December 26, 2024 • 23 mins
In this episode, hosts Ross O’Hair and Mark Fields tackle the tough questions of suffering, hardship, and where God is in the midst of our pain. Romans 8:18-27 highlights how all creation—humanity included—is groaning with hope, longing for God's promised restoration and glory. Mark shares a powerful personal story about facing serious illness, while Ross recounts a traumatic family crisis, both demonstrating that we’re not alone in our struggles. They show how the Holy Spirit intercedes for us when words fail, helping us persevere with genuine hope and assurance. Whether you’re currently in the thick of difficulty, or know someone who is, this episode will encourage you, strengthen your faith, and remind you that real hope makes a tangible difference—even in life’s darkest moments.
Key Verses:
Romans 8:18-27: “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”
Quotes:
“Hope is the confidence in the existence of a truth we cannot yet see, casting our endurance forward into the promises of God.”
“The Spirit groans with us in our weakness, interceding on our behalf when we cannot find the words, proving we are never alone.”
Key Points:
- Suffering is real and present, but it pales in comparison to the future glory promised by God.
- Hope, rooted in God’s promises, gives believers perseverance through trials and aligns us with His eternal plan.
- The Holy Spirit intercedes for us in our weakest moments, providing comfort and assurance of God’s care.
Outline:
- Introduction (00:00)
- Scripture Reading (01:05)
- Three Groanings (03:17)
- Present Suffering vs. Future (04:09)
- Cancer, COVID, and hope in God (05:15)
- Creation Groans (09:22)
- Believers Groan (10:44)
- The Role of Hope and Perseverance (13:18)
- The Holy Spirit Groans (20:56)
- Final Takeaway (22:03)
Theme Music:
Here Forever by Adigold Emotional Piano by GentleJammers (all rights and licensing from Envato elements)
Hosted by: Ross O'Hair Scripture Read by: Corrie O’Hair Participating Staff: Mark Fields Edited by: Ross O’Hair and Ben Brezina
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ross O'Hair:
Welcome to the Living in Jesus podcast. (00:03):
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Have you ever been in such pain or confusionthat you didn't know what to say?
That you were experiencing something sooverwhelming that you didn't have the words
to describe it, or even know how to pray forit?
Maybe you're there right now, or maybe youknow someone who's in that place as we speak.
And the question is, what do you do in thatmoment?
(00:24):
How do you cope?
How do you survive?
Well, as humans, we're all part of that clubin one way or another.
And the question is, where is God in themidst of all of that?
How is he counseling and consoling andcomforting us?
How do we experience his love and peaceduring turmoil and pain?
Today we explore these questions and muchmore as we continue our discussion in Romans
8. My name is Ross O'Hair and I'll be yourhost today.
(00:48):
And joining me on today's episode is MarkFields.
But before we get into today's discussion,let's take a moment and listen to the
Scripture.
Corrie O'Hair: Romans 8:18-27. (01:05):
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For I consider that the sufferings of thispresent time are not worthy to be compared
with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
For the anxious longing of the creationwaits eagerly for the revealing of the sons
of God. For the creation was subjected tofutility, not willingly, but because of him
(01:26):
who subjected it, in hope that the creationitself also will be set free from its slavery
to corruption, into the freedom of the gloryof the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groansand suffers the pains of childbirth together
until now. And not only this, but also weourselves, having the first fruits of the
spirit. Even we ourselves groan withinourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption
(01:50):
as sons, the redemption of our body.
For in hope we have been saved.
But hope that is seen is not hope.
For who hopes for what he already sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, withperseverance, we wait eagerly for it.
In the same way, the spirit also helps ourweakness.
For we do not know how to pray as we should,but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with
(02:14):
groanings too deep for words.
And he who searches the hearts knows whatthe mind of the spirit is, because he
intercedes for the saints according to thewill of God.
Ross O'Hair: Hey, Mark, how's it going? (02:32):
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Mark Fields: All right. Ross, how you doing? (02:33):
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Ross O'Hair: Good. All right, so we're four out of six now. (02:34):
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We're getting through this.
We're doing it. It's been awesome so far.
Okay, so last week we talked about how we'vebeen adopted into God's family, how we're his
sons and daughters and all the privilegesand amazing things that come with that and
the new identity that we get from that.
And we touched on this suffering that comesfrom us joining him in his death, burial and
(02:55):
resurrection. But in this set of verses,Paul's talking about a different kind of
suffering this time.
So maybe you can get into what he's talkingabout when we're talking about suffering
today.
Mark Fields: Okay. Yeah. Now we're going to see how suffering is experienced in a much broader (03:04):
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scope in all of creation.
In these verses, we'll see a progression.
We see three groanings.
Creation groans.
Believers groan.
Even the Holy Spirit groans.
Ross O'Hair: Okay, (03:17):
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Mark Fields: Interesting progression there. (03:17):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah. (03:19):
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Mark Fields: And again, the context of Paul writing to the Christians, there was Nero was the emperor, (03:19):
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and it was a time of persecution.
It was a very real thing.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (03:27):
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Mark Fields: And so what we want to do first, what Paul does actually, is we acknowledge the reality (03:27):
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of suffering in the present time, but we'reassured that these sufferings are
incomparable to the glory that will berevealed to believers in the future.
This gives me hope and encouragement toendure hardships.
We go through these with Jesus.
When it says, suffer with him.
We're glorified with him because we areunited with Christ.
(03:48):
We follow his same path on the earth.
Some parallel verses to this are secondCorinthians 4:17.
It says, "for momentary light affliction isproducing for us an eternal weight of glory
far beyond all comparison." This is anotherverse that says our current difficult
situation is momentary and is minimized incomparison to all the goodness God has for us
(04:08):
when he returns.
Ross O'Hair: Mm. (04:09):
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Mark Fields: And now I don't have or haven't had yet any severe or tragic suffering experiences, (04:10):
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although I've had several replacementoperations.
Got one coming up. But back in 2020, I wasdiagnosed with cancer.
Went through chemo treatments.
And in that weakened state, I caught COVIDfour times.
Put in the hospital three times.
Yeah. There were two moments when my lifewas at risk.
(04:30):
In those times, I was gasping for breath,reeling from weakness, shaking uncontrollably
with a high fever, and the shakes in thenight.
I'm laying there all by myself in thehospital room.
And as I shook and I gasped.
Well, I have a friend of mine who told methe most theological prayer you can pray in
that moment is Jesus help.
So I inhale Jesus and I exhaled help.
And I did that for, I think, a half an hour.
(04:51):
Just Jesus help. Jesus help because I knowthe suffering.
But I knew that there would be deliverance.
Just hang on to him.
So over and over again I said that.
And God reminded me in that moment that thissuffering is minor compared to his glory and
plan. And once I realized that once heconvinced me that His Spirit to my spirit, at
that moment I gained hope, peace, andreplaced all the worry and fret that was
(05:12):
adding to my breathing difficulties as well.
Ross O'Hair: Now, when you said deliverance, what did you mean? (05:15):
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How did you know there would be deliverance?
Mark Fields: Um, it was just a reminder of this too shall pass. (05:19):
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I know that's a trite cliche or whatever,but I know that through this, God has so much
more for me, and whatever is through this,well, I like Psalms 23.
"Yea, though I walk through the valley ofshadow of death" because you are with me.
So it's that knowing of his presence andthen knowing that this is a through process
(05:40):
and there will be an end to it.
And then what he brings me to will begreater in comparison to this.
Yeah.
Ross O'Hair: How did you deal with it? Because I know, obviously there was no guarantee that you (05:46):
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were going to make it through that.
Mark Fields: No. (05:50):
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Ross O'Hair: So how did the assurance and that feeling of I possibly could get through this, how did (05:51):
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you deal with that little caveat?
Mark Fields: Well, it's interesting. It's a determination I made even up front. (05:58):
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When Linda and I came home with thediagnosis in March of 2020 of cancer, and
there's no cure to this type of lymphoma,and at the diagnosis in was like four years,
but it's been stretched out because of whatthey've done to treat it and all that.
And she was well, it did affected herdeeply.
And she looked over at me in the chair andsays, you're not afraid, are you?
(06:20):
And I said, I died 50 years ago.
I'm already dead spiritually.
You know my old self.
I said, no, because death.
And I know that sounds like, whoa, it's veryspiritual cliché, but I had that confirmation
in my heart that even if I die, even if thisdoesn't work out, I know where I am going and
I know that I've been with God.
I am with God, and I will be with God.
Ross O'Hair: Do you think - Do you feel like that's just come with time and experience, or do you feel (06:41):
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like that's something like, how did youarrive at that point?
Because even that seems somewhat foreign tome.
Mark Fields: I know I was 68 and it has taken years for that to develop. (06:51):
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Now we might take this out because that maydiscourage people.
But anyways, as you stand on his promises,feel more of his presence and your worth.
And like we just talked about last episode,that he's my dad and I'm his child.
As you just live in that walk in that eachday, it just builds up and you can't - i
(07:14):
guess you can't describe or identify abreakthrough moment.
Sure. It's just a building of confidence, ofknowing where I'm going and what God has for
me.
Ross O'Hair: Did you, were you aware of that confidence before the diagnosis, or did that make that (07:22):
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confidence come to the surface once thatdiagnosis was given?
Mark Fields: Yeah. No, it was there. (07:31):
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It was there. It's not like I had had topull this out of a hat or grab onto it.
It was there. Now I just got to declare itbecause now it may happen.
Ross O'Hair: Well, I asked that question because I know there's been moments where I've been faced (07:39):
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with turmoil or something going on, and I'mnot necessarily surprised by my faith or the
assurance I have, but I wasn't necessarilyaware of that before I was faced with the
critical moment. Does that make sense?
So it was almost like, here's the criticalmoment.
Oh yeah, you're right. This is what Ibelieve and stand on.
(08:00):
And I may not have been as aware of thatbefore it was put into my face.
Yeah, yeah. So you already had that beforeyou knew that that's how it was gonna be.
So the diagnosis didn't change that.
It just reassured you. What you.
Mark Fields: Right, right. I could stand on what I'd already attained to. (08:10):
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Ross O'Hair: Gotcha. (08:13):
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Mark Fields: In that realization. (08:13):
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Ross O'Hair: So, I mean, that makes a big difference. (08:14):
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Obviously, you know, we're talking aboutsuffering and glory, the glory that you were
experiencing here and now.
And the future glory had convinced you thatthe suffering was not overwhelming.
Mark Fields: Yeah. And going back to a verse of Philippians 1:21, Paul says, for me to live (08:27):
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is Christ, to die is gain.
I mean, I have them either way, and thisbody here is just going through the whole
process. And so I can enjoy him as much nowwith a broke down body, so to speak, as I
will then. So that assurance of that futurerelationship and companionship with him.
(08:48):
So, then we get into verses 20-22 and ittalks about the whole experience of creation.
Again, I used to didn't think I knew whatthat meant, and I just kind of went past it
because I want to get I want to get toRomans 8:28 and I want to get to that one.
So I skimmed over this, but as I dove intoit, I realized this is a whole process of all
of creation. Creation was designed to livein harmony and dependent on our creator's
(09:10):
provision and goodness.
We see here that all creation is suffering,longing for redemption.
And I think this passage applies to thehuman race, who are apart from Christ and the
animal kingdom.
Ross O'Hair: Sure, (09:22):
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Mark Fields: I know that might be a little twist, but, you know, we live in a fallen world and the (09:22):
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consequences are causing suffering in bothhumans and animals.
None of us were made to live in suchconflict and desperate survival.
So we clearly see this in humanity withwars, violence, and hate.
But we don't think about the animals thatare living in a system that has pretty much
the same. And it's all out of whack.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah. (09:43):
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Mark Fields: I think this is why we have a picture in Isaiah 11:6 that says, and "the wolf will (09:44):
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dwell with the lamb, the leopard will liedown with the young goat, the calf and the
young lion, and the fatted steer together,"so predator and prey will be in harmony.
"Even the child will lead them." So that'sjust a picture of we're made for harmony.
We're made for alignment, enjoyment.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, I love that picture. I mean, it really does show you the chaos and out of alignment (10:05):
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that we currently have and how, man, howradically different things will be.
Mark Fields: Yeah. So then going on verses 23-25, the anticipation moves from creation to (10:13):
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believers. Now we see that believers aregroaning.
And again, the audience of Romans aredescribed as the "first fruits of the
spirit," which refers to the beginning, themuch to come.
I think Paul called them out of this.
You're the first fruit of the spirit to tellthem you're the one of many, down through the
(10:34):
ages, who through your testimony, throughyour witness, they're going to come to
Christ. And there'll be more and there'll bemore.
So you're only the beginning of what I'mgoing to do in all of creation.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah. (10:44):
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Mark Fields: Now, this description offers hope, as those early believers could anticipate in the (10:44):
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multiplication of many believers to come,the vision and hope of multitudes of future
believers gave them encouragement and hopeto endure the present pain.
I mean, imagine telling yourself, okay, mydeath on this torch, that it's in the
Colosseum or whatever, this may result inthe salvation of many others.
(11:05):
A similar description to that is in Hebrewschapter 12, verses one and two, where it
says, "fixing our eyes on Jesus, the authorand perfecter of faith, who for the joy set
before him endured the cross, despising theshame, and has sat down at the right hand of
the throne of God." Now I think God mayhave, i can't just a speculation, gifted
Jesus with a glimpse.
You're suffering. You're going through muchpain in your humanity.
(11:27):
Let me give you a glimpse.
Here's what's going to happen from all this.
Maybe he even saw us sitting here today.
And the effects of this podcast, or thewitness of many of how many will come to
Christ, come to God because of Christ'sdeath.
And so for that joy that allowed him theability to endure it and keep going.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Now I have a question As you keep going here, you know, you said that even believers (11:44):
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are groaning. You know, we are groaning, Ithink, in a different way.
And maybe you can expound on this if I'mcorrect.
You know, Animal Kingdom is groaning becausethey're not redeemed yet.
The the creation itself is groaning becausethey're not redeemed yet.
But as believers were redeemed now we are apart of his redeemed family.
(12:07):
So how do we how do we as redeemed peoplegroan in our present time?
Mark Fields: Yeah, well, we as redeemed and fully complete believers, we have that all settled, but we (12:13):
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live in an environment in a world - a fallenworld, and people are cruel and harsh around
us and our bodies deteriorate and such likethat.
So the pain of this human life is what cancause us, in our humanity, to really groan.
Ross O'Hair: And I think that's maybe where you're where you were talking about earlier. (12:30):
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But we have that assurance, though, becausewe're redeemed.
It's different for us because we have Christliving in us.
And he's already, because we're redeemed, wecan handle that suffering differently.
Mark Fields: Yes. (12:41):
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Ross O'Hair: Okay. (12:42):
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Mark Fields: Yes. That helps and gives encouragement. (12:42):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (12:44):
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Mark Fields: So this offers me another aspect of hope. (12:44):
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Not only will all of creation be restored toharmony, but our physical and dying bodies
will be given new, glorified, incorruptiblebodies.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (12:53):
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Mark Fields: This goes back to the encouragement given in verse 18, where we're told that this present (12:54):
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suffering is nothing compared to our futurestate of glory and delight in God.
This hope, and I think that's a key wordwhich we'll get into, was also emphasized in
Romans 5:3-5, where hope is the part of thereason we can exult or rejoice in our
tribulations. So now, today, in oursuffering, we can rejoice because we have
(13:15):
hope, and hope does not disappoint.
Now let's move on to verse 24.
Paul explains hope.
Hope, I think, is a companion of faith.
Faith is focused more on the present.
Hope is directed more in the future.
They both have the concept of havingcomplete confidence in the existence of a
truth that you can't prove or see.
Yeah. But I think hope is cast more towardthe future, a positive outcome that gives us
(13:38):
the ability to endure what we're goingthrough today.
And then comes Perseverance.
Perseverance is the ability to endure.
Now here's two examples of what hope doesfor perseverance.
One is the football example.
The sports example for the guys.
I played college football at Georgia Tech 50years ago.
Yeah, I remember the practices, how gruelingand exhausting they were.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (14:00):
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Mark Fields: Oh, just they beat you down, they wore you out, and they were training you. (14:01):
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I felt like giving up or backing off manytimes.
But in those practices, we were trainingourselves to have a greater stamina and
endurance to succeed in the game ahead.
Our ability to play better than the otherteam and win the game depended a lot on our
ability to perform at the highest level, andnot let the physical or mental fatigue reduce
(14:21):
that performance.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (14:23):
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Mark Fields: So I persevered in the painful practices because hope kept me going. (14:23):
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Hope in a future game.
Hope in an outcome. Hope in a winningresult.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (14:30):
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Mark Fields: Yeah. Now that's for the guys. (14:30):
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I guess another analogy is a woman givingbirth.
Yeah. In fact, Paul alludes to this in firstTimothy 2:15.
When a woman is in labor and delivering herchild, there's a great pain - a lot of
effort. And not that I know anything aboutthat, and you don't either, Ross.
But however, she can endure because sheknows there will be delivery, there will be a
(14:51):
relief. And then again, seeing their babyright there in their lap.
And with that delivery comes relief.
And then comes joy of seeing her newbornbaby.
Her expectation, her hope keeps her goingand pushing with the hope and delivery.
We have confidence in the existence offuture glory, redemption, delight, and hope
brings eager anticipation and perseverance.
Ross O'Hair: So you know, as I hear this, there's so much packed into it because obviously, Paul is (15:10):
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assuring us that heaven and the future gloryof our bodies and the there will be no more
crying, no more pain, like all of that isobviously an incredible hope.
And I love how you brought up faith earlier,because there is also a present time and God
(15:34):
is not asking us, I don't think, to justtrudge and suffer through this life so that
we can experience that hope later.
I think it's a "both" "and" you know, likewe can experience the hope and the joy and
the peace now as well as anticipating howgreat it will be in heaven when we won't have
so much suffering in agony and despair,because everything will have changed at that
(15:58):
point in time. And as I'm thinking aboutthis, I think about it personally.
You know, a couple of years ago, my wifeCorey was involved in a pretty serious, a
very serious ATV accident, and she had braindamage and a fractured skull and brain
bleeding and a fractured pelvis.
And, I mean it was very severe, and it wastouch and go there for a long time.
(16:19):
She was in ICU for six days and in thehospital total for ten.
And she had seizures in the hospital.
I mean it was a lot going on and I, I wasvery marked by the trauma of it.
And obviously she went through a physicaltrauma.
But watching her created a lot of emotionaltrauma for me.
Mark Fields: Yeah. (16:40):
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Ross O'Hair: And, you know, I think about that and the difficulty and the suffering that she was (16:40):
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going through and my inability to changeanything for that or have any control over
it. I was in a very helpless state.
Obviously, she was the one going through it,and she dealt with the pain, and she dealt
with all of that difficulty.
But I can only, you know, express myexperience of it.
(17:02):
And when I think about the hope, I in thatmoment, and this is just being very
transparent here, in that moment, the hopeof heaven wasn't something that was like, oh,
yes, this is making this all okay right now.
I'm great. This is fine.
Yeah. Um, and that's kind of why I asked youearlier when you got that diagnosis, like,
(17:23):
how did you get to that point?
Because for me, I needed immediate hope andassurance and peace.
And that's what I was hoping for - wantingin that moment.
And it was interesting how God providedthat, because I think it's going to be
different for everybody. So this is not howGod there's not a formula, how God's going to
provide it for someone else as they're goingthrough it.
(17:44):
But there were certain moments and people,and gestures that people did, or, you know,
even just like songs that someone would sendme of, like reminding me of God's goodness
and his plan for my life.
And one of the things that really, reallystood out to me was what somebody said was,
think about how much I love Corrie and allthe agony that I'm feeling about what she's
(18:07):
going through, and then think about how muchGod loves her and his undying, incredible
love for her.
And that was not a guarantee that she wasgoing to make it through, because there were,
again, like you had, touch and go momentswith your COVID in the hospital.
There were touch and go moments with Corriewhere she may not have made it.
So it wasn't an assurance, okay.
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Corrie is going to be okay.
But what it was is that there was anassurance and a hope that the God of the
universe loved her even more than I couldimagine.
And because I knew how I felt and all theagony I was going through, and knowing that
God was relating to me in that, provided mepeace and assurance that even if the worst
(18:48):
happened, that God was not there, justletting it happen, that he didn't care, but
that he was there groaning with me andcrying with me and suffering with me.
And it was incredible because as I lookedback, what it did, is it created this
intimacy with God where I saw him as someonewalking through this with me, not someone
(19:12):
hurling disaster at me, or uncaring or evenjust like, well, if she dies, you got to deal
with it and you just got to move on or yougot to, it was like, I'm with you.
And not only am I with you, I'm with herright now.
And it was it was that hope and that peacethat really was drove, you know, got me
through those times.
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And even after she made it out of thehospital and things were looking better.
I had this overwhelming sense of joy to beable to just care for her and take care of
her, because I knew how valuable and amazingshe was in God's eyes and in my eyes.
And it radically changed the way that Irelated to her and the joy that it brought me
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to serve her.
So, I mean, it was just again, I wanted toshare that because I felt like this hope of
tragedy and suffering that we all feel inthis life, there's no guarantee that it works
out and someone makes it through, like Corydid for me.
But there is a guarantee that God is withus, and that he cares even more than we could
(20:20):
imagine about what we're going through.
And that assurance that co-laboring co-suffering with us is incredible.
Mark Fields: Amen. (20:30):
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Ross O'Hair: So hopefully that'll help somebody. (20:31):
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Hopefully that'll give some clarity aboutwhat we're talking about today.
The hope that God gives, because the HolySpirit truly, truly walked through that with
me and in one of the most, the mostdifficult moments of my life, he was there
and there was no doubt in my mind.
Mark Fields: Yeah. (20:50):
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Ross O'Hair: So how do we wrap this up for everybody, Mark? (20:51):
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How do we bring this to a head?
Mark Fields: Well, let me wrap this up with one more explanation. (20:54):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (20:56):
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Mark Fields: Because I love the way this passage ends with the groanings we saw the creation groans, (20:56):
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believers groan, now we see the HolySpirit's groaning.
And it gives us that hope, thatencouragement that you're not in this alone.
You may be at such a loss for words youdon't even know what to pray for.
You don't even know what to say. You're outof words and it says the Holy Spirit, at that
moment, not only as we said last episode ishe convincing you that you're his child,
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (21:18):
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Mark Fields: He now is interceding for you, and you don't even know what that means, but that gives you (21:19):
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hope. That gives you encouragement.
That gives you, Wow! He is with me.
The Trinity is with me, and they're pullingfor me.
And he's praying things I can't even thinkof.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Exactly. (21:31):
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Mark Fields: And it's all for my good because it's according to God's will. (21:31):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. That's awesome! (21:33):
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That's amazing! And again, I can't help butpersonalize that.
It's like the Holy Spirit is there with youas you walk through this, and he's going to
show himself to you in a unique and intimatepersonal way.
It won't be exactly like it was for me, andit won't be exactly like it is for you, Mark.
But that's the amazing part of how Godworks, is he's going...
(21:56):
He knows how to connect with you in thosemoments to provide assurance and hope.
Yep. So how do we wrap it up?
Mark Fields: All right. Well, so sin has created a destructive and painful existence instead of (22:03):
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what God designed. The whole world isexperiencing pain and suffering due to this.
And it's not God's design.
God's design was for us to live in harmonyand peace and love.
And so as we work through the existingcondition, we can have hope that brings
peace, joy, and perseverance in oursufferings.
(22:23):
Our hope, that comes from God, lies in thepromises that God will restore his design for
creation someday.
And like you said before, he's with us ineach step of the way.
Yeah. And so when we were so distraught thatwe don't even know how to pray, God's Spirit
is in us, with us and for us.
The Holy Spirit expresses this to the fatherexactly what we need in the moment.
Knowing this truth brings us great comfort -brings us great hope that endures.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Well, Mark, thanks so much. (22:46):
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I mean, this is this has been one that'sreally impactful to me.
And I've really loved listening to what thepoints you've brought out and learning from
you, and so I really appreciate your timedoing this.
Mark Fields: Thank you Ross. (22:57):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah guys, thanks so much for listening. (22:58):
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This is the fourth episode of six for Romans8.
So we've got a couple more left.
And guys, thanks so much for listening totoday's episode.
We hope you've enjoyed the Living in Jesuspodcast, and we'll see you next week.
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Have you ever been in such pain or confusionthat you didn't know what to say?
That you were experiencing something sooverwhelming that you didn't have the words
to describe it, or even know how to pray forit?
Maybe you're there right now, or maybe youknow someone who's in that place as we speak.
And the question is, what do you do in thatmoment?
(00:24):
How do you cope?
How do you survive?
Well, as humans, we're all part of that clubin one way or another.
And the question is, where is God in themidst of all of that?
How is he counseling and consoling andcomforting us?
How do we experience his love and peaceduring turmoil and pain?
Today we explore these questions and muchmore as we continue our discussion in Romans
8. My name is Ross O'Hair and I'll be yourhost today.
(00:48):
And joining me on today's episode is MarkFields.
But before we get into today's discussion,let's take a moment and listen to the
Scripture.
Corrie O'Hair: Romans 8:18-27. (01:05):
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For I consider that the sufferings of thispresent time are not worthy to be compared
with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
For the anxious longing of the creationwaits eagerly for the revealing of the sons
of God. For the creation was subjected tofutility, not willingly, but because of him
(01:26):
who subjected it, in hope that the creationitself also will be set free from its slavery
to corruption, into the freedom of the gloryof the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groansand suffers the pains of childbirth together
until now. And not only this, but also weourselves, having the first fruits of the
spirit. Even we ourselves groan withinourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption
(01:50):
as sons, the redemption of our body.
For in hope we have been saved.
But hope that is seen is not hope.
For who hopes for what he already sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, withperseverance, we wait eagerly for it.
In the same way, the spirit also helps ourweakness.
For we do not know how to pray as we should,but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with
(02:14):
groanings too deep for words.
And he who searches the hearts knows whatthe mind of the spirit is, because he
intercedes for the saints according to thewill of God.
Ross O'Hair: Hey, Mark, how's it going? (02:32):
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Mark Fields: All right. Ross, how you doing? (02:33):
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Ross O'Hair: Good. All right, so we're four out of six now. (02:34):
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We're getting through this.
We're doing it. It's been awesome so far.
Okay, so last week we talked about how we'vebeen adopted into God's family, how we're his
sons and daughters and all the privilegesand amazing things that come with that and
the new identity that we get from that.
And we touched on this suffering that comesfrom us joining him in his death, burial and
(02:55):
resurrection. But in this set of verses,Paul's talking about a different kind of
suffering this time.
So maybe you can get into what he's talkingabout when we're talking about suffering
today.
Mark Fields: Okay. Yeah. Now we're going to see how suffering is experienced in a much broader (03:04):
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scope in all of creation.
In these verses, we'll see a progression.
We see three groanings.
Creation groans.
Believers groan.
Even the Holy Spirit groans.
Ross O'Hair: Okay, (03:17):
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Mark Fields: Interesting progression there. (03:17):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah. (03:19):
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Mark Fields: And again, the context of Paul writing to the Christians, there was Nero was the emperor, (03:19):
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and it was a time of persecution.
It was a very real thing.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (03:27):
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Mark Fields: And so what we want to do first, what Paul does actually, is we acknowledge the reality (03:27):
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of suffering in the present time, but we'reassured that these sufferings are
incomparable to the glory that will berevealed to believers in the future.
This gives me hope and encouragement toendure hardships.
We go through these with Jesus.
When it says, suffer with him.
We're glorified with him because we areunited with Christ.
(03:48):
We follow his same path on the earth.
Some parallel verses to this are secondCorinthians 4:17.
It says, "for momentary light affliction isproducing for us an eternal weight of glory
far beyond all comparison." This is anotherverse that says our current difficult
situation is momentary and is minimized incomparison to all the goodness God has for us
(04:08):
when he returns.
Ross O'Hair: Mm. (04:09):
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Mark Fields: And now I don't have or haven't had yet any severe or tragic suffering experiences, (04:10):
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although I've had several replacementoperations.
Got one coming up. But back in 2020, I wasdiagnosed with cancer.
Went through chemo treatments.
And in that weakened state, I caught COVIDfour times.
Put in the hospital three times.
Yeah. There were two moments when my lifewas at risk.
(04:30):
In those times, I was gasping for breath,reeling from weakness, shaking uncontrollably
with a high fever, and the shakes in thenight.
I'm laying there all by myself in thehospital room.
And as I shook and I gasped.
Well, I have a friend of mine who told methe most theological prayer you can pray in
that moment is Jesus help.
So I inhale Jesus and I exhaled help.
And I did that for, I think, a half an hour.
(04:51):
Just Jesus help. Jesus help because I knowthe suffering.
But I knew that there would be deliverance.
Just hang on to him.
So over and over again I said that.
And God reminded me in that moment that thissuffering is minor compared to his glory and
plan. And once I realized that once heconvinced me that His Spirit to my spirit, at
that moment I gained hope, peace, andreplaced all the worry and fret that was
(05:12):
adding to my breathing difficulties as well.
Ross O'Hair: Now, when you said deliverance, what did you mean? (05:15):
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How did you know there would be deliverance?
Mark Fields: Um, it was just a reminder of this too shall pass. (05:19):
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I know that's a trite cliche or whatever,but I know that through this, God has so much
more for me, and whatever is through this,well, I like Psalms 23.
"Yea, though I walk through the valley ofshadow of death" because you are with me.
So it's that knowing of his presence andthen knowing that this is a through process
(05:40):
and there will be an end to it.
And then what he brings me to will begreater in comparison to this.
Yeah.
Ross O'Hair: How did you deal with it? Because I know, obviously there was no guarantee that you (05:46):
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were going to make it through that.
Mark Fields: No. (05:50):
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Ross O'Hair: So how did the assurance and that feeling of I possibly could get through this, how did (05:51):
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you deal with that little caveat?
Mark Fields: Well, it's interesting. It's a determination I made even up front. (05:58):
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When Linda and I came home with thediagnosis in March of 2020 of cancer, and
there's no cure to this type of lymphoma,and at the diagnosis in was like four years,
but it's been stretched out because of whatthey've done to treat it and all that.
And she was well, it did affected herdeeply.
And she looked over at me in the chair andsays, you're not afraid, are you?
(06:20):
And I said, I died 50 years ago.
I'm already dead spiritually.
You know my old self.
I said, no, because death.
And I know that sounds like, whoa, it's veryspiritual cliché, but I had that confirmation
in my heart that even if I die, even if thisdoesn't work out, I know where I am going and
I know that I've been with God.
I am with God, and I will be with God.
Ross O'Hair: Do you think - Do you feel like that's just come with time and experience, or do you feel (06:41):
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like that's something like, how did youarrive at that point?
Because even that seems somewhat foreign tome.
Mark Fields: I know I was 68 and it has taken years for that to develop. (06:51):
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Now we might take this out because that maydiscourage people.
But anyways, as you stand on his promises,feel more of his presence and your worth.
And like we just talked about last episode,that he's my dad and I'm his child.
As you just live in that walk in that eachday, it just builds up and you can't - i
(07:14):
guess you can't describe or identify abreakthrough moment.
Sure. It's just a building of confidence, ofknowing where I'm going and what God has for
me.
Ross O'Hair: Did you, were you aware of that confidence before the diagnosis, or did that make that (07:22):
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confidence come to the surface once thatdiagnosis was given?
Mark Fields: Yeah. No, it was there. (07:31):
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It was there. It's not like I had had topull this out of a hat or grab onto it.
It was there. Now I just got to declare itbecause now it may happen.
Ross O'Hair: Well, I asked that question because I know there's been moments where I've been faced (07:39):
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with turmoil or something going on, and I'mnot necessarily surprised by my faith or the
assurance I have, but I wasn't necessarilyaware of that before I was faced with the
critical moment. Does that make sense?
So it was almost like, here's the criticalmoment.
Oh yeah, you're right. This is what Ibelieve and stand on.
(08:00):
And I may not have been as aware of thatbefore it was put into my face.
Yeah, yeah. So you already had that beforeyou knew that that's how it was gonna be.
So the diagnosis didn't change that.
It just reassured you. What you.
Mark Fields: Right, right. I could stand on what I'd already attained to. (08:10):
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Ross O'Hair: Gotcha. (08:13):
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Mark Fields: In that realization. (08:13):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: So, I mean, that makes a big difference. (08:14):
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Obviously, you know, we're talking aboutsuffering and glory, the glory that you were
experiencing here and now.
And the future glory had convinced you thatthe suffering was not overwhelming.
Mark Fields: Yeah. And going back to a verse of Philippians 1:21, Paul says, for me to live (08:27):
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is Christ, to die is gain.
I mean, I have them either way, and thisbody here is just going through the whole
process. And so I can enjoy him as much nowwith a broke down body, so to speak, as I
will then. So that assurance of that futurerelationship and companionship with him.
(08:48):
So, then we get into verses 20-22 and ittalks about the whole experience of creation.
Again, I used to didn't think I knew whatthat meant, and I just kind of went past it
because I want to get I want to get toRomans 8:28 and I want to get to that one.
So I skimmed over this, but as I dove intoit, I realized this is a whole process of all
of creation. Creation was designed to livein harmony and dependent on our creator's
(09:10):
provision and goodness.
We see here that all creation is suffering,longing for redemption.
And I think this passage applies to thehuman race, who are apart from Christ and the
animal kingdom.
Ross O'Hair: Sure, (09:22):
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Mark Fields: I know that might be a little twist, but, you know, we live in a fallen world and the (09:22):
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consequences are causing suffering in bothhumans and animals.
None of us were made to live in suchconflict and desperate survival.
So we clearly see this in humanity withwars, violence, and hate.
But we don't think about the animals thatare living in a system that has pretty much
the same. And it's all out of whack.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah. (09:43):
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Mark Fields: I think this is why we have a picture in Isaiah 11:6 that says, and "the wolf will (09:44):
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dwell with the lamb, the leopard will liedown with the young goat, the calf and the
young lion, and the fatted steer together,"so predator and prey will be in harmony.
"Even the child will lead them." So that'sjust a picture of we're made for harmony.
We're made for alignment, enjoyment.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, I love that picture. I mean, it really does show you the chaos and out of alignment (10:05):
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that we currently have and how, man, howradically different things will be.
Mark Fields: Yeah. So then going on verses 23-25, the anticipation moves from creation to (10:13):
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believers. Now we see that believers aregroaning.
And again, the audience of Romans aredescribed as the "first fruits of the
spirit," which refers to the beginning, themuch to come.
I think Paul called them out of this.
You're the first fruit of the spirit to tellthem you're the one of many, down through the
(10:34):
ages, who through your testimony, throughyour witness, they're going to come to
Christ. And there'll be more and there'll bemore.
So you're only the beginning of what I'mgoing to do in all of creation.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah. (10:44):
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Mark Fields: Now, this description offers hope, as those early believers could anticipate in the (10:44):
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multiplication of many believers to come,the vision and hope of multitudes of future
believers gave them encouragement and hopeto endure the present pain.
I mean, imagine telling yourself, okay, mydeath on this torch, that it's in the
Colosseum or whatever, this may result inthe salvation of many others.
(11:05):
A similar description to that is in Hebrewschapter 12, verses one and two, where it
says, "fixing our eyes on Jesus, the authorand perfecter of faith, who for the joy set
before him endured the cross, despising theshame, and has sat down at the right hand of
the throne of God." Now I think God mayhave, i can't just a speculation, gifted
Jesus with a glimpse.
You're suffering. You're going through muchpain in your humanity.
(11:27):
Let me give you a glimpse.
Here's what's going to happen from all this.
Maybe he even saw us sitting here today.
And the effects of this podcast, or thewitness of many of how many will come to
Christ, come to God because of Christ'sdeath.
And so for that joy that allowed him theability to endure it and keep going.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Now I have a question As you keep going here, you know, you said that even believers (11:44):
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are groaning. You know, we are groaning, Ithink, in a different way.
And maybe you can expound on this if I'mcorrect.
You know, Animal Kingdom is groaning becausethey're not redeemed yet.
The the creation itself is groaning becausethey're not redeemed yet.
But as believers were redeemed now we are apart of his redeemed family.
(12:07):
So how do we how do we as redeemed peoplegroan in our present time?
Mark Fields: Yeah, well, we as redeemed and fully complete believers, we have that all settled, but we (12:13):
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live in an environment in a world - a fallenworld, and people are cruel and harsh around
us and our bodies deteriorate and such likethat.
So the pain of this human life is what cancause us, in our humanity, to really groan.
Ross O'Hair: And I think that's maybe where you're where you were talking about earlier. (12:30):
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But we have that assurance, though, becausewe're redeemed.
It's different for us because we have Christliving in us.
And he's already, because we're redeemed, wecan handle that suffering differently.
Mark Fields: Yes. (12:41):
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Ross O'Hair: Okay. (12:42):
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Mark Fields: Yes. That helps and gives encouragement. (12:42):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (12:44):
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Mark Fields: So this offers me another aspect of hope. (12:44):
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Not only will all of creation be restored toharmony, but our physical and dying bodies
will be given new, glorified, incorruptiblebodies.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (12:53):
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Mark Fields: This goes back to the encouragement given in verse 18, where we're told that this present (12:54):
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suffering is nothing compared to our futurestate of glory and delight in God.
This hope, and I think that's a key wordwhich we'll get into, was also emphasized in
Romans 5:3-5, where hope is the part of thereason we can exult or rejoice in our
tribulations. So now, today, in oursuffering, we can rejoice because we have
(13:15):
hope, and hope does not disappoint.
Now let's move on to verse 24.
Paul explains hope.
Hope, I think, is a companion of faith.
Faith is focused more on the present.
Hope is directed more in the future.
They both have the concept of havingcomplete confidence in the existence of a
truth that you can't prove or see.
Yeah. But I think hope is cast more towardthe future, a positive outcome that gives us
(13:38):
the ability to endure what we're goingthrough today.
And then comes Perseverance.
Perseverance is the ability to endure.
Now here's two examples of what hope doesfor perseverance.
One is the football example.
The sports example for the guys.
I played college football at Georgia Tech 50years ago.
Yeah, I remember the practices, how gruelingand exhausting they were.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (14:00):
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Mark Fields: Oh, just they beat you down, they wore you out, and they were training you. (14:01):
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I felt like giving up or backing off manytimes.
But in those practices, we were trainingourselves to have a greater stamina and
endurance to succeed in the game ahead.
Our ability to play better than the otherteam and win the game depended a lot on our
ability to perform at the highest level, andnot let the physical or mental fatigue reduce
(14:21):
that performance.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (14:23):
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Mark Fields: So I persevered in the painful practices because hope kept me going. (14:23):
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Hope in a future game.
Hope in an outcome. Hope in a winningresult.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (14:30):
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Mark Fields: Yeah. Now that's for the guys. (14:30):
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I guess another analogy is a woman givingbirth.
Yeah. In fact, Paul alludes to this in firstTimothy 2:15.
When a woman is in labor and delivering herchild, there's a great pain - a lot of
effort. And not that I know anything aboutthat, and you don't either, Ross.
But however, she can endure because sheknows there will be delivery, there will be a
(14:51):
relief. And then again, seeing their babyright there in their lap.
And with that delivery comes relief.
And then comes joy of seeing her newbornbaby.
Her expectation, her hope keeps her goingand pushing with the hope and delivery.
We have confidence in the existence offuture glory, redemption, delight, and hope
brings eager anticipation and perseverance.
Ross O'Hair: So you know, as I hear this, there's so much packed into it because obviously, Paul is (15:10):
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assuring us that heaven and the future gloryof our bodies and the there will be no more
crying, no more pain, like all of that isobviously an incredible hope.
And I love how you brought up faith earlier,because there is also a present time and God
(15:34):
is not asking us, I don't think, to justtrudge and suffer through this life so that
we can experience that hope later.
I think it's a "both" "and" you know, likewe can experience the hope and the joy and
the peace now as well as anticipating howgreat it will be in heaven when we won't have
so much suffering in agony and despair,because everything will have changed at that
(15:58):
point in time. And as I'm thinking aboutthis, I think about it personally.
You know, a couple of years ago, my wifeCorey was involved in a pretty serious, a
very serious ATV accident, and she had braindamage and a fractured skull and brain
bleeding and a fractured pelvis.
And, I mean it was very severe, and it wastouch and go there for a long time.
(16:19):
She was in ICU for six days and in thehospital total for ten.
And she had seizures in the hospital.
I mean it was a lot going on and I, I wasvery marked by the trauma of it.
And obviously she went through a physicaltrauma.
But watching her created a lot of emotionaltrauma for me.
Mark Fields: Yeah. (16:40):
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Ross O'Hair: And, you know, I think about that and the difficulty and the suffering that she was (16:40):
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going through and my inability to changeanything for that or have any control over
it. I was in a very helpless state.
Obviously, she was the one going through it,and she dealt with the pain, and she dealt
with all of that difficulty.
But I can only, you know, express myexperience of it.
(17:02):
And when I think about the hope, I in thatmoment, and this is just being very
transparent here, in that moment, the hopeof heaven wasn't something that was like, oh,
yes, this is making this all okay right now.
I'm great. This is fine.
Yeah. Um, and that's kind of why I asked youearlier when you got that diagnosis, like,
(17:23):
how did you get to that point?
Because for me, I needed immediate hope andassurance and peace.
And that's what I was hoping for - wantingin that moment.
And it was interesting how God providedthat, because I think it's going to be
different for everybody. So this is not howGod there's not a formula, how God's going to
provide it for someone else as they're goingthrough it.
(17:44):
But there were certain moments and people,and gestures that people did, or, you know,
even just like songs that someone would sendme of, like reminding me of God's goodness
and his plan for my life.
And one of the things that really, reallystood out to me was what somebody said was,
think about how much I love Corrie and allthe agony that I'm feeling about what she's
(18:07):
going through, and then think about how muchGod loves her and his undying, incredible
love for her.
And that was not a guarantee that she wasgoing to make it through, because there were,
again, like you had, touch and go momentswith your COVID in the hospital.
There were touch and go moments with Corriewhere she may not have made it.
So it wasn't an assurance, okay.
(18:28):
Corrie is going to be okay.
But what it was is that there was anassurance and a hope that the God of the
universe loved her even more than I couldimagine.
And because I knew how I felt and all theagony I was going through, and knowing that
God was relating to me in that, provided mepeace and assurance that even if the worst
(18:48):
happened, that God was not there, justletting it happen, that he didn't care, but
that he was there groaning with me andcrying with me and suffering with me.
And it was incredible because as I lookedback, what it did, is it created this
intimacy with God where I saw him as someonewalking through this with me, not someone
(19:12):
hurling disaster at me, or uncaring or evenjust like, well, if she dies, you got to deal
with it and you just got to move on or yougot to, it was like, I'm with you.
And not only am I with you, I'm with herright now.
And it was it was that hope and that peacethat really was drove, you know, got me
through those times.
(19:33):
And even after she made it out of thehospital and things were looking better.
I had this overwhelming sense of joy to beable to just care for her and take care of
her, because I knew how valuable and amazingshe was in God's eyes and in my eyes.
And it radically changed the way that Irelated to her and the joy that it brought me
(19:57):
to serve her.
So, I mean, it was just again, I wanted toshare that because I felt like this hope of
tragedy and suffering that we all feel inthis life, there's no guarantee that it works
out and someone makes it through, like Corydid for me.
But there is a guarantee that God is withus, and that he cares even more than we could
(20:20):
imagine about what we're going through.
And that assurance that co-laboring co-suffering with us is incredible.
Mark Fields: Amen. (20:30):
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Ross O'Hair: So hopefully that'll help somebody. (20:31):
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Hopefully that'll give some clarity aboutwhat we're talking about today.
The hope that God gives, because the HolySpirit truly, truly walked through that with
me and in one of the most, the mostdifficult moments of my life, he was there
and there was no doubt in my mind.
Mark Fields: Yeah. (20:50):
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Ross O'Hair: So how do we wrap this up for everybody, Mark? (20:51):
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How do we bring this to a head?
Mark Fields: Well, let me wrap this up with one more explanation. (20:54):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (20:56):
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Mark Fields: Because I love the way this passage ends with the groanings we saw the creation groans, (20:56):
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believers groan, now we see the HolySpirit's groaning.
And it gives us that hope, thatencouragement that you're not in this alone.
You may be at such a loss for words youdon't even know what to pray for.
You don't even know what to say. You're outof words and it says the Holy Spirit, at that
moment, not only as we said last episode ishe convincing you that you're his child,
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (21:18):
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Mark Fields: He now is interceding for you, and you don't even know what that means, but that gives you (21:19):
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hope. That gives you encouragement.
That gives you, Wow! He is with me.
The Trinity is with me, and they're pullingfor me.
And he's praying things I can't even thinkof.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Exactly. (21:31):
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Mark Fields: And it's all for my good because it's according to God's will. (21:31):
undefined
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, yeah. That's awesome! (21:33):
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That's amazing! And again, I can't help butpersonalize that.
It's like the Holy Spirit is there with youas you walk through this, and he's going to
show himself to you in a unique and intimatepersonal way.
It won't be exactly like it was for me, andit won't be exactly like it is for you, Mark.
But that's the amazing part of how Godworks, is he's going...
(21:56):
He knows how to connect with you in thosemoments to provide assurance and hope.
Yep. So how do we wrap it up?
Mark Fields: All right. Well, so sin has created a destructive and painful existence instead of (22:03):
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what God designed. The whole world isexperiencing pain and suffering due to this.
And it's not God's design.
God's design was for us to live in harmonyand peace and love.
And so as we work through the existingcondition, we can have hope that brings
peace, joy, and perseverance in oursufferings.
(22:23):
Our hope, that comes from God, lies in thepromises that God will restore his design for
creation someday.
And like you said before, he's with us ineach step of the way.
Yeah. And so when we were so distraught thatwe don't even know how to pray, God's Spirit
is in us, with us and for us.
The Holy Spirit expresses this to the fatherexactly what we need in the moment.
Knowing this truth brings us great comfort -brings us great hope that endures.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Well, Mark, thanks so much. (22:46):
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I mean, this is this has been one that'sreally impactful to me.
And I've really loved listening to what thepoints you've brought out and learning from
you, and so I really appreciate your timedoing this.
Mark Fields: Thank you Ross. (22:57):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah guys, thanks so much for listening. (22:58):
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This is the fourth episode of six for Romans8.
So we've got a couple more left.
And guys, thanks so much for listening totoday's episode.
We hope you've enjoyed the Living in Jesuspodcast, and we'll see you next week.
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