February 13, 2025 • 20 mins
In this episode, Ross O’Hair and Ben Brezina explore what it means to overcome evil with good. They unpack Romans 12:19-21—challenging listeners to leave revenge to God and instead respond to hurt with kindness and radical love. The conversation touches on the pitfalls of seeking personal justice, the transformative power of depending on the Holy Spirit, and practical ways to bless those who wrong us, even in our most vulnerable moments. If you've ever wrestled with how to handle hurt, offense, or injustice, this conversation will challenge and encourage you. Discover how choosing to depend on Christ and walking in His love can transform your life—and the lives of those around you.
Key Verses:
Romans 12:19-21: "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’ To the contrary, ‘if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.’ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
Quotes:
“We are the worst person to judge a situation when we’re the ones hurt.”
“The people who hurt us can’t heal us—only God can.”
“Jesus didn’t just avoid revenge—He actively blessed those who hated Him.”
Key Points:
- Overcoming evil with good begins by entrusting our hurt and anger to God rather than seeking personal vengeance.
- Radical love calls us to bless our enemies and respond with kindness, even when our emotions run high.
- Depending on the Holy Spirit empowers us to transform conflict into opportunities for healing and reconciliation.
Outline:
- Introduction (00:04)
- Scripture Reading (00:50)
- The Call to Not Avenge Yourself (02:08)
- God’s Justice vs. Our Emotions (03:32)
- The Destructive Cycle of Retaliation (06:16)
- Empowered to Give Radical Love (07:38)
- Jesus as the Ultimate Example (10:53)
- Practical Example: Refusing to Take the Bait (12:00)
- Handling Personal Offense with Grace in Parenting (15:53)
- Relying on the Holy Spirit to Overcome Evil (19:16)
- Final Takeaway (19:31)
Theme Music:
Here Forever by Adigold Emotion by TonyDrummer (all rights and licensing from Envato elements)
Hosted by: Ross O'Hair Participating Staff: Ben Brezina Scripture Read by: Ben Brezina Edited by: Ross O’Hair and Ben Brezina
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ross O'Hair:
Welcome to the Living in Jesus podcast. (00:04):
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What does justice look like when someone wrongs you or when you wrong someone else?
The world says to get even.
But what do you think would happen if you responded with kindness and love?
What kind of transformation would happen in both your heart and theirs?
In this episode, we'll dive into Romans 12:19 -
(00:24):
21, where Paul challenges us to take a different path,
a path that leaves revenge to God and instead chooses to overcome evil with good.
We'll explore what it means to truly bless those who hurt us,
and how this radical love can bring healing not just to them,
but for us too. My name is Ross O'Hair, and I'll be your host today.
And joining me today is Ben Brezina.
(00:45):
But before we get to today's episode, let's take a moment and listen to the
Scripture.
Ben Brezina: Romans 12:19-21. "Beloved, never avenge yourself, (00:55):
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but leave it to the wrath of God.
For it is written, vengeance is mine.
I will repay, says the Lord.
To the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him.
If he's thirsty, give him something to drink.
(01:15):
For by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
Ross O'Hair: All right Ben. How are you today? (01:32):
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Ben Brezina: I'm doing good, Ross. (01:33):
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Ross O'Hair: Good. Good to have you back in. (01:34):
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Ben Brezina: Yeah. It's great to be here. It's been a while. (01:35):
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Ross O'Hair: It has. It's been a little while. You are wrapping up Romans 12 for us. (01:37):
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Ben Brezina: Yes. (01:41):
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Ross O'Hair: Last episode in the series here. (01:41):
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So, you know, Paul's been on this long list of kind of not do's and don'ts,
but ways to live according to God's grace and our new identity.
If we are truly new and he lives inside of us,
then what does that look like? And he's kind of been on this long list. And so he ends
here in these last few verses in a pretty charged way.
(02:02):
And 19 kind of starts with this idea of revenge or avenging ourselves.
So where does he start us?
Ben Brezina: Yeah, he's very direct here. (02:08):
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He says, don't ever avenge yourself.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah (02:13):
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Ben Brezina: Right? Ever. Doesn't matter if somebody's unkind to you. (02:13):
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If somebody steals from you, if they murder your mother,
if your daughter disrespects you, whatever it is,
don't avenge yourself.
Leave room for God. Right?
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And so, because he's starting this way, (02:27):
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I mean, obviously we're talking about the book of Romans.
The Romans are being persecuted and there's a lot going on there.
So obviously it's in that backdrop.
But what does he do in this with this problem.
Ben Brezina: Yeah. Ultimately he wants unity I mean that's God's heart - (02:42):
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is God living in harmony with man.
Man living in harmony with each other.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (02:50):
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Ben Brezina: And so what's the best way? (02:50):
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What's the best way? He's restored us in Christ.
And now what's the best way to live?
Well, yeah, there's going to be offenses.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (02:59):
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Ben Brezina: And they need to be dealt with when we're damaged, (03:00):
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when we're hurt. When things are taken from us.
When our rights are trampled on.
Something inside of us rises up and says, that's not right!
That's not just! We need justice!
And I think there's nothing wrong with that. God put that in us.
He's a God of justice.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (03:17):
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Ben Brezina: And so there's nothing wrong with justice. (03:17):
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But God says, how are we going to get to that point?
Because there still are going to be offenses. How are we going to get to that point? And
it's not going to be by you, the person that's just been damaged,
rising up and doing that yourself.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we're the worst person to be able to navigate (03:32):
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that in that moment with all those emotions and all that offense on us.
Ben Brezina: Yeah, we have heated emotions. (03:40):
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Maybe we don't know the thoughts and intents of the other person.
We don't know all the details of the situation.
You know, in our country, the United States,
if you are on criminal trial, you have a trial by jury.
And why do we set it up that way?
We set it up that way because we don't trust one person.
We want a group of our peers to judge us.
(04:00):
And even then, justice is not served sometimes.
But that for us is the best scenario.
But here's God. He knows all things.
He has all power. He sees the thoughts and intents of the heart.
He is the perfect person to judge all the rights and wrongs.
And according to Paul, there's going to come a day.
Maybe you don't see justice in the time frame that you want here on earth.
(04:21):
Or maybe the government fails us and doesn't bring the right justice.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (04:25):
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Ben Brezina: But Paul is saying God's the judge of the earth. (04:25):
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That's what the Old Testament tells us, right?
God's the judge of the earth. There's going to come a day, a judgment day,
and and the wrath of God is there.
And we're supposed to leave room.
We let... Okay, God, you know their heart.
You know all the circumstances.
You know what should be done to right this wrong.
And so I'm going to give it to you.
I'm not going to do it myself.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. It's kind of like that whole idea of, you know, (04:45):
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defending ourselves and standing up for ourselves,
allowing the Holy Spirit to do that for us, to defend us,
to stand up for us and to be able to do so in a way that is loving for us,
caring for us, but also in a way that is best for the situation,
right? And we think about revenge and avenging ourselves.
(05:07):
Like oftentimes our intent is not, hey, I want the best outcome in this
situation. It's like, no, I want to get back.
And whereas the Holy Spirit is like, hey, I want relationships to be restored. I
want there to be peace and to be calm in this situation.
Obviously, boundaries are good, wisdom is good.
But he wants that to be restored and he knows how to do that best.
Ben Brezina: Yeah, a lot of times we have all these emotions, (05:26):
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right? These heavy emotions pain, hurt, anger,
frustration, powerlessness, a sense of powerlessness.
And so we want to have an outlet to get rid of that.
So if we're going to avenge ourselves, we want you to feel the same thing.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (05:43):
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Ben Brezina: Right? And then often we lump on an additional amount of suffering just so that, (05:43):
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you know, you can never do that to us again.
Ross O'Hair: Interest payment. (05:50):
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Ben Brezina: And. Yeah, exactly. And then that doesn't. (05:51):
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Right the wrong. It doesn't right the situation.
It starts stirring in that other person.
Hey, this is not just he went overboard.
I need to pay him back.
And so you end up with this cycle of death and destruction,
and everybody loses in that, and everybody's destroyed,
you know? And that's - it happens in individuals.
It happens with countries and nations.
(06:13):
And I mean, that's the story of war and death in our world.
Ross O'Hair: That's exactly what I was going to say. It's like it's not just individually. This is (06:16):
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corporately within churches, within communities,
within countries. Like this is how small conflicts become bigger and bigger and
bigger, because it's you're repaying that evil with a little bit more, and then you're
repaying that justice with or, you know, like back and forth and it really
does.
Ben Brezina: Devastating. (06:32):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (06:32):
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Ben Brezina: Devastating. (06:33):
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Ross O'Hair: So that, you know, so verse 19 leaves says, okay, (06:33):
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leave it to God I will repay.
But then 20 kind of changes the tone to what what we're doing.
Like how does how does he transition there.
Ben Brezina: Yeah. So so it's a whole nother level. (06:46):
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He takes it in the next verse. I mean, the quote about "vengeance is mine" is
straight out of Deuteronomy.
But Paul doesn't stop there.
He goes back and takes the ancient Hebrew proverb.
It's in Proverbs 25, verses 21 through 22 that says,
"if your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat.
(07:07):
If he's thirsty, give him water to drink, for you will heap burning coals on his head."
That's a great quote, Paul saying.
So he's going back with some ancient wisdom, and he says,
it's not just leaving room for God, in order to solve this and bring
reconciliation and change the environment, you actually love says,
(07:28):
I don't just love my friends.
I won't just forgive my enemies, but I actually bless them.
I actually do something for them and it changes the environment,
which is a whole nother level.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, well, it's a radical way of living, and it's kind of goes in hand with what we've (07:38):
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talked about. The whole chapter here is when we know who we are,
we're able to do something like this.
And I would even say along the same thing we've talked about is there's a joy when we
can give somebody who is an enemy a gift of, you know,
feeding when they're hungry or giving them something to drink when they're thirsty. It's
(08:00):
like when we get to the point where we're so secure in who we are and how God feels about
us and our eternal salvation, But just even just our our how much we're
loved by the God of the universe, how much we're taken care of by him,
who we are, what he's done to us, we can then repay someone who's been,
you know, hurtful to us with love, with kindness.
(08:21):
And again, I would dare say it would, it would actually even bring joy to us.
Ben Brezina: Yeah, definitely. But but we still have emotions that we have to deal with. (08:24):
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We still have thoughts.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (08:30):
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Ben Brezina: And the way that he wraps it up is do not be overcome by evil. (08:30):
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Right? And I think overcoming is when we have that hurt and we feel the strong emotions
that we leave that to operate in the flesh and say,
"I'm going to solve this in my own strength." And the way that we handle those emotions,
I think the perfect way is to take those to God and talk them through with God,
(08:54):
process them out loud with him, or in prayer like they do in do in the
Psalms. You see this a lot of times.
I was reading Psalm 73 the other day, and Asaph,
gets so worked up about how the wicked he's being treated horrible and the wicked are
prospering and they, you know, so pleasurable.
And he's talking it out with God. And in the end he sees their end.
He sees that there's going to be a judgment day, and then there's going to be destruction
(09:17):
for them.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (09:17):
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Ben Brezina: And then they're not getting away with it, even if he sees it. (09:17):
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But God is the one that's going to handle it.
And his delight, he says he ends it with, my good is the nearness of God and enjoying
his presence. And I think God is the one that heals us.
The people - we say this in counseling a lot here,
"the people that hurt us can't heal us" and it's God.
(09:37):
It's spending time with him and receiving his love,
his hope, his encouragement that is is able to heal.
And then knowing that he's going to take care of the evils in the world,
he's going to right the wrongs.
We can process that, and then we can bless.
We're free to bless others.
We don't have to punish them and make them hurt because they hurt us.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, well, I really I appreciate your, your transparency or just the realness of (09:57):
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what being hurt is really like.
It's easy sometimes for me to just kind of be like, oh, yeah, we just trust God and it'll
be easy. But yeah, I mean, when we're hurt, when we're upset,
when somebody especially close to us or someone that we feel really unjustly treated
by, I mean, when they hurt us , that emotion is raw.
(10:21):
It's real.
Ben Brezina: It's deep sometimes. (10:22):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. We can't downplay that. So I appreciate that. I think the what Paul is really coming (10:23):
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into here is like, hey, there's a lot of evil going on and you can be
treated that way.
Ben Brezina: You will be treated. (10:32):
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Ross O'Hair: You will be treated that way. But you are different. And when we understand that and (10:33):
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when we give it to the Lord, there's a dependence there,
right? There's a way of like, okay, God, I need I gotta depend on you to
handle this situation because I'm, I'm in no shape right now to do that.
Then my question would be is like, how do we do that? How do we depend on God in
that moment when there's so much emotion?
Ben Brezina: Yeah, I mean, I think Jesus is the model and and also he's the power. (10:52):
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Both of that. I mean, you look at when he was reviled,
he did not revile in return.
Scripture says, but he kept entrusting himself to the Father.
And so you're you're receiving it, you know.
And he was receiving a tremendous amount of pain.
They were ripping his beard out, spitting on him.
(11:14):
I mean, he got a heavy dose, right?
But he kept entrusting himself.
He kept meditating on the scriptures, the Old Testament and the promises of God,
and what was going to happen, the joy that was set before him.
So all those things, it was going on and in the end,
he's forgiving. He's saying, "Father, forgive them. They don't know what
they're doing." You know?
(11:35):
So by entrusting himself to the father, by relying on the Father,
he was able to give a blessing.
And as a result, he overcame evil and started something that's transformed the world.
Ross O'Hair: Exactly. (11:48):
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Ben Brezina: You know, and we followed that same path, Paul saying, (11:48):
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through giving love even to the people that are treating us poorly and hating us.
And that's how good overcomes evil.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (11:59):
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Ben Brezina: You know another example of this in action. (11:59):
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I remember watching a press interview with a man named Tim Tebow.
He's an American football player, and he was struggling in his NFL career.
In His college career, he did great.
He got a Heisman Award.
The team did great. But when he made it to the NFL,
he was really struggling with being successful.
(12:22):
And during, you know, one of his hard years after a game,
there was a press conference and there was a reporter that just baited him.
He said, you know, this other quarterback for this team,
he said that you're not a very good player and you shouldn't be playing in the NFL. And
I remember thinking, wow, that's a blow.
You know, especially somebody that's working so hard,
that's giving so much that's accomplished so much already.
(12:45):
I wonder how he's going to respond. And he just kind of smiled.
He looked at the reporter and he said, "wow.
He said that?" And the reporter was like, yeah.
And he said, "you know, I really enjoy w atching that quarterback.
He's a good quarterback." That's all he said.
And the room was kind of stunned.
I think they were expecting a fight.
They wanted a dramatic story, a quote, you know.
(13:06):
Yeah. And he didn't give it.
And it kind of just completely went away.
And I was thinking, wow, that's a beautiful illustration of Christ
being able to bless the guy instead of returning a curse or defending yourself.
He just said, "wow, I really enjoy watching him.
He's a good quarterback."
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (13:22):
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Ben Brezina: And I think that's it. (13:23):
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I mean, it brings life.
It brings peace. And the Scriptures here say "heaps burning coals." And I think that's a
ancient Hebrew saying.
And we don't fully know what it is, but we know from the context that it's not
"you're not burning the guy." You know?
Fire is used a lot of times in the Old Testament as a refining or a purifying
(13:46):
effect, you know? And so maybe that's part of what it is.
Maybe it pricks their conscience a little bit,
or maybe it's like a gift, giving them a gift.
You know? But whatever it is, it brings reconciliation and healing rather
than more pain and suffering.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And so I think if we're really walking through this, (14:02):
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we're dealing with a lot of pain.
Some may say something bad about us to the whole world to hear,
like with Tim Tebow here.
Ben Brezina: Yeah. Or someone may be trying to kill us, like with Jesus. (14:12):
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And, I mean, whatever the circumstances we're going through,
the answer is depending upon Christ, depending upon Jesus in that moment,
that he's going to supply the needs that I have. So if I'm being disrespected, he's my
respect. If I'm being unloved, then he's my source of love.
Right? So he's meeting those needs.
And when I truly believe that and know that I'm new,
(14:34):
I can then give it to him.
The outcome to him. Yeah,
Ross O'Hair: Right? So how have you seen this play out in your own life, (14:37):
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then?
Ben Brezina: Yeah. Well, I mean, we are all faced with offenses. (14:40):
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Just something simple.
I mean, I know some of these run really deep and some of them are lighter offenses.
You know, one example in my life was I came home the other night and my daughter -
when we were, I was cooking dinner for them, and she says something disrespectful that was
(15:01):
kind of ugly. And it immediately hit me.
And I started feeling myself getting frustrated with her.
And I was thinking, here I am cooking dinner for her and she's disrespecting me,
you know? And all these thoughts come into your mind and it's how am I going to respond
in a parenting situation?
And, you know, that's tough. We have different responsibilities as a parent.
(15:24):
We're supposed to train our kids, but we also have to deal with our emotions
and we have to deal with offenses.
And to be honest, like, those can hurt even more,
you know, because we care about our kids.
And if they say something disrespectful, it can be even more of a barb.
So I'm in this situation.
How am I going to handle it? What am I going to do?
How am I going to respond?
Am I going to punish her out of anger and the feeling of hurt?
(15:48):
Or am I going to discipline her out of love, you know,
and do what's in her best interest?
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (15:53):
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Ben Brezina: So that's the question that's in front of me. And in my flesh, (15:53):
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I want to handle it in the flesh. I want to punish her so that she knows that she
shouldn't do that. And based on my past habit patterns and stuff that I've done,
I can resort to the silent treatment or say something sarcastic that's insulting back,
you know, kind of underhandedly or something.
(16:14):
Those are temptations.
But there's also a lot of other opportunities.
You know i've been in the grocery store and I've seen kids say something to their mom and
I've seen them smack them on the face or smack them on the hand.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (16:26):
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Ben Brezina: You know, so that's physically there's all kind of ways that we can do if we're (16:26):
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disciplining out of our anger, if we're getting revenge,
you know. And so we got to be careful.
I think for me, it's like in that situation we need to stop and say,
God, you take this offense and show me how to love my daughter in this situation.
What's the best for her?
(16:48):
You know? And in that situation, I recognized she had had a hard day and I
went up and gave her a hug.
Now, that doesn't mean there's no consequences to the actions.
And we have to discuss that.
But I was able to give her grace and mercy in the middle of it,
rather than respond in anger and revenge.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. How did she respond to that? (17:05):
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Ben Brezina: Oh, just by me giving her a hug, she was very repentant, (17:07):
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you know, and she recognized.
And she is sensitive to that.
She's not one that that always interrupts me.
And I'm not saying everybody should respond to their kids in that way. I mean,
we have been given the Holy Spirit to know how to respond.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (17:23):
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Ben Brezina: But in that situation, I think that was what was needed. (17:23):
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And it caused repentance in her.
And I think a lot of times.
Well, that's what Scripture says. "The kindness of God leads us to repentance."
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, exactly. You know, it's so cool. (17:33):
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I've listened to, you know, all these chapters,
all you guys teaching on this.
And it's interesting that Paul ends here, 12 with this kind of idea,
because it's almost like everything is put to the test in this moment when we are wronged.
Everything we believe, all the feelings we're feeling, everything
we're thinking is put to the test in that moment,
Ben Brezina: It is a test. (17:53):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And so it's kind of like this, this climactic conclusion here of like, (17:54):
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how do you handle when someone truly wrongs you?
Right? And he's almost I view it as like tying all this together again.
I'm going to be a broken drum here. But it's like he's talking about if we know who we
are, that's the basis here.
We HAVE to know our identity.
If we understand what God's done to us and the Holy Spirit lives inside of us,
(18:15):
we can begin to take these steps.
When we understand that the power of God is working in us to remind us of the truth,
to teach us the truth, then we can start to navigate these
situations in a different way.
And then, like you said, you know, you gave her a hug.
It's this process of now intimately knowing and conversing with the Holy Spirit about how
to navigate these situations.
It involves forgiveness. It involves trust and dependency upon God that he's going to
(18:38):
handle these situations. I mean, it's all of this wrapped up into this
situation. And so it's a great way to kind of wrap up our conversation because we see this
and it's like, okay, how do we actually live this life when somebody hurts us and it's all
of those things together now that could feel overwhelming, though, as you hear that, it's
like, well, there's a lot of stuff I have to do, but that's it.
(18:59):
You don't have to. It's it's understanding and believing and then trusting God to make
that more real in your life.
Ben Brezina: Yeah. And the trust involves a choice, right? (19:04):
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He ends it with, "do not be overcome by evil,
but overcome evil with good." So it's a choice that we make.
And the choice is to depend on the Spirit.
Ross O'Hair: Exactly. (19:15):
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Ben Brezina: And and that's what it means to walk by the Spirit is we're choosing - (19:16):
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I'm not going to solve these issues in my own strength.
I'm going to submit my will to the Holy Spirit and allow his life,
his love, to flow through me, whatever the circumstance.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so if we had a major takeaway, (19:28):
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what would it be?
Ben Brezina: Yeah. Well, the major takeaway is make that choice. (19:31):
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Make the choice. We do have hurt.
You're going to be hurt.
In this world, there's trouble, there's trials,
there's persecution as they faced, the Romans faced.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (19:43):
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Ben Brezina: And the answer is to give it to God, depend on him, (19:43):
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and then allow his life and love to flow through to other people that have hurt us,
just like Jesus did. And he is living his life in us.
And as we know that and believe that we can walk just like he did.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Well, Ben, thanks so much. (20:01):
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I really appreciate your time.
Thanks for all your help. You know, guys, as you're listening, you hear my voice
a lot, but Ben's always helping me behind the scenes. He's always involved in this, so.
Ben Brezina: You bet. (20:10):
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Ross O'Hair: Thanks for everything. (20:10):
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And guys, again, thanks for listening to today's episode.
Ben Brezina: We're going to have one more to wrap it up. (20:15):
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Ross O'Hair: That's right. Yep. And we'll have a wrap -up episode. (20:17):
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And if you've enjoyed today's episode or even just this whole season, I'd love it if you'd
leave us a review. It really helps us out and it helps other people find this podcast,
which is great. So thanks again for listening today,
and we'll see you next week on the Living in Jesus podcast.
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What does justice look like when someone wrongs you or when you wrong someone else?
The world says to get even.
But what do you think would happen if you responded with kindness and love?
What kind of transformation would happen in both your heart and theirs?
In this episode, we'll dive into Romans 12:19 -
(00:24):
21, where Paul challenges us to take a different path,
a path that leaves revenge to God and instead chooses to overcome evil with good.
We'll explore what it means to truly bless those who hurt us,
and how this radical love can bring healing not just to them,
but for us too. My name is Ross O'Hair, and I'll be your host today.
And joining me today is Ben Brezina.
(00:45):
But before we get to today's episode, let's take a moment and listen to the
Scripture.
Ben Brezina: Romans 12:19-21. "Beloved, never avenge yourself, (00:55):
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but leave it to the wrath of God.
For it is written, vengeance is mine.
I will repay, says the Lord.
To the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him.
If he's thirsty, give him something to drink.
(01:15):
For by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
Ross O'Hair: All right Ben. How are you today? (01:32):
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Ben Brezina: I'm doing good, Ross. (01:33):
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Ross O'Hair: Good. Good to have you back in. (01:34):
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Ben Brezina: Yeah. It's great to be here. It's been a while. (01:35):
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Ross O'Hair: It has. It's been a little while. You are wrapping up Romans 12 for us. (01:37):
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Ben Brezina: Yes. (01:41):
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Ross O'Hair: Last episode in the series here. (01:41):
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So, you know, Paul's been on this long list of kind of not do's and don'ts,
but ways to live according to God's grace and our new identity.
If we are truly new and he lives inside of us,
then what does that look like? And he's kind of been on this long list. And so he ends
here in these last few verses in a pretty charged way.
(02:02):
And 19 kind of starts with this idea of revenge or avenging ourselves.
So where does he start us?
Ben Brezina: Yeah, he's very direct here. (02:08):
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He says, don't ever avenge yourself.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah (02:13):
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Ben Brezina: Right? Ever. Doesn't matter if somebody's unkind to you. (02:13):
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If somebody steals from you, if they murder your mother,
if your daughter disrespects you, whatever it is,
don't avenge yourself.
Leave room for God. Right?
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And so, because he's starting this way, (02:27):
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I mean, obviously we're talking about the book of Romans.
The Romans are being persecuted and there's a lot going on there.
So obviously it's in that backdrop.
But what does he do in this with this problem.
Ben Brezina: Yeah. Ultimately he wants unity I mean that's God's heart - (02:42):
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is God living in harmony with man.
Man living in harmony with each other.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (02:50):
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Ben Brezina: And so what's the best way? (02:50):
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What's the best way? He's restored us in Christ.
And now what's the best way to live?
Well, yeah, there's going to be offenses.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (02:59):
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Ben Brezina: And they need to be dealt with when we're damaged, (03:00):
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when we're hurt. When things are taken from us.
When our rights are trampled on.
Something inside of us rises up and says, that's not right!
That's not just! We need justice!
And I think there's nothing wrong with that. God put that in us.
He's a God of justice.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (03:17):
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Ben Brezina: And so there's nothing wrong with justice. (03:17):
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But God says, how are we going to get to that point?
Because there still are going to be offenses. How are we going to get to that point? And
it's not going to be by you, the person that's just been damaged,
rising up and doing that yourself.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we're the worst person to be able to navigate (03:32):
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that in that moment with all those emotions and all that offense on us.
Ben Brezina: Yeah, we have heated emotions. (03:40):
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Maybe we don't know the thoughts and intents of the other person.
We don't know all the details of the situation.
You know, in our country, the United States,
if you are on criminal trial, you have a trial by jury.
And why do we set it up that way?
We set it up that way because we don't trust one person.
We want a group of our peers to judge us.
(04:00):
And even then, justice is not served sometimes.
But that for us is the best scenario.
But here's God. He knows all things.
He has all power. He sees the thoughts and intents of the heart.
He is the perfect person to judge all the rights and wrongs.
And according to Paul, there's going to come a day.
Maybe you don't see justice in the time frame that you want here on earth.
(04:21):
Or maybe the government fails us and doesn't bring the right justice.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (04:25):
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Ben Brezina: But Paul is saying God's the judge of the earth. (04:25):
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That's what the Old Testament tells us, right?
God's the judge of the earth. There's going to come a day, a judgment day,
and and the wrath of God is there.
And we're supposed to leave room.
We let... Okay, God, you know their heart.
You know all the circumstances.
You know what should be done to right this wrong.
And so I'm going to give it to you.
I'm not going to do it myself.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. It's kind of like that whole idea of, you know, (04:45):
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defending ourselves and standing up for ourselves,
allowing the Holy Spirit to do that for us, to defend us,
to stand up for us and to be able to do so in a way that is loving for us,
caring for us, but also in a way that is best for the situation,
right? And we think about revenge and avenging ourselves.
(05:07):
Like oftentimes our intent is not, hey, I want the best outcome in this
situation. It's like, no, I want to get back.
And whereas the Holy Spirit is like, hey, I want relationships to be restored. I
want there to be peace and to be calm in this situation.
Obviously, boundaries are good, wisdom is good.
But he wants that to be restored and he knows how to do that best.
Ben Brezina: Yeah, a lot of times we have all these emotions, (05:26):
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right? These heavy emotions pain, hurt, anger,
frustration, powerlessness, a sense of powerlessness.
And so we want to have an outlet to get rid of that.
So if we're going to avenge ourselves, we want you to feel the same thing.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (05:43):
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Ben Brezina: Right? And then often we lump on an additional amount of suffering just so that, (05:43):
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you know, you can never do that to us again.
Ross O'Hair: Interest payment. (05:50):
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Ben Brezina: And. Yeah, exactly. And then that doesn't. (05:51):
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Right the wrong. It doesn't right the situation.
It starts stirring in that other person.
Hey, this is not just he went overboard.
I need to pay him back.
And so you end up with this cycle of death and destruction,
and everybody loses in that, and everybody's destroyed,
you know? And that's - it happens in individuals.
It happens with countries and nations.
(06:13):
And I mean, that's the story of war and death in our world.
Ross O'Hair: That's exactly what I was going to say. It's like it's not just individually. This is (06:16):
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corporately within churches, within communities,
within countries. Like this is how small conflicts become bigger and bigger and
bigger, because it's you're repaying that evil with a little bit more, and then you're
repaying that justice with or, you know, like back and forth and it really
does.
Ben Brezina: Devastating. (06:32):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (06:32):
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Ben Brezina: Devastating. (06:33):
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Ross O'Hair: So that, you know, so verse 19 leaves says, okay, (06:33):
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leave it to God I will repay.
But then 20 kind of changes the tone to what what we're doing.
Like how does how does he transition there.
Ben Brezina: Yeah. So so it's a whole nother level. (06:46):
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He takes it in the next verse. I mean, the quote about "vengeance is mine" is
straight out of Deuteronomy.
But Paul doesn't stop there.
He goes back and takes the ancient Hebrew proverb.
It's in Proverbs 25, verses 21 through 22 that says,
"if your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat.
(07:07):
If he's thirsty, give him water to drink, for you will heap burning coals on his head."
That's a great quote, Paul saying.
So he's going back with some ancient wisdom, and he says,
it's not just leaving room for God, in order to solve this and bring
reconciliation and change the environment, you actually love says,
(07:28):
I don't just love my friends.
I won't just forgive my enemies, but I actually bless them.
I actually do something for them and it changes the environment,
which is a whole nother level.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, well, it's a radical way of living, and it's kind of goes in hand with what we've (07:38):
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talked about. The whole chapter here is when we know who we are,
we're able to do something like this.
And I would even say along the same thing we've talked about is there's a joy when we
can give somebody who is an enemy a gift of, you know,
feeding when they're hungry or giving them something to drink when they're thirsty. It's
(08:00):
like when we get to the point where we're so secure in who we are and how God feels about
us and our eternal salvation, But just even just our our how much we're
loved by the God of the universe, how much we're taken care of by him,
who we are, what he's done to us, we can then repay someone who's been,
you know, hurtful to us with love, with kindness.
(08:21):
And again, I would dare say it would, it would actually even bring joy to us.
Ben Brezina: Yeah, definitely. But but we still have emotions that we have to deal with. (08:24):
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We still have thoughts.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (08:30):
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Ben Brezina: And the way that he wraps it up is do not be overcome by evil. (08:30):
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Right? And I think overcoming is when we have that hurt and we feel the strong emotions
that we leave that to operate in the flesh and say,
"I'm going to solve this in my own strength." And the way that we handle those emotions,
I think the perfect way is to take those to God and talk them through with God,
(08:54):
process them out loud with him, or in prayer like they do in do in the
Psalms. You see this a lot of times.
I was reading Psalm 73 the other day, and Asaph,
gets so worked up about how the wicked he's being treated horrible and the wicked are
prospering and they, you know, so pleasurable.
And he's talking it out with God. And in the end he sees their end.
He sees that there's going to be a judgment day, and then there's going to be destruction
(09:17):
for them.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (09:17):
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Ben Brezina: And then they're not getting away with it, even if he sees it. (09:17):
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But God is the one that's going to handle it.
And his delight, he says he ends it with, my good is the nearness of God and enjoying
his presence. And I think God is the one that heals us.
The people - we say this in counseling a lot here,
"the people that hurt us can't heal us" and it's God.
(09:37):
It's spending time with him and receiving his love,
his hope, his encouragement that is is able to heal.
And then knowing that he's going to take care of the evils in the world,
he's going to right the wrongs.
We can process that, and then we can bless.
We're free to bless others.
We don't have to punish them and make them hurt because they hurt us.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, well, I really I appreciate your, your transparency or just the realness of (09:57):
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what being hurt is really like.
It's easy sometimes for me to just kind of be like, oh, yeah, we just trust God and it'll
be easy. But yeah, I mean, when we're hurt, when we're upset,
when somebody especially close to us or someone that we feel really unjustly treated
by, I mean, when they hurt us , that emotion is raw.
(10:21):
It's real.
Ben Brezina: It's deep sometimes. (10:22):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. We can't downplay that. So I appreciate that. I think the what Paul is really coming (10:23):
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into here is like, hey, there's a lot of evil going on and you can be
treated that way.
Ben Brezina: You will be treated. (10:32):
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Ross O'Hair: You will be treated that way. But you are different. And when we understand that and (10:33):
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when we give it to the Lord, there's a dependence there,
right? There's a way of like, okay, God, I need I gotta depend on you to
handle this situation because I'm, I'm in no shape right now to do that.
Then my question would be is like, how do we do that? How do we depend on God in
that moment when there's so much emotion?
Ben Brezina: Yeah, I mean, I think Jesus is the model and and also he's the power. (10:52):
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Both of that. I mean, you look at when he was reviled,
he did not revile in return.
Scripture says, but he kept entrusting himself to the Father.
And so you're you're receiving it, you know.
And he was receiving a tremendous amount of pain.
They were ripping his beard out, spitting on him.
(11:14):
I mean, he got a heavy dose, right?
But he kept entrusting himself.
He kept meditating on the scriptures, the Old Testament and the promises of God,
and what was going to happen, the joy that was set before him.
So all those things, it was going on and in the end,
he's forgiving. He's saying, "Father, forgive them. They don't know what
they're doing." You know?
(11:35):
So by entrusting himself to the father, by relying on the Father,
he was able to give a blessing.
And as a result, he overcame evil and started something that's transformed the world.
Ross O'Hair: Exactly. (11:48):
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Ben Brezina: You know, and we followed that same path, Paul saying, (11:48):
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through giving love even to the people that are treating us poorly and hating us.
And that's how good overcomes evil.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (11:59):
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Ben Brezina: You know another example of this in action. (11:59):
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I remember watching a press interview with a man named Tim Tebow.
He's an American football player, and he was struggling in his NFL career.
In His college career, he did great.
He got a Heisman Award.
The team did great. But when he made it to the NFL,
he was really struggling with being successful.
(12:22):
And during, you know, one of his hard years after a game,
there was a press conference and there was a reporter that just baited him.
He said, you know, this other quarterback for this team,
he said that you're not a very good player and you shouldn't be playing in the NFL. And
I remember thinking, wow, that's a blow.
You know, especially somebody that's working so hard,
that's giving so much that's accomplished so much already.
(12:45):
I wonder how he's going to respond. And he just kind of smiled.
He looked at the reporter and he said, "wow.
He said that?" And the reporter was like, yeah.
And he said, "you know, I really enjoy w atching that quarterback.
He's a good quarterback." That's all he said.
And the room was kind of stunned.
I think they were expecting a fight.
They wanted a dramatic story, a quote, you know.
(13:06):
Yeah. And he didn't give it.
And it kind of just completely went away.
And I was thinking, wow, that's a beautiful illustration of Christ
being able to bless the guy instead of returning a curse or defending yourself.
He just said, "wow, I really enjoy watching him.
He's a good quarterback."
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (13:22):
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Ben Brezina: And I think that's it. (13:23):
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I mean, it brings life.
It brings peace. And the Scriptures here say "heaps burning coals." And I think that's a
ancient Hebrew saying.
And we don't fully know what it is, but we know from the context that it's not
"you're not burning the guy." You know?
Fire is used a lot of times in the Old Testament as a refining or a purifying
(13:46):
effect, you know? And so maybe that's part of what it is.
Maybe it pricks their conscience a little bit,
or maybe it's like a gift, giving them a gift.
You know? But whatever it is, it brings reconciliation and healing rather
than more pain and suffering.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And so I think if we're really walking through this, (14:02):
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we're dealing with a lot of pain.
Some may say something bad about us to the whole world to hear,
like with Tim Tebow here.
Ben Brezina: Yeah. Or someone may be trying to kill us, like with Jesus. (14:12):
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And, I mean, whatever the circumstances we're going through,
the answer is depending upon Christ, depending upon Jesus in that moment,
that he's going to supply the needs that I have. So if I'm being disrespected, he's my
respect. If I'm being unloved, then he's my source of love.
Right? So he's meeting those needs.
And when I truly believe that and know that I'm new,
(14:34):
I can then give it to him.
The outcome to him. Yeah,
Ross O'Hair: Right? So how have you seen this play out in your own life, (14:37):
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then?
Ben Brezina: Yeah. Well, I mean, we are all faced with offenses. (14:40):
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Just something simple.
I mean, I know some of these run really deep and some of them are lighter offenses.
You know, one example in my life was I came home the other night and my daughter -
when we were, I was cooking dinner for them, and she says something disrespectful that was
(15:01):
kind of ugly. And it immediately hit me.
And I started feeling myself getting frustrated with her.
And I was thinking, here I am cooking dinner for her and she's disrespecting me,
you know? And all these thoughts come into your mind and it's how am I going to respond
in a parenting situation?
And, you know, that's tough. We have different responsibilities as a parent.
(15:24):
We're supposed to train our kids, but we also have to deal with our emotions
and we have to deal with offenses.
And to be honest, like, those can hurt even more,
you know, because we care about our kids.
And if they say something disrespectful, it can be even more of a barb.
So I'm in this situation.
How am I going to handle it? What am I going to do?
How am I going to respond?
Am I going to punish her out of anger and the feeling of hurt?
(15:48):
Or am I going to discipline her out of love, you know,
and do what's in her best interest?
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (15:53):
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Ben Brezina: So that's the question that's in front of me. And in my flesh, (15:53):
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I want to handle it in the flesh. I want to punish her so that she knows that she
shouldn't do that. And based on my past habit patterns and stuff that I've done,
I can resort to the silent treatment or say something sarcastic that's insulting back,
you know, kind of underhandedly or something.
(16:14):
Those are temptations.
But there's also a lot of other opportunities.
You know i've been in the grocery store and I've seen kids say something to their mom and
I've seen them smack them on the face or smack them on the hand.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (16:26):
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Ben Brezina: You know, so that's physically there's all kind of ways that we can do if we're (16:26):
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disciplining out of our anger, if we're getting revenge,
you know. And so we got to be careful.
I think for me, it's like in that situation we need to stop and say,
God, you take this offense and show me how to love my daughter in this situation.
What's the best for her?
(16:48):
You know? And in that situation, I recognized she had had a hard day and I
went up and gave her a hug.
Now, that doesn't mean there's no consequences to the actions.
And we have to discuss that.
But I was able to give her grace and mercy in the middle of it,
rather than respond in anger and revenge.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. How did she respond to that? (17:05):
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Ben Brezina: Oh, just by me giving her a hug, she was very repentant, (17:07):
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you know, and she recognized.
And she is sensitive to that.
She's not one that that always interrupts me.
And I'm not saying everybody should respond to their kids in that way. I mean,
we have been given the Holy Spirit to know how to respond.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (17:23):
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Ben Brezina: But in that situation, I think that was what was needed. (17:23):
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And it caused repentance in her.
And I think a lot of times.
Well, that's what Scripture says. "The kindness of God leads us to repentance."
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, exactly. You know, it's so cool. (17:33):
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I've listened to, you know, all these chapters,
all you guys teaching on this.
And it's interesting that Paul ends here, 12 with this kind of idea,
because it's almost like everything is put to the test in this moment when we are wronged.
Everything we believe, all the feelings we're feeling, everything
we're thinking is put to the test in that moment,
Ben Brezina: It is a test. (17:53):
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Ross O'Hair: Yeah. And so it's kind of like this, this climactic conclusion here of like, (17:54):
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how do you handle when someone truly wrongs you?
Right? And he's almost I view it as like tying all this together again.
I'm going to be a broken drum here. But it's like he's talking about if we know who we
are, that's the basis here.
We HAVE to know our identity.
If we understand what God's done to us and the Holy Spirit lives inside of us,
(18:15):
we can begin to take these steps.
When we understand that the power of God is working in us to remind us of the truth,
to teach us the truth, then we can start to navigate these
situations in a different way.
And then, like you said, you know, you gave her a hug.
It's this process of now intimately knowing and conversing with the Holy Spirit about how
to navigate these situations.
It involves forgiveness. It involves trust and dependency upon God that he's going to
(18:38):
handle these situations. I mean, it's all of this wrapped up into this
situation. And so it's a great way to kind of wrap up our conversation because we see this
and it's like, okay, how do we actually live this life when somebody hurts us and it's all
of those things together now that could feel overwhelming, though, as you hear that, it's
like, well, there's a lot of stuff I have to do, but that's it.
(18:59):
You don't have to. It's it's understanding and believing and then trusting God to make
that more real in your life.
Ben Brezina: Yeah. And the trust involves a choice, right? (19:04):
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He ends it with, "do not be overcome by evil,
but overcome evil with good." So it's a choice that we make.
And the choice is to depend on the Spirit.
Ross O'Hair: Exactly. (19:15):
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Ben Brezina: And and that's what it means to walk by the Spirit is we're choosing - (19:16):
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I'm not going to solve these issues in my own strength.
I'm going to submit my will to the Holy Spirit and allow his life,
his love, to flow through me, whatever the circumstance.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so if we had a major takeaway, (19:28):
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what would it be?
Ben Brezina: Yeah. Well, the major takeaway is make that choice. (19:31):
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Make the choice. We do have hurt.
You're going to be hurt.
In this world, there's trouble, there's trials,
there's persecution as they faced, the Romans faced.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. (19:43):
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Ben Brezina: And the answer is to give it to God, depend on him, (19:43):
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and then allow his life and love to flow through to other people that have hurt us,
just like Jesus did. And he is living his life in us.
And as we know that and believe that we can walk just like he did.
Ross O'Hair: Yeah. Well, Ben, thanks so much. (20:01):
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I really appreciate your time.
Thanks for all your help. You know, guys, as you're listening, you hear my voice
a lot, but Ben's always helping me behind the scenes. He's always involved in this, so.
Ben Brezina: You bet. (20:10):
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Ross O'Hair: Thanks for everything. (20:10):
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And guys, again, thanks for listening to today's episode.
Ben Brezina: We're going to have one more to wrap it up. (20:15):
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Ross O'Hair: That's right. Yep. And we'll have a wrap -up episode. (20:17):
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And if you've enjoyed today's episode or even just this whole season, I'd love it if you'd
leave us a review. It really helps us out and it helps other people find this podcast,
which is great. So thanks again for listening today,
and we'll see you next week on the Living in Jesus podcast.
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