February 14, 2023 • 70 mins
What does the future of community, governance and finance look like?
Humanity is a massive evolutionary moment across all systems. Many of our systems are failing, and we’re seeing the harmful limitations of our dominant western culture play out on a global scale. When you layer in climate change and biodiversity loss, the future starts to look pretty grim…
However, humanity is adapting and prototyping new ways of being and doing, all around the globe. Today’s guest, Martin Theis, is one of these humans. Through various communities and the music scene in Germany, Martin has first hand experience playing in non-monetary systems of exchange, self-organizing communities of creation, and different governance structures.
In this episode:
- Piloting new ways of doing community, governance and value exchange
- Prototyping money-less economies
- Embodying our values to serve as models to others
- Governance and decision making in a self-organizing system
- Moving from transaction to reciprocal generosity
About Martin Theis
Martin is a spiritual coach and teacher who focuses on mental and emotional well-being through the art of shamanic journeys.
The coaching practice Light Trails Co.'s mission is to assist others on their journey from suffering to inner peace and joy.
Martin lives in Germany, Norway and Hawaii and is in the process of building a decentralised network of non-profit orginizations that aim at building low entrance barrier refuges for people to find healing and regeneration.
Learn more about Martin and his work: https://www.lighttrails.co/webinar-series/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey leaders Welcome to the showI am with a wonderful human
(00:03):
being named Martin Tice. Today,Martin is a spiritual coach and
teacher who focuses on mentalhealth and well being through
the art of shamanic journeying.
And he splits his time betweenGermany, Norway and Hawaii. So
naturally, as a fellow digital,global Nomad, I was very curious
to talk to Martin. So Martin andI hopped on to get to know one
(00:26):
another before recording thisepisode. And I got to learn
about the wealth of knowledgethat this man has around
building communities, andspecifically piloting new ways
of governance, value exchange,and relationship building inside
of these communities. And fromwhere I sit looking out in the
(00:47):
vast landscape of leadership, Ifind that building this skill
set of piloting, iterating, andeven failing is so important for
the world that we are nowgetting to build the collective
future that we are now steppinginto. Together, we all get to
participate in this. Martinbrings some really interesting
(01:10):
nuggets around money listeconomies, embodying our values
as leaders to really modelversions of community and
economy that we perhaps havenever seen before. If we've
never seen it, how can we knowhow to really participate with
it, often we bring the verythings from the old system that
(01:31):
we are trying to move away from.
So he's seen a lot. And he'sgoing to walk us through today,
how he has seen differentgovernance and decision making
structures work inside of selforganizing systems, which I
believe really is the way of thefuture on this path to moving
(01:56):
from a transactional way ofrelating into really reciprocal
generous relating across all ofour relations. Thanks for being
here. And let's get into theepisode, Martin and I hopped on
a call just to get to know oneanother. And I was blown away by
the wisdom that he has aroundcommunity building and
(02:18):
prototyping different governanceand decision making structures
within community. He also has alot of experience when it comes
to curating money lists,economies or different forms of
value exchange within communitythat we might not be used to. So
as we collectively move fromtransactional forms of relating
into something more generous andreciprocal, what can we learn
(02:43):
from what Martin has seen inthese communities where they're
not using money, most of us havenever experienced that before
and have no idea how to bringourselves and our mindsets to
that sort of environment. SoMartin, in this episode also
shares his perspective on how weas leaders can really model the
(03:07):
very values that we're invitingpeople to move into in some of
these newer structures that weare helping to build. Martin
also dropped some wisdom aroundself organizing systems and
adaptive leadership ordistributed leadership. And both
of these are different, again,than what we typically see
(03:29):
inside of a hierarchicalorganization, for example, where
we are turning to one person ora very small subset of people,
for the answers and for ourdecision making. This is a very
intellectually stimulatingepisode. And I hope you enjoy
traversing these topics as muchas Martin and I did. Thanks
again for being here. And let'sget into the episode. Martin I
(03:50):
am so looking forward to ourconversation today. Thank you
for being here and beingpresent.
Thank you for the invitation.
The pleasure is mine as well.
Thank you.
I've been so looking forward tothis since we first spoke and,
and to offer a little context toour listeners, Martin and I met
through pod match, which isactually almost like a dating
(04:13):
service or a dating app forpodcast hosts and guests. And
I've been really impressed withthe quality of guests that I've
been finding and Martin is noexception. We hopped on a few
weeks ago to drop into what wemight speak about today and
there's a depth there's there'ssuch a depth in this being that
(04:35):
sits before me and the wisdomthat he brings. So Martin I want
to I want to pick up where weleft off last time because I
found this to be so profound andand such a such a beautiful
doorway into the conversation. Ihope we have today. And last
(04:57):
time we had shared that in thehall. Over an executive
education program that I'm apart of, we do this incredible
activity called our a deepclimate story. And essentially,
we take the executives throughthis 100 year timeline, where
(05:17):
each executive plots on thetimeline the year where they
think they themselves will die.
And if they have children, theythen also put a point on the
timeline of when they thinktheir children will live to. And
from there, we start to weavethis context of, of climate
science, essentially, andlooking at what some of the
(05:41):
predictions are from, fromvarious futurists, and what we
know about various systemscollapse that we might see in
the years to come. And as we'reweaving this, some of the
executives are starting to tearup starting to visibly cry, I
mean, it's so emotional to, tonot only face our mortality, but
(06:04):
also the mortality of of ourfuture generations and the
reality that they might bestepping into. And by the end of
this activity, we paint thestory that not all hope is lost,
the the humans who who make it,the humans who design our new
world, and the systems, orcommunity structures that that
(06:29):
are resilient enough in thefuture, these are the groups
that started to iterate andprototype different ways of
being much earlier on in thetimeline, in in the times that
we find ourselves in today. AndI've been so excited to talk
with you about this. Because ifwe, if we accept this for a
(06:50):
moment that we are in a momentof have a deep need to prototype
these systems, and begin testingiterating getting really
uncomfortable, moving throughour fears, letting go of ego
being comfortable with failing,so that we are not wasting any
(07:11):
more time in this prototyping. Imean, this is there's so much at
stake when when you look at itthrough this lens, and you're
someone who, who has someexperience looking at these
different formats for communitygovernance. And so I just want
to invite you into thisconversation through through
(07:34):
that deeper context and ask,what what have you? What have
you experienced in this in thisrealm of of prototyping? And can
you can you help paint a pictureof, of what you see possible in
in this arena? I know, that's abig question.
(07:56):
Yeah. So I want to I want todisclose or break it is closer,
this is just my personal pointof view, you know, I everything
that comes out of my mouth istainted. So. But absolutely, I
think the most important thingwe have to admit right now is
that there is this need forprogress. And there is this need
(08:18):
for everything that you justmentioned. But there are also
people who will be holding onsteadfast steadfastly to the old
to the material kind of securityand to the old ways in terms of
system models, organizations,everything. So always to be
aware that it's not we are alloff into this new world, and
(08:43):
we're diving into somethingunknown, but that there will be
resistance from the systems thatwe are currently facing, you
know, so just to to frame thisin the right way. And from from
our experience as a collective,but just maybe as a reference
for you. I was part of acollective in Germany that was
(09:06):
investing their energy intocreating spaces, cultures,
cultural spaces, and musicspaces for all people without
any limitations, accessbarriers, financial barriers, so
we were trying to give everybodygood time basically and to
express ourselves and move movethe system that we were in which
(09:27):
was difficult. In the in thesense of that the city cologne
was not inviting collectives tocreate these kinds of spaces,
but we were we were vigilantesor kind of Gorilla, Gorilla
organizations who did thesethings and now and so my, my
(09:47):
personal point of view on thisis that there is a shift going
on from pure hedonism from kindof like partying and self
expression and to, to being moreaware of the problems that we
have, and that we can connectthese things with each other, we
(10:10):
can dance, we can have a goodtime. But it's also important
that we have a space for maybeworkshops or for lectures where
people thought leaders come up,and they just share what they
what they learned. And so Ithink, at least what I
experienced in different kindsof places is that there is an
(10:34):
awareness of a need to goforward and to find new
solutions. But then it's alsodifficult, like it is really
difficult in the sense of it isgrassroots movements who don't
make a living out of that, andthey are opposing, in a sense. I
(10:55):
know of like the thrivingindustry where money is a big
player, you know, and so it canfeel a little disempowering To
be honest, like, where we arethese, we are just a small group
of people, how should we changethe status quo, you know, and
(11:16):
sometimes forgetting that, bysharing all that, and by
creating more more organizationsin the image of that, that it is
about, like the masses,probably, but from all that you
said, I would say that the deepdive into timeline is helping to
(11:36):
really see we don't have anytime. But also on the other
hand, to not or to avoid fallinginto this anxiety trap, you
know, that everything is lost,we, we don't have to even try
because everything's gone downthe drain anyways, you know, and
seeing as these exit executivesthat you described, seeing how
(12:00):
the world is going to change howtheir children are going to
experience certain things thatthey experienced probably when
they were young, probably incontext to nature. And the
beauty of nature, I think thatis what what would come to my
mind that if I imagine my kids,if I had kids and 3040 years
(12:22):
would be visiting some of myfavorite places in the world,
and that they might not evenexist anymore, let alone the
animals and mass extinction thatwe're currently like, in the
middle of that would that woulddefinitely what that resonates
with me from that point of view.
So I think it is important tojust be aware that we don't have
(12:44):
like, maybe, maybe I can't saylike this. There's a famous
famous and beautiful quote fromfrom from Buddha. It's supposed
to be from the Buddha and it'sBefore enlightenment, we chop
wood and carry water. And afterenlightenment, we chop wood and
(13:05):
carry water. So we have to workanyways, right? We as human
beings have to sustainourselves, we have to do certain
things we have the effort thatis going to be life itself. So
why not focuses on focus it onsomething that is moving
forward, something where we maybe making some mistakes, but
also where we learn somethingwhere we try stuff out. And
(13:25):
rather than kind of like beingin this comfortable position,
where it's all on autopilot, andwe're just cruising through, I
don't know our lives so that inthe end, we have 1010 years if
we're lucky, sometimes where weget money and don't have to work
right and so why not use thatelement of we have to we have to
(13:46):
sustain ourselves anyways, whynot make it something beautiful
and expression of creativity andof life and of beauty,
compassion, love? Why not dothat instead of just defaulting
into this old mode of how weused to do things?
Yeah, beautifully said I love. Ilove the imagery of the of the
(14:11):
Buddha quote that you that youbrought in there. And I think
there are a few threads that Iwant to pull on here that feel
really significant. And one isthe appreciation for you naming
that. This can all be true. Ouryou know, our context can be
sort of spiraling into a lot ofcomplexity or chaos or systems
(14:36):
collapse and we don't need to beall Bloomsday about that in
fact, to to be purely in thenegative or to be in the fear we
lose access to that executivefunction in our brain we lose
access to the the hope and thethe love within that that keeps
(14:56):
us going even through those hardtimes. So having In this, this
positive outlook of, yes, let mekeep chopping the wood and
collecting the water. And let melet me maybe do this in a way
where I have a bit of a longerterm view on how the way that I
chop wood or where I collect thewater might impact future
(15:20):
generations. And I also want totouch on what you mentioned
about about money as well, theimage that came to mind as you,
as you shared about how, as weseek to change as we seek to
evolve these systems in the bestways that we can, that there
(15:43):
will be a lot of resistance tothat. And what comes to mind is
almost this biological image,right of when the body has a
virus er has these, theseforeign invaders that come into
it, the whole system, as a formof self preservation, and
protection and longevity, goesinto this survival mode. And
(16:07):
it's, it sees that that youknow, those invaders as as a
direct threat, and it's going todo what it needs to do to
survive. And so I often see thatbiological metaphor in, in how
in how we approach change andhow, how I empathize actually,
(16:28):
with the the monetary systemsthat we have, and the
hierarchical systems that thathave thrived on collecting and
maybe even hoarding power, forexample, or have really
benefited from creating thesewealth gaps. It's it's become
these have become strategies forthe continued lunge, longevity
(16:52):
of that type of system. So it'slike, yes, of course, it's going
to go down swinging, of course,it's going to go down fighting,
and how do we love it all theway through? How do we hospice,
that system, all the way throughto its death day, and let that
actually be a beautiful thing.
Because then the energy that wasembedded in that system and the
resources that had been suckedup by that system, are
(17:17):
redistributed elsewhere, becausethe the other thing I really
resonate with in what you said,is, when you step outside of the
system, it does feeldisempowering, that there is
often not money, and we do havethese basic needs to support
ourselves. So so how do we, howdo we lovingly divest from the
(17:40):
systems that have maybe grown solarge, that they are harming us
and our planet? And at the sametime, be be experimenting, not
with a doomsday urgency need,because that's a red flag to
that takes us out of our ownalignment. But be doing this out
of love for the planet love forfuture generations? Whatever our
(18:04):
reason might be? So yeah,there's there's so much there's
so much in, in what you'resaying. And I yeah, I'm curious.
I'm curious, as I say, all thatwhat shows up for you in what
you've in what you've seen orwhat you hope for in in the
future.
(18:26):
Yeah, I think I think it is, islike when you started speaking,
I thought about a lecture from acartrawler. And where he just
uses the meta or the, thathigher higher plane that you
described, about consciousnessitself, that even if the goal
(18:49):
the whole planet would fear,what would experience a mass
extinction and 90% of life wouldbe wiped out consciousness
itself would stay the all theexperience everything, all that
that state of consciousnesswould, would be reborn and would
(19:11):
be reborn even more with, withmore complexity with more
awareness with more kind oflike, with a higher state of
consciousness in itself, andjust that as a context is for
me, kind of like that. In thatthat emotional pacifier or maybe
even spiritual pacifier that Ihave to suck on sometimes when I
(19:34):
get too gloomy, because I feellike Oh, my God, everything is
going down the drain and nothingis happening and everybody is
just like, totally absorbed withtheir own individual lives. And
so when when I'm on thatspiraling, or on that spiral
down, then I just remember Okay,well, consciousness itself is
(19:55):
still here, won't go away. Andwe do Like, it's all going to be
fine. And in a sense, you know,that was one thing that I, that
I thought of when you werespeaking. And that it is our
responsibility to be honest tolearn as human beings to be able
(20:17):
to see the beauty in thedestruction to be able to kind
of like see the glass half full,you know, we are trained in this
in a like, in a in a, in a greatway. At least in all those
places where I went to so far Ihave been mostly in the in the
(20:39):
in the West, as you said, or theglobal north. So everywhere I
went, I saw that there is agreat disposition to negativity
or to being socialized in a waywhere it is focusing on the bad
things. And I think that is ourgreatest responsibility as human
beings to be able to elevate,Sue that pattern into something
(21:00):
where it's, it's getting moreconstructive, because as you
mentioned, the the worst thingwe can do is just write it off,
I think it's all it's all past,any, any anything we can do
anyways and to let go, and thenall the creativity, all the
systems, everything that wecould come up with, if we stay
(21:21):
productive, if we stay positive,they we won't have access to
that. So I think that is themost important thing to find
each person individually, butalso in these in these
organizations in these systemsin these communities, to find a
way to keep that elevated state,in a way and to regain it kind
(21:44):
of like when we do sports, anathlete who is really good in
good shape, their pulse is goingdown really fast when they had a
like a really extremelyextensive or intensive peak with
their heart rate, right. And wemeasure how well someone is
trained how fast that pulse goesdown into the normal average
(22:07):
kind of zone. And so to be ableemotionally and spiritually in
with our whole being, to kind oflike find that balance. Again,
when there is a negative impact.
When I had an argument or astressful situation where
something bad happened, how longdoes it take for me to regain my
composure? I think that is kindof that what I think about what
we have to do, because when weget to do that, then we are able
(22:31):
to help others to just be therewith that state, we don't have
to do anything to just like bein that awareness. And to help
them therefore to regain theircomposure and to find that
balance. And I thinkorganizations and communities
were able to facilitate thatprocess and to help each other
out are much more resilient thanothers where everybody fights
(22:55):
for themselves and tries to getahead and on and on. You know.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I thinkthat that is so it's so
important that we investigatewhat maybe these new reflexes
are or these these responseswithin us this because it almost
(23:16):
feels like a skill set to beable to navigate with self
regulation in our systems tostay to stay online to stay
connected to be able to nurtureourselves through really
difficult things or show up forone another that it feels so
important that we build thatmuscle and that we we develop
(23:37):
those those reflexes, especiallyif those triggering or difficult
events become more prevalent ina way. And the the other thing
that you mentioned around sortof incentives, right, it's, I
think, what I'm what I'm seeingin, in what you just shared
(23:59):
there is our incentive structurealso changing at the same time
that these reflexes grow. We'velived inside of a system for
very long where theindividualism or the the
individual gain rather thancommunity focus has has been the
way at least in the Global Northand you see these, these very
(24:23):
deep patterns of extraction,consumerism, overindulgence, all
of these behaviors have havealmost become the cornerstone or
the value set that sit at ourbasic incentives. And you
mentioned music earlier and Ican't help but think of Burning
(24:44):
Man as an example where there'sa very different set of values
are a very different set of, ofsimple rules that that community
convenes around and there'sthere's this beautiful ebb and
flow Oh, I have, okay, withinwithin these agreements within
these very basic and simplerules, we get to create, we get
(25:08):
to interact with our, with ourchanging environment and the art
or the the offerings that thatothers might be gifting in, in
that particular economy, ormicro economy. So I want to, I
want to ask more about in yourexperience in the collective.
(25:32):
Talk to us about the theincentives, or the value set
that existed at the core ofthat. And what were some of
those, those skill sets orreflexes that were then unlocked
because of, say, a differentvalue set than we're used to
(25:52):
now?
So when you when you werespeaking, and I think it's
interesting that you asked thatspecific question is that, all
in all, when was the lastfestival that we did as a
collective was 2017. And whenthe the final building and
(26:17):
creation phase of the festivalstarted, we were probably four
weeks ahead of the festival, wewere there. And then two weeks
after, and the five days of thefestival, and during that time,
like you said, it is amicrocosm, and it's it's so
interesting. I mean, this is theprobably the most beautiful
(26:37):
experience I personally had inmy life. And during this
experience, we didn't need anymoney. We didn't, I didn't have
my wallet for eight weeks. And Ididn't need to pay for anything,
except for when we left thatmicrocosm and went to some place
where we needed to buy tools orresources or anything like that.
(27:00):
But we were in this microcosmwhere everybody was just
enjoying what they did, andbuilding out of that come out of
that love out of that mode,right. And so, because of this,
the more people came to thisfestival side, they entered into
this loving Space of Creation ofcreativity and empowerment,
(27:25):
because we had principles whereit's about everybody is able to
do everything. We're not wedidn't we had hierarchies, we
tried them try to have them askind of like, equally or equally
distributed as possible. Butinformation power or whatever
you want to call it, is they areso we were aware that it's it's
(27:48):
not possible to have nohierarchy or to have like a
completely fill out here, orCuba to at least give all the
people the chance to participateand do whenever they wanted to
do something. So you're in thiscompletely self organized space
where more and more people comein, because the festival is
coming closer and closer. And atsome point festival guests are
(28:11):
coming. But because ourprinciples were that it was more
of a we create this togetherthen service industry. So even
though people purchased tickets,they knew that there was going
to be work to be done and thatthey participated and that they
helped out and that food anddrinks were given for donation
(28:34):
on a Donations base. So thewhole system was so foreign to a
large group of people who hadnever experienced anything like
that. Yet, at the same time,being enough people who held
that space, that the newcomerswho had never experienced that
were kind of like, gently taughtor gently kind of like
(28:57):
introduced into such a foreignspace in a sense, you know, and
so I still remember my brotherwho always heard of this
collective but had never beenpart of any parties in Cologne
because he was living somewhereelse. And when he after the
(29:18):
first evening came to me Hismind was blown. He said, Dude, I
had no idea that what's going onhere? I've never seen anything
like this. And that's that'swhat I feel is the beauty of
these concepts that it isdifficult for for people who are
have never experienced anythinglike that to imagine it because
(29:40):
it's, I would say impossible.
But once they experience it,they see they're just like
mesmerized and they feel likethis is this is unknown. I've I
never knew this was possible.
You know, and this is just whatI wanted to share. What maybe I
went a little bit off that backfrom your question, but the
(30:02):
principles are probably found inequal rights, you know, love,
love what you do. Everybody isinvited to participate in
create, make mistakes. And,yeah, so yeah,
(30:26):
that's amazing. It's, I thinksometimes when, when we don't
have a mental construct, orwe've never seen that example,
it can be really hard to fathomor to imagine into what these
different spheres might mightbe. But especially in a festival
(30:48):
scene, or this microcosm ofdifferent values that you're
describing. There's somethinghappening on an embodied level,
it sounds like as well, whereit's almost like being children
again, right, where we get to,we get to witness another person
showing up differently, showingup interacting with others in a
(31:10):
different way, moving from adifferent set of, of incentives.
And getting to emulate that as aform of, of learning. So what I
love about this microcosm of thecollective you're describing and
the the events or experiencesthat that you put on is that
it's almost like a form of play,to to get to come back to our
(31:36):
infancy in this completely newconstruct, as newcomers, to get
to experience a different way ofbeing in community a different
way a value exchange, adifferent way of offering our
gifts. And I almost think youcan, you can explain with words
or through mental constructstill the cows come home to
(31:57):
someone who's never experiencedthis. But there's nothing like
getting inside of thatexperience and having your body
pick up on all of those millionsof signals and observations and
have that aha moment of, oh mygosh, this is it's blowing my
mind. But on a heart level, on aon an embody level I'm getting,
(32:20):
how different this is. And nowyou have access to those other
those other constructs. So Iactually love this form of
piloting in this way, like thismicrocosm is such a test of, of
a non monetary system, forexample. And I'm curious within
(32:41):
that setting, what whatbehaviors right, because most of
us, unless unless we've been ina festival setting like this,
we've never experienced lifeoutside of a monetary system,
most of us, so when you're inthat setting, what are some of
(33:02):
the behaviors that you noticed?
And what did you experience inyourself what was coming online
for you as a human being insideof this very different
construct?
So I would say I have or thegroup that did the majority of
(33:26):
the planning and the whole, thewhole structure, I would say we
had a special function, or aspecial kind of like, maybe
real, just, it is difficult toexplain, because we were outside
a little bit of that festival.
We weren't guests per se, but tothe work that we had done, and
(33:48):
through the good organizationand everything that came
together, we were more guests,and we would have imagined we
were able to be so I thought Iwould be just like running from
one task to the other and havingno no time to just be there and
experience it. But what I heardfrom some people is that some
(34:10):
people used or abused the systemof donating by just not doing it
by giving little if you have arecommendation, this food costs
around maybe let's say just forthe sake of argument $5 And
somebody sees that and kind oflike tests how hard with how
(34:34):
little can I get away, can Igive one can I give 50 cent or
whatever I that so I think thereare ways when people people are
experiencing such a thing forthe first time. It is important
to educate in a sense, but alsoto accept that you know, it is a
(34:54):
recommendation. It's notmandatory. So if you For
whatever reason, maybe you don'thave any money. Maybe you're How
do you say that if you're kindof like holding on to money, and
stingy is, is the word that Iwas looking for if you're
stingy, and you're just like notgiving. So it is whatever the
reason, your mental state isstill contracted, in a sense,
(35:20):
maybe you have money in thatsystem. But you're kind of like,
your self image, lets you act ina way that is just like not in
line with the festival. So itdoesn't matter. You know, and I
think we didn't really judge it.
(35:40):
In the end, it was importantthat we, that we broke, even
which we didn't, we had a greatloss in a sense, and had to go
through pains of refinancing anddoing a lot of work to do that.
But that is what you talkedabout it is failing, at some
point, we had this, thisbeautiful experience that was
(36:02):
carried by love and all thesepositive things. But there were
undersides, there were negativeconsequences of having tried
something like this. And so Iwould say, for people who are in
this, in this context,experiencing something like
that, for the first time, mypersonal rule of thumb is we
(36:24):
need a two thirds 1/3 balance,we need two thirds of the people
who hold that space. So knowthat space, create that space,
were able to see the system andunderstand the system and are
feeding that system with ourpositive energy. And then we
will have a certain amount ofpeople who are carried by that,
(36:45):
who want to be carried by thatand several others who use and
abuse that system. But I think,at least in my experience, if we
have a certain ratio, then thewhole system or the whole event
in our in our understanding wasable to carry that to some
extent, you know, if it dropsbelow a certain balance, then
(37:09):
the other state of mind takesover and then it's What can I
get out of it. And that's whenthe whole kind of that's at the
heart of gentrification, what Ithink at some point when lively
neighborhoods that are veryartsy, very cultural, very, very
much alive, when people areforced because they can't afford
(37:34):
the the rates anymore for theapartments or whatever, or the
stores, then at some point thataliveness is lost. And I would
say, that is something that wejust have to be mindful about,
you know, it's neither good norbad, it's just like, we have to
steer that as leaders asorganizations, we have to know,
at some point, ourorganizational culture will drop
(37:56):
into the other kind of, likeextreme when we don't have an
eye on that.
Right. Right. There's, there's apiece here that I just love
about it feels so caring,actually, in what you're saying,
to keep a pulse on these thesepeople, these communities, the
(38:17):
the newcomers, and there's alevel of care that I hear in
what you're saying around, atleast in the festival setting,
taking someone sort of underyour wing, and as long as that
ratio is there, then you canhave this this inculturation
process in a way of, ofunlearning some of the the
(38:43):
impulses or the the beliefs, theprevious relational patterns
that might have been your normand in the examples you
mentioned, sometimes that canshow up as a taking mentality as
an extractive pattern of howmuch can I get away with how
much can I get for free here andhave that still be okay. And I
(39:06):
think a lot of this has to dowith the the previous patterning
and our relationship to somemoney and colonial ways of
thinking. And so if we can allowfor enough process time and a
pathway where the the existingcommunity is who's already
(39:27):
embodying the the new way or thedifferent way can can help the
the newcomers unlearn all ofthat and begin to experience or
replace it with with a differentway of seeing things or a
different relationship to moneyto move from a transactional
(39:50):
exchange to where you're takingor or extracting into something
that's more reciprocal and lifegenerating and very gentle
Interest actually like to unlockthis, this flow of resources
across people, it's I'm very,I'm very hopeful that we, that
(40:11):
we can get there. And maybethere are always people who, who
will take advantage of thesystem as, as you mentioned, or
fall back into that extractivecolonial way of being. But I
think if we, if we hit a pointwhere the majority, the majority
of a community is embodying anon extractive relationship, and
(40:33):
a non colonial programming as asthe operating system that we
hold, that, that maybe there areways that we could, could point
out those behaviors or inviteyou know, call people in, right
to a different to a differentway and, and sort of lovingly
(40:54):
prevent the taking advantage ofover time, and maybe there are
consequences or boundaries thatget enforced when when people
can't, but that that unlearningpiece in, in what you're
mentioning and keeping an eye onanother person's process feels
so caring to me and not in the,in the other example that you
(41:19):
that you mentioned withgentrification, like not not
mistaking aliveness in acommunity for for something
else, if it if it isn't,producing the value that we as
the colonial thinkers want togenerate from that community, or
(41:39):
the value that we specificallywant to extract from it. To
understand that we're looking ata community through that mindset
of, of this, this town is athing, these people are things
that that will move around orreconstruct, it's it's such a,
it's a messed up way of seeingthe world very mechanistic, in a
(42:03):
way very transactional. But howcan we unlearn that through
playing in these spaces of nonmonetary exchange of festivals,
music, art, it's a very safeplace to learn, I feel and I
think we need more of thesecontainers, to learn and be able
(42:24):
to make mistakes and, and maybewe do take advantage in a
moment. And then we reflect onthat and think, Oh, well that
that didn't actually feel good.
What what made me do that, likehave have that self reflective
quality? So yeah, so I'll I'llstop there and see what comes up
on on your end. But yeah, it'sit's a beautiful picture that
(42:47):
you're painting as a possibilityfor for prototyping these
things.
Yeah, I think, as you mentioned,it is I think, the, the the
possibility to make mistakesthat we won't like I'm looking
(43:11):
at this through the eyes orthrough the lens of an
entrepreneur but also someonewho's an innovator or a Creator
as an artist to to know that wewe might not be able to figure
this out in our first attemptnot only because not only but we
might have the right intentionsbut that doesn't guarantee
(43:33):
success in the sense that wewill figure it out right away.
And so I feel like looking at myexperiences and at the at the
negative sides of our collectiveand in the end the the
shattering process of how it allcame to an end and why is a big
(43:57):
learning witch where I feel likeare we doomed even though we
create these we create thesebeautiful bubbles in a sense or
utopian visions and in the endwe fall short and we make
mistakes and and the peopleoutside so well I could have
(44:18):
told you this before that itdoesn't work you know, but we we
gained something and so I feellike Wayne Dyer I'm sorry if I
come in with so many spiritualteachers today when Wayne Dyer
has said inch by inch wherewe're making progress you know,
so slowly but where it gets likeit is every century, just a
(44:40):
little bit further I don't knowif we if we can see it that way
that we have a limited amount oftime but I feel like we're doing
our best as a as a society. Andeverybody does their best
anyways and some people it justcomes out differently. And so to
just be able to make mistakesand to learn from these mistakes
(45:05):
get up again, you know, this,this, this approach of making it
right, in the first attempt, orat making it right into the, in
general like is my, my, my, myinner revision is that at some
point point I haven't made, I'mdone, I don't have to learn any
more no mistakes, everything islike enlightenment, right? And
(45:29):
then coming back to that to thatquote again. But what happens
after that we still have to chopwood and carry water. So there
is no end that infinity ofevolution that process is
ongoing, like until life on thisplanet exists, there will be
this kind of process of trialand error and just like standing
(45:51):
up again, trying something new,learning from that, and then
building the next or carving thenext stepping stone, whatever we
want to call it. And so I feelthat is probably the most
important thing to just know, wewill fail at some point in some
extent. But that is not theproblem it is are we going to
(46:15):
get up learn from that and kindof like do it in a way where we
share that human element oflove, compassion, and this kind
of like brotherhood sisterhood,whatever you want to call it,
that family here, the humanfamily on this planet, you know,
I'm might be a little bit softwith this. But I feel really we
(46:40):
are we are one one big familyand there is no reason to treat
each other the way we do youknow, and at some point, it
would be nice, it would be niceif we find a way to actually
live together nicely, you know,we can have arguments, nobody
says it's going to be boring.
There's just like peace andeternal bliss. But it is a
(47:00):
different question of how weresolve these arguments and how
we, how we interact with eachother and the planet?
Absolutely, absolutely. I lovethe the language around being
one big family and I too am veryhopeful that we can we can find
(47:22):
loving ways to interact with oneanother. And I feel like as as
entrepreneurs, this relationshipto failure and sort of
rebranding it if you will, asthis is, this is very much a
part of our evolution we were ashumans, we're always going to be
trying and failing and learningreally, I mean, we were as a
(47:44):
species, we are exceptional,really at at learning through
our ability to self reflect andto to make subtle tweaks to the
the nuances of how we show upand how we how we try the next
time. But there's there's a lotof appreciation in in what
(48:04):
you're saying around and let'snot forget the the realism that
exists alongside or underneaththe utopian or idealistic view
of what's possible because atthe end of the day, we we still
have bodies we still have homesto care for and clean and build
(48:24):
and there's there's a simplicityin fact, in the, in the care
that we get to have, even in themundane and bring, bring that
consciousness through and Ithink to to live in a world
that's only in that blissed outjoyful state, you don't actually
(48:45):
appreciate it if you don't alsohave the duality of the, of the
suffering and of of some of thedifficulty that that life might
present. So yeah, it's aninteresting thing that that
polarity creates. And I feellike it's it comes down to how
we choose to relate tosuffering, how we relate to
(49:08):
failure, or how we relate todoing the hard things because
these conversations that we havewith one another in conflict
will will always be hard andbeing vulnerable is hard in a
lot of ways. So there's there'ssomething about our humaneness
in in what you're saying thatI'm I'm appreciating and the the
(49:32):
granularity of let's not let'snot get whisked away in the
idealism here and the theutopianism because there's
there's a very real thinghappening in the physical plane.
So I would love to actually gothere next and into some of
that. That practicality pieceyou mentioned earlier about
(49:56):
still having hierarchy forexample, to be able to make
decision wins. And I imaginethat there was so much work and
physical labor, let alone theemotional labor that would have
gone into the creation of, ofthe festival. So I guess, what
(50:16):
are on that practical level?
What What have you seen workreally well, in terms of how we
relate to, to that work? Whathas maybe worked for, for you as
a person? I'm curious about theabout the granularity and the
nuance that you've seen,I think what what worked well,
(50:39):
in a sense, and I think I haveto put the context of the
hierarchy into a little bit moreperspective that the in, in the
event of, or in the, in the workthat we did, there was meant to
be no hierarchy or hierarchy.
(50:59):
But because people are peopleand decide, I just want to do
this a little bit, I want toinvest maybe a little bit of
time each month. And there arepeople who say I'm all in I want
to I want everything I want thewhole experience, I want to be
part in every kind of likesubgroup and I want to know
what's going on. And I'minterested in this whole
(51:22):
experience, that alone createsthe difference in hierarchical
structures, because some peopleknow more than others, just
because they are involved more.
And so that as as a context forwhat I meant with a hierarchy.
Other than that we had, wedidn't have the strictest form
of organization where it iseverybody has to say yes. And if
(51:46):
somebody says, I'm not on board,then we have to renegotiate, I
don't know what the term forthat in English as. But we
didn't have that we went on a ona veto based system where as
long as nobody was giving aveto, saying no, that I'm not on
board with this, I'm notsupporting this in this way,
(52:10):
this is not a way for me to goforward, then it would be
renegotiated. But as long assomebody said, Well, I'm not I'm
not really a fan of thisdecision, but I'm okay to go
along, then we would just goalong as a as a community. And
as you mentioned, it is it ismuch more complex and effort for
to sit there with 40 people, andto discuss how we go forward and
(52:37):
to resolve all these issues thatpeople have. And I remember that
we in I was living in a communalkind of like apartment with
seven people. And we were allmore or less involved into this
organization. And the sister ofmy friend came and she said,
(52:57):
you're always discussing so muchare constantly kind of like
discussing things and talkingabout stuff. And I'm not used to
that that's like that feels likeso, so much effort in life, you
know, to constantly discuss andsmooth things out through words.
Right. And so I think that isthat is one thing that is a
(53:19):
little bit strenuous, maybe thatthe larger the group gets said,
we have to find ways to be to beto make this sustainable and to
make this efficient. And at somepoint, we can just discuss it
all out. And everybody has thesame right to decide what's
going on and splitting groupsinto smaller sections and
(53:44):
creating some hierarchy that isnecessary in order to save time,
because we can talk two days,like 10 hours every day, in
order to get to the next step,we need to have some pre
decisions made we need todelegate and so I think that it
is that that motivation or theintrinsic aspiration to have no
(54:09):
hierarchy as a as a group thatwe had or to have as little as
possible and to go from thereand then to find find ways to
create a subsystem that workswith our morale extend or moral
views or whatever standards thatwe that we set up, you know, and
(54:31):
so it is but everything likealways, I just maybe a short
excursion I wanted I spent twodays, two years without a cell
phone. And that was a long timeago, but it was creating a lot
of work for me to find solutionsto problems that people with
(54:52):
cell phones didn't have youknow, so if we have certain
standards or certain aspectsassumes that we want to do
certain things differently thanthe status quo, then we have to
be ready to, to do more workbecause it will be.
Yeah, yeah, it's I couldn'tagree more, I think I think
(55:15):
within authentic relating, orthis is not consensus based, but
this we're we're going to churnthrough a lot of data and
discussion, and there's vetopower within that it does take a
lot of, of relational input orrelational energy, it takes a
(55:39):
lot of emotional input,essentially. And, yeah, I think,
I think when when I think aboutthe the benefits of this,
though, I can't help but feellike a lot of that. A lot of
that is probably worth it,especially in the beginning.
(56:00):
Because I think, I thinksometimes to your point, there's
a tendency to want to swingreally hard the other way, if we
are in aversion to thehierarchy, because the hierarchy
like we blame it, we think ithas hurt us, we think it's the
source of a lot of our problems.
Now, we might want to completelymake that obsolete and swing
(56:21):
really hard into the otherdirection of a more flat,
consensus based decision makingset. But I think, I think in
reality, the, the balance or theharmony often lies in the middle
and more of the integration andwhat I love what you I love what
you said about subgroups,basically, where it's, maybe
(56:43):
there's some sort of hybridhere, where you have, you have
more decentralized branches ofof decision making on specific
things. But there's also there'salso this element of what of
what you're saying, in maybe thepeople who hold the most quote,
unquote, power, for decisionmaking within the hierarchies.
(57:07):
It's not based on positionalpower, it's not based on their
skin color, it's it's based on,that's the person with the
experience and the knowledge andwho is embodying these values
best. And so, so let us let usrun the decisions up that
hierarchy to the to the best fitfor all of that, and and to do
(57:30):
that, in these, these subgroupsare localized pockets that can
then self manage based on theexperience and the wisdom that's
in the system and not some ofthese more biased or perverse
ways of structuring hierarchy.
So it's like, I'm just hearingso loud and clear in what you're
(57:53):
saying that the hierarchy itselfis not is not bad, but the
design principles we've maybeused within hierarchy are, can
be harmful. So what's the what'sthe new set of of how we use
that? And again, I feel thatthat maybe the maybe the
(58:15):
solution is somewhere in themiddle? And I think that's kind
of what we're what we'relearning into, as well. So does
I guess, does that match theexperience that that you've had?
I think from from what I heardyou saying that the the
hierarchy itself is probablymore can more be seen for people
(58:35):
who hear this discussion as aninformal kind of hierarchy or an
informer kind of leadership, itis not actually a position where
people would be like perceivedin that in that position, or
where they would get more moredecision making power, they
would just have to step up withtheir with their knowledge and
(58:58):
share that and say, think aboutthis, because we are doing this,
this and that and then to kindof like delegate it back to the
group to be really responsiblein this leadership position. To
still know that I might be theonly person who has this general
overview but I'm, this doesn'tmake me the person who makes the
(59:21):
decision. This makes me the, thecounterpart or the person who
just relays the information andwhat other people need to know
in order to to make a decisionthat is more appropriate to be
made in this sentence. I justwanted to maybe clarify that a
little bit. And the question Ithink about about that model is
(59:50):
just I think it is groupintelligence to be honest when
you were speaking and when whenI was listening to to to your to
your encapsulation of what youheard, I feel like it is a it is
probably a trust and aconfidence in the collective
mind, in the group process to beable to trust well, maybe this
(01:00:14):
is not my decision, per se, Iwould be going a different
route. But because of the way wecame to the conclusion, I trust
in the process that this will bethe right decision. And at the
same time, I even if I wantedto, I could not recreate the
festival and I was among thosepeople who were really, really
(01:00:38):
deep deep into the organization.
Realizing that we, it was onlypossible for and for us to
create such an outstandingexperience for all people
involved because of everyone whowas part of it. And every, every
kind of like, individual thatcreated that, that collective
(01:00:58):
consciousness or that creative,creative mindset together. And I
think that is an important thingto trust in that we don't have
to all be experts, it is it isenough, if we come together, if
our intentions are aligned inthe sense that we all know what
we know. And we all know thedestination where we want to go,
(01:01:20):
then with that intention set, itis possible to create the most
magnificent, magnificent things,because we're coming together as
a as a group. And the synergy isthere. You know, I think that is
one of the things that is reallyimportant to understand that
when I would bring something upin the beginning of my of my
(01:01:42):
work in this collective 2013, Iwould say something wrong and
quotation. And I would feel badbecause I, I earned a position
and some people were maybearguing and the I want it to be
the person who says somethingsmart or something that is is
bringing us to that solutionafter problem. I don't want to
(01:02:06):
be the person who everybody saysno, we're not doing that. But I
realized over the years thatthese oppose the opposition is,
is oftentimes a vital part ofthat solution, finding that
where the group realizes No,this is actually quite the
opposite of what we want, byrealizing that being able to
formulate what we want, and thento find a better solution. So at
(01:02:30):
some point I eased into, well,maybe this is something that the
group doesn't want to hear. Butit is something that needs to be
said and to trust in thatprocess. It might not bring us
to the solution directly, but itmight be able to bring us around
to the solution, you know,right? The the trust, the trust,
(01:02:50):
even in the opposition is so isso nurturing in what you're
saying. So collectiveintelligence based on trust. We
don't all have to be theexperts, as you said that I felt
my whole body relaxed and likeoh my gosh, yes. Through through
positional power, withinhierarchies. When if we believe
(01:03:13):
in the illusion that as aleader, we're supposed to know
all the answers, that is so muchpressure to put on ourselves.
And it simply isn't isn't true.
We, you know, no single one ofus is going to be the expert of
all things or have all theanswers. So this, this
distributed leadership modelthat you're alluding to, in the
(01:03:36):
distributed wisdom within it andsort of letting, letting that
organically show up turning tothe person that that has that
wisdom, and even an even if youspeak to offer a solution that
can be really, really powerfulas as a prototype, essentially,
where now people have somethingto engage around or to react
(01:03:59):
with. And I think if we asleaders can, can not have the
attachment to the reaction thatthat the collective intelligence
then has, and not make ourselvesbad. If you're wrong, if the the
response from the collectiveintelligence is a no, can we let
(01:04:20):
can we be okay with a no and notmake a story about ourselves for
being wrong? So it's Yeah, Ithink I think this is maybe a
really beautiful place to beginto wrap up our conversation of,
of the potential of ofcollective intelligence within
(01:04:41):
within groups and that so muchof that can be built on trust
and I I've heard I've heard afew people say this now so I'm
glad that it's becoming a bit ofa rallying a rallying tagline in
a way of of the The currency ofthe future is trust. Rather than
(01:05:05):
money, the currency of thefuture is trust and an eye. I
relax into that as well.
Especially as we fight for aworld that is that is more
transparent and where we seethrough a lot of the the opacity
or the the masks that thatpeople will wear to try and
control, extract manipulatewhatever, whatever it might be.
(01:05:29):
So I'm curious Martin, couldyou? Could you perhaps leave us
with any wisdom on yourexperience of trust in in these
communities?
Trust in the communities ortrust per se, that is a? I don't
know, it's probably at this atthis point where I'm at right
(01:05:49):
now. It's probably both, youknow, so I feel going back to
what we spoke about the findingthe glass half full, or seeing
the glass half full, that it isalways our opportunity to open
our hearts and stay open in ourhearts. And Michael singer said
(01:06:14):
that if you don't, I think Ihave to paraphrase because it's
been a long time since I readhis book. But you stay open by
not closing your heart, I thinkso by by staying open. Using
whatever, like whatever happensto us and whenever we're
disappointed when I'm sad,angry, all the all the negative
(01:06:37):
and quotation, emotions, lookingusing self reflection and seeing
what where am I where am Iholding on as in the in the I
want to be the leader who, whomakes remarks that are smart,
and bringing solutions, lettinggo of that principle and seeing
well there is value in, in whatI said even though I thought
(01:07:01):
it's, it's it's bad, you know,and so I feel like when we're
able to stay open and to likeinspect our emotional landscape,
especially when it's negative,but also when it's positive and
to stop, kind of like holding onto that we build trust mostly in
ourselves, that whatever comesmy way, I will be able to, to
(01:07:25):
see the beauty in that and toforgive myself and others for
whatever experiences that Imake. And to trust in that no
matter what happens. We willfind a way we will be we will be
like we were it was soadaptable. You know, we're it's
such a adaptable species. If weif we're able to make the next
(01:07:50):
step in the evolution and kindof like, put our ego in its
right place not to kind of likejust solidified or bring it into
like non existence, but to tojust use our mind rather than
our mind using us. And I thinkwe're really set set for the
(01:08:13):
future, you know, so I don'tknow I love the quote of the
mind is a beautiful servant, buta cruel master, you know, so in
a sense, to just really trusttrust in the process. You know,
that's probably that's probablyit.
(01:08:33):
Amazing. Yeah. I love I lovethat quote, as well. Yeah.
Martin, thank you so much. Andthank you for leaving us with
this. This sentiment aroundtrust within as well and our
ability to, to nurture that tobe self responsible enough to,
to form that relationship withinourselves that we can that we
(01:08:54):
can trust ourselves to doanything to adapt and to, to
pick ourselves up even when whenthings get hard. So thank you
for for bringing us to this thislovely, final note in our
conversation and it has beensuch a joy to traverse these
topics with you. Thank you somuch for your wisdom and your
(01:09:15):
presence today. Thank you
Hey leaders Welcome to the showI am with a wonderful human
(00:03):
being named Martin Tice. Today,Martin is a spiritual coach and
teacher who focuses on mentalhealth and well being through
the art of shamanic journeying.
And he splits his time betweenGermany, Norway and Hawaii. So
naturally, as a fellow digital,global Nomad, I was very curious
to talk to Martin. So Martin andI hopped on to get to know one
(00:26):
another before recording thisepisode. And I got to learn
about the wealth of knowledgethat this man has around
building communities, andspecifically piloting new ways
of governance, value exchange,and relationship building inside
of these communities. And fromwhere I sit looking out in the
(00:47):
vast landscape of leadership, Ifind that building this skill
set of piloting, iterating, andeven failing is so important for
the world that we are nowgetting to build the collective
future that we are now steppinginto. Together, we all get to
participate in this. Martinbrings some really interesting
(01:10):
nuggets around money listeconomies, embodying our values
as leaders to really modelversions of community and
economy that we perhaps havenever seen before. If we've
never seen it, how can we knowhow to really participate with
it, often we bring the verythings from the old system that
(01:31):
we are trying to move away from.
So he's seen a lot. And he'sgoing to walk us through today,
how he has seen differentgovernance and decision making
structures work inside of selforganizing systems, which I
believe really is the way of thefuture on this path to moving
(01:56):
from a transactional way ofrelating into really reciprocal
generous relating across all ofour relations. Thanks for being
here. And let's get into theepisode, Martin and I hopped on
a call just to get to know oneanother. And I was blown away by
the wisdom that he has aroundcommunity building and
(02:18):
prototyping different governanceand decision making structures
within community. He also has alot of experience when it comes
to curating money lists,economies or different forms of
value exchange within communitythat we might not be used to. So
as we collectively move fromtransactional forms of relating
into something more generous andreciprocal, what can we learn
(02:43):
from what Martin has seen inthese communities where they're
not using money, most of us havenever experienced that before
and have no idea how to bringourselves and our mindsets to
that sort of environment. SoMartin, in this episode also
shares his perspective on how weas leaders can really model the
(03:07):
very values that we're invitingpeople to move into in some of
these newer structures that weare helping to build. Martin
also dropped some wisdom aroundself organizing systems and
adaptive leadership ordistributed leadership. And both
of these are different, again,than what we typically see
(03:29):
inside of a hierarchicalorganization, for example, where
we are turning to one person ora very small subset of people,
for the answers and for ourdecision making. This is a very
intellectually stimulatingepisode. And I hope you enjoy
traversing these topics as muchas Martin and I did. Thanks
again for being here. And let'sget into the episode. Martin I
(03:50):
am so looking forward to ourconversation today. Thank you
for being here and beingpresent.
Thank you for the invitation.
The pleasure is mine as well.
Thank you.
I've been so looking forward tothis since we first spoke and,
and to offer a little context toour listeners, Martin and I met
through pod match, which isactually almost like a dating
(04:13):
service or a dating app forpodcast hosts and guests. And
I've been really impressed withthe quality of guests that I've
been finding and Martin is noexception. We hopped on a few
weeks ago to drop into what wemight speak about today and
there's a depth there's there'ssuch a depth in this being that
(04:35):
sits before me and the wisdomthat he brings. So Martin I want
to I want to pick up where weleft off last time because I
found this to be so profound andand such a such a beautiful
doorway into the conversation. Ihope we have today. And last
(04:57):
time we had shared that in thehall. Over an executive
education program that I'm apart of, we do this incredible
activity called our a deepclimate story. And essentially,
we take the executives throughthis 100 year timeline, where
(05:17):
each executive plots on thetimeline the year where they
think they themselves will die.
And if they have children, theythen also put a point on the
timeline of when they thinktheir children will live to. And
from there, we start to weavethis context of, of climate
science, essentially, andlooking at what some of the
(05:41):
predictions are from, fromvarious futurists, and what we
know about various systemscollapse that we might see in
the years to come. And as we'reweaving this, some of the
executives are starting to tearup starting to visibly cry, I
mean, it's so emotional to, tonot only face our mortality, but
(06:04):
also the mortality of of ourfuture generations and the
reality that they might bestepping into. And by the end of
this activity, we paint thestory that not all hope is lost,
the the humans who who make it,the humans who design our new
world, and the systems, orcommunity structures that that
(06:29):
are resilient enough in thefuture, these are the groups
that started to iterate andprototype different ways of
being much earlier on in thetimeline, in in the times that
we find ourselves in today. AndI've been so excited to talk
with you about this. Because ifwe, if we accept this for a
(06:50):
moment that we are in a momentof have a deep need to prototype
these systems, and begin testingiterating getting really
uncomfortable, moving throughour fears, letting go of ego
being comfortable with failing,so that we are not wasting any
(07:11):
more time in this prototyping. Imean, this is there's so much at
stake when when you look at itthrough this lens, and you're
someone who, who has someexperience looking at these
different formats for communitygovernance. And so I just want
to invite you into thisconversation through through
(07:34):
that deeper context and ask,what what have you? What have
you experienced in this in thisrealm of of prototyping? And can
you can you help paint a pictureof, of what you see possible in
in this arena? I know, that's abig question.
(07:56):
Yeah. So I want to I want todisclose or break it is closer,
this is just my personal pointof view, you know, I everything
that comes out of my mouth istainted. So. But absolutely, I
think the most important thingwe have to admit right now is
that there is this need forprogress. And there is this need
(08:18):
for everything that you justmentioned. But there are also
people who will be holding onsteadfast steadfastly to the old
to the material kind of securityand to the old ways in terms of
system models, organizations,everything. So always to be
aware that it's not we are alloff into this new world, and
(08:43):
we're diving into somethingunknown, but that there will be
resistance from the systems thatwe are currently facing, you
know, so just to to frame thisin the right way. And from from
our experience as a collective,but just maybe as a reference
for you. I was part of acollective in Germany that was
(09:06):
investing their energy intocreating spaces, cultures,
cultural spaces, and musicspaces for all people without
any limitations, accessbarriers, financial barriers, so
we were trying to give everybodygood time basically and to
express ourselves and move movethe system that we were in which
(09:27):
was difficult. In the in thesense of that the city cologne
was not inviting collectives tocreate these kinds of spaces,
but we were we were vigilantesor kind of Gorilla, Gorilla
organizations who did thesethings and now and so my, my
(09:47):
personal point of view on thisis that there is a shift going
on from pure hedonism from kindof like partying and self
expression and to, to being moreaware of the problems that we
have, and that we can connectthese things with each other, we
(10:10):
can dance, we can have a goodtime. But it's also important
that we have a space for maybeworkshops or for lectures where
people thought leaders come up,and they just share what they
what they learned. And so Ithink, at least what I
experienced in different kindsof places is that there is an
(10:34):
awareness of a need to goforward and to find new
solutions. But then it's alsodifficult, like it is really
difficult in the sense of it isgrassroots movements who don't
make a living out of that, andthey are opposing, in a sense. I
(10:55):
know of like the thrivingindustry where money is a big
player, you know, and so it canfeel a little disempowering To
be honest, like, where we arethese, we are just a small group
of people, how should we changethe status quo, you know, and
(11:16):
sometimes forgetting that, bysharing all that, and by
creating more more organizationsin the image of that, that it is
about, like the masses,probably, but from all that you
said, I would say that the deepdive into timeline is helping to
(11:36):
really see we don't have anytime. But also on the other
hand, to not or to avoid fallinginto this anxiety trap, you
know, that everything is lost,we, we don't have to even try
because everything's gone downthe drain anyways, you know, and
seeing as these exit executivesthat you described, seeing how
(12:00):
the world is going to change howtheir children are going to
experience certain things thatthey experienced probably when
they were young, probably incontext to nature. And the
beauty of nature, I think thatis what what would come to my
mind that if I imagine my kids,if I had kids and 3040 years
(12:22):
would be visiting some of myfavorite places in the world,
and that they might not evenexist anymore, let alone the
animals and mass extinction thatwe're currently like, in the
middle of that would that woulddefinitely what that resonates
with me from that point of view.
So I think it is important tojust be aware that we don't have
(12:44):
like, maybe, maybe I can't saylike this. There's a famous
famous and beautiful quote fromfrom from Buddha. It's supposed
to be from the Buddha and it'sBefore enlightenment, we chop
wood and carry water. And afterenlightenment, we chop wood and
(13:05):
carry water. So we have to workanyways, right? We as human
beings have to sustainourselves, we have to do certain
things we have the effort thatis going to be life itself. So
why not focuses on focus it onsomething that is moving
forward, something where we maybe making some mistakes, but
also where we learn somethingwhere we try stuff out. And
(13:25):
rather than kind of like beingin this comfortable position,
where it's all on autopilot, andwe're just cruising through, I
don't know our lives so that inthe end, we have 1010 years if
we're lucky, sometimes where weget money and don't have to work
right and so why not use thatelement of we have to we have to
(13:46):
sustain ourselves anyways, whynot make it something beautiful
and expression of creativity andof life and of beauty,
compassion, love? Why not dothat instead of just defaulting
into this old mode of how weused to do things?
Yeah, beautifully said I love. Ilove the imagery of the of the
(14:11):
Buddha quote that you that youbrought in there. And I think
there are a few threads that Iwant to pull on here that feel
really significant. And one isthe appreciation for you naming
that. This can all be true. Ouryou know, our context can be
sort of spiraling into a lot ofcomplexity or chaos or systems
(14:36):
collapse and we don't need to beall Bloomsday about that in
fact, to to be purely in thenegative or to be in the fear we
lose access to that executivefunction in our brain we lose
access to the the hope and thethe love within that that keeps
(14:56):
us going even through those hardtimes. So having In this, this
positive outlook of, yes, let mekeep chopping the wood and
collecting the water. And let melet me maybe do this in a way
where I have a bit of a longerterm view on how the way that I
chop wood or where I collect thewater might impact future
(15:20):
generations. And I also want totouch on what you mentioned
about about money as well, theimage that came to mind as you,
as you shared about how, as weseek to change as we seek to
evolve these systems in the bestways that we can, that there
(15:43):
will be a lot of resistance tothat. And what comes to mind is
almost this biological image,right of when the body has a
virus er has these, theseforeign invaders that come into
it, the whole system, as a formof self preservation, and
protection and longevity, goesinto this survival mode. And
(16:07):
it's, it sees that that youknow, those invaders as as a
direct threat, and it's going todo what it needs to do to
survive. And so I often see thatbiological metaphor in, in how
in how we approach change andhow, how I empathize actually,
(16:28):
with the the monetary systemsthat we have, and the
hierarchical systems that thathave thrived on collecting and
maybe even hoarding power, forexample, or have really
benefited from creating thesewealth gaps. It's it's become
these have become strategies forthe continued lunge, longevity
(16:52):
of that type of system. So it'slike, yes, of course, it's going
to go down swinging, of course,it's going to go down fighting,
and how do we love it all theway through? How do we hospice,
that system, all the way throughto its death day, and let that
actually be a beautiful thing.
Because then the energy that wasembedded in that system and the
resources that had been suckedup by that system, are
(17:17):
redistributed elsewhere, becausethe the other thing I really
resonate with in what you said,is, when you step outside of the
system, it does feeldisempowering, that there is
often not money, and we do havethese basic needs to support
ourselves. So so how do we, howdo we lovingly divest from the
(17:40):
systems that have maybe grown solarge, that they are harming us
and our planet? And at the sametime, be be experimenting, not
with a doomsday urgency need,because that's a red flag to
that takes us out of our ownalignment. But be doing this out
of love for the planet love forfuture generations? Whatever our
(18:04):
reason might be? So yeah,there's there's so much there's
so much in, in what you'resaying. And I yeah, I'm curious.
I'm curious, as I say, all thatwhat shows up for you in what
you've in what you've seen orwhat you hope for in in the
future.
(18:26):
Yeah, I think I think it is, islike when you started speaking,
I thought about a lecture from acartrawler. And where he just
uses the meta or the, thathigher higher plane that you
described, about consciousnessitself, that even if the goal
(18:49):
the whole planet would fear,what would experience a mass
extinction and 90% of life wouldbe wiped out consciousness
itself would stay the all theexperience everything, all that
that state of consciousnesswould, would be reborn and would
(19:11):
be reborn even more with, withmore complexity with more
awareness with more kind oflike, with a higher state of
consciousness in itself, andjust that as a context is for
me, kind of like that. In thatthat emotional pacifier or maybe
even spiritual pacifier that Ihave to suck on sometimes when I
(19:34):
get too gloomy, because I feellike Oh, my God, everything is
going down the drain and nothingis happening and everybody is
just like, totally absorbed withtheir own individual lives. And
so when when I'm on thatspiraling, or on that spiral
down, then I just remember Okay,well, consciousness itself is
(19:55):
still here, won't go away. Andwe do Like, it's all going to be
fine. And in a sense, you know,that was one thing that I, that
I thought of when you werespeaking. And that it is our
responsibility to be honest tolearn as human beings to be able
(20:17):
to see the beauty in thedestruction to be able to kind
of like see the glass half full,you know, we are trained in this
in a like, in a in a, in a greatway. At least in all those
places where I went to so far Ihave been mostly in the in the
(20:39):
in the West, as you said, or theglobal north. So everywhere I
went, I saw that there is agreat disposition to negativity
or to being socialized in a waywhere it is focusing on the bad
things. And I think that is ourgreatest responsibility as human
beings to be able to elevate,Sue that pattern into something
(21:00):
where it's, it's getting moreconstructive, because as you
mentioned, the the worst thingwe can do is just write it off,
I think it's all it's all past,any, any anything we can do
anyways and to let go, and thenall the creativity, all the
systems, everything that wecould come up with, if we stay
(21:21):
productive, if we stay positive,they we won't have access to
that. So I think that is themost important thing to find
each person individually, butalso in these in these
organizations in these systemsin these communities, to find a
way to keep that elevated state,in a way and to regain it kind
(21:44):
of like when we do sports, anathlete who is really good in
good shape, their pulse is goingdown really fast when they had a
like a really extremelyextensive or intensive peak with
their heart rate, right. And wemeasure how well someone is
trained how fast that pulse goesdown into the normal average
(22:07):
kind of zone. And so to be ableemotionally and spiritually in
with our whole being, to kind oflike find that balance. Again,
when there is a negative impact.
When I had an argument or astressful situation where
something bad happened, how longdoes it take for me to regain my
composure? I think that is kindof that what I think about what
we have to do, because when weget to do that, then we are able
(22:31):
to help others to just be therewith that state, we don't have
to do anything to just like bein that awareness. And to help
them therefore to regain theircomposure and to find that
balance. And I thinkorganizations and communities
were able to facilitate thatprocess and to help each other
out are much more resilient thanothers where everybody fights
(22:55):
for themselves and tries to getahead and on and on. You know.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I thinkthat that is so it's so
important that we investigatewhat maybe these new reflexes
are or these these responseswithin us this because it almost
(23:16):
feels like a skill set to beable to navigate with self
regulation in our systems tostay to stay online to stay
connected to be able to nurtureourselves through really
difficult things or show up forone another that it feels so
important that we build thatmuscle and that we we develop
(23:37):
those those reflexes, especiallyif those triggering or difficult
events become more prevalent ina way. And the the other thing
that you mentioned around sortof incentives, right, it's, I
think, what I'm what I'm seeingin, in what you just shared
(23:59):
there is our incentive structurealso changing at the same time
that these reflexes grow. We'velived inside of a system for
very long where theindividualism or the the
individual gain rather thancommunity focus has has been the
way at least in the Global Northand you see these, these very
(24:23):
deep patterns of extraction,consumerism, overindulgence, all
of these behaviors have havealmost become the cornerstone or
the value set that sit at ourbasic incentives. And you
mentioned music earlier and Ican't help but think of Burning
(24:44):
Man as an example where there'sa very different set of values
are a very different set of, ofsimple rules that that community
convenes around and there'sthere's this beautiful ebb and
flow Oh, I have, okay, withinwithin these agreements within
these very basic and simplerules, we get to create, we get
(25:08):
to interact with our, with ourchanging environment and the art
or the the offerings that thatothers might be gifting in, in
that particular economy, ormicro economy. So I want to, I
want to ask more about in yourexperience in the collective.
(25:32):
Talk to us about the theincentives, or the value set
that existed at the core ofthat. And what were some of
those, those skill sets orreflexes that were then unlocked
because of, say, a differentvalue set than we're used to
(25:52):
now?
So when you when you werespeaking, and I think it's
interesting that you asked thatspecific question is that, all
in all, when was the lastfestival that we did as a
collective was 2017. And whenthe the final building and
(26:17):
creation phase of the festivalstarted, we were probably four
weeks ahead of the festival, wewere there. And then two weeks
after, and the five days of thefestival, and during that time,
like you said, it is amicrocosm, and it's it's so
interesting. I mean, this is theprobably the most beautiful
(26:37):
experience I personally had inmy life. And during this
experience, we didn't need anymoney. We didn't, I didn't have
my wallet for eight weeks. And Ididn't need to pay for anything,
except for when we left thatmicrocosm and went to some place
where we needed to buy tools orresources or anything like that.
(27:00):
But we were in this microcosmwhere everybody was just
enjoying what they did, andbuilding out of that come out of
that love out of that mode,right. And so, because of this,
the more people came to thisfestival side, they entered into
this loving Space of Creation ofcreativity and empowerment,
(27:25):
because we had principles whereit's about everybody is able to
do everything. We're not wedidn't we had hierarchies, we
tried them try to have them askind of like, equally or equally
distributed as possible. Butinformation power or whatever
you want to call it, is they areso we were aware that it's it's
(27:48):
not possible to have nohierarchy or to have like a
completely fill out here, orCuba to at least give all the
people the chance to participateand do whenever they wanted to
do something. So you're in thiscompletely self organized space
where more and more people comein, because the festival is
coming closer and closer. And atsome point festival guests are
(28:11):
coming. But because ourprinciples were that it was more
of a we create this togetherthen service industry. So even
though people purchased tickets,they knew that there was going
to be work to be done and thatthey participated and that they
helped out and that food anddrinks were given for donation
(28:34):
on a Donations base. So thewhole system was so foreign to a
large group of people who hadnever experienced anything like
that. Yet, at the same time,being enough people who held
that space, that the newcomerswho had never experienced that
were kind of like, gently taughtor gently kind of like
(28:57):
introduced into such a foreignspace in a sense, you know, and
so I still remember my brotherwho always heard of this
collective but had never beenpart of any parties in Cologne
because he was living somewhereelse. And when he after the
(29:18):
first evening came to me Hismind was blown. He said, Dude, I
had no idea that what's going onhere? I've never seen anything
like this. And that's that'swhat I feel is the beauty of
these concepts that it isdifficult for for people who are
have never experienced anythinglike that to imagine it because
(29:40):
it's, I would say impossible.
But once they experience it,they see they're just like
mesmerized and they feel likethis is this is unknown. I've I
never knew this was possible.
You know, and this is just whatI wanted to share. What maybe I
went a little bit off that backfrom your question, but the
(30:02):
principles are probably found inequal rights, you know, love,
love what you do. Everybody isinvited to participate in
create, make mistakes. And,yeah, so yeah,
(30:26):
that's amazing. It's, I thinksometimes when, when we don't
have a mental construct, orwe've never seen that example,
it can be really hard to fathomor to imagine into what these
different spheres might mightbe. But especially in a festival
(30:48):
scene, or this microcosm ofdifferent values that you're
describing. There's somethinghappening on an embodied level,
it sounds like as well, whereit's almost like being children
again, right, where we get to,we get to witness another person
showing up differently, showingup interacting with others in a
(31:10):
different way, moving from adifferent set of, of incentives.
And getting to emulate that as aform of, of learning. So what I
love about this microcosm of thecollective you're describing and
the the events or experiencesthat that you put on is that
it's almost like a form of play,to to get to come back to our
(31:36):
infancy in this completely newconstruct, as newcomers, to get
to experience a different way ofbeing in community a different
way a value exchange, adifferent way of offering our
gifts. And I almost think youcan, you can explain with words
or through mental constructstill the cows come home to
(31:57):
someone who's never experiencedthis. But there's nothing like
getting inside of thatexperience and having your body
pick up on all of those millionsof signals and observations and
have that aha moment of, oh mygosh, this is it's blowing my
mind. But on a heart level, on aon an embody level I'm getting,
(32:20):
how different this is. And nowyou have access to those other
those other constructs. So Iactually love this form of
piloting in this way, like thismicrocosm is such a test of, of
a non monetary system, forexample. And I'm curious within
(32:41):
that setting, what whatbehaviors right, because most of
us, unless unless we've been ina festival setting like this,
we've never experienced lifeoutside of a monetary system,
most of us, so when you're inthat setting, what are some of
(33:02):
the behaviors that you noticed?
And what did you experience inyourself what was coming online
for you as a human being insideof this very different
construct?
So I would say I have or thegroup that did the majority of
(33:26):
the planning and the whole, thewhole structure, I would say we
had a special function, or aspecial kind of like, maybe
real, just, it is difficult toexplain, because we were outside
a little bit of that festival.
We weren't guests per se, but tothe work that we had done, and
(33:48):
through the good organizationand everything that came
together, we were more guests,and we would have imagined we
were able to be so I thought Iwould be just like running from
one task to the other and havingno no time to just be there and
experience it. But what I heardfrom some people is that some
(34:10):
people used or abused the systemof donating by just not doing it
by giving little if you have arecommendation, this food costs
around maybe let's say just forthe sake of argument $5 And
somebody sees that and kind oflike tests how hard with how
(34:34):
little can I get away, can Igive one can I give 50 cent or
whatever I that so I think thereare ways when people people are
experiencing such a thing forthe first time. It is important
to educate in a sense, but alsoto accept that you know, it is a
(34:54):
recommendation. It's notmandatory. So if you For
whatever reason, maybe you don'thave any money. Maybe you're How
do you say that if you're kindof like holding on to money, and
stingy is, is the word that Iwas looking for if you're
stingy, and you're just like notgiving. So it is whatever the
reason, your mental state isstill contracted, in a sense,
(35:20):
maybe you have money in thatsystem. But you're kind of like,
your self image, lets you act ina way that is just like not in
line with the festival. So itdoesn't matter. You know, and I
think we didn't really judge it.
(35:40):
In the end, it was importantthat we, that we broke, even
which we didn't, we had a greatloss in a sense, and had to go
through pains of refinancing anddoing a lot of work to do that.
But that is what you talkedabout it is failing, at some
point, we had this, thisbeautiful experience that was
(36:02):
carried by love and all thesepositive things. But there were
undersides, there were negativeconsequences of having tried
something like this. And so Iwould say, for people who are in
this, in this context,experiencing something like
that, for the first time, mypersonal rule of thumb is we
(36:24):
need a two thirds 1/3 balance,we need two thirds of the people
who hold that space. So knowthat space, create that space,
were able to see the system andunderstand the system and are
feeding that system with ourpositive energy. And then we
will have a certain amount ofpeople who are carried by that,
(36:45):
who want to be carried by thatand several others who use and
abuse that system. But I think,at least in my experience, if we
have a certain ratio, then thewhole system or the whole event
in our in our understanding wasable to carry that to some
extent, you know, if it dropsbelow a certain balance, then
(37:09):
the other state of mind takesover and then it's What can I
get out of it. And that's whenthe whole kind of that's at the
heart of gentrification, what Ithink at some point when lively
neighborhoods that are veryartsy, very cultural, very, very
much alive, when people areforced because they can't afford
(37:34):
the the rates anymore for theapartments or whatever, or the
stores, then at some point thataliveness is lost. And I would
say, that is something that wejust have to be mindful about,
you know, it's neither good norbad, it's just like, we have to
steer that as leaders asorganizations, we have to know,
at some point, ourorganizational culture will drop
(37:56):
into the other kind of, likeextreme when we don't have an
eye on that.
Right. Right. There's, there's apiece here that I just love
about it feels so caring,actually, in what you're saying,
to keep a pulse on these thesepeople, these communities, the
(38:17):
the newcomers, and there's alevel of care that I hear in
what you're saying around, atleast in the festival setting,
taking someone sort of underyour wing, and as long as that
ratio is there, then you canhave this this inculturation
process in a way of, ofunlearning some of the the
(38:43):
impulses or the the beliefs, theprevious relational patterns
that might have been your normand in the examples you
mentioned, sometimes that canshow up as a taking mentality as
an extractive pattern of howmuch can I get away with how
much can I get for free here andhave that still be okay. And I
(39:06):
think a lot of this has to dowith the the previous patterning
and our relationship to somemoney and colonial ways of
thinking. And so if we can allowfor enough process time and a
pathway where the the existingcommunity is who's already
(39:27):
embodying the the new way or thedifferent way can can help the
the newcomers unlearn all ofthat and begin to experience or
replace it with with a differentway of seeing things or a
different relationship to moneyto move from a transactional
(39:50):
exchange to where you're takingor or extracting into something
that's more reciprocal and lifegenerating and very gentle
Interest actually like to unlockthis, this flow of resources
across people, it's I'm very,I'm very hopeful that we, that
(40:11):
we can get there. And maybethere are always people who, who
will take advantage of thesystem as, as you mentioned, or
fall back into that extractivecolonial way of being. But I
think if we, if we hit a pointwhere the majority, the majority
of a community is embodying anon extractive relationship, and
(40:33):
a non colonial programming as asthe operating system that we
hold, that, that maybe there areways that we could, could point
out those behaviors or inviteyou know, call people in, right
to a different to a differentway and, and sort of lovingly
(40:54):
prevent the taking advantage ofover time, and maybe there are
consequences or boundaries thatget enforced when when people
can't, but that that unlearningpiece in, in what you're
mentioning and keeping an eye onanother person's process feels
so caring to me and not in the,in the other example that you
(41:19):
that you mentioned withgentrification, like not not
mistaking aliveness in acommunity for for something
else, if it if it isn't,producing the value that we as
the colonial thinkers want togenerate from that community, or
(41:39):
the value that we specificallywant to extract from it. To
understand that we're looking ata community through that mindset
of, of this, this town is athing, these people are things
that that will move around orreconstruct, it's it's such a,
it's a messed up way of seeingthe world very mechanistic, in a
(42:03):
way very transactional. But howcan we unlearn that through
playing in these spaces of nonmonetary exchange of festivals,
music, art, it's a very safeplace to learn, I feel and I
think we need more of thesecontainers, to learn and be able
(42:24):
to make mistakes and, and maybewe do take advantage in a
moment. And then we reflect onthat and think, Oh, well that
that didn't actually feel good.
What what made me do that, likehave have that self reflective
quality? So yeah, so I'll I'llstop there and see what comes up
on on your end. But yeah, it'sit's a beautiful picture that
(42:47):
you're painting as a possibilityfor for prototyping these
things.
Yeah, I think, as you mentioned,it is I think, the, the the
possibility to make mistakesthat we won't like I'm looking
(43:11):
at this through the eyes orthrough the lens of an
entrepreneur but also someonewho's an innovator or a Creator
as an artist to to know that wewe might not be able to figure
this out in our first attemptnot only because not only but we
might have the right intentionsbut that doesn't guarantee
(43:33):
success in the sense that wewill figure it out right away.
And so I feel like looking at myexperiences and at the at the
negative sides of our collectiveand in the end the the
shattering process of how it allcame to an end and why is a big
(43:57):
learning witch where I feel likeare we doomed even though we
create these we create thesebeautiful bubbles in a sense or
utopian visions and in the endwe fall short and we make
mistakes and and the peopleoutside so well I could have
(44:18):
told you this before that itdoesn't work you know, but we we
gained something and so I feellike Wayne Dyer I'm sorry if I
come in with so many spiritualteachers today when Wayne Dyer
has said inch by inch wherewe're making progress you know,
so slowly but where it gets likeit is every century, just a
(44:40):
little bit further I don't knowif we if we can see it that way
that we have a limited amount oftime but I feel like we're doing
our best as a as a society. Andeverybody does their best
anyways and some people it justcomes out differently. And so to
just be able to make mistakesand to learn from these mistakes
(45:05):
get up again, you know, this,this, this approach of making it
right, in the first attempt, orat making it right into the, in
general like is my, my, my, myinner revision is that at some
point point I haven't made, I'mdone, I don't have to learn any
more no mistakes, everything islike enlightenment, right? And
(45:29):
then coming back to that to thatquote again. But what happens
after that we still have to chopwood and carry water. So there
is no end that infinity ofevolution that process is
ongoing, like until life on thisplanet exists, there will be
this kind of process of trialand error and just like standing
(45:51):
up again, trying something new,learning from that, and then
building the next or carving thenext stepping stone, whatever we
want to call it. And so I feelthat is probably the most
important thing to just know, wewill fail at some point in some
extent. But that is not theproblem it is are we going to
(46:15):
get up learn from that and kindof like do it in a way where we
share that human element oflove, compassion, and this kind
of like brotherhood sisterhood,whatever you want to call it,
that family here, the humanfamily on this planet, you know,
I'm might be a little bit softwith this. But I feel really we
(46:40):
are we are one one big familyand there is no reason to treat
each other the way we do youknow, and at some point, it
would be nice, it would be niceif we find a way to actually
live together nicely, you know,we can have arguments, nobody
says it's going to be boring.
There's just like peace andeternal bliss. But it is a
(47:00):
different question of how weresolve these arguments and how
we, how we interact with eachother and the planet?
Absolutely, absolutely. I lovethe the language around being
one big family and I too am veryhopeful that we can we can find
(47:22):
loving ways to interact with oneanother. And I feel like as as
entrepreneurs, this relationshipto failure and sort of
rebranding it if you will, asthis is, this is very much a
part of our evolution we were ashumans, we're always going to be
trying and failing and learningreally, I mean, we were as a
(47:44):
species, we are exceptional,really at at learning through
our ability to self reflect andto to make subtle tweaks to the
the nuances of how we show upand how we how we try the next
time. But there's there's a lotof appreciation in in what
(48:04):
you're saying around and let'snot forget the the realism that
exists alongside or underneaththe utopian or idealistic view
of what's possible because atthe end of the day, we we still
have bodies we still have homesto care for and clean and build
(48:24):
and there's there's a simplicityin fact, in the, in the care
that we get to have, even in themundane and bring, bring that
consciousness through and Ithink to to live in a world
that's only in that blissed outjoyful state, you don't actually
(48:45):
appreciate it if you don't alsohave the duality of the, of the
suffering and of of some of thedifficulty that that life might
present. So yeah, it's aninteresting thing that that
polarity creates. And I feellike it's it comes down to how
we choose to relate tosuffering, how we relate to
(49:08):
failure, or how we relate todoing the hard things because
these conversations that we havewith one another in conflict
will will always be hard andbeing vulnerable is hard in a
lot of ways. So there's there'ssomething about our humaneness
in in what you're saying thatI'm I'm appreciating and the the
(49:32):
granularity of let's not let'snot get whisked away in the
idealism here and the theutopianism because there's
there's a very real thinghappening in the physical plane.
So I would love to actually gothere next and into some of
that. That practicality pieceyou mentioned earlier about
(49:56):
still having hierarchy forexample, to be able to make
decision wins. And I imaginethat there was so much work and
physical labor, let alone theemotional labor that would have
gone into the creation of, ofthe festival. So I guess, what
(50:16):
are on that practical level?
What What have you seen workreally well, in terms of how we
relate to, to that work? Whathas maybe worked for, for you as
a person? I'm curious about theabout the granularity and the
nuance that you've seen,I think what what worked well,
(50:39):
in a sense, and I think I haveto put the context of the
hierarchy into a little bit moreperspective that the in, in the
event of, or in the, in the workthat we did, there was meant to
be no hierarchy or hierarchy.
(50:59):
But because people are peopleand decide, I just want to do
this a little bit, I want toinvest maybe a little bit of
time each month. And there arepeople who say I'm all in I want
to I want everything I want thewhole experience, I want to be
part in every kind of likesubgroup and I want to know
what's going on. And I'minterested in this whole
(51:22):
experience, that alone createsthe difference in hierarchical
structures, because some peopleknow more than others, just
because they are involved more.
And so that as as a context forwhat I meant with a hierarchy.
Other than that we had, wedidn't have the strictest form
of organization where it iseverybody has to say yes. And if
(51:46):
somebody says, I'm not on board,then we have to renegotiate, I
don't know what the term forthat in English as. But we
didn't have that we went on a ona veto based system where as
long as nobody was giving aveto, saying no, that I'm not on
board with this, I'm notsupporting this in this way,
(52:10):
this is not a way for me to goforward, then it would be
renegotiated. But as long assomebody said, Well, I'm not I'm
not really a fan of thisdecision, but I'm okay to go
along, then we would just goalong as a as a community. And
as you mentioned, it is it ismuch more complex and effort for
to sit there with 40 people, andto discuss how we go forward and
(52:37):
to resolve all these issues thatpeople have. And I remember that
we in I was living in a communalkind of like apartment with
seven people. And we were allmore or less involved into this
organization. And the sister ofmy friend came and she said,
(52:57):
you're always discussing so muchare constantly kind of like
discussing things and talkingabout stuff. And I'm not used to
that that's like that feels likeso, so much effort in life, you
know, to constantly discuss andsmooth things out through words.
Right. And so I think that isthat is one thing that is a
(53:19):
little bit strenuous, maybe thatthe larger the group gets said,
we have to find ways to be to beto make this sustainable and to
make this efficient. And at somepoint, we can just discuss it
all out. And everybody has thesame right to decide what's
going on and splitting groupsinto smaller sections and
(53:44):
creating some hierarchy that isnecessary in order to save time,
because we can talk two days,like 10 hours every day, in
order to get to the next step,we need to have some pre
decisions made we need todelegate and so I think that it
is that that motivation or theintrinsic aspiration to have no
(54:09):
hierarchy as a as a group thatwe had or to have as little as
possible and to go from thereand then to find find ways to
create a subsystem that workswith our morale extend or moral
views or whatever standards thatwe that we set up, you know, and
(54:31):
so it is but everything likealways, I just maybe a short
excursion I wanted I spent twodays, two years without a cell
phone. And that was a long timeago, but it was creating a lot
of work for me to find solutionsto problems that people with
(54:52):
cell phones didn't have youknow, so if we have certain
standards or certain aspectsassumes that we want to do
certain things differently thanthe status quo, then we have to
be ready to, to do more workbecause it will be.
Yeah, yeah, it's I couldn'tagree more, I think I think
(55:15):
within authentic relating, orthis is not consensus based, but
this we're we're going to churnthrough a lot of data and
discussion, and there's vetopower within that it does take a
lot of, of relational input orrelational energy, it takes a
(55:39):
lot of emotional input,essentially. And, yeah, I think,
I think when when I think aboutthe the benefits of this,
though, I can't help but feellike a lot of that. A lot of
that is probably worth it,especially in the beginning.
(56:00):
Because I think, I thinksometimes to your point, there's
a tendency to want to swingreally hard the other way, if we
are in aversion to thehierarchy, because the hierarchy
like we blame it, we think ithas hurt us, we think it's the
source of a lot of our problems.
Now, we might want to completelymake that obsolete and swing
(56:21):
really hard into the otherdirection of a more flat,
consensus based decision makingset. But I think, I think in
reality, the, the balance or theharmony often lies in the middle
and more of the integration andwhat I love what you I love what
you said about subgroups,basically, where it's, maybe
(56:43):
there's some sort of hybridhere, where you have, you have
more decentralized branches ofof decision making on specific
things. But there's also there'salso this element of what of
what you're saying, in maybe thepeople who hold the most quote,
unquote, power, for decisionmaking within the hierarchies.
(57:07):
It's not based on positionalpower, it's not based on their
skin color, it's it's based on,that's the person with the
experience and the knowledge andwho is embodying these values
best. And so, so let us let usrun the decisions up that
hierarchy to the to the best fitfor all of that, and and to do
(57:30):
that, in these, these subgroupsare localized pockets that can
then self manage based on theexperience and the wisdom that's
in the system and not some ofthese more biased or perverse
ways of structuring hierarchy.
So it's like, I'm just hearingso loud and clear in what you're
(57:53):
saying that the hierarchy itselfis not is not bad, but the
design principles we've maybeused within hierarchy are, can
be harmful. So what's the what'sthe new set of of how we use
that? And again, I feel thatthat maybe the maybe the
(58:15):
solution is somewhere in themiddle? And I think that's kind
of what we're what we'relearning into, as well. So does
I guess, does that match theexperience that that you've had?
I think from from what I heardyou saying that the the
hierarchy itself is probablymore can more be seen for people
(58:35):
who hear this discussion as aninformal kind of hierarchy or an
informer kind of leadership, itis not actually a position where
people would be like perceivedin that in that position, or
where they would get more moredecision making power, they
would just have to step up withtheir with their knowledge and
(58:58):
share that and say, think aboutthis, because we are doing this,
this and that and then to kindof like delegate it back to the
group to be really responsiblein this leadership position. To
still know that I might be theonly person who has this general
overview but I'm, this doesn'tmake me the person who makes the
(59:21):
decision. This makes me the, thecounterpart or the person who
just relays the information andwhat other people need to know
in order to to make a decisionthat is more appropriate to be
made in this sentence. I justwanted to maybe clarify that a
little bit. And the question Ithink about about that model is
(59:50):
just I think it is groupintelligence to be honest when
you were speaking and when whenI was listening to to to your to
your encapsulation of what youheard, I feel like it is a it is
probably a trust and aconfidence in the collective
mind, in the group process to beable to trust well, maybe this
(01:00:14):
is not my decision, per se, Iwould be going a different
route. But because of the way wecame to the conclusion, I trust
in the process that this will bethe right decision. And at the
same time, I even if I wantedto, I could not recreate the
festival and I was among thosepeople who were really, really
(01:00:38):
deep deep into the organization.
Realizing that we, it was onlypossible for and for us to
create such an outstandingexperience for all people
involved because of everyone whowas part of it. And every, every
kind of like, individual thatcreated that, that collective
(01:00:58):
consciousness or that creative,creative mindset together. And I
think that is an important thingto trust in that we don't have
to all be experts, it is it isenough, if we come together, if
our intentions are aligned inthe sense that we all know what
we know. And we all know thedestination where we want to go,
(01:01:20):
then with that intention set, itis possible to create the most
magnificent, magnificent things,because we're coming together as
a as a group. And the synergy isthere. You know, I think that is
one of the things that is reallyimportant to understand that
when I would bring something upin the beginning of my of my
(01:01:42):
work in this collective 2013, Iwould say something wrong and
quotation. And I would feel badbecause I, I earned a position
and some people were maybearguing and the I want it to be
the person who says somethingsmart or something that is is
bringing us to that solutionafter problem. I don't want to
(01:02:06):
be the person who everybody saysno, we're not doing that. But I
realized over the years thatthese oppose the opposition is,
is oftentimes a vital part ofthat solution, finding that
where the group realizes No,this is actually quite the
opposite of what we want, byrealizing that being able to
formulate what we want, and thento find a better solution. So at
(01:02:30):
some point I eased into, well,maybe this is something that the
group doesn't want to hear. Butit is something that needs to be
said and to trust in thatprocess. It might not bring us
to the solution directly, but itmight be able to bring us around
to the solution, you know,right? The the trust, the trust,
(01:02:50):
even in the opposition is so isso nurturing in what you're
saying. So collectiveintelligence based on trust. We
don't all have to be theexperts, as you said that I felt
my whole body relaxed and likeoh my gosh, yes. Through through
positional power, withinhierarchies. When if we believe
(01:03:13):
in the illusion that as aleader, we're supposed to know
all the answers, that is so muchpressure to put on ourselves.
And it simply isn't isn't true.
We, you know, no single one ofus is going to be the expert of
all things or have all theanswers. So this, this
distributed leadership modelthat you're alluding to, in the
(01:03:36):
distributed wisdom within it andsort of letting, letting that
organically show up turning tothe person that that has that
wisdom, and even an even if youspeak to offer a solution that
can be really, really powerfulas as a prototype, essentially,
where now people have somethingto engage around or to react
(01:03:59):
with. And I think if we asleaders can, can not have the
attachment to the reaction thatthat the collective intelligence
then has, and not make ourselvesbad. If you're wrong, if the the
response from the collectiveintelligence is a no, can we let
(01:04:20):
can we be okay with a no and notmake a story about ourselves for
being wrong? So it's Yeah, Ithink I think this is maybe a
really beautiful place to beginto wrap up our conversation of,
of the potential of ofcollective intelligence within
(01:04:41):
within groups and that so muchof that can be built on trust
and I I've heard I've heard afew people say this now so I'm
glad that it's becoming a bit ofa rallying a rallying tagline in
a way of of the The currency ofthe future is trust. Rather than
(01:05:05):
money, the currency of thefuture is trust and an eye. I
relax into that as well.
Especially as we fight for aworld that is that is more
transparent and where we seethrough a lot of the the opacity
or the the masks that thatpeople will wear to try and
control, extract manipulatewhatever, whatever it might be.
(01:05:29):
So I'm curious Martin, couldyou? Could you perhaps leave us
with any wisdom on yourexperience of trust in in these
communities?
Trust in the communities ortrust per se, that is a? I don't
know, it's probably at this atthis point where I'm at right
(01:05:49):
now. It's probably both, youknow, so I feel going back to
what we spoke about the findingthe glass half full, or seeing
the glass half full, that it isalways our opportunity to open
our hearts and stay open in ourhearts. And Michael singer said
(01:06:14):
that if you don't, I think Ihave to paraphrase because it's
been a long time since I readhis book. But you stay open by
not closing your heart, I thinkso by by staying open. Using
whatever, like whatever happensto us and whenever we're
disappointed when I'm sad,angry, all the all the negative
(01:06:37):
and quotation, emotions, lookingusing self reflection and seeing
what where am I where am Iholding on as in the in the I
want to be the leader who, whomakes remarks that are smart,
and bringing solutions, lettinggo of that principle and seeing
well there is value in, in whatI said even though I thought
(01:07:01):
it's, it's it's bad, you know,and so I feel like when we're
able to stay open and to likeinspect our emotional landscape,
especially when it's negative,but also when it's positive and
to stop, kind of like holding onto that we build trust mostly in
ourselves, that whatever comesmy way, I will be able to, to
(01:07:25):
see the beauty in that and toforgive myself and others for
whatever experiences that Imake. And to trust in that no
matter what happens. We willfind a way we will be we will be
like we were it was soadaptable. You know, we're it's
such a adaptable species. If weif we're able to make the next
(01:07:50):
step in the evolution and kindof like, put our ego in its
right place not to kind of likejust solidified or bring it into
like non existence, but to tojust use our mind rather than
our mind using us. And I thinkwe're really set set for the
(01:08:13):
future, you know, so I don'tknow I love the quote of the
mind is a beautiful servant, buta cruel master, you know, so in
a sense, to just really trusttrust in the process. You know,
that's probably that's probablyit.
(01:08:33):
Amazing. Yeah. I love I lovethat quote, as well. Yeah.
Martin, thank you so much. Andthank you for leaving us with
this. This sentiment aroundtrust within as well and our
ability to, to nurture that tobe self responsible enough to,
to form that relationship withinourselves that we can that we
(01:08:54):
can trust ourselves to doanything to adapt and to, to
pick ourselves up even when whenthings get hard. So thank you
for for bringing us to this thislovely, final note in our
conversation and it has beensuch a joy to traverse these
topics with you. Thank you somuch for your wisdom and your
(01:09:15):
presence today. Thank you
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