The Death of a Business Paradigm | Janet Booth | Ep. 20 - Living Leaders

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Jan, I couldn't be more excitedto have you on the show today.
Welcome. Thank you so much. It'sgreat to be here. I know we're
gonna get into some really richcontent. But I wanted to share
with the listeners first beforewe get started, how we met,
because it's we sort ofrepresent this, this interesting
combination of wisdom. And todaywe're going to be doing a lot of

(00:26):
translating across ourrespective worlds. Jen and I
first met when I was the CFO ofa company who was training,
death, doulas, or end of lifecaregivers, mostly nurses, but
also people who had loved onesthat were perhaps nearing end of
life and just wanting to knowhow to approach that with care.

(00:49):
And as humans, of course, weall, we all will face death in
our own ways, we'll all faceending in our own ways. And as
someone who works so frequentlywith business owners who are
scaling and leaving behindprevious versions of themselves,
or previous strategies that onceworked at certain levels of

(01:12):
scale, but no longer work, aswell as working with executives
who find themselves in thesehuge paradigm shifts, whether
it's moving to a remoteworkforce, or getting really
serious about acknowledgingthings like climate change, the
whole business landscape, is, isat a very vast tipping point

(01:34):
across all systems. It'sultimately a cultural transition
that we're in when it comes towork, and how we even do
business and leadership. Andwhenever there's this level,
this scale of change, it comeswith it, loss and grief. And so
we're joined today by Jen booth,who is an end of life caregiver,

(01:59):
and Jan, I'm gonna have youintroduce yourself in a moment.
But you you bring such wisdomabout, what what can we as
business owners, what can we asexecutives, learn from end of
life care and rewriting orupdating our relationship to
death to endings, so that we canbe better leaders navigating

(02:22):
this huge landscape of change?
So I couldn't be more excited tohave this conversation with you
and bring your wisdom to to ourlisteners. And I want to start
by inviting your story and andespecially because end of life
might be a little bit unfamiliarto folks, Could you walk us
through how did you get intothis line of work? And what is

(02:44):
end of life care for you? Whatwhat is a death doula? Yeah.
I love that we're having thisconversation. So first of all,
just great gratitude that youreached out and wanted to have
the conversation because I lovehow your mind works, and that

(03:05):
you could see this deepconnection, just in the words
you said there, so I soappreciate it. I'm a nurse by
training. And when I went tonursing school, I thought I was
going to be a midwife, and birthbabies. And in my first semester
of nursing school, I had thisepiphany that it wasn't birth,

(03:26):
it was death that I needed towork in, and in a sense, be a
part of midwifing people out ofthe last chapter of their lives
into their death. And so I was ahospice nurse at the bedside for
many years and learnedincredible skills there and
learn so much about people, andabout humanity. And I also

(03:48):
learned that the great majorityof families came
completely unprepared for whatwas happening, without
experience, with a lot of fear,with a lot of resistance to
being in hospice, with a senseof being blindsided. And I saw
this so often. And it was a realcontrast to my understanding of

(04:13):
the human tasks and developmentof being a human, you know,
stages of development, and whywe're so many people completely
unprepared for what every one ofus will do. And after a number
of years of working hospicebedside, and then also in an
oncology center as a palliativecare nurse, I decided to listen

(04:35):
to this, this voice that wascalling me away from the bedside
and more out into the community.
And so I took a deeper dive intothis whole concept of conscious
dying. This was a time in aroundthe mid 90s. I'd been a hospice
nurse about 10 years at thatpoint, and this was kind of new

(04:59):
to Me, this whole area ofconscious dying were people who
were seeing the potential fordeath and dying grief and loss
to be approached in a verydifferent way. And they, they
was really drawn to that andlearned a lot through that that
time. went to grad school alittle bit unexpectedly, because

(05:23):
I was so curious about followingthis kind of path of conscious
dying out of my bedrock ofhaving been a hospice nurse, I
started to see that there werenew models this is around. At
this point, in 2014 2015, Istarted to see more new models
emerging things like death,doulas, and death Cafe is where

(05:46):
people went to talk about deathand a desire for more people to
be buried in a green burial,just the body in the ground and
many other models that wereemerging to me what I was seeing
was emerging in a response tohow we we have lost the thread

(06:14):
of death within community, anddeath is a natural part of life.
So I studied the culturaltransformation that I saw
happening in end of life care.
And particularly, I wrote a bookduring that time for nurses to
help nurses have more of a voiceand opening up the conversation
about death and dying. So I justkept following that thread out

(06:35):
of grad school to see who werethe disruptors what was
happening, why was it happening,were moving, you know, death was
taboo, so that I see this movetowards opening up the
conversation about end of lifedeath as a failure, it was
another kind of belief out ofthe medical medical system,
right, we're trying to stoppeople from dying. So death is

(06:55):
failure, then to the shift thatI saw happening, new models that
are saying death is apurposeful, meaningful stage of
human development. Andparticularly, I'm talking slow
death, sudden death, it's hardto feel that with, with sudden
death. And also saw that anotherbig part of this cultural

(07:20):
transformation was that so manyof us were experiencing
isolation, either in our time ofdying, living with serious
illness being a caregiver, somuch was expected of a few
people to manage what really isdone best in community. So I've
been following those models andfinding some really interesting

(07:41):
experiences in teaching andtraining and facilitating in a
death doula program, and anotherprogram through the New York
open center, that is kind of anoverview of the more innovative,
progressive, culturaltransformative teaching that is
out there right now. And that'ssort of where I've landed at

(08:03):
this point, and where you and Iintersected, which is, what can
we learn from the the wisdom, ofbeing with death in a different
way, being with grief in adifferent way? And how can we
apply it to all parts ofour life? So I think that's a

(08:26):
that's probably enough about howI got to where I am. And of
course, along the way, I willjust add, that I've gotten
older, I've gone throughcaregiving and and grief and
loss of my own and change andcome to understand as a person,
the power of these practices fordeath. You know, some people say

(08:47):
we have 10,000 losses in alifetime. And then how do we
navigate that? And so learningabout that, and practicing that
in my own life, learning aboutgrief and the value in the
wisdom of the grief process. Andso, I'm doing a lot of work in
different ways to open up thisconversation so that hopefully

(09:09):
people see something morethan then pain and sorrow.
Absolutely,um, see possibilities for what
this conversation how thisconversation can impact all
parts of our life.
Yeah, absolutely. I definitelywant to circle back to what you

(09:30):
said about practicing for deathin a moment. But I want to I
want to highlight a couple ofthings that really jumped out in
what you shared. You talkedabout how these some of these
things are best done incommunity and this this aspect
of isolation, making it evenmore difficult in ways and I
think in the business world,whether whether we are facing

(09:53):
massive layoffs or losing a jobor transitioning to a new role,
often the the pace of producttivity are the really the the
pace of making profit is sofast, there's no time there's no
spaciousness to actually processour emotions in in these big,
big changes. And unless you havea team who can really catch you

(10:19):
and create those, those micromoments to process these big
changes together, I think oftenwe're left with having to cope
with that on our own in inisolation, and turning to
unhealthy coping mechanisms likealcohol, or over eating or
numbing out through TV, all ofthese things. And I think, I

(10:42):
think one thing I'm realizing inreal time and receiving you is
just how much our ability tometabolize grief impacts our
health in every areas of life,whether it's our physical
health, and also ourrelationships. Coming back to
this community bit that youmentioned, if I'm, if I'm

(11:02):
feeling alone, and I'm grieving,the loss of who I once was, as
an executive who just got gottenkind of pulled out of an
organization or was forced tostep down as also happens,
sometimes, not only am I losingthat, that self identity, if my
self worth is wrapped up in whoI think I am at work or the

(11:26):
success that I've been able togenerate in that particular
context. Now I'm faced with,with failure, and that was a
word you used as well likeseeing death as failure in our
society. And in business, thisthis is also very taboo in a
sense of, we try so hard not tofail, we push ourselves beyond

(11:48):
what's healthy, to grow ourcompanies into perpetuity, to
push ourselves to be productive,even when the body is
desperately begging us for rest,replenishment regeneration. And
we can get into such a depletedstate of burnout in that sense.

(12:09):
So what I'm hearing in whatyou're saying is that by by
forming a new relationship tochange or to death, we can
become better change agentseffectively and have more space,
not only for ourselves, and ourown health, our relationships,
but also to have the space torun healthy teams. So I'm

(12:33):
curious what you've what you'veseen, and how you relate to how
most people are relating todeath? And what can we learn
from end of life to evolve ourown relationships to change and
death so that we ourselves cancan be healthier and more
connected to one another?

(12:54):
Yeah, great, great question. Oneof the things that helps me is,
is to put a question like that,or exploration in context. So
it's relatively recent, really,in the last 6080 years that

(13:15):
we've had this understanding ofdeath as a failure, and death as
taboo conversation. Not that wewere all heavily enlightened in
the past, butour culture looked different.
And we, we lived more in smallercommunities. And there was not

(13:40):
the option. Most people died ofinfections and injuries. And
most people had multigenerations nearby or living
together. And so we witnesseddying, and diminishment and
illness and grief, in verydifferent ways. And of course,

(14:00):
there are just a myriad of waysthat people can go through this
because there's the wholecultural piece of how we
navigate death and grief andloss. But it's relatively recent
that death has been such a tabooconversation and and one where
it's seen as failure, and we'redoing everything we can to stop

(14:20):
it. So we're having to relearnsome things. Like, how does the
body die? What's theintelligence of the dying
process? How do we support thatand not fight it? What does it
mean to allow a body to dienaturally in 2023, when we have

(14:42):
so many ways to stop it? And,and I would say the same about
grief we're having to sort oflearn in modern times,
how to live with the complexity,the uncertainty of grief, and,

(15:02):
and to have some some way ofunderstanding the dark night of
the soul. And, and I use soulpurposely because I think in
many ways even though it's hardto talk about soul maybe in the
in the workplace. But I thinkone of the reasons that that
these cultural disruptors areemerging is because we've lost

(15:26):
some of the track of this moresoulful way of being in the
world, which is to me part ofour humanity. And so, Soul time
is slow time. And, you know,moving at the speed of soul, as
some people say, is very slow.
And it couldn't be further fromwhat you're talking about in the
modern work life, right. Andthat's only getting those

(15:48):
timelines are only gettingshorter, you know, when you look
at the average lifespan of abusiness now compared to what it
was before. So that the contextof of us at this kind of
crossroads, which is why it's atime of transformation. Because
we have tried this other way ofseeing death only on a physical

(16:11):
level of seeing death as afailure of numbing ourselves and
distracting ourselves fromanything related to the
emotions, or the spiritualdistress around around grief. So
we're having to learnthese skills in a time, where

(16:35):
there really isn't much time todo those things. So in a busy
workplace, for example, whenhalf the team has been cut, is
there any place for a ritual ofslowing down, taking some
moments taking some time toacknowledge what's happened to

(16:57):
acknowledge the impact that ithas on us this loss and change,
to name the emotions that arehappening, to talk about what
our experience of it is to havesome kind of ritual of ending of
gratitude of grief, before wemove on? So even in these

(17:20):
smaller moments within thebusyness of daily life? Can we
create some sense of notordinary time, which is what
ritual is it takes us into, ittakes us out of ordinary busy
time, into something that saysthis is worth slowing down for
for a moment. And, and I thinklearning to maybe I'm moving a

(17:44):
little bit into this sort ofpractices, practices, we have
four small ways that we canacknowledge that something has
changed, that is hard that we'reexperiencing fear, we're
experiencing sadness, can we canwe mark that and name it and not

(18:05):
try to right away, cover it up.
And that's what so many peoplewho I speak with over from all
different kinds of backgroundsand different age groups, so
many people speak of, not havinghad a place growing up, or as an
adult, were talking about thesehard things is allowed. You

(18:25):
know, if you get maybe unhealthyenough, and and your life is
falling apart, and then maybe atthat point, there's some
permission, like go get therapyor go get on medication, you
know, but the kind of nurturingof the impact of grief and loss
the the the navigating andtalking about skills that help

(18:49):
us to navigate change and loss.
And I don't think we do a verygood job of that so
well, maybe that maybe that'senough. Maybe that's enough
there for now, I feel like Icould go down a whole whole
nother a whole nother roadthere. But I think it's sort of

(19:11):
coming back to what can what dowe know about
the place of death? What do weknow about what grief
has for us that could actuallybe a benefit. You know, I my
mind jumps to the art of dying.
You know, this is this concept.

(19:33):
In the Western world. I think itwas probably 15 century the RS
Maurienne day was this. This waswritten a book called The Art of
dying. And I'm sure that manycultures have some version of
this, but the sense that there'ssomething that transcends and
that interrupts the busyness ofa workday and the busyness of a

(19:55):
life and the productivity focusof a workplace and A vision. And
there's something thattranscends that, that is the art
of dying and the art of living.
And how do we bring that intowhat generally we're more
comfortable with, which is thescience and the engineering of
it, right? You know, the threesteps and the, the vision and
the map that gets there thatoften is much more on a kind of

(20:19):
physical level. And I thinkthere's a real interesting
parallel in what has happened,you know, what is emerging in
the culture as a reaction to thebiomedical model of dying, that
is so prevalent in health care,the body dies, and we don't
really talk about grief, and wedon't really talk about the

(20:41):
bigger picture of what's at playwith a human being coming into
this last part of life, youknow, spiritually, what do they
believe happens after they die?
And how is the family doing? Andis there a community to support
this and hold this, we talk muchmore about keeping the body

(21:01):
alive and not dying, and all theways we can do that. And I think
there's a parallel also, inother parts of our life, where
we, we aren't sure what to dowith this whole idea of the art
of living, which is quality ofliving, right, a quality of
living a quality of a work life,a quality of a community within

(21:24):
a workplace, and, and how do wehow do we talk about that in a
different way?
Yeah, it's,this is so this is so beautiful,
and so helpful, the way you'reframing this, I see the parallel
between looking at the sort ofthe one dimensionality of
looking at health, through onlythe lens of the physical

(21:46):
metrics. That's just onedimension, it's like, we're
missing so much of our humanitywhen we only measure that. And
when we build entire incentivestructures and decision making
architecture around those onedimensional metrics, and I see
this in business all the time,where what we've been trained in
business school, is to look atthe one dimensional metrics of

(22:10):
say, profit. And we now haveglobal, globally scaled
incentive structures to operateand make our decisions solely on
this and solely to measuresuccess against this. But I
think what you've reminded of uswere reminded us of as well is
that this is fairly new in humanhistory, predatory capitalism,

(22:34):
and consumerism, at the scalethat we see it is relatively
new, there's a much more ancientway of being with death, of
being in community of unlockingthese more reciprocal
relationships, in our exchangesacross people, rather than
having it purely betransactional. Because when it's

(22:58):
transactional, you miss you missthe people, when death is, is
only in the physical aspect, youyou miss everything else. And I
think one thing that I see a lotwith my clients and, and as well
as with the sustainabilityexecutives that I'm working
with, through HarvardUniversity, in this annual

(23:19):
annual program that we hold,where we have 120 sustainability
executives come through from allaround the world. And they're,
they're always facing this, thisbalance, right, where some are
still operating within the game,within the rules of the game,
that are focused on these veryspecific metrics. And yet, they

(23:41):
see, wow, if we're really goingto change at the scale that we
need, we've got to start lookingat these other these other
metrics, you've got to startletting go. And, and I love what
you said about really findingthat, that sacred space and an
abnormal sense of time in a wayof, of deep, slow time. Because

(24:05):
I think often we think thatproductivity and doing doing
doing prioritizing all thethings external to us is what
gets us there. But actually,when when we slow down and let
some of that go, and really dropin to reflect on okay, what do I

(24:26):
want to keep what what worked inthis last cycle of life? Or this
last cycle of business? What doI want to keep? And what do I
want to let go of? And I thinkoften it's in that space and in
that deeper relationship to bigtime, or non time, if you will,
where some of the biggestinsights come where maybe we're

(24:48):
dropping into a deeper truthconnecting to our why connecting
to our purpose, and that thensets us up To make the decisions
in the next cycle, and I seethis a lot in clients where one
of the things that I that I helpbusiness owners, one lens that

(25:09):
we look through is actuallythrough the lens of cycle
thinking for any business ownerswho who menstruate. And we, we
start to bring nature's cycle,which does include a death phase
or a menstrual phase, being indeep rest and deep, slow time.
And the magic that comes out ofthat. So I think part of part of

(25:31):
what we're coming home to is, isnot only what we already know,
but we're healing ourrelationship, our integrated
relationship with the masculineand the feminine, we've been in
a hyper masculine phase that hastaken us away from our bodies,
into our heads only operatingfrom logic, not our somatic

(25:56):
wisdom, we've we've overprioritize the productivity in
the doing without, withouthaving the time or the the
resourcing for rest. It's like,if your team is resting and
integrating is that really work.
And I would argue that it isthat it's actually deeply

(26:16):
strategic work, because that'swhere the deepest strategy is
going to come out and theinsights. So I'm Yeah, I'm just
kind of marveling in what you'resaying about about deep time.
And I want to share this oneparticular exercise that we do
in the executive ed program thatI think really illustrates this,

(26:39):
we actually have a multi, it'slike a 200 year timeline. And we
net now that we're 100%,virtual, because of COVID, we do
this on a virtual whiteboard.
And people place a.on Thetimeline of where they where
they think their life will end.

(27:00):
And if they have children, theythen place a.on, where do they
think their children's life willend. And so this immediately
zooms out the perception oftime, we sort of are forcing the
executives in safe space, wecreate a very safe space to be
able to do this, of course, butthey're sort of facing their own
mortality. And we're looking atthis larger timeline of

(27:22):
humanity. And then we start tobuild this, this narrative, this
shared story of humanity, wherewe're like, okay, based on
climate science, here's wherehere's where biodiversity loss
hits this point, here's whatthat looks like, here's where we
predict that, you know, maybewater wars will begin or mass

(27:44):
migrations in these areas,because of climate events start
to happen, political disrupthere, like we paint the whole
picture of how these bigecological shifts impact
humanity. And, and you start tosee, wow, we I mean, business,
as usual, is very, very broken.
And when you zoom out on thistimeline, and, and drop into

(28:08):
this, this relationship to ourown mortality, like you start to
see, okay, maybe I do need totake a breath, maybe I do need
to slow down and start toiterate and prototype different
ways of doing business. Becauseif we, if we keep going at this

(28:29):
pace, if we keep not slowingdown, the cost of that is larger
than the short term profit,we're obsessed with chasing. So
yeah, this coming home feels sosignificant.
That's such a great example whatyou do in the program, that's

(28:49):
such a great example of thelessons from death. And it
reminds me of, and I'm sureanyone listening can think
either in their own life ofpeople they know where either a
close brush with death or adiagnosis of a serious illness

(29:10):
has really awakened someone tothe preciousness of life. Right.
To me, this is one of the majorreasons why engaging with
mortality on a regular basis,our own death and dying,
physical end of our life, notjust the the 10,000 losses of
our life, but the actual meaningof our life is such an important

(29:32):
practice. And there are manyspiritual traditions that you
know where a skull is sitting onthe meditation table or sitting
on the place where you'rewriting or somewhere central in
the kitchen or you know, as thatreminder, because it does change
the conversation.

(29:54):
There is no business as usual.
If we are holding thereal malady of our of our own
dying. And so how often someonehas a diagnosis of something and
and changes their life, right?
Or something else I've seen bevery impactful for people is

(30:17):
is the role of regret. Andthere's something that that
periodically goes viral that waswritten by a hospice nurse many
years ago called The FiveRegrets of the Dying. And
they're the things that we couldprobably all come up with that
list of what are the things thatwhen it comes down to it, I'm in
my last days and weeks of mylife, really our most important

(30:39):
and it's relationships. Itreally is mostly our
relationships with others. Butit's also a sense that I lived a
life authentic to who I am andwhat I, you know,
who I am, right,that I that I used my voice that
I loved, that I took chancesthat all those things that I

(31:03):
think every one of us knows, ifwe're lucky to have tapped into
that kind of depth and honestythat we know is most important
for us. So how do we capturethat and a bottle, right,
because usually, the danger isgone, the diagnosis gets better
as time goes on. And I forget,and I'm back to business as

(31:25):
usual. So for me,some kind of practice,
related to the reality of, youknow, the end of my life, is a
really potent way to keep me inthe processes of the present,
let alone the fact that I don'tknow how long I have. And so if

(31:47):
I just sort of plan is if I'mgoing to die when I'm 80 or 90.
But how many of us die youngerthan that, you know, that
practice is what awakens me tonow is the time, now is the time
to live that as authentically asI can to say, I love you, I
forgive you, please forgive me,thank you gratitude, to the

(32:12):
people who are most important tome, it's like all those things
that when it comes down to itare most important, but are so
easy to forget. And so that'syet another reason why these
practices and holding out thereality of our death, as a
reminder, because it changeshow we live, it changes how we

(32:33):
prioritize spending time. Andit's, it's really hard. I mean,
I, I'm not 24/7. But if you'dasked my husband, he'd say, it's
almost 24/7 I'm so immersed inthis conversation, because it
really feeds me and fills me.
But also, I'm only half jokingwhen I say this. I think one of

(32:57):
the reasons why I'm so involvedin it is because I need even
more reminders than other peopleabout how precious life is. And
even with that, even with thisbeing my life's work, I can fall
asleep to it. I could fallasleep to it. So you know, this,
this modelof productivity and this model

(33:19):
in healthcare of only physicalhealth as the goal,
then what does that mean forthose of us who are aging, and
diminishing and losingcapacities, and those of us who
are slowly dying? What does thatmean? If we've set out the goal

(33:44):
as being a sort of vitalengagement with life and staying
alive? And how do we reframe thepicture to one that is more of a
whole human holistic, that thathas room for for vitality and
youth and has room for aging?
has an understanding of thewisdom of elders? And the place

(34:07):
of that that is a whole notherconversation of law. So really,
you know, the I think the reasonwhy this is a kind of a
fascinating time to me and why Ilove you know, tracking and a
culturally tracking what'semerging is because more and
more people are recognizing thatthese old models aren't working.

(34:28):
They're not working, they're notsustainable.
They're not adding to ourhumanity. They, they
they seem in many ways that ofmodern life seems in many ways

(34:49):
out of out of sync with, with,with what we've learned the
wisdom of humanity up to thispoint of what we've learned and
the as if somehow that has beenput off into another category
like, you know, my spirituallife or my church life or my
faith community or myexploration of what is it all

(35:11):
mean is somehow notreally a priority or valued.
What's valued is what Icontribute in terms of
productivity. So I think we'reseeing also in the younger
generation, at least what I seeand in

(35:34):
the millennial world is justsort of us that generation is so
much questioning of these oldmodels. And so much of you know,
the death doula programs arefull of young people, mostly
young women, but also some youngmen. And and the doula is not a
new. It's a new role to us inmany ways, but it's really an

(35:54):
old role that's been around inin tech societies and cultures
for a very long time. Like abirth doula supporting a woman
giving birth and a death doulais supporting the family at end
of life. It's a non medicalrole. Anyone can be it. In fact,
most doulas are not coming fromhealthcare background, coming
from all different backgrounds,but there's this call that

(36:16):
people are hearing used to bethat the call in my day, which
was not that long ago, but youknow, 35 plus years ago, when I
started in hospice, that callwas for basically clinical
people to be called to somethinglike hospice, well, that's very
different. Now, the call isbeing heard by people from all
backgrounds, all ages. And it'sa it's a call, and you see them

(36:40):
in the doula programs and theseother programs I teach, and
people who say, I never thoughtI'd be in a program like this,
learning about this. But Irealized, I really want to
understand death and dying andgrief, because of things that
have happened in my life. MaybeI saw death in a whole
different, more positive waythrough an experience I had, and

(37:03):
I'm thinking, why didn't I knowabout this? And I want to share
this. Other people may have hadreally negative experiences, and
they're thinking, why if we'reall going to die, why, why is
this? Why are so many peopledying in isolation, and no one
can talk about it. And I don'thave any place to share what has
been a really hard walk for me.

(37:27):
So people are coming for allkinds of different reasons. But
I think this is this beautifulpart of this emerging new roles,
new sensibilities, newcuriosities, a commitment to a
more human humane, soulfulspirit field, and you know, all
kinds of different words I couldgive to it, quality of living,

(37:50):
and it can't help but infiltrateeverything, it's it's
infiltrating churches that don'tquite know what to do with it.
It's infiltrating educationsystems and not infiltrating.
But it's, you know, it's movinginto the business world, you
know, you know, typically in theworld of business, you
experience a death and you havethree, if you're lucky, you have

(38:12):
three bereavement days, and thenit's kind of getting better get
back to,you know, and, and this,
this experience of, of loss fromsomeone's death, but loss from
all the other ways that we canlose things, you know, losing a
marriage through divorce, orseparation, or kids growing up

(38:35):
and moving away or losing asense of safety. Because of
something that happened to youthe loss of, of trust in your
childhood, because of traumasdid you experience I mean,
there's so many different waysthat we've experienced loss. And
I think part of what is alsocalling people to this work is

(38:57):
wanting to have a differentrelationship with grief and
loss. And a lot of young peoplewho are saying, This is crazy
that I don't really know what todo and who to talk to.
Yeah, it's, I mean, it'sfascinating because I feel like
this, it shows up as we want todie differently than than the

(39:20):
current system is inviting us toto die. So there's, there's that
piece and this, this call as youas you named it, permeating
everything I really see thatit's, it's almost as if there's
an increase in consciousness orincrease in awareness to this
where I think in the businessworld, people are really feeling

(39:44):
the call towards more conscious,regenerative leadership, and
maybe this is true in healthcareas well. But I think I think as
people continue to, to evokethese new wantings Are these
These more conscious versions ofeverything effectively, that the

(40:05):
the resourcing where we chooseto work is, is moving. There's a
big trend here of people andtheir talent, wanting to work
for people who are moreconscious. And companies who are
more sustainable and actuallysaying no, setting a boundary
with the previous way of doingthings. And I, you know, imagine

(40:28):
in healthcare that it could besimilar in in how our choices
are changing, and our demands onwhat our standards for these
aspects of life are increasing,which is really a beautiful
place to be. But I think to oneof your earlier points as well,

(40:50):
this this spaciousness ofgrieving, I think, I think one
thing people don't realize isthat when you when you go into
the loss, and you go into thegrief, in all of these micro
moments along the way, whetherit's a failed project, actually
losing someone at a marriagefailing, as you mentioned,

(41:11):
losing a pet, I mean, that lossis everywhere. And I think one
thing, at least that I didn'trealize until I actually went
through the end of life doulaprogram for the company, where
we where we met, was that, wow,when I process this, when I am
truly with my grief, I createmore spaciousness within myself,

(41:36):
I create more space for life.
And particularly working withsustainability executives.
Ecological grief is turning upmore and more and more, I mean,
yeah, the fires. Yes, yes. Thefires in Australia, it's like,
how can you expect people to bein the paradigm of business as

(41:59):
usual, and show up inproductivity when their
country's on fire, and the lossof biodiversity that goes hand
in hand, with these massiveevents, it's, you sometimes were
forced into the grief, and, andforced to kind of navigate that
in real time. And when it's onthat scale, when it's at the

(42:20):
level of say, the pandemic,right, a lot of us were forced
into isolation, really being inthe stillness, slowing down to
process our, our grief of, ofwhat work even was before the
pandemic, what family and thefreedom of getting to live in
the way the ways that we wereused to, we had to, we were

(42:41):
forced to sit down and do that.
But if you're not practicing, Ithink the pain can be quite
acute, in that way. Becausewe've formed we formed those
attachments, we haven'tpracticed letting go of
attachments to people orprojects, or whatever else. It

(43:04):
might be. So I'm, yeah,continuing to see so many, so
many parallels across my worldshere.
That That's right. And thatreally, that really struck me
when you said that about youknow, the the accumulated grief
that so many of us are caringfor coming from all kinds of

(43:24):
different directions, and beingexpected to do business as
usual. And, you know, it's, it'sas if it is if we need a whole,
sorry, my computer's just doingsomething funny here, there we
go. We need a different set ofskills. Just like as we came

(43:48):
into the computer age, we neededa whole different set of skills
than the ones we'd had, right.
And whole new roles were createda new ways of learning and all
that. It seems like what's beingasked is not just new models and
disruptors for ways of doingthings, but also new models for

(44:08):
how to live more consciouslywith the fullness of our
experience of being human.
And, and what what, what thateven
looks like so you think of aleader of an organization. One

(44:29):
of the things that a moreconscious leader of an
organization who is wanting tolive more out of this idea of of
understanding the many losses ofour lifetime and what are some
of the skills of moving throughthat the art of dying, the art
of living, you know, a moreconscious leader who may want to
bring some of that understandinginto their, their workplace and

(44:52):
into their organization. Goodjust start with themselves
because I think that that's sooften in the courses that I
teach in, in the groups that Ilead, we come here to ourselves
first, not trying to go outthere and make things better for
other people or to fixsomething, but to come to

(45:12):
ourselves and to increase ourown self awareness of what has
been my experience of death.
What were the what's the firstsignificant loss that I
remember? Was it death? Was it adifferent kind of loss, like the
divorce of my parents orsomething like that? And how did
people around me talk about it?
What was my experience of it?
What were my feelings? Didpeople give me any language for

(45:35):
it? And, and sort of looking ina sense, it's like a life review
of my losses, you know, and it'sactually really interesting,
kind of along the lines of whatyou do with the leaders, you
know, when you had that 200 yeartimeline, is to to, starting
from birth to where you areright now in 2023, to just make
your own timeline, and to markon that timeline of your life,

(46:00):
where the significant losses andchanges were, and the turning
points, because often, often,those losses were also major
turning points in your life? Andwhat kind of turning point was
it? You know, did it take medown? Did it take me up? Did it
take me into a spiral? Becausethat's the piece that it you

(46:23):
know, talk about learning at theat the pace of soul? That's the
stuff that often we don't maketime for it? Which is, what did
I learn from this experience?
Not just naming the feelings,that's already something just to
name the feelings, right? Butthen we to have some

(46:44):
perspective, looking back atyour life to say, what did I
learn from that? Because itwasn't all awful. Often, those
turning points and those losseswere recommitment to life, or
new opportunities that neveroccurred to me, you know, we
can, we can fill in all kinds ofthings, I had to draw on a

(47:06):
different level of courage, or Ihad to figure out how to be on
my own or whatever it is. Sothis is this more conscious
approach that starts withourselves, means I look at my
own history of grief of loss, Ilook at how I experienced grief,
and what do I believe about it?
Like is it just something to getthrough? Do I just stuff it
down.

(47:30):
And, and I think,you know, as a leader of an
organization, or a person whowants to be a more conscious
presence around loss and grief,it could be in their community,
it could be in their book club,it doesn't have to be the leader
of an organization.
But knowing your own experience,and looking at

(47:57):
what has informed you and whatyour beliefs are, then can help
you to show up more for otherpeople. Because that's then the
next ripple, you know, if it'slike a center rippling out, then
once you have a little moreunderstanding of your own
history, and also an importantpart of that history is what do

(48:21):
I do when I'm in pain? And whenI experience suffering? And what
is my response to that? And am Isomeone who numbs and distracts
or am I someone who's wanting tolearn a different way to be with
because that skill of being withmy own suffering is one of the
most important human skills inbeing with others. Because often

(48:44):
the reason why we can't be withother people who are suffering,
grieving, whatever the sufferingis, is because it makes me feel
bad. I mean, why else? Do wehave this kind of toxic positive
culture in this country around,just be happy? And come on,
let's that that makes us sad.
Let's not talk about that, youknow, totally. And so I love
that term, toxic positivity. Ithink that's one of my favorite

(49:07):
sociological terms that havecome out. But understanding my
own response to suffering and,and being able to sit a little
bit longer, with uncomfortablefeelings, and pain and suffering
without reaching to numb ordistract ourselves, will then
allow us to be there presentwith others. I had a young woman

(49:30):
call me not too long ago and shethought that she needed to go to
a grief therapist because shewas managing some really
significant grief in her life.
And I was listening to see wouldit be helpful for her to talk to
a grief therapist or is whatshe's needing is a place just to

(49:53):
talk about what's happening?
Because it's so hard to findthose places to say I'm
struggling I'm sad and to havesomeone who can sit there and
not try to make her feel betternot try to fix the situation,
not feel like they don't want tohear this this story. And, you
know, one of the many emergingmodels coming out now around

(50:19):
grief and the collective natureof grief is this idea of
companioning each other. So it'sAlan wolfelt, has written up.
He's a grief expert. And he'swritten this handbook for
companioning, the mourner. Andhe makes a point that it's a

(50:39):
very different model. It's morelike the doula model is a very
different model thanprofessionalizing or
pathologizing grief, where youhave to go to someone who is a
healthcare provider to talkabout your grief. What if, for
most of us, who are not going toexperience more complicated
grief, so I'm not talking aboutthat maybe 10% of people whose

(51:01):
grief is is truly complicatedenough, that someone who really
has some expertise with it willbe really helpful. But for the
most of us, what what does itmean to develop a different
relationship to our ownsuffering, so that I can show up
for youand not need to do anything more

(51:21):
than hold space to create thisout of ordinary
time together, where you feelthat I am, they're able to just
hear whatever you need to say.
And so whoever we aredeveloping those skills during

(51:46):
the life review of our own griefand losses to understand what it
is we're carrying, what had beenour beliefs and experiences
around grief, developing our owncapacities to be with the
discomfort and the uncertaintyand sad feelings so that we can
then be there more for otherpeople, so that they can have

(52:06):
places where they can talk aboutthis, and move, move through it.
It's that metabolizing, not justindividually, but collectively,
we're metabolizing. And whatthat does is it normalizes it.
And that's so much of what'shappening now in my work. And
many of us who are in this,maybe more progressive,

(52:28):
conscious end of life world, orwhatever we call it a lot of new
models is that we're normalizingthis, we're taking it out of
taboo land, and where we'resaying,
it's not easy to be a humanbeing. There's a lot involved in
it.
There is and where do we learnthese things? Where are the

(52:52):
where are the schools for thesekinds of life skills and this
kind of literacy. And the morewe can do that for ourselves and
for each other, we we arecontributing to this
transformation of how we livewith loss, how we prioritize how
they our own art of living, andhow we're going to navigate the

(53:15):
art of our dying.
Andleaders of organizations who can
model that and be that forothers are going to start seeing
their own organizations more asa living being if they haven't
already, and then able to seewithin their organization, the

(53:35):
beginning the middle, theendings, and feel doesn't mean
there may not feel grief at theloss of jobs, or the loss of
what I'd hoped would be a 20year run for this startup and it
ends up it's going to be a twoyear run, you know, but that,
that perspective, that biggerperspective, and that ability to

(53:57):
hold some of these harder thingstranslates into seeing changes
within our organizationsdifferently and seeing, Oh, this
is dying off, I don't have tojust be afraid of it. Oh, we're
sad about this not working out.
We don't have to just stuff thatsadness and not talk about it.

(54:22):
So really, what we're talkingabout is how does a leader of an
organization or a leader withina community and I mean by leader
in a community, anybody who ischoosing to lead in this more
human conscious way? How do wedevelop these qualities and have
vocabulary for things like wellbeing and wisdom and healing?

(54:45):
You know, how does how does thatbecome more and more woven into
how we live our lives and so Icome back and forth all the time
between this big picture andwhat it looks like, you know, in
the everyday Theprocess of living, incredible,
oh my goodness Jamm lookorganizations as living beings,

(55:10):
that that in and of itself,there's so many profound things
in what you just said there. Butthat is really sitting in a deep
place for me as we as we rerecalibrate our relationship to
to nature systems and look toregenerative business models.
It's yeah, organizations aresystems of humans and we are

(55:35):
living being so anything wecreate, is, is alive and can
have a lifespan. And as yousaid, you know, maybe a startup
dies sooner than we than wethought, can we? Can we be okay
with that? And I think with,especially with the context that
we find ourselves in now,there's this term in the

(55:57):
business space VUCA V, you see avolatile, uncertain, complex and
ambiguous, and that these arethe qualities Yeah, exactly.
Life? Yes. Oh, wow. Yeah. Andthat that is turning up, like
not only are the cycles ofcreation, and the big

(56:20):
technological cyclesaccelerating, but the the
normalized context that we're inis far more uncertain and
ambiguous. So it is a differentskill set to lead through
ambiguity and uncertainty, itjust is. And I think the veil
was ripped off of our eyes inmany ways, because in the

(56:43):
pandemic, of WoW, things are notas stable as we tell ourselves,
they are the this is we don'tknow, we don't know. And I think
having the skill set to be inhealthy relationship to that,
and knowing that anyone can dothat, because you're also
highlighting that, by startingwith this self practice. This

(57:04):
self leadership essentially, isaccessible to anyone, we are all
leaders of our own lives, insome way, because of the values
and principles and the integritythat we show up in and the
choices that we make and how werelate to one another. So this
this skill set of really knowingourselves, and coming back to

(57:25):
what our bodies already know,it's like I remember from
YouTube live program, they you,you all would always say that
the body knows how to die, ifyou just let it do its natural
process. And I think when youget humans together, in the face
of their pain in the face oftheir suffering, we know how to

(57:50):
be compassionate with oneanother, when you just need the
spaces to do that as your asyour highlighting. So yeah, I'm,
I'm blown away byby the view ca. It's like, you
know, what? What is the? What isthe skill set needed for for
vault? What is it volatile,uncertain,

(58:15):
complex and ambiguous andambiguous? Yeah.
What is that? What is the skillset? And for me, in the way I
look at the world, you'retalking is much about a
spiritual skill set, in a sense,a conscious Yes, skill set. The

(58:37):
because every one of those is,is, is present in the dark night
of the soul, you know, thosethose times? When we really
struggle with with what is mylife all about? And why is it so
hard? And all the kind of bigquestions of life? And? Yeah, so

(59:01):
I'm really intrigued now to itmakes me want to understand more
about who are some of the peopleand this is this is a lot of
your work. I mean, you'remodeling this by the kind of
work you're doing. But,you know,
who are the leaders that wethat, that others can model
themselves after that haveenough humility, and curiosity

(59:27):
to develop their own skill setaround those four tricky
adjectives that you described?
And, you know, and what'sinteresting is that just as in
our whole life, you know,we leave a legacy at the end of
ourlife, whether we want to or not,

(59:49):
and we can more consciouslycraft that legacy or not. Right,
and this is some of the workthat doulas do. You know, doulas
accompany people in all kinds ofdiff Ways and help them to
understand the landscape at endof life, you know, just in
parentheses here. Some peoplelistening may not realize that
even though most of us will dieslowly over months and sometimes

(01:00:10):
years, the average amount oftime that someone stays in a
hospice program is only a coupleof weeks, our denial, our
cultural collusion around, wedon't we're trying to stop
dying. When the body is dying,is so profound that even

(01:00:34):
referrals to hospice are oftenat the last minute. So one of
the reasons the doula role hasemerged is because we have weeks
and months and sometimes longer,where we're experiencing very
significant diminishment andlosses after losses of who we
were, and what life was, andincreases in caregiving needs on

(01:00:57):
the people who are caring forus. And there isn't really a
societal support there there isonce you get into hospice, but
not before. So doulas are one ofthe many roles that are people
coming in to say, in a sense.

(01:01:17):
How can I support you to livethe last part of your life
however long it is the way thatyou want to. And one of the
things that doulas can have areally important impact on a
person in their family is tohelp leave a kind of legacy,
something that if you wait tillthe last minute, people often

(01:01:38):
don't have the energy for, forthe thinking for. So a leader of
an organization, or particularlyof an organization that is
struggling and dying, is alsogoing to leave a legacy with all
the people that work there byhow that leader manages
navigates hold space for thedying, and the transformation

(01:02:01):
and even the opportunities. Andthat's part of the legacy. You
know, we leave a legacy all thetime, it doesn't have to just be
at the end of our physical life,how we navigate losses, and how
wholeheartedly we show up inour lives is part of the legacy

(01:02:21):
we live, but we leave behind.
And for some people that's moreimportant than others. But it's
something I think it's somethingreally worth
spending time with, especiallyas a leader within an
organization. You know, it'slike the coaches and
professional sports who say,we're not just here to win, I'm

(01:02:42):
here to shapeyoung men and women
to help them develop their wholeselves, you know, that's a,
that's a leader who has adifferent kind of legacy that
they're leaving, besides stuff.
So the scoreboard, apps, howmany wins and losses? There
were?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If youdidn't, if you're leading in

(01:03:05):
that way, you didn't stampedethe people to get to the metrics
or the Yeah, it's, I, I'm reallyappreciating how, because I see
leaders in this way, too. I seeleaders as space holders, and
leaders as facilitators of ofthese things, and, and that
people have the innate wisdom toreally be in their process to be

(01:03:28):
with themselves. And I thinkthat, especially because talent
seems to be going towards theleaders who are operating in
this way it not only does itfeel safer, psychologically, but
you have less toxic workculture, you're not perpetuating
harm, or sort of systematizingwork trauma in a way, right?

(01:03:53):
Like we get stuck in theseharmful cycles when we when we
skip the people. So I do reallybelieve in the future of
organization as having a leaderwho is more of a space holder
and a facilitator and includingthe processing of of these kinds
of things. So I'm very, veryhopeful in this way. And there's

(01:04:17):
there's this other model that Icould that flashed to my mind as
you're speaking as well, becauseI think, I think when it comes
to big paradigm shifts, andwe're in we're in a meta shift
right now, there's there's ameta crisis, and you can look at
all of the different tippingpoints that we're in right now.
But the the role of hospice, ina paradigm shift at a cultural

(01:04:44):
level is huge. Like you have thetrailblazers, and this is this
is a model by Margaret, MargaretWheatley and her collaborators.
But it's there's this beautifulchart that shows the early
Trailblazers going first andtheir tests thing, they're
rapidly prototyping, they'redoing something different. And
you can't name it yet, you don'thave the language, you don't

(01:05:06):
have the labels yet. But as youprototype, you figure that out,
you start to develop thelanguage for naming how you feel
naming the processes. And thenyou start to have those, those
early embodied years or modelsof the new way, as you're
saying, and you can kind ofpoint to and be like, Wow,
they're really doing itdifferently. I want to go check
that out, I want to go learn bywitnessing someone fully

(01:05:29):
embodied in a new way. Andthere's there's often this
missing role of hospice saying,those who are really mourning
the loss of the previousparadigm, and they maybe they
even know, cognitively. Okay, Iknow, we need to go there. I
know, we need to divest fromfossil fuels. It's a finite

(01:05:52):
resource. I mean, even with themost oil and gas companies in
our sustainability program thatwe've ever had, they're turning
up at the table, they know that,by 2050, their businesses won't
exist. And they need to, theyneed to look at how are we going
to transition to an entirely newmodel of energy, that we're
looking at energy futures insome really powerful ways. But

(01:06:14):
that hospice role even inbusiness, as leaders in this
skill set, feel it just, it'ssinking in deeper layers for me,
as I'm receiving what you'resaying that, that that skill set
in particular, it's, it's,there's a care for our fellow
human in reaching out the handand saying, I'm here with you,

(01:06:34):
I'm holding space for you, it'sokay to feel that pain like
that. That's so normal. And,yes, we're moving toward like,
through the change and towardsthis, this thing, but it's okay
to feel sad that we're leavingthe industry, for example, to
stick with oil and gas thatyou've built an entire career

(01:06:55):
on, that you've been supportingyour whole family with, and all
of the skills that you'velearned up until that point,
have been in an industry thatthat won't exist. I mean,
that's, that's terrifying if wedon't have a different
relationship to change. And, andI think, I think those who are

(01:07:15):
able to do that selfinvestigation, and be friend
death, or be friend change, canactually see the opportunities
sooner. And we see this even indeep recessions, right, like
wealthy people who are scared inthe field for opportunity, like
they're not focused on the lossnecessarily, like maybe they're

(01:07:38):
doing both, but those who canmetabolize through this skill
set will see the opportunity andget to see the new self, the new
business that is about to beborn. So yes, there's a death
process here. But there's also arebirth in the new wave of

(01:08:00):
opportunities, and humanity willalways be in this right like
this. And this cycle doesn't goaway. Yeah.
Right. It's and we say, youknow, it's natural, it's a
natural part of life, it's anatural part of a, you know,
work life cycles. And that wordnature, it's in our nature, to

(01:08:23):
constantly change, right. And itjust sometimes appears bigger
than others. And when someonehas lost through death, someone
dear, dear, dear to them whothey love, in that initial
grief.
You're not ready to hear,although there's going to be a

(01:08:43):
rebirth and it's going to be sogood, you're going to have
opportunities, and you're goingto be able to do things
differently in a differentfreedom that you can't see,
right, we're not ready for that.
There's something that needs tohappen that is to spend some
time in what it feels like tohave to have that floor taken

(01:09:03):
out from under us to feel theabsence of that person to feel
the fear to feel the all therecognition of oh my god, I'm
not going to be able to haveanother Christmas with that
person, or I'm not going to beable to grow old with see my
kids any any of that. So they'rethese, these natural cycles all

(01:09:25):
have little micro phases, right?
And that phase that is so oftenmisunderstood and people don't
know what to do with it is thatinitial feeling of a response to
loss and change, which is I'mdiscombobulated, I'm sad, I'm
angry, I'm fearful or whateverit is, those are all things that
most of us are not realcomfortable being with
ourselves, let alone otherpeople feeling. But if we can do

(01:09:48):
just like you're saying, whichis to make some time take some
time to name it, to normalize itto sit with it. Hmm, my
experience of organizationsgoing through change when we
give voice to that, I know thisis hard, let's just talk about

(01:10:09):
whatever the loss is, we movethrough the change faster. We
do, because we've acknowledged,and we people want to be seen,
we want to be heard, we want tobe able to be real, right. And
you can't skip through this partof a loss without some

(01:10:31):
repercussions. So I reallyappreciate how you're, you're
naming that as part of thatcycle of transformation that
then doesif we're fortunate lead into a
new opportunity. People do Imean,

(01:10:53):
humans are amazing, amazinglyresilient. Yeah. And a loss you
can imagine you live throughmost of us do not all of us
survive traumatic loss, or veryheavy, deep loss, but most of us
do.
And we need some time. And itreally helps to have people with

(01:11:16):
skillful means being able to bewith us in that and see see what
is happening. And to hold thatpicture not to hurry people up
to the opportunity part, and tothe healing part. But I still
hold that picture. Yeah, this ispart of what allows me to be
able to sit with someone anddeep suffering is that I know, I
don't know what it looks like.

(01:11:42):
But I have a sense of whathappens in the healing process
for humans, that there will be anew normal. And so I do hold
that whole picture. When I'msitting with someone. I'm not
just holding thepain. Right? But I can't go
too far I can't hurry peoplethrough or this another

(01:12:02):
wonderful new sociological termcalled spiritual bypassing,
which, you know, is likehurrying people too quickly to
the, to the wisdom that yes,yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, so this
is just a really interestingskill set that most of us don't
don't think about, of how to bewith grief and loss and why it

(01:12:23):
matters, and why it could make adifference for a leader of an
organization. Why it could makea difference to do that for, for
myself.
Yeah, and it's, yeah, I, I know,we're, I know, we're coming to a
close here. But I, I want toreally help hit this point home

(01:12:46):
that you're, that you'realluding to, which is that, I
mean, you mentioned that you getthere faster, actually, if you
slow down. And if you feel it,if you feel the feelings. It's
counterintuitive, because we wemight have the impulse to
suppress it. But it's actuallyfaster to move cyclically

(01:13:06):
through this than it is to plowahead. And when we're not
suppressing, when we're feelinginstead feeling our feelings and
holding the space for thiscollaboratively compassionately
with one another, then you'realso not having those like big
bursts of say, repressed anger,showing up and creating a toxic

(01:13:30):
work culture or forcing yourselfto march towards a direction
that might not actually be inalignment for you. Because
you're too afraid to feel thething. You're avoiding the
suffering. And a friend recentlyshared this metaphor with me
that there's a video out thereon YouTube called be like the

(01:13:51):
bison. And evidently, bison areone of the only animals that
when a snowstorm is coming, theyturn towards the storm because
they know that the fastest pathis through it. That's great.
Yeah. Oh, that's great.
Yeah, so I've been sitting I'vebeen sitting with that so So

(01:14:12):
Jan, what I really am hearingand what you're saying is that
it might be counterintuitive toto build these skill sets, but
it is actually strategic butbecause we get there faster, and
we get to a more aligned pointthan we might have otherwise
because we're not living in thatdistortion or in that avoidance

(01:14:35):
or in that fear or distraction.
It's it's a much clearer Yeah,reality that we're actually
that's our whole humaneness so Ijust, and that's what I think,
you know, it's like it, it canbe when you say you get there
faster, which is I think what Isaid also, it's not

(01:14:57):
chronological time,I don't think either Thinking
what we're getting to faster isthe clarity you just referred
to, is less encumbered with thiscollected layers of grief that
if we are just like soldieringon and not dealing with our

(01:15:17):
feelings, we have thisaccumulated grief over over a
lifetime. And that's what we'redragging with us. So you could
get faster in chronological timethere, but the you that is
getting thereis more burdened, is
less clear, is less able to showup for yourself and for others.

(01:15:41):
So initially, that may looklike, Oh, that's good, you got
there faster. But the you that'sthere is, is, is not a very
whole person. Yeah. And we cancover a lot of this for a long
time. You know, we can, we'reamazing ly resilient. But at

(01:16:02):
some point, this habit andpattern of shoving down hard
feelings and not dealing withthem is going to kick us in the
butt. And most of us have allkinds of if you've lived long
enough, you have experiences inyour own life where you see see
that that that that's true. Andit is counterintuitive,
particularly in our NorthAmerican culture that does not

(01:16:25):
value this kindof work. Yeah, that's an
important distinction. Yeah.
And so in that sense, it iscounterintuitive, why would I go
into pain. And that's one of thenumber one reasons in my working
with people at end of life orpeople working, living with
grief, feeling grief, the numberone reason why people don't want

(01:16:45):
to do this investigation,exploration work, whatever you
want to call it, of grief work,is because of this belief that
if I go there, I'm never gettingout.
Hmm. And that is such astrong cultural myth. And I do
believe it's a myth. And I dobelieve it's unique to certain

(01:17:06):
cultures, I think many parts ofthe world don't have that same
response to grief. There's moreof an understanding of
collective grieving, there'smore of an understanding of the
place of grief, a cut adifferent context. But if you've
grown up in this hyper positiveculture that many of us have

(01:17:29):
here, where we don't talk aboutthose things. Like how does that
equip me then when I justnecessarily will be going
through those hard times of mylife? It's just though is this
life? How am I equipped to, to,to deal with, to deal with the
harder emotions. And so thiscultural belief that don't go

(01:17:53):
there, because that's adangerous place? Right,
you won't get out of it.
The counterintuitive part isthat, you know, it's like in the
fairy tale, the dark forest, youknow, that in the hero's
journey, it's through the darkforest that I get to the other
side, now, all kinds of stuffhappens in that dark forest. So

(01:18:15):
let's not pretend like it'scomfortable, right? It can rock
your world. It takes us right upto some of the hardest parts,
but but at least to me and myunderstanding of what it means
to be human.
That's part of the deal.
It's part of the deal. And Iwant to, even if it's

(01:18:36):
uncomfortable to as much as Ican muster, I want to know that
World War I want to know thelandscape of uncertainty and,
and fear. I want to ask myselfquestions of what do I believe
happens when I die? I want toknow more about grief and loss
and, and what it means tometabolize grief and get the

(01:18:59):
benefit nourishment from it andget rid of the toxic part. I
don't need you know, just likewe metabolize food. I want to
know that because it seemspretty central to peace of mind,
peace of heart, understanding ofmy meaning and purpose here, I
don't see a way into all thosegood things. Mine and peace, a

(01:19:23):
heart and a sense that I'mliving in alignment, and I have
a purpose. I don't know howto live in that world without
having torepeatedly apparently experience
so many losses, you know, andthe other piece of that that to
me is so interesting is that notonly do these practices of loss
and grief, helped me to staymore and more in that play those

(01:19:49):
places of well being andspiritual rest and alignment,
but they're also beautifulpractices for the ACT. To end of
my life, physical end of mylife, which which still, even
though I've beenaround it all these years is

(01:20:10):
can shake me to my core.
Sometimes, when I think aboutit, I may have normalized a
conversation and, and have morea deeper understanding of the
natural order of things and howthe body dies. But when it's my
time, I don't want my deathbedto be the place where I first
engage with all these deepthings. Yeah, so it serves us in

(01:20:30):
the now and it will serve us inthe them to, to live these
practices and to talk about itwith people and to normalize the
talking of it.
Yeah, beautifullysaid, wow, Jim, I can I can
think of no better place toperhaps, and then to leave folks

(01:20:55):
with that, that the practice ofdeath, it's, it is so serving in
in that way. And I just from thebottom of my heart, thank you so
much for bringing your wisdom,the wisdom of your world and the
work that you do intersectingit, processing this together and

(01:21:17):
so that we can sort of COtranslate this into this other
world of business. I'm soappreciative that the wisdom
from your world helps that servethe business world so so much,
especially at these times. Sothank you for wonderful for
being here. Well, thankyou for seeing that intersection
in your own envisioning and yourwillingness to, to go there. And

(01:21:41):
I want to say, you know, greatgratitude to this conversation
and great gratitude for all thepeople who have been teachers
for me and all these years. Youknow, wisdom teachers, people
who through their lives andtheir legacy of how they lived
and died, have taught me, youknow, I have great gratitude

(01:22:03):
for, for what that has broughtto me, and it's so beautiful to
be able to share it with you inthis conversation. Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Okay,

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The Death of a Business Paradigm | Janet Booth | Ep. 20

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Death of a Business Paradigm | Janet Booth | Ep. 20