Being Resilient & Adaptive in the Face of Crisis | Mark Ashby | Ep. 17 - Living Leaders

Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
The way we've been doing workand leadership is deeply broken.
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(00:32):
ourselves if we want to heal theworld. Welcome to the new self
Podcast where each week I'llhelp you explore topics that
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Nicole Belisle. I'm a leadershipexpert and Reiki master, and I
believe the secret to moreconscious work and leadership is
self healing, grab a seat andget cozy because we're about to

(00:53):
go on a journey. Hey, leaders,welcome to the show. I am here
with Mark Ashby today. Mark hasextensive experience in the
military and is joining us fromSydney, Australia. He now works
with multinationalorganizations, helping them with

(01:17):
crisis management, highperformance leadership, and
navigating cultural transitions.
Because of the specialist rolesthat he has held in the
Australian military, and the 11years that he served in Iraq.
Mark has seen a lot. Heunderstands the contextual
pressures of a war zone, wherecrisis and complexity is life or

(01:39):
death. He has seen the behaviorsand the leadership, skill sets
and mindsets that allow fortruly adaptable leadership and
teamwork to happen in the mostdire of conditions. And as we
get into in the episode, thelevels of complexity, chaos and
crisis that we're seeing on aglobal scale, are not going away

(02:02):
anytime soon. So what canexecutives, business owners and
self leaders learn from Mark'swisdom and time in the military?
What are the leadershipbehaviors that allow us to be
truly adaptable and fearless inthe face of crisis? How can we
take care of ourselves, and thehealth and wellbeing of each

(02:24):
other so that we don't loseaccess to our receptivity,
awareness of our surroundingsand the collective intelligence
that is possible within highperforming teams? And since
we're talking about crisis here,how do we do all of that while
processing our own loss andgrief along the way, loss often

(02:45):
comes up in the face of changeand transition, Mark has
experienced a level of lossthreat, and danger that most of
us will be too privileged andtoo comfortable to ever
experience in our lifetimes. forso many reasons, it's not even
fair to compare work culture, toa warzone. And yet, sometimes,

(03:07):
particularly in toxic teams, orunder toxic leadership, it can
feel pretty high stakes. It canfeel like a threat. It can feel
dangerous to our nervous systemsand our emotional or mental well
being when stakes are as high asthey are for our species and our

(03:28):
planet. We can't afford to nottransform leadership and
transform our work cultures, wehave to be able to be resilient
and adaptable enough to respondto crises, whether those crises
are internal, or external. So Ican think of no better person

(03:49):
than Mark Ashby to be joining mein this conversation today,
around how we navigate thecomplexity, ambiguity, and chaos
that can come with crisismanagement and big cultural
shifts. Because we're in one,we're in a really big one right
now. So without further ado, itis my absolute pleasure to

(04:12):
introduce you to mark AshbyMark, I'm so grateful to have
you on the show today. Thank youso much for being here.
Oh, it's a it's a fantasticoffer to be a real real real
pleasure.
Thank you. I know, I know,there's a lot we can dive into.
And I want to I want to helpframe up our conversation a

(04:33):
little bit because I think Ithink our audience is really
going to benefit from the wisdomthat you're bringing, especially
around crisis management. As youknow, I work a lot with
sustainability professionals andexecutives. And we find
ourselves very much in thiscontext where complexity is only
on the rise. There are so manycrises that are happening side

(04:57):
by side, whether it's theclimate crisis sees our mental,
our mental health crisis, all ofthe shifts that we're seeing in
work culture with quietquitting. I mean, the list just
goes on and on. And you'veprobably heard this term VUCA.
Before, right? volatile,uncertain, complex and

(05:18):
ambiguous. And I feel so deeplythat that's not going away
anytime soon. So here we have anexpert on crisis management. And
to drop us into that wisdom, Iwould love to start by just
hearing more about your storyand how you became an expert in
this area,I've taken a bit of a different

(05:38):
road, as opposed to the averageperson, I left school, I both
grew up, I grew up at the beachon the rural grew up grew up in
that whole surf environment inSydney. And that was my life,
you know, you're pretty muchliving by the beach. And that's
all you care about. You're atschool, and all you care about,
I grew up near the beach atschool. So you know, I was in
the surfing team there. And thatwas my life, you know, as much

(06:00):
as I could, I could do that myfather was a good surfer as
well. And, and that's what youthink your life is going to be
somewhere aligned with that. So.
But I always had thisfascination with the military as
well, strangely enough, and Igot to that sort of middle sort
of 20s age and had a bit of aconversation with my father
about life about what to do withmy life. And so I went off and

(06:24):
joined the military and got intothe paratroopers, which was,
which was my dream at the time,he did a specialty role. And
that took me then on, I supposeamazing journeys I never thought
would ever happen. Some of thecountries that I've worked in
I've never even really heard of,at the time. And I went off

(06:44):
relatives and four, I actuallyleft at the military, I got
offered an opportunity to go tothe Middle East into Iraq as a
private, private contractor. SoI, at the time will, the army
was a bit ambiguous whether wewere going to go into operations
or not, and every soldier, theyall want to go, they want to go
to operations, they don't wantto sit at home, and we all saw

(07:04):
was going on around the world,in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
And, and it's like when Isuppose it's like being an
athlete, you don't want to bejust training, you want to be
actually racing, or you know,competing. And it's the same
with that, especiallysoldiering, you want to be part
of it. So I took a position togo to Iraq thinking on my last
however, they're free for a yearor two, and they can maybe get

(07:26):
back into the military. But 11years later, you know, it's it
was one of those situationswhere the, the position that I
was in, it just gave meopportunities that I never would
have imagined, like I spokeabout before working with with
the United States, with it, aslong as all their specialty
soldiers over there as a privatecontractor, which was just
incredible. It's never happenedin history, that some of the

(07:49):
things we did over there. Andthat took me over there for all
those years, I ended up workingin the different diplomatic
sector as well, I was working atAustralian Embassy looking after
our, our ambassador there for afew years. Lovely Lady,
Ambassador. And then coming backto Australia, about 2015 at

(08:09):
Christmas time went back touniversity went to university at
48 to do my master's degree incounterterrorism which was a
huge I suppose you want to callit was a big hurdle. At that
time of my life going back at myage and with all the all the
differences, I suppose inlearning with everything now on

(08:30):
on technology wise and learningplatforms and your online
libraries and which was a hugelearning experience for me to do
that. And it was actually theone of the best things I've ever
done pretty, pretty terrifying,to be honest, at my age to do
that, but by not having a greatexperience and I was absolutely
thrilled with my whole modeltime there and more results and
and that then led me to then,you know, I suppose morph into

(08:53):
my own my own dream of have myown business, I wanted to do
something that I could use allmy years and years of skills and
what I'd acquired and all thatexperience to suppose just to
really one one for myselfsomething I really wanted
because I love doing it day inday out. And then also that real
byproduct of that is you get tohelp people in their own

(09:13):
environments, their own worlds,helping them become you know, I
suppose safer and smarter andbetter in their own their own
worlds. And so that's where I'mat right now and it's something
that I love to do it's almostnot a job it's truly isn't a job
and I love doing it.
Thank you for for walking us tothat arc I really see how the on
the ground experience then sortof flowed into the study chapter

(09:38):
of life and the counterterrorismand now translating all of those
gifts into into working withpeople to bring this wisdom to
light through your business andI can't help but but hone in on
the the magnitude of the crisesthat you would have been
experiencing. Maybe sometimes ona daily bases while you were on

(10:01):
mission and serving. And I thinksometimes in business things can
feel like it's life or death, itcan feel like it's urgent, our
nervous system is up in arms,we're freaking out. It's where
we get into that, that reactivezone where we feel like we can't

(10:21):
fail. There's something atthere's something so at high
stake here that we have to presson. But you you were really in
life or death situations, thestakes were even higher than in
business. And I'm so curious tolearn. What, what were some of
the lessons, what were some ofthe patterns that you noticed,

(10:43):
as you were, in this crisismanagement and beginning to
witness what what effectiveleadership looked like in the
face of crisis?
I think in that high pressureenvironment, especially in that
war zone environment, and themission tempo that we had,
there, were not like the normalaverage soldier that may be

(11:06):
going out there and doing theirpatrols or whatever they're
doing. And it's still, ofcourse, it's extremely dangerous
for them. And they've got to bewherever you die. For us, we're
so busy. And you may sometimesget a day off per week, if
you're lucky, maybe a day off afortnight. And you might be
working nighttime as well. Andit's all about you're managing

(11:27):
yourself and then managing alsoyour team. taking advice from
the all those leaders aroundyou, I was really fortunate to
work under a two star US Generalthere for a while, he was a
fantastic man that really taughtme a lot about juggling
professionalism, but alsomanaging your burnout and
managing your people. And alsohaving that that real empathetic
approach, he was a fantasticman. And I learned a lot from

(11:50):
him about how to actually do itall quite calmly as well. No
point getting animated, or, orsort of aggressive with the
people because it mostly doesn'tachieve anything in the end. You
know, you've got to really lookafter your people. And that was
something that I really saw fromhim having such a huge
responsibility to look after allthose 1000s of 1000s of of men

(12:12):
and women over there, and do itso well. And it really just puts
into into perspective, becausefor us in that environment, you
can't just make a big mistake,go to work on Monday morning and
have a team meeting in thecorporate sector, and reset and
think how do we do thisdifferently next time? How do we
get in to do it better? For us,if we'd had that'd be blunder

(12:33):
maybe somebody lost the bodypart lost one of their legs, or
maybe they lost their life. Andyou've heard them deal with
that. And the repercussions ofthat and the knock on effect of
that person and their family, ifthey've got children. It's a
massive responsibility. And it'snot for everybody, I think I
think a lot of leaders maybethink are, I could maybe, you

(12:55):
know, do that role. But inreality, it's a position that
not many of us can really pulloff. Because it's a real small
percentage of people canactually get into that, that
high stakes leadership rolewhere you're facing that threat
every single day. You don't haveweekends over there, you don't
have Saturday or Saturday orSunday, to go for a surf or play
golf or whatever you do. You'reon it every single day. And

(13:19):
you've got to be up for thatchallenge every single day. So
it's a, it's the highest of highpressure environments. It really
is. It's like being in a elitesports, it's like it's like an
elite sports team. And you're inthat team every day. It's like a
NBA team that you're in everysingle day that has to perform
at that elite level. It'sactually it's actually pretty
nice to be part of it, to seeall these incredible operators

(13:42):
around you and how they go abouttheir own business and how they
pull together every day andperform so so professionally,
that's pretty amazing.
Yeah, I'm really hearing the theconnection between how how high
stakes it actually is and how,how high performance is required
for that context. And I just asyou were speaking, I was just

(14:03):
imagining people, findingthemselves rising into that as
as needed. And as they grew asleaders in that context. And I'm
curious if you can share moreabout how how has your
perception of what leadership isevolved over time? And what what
is high performance leadershipto you at this point, having had

(14:25):
all this experience,I think there's a, a bit of a
maybe a disconnect between a lotof leaders that are especially
are sitting now in corporate andthen environment that are very
successful. The company is verysuccessful, maybe they're
earning big money, big salaries,and they might categorize
themselves as being highperformers. But to me, hot

(14:46):
performers, they don't sit idle,they don't sit still. They're
not afraid to go out and take onnew ventures or, you know, when
they fail, they don't take ittoo hard either. I find a lot of
hot water hot performance,especially overseas and I
corrections, they they make amistake. They they learn from
it, they adapt, and they think,okay, how can we how can we get

(15:06):
better next time and they justmove forward. They don't dwell
on that mistake for days andweeks on end. And they release
that small percentage I think ofleaders can be really come
through high performance. It's avery sort of interesting sphere.
And I think as you become moreexperienced in your own career,
you'll learn to identify thosepeople better. And it was a term

(15:26):
back then I suppose in thatearly 2004 2005, of what what is
a high performer, I just startedto learn what this sort of, if
you want to call it a term orphrase, or, you know,
designation is what's a highperformer. And, and I've learned
over the years now of a coupleof decades of dealing with those
people, you know, who weren't,who they are, and how to spot

(15:46):
them, and, and you know, howincredible some of them are not
all of them, some of them are aswhole obsessed with being, I
suppose, at the apex of theirprofession, that they maybe lose
sight, a little bit of thepeople around them, but the ones
that can juggle it, and they canget it right between that high
performance, and also really,really dragging the people their

(16:07):
own people want with them.
They're the special ones, theones that you want to be like
that you aspire to be like, Youthink I want to be like that
person. And I worked under acouple of like I said before, a
couple of great people at a ladyambassador that looked after,
and worked with her for a goodfew years in Iraq as well. And

(16:27):
she was an amazing person andtaught me a lot about the same
thing about being professionalon a daily basis. And so it's,
it's really a, an interestingconcept. And like I said,
there's a lot of leaders youget, you get to the C suite,
especially, they will thinkthey're all high performers. And
they are extremely successful.
But they they run anorganization that some of them

(16:49):
run several, they're on multipleboards, multiple appointments.
And but are they do I categorizethem as an actual high
performer? Some of them I wouldsay that I'm not I don't
categorize that person as a highperformer, because they're quite
comfortable in their role. Theythey're happy being at the top,
but be comfortable in thatposition. And they'd want to
sort of, I suppose, you know,they want they don't want to go

(17:11):
from being maybe, you know,great to extraordinary. And
that's the, it's a bit of a it'sa bit of a cliche, but that's
how I sort of see it.
Yeah. And it's, it's almostlike, sometimes, I think, a high
performer, or someone can maskas a high performer, or present
as a high performer in certainsets of incentives. Right. So it

(17:33):
almost depends what we'remeasuring, as well, as far as
our high performance. And Ithink, especially in business
and the corporate world, thereare a lot of perverse incentives
are outdated metrics, where ifwe are stacking performance,
against these metrics, wherewe're actually measuring the
wrong things when it comes toperformance and these reward

(17:56):
structures that we that we breedour executives within. And it's
I like what you shared about howyou got really good at sniffing
these high performers out and itsounds so human, some of the
attributes that you describedwere you you admire them,
they're these are people thatyou want to you want to be like,

(18:17):
there's there's something inthem that you want to emulate,
and they bring they bring theteam with them. So I'm hearing
it's non, it's non ego driven,in a way when you say that, and
so I'm curious, are there other?
Are there other characteristicsthat that you learned along the
way that are good indicators ofoh, this is, this is a high

(18:40):
performer and someone who canreally help the whole ship rise?
What are some of thosecharacteristics?
I think a big one that I'vereally noticed over the years,
and I love it is the people whocan turn complex into simple. I
think we've, especially withleadership, and a lot of these

(19:02):
terms today, we've got so manydifferent variants now of
leadership, and you see thesegigantic, you know, wheels and
flowcharts of different types ofleadership. And honestly, some
of them, I don't even understandthem myself. I'm like, I don't
even know what you're talkingabout. I'm lost. And I think
they're just trying to createpositions or work for
themselves. Because leadershipreally is a very, very simple
thing. And I mean, trueleadership, about just being

(19:25):
good. Good for your people. It'sabout like I said, Before, you
want your people to one don'twant to aspire to be that
person. You've got to be thatfront and center. And like you
said, you can't you can onlymask or bluff, you know, for so
long until you're actuallyexposed if you're not that true
character. And that's somethingthat I love though is that is

(19:45):
that that Tony complex in asimple and that real simple
approach. And I'll find thehigher that I've worked in life.
And this is working with like acouple of our prime ministers,
you know, the person that runsour country, they actually are
quite sick. upon the approach,they're not complex, their mind
is complex, but their delivery,and how they outlet, an outlet

(20:06):
to their staff and their plansare quite, quite simple because
it works. It's fireproof, ifit's something is very simple,
it works every time. And if youmake it too complex, you are
giving yourself that room tofail. So it's one of these
things that I that I love. Andif I, if I find that I'm running
a course, somewhere incorporate, and it's starting to

(20:29):
turn into something that's,that's, you know more things
through your communication therewith the staff that it's
becoming, you know, to sort ofout of control, you got to
really reel it in, and bring itback to that simple because not
everybody might understand yourlogic, what you're explaining,
but you understand it yourselfin your own brain. You know, if
you're, if you've got this bigcomplex plans, but not the

(20:50):
outsiders don't maybe not get itas well that maybe they don't
understand as well as you do. Soif you can really, you know, and
offense at university a lot,that a lot of the people there
that have got these giganticwords and explanations, that
they'd they'd lose other peopleand translation. They breed
themselves extremely, extremelysmart. And but maybe they lose

(21:11):
some of that. And people willnod their heads and like, I
understand that it's like theyou know, you don't because I
don't understand what they'resaying. And on. And well, my
background, not afraid to callsomebody out and say I've got no
idea what you're talking about.
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, whatyou just, you know, and it's
quite often, I think thathappens more often than we think
that people don't understandyour own process. And I find
that high performers, a lot ofones that I've worked with,

(21:31):
because they're so easy to workwith, because they're very,
very, like they've got bigplans, but they're simple and
their approach. And they reallymake you understand what their
goal is, what their objectiveis, and what they're doing, what
their path is they're going tofollow. It's like, here's my
path, come with me, you know,and they'll drag you along. But
I want to hide things, theydon't want it to be that, I
suppose sometimes you get it incorporate where people want to,

(21:53):
they want to keep everythingclose to their chest, a lot of
the leaders, they don't want to,you know, tell you what their
plans are what they're doing, inthe fear of maybe they're going
to lose their position or losethat, you know, lose that bonus.
I don't know what it is. Butit's very interesting.
Yeah, so I'm hearingtransparency in there as well.
But also this, this moving fromcomplexity to simplicity,

(22:17):
including in the ability totranslate and communicate
effectively, because I thinksometimes the wires are not
connecting properly. And if wecan't really receive one
another's signal, how can weactually organize? How can we?
How can we tap into thatcollective intelligence or the

(22:38):
the cohesion that we couldexperience within teams or high
performance teams? So yeah, Ilove I love this piece about
simplicity. And I can't help butthink about nature as well. And
I think a lot about this assomeone who absolutely loves
regenerative operations and andnature inspired business models.

(23:02):
And nature has a very small setof very simple rules, that life
convenes around. And thosesimple rules have been tried and
true and tested acrossmillennia. And it's actually
quite simple when you distillthem down into just a handful.
And then the creativity can sortof happen around that the

(23:23):
complexity can can get bigger orsmaller around those simple
rules. But it's in hearing yousay that I there's, there's
something in my heart that warmsa bit of like, that actually
sounds a lot like how naturewould do leadership to
Yeah, and you're right, and theway that the animals work and
the way that nature works, theytake the most simple path, they

(23:46):
don't, they don't make it hardfor themselves. They make it
easy. Exactly. They do whatworks for them. And we, we run
our teams overseas like this,when you're dealing with that,
that, that whole crisis andthat, that risk every day,
you've got to make it simple. Soeveryone understands what their
role is what they're doing. Now,I didn't I never micromanage my
guys. And I've said that they'rereally good leaders that are

(24:08):
like that, they don'tmicromanage they, they allow
those people to do what they'regood at doing. They they allow
them to shine to thrive. And yougot to have that faith and that
trust in your team. Because thewhole collective is based on
that you've got to have it'strue, you will have your
individual Bereans, you willhave your individual high
performers that are bring inwhat they do around you. But in

(24:30):
order for that collective to toflourish, everyone's got to work
together in the environment. AndI've seen it firsthand how, how
effective that is how it worksevery day day in day out. My
guys would know their roles.
They would know what their taskswas. I was just there to tell
them where we're going, what ourtimings were. And how are we
getting there. How are wegetting back there as far as
what they did? They they knewtheir roles. And it was like a

(24:52):
well oiled machine every singleday, year after year, with very,
very few people leaving thoseroles because It is so so
amazing to be part of.
When you say rolls, my brainalso translates that into really
knowing your gifts as as aleader or as an entrepreneur.
And if we can show up inservice, basically in ecosystem

(25:15):
service, right, we'd call it in,in ecology, but that that
ecosystem service we provide,can be really consistent. And if
we're very clear about what ourrole is, I mean, maybe maybe
that can grow as our skills andour gifts develop further. But
the the clarity piece, the beingclear on our role and where we

(25:37):
fit in, there's something sodeeply human about that, because
I do believe at my core thatpeople want to do a good job,
they want to be seen for doinggood work. And even children
want to feel like they'recontributing from a very young
age within within theirfamilies. So I do believe that
there's something innate in usto want to contribute. But if we

(26:01):
don't have the clarity, and ifif the role feels very ambiguous
or complex, we can we can geteasily overwhelmed by that and
start to have some of thatexistential crisis of where am
I? Who am I? How do I fit in, Idon't know how to actually plug
my gifts into this, this system,and then we lose so much human

(26:24):
potential, and so muchcollective intelligence. And so
I want to lean into that withyou a bit more around what have
what have you seen in the spaceof collective intelligence? I'm
so fascinated by how teams mightwork together effectively as
well. So what what have younoticed there,

(26:46):
I think you hit on a really goodpoint before where it's like
that, I love that term,individual brilliance, it's
understanding what you're goodat where your gifts, like,
because we're not good ateverything. You know, you might
be better at, you know, drivinga car, and one person, or the
other person is better at maybereading the maps and navigating.
And that can be in, in corporateas well, you know, the whole

(27:07):
setting. And it's about pullingthose people together. Because
sometimes you don't have achoice with the team, as like,
this is a team we have, then,rather than actually working
against each other, it'sactually working at who does
what well. And that's exactlywhat I did with my teams, who
like, Okay, I've got one guyover here, Rob, he's, he's
amazing with the clients the wayhe speaks to them. And he's

(27:28):
going to be the sort of Chiefbody gardener team, we're gonna
have another guy, another guycalled Dave, who he's a
brilliant to I see, he's a guythat's amazing at reading maps,
and on communications. So he'sgoing to be that to IC. That's
what it's all about for usoverseas. Because we had to
adapt on the fly every day, wehad our missions, of course, we

(27:50):
had our, our templates and whatwe were doing every day, but
sometimes we had to adapt on thefly as well on the run. We could
never set patterns, we could notjust go and do the same thing
every day. Otherwise, we wouldbe watched and monitored and
filmed and then blown up. Andthat's the reality and that
order. And you've got to besmart, because you've got to

(28:10):
realize there's people out therethat I actually are trying to
harm us. It's not just going towork, it's going to work with
obstacles every day. So you'vegot to think you've got to think
without being arrogant, you'vegot to think you're better than
your opposition, you've got tothink that you are better
trained, that you have a bettermindset skill set, better
attitudes, and your if you wantto call the call the opposition

(28:33):
that are out there, trying totry to do harm to you. So you've
got to believe that you arebetter. You've got to be lock a
lock windows and let sportsteams that goes out there. Yeah,
a lot of Chicago Bulls in theirheight, they believe that they
could win every single match.
You know, they would go outthere thinking that, you know,
we're going to win this tonight.
That and without, you know, ofcourse, you've got to put the

(28:53):
effort in. But they had suchself belief and such skill set
and all those years of trainingand hard work that you don't see
behind the scenes of a greatsporting team or any sort of
team, that there's not just, itdoesn't just arrive overnight,
it's years and years ofdedication and hard work to get
there. And I've I know, I'vebeen in that world for so long.
And so, you know, I understandwhat works and what doesn't

(29:15):
work. And it's great to be partof it. It really is it's a real
boss to be in that that teamenvironment that that's really
able to take anything on andprevail. You know, over a long
period of time. It's it's reallyit's, you look back at a lot of

(29:36):
what I do now, and it's quitesurreal. A lot of it will be
lived in. It's almost a bit likea movie. It's like a movie set
the whole thing. And it's likeyou're sort of floating into it.
And it's not until you get outof it. You look back at your
experiences and you're like,Wow, that was that was an
incredible time because whenyou're in it, you're not
thinking that way. You'rethinking about staying alive.
You're thinking about gettingyourself and your teammates back

(29:59):
home to their family. And that'syour biggest thing. Of course,
you have the mission, yourobjective to get those things
completed every day. But youwant to get everyone home safe.
And that's that's the mainthings and then the you don't
get that without that teamenvironment. If you've got a
team full of individual peoplethat are brilliant, but they're
not team players, it's justnever going to work. It's just
going to stumble and fall andfall, you're gonna get that

(30:21):
toxicity come in, and thatnegative culture come in. And I
know you hear it a lot thesedays about about culture in the
workplace. But it's so it's soimportant. If you've got that
great culture in any business,whether you have 20 staff, or
200, or 2000. And you want yourpeople go into work on a Monday
morning, and loving what theydo. You don't want them to go

(30:42):
into work Monday morning, andall they're thinking about is
Friday afternoon, that's whatyou do not want. And if you've
got that, that staff under,under anybody that love doing,
what they what they're doing atwork there, then then life's
easy, isn't it? It's just aboutsteering that ship. And you know
about letting your people shineand letting them do what they're
good at.
Yeah, absolutely. And this, thispiece that you brought in around

(31:05):
self belief is such a powerfulone of, of not only adapting,
and witnessing just howadaptable and resilient we can
be, but to have that mindset ofand I also believe I can do
this, I believe I can, I can winor survive or adapt. And so

(31:25):
yeah, I'm I'm curious it'salmost there's there's almost
two places I want to go back. Somaybe we'll go in each
direction. But I want to I wantto maybe table the toxic work
culture piece and circle backaround but But first, I want to
I want to dive into this thismindset of, of adaptability. And

(31:49):
I mean, you faced a lot of a lotof loss, a lot of fear, or could
have been faced with a lot offear in you know, in in these
moments in these experiences. Sowhat were those mindsets or
those self beliefs that got youthrough when things got really
hard or really scary? Even?

(32:13):
Yeah, and I'll I'll I'll backyou up there with the whole fear
thing. Everybody over there hadelements of fear and be scared
at times. You can't be human. Ifyou're in a war zone, especially
those first few years in Iraqwhen I was over there when the
war started. It was it wasinsane. It was it was everything
that you think that war is goingto be and Thomas portent, it was

(32:34):
crazy. On a daily basis. Ibelieve back then there used to
be 2000 reportable incidents perday in Iraq. It was it was
insane. It was insane. And, youknow, a lot of incidents that
never got reported. So yeah,it's, it's, like I said, it's
not a mindset, that's foreverybody. Okay, and it's all

(32:57):
about how you learn, I suppose.
I mean, for myself, personally,I just got to a point where I
thought, you know, you've justgot to back what you're good at,
you've got to back all thoseyears of training, and you've
got that responsibility oflooking after your own
teammates, they're looking toyou for that direction and
leadership. So if you crumble,you know, how are they going to

(33:19):
perceive that. And it was such abig thing for me to want to get
them like I said before, want toget them home. And it's really
a, I suppose it's somethingthat's hard to explain to people
as you've been there, that dayin day out grind of that, that
role. And what it takes to belike I said, you can't just wake

(33:41):
up one day and feeling a littlebit off, and think I'm just
gonna have a day off today orcall in sick, you know, you just
can't do that. You've literallygot to be really really, you
know, on your on your bed, can'tget out of bed before you
actually will be the missionalready canceled. You know, and
the responsibilities of theclients and then money at stake
the you know, the actual thecosting of the whole environment

(34:02):
there. It's, you know,unbelievable the money involved
as well. And a lot of pressureto get it right, a lot of
pressure from above to get itright. And especially the the
roles that we were doing overthere and how much emphasis
there was on the world's mediaand politicians were all
watching us to get this right.
What we were doing over therewith the elections. And we were

(34:24):
doing a lot of a lot of a lot ofwork behind the scenes with the
elections over there in Iraq,and the first time they've ever
had elections in our countryever Independent Elections. And
we were the behind the scenes,making sure that was all working
effectively. So the pressure waswas massive was from your your
your president was basicallywatching that at the time. And
it's really attuned to thatwhole environment and having

(34:47):
that in that incredible sort ofteam of people around you to
make that sort of work.
I mean, here you just list outthe different contextual
pressures and the differentareas that that fall. was into,
right. It's it's financial, it'sphysical, it's political. It's
like environmental, I mean, justthe the level of pressure that

(35:09):
you're describing, I think mostpeople who have not experienced
that will will never actuallyexperience it in their lives.
Yeah, wow. And I can onlyimagine burnout in in that
context as well. And having to,to fight through the the self
leadership and the selfresponsibility that one might

(35:33):
feel where it's not showing upactually isn't an option. I
mean, even even a lot ofexecutive leaders, like when
we're talking about a workcontext, there still is an
option to call out sick or tochange jobs, or to reconfigure
teams. I mean, I suppose youcould maybe do that in the

(35:55):
military as well. But yeah, towhat we can show up to when when
not showing up, isn't a choiceis is pretty remarkable. When it
comes to the self leadership andlevel of responsibility that
you're that you're talkingabout.
Yeah, the things that we had todo at that on the on the run is

(36:17):
our missions, were basicallyworking 72 hour increments. So
you're, you're effectively onthree missions, at the same
time. So your, your processstarts three days out from, from
when a mission will, you know,go ahead. So that the day after
you're on that process from thefrom when you first started that
other mission, you're already onyour second day of another

(36:39):
mission. And then the third day,you're on a mission for another
task, you know, and so you'rethis constant, you're
constantly, you know, revolvingdoor. So your headspace has got
to be there, all the time of ofthe mission you're on. But the
ones coming the next day, no oneis coming the day after that.
And this is how it works all thetime. And you're right with it,
that burnout is such a bigfactor, you've really got to

(37:00):
pace yourself. In regards toyour I suppose training, you've
got to remain, I suppose youhave to be physically fit over
there, you've got to be abovewhat most people think is fit,
you've got a bit of rule whatlevel of fitness you might have
to get out and run for your lifewith 20 kilos of body armor on,
you might have to go and run akilometer with that weight on

(37:21):
with a client. And you know,under fire, you know, under
gunfire, and this is a realityof what you might face,
especially in those specialtyroles that we're doing over
there. And you've got to managethat physical side of it, you've
got to manage your mental sideof things as well. It's that
real juggle and and to avoidburnout. And you'll notice it in
your movies. But we touched onit earlier about one of your

(37:43):
teammates, where they go throughthat, that that change something
changes in a person, you expectthat person to be at a certain
level every day. And you'llnotice those little subtle
changes, and solid changes willthen they'll manifest each day.
And then it gets it gets morenoticeable each day. And you
think, Okay, what's up with thisperson, something's going on.
They isn't the burnout from thejob, but they've got something

(38:03):
going on back back home, inAustralia or back in the States
with their family, it's on theirmind. And you've got to juggle
that. And that was the anotherdifficult part as being a team
leader. You're not just jugglingthe missions, you're juggling
your people and juggling theirlives. And so the team the team
leaders are could last for yearsand years over there without

(38:23):
burning out themselves. I thinkit's a real testament to those
people. It's, it's a tough job,you know, it wasn't easy. And
yet you're dealing with theelements of the Haiti working
in, you know, we an average of48 degrees Celsius or not, that
isn't if you don't comprehendthat, but it's, it's insane. You
know, and we're wearing we'rewearing flight suits, you know,

(38:44):
we're in those charcoalfireproof flight suits every
day. You know, with all of ourall of our combat gear on and,
you know, Kevlar helmets andgloves and, you know, it's so
hot, you can't open a car doorwithout gloves on. You can't
hold a weapon without gloves on.
You know, it's, it's it isinsane. It's so debilitating and
the dust the dust is everywhere.

(39:05):
You know, you can clean your,your desktop before you go to
bed the next morning, you'llwake up and you're sealed room,
and there's a layer of dust onyour desk. So you're bringing
that stuff in every day. And soyou've got to manage that not
just the physical but you got tomanage the physical and the
mental aspect of that every day.
It's the real is that the youget better at it as you go on.
Of course you startunderstanding where your your

(39:27):
own strengths and weaknesses lieand how to how to sort of, you
know how to how to work on that.
I appreciate you painting the,the visceral details there of
walking us through what what theenvironment was actually like
and that it's this physical andmental toughness that that you

(39:50):
constantly have to be attuned tonot only in yourself, but in
each other and what I'm hearingor seeing and what you're saying
too is that The the health ofthe team is dependent on the
health of the individuals. Andif you've got one team player
who's really suffering, I meanthat could that could really

(40:11):
impact the whole situationthough, the health well being
and even lives of the, of thewhole team in this acute
situation. So I'm really seeinglike at the micro and macro
level, how important beingtransparent about that, and
getting to get really good atreading, where people are truly

(40:33):
at emotionally, physically,mentally, so that you as a
leader, I assume, can can thendo what you need to do to
recalibrate there. But it'syeah, it's just so powerful that
and I want to, I want to switchgears a little bit into, because
we have our environmentalcontext that you've just
described, I think anothercontext that that can feel as

(40:56):
real, as our tangibleenvironment is the context of
our culture, which we started totouch on here. And the context
of our of our socialrelationships, I mean, these can
feel they can feel threatening,they can feel triggering, they
can put us in a state of fightor flight. There's so much there
in our own relational traumathat we might have from our

(41:17):
upbringing. It's a differentcircumstance, of course. And the
body can get really up in armsabout it, as we process these
emotions. And workplacetoxicity, I think has probably
always been there in differentforms, but our awareness of how
workplace toxicity shows up inthe forms of inequality or not

(41:44):
having inclusive policies. Imean, there's so there's so much
that we're becoming more acutelyaware of and shifting or
evolving into a better context.
But when in your experience,when you think about what, what
behaviors or mindsets create atoxic work culture, like what

(42:05):
what are some of those behaviorsthat in this petri dish of
culture are actually reallydetrimental or even dangerous?
What shows up for you there?
Well, I think with any any toxicculture, whether it's in the
corporate environment, oranywhere, in any professional

(42:26):
environment, it's either goingto be come from the top, or it's
going to be in that that sort ofLower, lower end. And in the
management itself, whether it'sa giant corporation that has an
element that's actually beenallowed to manifest to get to
that toxic level, and the actualsenior leaders in the execs have

(42:46):
actually got no idea what'sgoing on. I think that's a lot
of time, I do see that bigorganizations, you know, massive
companies, with staff anddifferent floors and levels. And
they don't know what's going onfrom from floor to floor. So
it's all about whether you havethat a culture like I was in a
business a while ago that had aprime example. Where was the

(43:07):
middle management, that you hada bunch of mates, they all
working together, they were justrunning that place. And allowing
it was a lot of nepotism,there's a lot bringing their own
their own bodies, their ownfriends in a and it was a really
bad environment and noidentified in the end that it
was a basic, it was oneindividual that was the one that
was causing all the troublethere. And while it took that up

(43:28):
to up to that senior level wasactually dealing with the CEO
himself there. And it's likethe, it's a very, very simple
fix a, you've got this problemhere. And you basically got a
monster working yourorganization. And this wasn't
something that was determinedover one day, this was this was
discovered over, you know, weeksand weeks and weeks of working

(43:48):
with these people. And if youallow it to manifest, and you
allow that, that, that rot totake place in the organization,
it just spreads like a cancer.
And people become sodisillusioned and they become so
despondent, upset. And you cansee it on their faces. And it's
really sad, and it's sounnecessary. And, and I agree
with what you said, it's gettingbetter. We're becoming so much

(44:08):
more aware now of what'sexpected of people from the,
from their behavior to how theygo about their positions. It is
getting better slowly. And he'stalking about I suppose
inclusive behavior as well. Imean, I've seen some great
female leaders starting toreally come out and shine now.
And that was something even evenjust 20 years ago, it wasn't as

(44:28):
prevalent never to when I grewup in the 70s and 80s. It was
non existent. I think there wasback then it was, I think the
first female CEO of a Fortune500 was appointed in about 72
First one and and now, even inthe I think now it's

(44:50):
incorporates roundabout 6535 isabout the percentage there's
still a lot more men involved,especially at that board level.
Now that he's sick level, thewomen are they're catching up.
But you know, it's it's takingtime. But at that real elite
level of the so your, your top100 organizations, there's still
a mass majority of men that arerunning those organizations.

(45:13):
And, and don't get me wrong, butfor some brilliant, brilliant
male leaders as well. But it's,it's it should get to a point in
life where we're not discussingwhether it's right or wrong,
whether it's male or female, orwhatever gender it is, it should
just be about who the bestperson for the position is,
that's where we need to be at.

(45:33):
And that may take moregenerations, I don't know if
we'll never get there properly.
It may not ever be perfect thatmodel. But that's where we sort
of, I think the debate wherewe're just picking the best
person for the job. And that's,you can only get to that, that
level, though, when you haveeverybody in the basket
together, you know, you can'thave somebody with an advantage

(45:53):
have always been up at the upperlevel. And whether whether the,
you know, the females are tryingto get up to that level, but
they've been they've beeninhibited and pushed down. So
it's and I'll say that a lot incorporate Of course. And look,
people don't wanna speak aboutit. But uh, I'm not like that.
Outside how I see it, but I, itbreaks my heart a lot it does

(46:15):
when you see horrible cultures,and it's something like I said
before, unnecessary just doesn'thave to be this way. And if you
don't identify it, and if youdon't identify the problem, and
it can be anything, I had aanother environment where I had
a senior executive that was, hewas being pretty, pretty
horrible to his staff. And whenI really broke it all down with
him, I got him out of thatenvironment, we got him out of

(46:36):
that building. And we went for awalk one day, I had a bit of a
chat about it. And it wasactually his personal life, I
knew it was I could pick itstraight away that it was
something wrong with hispersonal life. He was going
through a bad divorce and acustody battle. And, and that
was the problem, but he wastaking that out and his staff.
And when you have it from thetop, then it's going to filter
through to the rest of yourstaff and everyone's going to
start hating on each other. Andthat's it's a really bad

(46:59):
environment. So you know, you'vegot to, you've got to really, I
suppose, have that real abilityin any environment to try and
try and fix what's going onthere. What's what's, what's
rotting away?
Yeah, and it's the even just theimage of of rot, or, I guess

(47:19):
toxicity as well, right? It'slike the body can can have toxic
buildup. And there's a processright for detoxifying that and
letting it leave the system thatcan take time. And I do think
that we are we're very much inthat that time period. Now at
least I I deeply, deeply hopeand I can't help but notice, one

(47:42):
thing you seem to point to therewas how sometimes it can come
down to an individual who isshowing up in the dynamics of a
group and maybe maybe they'reshowing up as the alpha, maybe
they're exhibiting control basedego based behavior, where they
can sort of get the team to goalong with some of this toxic

(48:05):
behavior, especially if thatteam is is afraid of them. Or if
they're claiming or hoardingpower information, whatever it
might be to claim to that, thatpositional power that they might
be hungry for. And I think oftenas you alluded to, there's

(48:26):
something more personal going onthere often where maybe that
person has something going on athome, maybe they have unresolved
or unhealed trauma in how it howthey're actually treating
themselves. Because I don't knowif you've noticed this in what
you've seen as well. But I oftenfind that we treat, we treat

(48:46):
others how we treat ourselves.
So if our self talk isincredibly negative, or we have
a lot of self loathing going on,we don't have that self belief
that we talked about earlierthan, then that inner culture
that we might have is sort ofrotten as well. And it's no
wonder to me that that, thatthat permeates or builds up to a

(49:06):
point where it overflows andthen comes into our
relationships and the cultureswe create at work. So I mean,
often on the podcast, we'retalking about how that that
inner work that deep healingwork at the individual level
isn't separate from an effectiveleadership practice. And I'm

(49:31):
sort of hearing that in whatyou're saying. And I'm curious
how, how, if at all, has thatshown up in in your world Have
you have you seen? Have you seenpeople actually overcome toxic
behavior and come out on theother side as maybe a better
leader if they were able to healsome of those more rotten

(49:52):
patterns?
Yeah, I've seen it quite a lot.
And I think you're gonna getboth answers. You're gonna get
some people out there. And I hada prime example of a fellow team
leader overseas that was havinga lot of problems with his team
and his teammates, and even gotto the point where a couple of
his teammates approached me,which is something you generally
don't do and then environmentfor, for answers. So they were

(50:13):
pretty desperate. When you getyour knock on your door at 10
o'clock at night, you know,that's for its reach to a new
level of toxicity. And weworked, I worked in that proper
alpha male environment, thatcohort for years, I understand
it better than better thananybody, believe me. It's Doggy
Dog that will. And when it getsto that level, and I tried

(50:34):
talking to the his team leaderwas a decent guy. Very, very
good at what he did. But it wastoo far gone. And he had just
let it manifest for years andyears and years. And in the end,
he actually lost his position,he lost his very, very highly
paid tax free position, he justcouldn't change. Yeah, I've seen
the other side of the coin,often in the corporate as well,

(50:55):
where somebody can't turnaround. Absolutely. They're
going through a bad phase thatone I was talking about before,
that's that, that exact the thegentleman that was going through
a bad phase in his life, he wasable to turn it around and
really, really reinstall andreally reinvigorate that, that
culture in that environment. Andthat was a big organization that
wasn't some little firm thatthat was a pretty decent sized

(51:15):
organization. So I believe itcan happen, but it's got to be
the individuals got to want tochange, that person has to want
to change, you can't do it forthem, you can advise them, you
can guide them, you can helpthem. But if they don't want to
do it themselves, you know,they've, they've got I mean, I
always feel bad face myself,where I, you know, I had a lot

(51:35):
of loss overseas. And then Icame home and I was going
through a very bad divorce andmy father died, it was like
everything is compounding at thesame time. And, you know, I
ended up making that decisionthrough I'm with a lovely,
lovely lady now that she was theone that really helped me to go
and go and talk to somebody. AndI did it first time in my life
later, when I actually went inand spoke to a person for that
bit of advice, you know, just abit of help there. And to really

(51:59):
reassess and get yourself out ofthat, that bad phase you're
going through and get yourmentality back on track. And I
think a lot of a lot of myformer colleagues that really
suffered a lot of took theirlives because I didn't seek that
help. I didn't go and talk to apsychologist or psychiatrist or

(52:19):
whatever it is somebody toactually try and help them
through that bad phase. Andthere's nothing wrong with that.
There's nothing wrong withputting a hand up and saying,
Hey, I need a bit of help here.
I'm really struggling with this.
You know, because I've seen,witnessed personally, the
biggest, strongest, toughestguys you can ever imagine, is
Special Forces operators thathave taken their lives because
they they didn't reach out forhelp. And they ultimately and

(52:41):
and once you're gone, Nicole,you're not coming back. You're
you're you're gone. And it'sit's a tragedy. You know, it's a
really is a it's a really,really sad state of affairs.
Yeah, yeah, it truly is. Ireally I commend you for, for
doing that deep work and gettingasking for the help and then

(53:02):
going out and getting it Ithink, I think sometimes we
don't realize how how dire thesetoxic environments or these
these highly stressfulenvironments can can be on on
our mental well being. And wewere just talking the other day,
my team over at HarvardUniversity in the the exec ed

(53:23):
program that we run, about howwe've seen work trauma play out
to a point where if someone hasexperienced that deep work
trauma, and they don't know whatthat is, or they don't go get
the help, like they, they mightnot, they might not be taking
their lives in the acutesituation that you're

(53:44):
describing. But there's theydon't come back, like the light
in their eyes doesn't come back.
And I don't think that, thatleaders who are exhibiting these
toxic behaviors, necessarilyrealize that, that through
bullying or control or justbeing unkind to straight up with
with words and how and how wespeak to one another. It's like

(54:07):
this can ripple into reallyunhealthy coping mechanisms for
people whether it's dipping intovery poor mental health or
alcoholism or isolation. And sothere's there's a sensitivity
that that I'm feeling in thisconversation around the impact
that toxic work culture canhave. And I think if someone if

(54:31):
someone has either been like theperpetrator, right of the toxic
work culture, or the quoteunquote victim of the toxic work
culture, there's a lot of deepwork that that has to come on on
the tail end of that to actuallyheal from it and sometimes
people might not come back whichis which again, is such a loss.

(54:54):
It's a loss of human potential.
It's a loss of human life in thecase that you're describing, and
that that piece is so is sotragic to me, it's like I really
see, I really see what's atstake as leaders in all in all
sectors here and the world, orthe future that we that we

(55:17):
create through our cultures.
Yeah, I really believe as wellthat to be in that mind space,
where you have a leader oranybody that who who's coming
down hard, and it's tough, likeyou said, whether it's bullying
in the way they speak, speakdown to them, it's hard work,
it's actually, I think, must behard work. And for that person

(55:39):
must suck the energy out of themto actually be not nice to be
nasty. My daughter made a greatpoint. And the other week like
that, she said, It must bereally hard work to be not nice,
it's actually it's actually mucheasier, just to be nice to
people in life. You know, it'slike all that energy you're
consuming and using to actuallybe nasty. And I don't really

(56:01):
understand it must be somethinginside those people, I suppose
that they just, it's just howtheir brain functions maybe. And
it's the ones that can comeback. That's fantastic. And like
you said, there's the other sideof the coin, the ones that
can't, or the ones that justlike you said, they just fade
away. You know, and it's verysad for the people that are the
ones who who are targeted aswell, that, that, that you lose

(56:21):
these great people because theyjust can't put up with it
anymore. They just don't takeit, they can't take it anymore.
They're not mentally tough ormentally strong, and they just
leave. And that's it's an it canhave a profound effect on us
people for years. Sometimes, youknow, that workplace bullying
and harassment, and it's just, Ithink it's a human being you
must, and I don't understandpeople who don't feel terrible
about it, that, you know, they'dbe finding it and the track that

(56:43):
somebody left because of thatperson that left an
organization. And you think, ona school that is a cruel place
at school can be very tough whenyou're you're young, but you'd
like to think when you get intothe your adult use of that
should disappear. But it doesn'tsometimes it gets worse. And
it's it really is a shame. But Imean, for us overseas and my
teams, I just refuse to put upwith that. If somebody was like

(57:06):
that on the team, they couldn'tstay. They couldn't they
wouldn't last. We we had a wehad a culture that was so
incredible. And and soprofessional, and we we we
weren't just what robots youknow, we just have a lot of
laughs and a team. And, youknow, a lot of humor that most
people would probably findpretty crass. But that's how we
got around it. It's how yousurvived out there together all
those years. And but we had sucha great culture. And that was

(57:29):
guys from different parts of theworld. You know, a lot of guys
from the UK in the States. And Istill speak to those, those
those operators all these yearslater, we still could contact
because we had such a greatculture there. I think it's a
real, it's a real thing. It's areal important point that if the

(57:49):
definition of a really greatleader, is they're still
speaking to their people, many,many years after their partner
wise, it's a real good exampleof you know, what their posts
did a great job because they'restill in touch with their teams
and the people that worked underthem for years, but that's how
well they treat the mostdaunting part of their life.
Okay, it's a great example.
Yeah, I agree. I love that. It'salmost like, if that's the case,

(58:12):
it means that the relationshipwasn't just transactional, it
wasn't just let me extract thisvalue from you. It means the
relationship was human and, andthat is, is so beautiful. And I
feel like I feel like the flipside of the coin here to sort of
end on a high note, as we wrapup our our deep conversation, I

(58:35):
mean, we've traversed loss,we've traversed, bullying,
toxicity, that there's there'sso much here high performance,
but I want to I want to flipthat coin that we were just
investigating where it like hurtpeople hurt people is is really
what I believe. And so if thatif that is true, it makes me

(58:58):
feel hopeful, actually, thatthat healing work is in our
control. And like you said,people have to choose that they
have to be ready for it, theyhave to want it. But it's in you
hear this in other spaces, ifwe're the problem, we can also
be the solution. And I hope thatthrough cultures where these

(59:20):
more conscious, high performingleaders are modeling and
embodying these healthier waysof of leading that it sets the
tone, it sets the example for,for others to step into that
culture to even begin toinvestigate these things of oh,
I didn't know that was possible.
I didn't know I could have goodmental health and not burnout at

(59:42):
work. I didn't know I could haveboundaries. I didn't know I
didn't have to put up with withthis bullshit. Like it's, I
mean, it's amazing when you seeit modeled. You go ah, oh, okay.
Something something healthy orsomething more generative, more
human is, is possible. So I hopethat for those of us doing the

(01:00:05):
work and getting the help inmental health, that let let that
be an invitation. And and letthat be sort of this this safe
space, if we're transparentabout it and speaking about it
as we are now, where were othersfeel safe enough to maybe choose
that themselves, or at leastinvestigate it and, and to put a
stop to some of these harmfulpatterns that we see in schools?

(01:00:30):
In work in families? I mean,that the work heals all of those
areas at once, I feel. Soanyway, a bit of a rant there,
but I guess, Mark, do you, doyou have any, any final words
of, of perhaps hope, or, or whatyou see coming down the pipeline

(01:00:54):
in terms of leadership that wecan look forward to or expect
in, in, say, the decade to come?
It's gonna be a realtransitional time. I think COVID
has really expedited that changeas well. It's made people really
aware of their theirenvironments, what's, what they,

(01:01:15):
what's going to work for them,what's going to work for the
business going forward. I thinkthe leaders, they're gonna have
to be very adaptable, and veryunderstanding moving forward of
different work environments,whether it's hybrid work
environments, whether it'sshorter weeks, or staff working
from home, it's gonna be reallyinteresting to see how that all
pans out in the future. And Ithink the, there's a lot,

(01:01:36):
there's a lot of positive signs.
It's just how it whether thesecurrent models that we're seeing
right now, in a corporate sortof more corporate environment
with empty offices and thingslike this, whether that comes
back to being a bit more sort ofnormal, how it was maybe five
years ago, or whether itactually continues on, and we
just still have a certainmajority of staff, because some

(01:01:59):
organizations, they have to havestaff there, you can't just do
everything on his own. But othermodels, you don't need that. You
don't even have to go on towork, you can work out of your
home, if you work in it, orthings like this, you know,
maybe they have to have one, oneor two zoom meetings a week, and
then they can do their ownthing. So it's gonna be
interesting to see how thatgoes. And I think for

(01:02:20):
leadership, it's going to haveto be like I said before that
that rule adaptability, that,understand that people in the
future, especially the youngergeneration coming through now,
they're pretty fearless. They'renot scared to or frightened to
leave a job anymore. at will,years ago, when I was working in
that environment, people thathave kept on to their kept their

(01:02:43):
jobs for years, because theythey're scared to leave even in
a toxic environment. They'rejust scared to leave because of
their mortgages. And but a lotof young kids coming through now
they're just like, I'm not goingto put up with this home. I'm
out of here. I'm gone. Andthey're leaving now that I'm
seeing corporate, you may seeyourself as we're on a call.
They're living in teams. Now.
Yeah, this is a new trend. Ihave one a while ago, 1616

(01:03:06):
people on this team, they leftbank, we're going we're going
through a rough organization intwo weeks time, like Hi. And
that director I was dealingwith, she like had a she was a
COO She almost had a meltdownover at what am I going to do? I
said, I don't know. There's noquick answer for you. I can't
give you a golden answer. Ithought it was your 16 staff.

(01:03:28):
And they were very important tothe organization going to a
rival because they weren't happyanymore. They felt I've been
disrespected and not, you know,not enough love going around, I
suppose. And but they I thinkthey actually had a bit of a
pretty decent reason to be.
There was there was a lot of lotof messages. They didn't read
the room, you know, that thatorganization and they lost all
those staff. And so I thinkthat's going to be a big one

(01:03:48):
going forward. And I hope thatthat education of just culture
and what's what's expected howpeople should be treated in the
workplace gets better. Andthat's that's all hope, isn't
it? That we just get better?
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Well, Mark, it has been such apleasure. Thank you for for
leaving us with those thoughtsas we as we wrap up today. And

(01:04:10):
if people want to learn moreabout you or follow your work,
where can they find you online?
Is My Business very simple. It'sjust mark Ashby consulting.com.
listeners can email me directlyat Mark at Mark Ashby
consulting.com. I'm quiteprevalent on LinkedIn, as well.

(01:04:34):
And so that's that's my sort ofbe platform for getting all my
you know, all the informationout there. And, and I'm actually
just about to start writing fora industry expert magazine. It's
called an industry expert. Andthat's going to be pretty
exciting venture as well. SoI'll be doing a monthly sort of
a piece on high performanceleadership in that magazine as
well.
Right on congrats, that's good.
Yeah. Fantastic. Wow. Well,thank you again, Mark, and Lynn

(01:04:57):
listeners. Thanks so much fortuning in. And I think we'll
leave you with the message todaythat remember, if you can heal
yourselves, you can heal yourculture and together we can
ground a better future forbusinesses and humanity. So
thanks for listening today.
We'll see you next week. Theinner work is often the hardest

(01:05:21):
work, but it is the workrequired for lasting change and
a healthier future for us all.
If you found the show valuable,please leave a review and
subscribe. You can also take adeeper dive with me at Nicole
bellisle.com Thanks again forbeing here and showing up for
your new self. Your future selfis certainly thank you

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Being Resilient & Adaptive in the Face of Crisis | Mark Ashby | Ep. 17

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Being Resilient & Adaptive in the Face of Crisis | Mark Ashby | Ep. 17