August 27, 2025 • 15 mins
Escaping the Drama Triangle: Transform Conflict into Empowerment (Living Lucky® Podcast)
Ever felt trapped in a cycle of blame, victimhood, and rescue? 😫 In this mind-opening Living Lucky® Podcast episode, Jason and Jana Banana use a hilarious dinner party mishap to break down the Karpman Drama Triangle, a psychological model that explains nearly every conflict. You'll never see arguments the same way again!
This is a powerful masterclass in personal development and self-help, filled with "nuggets of wisdom" to help you transform your relationships:
- Identify Your Role: Recognize the three unconscious roles you play in conflict—Victim, Persecutor, and Rescuer. Learn how even a simple joke can trigger this complex dynamic in real time.
- The Downward Spiral: Understand how the Drama Triangle is contagious and self-perpetuating, creating a "snowball effect" of reactivity that prevents true resolution.
- From Drama to Empowerment: Discover the secret to breaking the cycle. Learn how to transform the Victim into a Creator, the Persecutor into a Challenger, and the Rescuer into a Coach. This simple mindset shift is the key to an upward spiral of growth.
- Internal Triangles: Realize that these patterns aren't just external. We often create them in our own minds through negative self-talk, ganging up on ourselves with internal blame and "what-if" scenarios.
- Awareness is the First Step: The most powerful tool for change is self-awareness. By simply recognizing which role you're playing, you can consciously choose a healthier, more empowering path.
Stop getting drained by unnecessary conflict. This episode will equip you with the emotional intelligence and tools to create healthier relationships and finally escape the drama.
How to break the drama triangle cycle. Karpman Drama Triangle explained. What are the three roles in conflict? How to stop being a victim. Transforming drama into empowerment. How to improve communication in relationships. Recognizing unconscious conflict patterns. The difference between a rescuer and a coach. What is the role of a challenger in an argument? What is the Karpman Drama Triangle? What are the three roles of the drama triangle? How do I stop being a victim in my relationships? How can I resolve conflicts without drama? H
For mind-blowing inspirational content that we implement ourselves, join us by subscribing and connecting to our private community.
Thanks for joining us.
CONNECT with us in our PRIVATE COMMUNITY
*** The Living Lucky Community is experiencing what it feels like to create a life of inspiration where dreams come true. Check it out HERE *** or at https://www.startlivinglucky.com/sendusyourdreams
!!! SEND US A MESSAGE: Are you ready to unlock your path to a more inspired life where you're Living Lucky®? Email me directly and let's chart your course toward realizing your dreams and creating a life that fills you with daily inspiration.
Email Jason Shelfer HERE
The 4 pillars of Living Lucky
Believe in yourself
Believe in the people around you
Believe in your circumstances and
Believe that God is working through you, for you, and always conspiring in your favor.
*Previously Recorded
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jana Shelfer (00:00):
Are you ready to create a life you crave?
Let's spin that doom loop ofnegativity into an upward
success cycle and start LivingLucky®.
Jason Shelfer (00:14):
Good morning.
Jana Shelfer (00:15):
I'm Jana, I'm Jason and we are Living Lucky®.
You are too.
Jason made a six-year-old crylast night at our dinner party.
Jason Shelfer (00:24):
Yay, now she's Living Lucky®.
Jana Shelfer (00:26):
Oh, it was so embarrassing.
Jason Shelfer (00:30):
Oh, it was nothing.
Jana Shelfer (00:32):
We went to this-.
Jason Shelfer (00:33):
Six-year-olds love to cry.
Jana Shelfer (00:35):
We went to this dinner party and there were a
lot of people there.
Jason and I were among the lastones to leave.
It happens, and as we leave,jason with his sense of humor.
Jason Shelfer (00:49):
It's not a tumor.
Jana Shelfer (00:51):
Which our foreign exchange student used to call it
a sense of tumor, because itwasn't always funny.
He says oh my gosh, I love thisdog so much.
Lucy was the dog.
I love this dog so much.
I'm just going to take it withme.
I'm just going to take it homewith me.
Is was the dog.
I love this dog so much.
I'm just going to take it withme, I'm just going to take it
home with me.
Jason Shelfer (01:07):
Is this the dog we're supposed to take home with
us?
Jana Shelfer (01:10):
No, he says this jokingly, to be complimentary to
the host, to be a little.
Jason Shelfer (01:17):
The dog was adorable and cute and well
behaved.
Jana Shelfer (01:21):
Except Delaney.
The six year old busts outcrying.
She goes over and grabs herbest friend, her dog Lucy Snoopy
, and she's like get this meanman out of our house.
Jason Shelfer (01:35):
You can't have my dog.
Why would he want to take mydog?
Jana Shelfer (01:39):
This is my dog.
People can't just walk into ourhouse and take my dog.
So she starts having a panicattack, tantrum, and then, of
course, her father comes in tobe her hero and is like I'm
going to keep you safe, honey.
Nobody's going to take your dog.
(02:03):
Nobody's taking Lucy.
In the meantime, Barb, who wasanother guest that was one of
the last to leave.
She turns and is like what justhappened.
Why would you make asix-year-old cry?
Jason Shelfer (02:13):
So now, all of a sudden, what did you say to the
six-year-old Jason?
She's looking at.
Jana Shelfer (02:17):
Jason like how dare you?
And then I get a littleoffended.
I'm like, well, he was justbeing funny.
Jason Shelfer (02:24):
Mind your business Barb Right.
Jana Shelfer (02:26):
So now, all of a sudden, I've become the either
rescuer or the victim in thissituation.
Jason Shelfer (02:34):
Victim number two .
Victim from the secondperpetrator.
I'm like offended.
Jana Shelfer (02:37):
I'm like, wait a minute.
He didn't do this on purposeand we finally just kind of
turned around and snuck out.
We said goodbye.
Jason Shelfer (02:46):
Irish goodbye.
Yeah, then we kind of went outthe Irish back door.
Jana Shelfer (02:50):
We already said goodbye like three times for
trying to get out, but peoplekeep asking questions and like
holding us.
What I have just described toyou is something that you may
not realize goes on every day inyour life In different parts
and different pieces of the day.
And once you are aware of thisdynamic, this recipe, you will
(03:12):
say, oh my gosh, I did notrealize this was happening and I
did not realize that I boughtinto this.
Jason Shelfer (03:22):
And I keep saying I'll sign up for that role.
Jana Shelfer (03:25):
It's called the Karpman Drama Triangle and it is
a theory in psychology and itcame up I mean, this was
developed back in like 1968 by apsychologist.
His last name was KarpmanK-A-R-P-M-A-N.
If you want to do more researchon it.
(03:45):
And what he came up with is weare always creating these little
drama triangles in our life andif you start watching movies
with this knowledge in your head, you are going to say, oh my
gosh, I see it, I see it.
This is the formula that'shappening.
Jason Shelfer (04:04):
Little relationship triangles.
Jana Shelfer (04:07):
Something happens, there's a circumstance that
happens, and in thiscircumstance there is usually a
persecutor and a victim.
Now, in this particular example, Jason, just being funny, was
like I'm going to take this doghome with me.
And then Delaney is now thevictim.
(04:31):
You're stealing my dog.
Oh my gosh, Somebody's cominginto our house and stealing our
dog.
Jason Shelfer (04:36):
He's ruining my life.
Jana Shelfer (04:39):
And then what happens is there's usually if
there's a victim somewhere thatwill create a hero.
Jason Shelfer (04:44):
What happens?
Jana Shelfer (04:45):
is there's usually .
If there's a victim somewhere,that will create a hero.
There's usually a hero thatcomes in and tries to rescue the
situation, which, in this case,was the father.
It was daddy that came in andsaid honey, nobody's going to
take your dog.
He lifts her up and he'scoddling her and, of course,
holding the dog in the otherhand, like I'm gonna keep you
(05:07):
safe so here I come to save theday, every girl's little dream.
All of a sudden daddy is thehero right now.
In the meantime, once thistriangle starts, then it kind of
starts taking on a whole littlelife of its own and creating
other little triangles.
Because what happens is then.
(05:29):
An outsider, which was Barb,doesn't understand the full
scenario here.
So she, from an outsideperspective sees it and she's
like how dare you make asix-year-old cry.
And she's looking at Jason withthis disdain face you idiot,
you a-hole, and now, all of asudden, without knowing it, Barb
(05:55):
has become the persecutor.
And now I've become the victimand Jason has become the victim,
and then I step in.
Jason Shelfer (06:03):
But I don't sign up for victimology.
Jana Shelfer (06:06):
I know, I know, I know, but for the sake of this
podcast, yeah, that's typicallythe way that works.
So now, all of a sudden, jasonis the victim in this scenario,
and so then I step in to defendhim in a way Like oh he didn't
do it on purpose.
He's just a joke.
Jason Shelfer (06:25):
He loves the dog.
We all love the dog.
It's a great.
Some would say it's a great dog.
I know you sound like Trump.
Some would say it's the bestdog in the world.
Jana Shelfer (06:39):
Anyway.
So do you see how this allworks?
And then, of course, we get inour car and now, all of a sudden
, I feel offended in a way thatI'm like wait a minute, like why
was she blaming you?
I mean, I understand why shewas blaming Jason, but it just
(06:59):
it becomes this big triangle andwe all start taking on these
roles.
Yeah, and like I said, when youstart realizing that this is
happening not only in your life,it's happening in every story,
every movie, every book.
Jason Shelfer (07:14):
there is a Karpman drama triangle and one
of the weird things is is we getto kind of decide how deeply or
how pronounced we want each ofthe characters to be.
Yes, you know what I'm saying.
Yes, like, we get to say, no,I'm going to be the world's best
victim, or I'm going to be theworld's most heroic hero or
(07:38):
rescuer, you know, or I'm justgoing to be someone that kind of
just steps in and kind ofguides people Trump's voice
because, whatever you feel aboutpolitics, trump understands
this drama triangle and he isvery good at turning the victim
(08:00):
role into the hero role.
Oh yeah.
Jana Shelfer (08:04):
He's very good at that, In fact if Delaney would
have said you know what, If youwould like to take my dog home,
then I'll come and take your dog.
Jason Shelfer (08:16):
I'll come take your dog and your house and your
car.
Jana Shelfer (08:20):
No, she would have said you know what my dog is so
playful.
Why don't you take her for aday and then return her?
Now, all of a sudden, she wouldhave been the hero and we all
would have been like, oh, that'sso adorable.
Jason Shelfer (08:30):
But she's six, she's learning these things,
she's six years old she's stillsinging that song about don't
take my beautiful things.
Jana Shelfer (08:38):
So the reason I bring up this example which it
is a lighthearted and funexample is because we can either
live in this drama triangle andwe don't even realize it is
contagious and it starts takingon a life of its own and we all
start adjusting these roles.
But you can break the cycle,and that was what I was trying
(09:00):
to describe when I said we canchoose how we react in these
circumstances and it will breakthe cycle.
Jason Shelfer (09:08):
If you recognize it, you have to recognize it
first.
Then you get to choose to breakthe cycle.
Jana Shelfer (09:13):
For example, the rescuer hero character could
show up as maybe a coach.
Jason Shelfer (09:23):
That's powerful and all of a sudden, that's more
empowering right.
Jana Shelfer (09:27):
Because now it's like, hey, you know what.
This just happened.
You can get through this.
How does this make you feelwhat's happening here and how
can we choose to?
Jason Shelfer (09:36):
react differently .
What if he meant somethingdifferent by that?
What if he meant he loves yourdog?
You've got such a wonderful doghere that he would like to have
something like that for himself, but he's not going to take
your dog.
Jana Shelfer (09:47):
The persecutor role, which is the one you don't
even realize you're doing itLike.
Jason had no intention of beingthe persecutor in this
situation.
But if you think of thepersecutor as the creator, now
all of a sudden that's a littlemore powering.
(10:07):
Because Jason, when we thinkabout that, jason can say oh my
gosh, I have the power to make asix year old cry.
I can also make.
I also have the power to make asix year old cry I can also
make.
I also have the power to make asix year old laugh.
Jason Shelfer (10:19):
Right.
So that, and that's the wholething is, I was the creator in
that, because I started thecreation of the triangle.
Jana Shelfer (10:27):
You did.
Jason Shelfer (10:29):
Yeah.
So looking at, okay, if Icreated this triangle, how might
I create a different version ofit?
That's that looks more powerfuland dynamic?
Jana Shelfer (10:41):
So the way, the way to change the label from
persecutor to a more empoweringcreator is to call the
persecutor the challenger thechallenger.
Hey, how would you react if Itook your dog home with me?
Now you've challenged.
(11:03):
It's just a differentconnotation in communication,
but it will change the way weexperience the world.
Jason Shelfer (11:11):
Very nice.
Jana Shelfer (11:12):
Right.
Jason Shelfer (11:13):
Yeah, and then all of a sudden, the victim now
becomes the world.
Jana Shelfer (11:14):
Very nice, right, yeah?
And then, all of a sudden, thevictim now becomes the creator
of all of this.
Okay, yeah, you know what?
Maybe my reaction is puttingenergy into how other people
will react.
Jason Shelfer (11:28):
Yes.
Jana Shelfer (11:28):
And it's almost becoming proactive instead of
reactive 100%.
Okay, so just to like put thisall in a little nugget In your
life.
You may not know this and I maybe giving you information that
you're going to be like whoa,who knew this was happening in
my life?
Jason Shelfer (11:47):
And they'd be like this is way too much.
Jana Shelfer (11:50):
But there's always three characters in a situation
, in a story, in any kind ofdrama that happens and you might
be like, well, yeah, but youknow what, there's only two
characters.
When my husband and I get in afight, there's two characters.
Well, when your husband and youget in a fight, the way this
drama triangle starts is youleave the conversation or the
(12:16):
argument feeling like you havebeen wronged in some way.
So then you call your mom andsay, oh my God, I can't believe
what my husband did.
Well, now she is like oh my God, my son-in-law and it creates
this triangle.
Jason Shelfer (12:36):
Or we do it in our own mind.
We do it in our own minds andyou will listen to your own
voice in your minds going Ishould have.
And like you will hear thatvoice, you'll be like I feel
like a victim.
I feel like I just gotmanhandled by my wife, and then
you will hear that voice goingoh, you should have done this.
(12:57):
She never does that.
Blah, blah, blah.
Like you'll hear that voicecome in.
And now you've just createdthis second narrative in your
head of the hero and the victimthat you're ganging up, building
up this evidence wall againstyour wife or your spouse or
whoever it is, and then the nexttime you see them, you'll dump
(13:18):
that on your significant other.
Jana Shelfer (13:19):
So the three roles there is a victim, there's a
persecutor and a victim.
So those are the two.
That's where it starts thepersecutor and the victim.
And then the third role thatcomes in is the hero victim.
And then the third role thatcomes in is the hero, and the
hero many times will step in andthen trying to rescue.
(13:40):
And when they do that, then allof a sudden now the persecutor
becomes the victim and it justis an exacerbating snowball, is
what it is and you'll recognizethis like if it's a two-person
conversation or a two-personincident.
Jason Shelfer (13:58):
You'll recognize when you're doing it like, let's
just say, we're having anargument together and I will
consider myself the victim inthat.
And then I go off and in myhead I'll start.
I'll create my hero in my head,yeah, so that it throws this
blanket over you and createsokay, now it empowers me to say
(14:24):
I'm not going to put up withthat.
Does that make sense?
Jana Shelfer (14:28):
Okay, so I'm just going to rephrase what Jason
just said.
There is a way to reframeeverything that's happening so
that it is more empowering forus as we show up.
The victim becomes the creator,and the rescuer becomes the
coach, and all three of thoseroles now will put you in an
(15:03):
upward that's a healthy way togo through this change instead
of the doom loop so big it willput you in a more empowering,
where you're not only empoweringyourself, you're empowering
everyone else around you.
Jason Shelfer (15:16):
Yeah, that's the healthiest way to get out of
that cycle.
Jana Shelfer (15:21):
It's a little complicated to explain.
I wish I had Visuals.
Visuals so that I could reallyshow you.
But once you're aware of this,it will change your life.
Thanks for joining us.
Keep Living Lucky®, bye-bye.
Once you're aware of this, itwill change your life.
Jason Shelfer (15:34):
Thanks for joining us Keep Living Lucky®.
Jana Shelfer (15:40):
Bye-bye.
If the idea of Living Lucky®appeals to you, visit us at www.
LivingLucky.
com.
Are you ready to create a life you crave?
Let's spin that doom loop ofnegativity into an upward
success cycle and start LivingLucky®.
Jason Shelfer (00:14):
Good morning.
Jana Shelfer (00:15):
I'm Jana, I'm Jason and we are Living Lucky®.
You are too.
Jason made a six-year-old crylast night at our dinner party.
Jason Shelfer (00:24):
Yay, now she's Living Lucky®.
Jana Shelfer (00:26):
Oh, it was so embarrassing.
Jason Shelfer (00:30):
Oh, it was nothing.
Jana Shelfer (00:32):
We went to this-.
Jason Shelfer (00:33):
Six-year-olds love to cry.
Jana Shelfer (00:35):
We went to this dinner party and there were a
lot of people there.
Jason and I were among the lastones to leave.
It happens, and as we leave,jason with his sense of humor.
Jason Shelfer (00:49):
It's not a tumor.
Jana Shelfer (00:51):
Which our foreign exchange student used to call it
a sense of tumor, because itwasn't always funny.
He says oh my gosh, I love thisdog so much.
Lucy was the dog.
I love this dog so much.
I'm just going to take it withme.
I'm just going to take it homewith me.
Is was the dog.
I love this dog so much.
I'm just going to take it withme, I'm just going to take it
home with me.
Jason Shelfer (01:07):
Is this the dog we're supposed to take home with
us?
Jana Shelfer (01:10):
No, he says this jokingly, to be complimentary to
the host, to be a little.
Jason Shelfer (01:17):
The dog was adorable and cute and well
behaved.
Jana Shelfer (01:21):
Except Delaney.
The six year old busts outcrying.
She goes over and grabs herbest friend, her dog Lucy Snoopy
, and she's like get this meanman out of our house.
Jason Shelfer (01:35):
You can't have my dog.
Why would he want to take mydog?
Jana Shelfer (01:39):
This is my dog.
People can't just walk into ourhouse and take my dog.
So she starts having a panicattack, tantrum, and then, of
course, her father comes in tobe her hero and is like I'm
going to keep you safe, honey.
Nobody's going to take your dog.
(02:03):
Nobody's taking Lucy.
In the meantime, Barb, who wasanother guest that was one of
the last to leave.
She turns and is like what justhappened.
Why would you make asix-year-old cry?
Jason Shelfer (02:13):
So now, all of a sudden, what did you say to the
six-year-old Jason?
She's looking at.
Jana Shelfer (02:17):
Jason like how dare you?
And then I get a littleoffended.
I'm like, well, he was justbeing funny.
Jason Shelfer (02:24):
Mind your business Barb Right.
Jana Shelfer (02:26):
So now, all of a sudden, I've become the either
rescuer or the victim in thissituation.
Jason Shelfer (02:34):
Victim number two .
Victim from the secondperpetrator.
I'm like offended.
Jana Shelfer (02:37):
I'm like, wait a minute.
He didn't do this on purposeand we finally just kind of
turned around and snuck out.
We said goodbye.
Jason Shelfer (02:46):
Irish goodbye.
Yeah, then we kind of went outthe Irish back door.
Jana Shelfer (02:50):
We already said goodbye like three times for
trying to get out, but peoplekeep asking questions and like
holding us.
What I have just described toyou is something that you may
not realize goes on every day inyour life In different parts
and different pieces of the day.
And once you are aware of thisdynamic, this recipe, you will
(03:12):
say, oh my gosh, I did notrealize this was happening and I
did not realize that I boughtinto this.
Jason Shelfer (03:22):
And I keep saying I'll sign up for that role.
Jana Shelfer (03:25):
It's called the Karpman Drama Triangle and it is
a theory in psychology and itcame up I mean, this was
developed back in like 1968 by apsychologist.
His last name was KarpmanK-A-R-P-M-A-N.
If you want to do more researchon it.
(03:45):
And what he came up with is weare always creating these little
drama triangles in our life andif you start watching movies
with this knowledge in your head, you are going to say, oh my
gosh, I see it, I see it.
This is the formula that'shappening.
Jason Shelfer (04:04):
Little relationship triangles.
Jana Shelfer (04:07):
Something happens, there's a circumstance that
happens, and in thiscircumstance there is usually a
persecutor and a victim.
Now, in this particular example, Jason, just being funny, was
like I'm going to take this doghome with me.
And then Delaney is now thevictim.
(04:31):
You're stealing my dog.
Oh my gosh, Somebody's cominginto our house and stealing our
dog.
Jason Shelfer (04:36):
He's ruining my life.
Jana Shelfer (04:39):
And then what happens is there's usually if
there's a victim somewhere thatwill create a hero.
Jason Shelfer (04:44):
What happens?
Jana Shelfer (04:45):
is there's usually .
If there's a victim somewhere,that will create a hero.
There's usually a hero thatcomes in and tries to rescue the
situation, which, in this case,was the father.
It was daddy that came in andsaid honey, nobody's going to
take your dog.
He lifts her up and he'scoddling her and, of course,
holding the dog in the otherhand, like I'm gonna keep you
(05:07):
safe so here I come to save theday, every girl's little dream.
All of a sudden daddy is thehero right now.
In the meantime, once thistriangle starts, then it kind of
starts taking on a whole littlelife of its own and creating
other little triangles.
Because what happens is then.
(05:29):
An outsider, which was Barb,doesn't understand the full
scenario here.
So she, from an outsideperspective sees it and she's
like how dare you make asix-year-old cry.
And she's looking at Jason withthis disdain face you idiot,
you a-hole, and now, all of asudden, without knowing it, Barb
(05:55):
has become the persecutor.
And now I've become the victimand Jason has become the victim,
and then I step in.
Jason Shelfer (06:03):
But I don't sign up for victimology.
Jana Shelfer (06:06):
I know, I know, I know, but for the sake of this
podcast, yeah, that's typicallythe way that works.
So now, all of a sudden, jasonis the victim in this scenario,
and so then I step in to defendhim in a way Like oh he didn't
do it on purpose.
He's just a joke.
Jason Shelfer (06:25):
He loves the dog.
We all love the dog.
It's a great.
Some would say it's a great dog.
I know you sound like Trump.
Some would say it's the bestdog in the world.
Jana Shelfer (06:39):
Anyway.
So do you see how this allworks?
And then, of course, we get inour car and now, all of a sudden
, I feel offended in a way thatI'm like wait a minute, like why
was she blaming you?
I mean, I understand why shewas blaming Jason, but it just
(06:59):
it becomes this big triangle andwe all start taking on these
roles.
Yeah, and like I said, when youstart realizing that this is
happening not only in your life,it's happening in every story,
every movie, every book.
Jason Shelfer (07:14):
there is a Karpman drama triangle and one
of the weird things is is we getto kind of decide how deeply or
how pronounced we want each ofthe characters to be.
Yes, you know what I'm saying.
Yes, like, we get to say, no,I'm going to be the world's best
victim, or I'm going to be theworld's most heroic hero or
(07:38):
rescuer, you know, or I'm justgoing to be someone that kind of
just steps in and kind ofguides people Trump's voice
because, whatever you feel aboutpolitics, trump understands
this drama triangle and he isvery good at turning the victim
(08:00):
role into the hero role.
Oh yeah.
Jana Shelfer (08:04):
He's very good at that, In fact if Delaney would
have said you know what, If youwould like to take my dog home,
then I'll come and take your dog.
Jason Shelfer (08:16):
I'll come take your dog and your house and your
car.
Jana Shelfer (08:20):
No, she would have said you know what my dog is so
playful.
Why don't you take her for aday and then return her?
Now, all of a sudden, she wouldhave been the hero and we all
would have been like, oh, that'sso adorable.
Jason Shelfer (08:30):
But she's six, she's learning these things,
she's six years old she's stillsinging that song about don't
take my beautiful things.
Jana Shelfer (08:38):
So the reason I bring up this example which it
is a lighthearted and funexample is because we can either
live in this drama triangle andwe don't even realize it is
contagious and it starts takingon a life of its own and we all
start adjusting these roles.
But you can break the cycle,and that was what I was trying
(09:00):
to describe when I said we canchoose how we react in these
circumstances and it will breakthe cycle.
Jason Shelfer (09:08):
If you recognize it, you have to recognize it
first.
Then you get to choose to breakthe cycle.
Jana Shelfer (09:13):
For example, the rescuer hero character could
show up as maybe a coach.
Jason Shelfer (09:23):
That's powerful and all of a sudden, that's more
empowering right.
Jana Shelfer (09:27):
Because now it's like, hey, you know what.
This just happened.
You can get through this.
How does this make you feelwhat's happening here and how
can we choose to?
Jason Shelfer (09:36):
react differently .
What if he meant somethingdifferent by that?
What if he meant he loves yourdog?
You've got such a wonderful doghere that he would like to have
something like that for himself, but he's not going to take
your dog.
Jana Shelfer (09:47):
The persecutor role, which is the one you don't
even realize you're doing itLike.
Jason had no intention of beingthe persecutor in this
situation.
But if you think of thepersecutor as the creator, now
all of a sudden that's a littlemore powering.
(10:07):
Because Jason, when we thinkabout that, jason can say oh my
gosh, I have the power to make asix year old cry.
I can also make.
I also have the power to make asix year old cry I can also
make.
I also have the power to make asix year old laugh.
Jason Shelfer (10:19):
Right.
So that, and that's the wholething is, I was the creator in
that, because I started thecreation of the triangle.
Jana Shelfer (10:27):
You did.
Jason Shelfer (10:29):
Yeah.
So looking at, okay, if Icreated this triangle, how might
I create a different version ofit?
That's that looks more powerfuland dynamic?
Jana Shelfer (10:41):
So the way, the way to change the label from
persecutor to a more empoweringcreator is to call the
persecutor the challenger thechallenger.
Hey, how would you react if Itook your dog home with me?
Now you've challenged.
(11:03):
It's just a differentconnotation in communication,
but it will change the way weexperience the world.
Jason Shelfer (11:11):
Very nice.
Jana Shelfer (11:12):
Right.
Jason Shelfer (11:13):
Yeah, and then all of a sudden, the victim now
becomes the world.
Jana Shelfer (11:14):
Very nice, right, yeah?
And then, all of a sudden, thevictim now becomes the creator
of all of this.
Okay, yeah, you know what?
Maybe my reaction is puttingenergy into how other people
will react.
Jason Shelfer (11:28):
Yes.
Jana Shelfer (11:28):
And it's almost becoming proactive instead of
reactive 100%.
Okay, so just to like put thisall in a little nugget In your
life.
You may not know this and I maybe giving you information that
you're going to be like whoa,who knew this was happening in
my life?
Jason Shelfer (11:47):
And they'd be like this is way too much.
Jana Shelfer (11:50):
But there's always three characters in a situation
, in a story, in any kind ofdrama that happens and you might
be like, well, yeah, but youknow what, there's only two
characters.
When my husband and I get in afight, there's two characters.
Well, when your husband and youget in a fight, the way this
drama triangle starts is youleave the conversation or the
(12:16):
argument feeling like you havebeen wronged in some way.
So then you call your mom andsay, oh my God, I can't believe
what my husband did.
Well, now she is like oh my God, my son-in-law and it creates
this triangle.
Jason Shelfer (12:36):
Or we do it in our own mind.
We do it in our own minds andyou will listen to your own
voice in your minds going Ishould have.
And like you will hear thatvoice, you'll be like I feel
like a victim.
I feel like I just gotmanhandled by my wife, and then
you will hear that voice goingoh, you should have done this.
(12:57):
She never does that.
Blah, blah, blah.
Like you'll hear that voicecome in.
And now you've just createdthis second narrative in your
head of the hero and the victimthat you're ganging up, building
up this evidence wall againstyour wife or your spouse or
whoever it is, and then the nexttime you see them, you'll dump
(13:18):
that on your significant other.
Jana Shelfer (13:19):
So the three roles there is a victim, there's a
persecutor and a victim.
So those are the two.
That's where it starts thepersecutor and the victim.
And then the third role thatcomes in is the hero victim.
And then the third role thatcomes in is the hero, and the
hero many times will step in andthen trying to rescue.
(13:40):
And when they do that, then allof a sudden now the persecutor
becomes the victim and it justis an exacerbating snowball, is
what it is and you'll recognizethis like if it's a two-person
conversation or a two-personincident.
Jason Shelfer (13:58):
You'll recognize when you're doing it like, let's
just say, we're having anargument together and I will
consider myself the victim inthat.
And then I go off and in myhead I'll start.
I'll create my hero in my head,yeah, so that it throws this
blanket over you and createsokay, now it empowers me to say
(14:24):
I'm not going to put up withthat.
Does that make sense?
Jana Shelfer (14:28):
Okay, so I'm just going to rephrase what Jason
just said.
There is a way to reframeeverything that's happening so
that it is more empowering forus as we show up.
The victim becomes the creator,and the rescuer becomes the
coach, and all three of thoseroles now will put you in an
(15:03):
upward that's a healthy way togo through this change instead
of the doom loop so big it willput you in a more empowering,
where you're not only empoweringyourself, you're empowering
everyone else around you.
Jason Shelfer (15:16):
Yeah, that's the healthiest way to get out of
that cycle.
Jana Shelfer (15:21):
It's a little complicated to explain.
I wish I had Visuals.
Visuals so that I could reallyshow you.
But once you're aware of this,it will change your life.
Thanks for joining us.
Keep Living Lucky®, bye-bye.
Once you're aware of this, itwill change your life.
Jason Shelfer (15:34):
Thanks for joining us Keep Living Lucky®.
Jana Shelfer (15:40):
Bye-bye.
If the idea of Living Lucky®appeals to you, visit us at www.
LivingLucky.
com.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.