are going on underneath.
Obviously, any kind of hardship like that really brings to the surface.
Okay, what am I thinking? What am I believing? What's going on here? What I think
is great if we tie that back to what we just talked about before, that God's at work
inside of us. I think oftentimes we as believers,
when we face those difficult situations in persecution,
(07:39):
what's revealed is that we DO have a genuine faith that God has established that over
time. You know, I think that's pretty cool, where it's like all of a sudden it's like,
oh, well, yeah, you know what? I do trust God through this.
Now, maybe I don't do it perfectly right? Maybe there's still doubt here and there. But
I think more often than not, God's work in us and the measure of faith
that he's given us is revealed in those times of persecution because of his work.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: He does give us a clear picture of where we're at in the process. (08:03):
undefined
Thankfully, he's going to love us through it,
and he's certainly going to let us have lots of opportunities.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (08:12):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: So I talked to a lot of clients who deal with the everyday struggles. (08:13):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Issues yeah (08:19):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Of living this kind of focus in life with the world - (08:20):
undefined
unhappy people in the world.
I have a client who grew up.
She had a really harsh upbringing.
And so I always laughingly said that she grew up putting her best "fist" forward.
But after learning the truth of how God completely loved and accepted her,
(08:44):
knowing her identity in Christ and believing that God,
like Romans 8:28 said, would cause everything to work for her good,
she started to put aside her defensiveness and try a God's way.
She shared an incident with me that happened with an irritable salesperson.
Haven't we all had that? Yeah, she saw this person on a fairly regular
(09:07):
basis, but she didn't know her well.
So her first instinct after this encounter was to give this grumpy woman a piece of her
mind. But then she heard the Holy Spirit reminding her that she wasn't to try to get
her value from another created being.
And the old saying that hurting people hurt people.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (09:27):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: So she said to this woman, "I don't imagine this job is an easy one, (09:28):
undefined
and it sounds like you must be having an extra rough day." She said that woman's face
immediately softened, and that began a conversation which ended
with that salesperson thanking her for her concern and telling her she had actually made
her day easier.
Ross O'Hair: Wow. (09:48):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Her story reminded me of a quote that I love from Mike Q. (09:49):
undefined
Daniels. He said, "In Christ.
You can afford to be wrong and you can afford to be wronged."
Ross O'Hair: That's so good. Yeah. Because again, there's the grace aspect of where you can be (10:02):
undefined
wrong. But then there's also the actual the grace and the support that God gives us in
our identity that if we're wronged, we're going to be okay,
too.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Yeah he's got us. (10:13):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, exactly. (10:14):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: He's in charge. Nothing's getting past his notice. (10:14):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah (10:17):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: This is just practice. (10:17):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Exactly yeah, and it's proving what he's saying. (10:19):
undefined
That he's going to be there to will and to work for his good pleasure and to refine us
and continue to grow us to be more like Christ in our actions and our behaviors
because of who we are already in the newness of our spirit.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Exactly. And in my own life, I firmly believe that everything good or bad (10:35):
undefined
that happens to us as God's children is filtered through his hands.
He's not the author of evil, but he's allowed it because of free will to
give us a choice. So I have a choice every day in how I can respond.
I can choose to respond in the flesh.
(10:55):
Things won't end well.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah (10:56):
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Jamie Pharis Pyles: But I know that I'll still be loved and forgiven. (10:56):
undefined
Or I can rely on the spirit to love and forgive through me.
And my feelings and actions will reflect Christ in me the way they were meant to do.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (11:10):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: So God hasn't always let me see the outcome of my faith in him, (11:11):
undefined
but it has always resulted in more peace and less regret than when I've chosen my own
path.
Ross O'Hair: Right. Which is exactly what God has promised. And he doesn't promise great (11:21):
undefined
circumstances or that everything works out. But he promises that peace that passes
understanding. He promises his presence and his love so that no matter what,
if we're wrong or we are wronged.
Yeah, those things are ring true no matter what.
And again, that's what everybody's looking for. I mean, the world is looking for that.
They just have no idea how to do it and where to find it.
(11:41):
They're trying to find it in their own flesh and in their own way.
God's got that market cornered on how to make that fulfillment happen regardless.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Exactly. And our response is so counterintuitive. (11:49):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (11:53):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: That it's so awesome to see. (11:54):
undefined
I think that's what captures people's.
Ross O'Hair: Absolutely. (12:00):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: minds and says, hey, wait a minute, I want some of that. (12:01):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Absolutely. 100%. Yep. (12:05):
undefined
It's like a taste of life and they're like, hold on,
I want some of that. Give me that. Yeah.
What just happened there?
Jamie Pharis Pyles: That actually worked. (12:12):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. I mean, because my own experience - that's true. (12:13):
undefined
Those moments you encounter the truth and it changes your heart. You're like, wait a
minute. That's. I want that more.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Yes. (12:20):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Where does he keep going with these verses? (12:21):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: So verses 15 and 16 are examples of what Christ's renewal of our minds will produce. (12:23):
undefined
Unity and harmony was actually a banner attribute of that early church.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (12:33):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: They were known for it. It amazed everyone. (12:34):
undefined
Part of that unity and harmony was not just avoiding arguments,
but understanding when one of us hurts, we're all affected.
There's something so healing in shared experiences.
I like the saying that pain shared is halved and joy shared is multiplied.
Ross O'Hair: Oh, yeah. I like it. (12:56):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: So another aspect of preserving unity and harmony is found in that verse 16. (12:57):
undefined
Seeing the value in everyone can help, whether you're angry with someone for how
they treated you or if you feel like you deserve better treatment maybe because your
position or status. And we don't like to think that attitude is happening in the
(13:17):
church, but it obviously does.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. (13:20):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: But the cross has put all of us on the same level, (13:20):
undefined
elevating the value of everyone on earth.
Christ has died for all of us, whether we choose him or not.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah. This list really is so practical because these are experiences that we either (13:32):
undefined
individually have in our communities or the church as a corporate has that have to walk
through and figure out.
And it's really when we understand where Paul has brought us with our identity and who we
are and what Christ is doing, how he's working in our hearts. This really
(13:52):
does make a lot of sense that the spirit is leading us to act and react in these kinds of
ways.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Right because this verse tells us to "be of the same mind" as the body of Christ, (13:58):
undefined
not to be haughty. So this is definitely what I like to call a "re" "MIND" "er" that our
new natures won't align with our old brain synapses,
our former way of thinking.
(14:20):
And we need to allow the mind and the love of Christ to control us,
not our own understanding.
So verse 17 gives us a definite boundary for believers,
because it's going to use the words never and anyone.
We are never, not even once, to react to evil by committing evil.
(14:41):
That would be a reflection of our old ways.
And it doesn't matter who committed the evil.
That's for anyone, whether they're Christians or not.
We're told to respect what is right for all people,
not just our brothers or brothers or sisters in Christ.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And you see this in the world in very stark ways. (14:55):
undefined
There's a lot of evil in the world.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Absolutely. (15:01):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: And when you see, you know, whether it's a person, (15:01):
undefined
an army, a nation respond to that evil, you can tell whether they're responding with
evil and or with love and kindness and goodness.
And it's a stark contrast.
And I think that's what Paul is trying to urge the church to be is,
hey, be that light that shows that example because we are going to face evil in this
(15:24):
world. How do we respond?
Now, again, there's room for mistakes in here.
We obviously can, and I'm sure I've responded in an evil way to somebody.
But there's the grace for that.
But it's also the gentle reminder of the spirit, like, hey, that's not who you are.
That's not going to help. That's not going to work out the way...
Jamie Pharis Pyles: It won't change anything really. It makes things worse. (15:40):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yes. Exactly. Correct. (15:43):
undefined
Yep.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Well, verse 18 tells us, it reminds us that, (15:44):
undefined
hey, you can offer peace to someone.
That doesn't mean that they'll accept it.
Ross O'Hair: Sure. (15:54):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: So we can't make someone forgive us if we wrong them. (15:55):
undefined
That's not always the outcome even with Christians,
right?
Ross O'Hair: Right Yeah. (16:02):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: We certainly can't expect or demand it from unbelievers. (16:02):
undefined
It just isn't always in their purview regardless.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (16:11):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: But God says on our part, our responsibility is with our own behavior, (16:12):
undefined
no matter what the response of others is.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (16:21):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: He can reflect his love and forgiveness through the power of the Holy Spirit within (16:21):
undefined
us. I love the story corrie ten Boom tells.
She wrote "The Hiding Place" and some other books about her own experience in a German
concentration camp during World War Two, and she tells about meeting one of those SS
(16:42):
officers who'd been horrible to her and her sister during their imprisonment for helping
Jews escape the Nazis.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (16:49):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: So this officer had come up to her after one of her speeches. (16:49):
undefined
She gave them all over the country about forgiveness,
and he said he was so happy to hear that God could forgive even him.
And then he held out his hand for Corey to shake.
Corey tells that she tried, but she couldn't even lift her hand.
(17:10):
She said she saw the sin of not offering this man her forgiveness when God had already
forgiven him. So she prayed, God, help me forgive him.
She said she still felt nothing.
So she tried again. And this time she prayed,
God, I cannot forgive him.
(17:30):
Give me your forgiveness.
She said. Her hand suddenly shot up and shook his.
And as she did, she said she felt this tremendous love that she could not have
produced, travel through her to that man.
And she wrote that day that she learned that it's not on our love and forgiveness,
(17:54):
that the world would change.
But on his through us.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. (17:58):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: And that's exactly what Paul is saying through these verses. (17:59):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's his love has been poured out into our hearts, (18:03):
undefined
and it's his love that spurs us on.
And obviously in that moment, Corrie Ten Boom is depending on and reaching
out to the spirit for help.
And you know, that's kind of our role is to be like, "God, I need your help, I need
this." But it's absolutely his power through us that changes us,
that allows us to forgive someone who's committed evil to us,
(18:25):
that's persecuting us.
And you're exactly right. Paul is showing that God's love through us is what makes
these verses happen.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: And I'm going to shock some people, but I actually quit asking for God's help a (18:31):
undefined
long time ago. What I do instead is I say, "God,
do this through me."
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (18:42):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: I can tell I'm low. I'm low on love. (18:43):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Sure. I'm low on forgiveness. (18:46):
undefined
That's my old brain's wiring and synapses coming through.
But that new heart and spirit wants his way.
So I'm willing to say, "you have control.
Do this through me." And I find that that that actually does the job.
Yeah. That's awesome. So what would be our final takeaway here? As people listen to
(19:08):
these verses, what can we take away from this.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Just that. That under law this used to be hard when Jesus told his believers, (19:11):
undefined
don't persecute people.
They had to try to work up the love and the forgiveness.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (19:22):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: But what God has given us is so much better - (19:23):
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a renewed spirit, a new heart.
And now he's renewing the mind to work in harmony with who we are.
United with him where now, he does the work through you.
So these verses aren't actually a hardship anymore.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. (19:44):
undefined
We've talked about that many times. Like there's so many things in these verses in
Romans 12 where when we think about it through the grace lens and understand who we
are, they actually become a joy and.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: Amen. (19:56):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, they become fulfilling to do. (19:56):
undefined
And obviously that's the the secret unlock that God is trying to reveal to us is like
hey, this is what happens when you trust me and obey me and live out of who you are and
live with my power working through you as you experience that joy and peace.
Jamie Pharis Pyles: And it's the best way to see God work. (20:12):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah (20:14):
undefined
Jamie Pharis Pyles: it's almost miraculous. (20:14):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Absolutely. Well, Jamie, thank you so much. (20:16):
undefined
Really appreciate your time. Enjoyed it. Yeah.
Thanks for walking us through these verses. And guys, we're going to continue in chapter
12 next week. And we appreciate you listening today.
And we'll see you next week on the Living in Jesus podcast.
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