January 2, 2025 • 20 mins
In this episode, Ross O’Hair and Mark Fields closely examine Romans 8:28-30, discussing how God’s goodness and sovereignty bring hope even during life’s most challenging circumstances. They unpack the truths of this famous passage, exploring how God works all things for good for those who love Him. Using personal stories, biblical examples, and down-to-earth insights, they show how trials can transform us into the image of Christ, deepening our dependence on Him and renewing our perspective on hardship. If you’ve ever felt stuck in pain or wondered where God is, this conversation will encourage and empower you to trust that He is always working, always present, and always good.
Key Verses:
Romans 8:28-30 - "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Quotes:
“Sometimes the good from our circumstances may not be evident until much later, but God is weaving all things together with His wisdom and timing.”
“God’s purpose is not just to fix our pain but to conform us to the image of His Son, aligning our thoughts, attitudes, and actions with His life in us.”
Key Points:
- God’s sovereignty assures us that He is in control and works all things for good in the lives of believers.
- The ultimate good is being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, which is God’s purpose for every believer.
- Trusting God’s goodness and presence transforms suffering into a pathway for deeper dependence and greater enjoyment of Him.
Outline:
- Introduction (00:00)
- Scripture Reading (00:57)
- Hope through God’s Goodness and Sovereignty (1:34)
- God’s Hand in “All Things” (3:28)
- When Life Hurts: The Tension of Trust (4:57)
- The Bigger Picture: God’s Ultimate Good (6:35)
- Chiseling the Masterpiece: Michelangelo and the Image of David (14:14)
- God’s Goodness in Aging: Mark’s Personal Journey (15:24)
- From Pain to Peace – Practical advice on leaning into God’s Goodness. (18:11)
- Conclusion and Major Takeaways (18:38)
Theme Music:
Here Forever by Adigold (all rights and licensing from Envato elements)
Hosted by: Ross O'Hair Participating Staff: Mark Fields Scripture Reading by: Corrie O'Hair Edited by: Ross O’Hair and Ben Brezina
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ross O'Hair:
Welcome to the Living in Jesus podcast. (00:03):
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Have you ever been in a difficult situationwhere you couldn't see any good coming from
it? Maybe everything seemed to be holdingyou down and beating you up.
Maybe you wondered where God was or if heeven cared.
Maybe you felt that God has abandoned you,or maybe that he isn't even real.
These are situations that all humans have orwill face on some level, and the answers to
(00:26):
these questions will shape and mark usforever.
And God has the only answer for it.
Paul experienced tremendous suffering andaddressed his thoughts on these questions in
Romans 828 to 30.
My name is Ross O'Hare and I'm your host.
And joining me on today's discussion is Markfields.
But before we get to today's episode, let'stake a moment and listen to the Scripture.
Corrie O'Hair: Romans 8:28-30 (00:57):
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those
who love God, to those who are calledaccording to his purpose.
For those whom he foreknew, he alsopredestined to become conformed to the image
of His Son, so that he would be thefirstborn among many brethren.
And these whom he predestined, he alsocalled, and these whom he called, he also
(01:21):
justified, and these whom he justified, healso glorified."
Ross O'Hair: All right, Mark, how are you doing today? (01:34):
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Mark Fields: I'm good Ross, how are you? (01:35):
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Ross O'Hair: Good. Good to have you back. (01:36):
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We are in part five of Romans eight, so I'mjust going to hit it off to you.
Where does Paul pick us up here.
Mark Fields: All right, Ross, well, we finished the last podcast talking about hope and how hope gives (01:43):
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us the peace, joy, and perseverance toendure the present moment, no matter how
painful. And now, as we discuss this veryfamous passage, we see how these truths
continue to instill hope in us as believers.
As CFT, we teach that how we see God affectshow we see ourselves.
This in turn affects how we see others andour circumstances.
(02:07):
These three verses show us who God is.
This helps us see our circumstances inalignment with what he is doing.
And this gives us hope because we see God inour circumstances.
Verse 28 starts with and we know that God.
How did the audience know?
Well, in Romans 15 four it says, forwhatever was written in earlier times was
(02:28):
written for our instruction, so that throughperseverance and the encouragement of the
scriptures, we might have hope.
The scriptures told the Roman Christians andus today of how God worked good in the men
and women, seemingly hopeless situations.
In the Old Testament stories of Joseph,Moses, job, and many other people in the
scriptures gives us history of God turningpainful or hopeless situations into good.
(02:50):
So that's how Paul could say, and we know.
Now let's look at the next phrase God causesall things to work together for good.
We see here God's sovereignty, God's power,presence, attentiveness, wisdom, purpose,
goodness, and love.
Because the phrase God causes, it shows hissovereignty and his power.
He is in control of all things, and he'sable to accomplish his purposes.
(03:13):
Yeah, so God is in control.
Not your spouse, not your boss, not yourparents, not your kids.
God is in control.
And we can say that with a firmness andconfidence.
God doesn't cause the circumstances or theevent, but God causes the result - Our good.
Ross O'Hair: Now, I know during this time, obviously in Rome, there was persecution. (03:28):
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There was a lot of trouble for theseChristians there.
I mean, is that kind of why he's addressingthis?
Is that why what's going on, why he's tryingto bring this part out specifically and give
them hope?
Mark Fields: Yes, I think so, because the last podcast we were talking about suffering and groanings (03:42):
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and the suffering that they wereexperiencing through persecution or just
hardships was overwhelming.
Yeah, they needed this hope.
And now he's really, I don't know, giving itthe slam dunk or really re-emphasizing that
this is what's happening.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (03:59):
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Mark Fields: You're good is happening. (03:59):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah, that makes sense. Yep. (04:00):
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Mark Fields: So then the phrase all things shows that he is actively working in every moment in our (04:01):
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life. Not some things, not most things, ALLthings.
God is attentive and present in each momentand opportunity to bring about his purpose.
It gives me great comfort, assurance andhope to know that God is in every moment - in
every detail of my life.
He is not far away in some central commandcenter.
(04:22):
He's right there in our moment, attending toeach opportunity.
So it tells me God is present and attentiveto our lives.
I have to remind myself of that many times aday.
And when I'm aware, sometimes I envision hisnear presence.
It locks my mind into him and as my mindanchors on him, the fret, the worry, the
frustrations dissolve.
Ross O'Hair: Now, I don't know if, you know, I know for some people, when it says God causes all (04:43):
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things, there can be a hang up a little bitbecause obviously some things in life are
bad. And so is God causing those bad thingsto happen to us?
And how do we parse that out right there?
Mark Fields: Okay. He causes the good to come out of it. (04:57):
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He doesn't cause the thing.
A lot of things we cause ourselves, we causeour own misery, our own heartaches.
So that's what happens there.
Ross O'Hair: Okay, that makes sense. Yep. Sorry. (05:07):
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Keep going.
Mark Fields: Okay, so then there's the phrase work together. (05:09):
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That shows us God's wisdom and his purpose.
What we might think are separate andirrelevant events or lessons, God weaves it
all together.
He may take a process over time, ordifferent people and events in the same
moment, and work it all together.
And sometimes the good from ourcircumstances may not be evident until much
(05:30):
later. God has his purpose and his timing inmind, and we can trust him.
And then the phrase for good.
It shows us that God is good.
He's loving. He's producing good in ourlives.
So, this first part that I want to bring outto you, it emphasizes God's character.
When I know who he is and I can trust that,then that brings me to a place of rest and
(05:51):
peace and reception to what God is going todo in the moment.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, I think without that "for good" part on there, it kind of all falls apart. (05:54):
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Mark Fields: Yeah. (05:58):
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Ross O'Hair: You know, and I think that's part where it, like you talked about, it brings out that (05:58):
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hope part of it.
And we have to trust, as we've talked aboutin many of these podcasts so far, is we have
to trust that God is good.
I mean, that's that first part, becauseotherwise this verse can ring hollow when we
can look at our circumstances around usright now and things aren't, you know, like
great all the time.
We might doubt God's goodness, but when weactually trust that he is, and this verse is
(06:23):
telling us that promise, that's something wecan fall back on.
Mark Fields: Oh, I know, Ross, and we're going to look at what that good is, because what I think is (06:25):
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good is not necessarily what the greatergood is that God's working on.
My good is make the pain go away.
Make this person change.
Resolve my issue.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Fix them please. (06:35):
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Mark Fields: Yes, yes. (06:37):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (06:38):
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Mark Fields: Okay, so let's talk about the all things. (06:38):
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The word all of course includes everythingand excludes nothing.
In other words, there's not one thing inyour life that you can say that God wasn't
working his purposes.
All can be sickness, cancer, losing a job, abad back, a lost friendship, a difficult
person in your life, a driver in front ofyou who won't go when the light turns because
(06:59):
they're texting, an interruption in yourplan schedule, maybe even a sticky drawer in
your kitchen. He works all things together.
But another thing about all is it can alsobe our own decisions, even our moment when we
sin. God can work it all for good.
And this comforts me.
This brings me peace because I know that Godis working in each and every moment, and I
can look to his goodness and his purpose.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (07:21):
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Mark Fields: So let's talk about who are the recipients of this all things and these good things. (07:21):
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And it says in here that the people that arebenefiting from God's work are "to those who
love God, to those who are called accordingto his purpose." Now this can have two
meanings. And I think God works his good inboth of them.
Now the first meaning can be talking aboutsomeone who loves God and their response to
(07:41):
the circumstance in the moment.
So in other words, if you're loving God andthis is going on, then God's going to work
good. But if you're not loving God, you'rebecoming bitter.
Then maybe it's not going to work so goodfor you.
It's not going to work out the way he wantsit to.
Ross O'Hair: Like it's conditional. (07:52):
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Mark Fields: Yeah, yeah. On your response. (07:53):
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And if they choose to blame God and don'tlove him in the moment, they will not benefit
for what God is doing.
Now the second way to see it is through theunderstanding of our new creation in Christ.
As believers, as new creations, with our newnature, we contain his fullness and
everything we need for life and godliness.
This means that we, in our new natures inChrist, always love God in every moment,
(08:16):
whether you believe it or not or thinking ornot, your Spirit and His Spirit are joined as
one, and we are always loving him in everymoment, and we always benefit from his
working good in all things.
So, even with the first meaning, even if wemomentarily choose to blame God or push him
away, he still works that act of defiancetogether for good in his plan, in his time.
So, whichever way you want to interpretthis, God is going to work in this situation
(08:38):
for your good.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. For for me personally, I feel like a lot of times it's the dumb decisions or the (08:39):
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sinful decisions or the mistakes I've madein my life that have really been used the
most and taught me the most.
So it really is - There's nothing excludedor a surprise to God that we do, or we
experience that he can't then turn itaround.
Mark Fields: I would have to say most of my "all things" are my fault. (09:01):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Right. Yeah. (09:05):
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Mark Fields: Yeah. I made the own decision that caused me this pain or whatever, and I get to learn (09:06):
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through that.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Now, obviously, we're talking about mistakes and how God's working them. (09:11):
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There is still the part of the earthlyconsequences that go with that.
Mark Fields: Yes, yes. (09:18):
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It just doesn't exclude us from goingthrough the painful choices that we made and
the consequences that we made.
We need to work through those and livethrough those and learn through those.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And it's really, again, for me personally, it's been those earthly (09:28):
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consequences that have really taught mealso, you know, to learn from the things and
how God's used those as well.
Mark Fields: I don't know if we would learn if there were no consequences. (09:37):
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Ross O'Hair: Exactly. Yep. Yep. (09:39):
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Exactly.
Mark Fields: Okay, so this now takes me to the next realization that God is working good in this (09:41):
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moment. Every moment.
I can have confidence in that.
And so I can stop and rest and say, God, youare good and I love you in my spirit,
regardless of how I feel right now.
And I know that you're at work.
Ross O'Hair: Now, as you're saying that I kind of paused because I don't necessarily feel that way all (09:57):
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the time when things aren't going great.
So, is that something that you've again, wetalked about this last week with your cancer
diagnosis, you responded in a certain waythat was surprising in that moment.
And we talked a little bit through how andwhy you were able to do that because of your
(10:17):
faith in him and His continued goodness.
But how in this moment when things are notgoing good and all things do not seem like
they're working for good, how do we reallyget to the point to be like, okay, God, I'm
still going to be trusting you with that,because that feels almost impossible in the
moment.
Mark Fields: I know, I know, and it is kind of going back to last podcast about where his spirit bears (10:32):
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witness with our spirit.
There's a continuous conversation going onbetween us, our Spirit and His spirit, our
nature and his nature, whether we believe itor not, whether we feel it or not.
It's happening right now because that's areality and that's the truth of our
existence. Now, then, it takes thewherewithal, the confidence and the courage
(10:54):
to claim God. I don't feel like this, but Itrust that it's happening.
This is what you're doing in my life.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, so many of the things we talk about on this podcast are (10:59):
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concepts or like, you know, theologicalconcepts and things that are like truths.
But sometimes it can be really hard to applyand live out in that moment.
And so that's why I feel like a lot of thetimes it's that, how do you actually do that,
that that needs to be answered.
(11:19):
And so yeah, I think it's that time and timeand truth, time and truth where we learn from
it.
Mark Fields: And that's well, that's when it's even hardest. (11:23):
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When there's such pain going on, youremotions are going haywire.
And they're they're controlling everythingabout your experience.
And I think that's when you lean into God'sgoodness.
So, God, I don't understand this.
I don't feel like even talking to you rightnow, but I lean into your goodness and that
you have my best interests at heart.
And I'm going to receive the faith you cangive me or the wherewithal to just trust what
(11:47):
is real now.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. (11:48):
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Mark Fields: That's great. Okay, so let's talk about what the good is. (11:49):
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What is his purpose.
Verses 29-30.
We can get all tangled up in a lot ofdiscussion about "foreknew" and
"predestined," but we're not going to gothere today.
Yeah, I don't want this discussion intothose words to hide the meaning of what
"good" and "his purpose" are.
His purpose and what is for our good is thatwe be conformed to the image of His Son.
(12:12):
In fact, you could say, if you want to talkabout predestination, this process of
confirmation is what he predestined.
That's what he intended for us in oursanctification and growth as a Christian.
Once you come into my family, this is what Iwill work in and through you.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, it promised to complete the work he started. (12:24):
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Yeah.
Mark Fields: And so he determined in the beginning that he would continually work in a believer to bring (12:27):
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them to a greater enjoyment and expressionof Christ's life.
Philippians 1:6 Paul says, for I amconfident of this very thing, that he who
began a good work in you will perfect ituntil the day of Christ Jesus.
Then also we see in Philippians 2:13 itsays, for it is God who is at work in you,
both to will and to do for his goodpleasure.
(12:49):
So we already teach that we're complete inhim in Colossians 2:10 and 2 Peter 1:3.
We know that I'm complete as a new creation,and he's done everything he's going to do to
bring me to full righteousness, love, joy,peace, and all the fruit of the Spirit.
He has already accomplished that in me.
So if I already contain his full image, whatdo I need to conform to or change?
Ross O'Hair: Right. (13:09):
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Mark Fields: God wants to bring our thoughts, attitudes, and actions into alignment with Jesus Christ (13:10):
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and His life in us.
This is the process of sanctification, wherewe grow in the grace of the knowledge of
Jesus Christ, and we learn to live out ofChrist's life in us.
Our outside starts to look like our inside.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, it kind of reminds me of what we're going to get to in Romans 12. (13:26):
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"Do not be conformed to this world, but betransformed by the renewing of your mind."
It's kind of a precursor to that.
Mark Fields: It is, and we'll get to visit that, but this is almost in the opposite. (13:34):
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What are you going to take the shape of?
Conformity? I would want to take the shapeof the Christ life in me, instead of what the
world is doing out there.
Ross O'Hair: Gotcha. That makes sense. So, you know, we've gone over part of these three verses is (13:44):
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knowing that God - like there's this knowingpart and his character, his goodness.
Then all of that instills hope for peoplewhen they're going through troubles and
tribulations. And obviously we are therecipients of that work and all the things
that God's doing.
And now we've talked about maybe the purposein that.
(14:06):
Is there a way to take all of thesetheological ideas and maybe personalize it?
Do you have an illustration or a story fromyour life how that's kind of been brought
out?
Mark Fields: Okay. An illustration that helps me understand what this means to be conformed to (14:14):
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his image is a story of when Michelangelocreated the statue David.
The David. King David from the Bible.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (14:23):
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Mark Fields: And he chiseled on a huge, solid piece of stone until he completed a very detailed full (14:24):
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length statue of King David.
Now, chiseling stone creates heat and sparksand is also a violent blow into the stone to
remove the pieces.
But this is a picture of how intense andpainful processes can complete a desired
outcome. But listen to this.
They asked Michelangelo where he got thevision to create such a detailed masterpiece.
(14:47):
Michelangelo said, I saw the image of Davidin the stone before I started it, and I just
removed everything that wasn't David.
Ross O'Hair: That's amazing. Yeah. (14:54):
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Mark Fields: So on my personal application, as I said in the previous podcast, I don't have a great (14:55):
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history of suffering except my COVID andcancer experience and all that.
But my journey of pain or decline has reallybeen over my aging, and it probably speaks to
probably my flesh pattern and overemphasison my abilities - physically and mentally,
(15:15):
because the greater times of my sufferingjourney are in the times of decline in my
physical abilities.
You guys will get to experience that somedayahead of you maybe you already have.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, (15:24):
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Mark Fields: But I'm getting old and now I'm accepting this. (15:24):
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When I turn 40, then 50, then 60, and nowI'm 72.
Each decade brought a significant decline instrength, stamina, and abilities.
And again, I took a lot of confidence inthat.
Again, something to be learned by me.
Of what not to take confidence in.
I've always actively played sports, evenafter my college days.
(15:44):
Pick up games of anything softball,basketball, tennis, you name it.
I've always played that and exercised eversince I was 12.
I never let up, but as I age I realized Ican't beat the other guy.
I'm not the best player in the courtanymore.
And the process?
In fact, that's why I never took up golf.
If I can't shoot 70, I don't want to playit.
Yeah. And so I'm not going to I'm not goingto play 100 for, for three years in a row to
(16:06):
try and get better.
But as I age, I realize the process ofdeclining physical ability has taught me to
depend more on God, reaffirm my identity inChrist, and not to look to my own resources.
This has brought me to a place of rest,security, and peace at each stage, and my
outward striving has now more genuinelyreflected his image in me.
Ross O'Hair: So what you're saying is, obviously we're taking it back to the verses here. (16:26):
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He's working all things, including youraging for your good and how do you see that
play out? Because obviously everybody ages.
Everybody experiences this.
But for you, it's a personal difficultybecause of where, again, like you said, where
you put your your trust and your identity insome ways.
(16:49):
So how has he worked your aging process foryour good that you can see?
Mark Fields: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, most people might overcompensate. (16:55):
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They might get a hair rug or weave orwhatever, which I have not.
Or they might get in the gym more and try toget bigger and take some steroids or
whatever, and try to be bigger than theother guy.
I learned to just rest and trust the processof who I am in Christ, and I didn't stress
over it in my mind so much.
You know, comparing myself to other peopleand letting it eat me up inside.
(17:18):
I just learned to say, okay, God, this is mychance to depend on you more, to learn what
my true strength comes from, and to learnthe depth, maybe sometimes, of the flesh, of
how easily it can provoke me because I hadso much confidence in it.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, I understand what you're saying, and I get that. (17:31):
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But, you know, part of the focus of what wetalked, what you talked about earlier was how
God was working it for your good and how youwere receiving that good.
So what good has he worked out of this andhow did you receive it?
Mark Fields: Okay. Well, in realizing the process, as we said earlier in the podcast, my first (17:45):
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realization that God, you are good.
You're working on this.
You have - I'm right in your vision.
You're not somewhere else. This hasn't takenyou by surprise.
You know what's going on. And you're walkingme through this.
And again, the process was to a greaterdependency on him, a relaxed receptivity to
(18:05):
what he's doing in me.
Instead of a clenching up and aconsternation, I got to overcome this.
I got to work through this.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, that makes total sense. (18:11):
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I kind of feel like if we asked everybodythat about most of their difficult
situations, it would come to that conclusionof it created in me a greater dependency upon
God. It's like, that would be the finaltakeaway version.
Mark Fields: Yeah. (18:23):
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Ross O'Hair: Of everything. It's like, what is the good that comes from every situation? (18:24):
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Well, if we're really honest, it's a greaterdependency upon God.
Mark Fields: And I'll add to that and an enjoyment of him in the moment. (18:30):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. (18:33):
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All right. So what's your final takeawayhere as we go over these three verses here.
Mark Fields: Yeah. When we're suffering we can know that God is present in that moment. (18:38):
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We can know that he is good and he has goodpurposes for us in these painful times, as we
embrace God's goodness, presence, purpose,power, we begin to see our trial from his
perspective. We begin to see his good and wehave hope.
God's good purpose in our situations is thatwe be conformed to the image of His Son,
(18:59):
Jesus. God wants to lead us to develop ourthoughts, attitudes and actions to express
the life of Jesus in us.
Knowing God's goodness and purpose gives uspeace, hope, and ability to endure whatever
we're facing.
Ross O'Hair: Awesome. Well, Mark, I really appreciate it. (19:12):
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You know, I think these verses are reallyfamous.
Obviously. You know, Romans 8:28 is reallywell known, and I'm really trying to make it
come alive for us and teach us has beenreally great.
I appreciate that. And guys, thanks so muchfor listening today.
We really appreciate you listening to theLiving in Jesus podcast.
Again, this is part five of Romans 8.
So we're going to have part six next week.
(19:33):
Hopefully we'll see you all then and have agreat week.
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Have you ever been in a difficult situationwhere you couldn't see any good coming from
it? Maybe everything seemed to be holdingyou down and beating you up.
Maybe you wondered where God was or if heeven cared.
Maybe you felt that God has abandoned you,or maybe that he isn't even real.
These are situations that all humans have orwill face on some level, and the answers to
(00:26):
these questions will shape and mark usforever.
And God has the only answer for it.
Paul experienced tremendous suffering andaddressed his thoughts on these questions in
Romans 828 to 30.
My name is Ross O'Hare and I'm your host.
And joining me on today's discussion is Markfields.
But before we get to today's episode, let'stake a moment and listen to the Scripture.
Corrie O'Hair: Romans 8:28-30 (00:57):
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those
who love God, to those who are calledaccording to his purpose.
For those whom he foreknew, he alsopredestined to become conformed to the image
of His Son, so that he would be thefirstborn among many brethren.
And these whom he predestined, he alsocalled, and these whom he called, he also
(01:21):
justified, and these whom he justified, healso glorified."
Ross O'Hair: All right, Mark, how are you doing today? (01:34):
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Mark Fields: I'm good Ross, how are you? (01:35):
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Ross O'Hair: Good. Good to have you back. (01:36):
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We are in part five of Romans eight, so I'mjust going to hit it off to you.
Where does Paul pick us up here.
Mark Fields: All right, Ross, well, we finished the last podcast talking about hope and how hope gives (01:43):
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us the peace, joy, and perseverance toendure the present moment, no matter how
painful. And now, as we discuss this veryfamous passage, we see how these truths
continue to instill hope in us as believers.
As CFT, we teach that how we see God affectshow we see ourselves.
This in turn affects how we see others andour circumstances.
(02:07):
These three verses show us who God is.
This helps us see our circumstances inalignment with what he is doing.
And this gives us hope because we see God inour circumstances.
Verse 28 starts with and we know that God.
How did the audience know?
Well, in Romans 15 four it says, forwhatever was written in earlier times was
(02:28):
written for our instruction, so that throughperseverance and the encouragement of the
scriptures, we might have hope.
The scriptures told the Roman Christians andus today of how God worked good in the men
and women, seemingly hopeless situations.
In the Old Testament stories of Joseph,Moses, job, and many other people in the
scriptures gives us history of God turningpainful or hopeless situations into good.
(02:50):
So that's how Paul could say, and we know.
Now let's look at the next phrase God causesall things to work together for good.
We see here God's sovereignty, God's power,presence, attentiveness, wisdom, purpose,
goodness, and love.
Because the phrase God causes, it shows hissovereignty and his power.
He is in control of all things, and he'sable to accomplish his purposes.
(03:13):
Yeah, so God is in control.
Not your spouse, not your boss, not yourparents, not your kids.
God is in control.
And we can say that with a firmness andconfidence.
God doesn't cause the circumstances or theevent, but God causes the result - Our good.
Ross O'Hair: Now, I know during this time, obviously in Rome, there was persecution. (03:28):
undefined
There was a lot of trouble for theseChristians there.
I mean, is that kind of why he's addressingthis?
Is that why what's going on, why he's tryingto bring this part out specifically and give
them hope?
Mark Fields: Yes, I think so, because the last podcast we were talking about suffering and groanings (03:42):
undefined
and the suffering that they wereexperiencing through persecution or just
hardships was overwhelming.
Yeah, they needed this hope.
And now he's really, I don't know, giving itthe slam dunk or really re-emphasizing that
this is what's happening.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (03:59):
undefined
Mark Fields: You're good is happening. (03:59):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, that makes sense. Yep. (04:00):
undefined
Mark Fields: So then the phrase all things shows that he is actively working in every moment in our (04:01):
undefined
life. Not some things, not most things, ALLthings.
God is attentive and present in each momentand opportunity to bring about his purpose.
It gives me great comfort, assurance andhope to know that God is in every moment - in
every detail of my life.
He is not far away in some central commandcenter.
(04:22):
He's right there in our moment, attending toeach opportunity.
So it tells me God is present and attentiveto our lives.
I have to remind myself of that many times aday.
And when I'm aware, sometimes I envision hisnear presence.
It locks my mind into him and as my mindanchors on him, the fret, the worry, the
frustrations dissolve.
Ross O'Hair: Now, I don't know if, you know, I know for some people, when it says God causes all (04:43):
undefined
things, there can be a hang up a little bitbecause obviously some things in life are
bad. And so is God causing those bad thingsto happen to us?
And how do we parse that out right there?
Mark Fields: Okay. He causes the good to come out of it. (04:57):
undefined
He doesn't cause the thing.
A lot of things we cause ourselves, we causeour own misery, our own heartaches.
So that's what happens there.
Ross O'Hair: Okay, that makes sense. Yep. Sorry. (05:07):
undefined
Keep going.
Mark Fields: Okay, so then there's the phrase work together. (05:09):
undefined
That shows us God's wisdom and his purpose.
What we might think are separate andirrelevant events or lessons, God weaves it
all together.
He may take a process over time, ordifferent people and events in the same
moment, and work it all together.
And sometimes the good from ourcircumstances may not be evident until much
(05:30):
later. God has his purpose and his timing inmind, and we can trust him.
And then the phrase for good.
It shows us that God is good.
He's loving. He's producing good in ourlives.
So, this first part that I want to bring outto you, it emphasizes God's character.
When I know who he is and I can trust that,then that brings me to a place of rest and
(05:51):
peace and reception to what God is going todo in the moment.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, I think without that "for good" part on there, it kind of all falls apart. (05:54):
undefined
Mark Fields: Yeah. (05:58):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: You know, and I think that's part where it, like you talked about, it brings out that (05:58):
undefined
hope part of it.
And we have to trust, as we've talked aboutin many of these podcasts so far, is we have
to trust that God is good.
I mean, that's that first part, becauseotherwise this verse can ring hollow when we
can look at our circumstances around usright now and things aren't, you know, like
great all the time.
We might doubt God's goodness, but when weactually trust that he is, and this verse is
(06:23):
telling us that promise, that's something wecan fall back on.
Mark Fields: Oh, I know, Ross, and we're going to look at what that good is, because what I think is (06:25):
undefined
good is not necessarily what the greatergood is that God's working on.
My good is make the pain go away.
Make this person change.
Resolve my issue.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Fix them please. (06:35):
undefined
Mark Fields: Yes, yes. (06:37):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (06:38):
undefined
Mark Fields: Okay, so let's talk about the all things. (06:38):
undefined
The word all of course includes everythingand excludes nothing.
In other words, there's not one thing inyour life that you can say that God wasn't
working his purposes.
All can be sickness, cancer, losing a job, abad back, a lost friendship, a difficult
person in your life, a driver in front ofyou who won't go when the light turns because
(06:59):
they're texting, an interruption in yourplan schedule, maybe even a sticky drawer in
your kitchen. He works all things together.
But another thing about all is it can alsobe our own decisions, even our moment when we
sin. God can work it all for good.
And this comforts me.
This brings me peace because I know that Godis working in each and every moment, and I
can look to his goodness and his purpose.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (07:21):
undefined
Mark Fields: So let's talk about who are the recipients of this all things and these good things. (07:21):
undefined
And it says in here that the people that arebenefiting from God's work are "to those who
love God, to those who are called accordingto his purpose." Now this can have two
meanings. And I think God works his good inboth of them.
Now the first meaning can be talking aboutsomeone who loves God and their response to
(07:41):
the circumstance in the moment.
So in other words, if you're loving God andthis is going on, then God's going to work
good. But if you're not loving God, you'rebecoming bitter.
Then maybe it's not going to work so goodfor you.
It's not going to work out the way he wantsit to.
Ross O'Hair: Like it's conditional. (07:52):
undefined
Mark Fields: Yeah, yeah. On your response. (07:53):
undefined
And if they choose to blame God and don'tlove him in the moment, they will not benefit
for what God is doing.
Now the second way to see it is through theunderstanding of our new creation in Christ.
As believers, as new creations, with our newnature, we contain his fullness and
everything we need for life and godliness.
This means that we, in our new natures inChrist, always love God in every moment,
(08:16):
whether you believe it or not or thinking ornot, your Spirit and His Spirit are joined as
one, and we are always loving him in everymoment, and we always benefit from his
working good in all things.
So, even with the first meaning, even if wemomentarily choose to blame God or push him
away, he still works that act of defiancetogether for good in his plan, in his time.
So, whichever way you want to interpretthis, God is going to work in this situation
(08:38):
for your good.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. For for me personally, I feel like a lot of times it's the dumb decisions or the (08:39):
undefined
sinful decisions or the mistakes I've madein my life that have really been used the
most and taught me the most.
So it really is - There's nothing excludedor a surprise to God that we do, or we
experience that he can't then turn itaround.
Mark Fields: I would have to say most of my "all things" are my fault. (09:01):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Right. Yeah. (09:05):
undefined
Mark Fields: Yeah. I made the own decision that caused me this pain or whatever, and I get to learn (09:06):
undefined
through that.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Now, obviously, we're talking about mistakes and how God's working them. (09:11):
undefined
There is still the part of the earthlyconsequences that go with that.
Mark Fields: Yes, yes. (09:18):
undefined
It just doesn't exclude us from goingthrough the painful choices that we made and
the consequences that we made.
We need to work through those and livethrough those and learn through those.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And it's really, again, for me personally, it's been those earthly (09:28):
undefined
consequences that have really taught mealso, you know, to learn from the things and
how God's used those as well.
Mark Fields: I don't know if we would learn if there were no consequences. (09:37):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Exactly. Yep. Yep. (09:39):
undefined
Exactly.
Mark Fields: Okay, so this now takes me to the next realization that God is working good in this (09:41):
undefined
moment. Every moment.
I can have confidence in that.
And so I can stop and rest and say, God, youare good and I love you in my spirit,
regardless of how I feel right now.
And I know that you're at work.
Ross O'Hair: Now, as you're saying that I kind of paused because I don't necessarily feel that way all (09:57):
undefined
the time when things aren't going great.
So, is that something that you've again, wetalked about this last week with your cancer
diagnosis, you responded in a certain waythat was surprising in that moment.
And we talked a little bit through how andwhy you were able to do that because of your
(10:17):
faith in him and His continued goodness.
But how in this moment when things are notgoing good and all things do not seem like
they're working for good, how do we reallyget to the point to be like, okay, God, I'm
still going to be trusting you with that,because that feels almost impossible in the
moment.
Mark Fields: I know, I know, and it is kind of going back to last podcast about where his spirit bears (10:32):
undefined
witness with our spirit.
There's a continuous conversation going onbetween us, our Spirit and His spirit, our
nature and his nature, whether we believe itor not, whether we feel it or not.
It's happening right now because that's areality and that's the truth of our
existence. Now, then, it takes thewherewithal, the confidence and the courage
(10:54):
to claim God. I don't feel like this, but Itrust that it's happening.
This is what you're doing in my life.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, so many of the things we talk about on this podcast are (10:59):
undefined
concepts or like, you know, theologicalconcepts and things that are like truths.
But sometimes it can be really hard to applyand live out in that moment.
And so that's why I feel like a lot of thetimes it's that, how do you actually do that,
that that needs to be answered.
(11:19):
And so yeah, I think it's that time and timeand truth, time and truth where we learn from
it.
Mark Fields: And that's well, that's when it's even hardest. (11:23):
undefined
When there's such pain going on, youremotions are going haywire.
And they're they're controlling everythingabout your experience.
And I think that's when you lean into God'sgoodness.
So, God, I don't understand this.
I don't feel like even talking to you rightnow, but I lean into your goodness and that
you have my best interests at heart.
And I'm going to receive the faith you cangive me or the wherewithal to just trust what
(11:47):
is real now.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. (11:48):
undefined
Mark Fields: That's great. Okay, so let's talk about what the good is. (11:49):
undefined
What is his purpose.
Verses 29-30.
We can get all tangled up in a lot ofdiscussion about "foreknew" and
"predestined," but we're not going to gothere today.
Yeah, I don't want this discussion intothose words to hide the meaning of what
"good" and "his purpose" are.
His purpose and what is for our good is thatwe be conformed to the image of His Son.
(12:12):
In fact, you could say, if you want to talkabout predestination, this process of
confirmation is what he predestined.
That's what he intended for us in oursanctification and growth as a Christian.
Once you come into my family, this is what Iwill work in and through you.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, it promised to complete the work he started. (12:24):
undefined
Yeah.
Mark Fields: And so he determined in the beginning that he would continually work in a believer to bring (12:27):
undefined
them to a greater enjoyment and expressionof Christ's life.
Philippians 1:6 Paul says, for I amconfident of this very thing, that he who
began a good work in you will perfect ituntil the day of Christ Jesus.
Then also we see in Philippians 2:13 itsays, for it is God who is at work in you,
both to will and to do for his goodpleasure.
(12:49):
So we already teach that we're complete inhim in Colossians 2:10 and 2 Peter 1:3.
We know that I'm complete as a new creation,and he's done everything he's going to do to
bring me to full righteousness, love, joy,peace, and all the fruit of the Spirit.
He has already accomplished that in me.
So if I already contain his full image, whatdo I need to conform to or change?
Ross O'Hair: Right. (13:09):
undefined
Mark Fields: God wants to bring our thoughts, attitudes, and actions into alignment with Jesus Christ (13:10):
undefined
and His life in us.
This is the process of sanctification, wherewe grow in the grace of the knowledge of
Jesus Christ, and we learn to live out ofChrist's life in us.
Our outside starts to look like our inside.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, it kind of reminds me of what we're going to get to in Romans 12. (13:26):
undefined
"Do not be conformed to this world, but betransformed by the renewing of your mind."
It's kind of a precursor to that.
Mark Fields: It is, and we'll get to visit that, but this is almost in the opposite. (13:34):
undefined
What are you going to take the shape of?
Conformity? I would want to take the shapeof the Christ life in me, instead of what the
world is doing out there.
Ross O'Hair: Gotcha. That makes sense. So, you know, we've gone over part of these three verses is (13:44):
undefined
knowing that God - like there's this knowingpart and his character, his goodness.
Then all of that instills hope for peoplewhen they're going through troubles and
tribulations. And obviously we are therecipients of that work and all the things
that God's doing.
And now we've talked about maybe the purposein that.
(14:06):
Is there a way to take all of thesetheological ideas and maybe personalize it?
Do you have an illustration or a story fromyour life how that's kind of been brought
out?
Mark Fields: Okay. An illustration that helps me understand what this means to be conformed to (14:14):
undefined
his image is a story of when Michelangelocreated the statue David.
The David. King David from the Bible.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (14:23):
undefined
Mark Fields: And he chiseled on a huge, solid piece of stone until he completed a very detailed full (14:24):
undefined
length statue of King David.
Now, chiseling stone creates heat and sparksand is also a violent blow into the stone to
remove the pieces.
But this is a picture of how intense andpainful processes can complete a desired
outcome. But listen to this.
They asked Michelangelo where he got thevision to create such a detailed masterpiece.
(14:47):
Michelangelo said, I saw the image of Davidin the stone before I started it, and I just
removed everything that wasn't David.
Ross O'Hair: That's amazing. Yeah. (14:54):
undefined
Mark Fields: So on my personal application, as I said in the previous podcast, I don't have a great (14:55):
undefined
history of suffering except my COVID andcancer experience and all that.
But my journey of pain or decline has reallybeen over my aging, and it probably speaks to
probably my flesh pattern and overemphasison my abilities - physically and mentally,
(15:15):
because the greater times of my sufferingjourney are in the times of decline in my
physical abilities.
You guys will get to experience that somedayahead of you maybe you already have.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, (15:24):
undefined
Mark Fields: But I'm getting old and now I'm accepting this. (15:24):
undefined
When I turn 40, then 50, then 60, and nowI'm 72.
Each decade brought a significant decline instrength, stamina, and abilities.
And again, I took a lot of confidence inthat.
Again, something to be learned by me.
Of what not to take confidence in.
I've always actively played sports, evenafter my college days.
(15:44):
Pick up games of anything softball,basketball, tennis, you name it.
I've always played that and exercised eversince I was 12.
I never let up, but as I age I realized Ican't beat the other guy.
I'm not the best player in the courtanymore.
And the process?
In fact, that's why I never took up golf.
If I can't shoot 70, I don't want to playit.
Yeah. And so I'm not going to I'm not goingto play 100 for, for three years in a row to
(16:06):
try and get better.
But as I age, I realize the process ofdeclining physical ability has taught me to
depend more on God, reaffirm my identity inChrist, and not to look to my own resources.
This has brought me to a place of rest,security, and peace at each stage, and my
outward striving has now more genuinelyreflected his image in me.
Ross O'Hair: So what you're saying is, obviously we're taking it back to the verses here. (16:26):
undefined
He's working all things, including youraging for your good and how do you see that
play out? Because obviously everybody ages.
Everybody experiences this.
But for you, it's a personal difficultybecause of where, again, like you said, where
you put your your trust and your identity insome ways.
(16:49):
So how has he worked your aging process foryour good that you can see?
Mark Fields: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, most people might overcompensate. (16:55):
undefined
They might get a hair rug or weave orwhatever, which I have not.
Or they might get in the gym more and try toget bigger and take some steroids or
whatever, and try to be bigger than theother guy.
I learned to just rest and trust the processof who I am in Christ, and I didn't stress
over it in my mind so much.
You know, comparing myself to other peopleand letting it eat me up inside.
(17:18):
I just learned to say, okay, God, this is mychance to depend on you more, to learn what
my true strength comes from, and to learnthe depth, maybe sometimes, of the flesh, of
how easily it can provoke me because I hadso much confidence in it.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, I understand what you're saying, and I get that. (17:31):
undefined
But, you know, part of the focus of what wetalked, what you talked about earlier was how
God was working it for your good and how youwere receiving that good.
So what good has he worked out of this andhow did you receive it?
Mark Fields: Okay. Well, in realizing the process, as we said earlier in the podcast, my first (17:45):
undefined
realization that God, you are good.
You're working on this.
You have - I'm right in your vision.
You're not somewhere else. This hasn't takenyou by surprise.
You know what's going on. And you're walkingme through this.
And again, the process was to a greaterdependency on him, a relaxed receptivity to
(18:05):
what he's doing in me.
Instead of a clenching up and aconsternation, I got to overcome this.
I got to work through this.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, that makes total sense. (18:11):
undefined
I kind of feel like if we asked everybodythat about most of their difficult
situations, it would come to that conclusionof it created in me a greater dependency upon
God. It's like, that would be the finaltakeaway version.
Mark Fields: Yeah. (18:23):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Of everything. It's like, what is the good that comes from every situation? (18:24):
undefined
Well, if we're really honest, it's a greaterdependency upon God.
Mark Fields: And I'll add to that and an enjoyment of him in the moment. (18:30):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. (18:33):
undefined
All right. So what's your final takeawayhere as we go over these three verses here.
Mark Fields: Yeah. When we're suffering we can know that God is present in that moment. (18:38):
undefined
We can know that he is good and he has goodpurposes for us in these painful times, as we
embrace God's goodness, presence, purpose,power, we begin to see our trial from his
perspective. We begin to see his good and wehave hope.
God's good purpose in our situations is thatwe be conformed to the image of His Son,
(18:59):
Jesus. God wants to lead us to develop ourthoughts, attitudes and actions to express
the life of Jesus in us.
Knowing God's goodness and purpose gives uspeace, hope, and ability to endure whatever
we're facing.
Ross O'Hair: Awesome. Well, Mark, I really appreciate it. (19:12):
undefined
You know, I think these verses are reallyfamous.
Obviously. You know, Romans 8:28 is reallywell known, and I'm really trying to make it
come alive for us and teach us has beenreally great.
I appreciate that. And guys, thanks so muchfor listening today.
We really appreciate you listening to theLiving in Jesus podcast.
Again, this is part five of Romans 8.
So we're going to have part six next week.
(19:33):
Hopefully we'll see you all then and have agreat week.
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