August 28, 2025 • 54 mins
"Finding yourself is a lie perpetrated by our consumerist culture." With this provocative statement, two friends – a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist – launch into a fascinating exploration of identity, authenticity, and the forces that shape our understanding of self.
The conversation challenges a concept many of us take for granted: that somewhere within us exists a "true self" waiting to be discovered. But what if this idea is merely a clever marketing strategy? The friends examine how advertising campaigns reduce us to avatars and sell us identities through products – from cars marketed not for their features but for the lifestyle they represent, to the cultural trope of abandoning responsibility to "follow your passion."
As they navigate their different perspectives, they question whether our ancestors even needed to "find themselves." In traditional communities, identity was intrinsically tied to one's role in the collective – no soul-searching required. Has our individualistic society created a vacuum that marketers eagerly fill with promises of self-fulfillment through consumption?
Drawing on Carl Jung's concept of individuation and Jordan Peterson's emphasis on responsibility as the source of meaning, they differentiate between authentic self-discovery and its commercialized counterfeit. True fulfillment, they suggest, might come not from hedonistic pleasure but from shouldering responsibility and finding purpose within community.
By the conversation's end, they reach surprising common ground: while there may be truth to the concept of an authentic self, our consumerist culture has hijacked this natural human journey. The most meaningful expression of identity might come not from what we consume but from what we contribute.
Tune in to this thought-provoking episode that will have you questioning the narratives about identity you've absorbed without realizing it. Share with friends who enjoy conversations that challenge conventional wisdom and explore the deeper currents shaping our culture and consciousness.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Does it feel like every part of your life is
divided, Every scenario, everyenvironment, your church, your
school, your work, your friends,left right, conservative,
liberal, religious, secular?
It seems you always have totake a side.
This is a conversation betweena progressive Christian and a
conservative atheist who happento be great friends.
(00:23):
Welcome to Living on CommonGround.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Do you think if we met today, we would still be
friends?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I don't know but we're friends now.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
A mob is no less a mob because they are with him,
man.
So what?
We won a few games and y'allfools think that's something.
Man, that ain't nothing, y'all.
And you know what else?
We ain't nothing either.
Yeah, we came together in camp,cool.
But then we're right back hereand the world tells us that they
(01:00):
don't want us to be together.
We fall apart like we ain't adamn bit of nothing, man.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I'm great, yeah, yeah , good, all right, what are we
talking about?
Speaker 5 (01:18):
today.
To jump into the topic that youraised in the possible I forget
the name of the document wehave working, it's possible
areas of disagreement, somethinglike that.
Yeah, and you wrote.
(01:39):
Can I quote you, Please do?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Okay, anytime.
Speaker 5 (01:43):
Anytime, mm-hmm.
Well, now I feel like I canquote you and I don't even have
to worry about whether or notit's something you actually said
.
Fine with me, I'm just going tosay do you remember the time
Lucas said this?
All right.
So here's what you wroteFinding yourself is a lie
perpetrated by our consumeristand then parenthetical, not
capitalist, culture.
(02:03):
Yep, all right.
Consumerist and thenparenthetical, not capitalist
culture, yep, all right.
So in most of these bullet,well, in several of the bullet
points, I have a comment that Irespond right, either agreement
or like.
I mean a couple times I'm like Itotally agree, which probably
disappointed you failure on mypart, yeah but a couple times I
have tell me more, and thereason I wrote tell me more is
because I'm not even sure whatto respond.
(02:27):
Okay, okay, and so one of thisparticular statement of yours is
one that I began with simplytell me more, all right, so tell
me more.
What do you mean?
What are you saying?
So tell me more.
What do you mean?
What are you saying?
Are you saying that the wholeconcept of finding yourself is
(02:51):
just a fallacy?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yes, we understand, as finding yourself is mostly
when we interrogate it amarketing slogan.
(03:16):
I think it has its and I'm suresomebody will show me why I'm
absolutely wrong about this butI think it has its roots in a
consumerist culture that needsto reduce individuals to
(03:45):
different, particular identities, maybe, as we've called it
before, into avatars, sure Um,and I think that there's, I
think there's a lot to this thatwe could go down.
There's the concept of aconsistent soul, the idea that
you are this thing okay and thatyou are x right and that you
(04:13):
could, but that also there'sthis other part of you that I
guess isn't really you but canobserve the.
You can determine whether youare being you, or you are being
your parents, or you are beingyour friends, right, and that
(04:37):
the so wait a second.
Speaker 5 (04:40):
You said that that you that's observing is not the,
that there's a you that's notthe real you that's observing.
Well, that has.
I was going to say I would.
I would say or I would thinkthat that would be the real.
You is the center.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
That's the fixed thing and the in scare quotes,
you, that is trying to discoverwhat the real you is, could get
(05:15):
it wrong.
You might be wrong, you mightbe living a lie.
You, for instance, might begoing to medical school because
that's what your parents wantyou to do and so you believe
that's what you're supposed todo.
But that's not really you, whatyou are as a poet.
I'm being obviously extremelydismissive right now, but I'm
(05:37):
kind of doing it on purpose,right, because this is the world
that I grew up in.
Because this is the world thatI grew up in and I don't mean my
(06:11):
grandparents or my family,although they were, you know,
this is, you know, a boy's worldis small, right, the self that
I observed being delivered to methrough popular, all of the
popular culture, that there wassome true essence of me, that I
could, that I again in scarequotes could get wrong.
I might be wrong about that,and that I would know I was
wrong because I wouldn't betruly, fill in the blank, happy,
satisfied, content, fulfilled,fulfilled, mm-hmm.
(06:35):
So my contention is a couple ofthings.
That is a big statement that Imade there.
There's a few sections to it.
Number one I don't know thisconcept.
I don't understand anymore,this concept of the true self.
Okay, there's one, number two Ithink that concept is most
(07:05):
promulgated and supported by theconsumerist aspect of our
culture, which, again and DarylCooper's done a much better job
than I of fleshing that out andhow our consumerist culture
creates avatars that we identifywith, and that it's an ever
(07:34):
exponentially increasing rate ofnew avatars for you to identify
with, identify with, in fact,it would be perfect for you to
identify with an avatar in themoment that you look at, for
instance, a website to purchasesomething and then, as soon as
(07:57):
you've purchased it, toimmediately get rid of that
identification and identify withsomething else that you could
purchase, right to, to, tomaintain that identity.
So that's the second thing.
The third thing is mycontention because and the
reason I threw this in there isbecause I I have plenty of
friends who I could hear theirvoice immediately being like
(08:19):
yeah, see, that's the problemwith capitalism.
We just need to get really seeit's late stage capitalism,
right, it would, it would.
There there would be commentsabout how that's because we have
this terrible, greedy economicsystem called capitalism.
And my contention isn't it isno, that's not fundamental to
(08:39):
capitalism.
That is an offshoot ofcapitalism, sure.
Sure that I would callconsumerism.
But my contention is that youcould conceivably find that a
similar, analogous culture thatwould drive this ever-increasing
search for the you, indifferent economic systems as
(09:02):
well, in different economicsystems as well, that it's not
simply the private ownership ofproperty that causes this.
It's a particular brand that wefind ourselves in that, frankly
, um caused you know some 19thcentury, late 19th century and
then early 20th century thinkersto say things like this is what
(09:24):
jingoism was, this is kind ofbehind the whole jingoism, where
they would say look, a cultureleft too free to its own devices
becomes decadent, decadent andit's just a whole, you know,
(09:49):
population of of these, theseindividuals just seeking greater
and greater fulfillment andpleasure and individualism,
right, yeah, aldous huxley, um,but it's.
It's exemplified in people liketeddy roosevelt, who was kind of
the.
He was a poster child forjingoism, right, and for anybody
who doesn't know what jingoismis, it's just a word that means,
uh, it's like wartimeadventurism, right, it's like,
(10:12):
yeah, it's like wanting war,right, his whole rough riders.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
We need to have a thing so that I can make my name
so I can make my name.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yes, that is.
That is part of it, but alsoone of the philosophies
underlying it was societies needwar, and the reason that they
said this is societies gothrough these cycles where they
become decadent and corrupt, andyou need war to burn away all
(10:41):
of that and get the societyfocused on what matters.
Turn away all of that and getthe society focused on what
matters family service to oneanother, community.
This is their idea.
I'm not that I don't go downthat road.
I would like to avoid war atall times, in all places.
However, um, I do think thatyou know there's a lot of people
that came at this concept fromdifferent angles and and had
(11:05):
different solutions for it.
Speaker 5 (11:06):
So there's my long-winded answer to that's
what I meant okay, so a couplethings, um, one is is the is the
issue with the idea of finding,or is it the is the issue with
the idea of self?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
oh, I both both.
Yeah, I have an issue with bothokay, and that I think that's
because I'm a child of the 90s,and being a child of the 90s
meant who are you and how areyou going to find that out?
Unless you move to new york andcut your hair and join the um.
You know the department in yourcollege that your mom and dad,
uh, don't want you to college,that your mom and dad don't want
(11:47):
you to, and tell your mom anddad I'm not going to live under
your you know tyrannicalauthority.
You can't tell me who I am.
I am a wonderful, beautifulsinging flower and I was meant
to write poetry.
It's dripping.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
It's dripping with sarcasm.
It was meant to write poetry.
It's dripping.
It's dripping with sarcasm.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yes, it is yeah, and disdain, yes, yes, but I'm not
kidding.
That is the plot of like.
So many.
Did you ever watch Wednesday?
I haven't.
No, I didn't see Wednesday whenit became a phenomenon.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
Yeah, Well, and season two just came out.
So, denise and I, actually juststarted last night watching
season one and the whole thingis she doesn't want to be her
mom.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
And I understand that , but my and, and it might be
universal that a teenager needsto first say, uh, I'm not my
parents.
I do get that, Although again.
I wonder if we accept that as atruism because we live in the
(12:49):
particular culture we are in.
And if we were in a culturethat was where you could assume
that your life, that yourgrandchildren as an 18-year-old,
that your grandchildren's lifewould look fundamentally the
same as your grandparents' life.
If we would still have theseassumptions, Maybe we would.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
Sure, well, okay.
So here's the thing too, and Iwrote this down as you were
talking and I was really proudof the pun.
Maybe it's not something that'sa lie, perpetuated or
perpetrated rather by ourconsumerist not capitalist
(13:32):
culture, but maybe it'ssomething that is being
capitalized on in ourconsumerist culture.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
How so?
Okay, so you mean it's a realthing, but then it's kind of
being I'm saying it's a realthing.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
But what happens is we use it as because I think you
said a marketing slogan, yeah,okay.
So I think that what makes itan effective marketing slogan is
that there's some truth in it,right?
And so what I'm saying is thereis some truth to the fact that
we don't really know who we are,and it's because of all of
(14:09):
these things around us, all ofthese different avatars Like you
should be this, you should bethat, you should be this, you
should be that.
And so what happens is we say,well, you can find your true
self if you you know.
And then we identify with thereally cool looking guy sitting
there smoking a cigar anddrinking a bourbon or whatever,
right.
And so then for a while, I'llthink to myself and maybe I'm in
(14:33):
that stage right now where I'mthat guy right, or Harrison Ford
, but I drive a Jeep.
Have you seen that commercialcommercial?
Oh, you're missing out on somegreat commercials.
Lucas, you need to watch moretelevision, yeah, so, yeah,
there's this commercial wherehe's like but my last name's
ford and he whispers that, butit's this whole lifestyle and it
(14:55):
shows him.
I did notice this too.
Like car car.
I think car um commercials area great example of what you're
talking about.
But I'm saying, what they'redoing is they're cashing in on
the truth that there is suchthing as self, and what they're
doing is they're using that thenin order to yes, we are
(15:17):
capitalists, but more so we areconsumerists.
To this point, we areconsumerists, there's no doubt
about it.
Consumerists, to this pointright, we are consumerists,
there's no doubt about it.
But what we're doing inadvertising and marketing is
we're capitalizing on it.
So again, the car commercialthing.
When's the last time you saw acar commercial that actually
(15:37):
told you about the car and notabout how cool you would be or
what?
And so, if you are X, Y and Z,you're going to drive a Jeep, or
you're going to drive a Saab,or you're going to drive a
Mercedes cool, or somebody thatwe associate as being a cool
(16:08):
actor, like um, um matthewmcconaughey right, he's got that
really cool southern drawl andhe's taught and like while he's
driving his mercedes.
and all we know is that,apparently, matthew mcconaughey
is cool and he drives a mercedes, and so if you want to be cool
like matthew mcconaughey, you'lldrive a mercedes too.
All right, it doesn't mean thatthere isn't a self, though.
How would we know?
(16:30):
Well, I'm glad you asked.
So I did happen to look upJungian uh, jungian uh,
psychology, right, because whenI, when I was reading that, I
was like, all right, I need to,I need to freshen up on Carl
Jung, because he's, in my mind,one of the preeminent um persons
(16:53):
to deal with this idea of self,mm-hmm, right.
So within that philosophicalschool, the idea of finding
yourself, according to what Iwas able to find, refers to the
process of individuation, whichis the lifelong journey of
integrating the conscious andunconscious aspects of the
(17:14):
psyche to become a whole,authentic individual.
And so what I'm saying is thatthe consumer side is only
working on the conscious side,but there is this unconscious
side that we need to spend alittle time with.
It involves confronting andunderstanding one's shadow.
(17:34):
Remember the whole idea ofshadow, self right Persona and
other hidden aspects of the self, ultimately leading to greater
self-awareness, personalfulfillment and a more
meaningful life, which, again,we even disagree on whether or
not life needs to have some sortof greater meaning.
I think that we disagree onthat.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
I don't remember anymore well, I don't disagree
that there is a sense within,within humans, that there is
some thing that we would call aself.
Um you know, I this is somethingthat rollins, I feel like, was
(18:19):
talking about which is this,this sense that there's, um,
that there's something missingand that I'm searching for it?
I don't, I don't disagree thatthere is, that.
I think that you might be ontosomething in the idea that the
(18:39):
search for your true self maynot be a creation of a
consumerist society.
Maybe it's an appropriation ofit, maybe the consumerist
society appropriates that realsense, but I don't.
I still reject the idea thatthat is some sort of.
(19:03):
I think there's a concept thatthere is a concrete self, there
is this thing that is me, andthat, again, that I have to find
(19:36):
that thing, and to me, thatsuggests that I could get it
wrong.
That I don't understand.
I don't understand the idea thatI could get it wrong, isn't it
I that I'm doing it?
Well, maybe it's not that youcould, but I do understand this.
I.
I think that, um, I guess my,my idea is that this, whatever
we call the self, is some sortof emergent property that comes
out of the searching right, this, this process that Jung is
talking about, of theintegration of subconscious,
(19:59):
unconscious and conscious, thatthat process itself is the self.
I don't know I'm rambling alittle bit at this point, but or
is the process actuallycreating?
Speaker 5 (20:12):
is actually creating self, authentic self?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
yeah, I just again, there's this.
I guess what I am um, the thereal thing that I am very much
pushing back on, is this concept.
That again, I I mean Idescribed it in in dripping
sarcasm, but what I was doingwas describing the show felicity
(20:40):
, I mean, this is the concept ofthe 90s yeah that I remember,
which is that you know I'm doingthe responsible thing, and the
ethic of the moral lesson right?
(21:02):
There's a term for this and Ican't remember.
I wish I could because it wouldmake me sound so much smarter.
But the ethic of the lessonunderneath the story is doing
the responsible thing is not theright thing.
Doing the thing that makes medoing something else usually
(21:26):
artistic will make me feelbetter and I will somehow know
at that point now I am me andthat that is the right thing to
do.
Being a banker pretty boring andalso nobody wants to be a
(21:49):
banker.
I'm probably sad.
I probably eat TV dinners.
Nobody wants to be a banker.
Oh, I'm probably sad.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
I probably eat TV dinners and watch the home
shopping network at home bymyself.
Patrick on SpongeBob.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Right.
Yeah.
And I drink alone.
Mm-hmm.
And I started painting D&Dfigurines and I've discovered
this is what I've always beenmeant to do.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
See, and I would think the person that's at home
painting D&D figurines isprobably oh, I'm sad, I have no
friends, I drink by myself.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
To be fair, the reason I picked that just then
is because I flipping love D&Dand I love using figurines we
have stuff at our house if youwant it.
Yeah, I'll take it.
One of the aspects of movingthat made me the saddest really
(22:54):
was um that about two yearsbefore we moved, I had gotten
invited to join a um a, d and Dgroup of a bunch of dads well,
dads and then there was, uh, twoother guys who weren't dads,
but they were adults, adult guys.
Yeah.
These are all adult men withjobs.
Yeah.
Who fill up their gas tank allthe way.
(23:17):
Yeah, and uh, wear cargo shorts.
Okay, and one day a week wewould get together and we would,
uh, we would talk about our elfcharacters and I would use
voices, we would.
You know, those of us who feltcomfortable using voices would
(23:37):
use voices and it was thenerdiest thing ever, but we did
it every week and seriously,there, it made me so sad to have
to leave that.
Speaker 5 (23:49):
Um, anyway, that's just a comment on, I think, on
community, you know, sure,because we built an actual
community there so I'm still notconvinced that, um, you haven't
convinced me that findingyourself was a lie perpetrated,
um, by our consumerist culture.
I, I think I still think thatis it the perpetrated part?
I, I, I just think that, um,maybe it's the perpetrated part,
(24:10):
I just think that maybe it'sthe perpetrated part.
I think it's capitalized on byour consumerist culture, because
I still do think that there issuch thing as a true self.
But I also think that, even inyour example of what was the
(24:31):
name of the show, again,felicity, think that even in,
even in your example of what wasthe name of the show, again,
felicity, felicity.
Okay, even in that example, Ithink that's just.
That is just another greatexample of capitalizing on it.
Right, there is this trueconcept of fulfillment when you
find, when you're able toself-actualize or find your true
(24:53):
self.
And and even that language, Ithink, has been so overplayed
that it does cause eye-rollingto begin to happen and it sounds
very sort of new agey orwhatever, but I think that
there's some truth to it and allthat is is an example of how
(25:15):
someone has cashed in on thisand taken it to the ridiculous
degree, because I do think thatyou can have actually completely
become.
You've found yourself as abanker.
I think that there's acaricature.
You've found yourself as abanker.
I think that there's.
(25:35):
I think there's a caricaturethat then gets um sort of played
out, and that might be what I'mhearing you push against is
actually the characterization ofit and the commercialization of
it, but not that that means itdoesn't exist okay, so I'll be.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
I'll try to be vulnerable here.
I think that, if I'm honestwith myself, um, there is a and
it would take probably a threehour biography of myself to lead
up with the correct context toexplain what I'm about to
explain, but I'm just going totell you instead.
(26:22):
I think that I have thisconceptualization that it's good
or that it's fine.
There's nothing wrong with justhaving a job, just having a job
that supports your family andisn't your passion.
(26:45):
You know it's it.
It wasn't your dream, it's notwhat you love, but it's fine.
You're not miserable.
Everyone has aspects of theirjob that they don't like you
know, but you just do it.
I'm not talking about beingmiserable, but you know it's not
.
It wasn't your goal, it wasn't.
(27:12):
Well, maybe it was your goalbut it wasn't your passion.
You know, and I do think, ifI'm honest with myself, that
probably there's an aspect ofthat, or probably the biggest
aspect of the reason I have thatconceptualization or that idea.
My formative adolescent yearswere this contrast between the
(27:36):
chaos of, you know, my mom'sworld and, well, my, my dad
abandoning and the kind of whatI considered at the time, I
consider at the time, I considerat the time the square, stodgy,
boring, you know, consistentworld of my grandparents.
(27:59):
My grandpa, you know, mygrandpa has a.
You could describe his job orhis career as being cool.
He was a chemist, rocketchemist for Aerojet right.
I now would say he worked for aweapons manufacturer, but that's
cool.
I could say that's cool, butthat was never his.
(28:20):
It turned out he was just very,very good at math and he worked
his way into there without adegree or whatever you know, but
he was trying to make sure hisfamily didn't starve, and my
grandma too.
She was head legal analyst forinternal affairs for the
(28:40):
Department of Justice inCalifornia.
They called her the dragon ladybecause she was the one who
decided who they brought actionagainst inside the Department of
Justice for California.
That's a cool job.
That was later in life.
She just was trying to makesure her kids didn't starve, and
that her grandkids had a roof.
There's this scene from that70s show that I love and Krista
(29:07):
and I always talk about it,where Kitty and Red are the main
parents there.
And then there's the, there'sthe uh, the neighbors that they
have, and the neighbor is bob,who the show is supposed to.
He's like a business owner, he'swealthy and his wife is
portrayed as like well, she's astay-at-home mom, but she's
portrayed as kind of being kindof ditzy also and but then she
(29:29):
goes through kind of becauseit's that 70s show.
She goes through kind of abecause it's that 70s show.
She goes through kind of thistime period where she wants to
have women's liberation, right.
This is the idea, that's theplot device.
So she's sitting with Kitty andthey're talking and she says
Kitty, how did you get red tolet you go to work?
Because Kitty works, how didyou get red to let you go to
(29:51):
work?
And Kitty goes well, and thatKitty way is fantastic, she goes
well.
One day we were sitting at thekitchen table and we went we
can't pay our mortgage and thatwas that's it.
There's no ideology, it's justwe're just trying to keep our
kids alive, but okay, so that'sa long-winded way of saying and
(30:15):
if I'm being honest with myself,that's probably an
identification that I'm havingwith my grandparents.
You know, once I became kind ofa young adult in the rejection
or you know kind of picking oneside.
Speaker 5 (30:34):
Okay, a couple notes.
One is, I think, that what hasbeen co-opted by the consumerist
portion of our society is thatfinding yourself equals
happiness.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
I think that's a misconception.
Okay Right, because I thinkthat if you look at what finding
yourself means, it has more todo with personal fulfillment and
having a meaningful life.
That doesn't mean happy.
All right.
I think happiness is somethingthat you can have within that,
and I think that happiness issomething that does come with
(31:17):
self-awareness, finding yourselfright.
So, for example, let's just saythat your ideology is that
fulfilling and meaningful lifeis providing for the family.
Then, all of a sudden, as youprovide for family and you
(31:38):
realize that that's meaningfuland that's fulfilling, then all
of a sudden you can actuallyfind joy in that.
Yeah, however you want to word,it is actually doing us a
disfavor by taking this truth ofbeing able to self-actualize,
(32:03):
find self, and hascommercialized it in such a way
that now it means to be happy,right, and so I can run off and
I can be artsy, fartsy, whatever.
I want to be Right, and, andall anyone ever wants to be, is
that Right, and I think that Ithink there, therein lies the
(32:25):
problem.
I can remember being told whenI was younger and again you talk
about the 70s show Um, Iwatched it, but I lived it.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Right, right.
Speaker 5 (32:35):
My neighbor, her like what was?
Uh, it was red and um, and whatwas her name?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Kitty, kitty.
Speaker 5 (32:42):
Yeah, my neighbor, her, her name was Cookie.
Right, I mean it's a seventiesthing, right, yeah, yeah.
And um and so, yeah, very muchsome of the moms stayed at home,
most of the moms stayed at homeand all that kind of stuff All
right.
But I can remember, like in theeighties, being told that if
you can find something that youlove, you'll never work a day in
your life.
(33:02):
That's right, right, yep and um,and.
But this is what my experiencehas been is that if you take a
hobby and you and you decidethat you're going to try to
monetize it and live off of it,it becomes work, and the moment
it becomes work, it becomesdrudgery and it's no longer fun.
(33:22):
The actual joy comes from thefact that I don't depend on it
for my living, and so, in orderfor me then to be able to
self-actualize myself, I had torealize, maybe, that not
everything is run off to newyork city or la or wherever, and
(33:45):
and then become this thing.
But it's that.
Part of it is that there aregoing to be hobbies that I'm
going to have a lot of joy in,but my but part of life is being
able to fill a role for thepeople that I love and that I'm
connected to, and so maybe partof it is I'm going to be a
(34:12):
financial advisor for people,and then on the weekends or some
nights during the week, I'mgoing to paint D&D figures, and
that's going to be somethingthat really brings me joy, and
when I realized that I thatthose are the things that make
me happy, uh and, and it's notthat I enjoy, um, you know,
(34:34):
getting up and going to anoffice every day, but I enjoy
knowing that my kids are goingto have something to eat.
I find that fulfilling that my,my, my, uh, my family is going
to have a roof over their head.
That's that's important to me,that that's actually the process
of cutting through the, thegarbage and the connecting of
the two right.
(34:54):
So back to young, this idea ofthis process of the conscious
and the unconscious.
So maybe what it is is actuallycutting through what the
consumerist society tells us.
It means to self-actualize andbeing able to.
You have to connect both andsay that's actually not it at
(35:18):
all.
Both and say that's actuallynot it at all.
But I can still.
I can find fulfillment inmeaning I can know who I am.
I just have to actually be ableto shut that other stuff out.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
So it reminds me.
I like that a lot.
It reminds me of a clip that Isaved peterson that, where he
talks about this, um kind ofthing.
He talks about this all thetime, actually in different ways
, but I've got the clip I tellyoung men it's like find
something difficult to do.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
You need that.
You're not built for comfort orpleasure, like if that comes
along good, if you have a daywhere you're comfortable and
there's some things around youthat give pleasure, have some
sense and enjoy it.
But don't be thinking that'swhat your life is aimed at.
That's contemptible.
Everyone knows that.
And if they orient themselvesin that hedonistic direction,
(36:11):
there's nothing in it but shame.
No one is proud of themselvesfor using pornography.
They might screech and bitchabout their rights to do it.
I can live whatever lifestyle Iwant.
It's like well, first of all,no, you can't.
That doesn't work.
It won't work for you becauseyou can't sell yourself out, and
it won't work for other people.
(36:31):
When I tell people this, theaudiences always go dead silent.
It's like the adventure in yourlife will be found in
responsibility.
No one ever hears that.
We haven't told young peoplethat for like 60 years you pick
up the cross and shoulder ituphill, because that's where all
the meaning in your life willbe derived from.
(36:52):
It's in the difficulty, it's inthe responsibility.
It's not in the hedonisticself-gratification.
People just get what they wantall the time, immediately.
It's not like that ennoblestheir character, like obviously
not your character is made nobleby sacrifice, by the delay of
(37:27):
having happiness.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
That there's nothing wrong with happiness.
That if you get happiness, youfind yourself happy.
Margaritas on the beach enjoythat?
Yeah, like don't there's.
You should.
You should have enough sense,as he says.
Have enough sense to enjoy thatfor all it's worth.
Yeah, but that that is a um.
(37:54):
It's not meaningless, it is aninfinitesimally small fraction
of your life, and that the wayto find meaning in your life is
to pick up responsibility, andthat that is going to be an
endless well of meaning for you.
That that is, and he talksabout this sometimes.
I don't think in this clip hedoesn't talk about it, but he
(38:15):
talks about how you know.
Talk about it, but he talksabout how you know how you greet
your spouse when you come inthe door every day.
That's like you know.
You add up those moments ofjust greeting your spouse every
time you see your spouse.
That's a huge percentage ofyour life, you know.
Sharing a meal with your family, that's a huge percentage of
(38:38):
your life.
You know the time that youspend, you know sharing a meal
with your family, that's a hugepercentage of your life.
You know the, the time that youspend.
You know what pick your thing,the time that you spend in your
church, that's a huge percentageof your life.
You know, again, compared tomargaritas on the beach,
metaphorically, and that thoseare the things that seem mundane
, but that's really where theyou know the meaning can come
(39:00):
from your life.
So I mean, I think he'sprobably saying a similar thing
that what you're saying, whichis there, is this, there is
something real to the you, butmaybe the thing that the
consumerist culture has done ishijacked that sense.
And then, um, given you, uh, atold you that that the end of
(39:26):
the rainbow is going to be ahedonistic kind of pleasure
center and that it can provideit.
If you would just identify withthis, you know what kind of car
?
Well, that's the.
That's the.
That is one of the fundamentalum uh um messages of the movie
fight club.
Right I.
I sat there looking at the greatmovie at the catalog and
(39:49):
wondering, uh, what coffee tabledefines me as an individual?
You know I'm sure I'm sayingthe wrong.
Maybe said refrigerator,whatever, but that's what you
know.
He's talking about ourconsumerist culture giving us
our identity through the thingsthat it can sell us.
And again I just want to say,again I will defend to my last
(40:11):
breath that that is not inherent.
To don't think that consumerismitself is only negative.
I think that our consumeristculture provides an enormous
amount of benefit as well, butit also comes.
I think everything istrade-offs.
Speaker 5 (40:29):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
It comes with some pretty significant negatives.
Speaker 5 (40:34):
I want to take this one step further.
Yeah, the role that and I thinkthat I'm actually going to come
back around to where you are,just maybe from a different
perspective on it.
I think that the consumeristsociety has made it necessary to
have conversations about beingable to find yourself.
(40:58):
Oh, how, so Okay about beingable to find yourself.
Oh how?
So okay, because, um, youmentioned how it's.
Uh, it only seems.
It seems that, like some othercultures or maybe I, maybe I
misunderstood you but like, um,if I let's say, uh, you go, you
can go back to Hunter Gathereror something like that, they
(41:24):
don't take the time to findthemselves.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Right, because they know who they are.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
Yes, because no one else was telling them that
actually this is who you areRight, that actually this is who
you are right, and so whathappens is, by taking this truth
, I even have okay the airquotes right, yeah, yeah.
That there is a self, but wehave now made it more about
(41:56):
having fun, being happy, findingfulfillment through stuff,
instead of in providing andcontributing to the tribe.
Whatever the case may be thatnow there's an actual process
that some people have to gothrough in order to be like well
(42:18):
, who am I, what am I?
And it's not.
I think that the real processthen becomes in being able to
step away and think criticallyabout the consumerist society
that we live in, where it wasn'tnecessary before because I knew
very well who I was.
My role in this community, inthis tribe, is this, and that is
(42:41):
very fulfilling for me, becauseI'd have no other noise telling
me no, it's actually going tohappen if you buy this Jeep.
No, it's actually going tohappen if you move to New York
City and you, um, well, I wasjust going about to describe, um
, bob Dylan's life, right orlike.
Well, I was just about todescribe Bob Dylan's life right
(43:02):
or like, and.
Bob Dylan's life as weunderstand, that was the
ultimate finding yourself right.
Well, and.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
I don't know Bob Dylan.
Speaker 5 (43:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
He's not my friend Right.
He's not my brother Sure, he'snot my son Sure, which means
that when I Lucas Lucas says BobDylan's life, I am talking
about a marketing campaign.
That's what I'm talking about,absolutely.
So his life really is justanother aspect of this.
Speaker 5 (43:32):
Yeah, because then what happens is, if I want to so
, then I think, well, what'llhappen is, in order to find
myself, I need to model my lifeafter this advertising campaign,
right, and so what I'm sayingis that I wouldn't.
I wouldn't perpetrated.
(43:52):
How about?
Finding yourself is a lie, it'sperpetrated.
Finding yourself is a lie.
It's perpetrated.
It's definitely cashed in on byour consumerist culture.
How are you using perpetrated?
Because I'm trying to see if Iagree with you, even though I
came at it from a completelydifferent perspective.
(44:13):
I mean, I did start off with theidea that, because you said
that you had a problem both withfinding yourself and are
finding and yourself.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah, I say on on a philosophical level.
The idea of a, of a self that'sfixed, that that you could get
wrong, seems counterintuitive tome.
That doesn't make any sense tome.
(44:42):
How could like?
How could that be?
I am what I am, right.
Myself is the conglomeration ofall of my activities and
thoughts and feelings andeverything.
Right.
That seems like what it is andso I did start.
I mean, I meant it as findingyourself is a lie.
Speaker 5 (45:05):
That's a lie that's what I read it as yeah and
that's how I meant it.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Um, and there's still some part of me that feels like
that is that I don't want towalk away from that completely,
although I am softening a littlebit.
I think that when I was younger, my late 20s and through my 30s
(45:31):
, I would have talked aboutindividualism as being the
highest ideal, right, right.
Big fan of ayn rand.
I'm still a big fan of ayn rand, um, and so this idea that that
(45:53):
I am who I am separate from thegroup right.
The group does not haveauthority over me.
I reject that right again.
If I'm being honest, thatprobably comes from some
conglomeration of childhoodexperiences and leading me up to
that point I'm thinking you hadmentioned one time before that
your fifth generationcalifornian.
Speaker 5 (46:14):
I would say that's probably built into your dna at
this point because knowing thepeople that settled california.
It makes sense to me that thatwould be something that is just
inherently who you are.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yeah, and I grew up with grandparents my grandfather
that raised me, he was thefirst one, you know.
His dad was an immigrant fromthe Azores.
So, even though it's not like Iwas from an immigrant,
immigrant family, that's notwhat I'm trying to say but I
grew up with kind of the lore ofbeing produced from immigrant
(46:49):
family, from an immigrant familylike the people who were like
we will leave, we will go findthe place that we need to be in
for the sake of our family andwhat you know, whatever.
So, yeah, there's probably someof that built in.
There's also, um, you know, uh,a a bristling at authority, you
(47:12):
know, um, so there's a lot ofthings that probably is baked
into that.
But, um, but I had this likereal.
That's the highest ideal, youknow.
But I can't deny when I wouldread about people who joined
(47:42):
communist movements throughoutthe 20th century and what their
life was like and I'm talkingabout communist movements in
countries where it meantsomething not being a communist
in the United States, where youcould get blacklisted.
Yes, bad things happen, sure but, by and large, you're not going
to get jailed and also you'renot going to get executed for
being a communist.
I'm talking about people whosomeone finds out you're a
communist and you will betortured and executed, right.
(48:03):
And these people, when theywould join these movements, from
the moment they woke up to whenthey laid their head back down,
they knew exactly what theywere doing and what their
purpose was.
They had committed themselvesto this grander thing.
You know they had committedthemselves to this grander thing
(48:41):
.
You know um and it and it gavethem a sense of it's, it's
almost joy to, and and they'reliving in squalor, going,
working in wherever it is, youknow, doing, doing whatever it
is that they had that they gotassigned to do.
You know, you find this in um,in partisan groups that are um,
that are working behind thelines during wartime.
Um, when they've committedthemselves to the cause, um.
You know this idea, this, thissense that I've given myself
wholly to this movement or thisgroup, to this movement or this
(49:08):
group, I've divested myself ofmy individualism completely.
It brings with it a certainlevel of kind of euphoria that I
think has to be, probablybecause there's some part of us
that wants to, like you weretalking about in the
hunter-gatherer society wants toknow, like I don't even have to
talk about it, I am this, I amthis part of my community.
My identity comes from theplace that I am in in my
(49:32):
community, but we don't.
There's no need for that in oursociety.
There is no need to be a partof any community in our society
in order to continue livingright, and so then you can have
this hyper individualityindividuality.
Speaker 5 (49:47):
And that's getting worse.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Which to your point, then the advertising campaigns
can come in and give you youridentity, because your identity
is not inherent right.
It's not inherent that I am.
What's my identity?
Well, I am the son of my fatherand I am the husband of my wife
(50:09):
and I am the father of my, youknow what I mean.
Like I have my place and that'sit.
I don't even know what theconversation is.
Speaker 5 (50:14):
You know and I find joy when we get together and we
have our meals and I find joywhen we have provided you know,
we put meat on the table, and Ifind joy in seeing that my
children are taken care of andyeah, right, right, and there's
no sense, or at least therewould be a lot less sense.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
I think, in a situation like that, that
there's something missing, thatthere's a part of me that's deep
inside of my psyche that ismissing something.
You know that really, I am thetype of person that would rather
(50:58):
deal with brown rocks insteadof gray rocks when we're doing,
when you know, when we're youknow, whatever.
Like there's no.
All of those choices I thinkcome from.
All those choices are able tobe presented and taken seriously
when you pull the individualout of their context.
(51:21):
You know, I think maybe.
So I guess I'm just lessindividualistic now, even though
I still I'm not going to let goof it.
It's still part of mypersonality, yeah, but.
Speaker 5 (51:33):
I, I'm a.
I'm a uh, what would be theopposite of a?
Uh, I'm a tribalist.
I am a community orientedperson.
Um, I find I find myfulfillment and meaning in the
(51:59):
community and in creatingcommunity.
So anyway, um, did we find anycommon ground here?
Speaker 3 (52:09):
I think we're a lot closer, that, um, that I think
there's probably something to.
I definitely think that there,um, there is something to the
process of inner searching, youknow, uh, of self.
And I certainly agree with youthat our consumerist society, I
(52:35):
think, I think maybe I'll softenand I don't think that that the
whole finding yourself thingwas perpetrated by our
consumerist society, I think I,I think I'm a little bit more on
your side that it, that it'shijacked or appropriated or
whatever word you want to usefor that it's, it's using that,
that kind of sense and drive I,I, I would agree.
Speaker 5 (52:56):
So here's what I would say.
I think the finding portion ofit is, um, the result of the, uh
, our, within our culture, causeI would be interested in
knowing too, like is that?
Is it uniquely Western, umculture that has this finding
yourself thing?
(53:17):
And so I would say that thatour, as individualism has
expanded, the idea of findinghas become a thing, and then I
think that consumerism iscashing in on it.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
Yeah, it would be an interesting exploration to look
at, I would say, in particular,roman society, because I think
that Roman society has a lot ofanalogies to our current society
.
I know I'm not unique in sayingthat, but I think that that is
interesting.
However, I wonder if it doeshave something to do with our
(53:55):
kind of unique blend of beingenlightenment plus
industrialized, you know, andthe opportunities for
consumerism from there.
I don't know, because there wasa lot of industrial production
during most of the Roman Empire.
(54:16):
Stuff that surprised me when Ifound out about it, like mines
and again things that seemedkind of Henry Ford production
line type production of likepottery and stuff, you know.
But anyway, yeah, that would beinteresting Good topic Yep.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
Thank you for listening to Living on Common
Ground.
Please follow wherever youlisten to your podcasts and
share it with your friends.
You can also find a link to oursocial in the description.
The more people we have livingon common ground, the better the
world will be.
Does it feel like every part of your life is
divided, Every scenario, everyenvironment, your church, your
school, your work, your friends,left right, conservative,
liberal, religious, secular?
It seems you always have totake a side.
This is a conversation betweena progressive Christian and a
conservative atheist who happento be great friends.
(00:23):
Welcome to Living on CommonGround.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Do you think if we met today, we would still be
friends?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I don't know but we're friends now.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
A mob is no less a mob because they are with him,
man.
So what?
We won a few games and y'allfools think that's something.
Man, that ain't nothing, y'all.
And you know what else?
We ain't nothing either.
Yeah, we came together in camp,cool.
But then we're right back hereand the world tells us that they
(01:00):
don't want us to be together.
We fall apart like we ain't adamn bit of nothing, man.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I'm great, yeah, yeah , good, all right, what are we
talking about?
Speaker 5 (01:18):
today.
To jump into the topic that youraised in the possible I forget
the name of the document wehave working, it's possible
areas of disagreement, somethinglike that.
Yeah, and you wrote.
(01:39):
Can I quote you, Please do?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Okay, anytime.
Speaker 5 (01:43):
Anytime, mm-hmm.
Well, now I feel like I canquote you and I don't even have
to worry about whether or notit's something you actually said
.
Fine with me, I'm just going tosay do you remember the time
Lucas said this?
All right.
So here's what you wroteFinding yourself is a lie
perpetrated by our consumeristand then parenthetical, not
capitalist, culture.
(02:03):
Yep, all right.
Consumerist and thenparenthetical, not capitalist
culture, yep, all right.
So in most of these bullet,well, in several of the bullet
points, I have a comment that Irespond right, either agreement
or like.
I mean a couple times I'm like Itotally agree, which probably
disappointed you failure on mypart, yeah but a couple times I
have tell me more, and thereason I wrote tell me more is
because I'm not even sure whatto respond.
(02:27):
Okay, okay, and so one of thisparticular statement of yours is
one that I began with simplytell me more, all right, so tell
me more.
What do you mean?
What are you saying?
So tell me more.
What do you mean?
What are you saying?
Are you saying that the wholeconcept of finding yourself is
(02:51):
just a fallacy?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yes, we understand, as finding yourself is mostly
when we interrogate it amarketing slogan.
(03:16):
I think it has its and I'm suresomebody will show me why I'm
absolutely wrong about this butI think it has its roots in a
consumerist culture that needsto reduce individuals to
(03:45):
different, particular identities, maybe, as we've called it
before, into avatars, sure Um,and I think that there's, I
think there's a lot to this thatwe could go down.
There's the concept of aconsistent soul, the idea that
you are this thing okay and thatyou are x right and that you
(04:13):
could, but that also there'sthis other part of you that I
guess isn't really you but canobserve the.
You can determine whether youare being you, or you are being
your parents, or you are beingyour friends, right, and that
(04:37):
the so wait a second.
Speaker 5 (04:40):
You said that that you that's observing is not the,
that there's a you that's notthe real you that's observing.
Well, that has.
I was going to say I would.
I would say or I would thinkthat that would be the real.
You is the center.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
That's the fixed thing and the in scare quotes,
you, that is trying to discoverwhat the real you is, could get
(05:15):
it wrong.
You might be wrong, you mightbe living a lie.
You, for instance, might begoing to medical school because
that's what your parents wantyou to do and so you believe
that's what you're supposed todo.
But that's not really you, whatyou are as a poet.
I'm being obviously extremelydismissive right now, but I'm
(05:37):
kind of doing it on purpose,right, because this is the world
that I grew up in.
Because this is the world thatI grew up in and I don't mean my
(06:11):
grandparents or my family,although they were, you know,
this is, you know, a boy's worldis small, right, the self that
I observed being delivered to methrough popular, all of the
popular culture, that there wassome true essence of me, that I
could, that I again in scarequotes could get wrong.
I might be wrong about that,and that I would know I was
wrong because I wouldn't betruly, fill in the blank, happy,
satisfied, content, fulfilled,fulfilled, mm-hmm.
(06:35):
So my contention is a couple ofthings.
That is a big statement that Imade there.
There's a few sections to it.
Number one I don't know thisconcept.
I don't understand anymore,this concept of the true self.
Okay, there's one, number two Ithink that concept is most
(07:05):
promulgated and supported by theconsumerist aspect of our
culture, which, again and DarylCooper's done a much better job
than I of fleshing that out andhow our consumerist culture
creates avatars that we identifywith, and that it's an ever
(07:34):
exponentially increasing rate ofnew avatars for you to identify
with, identify with, in fact,it would be perfect for you to
identify with an avatar in themoment that you look at, for
instance, a website to purchasesomething and then, as soon as
(07:57):
you've purchased it, toimmediately get rid of that
identification and identify withsomething else that you could
purchase, right to, to, tomaintain that identity.
So that's the second thing.
The third thing is mycontention because and the
reason I threw this in there isbecause I I have plenty of
friends who I could hear theirvoice immediately being like
(08:19):
yeah, see, that's the problemwith capitalism.
We just need to get really seeit's late stage capitalism,
right, it would, it would.
There there would be commentsabout how that's because we have
this terrible, greedy economicsystem called capitalism.
And my contention isn't it isno, that's not fundamental to
(08:39):
capitalism.
That is an offshoot ofcapitalism, sure.
Sure that I would callconsumerism.
But my contention is that youcould conceivably find that a
similar, analogous culture thatwould drive this ever-increasing
search for the you, indifferent economic systems as
(09:02):
well, in different economicsystems as well, that it's not
simply the private ownership ofproperty that causes this.
It's a particular brand that wefind ourselves in that, frankly
, um caused you know some 19thcentury, late 19th century and
then early 20th century thinkersto say things like this is what
(09:24):
jingoism was, this is kind ofbehind the whole jingoism, where
they would say look, a cultureleft too free to its own devices
becomes decadent, decadent andit's just a whole, you know,
(09:49):
population of of these, theseindividuals just seeking greater
and greater fulfillment andpleasure and individualism,
right, yeah, aldous huxley, um,but it's.
It's exemplified in people liketeddy roosevelt, who was kind of
the.
He was a poster child forjingoism, right, and for anybody
who doesn't know what jingoismis, it's just a word that means,
uh, it's like wartimeadventurism, right, it's like,
(10:12):
yeah, it's like wanting war,right, his whole rough riders.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
We need to have a thing so that I can make my name
so I can make my name.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yes, that is.
That is part of it, but alsoone of the philosophies
underlying it was societies needwar, and the reason that they
said this is societies gothrough these cycles where they
become decadent and corrupt, andyou need war to burn away all
(10:41):
of that and get the societyfocused on what matters.
Turn away all of that and getthe society focused on what
matters family service to oneanother, community.
This is their idea.
I'm not that I don't go downthat road.
I would like to avoid war atall times, in all places.
However, um, I do think thatyou know there's a lot of people
that came at this concept fromdifferent angles and and had
(11:05):
different solutions for it.
Speaker 5 (11:06):
So there's my long-winded answer to that's
what I meant okay, so a couplethings, um, one is is the is the
issue with the idea of finding,or is it the is the issue with
the idea of self?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
oh, I both both.
Yeah, I have an issue with bothokay, and that I think that's
because I'm a child of the 90s,and being a child of the 90s
meant who are you and how areyou going to find that out?
Unless you move to new york andcut your hair and join the um.
You know the department in yourcollege that your mom and dad,
uh, don't want you to college,that your mom and dad don't want
(11:47):
you to, and tell your mom anddad I'm not going to live under
your you know tyrannicalauthority.
You can't tell me who I am.
I am a wonderful, beautifulsinging flower and I was meant
to write poetry.
It's dripping.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
It's dripping with sarcasm.
It was meant to write poetry.
It's dripping.
It's dripping with sarcasm.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yes, it is yeah, and disdain, yes, yes, but I'm not
kidding.
That is the plot of like.
So many.
Did you ever watch Wednesday?
I haven't.
No, I didn't see Wednesday whenit became a phenomenon.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
Yeah, Well, and season two just came out.
So, denise and I, actually juststarted last night watching
season one and the whole thingis she doesn't want to be her
mom.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
And I understand that , but my and, and it might be
universal that a teenager needsto first say, uh, I'm not my
parents.
I do get that, Although again.
I wonder if we accept that as atruism because we live in the
(12:49):
particular culture we are in.
And if we were in a culturethat was where you could assume
that your life, that yourgrandchildren as an 18-year-old,
that your grandchildren's lifewould look fundamentally the
same as your grandparents' life.
If we would still have theseassumptions, Maybe we would.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
Sure, well, okay.
So here's the thing too, and Iwrote this down as you were
talking and I was really proudof the pun.
Maybe it's not something that'sa lie, perpetuated or
perpetrated rather by ourconsumerist not capitalist
(13:32):
culture, but maybe it'ssomething that is being
capitalized on in ourconsumerist culture.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
How so?
Okay, so you mean it's a realthing, but then it's kind of
being I'm saying it's a realthing.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
But what happens is we use it as because I think you
said a marketing slogan, yeah,okay.
So I think that what makes itan effective marketing slogan is
that there's some truth in it,right?
And so what I'm saying is thereis some truth to the fact that
we don't really know who we are,and it's because of all of
(14:09):
these things around us, all ofthese different avatars Like you
should be this, you should bethat, you should be this, you
should be that.
And so what happens is we say,well, you can find your true
self if you you know.
And then we identify with thereally cool looking guy sitting
there smoking a cigar anddrinking a bourbon or whatever,
right.
And so then for a while, I'llthink to myself and maybe I'm in
(14:33):
that stage right now where I'mthat guy right, or Harrison Ford
, but I drive a Jeep.
Have you seen that commercialcommercial?
Oh, you're missing out on somegreat commercials.
Lucas, you need to watch moretelevision, yeah, so, yeah,
there's this commercial wherehe's like but my last name's
ford and he whispers that, butit's this whole lifestyle and it
(14:55):
shows him.
I did notice this too.
Like car car.
I think car um commercials area great example of what you're
talking about.
But I'm saying, what they'redoing is they're cashing in on
the truth that there is suchthing as self, and what they're
doing is they're using that thenin order to yes, we are
(15:17):
capitalists, but more so we areconsumerists.
To this point, we areconsumerists, there's no doubt
about it.
Consumerists, to this pointright, we are consumerists,
there's no doubt about it.
But what we're doing inadvertising and marketing is
we're capitalizing on it.
So again, the car commercialthing.
When's the last time you saw acar commercial that actually
(15:37):
told you about the car and notabout how cool you would be or
what?
And so, if you are X, Y and Z,you're going to drive a Jeep, or
you're going to drive a Saab,or you're going to drive a
Mercedes cool, or somebody thatwe associate as being a cool
(16:08):
actor, like um, um matthewmcconaughey right, he's got that
really cool southern drawl andhe's taught and like while he's
driving his mercedes.
and all we know is that,apparently, matthew mcconaughey
is cool and he drives a mercedes, and so if you want to be cool
like matthew mcconaughey, you'lldrive a mercedes too.
All right, it doesn't mean thatthere isn't a self, though.
How would we know?
(16:30):
Well, I'm glad you asked.
So I did happen to look upJungian uh, jungian uh,
psychology, right, because whenI, when I was reading that, I
was like, all right, I need to,I need to freshen up on Carl
Jung, because he's, in my mind,one of the preeminent um persons
(16:53):
to deal with this idea of self,mm-hmm, right.
So within that philosophicalschool, the idea of finding
yourself, according to what Iwas able to find, refers to the
process of individuation, whichis the lifelong journey of
integrating the conscious andunconscious aspects of the
(17:14):
psyche to become a whole,authentic individual.
And so what I'm saying is thatthe consumer side is only
working on the conscious side,but there is this unconscious
side that we need to spend alittle time with.
It involves confronting andunderstanding one's shadow.
(17:34):
Remember the whole idea ofshadow, self right Persona and
other hidden aspects of the self, ultimately leading to greater
self-awareness, personalfulfillment and a more
meaningful life, which, again,we even disagree on whether or
not life needs to have some sortof greater meaning.
I think that we disagree onthat.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
I don't remember anymore well, I don't disagree
that there is a sense within,within humans, that there is
some thing that we would call aself.
Um you know, I this is somethingthat rollins, I feel like, was
(18:19):
talking about which is this,this sense that there's, um,
that there's something missingand that I'm searching for it?
I don't, I don't disagree thatthere is, that.
I think that you might be ontosomething in the idea that the
(18:39):
search for your true self maynot be a creation of a
consumerist society.
Maybe it's an appropriation ofit, maybe the consumerist
society appropriates that realsense, but I don't.
I still reject the idea thatthat is some sort of.
(19:03):
I think there's a concept thatthere is a concrete self, there
is this thing that is me, andthat, again, that I have to find
(19:36):
that thing, and to me, thatsuggests that I could get it
wrong.
That I don't understand.
I don't understand the idea thatI could get it wrong, isn't it
I that I'm doing it?
Well, maybe it's not that youcould, but I do understand this.
I.
I think that, um, I guess my,my idea is that this, whatever
we call the self, is some sortof emergent property that comes
out of the searching right, this, this process that Jung is
talking about, of theintegration of subconscious,
(19:59):
unconscious and conscious, thatthat process itself is the self.
I don't know I'm rambling alittle bit at this point, but or
is the process actuallycreating?
Speaker 5 (20:12):
is actually creating self, authentic self?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
yeah, I just again, there's this.
I guess what I am um, the thereal thing that I am very much
pushing back on, is this concept.
That again, I I mean Idescribed it in in dripping
sarcasm, but what I was doingwas describing the show felicity
(20:40):
, I mean, this is the concept ofthe 90s yeah that I remember,
which is that you know I'm doingthe responsible thing, and the
ethic of the moral lesson right?
(21:02):
There's a term for this and Ican't remember.
I wish I could because it wouldmake me sound so much smarter.
But the ethic of the lessonunderneath the story is doing
the responsible thing is not theright thing.
Doing the thing that makes medoing something else usually
(21:26):
artistic will make me feelbetter and I will somehow know
at that point now I am me andthat that is the right thing to
do.
Being a banker pretty boring andalso nobody wants to be a
(21:49):
banker.
I'm probably sad.
I probably eat TV dinners.
Nobody wants to be a banker.
Oh, I'm probably sad.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
I probably eat TV dinners and watch the home
shopping network at home bymyself.
Patrick on SpongeBob.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Right.
Yeah.
And I drink alone.
Mm-hmm.
And I started painting D&Dfigurines and I've discovered
this is what I've always beenmeant to do.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
See, and I would think the person that's at home
painting D&D figurines isprobably oh, I'm sad, I have no
friends, I drink by myself.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
To be fair, the reason I picked that just then
is because I flipping love D&Dand I love using figurines we
have stuff at our house if youwant it.
Yeah, I'll take it.
One of the aspects of movingthat made me the saddest really
(22:54):
was um that about two yearsbefore we moved, I had gotten
invited to join a um a, d and Dgroup of a bunch of dads well,
dads and then there was, uh, twoother guys who weren't dads,
but they were adults, adult guys.
Yeah.
These are all adult men withjobs.
Yeah.
Who fill up their gas tank allthe way.
(23:17):
Yeah, and uh, wear cargo shorts.
Okay, and one day a week wewould get together and we would,
uh, we would talk about our elfcharacters and I would use
voices, we would.
You know, those of us who feltcomfortable using voices would
(23:37):
use voices and it was thenerdiest thing ever, but we did
it every week and seriously,there, it made me so sad to have
to leave that.
Speaker 5 (23:49):
Um, anyway, that's just a comment on, I think, on
community, you know, sure,because we built an actual
community there so I'm still notconvinced that, um, you haven't
convinced me that findingyourself was a lie perpetrated,
um, by our consumerist culture.
I, I think I still think thatis it the perpetrated part?
I, I, I just think that, um,maybe it's the perpetrated part,
(24:10):
I just think that maybe it'sthe perpetrated part.
I think it's capitalized on byour consumerist culture, because
I still do think that there issuch thing as a true self.
But I also think that, even inyour example of what was the
(24:31):
name of the show, again,felicity, think that even in,
even in your example of what wasthe name of the show, again,
felicity, felicity.
Okay, even in that example, Ithink that's just.
That is just another greatexample of capitalizing on it.
Right, there is this trueconcept of fulfillment when you
find, when you're able toself-actualize or find your true
(24:53):
self.
And and even that language, Ithink, has been so overplayed
that it does cause eye-rollingto begin to happen and it sounds
very sort of new agey orwhatever, but I think that
there's some truth to it and allthat is is an example of how
(25:15):
someone has cashed in on thisand taken it to the ridiculous
degree, because I do think thatyou can have actually completely
become.
You've found yourself as abanker.
I think that there's acaricature.
You've found yourself as abanker.
I think that there's.
(25:35):
I think there's a caricaturethat then gets um sort of played
out, and that might be what I'mhearing you push against is
actually the characterization ofit and the commercialization of
it, but not that that means itdoesn't exist okay, so I'll be.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
I'll try to be vulnerable here.
I think that, if I'm honestwith myself, um, there is a and
it would take probably a threehour biography of myself to lead
up with the correct context toexplain what I'm about to
explain, but I'm just going totell you instead.
(26:22):
I think that I have thisconceptualization that it's good
or that it's fine.
There's nothing wrong with justhaving a job, just having a job
that supports your family andisn't your passion.
(26:45):
You know it's it.
It wasn't your dream, it's notwhat you love, but it's fine.
You're not miserable.
Everyone has aspects of theirjob that they don't like you
know, but you just do it.
I'm not talking about beingmiserable, but you know it's not
.
It wasn't your goal, it wasn't.
(27:12):
Well, maybe it was your goalbut it wasn't your passion.
You know, and I do think, ifI'm honest with myself, that
probably there's an aspect ofthat, or probably the biggest
aspect of the reason I have thatconceptualization or that idea.
My formative adolescent yearswere this contrast between the
(27:36):
chaos of, you know, my mom'sworld and, well, my, my dad
abandoning and the kind of whatI considered at the time, I
consider at the time, I considerat the time the square, stodgy,
boring, you know, consistentworld of my grandparents.
(27:59):
My grandpa, you know, mygrandpa has a.
You could describe his job orhis career as being cool.
He was a chemist, rocketchemist for Aerojet right.
I now would say he worked for aweapons manufacturer, but that's
cool.
I could say that's cool, butthat was never his.
(28:20):
It turned out he was just very,very good at math and he worked
his way into there without adegree or whatever you know, but
he was trying to make sure hisfamily didn't starve, and my
grandma too.
She was head legal analyst forinternal affairs for the
(28:40):
Department of Justice inCalifornia.
They called her the dragon ladybecause she was the one who
decided who they brought actionagainst inside the Department of
Justice for California.
That's a cool job.
That was later in life.
She just was trying to makesure her kids didn't starve, and
that her grandkids had a roof.
There's this scene from that70s show that I love and Krista
(29:07):
and I always talk about it,where Kitty and Red are the main
parents there.
And then there's the, there'sthe uh, the neighbors that they
have, and the neighbor is bob,who the show is supposed to.
He's like a business owner, he'swealthy and his wife is
portrayed as like well, she's astay-at-home mom, but she's
portrayed as kind of being kindof ditzy also and but then she
(29:29):
goes through kind of becauseit's that 70s show.
She goes through kind of abecause it's that 70s show.
She goes through kind of thistime period where she wants to
have women's liberation, right.
This is the idea, that's theplot device.
So she's sitting with Kitty andthey're talking and she says
Kitty, how did you get red tolet you go to work?
Because Kitty works, how didyou get red to let you go to
(29:51):
work?
And Kitty goes well, and thatKitty way is fantastic, she goes
well.
One day we were sitting at thekitchen table and we went we
can't pay our mortgage and thatwas that's it.
There's no ideology, it's justwe're just trying to keep our
kids alive, but okay, so that'sa long-winded way of saying and
(30:15):
if I'm being honest with myself,that's probably an
identification that I'm havingwith my grandparents.
You know, once I became kind ofa young adult in the rejection
or you know kind of picking oneside.
Speaker 5 (30:34):
Okay, a couple notes.
One is, I think, that what hasbeen co-opted by the consumerist
portion of our society is thatfinding yourself equals
happiness.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
I think that's a misconception.
Okay Right, because I thinkthat if you look at what finding
yourself means, it has more todo with personal fulfillment and
having a meaningful life.
That doesn't mean happy.
All right.
I think happiness is somethingthat you can have within that,
and I think that happiness issomething that does come with
(31:17):
self-awareness, finding yourselfright.
So, for example, let's just saythat your ideology is that
fulfilling and meaningful lifeis providing for the family.
Then, all of a sudden, as youprovide for family and you
(31:38):
realize that that's meaningfuland that's fulfilling, then all
of a sudden you can actuallyfind joy in that.
Yeah, however you want to word,it is actually doing us a
disfavor by taking this truth ofbeing able to self-actualize,
(32:03):
find self, and hascommercialized it in such a way
that now it means to be happy,right, and so I can run off and
I can be artsy, fartsy, whatever.
I want to be Right, and, andall anyone ever wants to be, is
that Right, and I think that Ithink there, therein lies the
(32:25):
problem.
I can remember being told whenI was younger and again you talk
about the 70s show Um, Iwatched it, but I lived it.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Right, right.
Speaker 5 (32:35):
My neighbor, her like what was?
Uh, it was red and um, and whatwas her name?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Kitty, kitty.
Speaker 5 (32:42):
Yeah, my neighbor, her, her name was Cookie.
Right, I mean it's a seventiesthing, right, yeah, yeah.
And um and so, yeah, very muchsome of the moms stayed at home,
most of the moms stayed at homeand all that kind of stuff All
right.
But I can remember, like in theeighties, being told that if
you can find something that youlove, you'll never work a day in
your life.
(33:02):
That's right, right, yep and um,and.
But this is what my experiencehas been is that if you take a
hobby and you and you decidethat you're going to try to
monetize it and live off of it,it becomes work, and the moment
it becomes work, it becomesdrudgery and it's no longer fun.
(33:22):
The actual joy comes from thefact that I don't depend on it
for my living, and so, in orderfor me then to be able to
self-actualize myself, I had torealize, maybe, that not
everything is run off to newyork city or la or wherever, and
(33:45):
and then become this thing.
But it's that.
Part of it is that there aregoing to be hobbies that I'm
going to have a lot of joy in,but my but part of life is being
able to fill a role for thepeople that I love and that I'm
connected to, and so maybe partof it is I'm going to be a
(34:12):
financial advisor for people,and then on the weekends or some
nights during the week, I'mgoing to paint D&D figures, and
that's going to be somethingthat really brings me joy, and
when I realized that I thatthose are the things that make
me happy, uh and, and it's notthat I enjoy, um, you know,
(34:34):
getting up and going to anoffice every day, but I enjoy
knowing that my kids are goingto have something to eat.
I find that fulfilling that my,my, my, uh, my family is going
to have a roof over their head.
That's that's important to me,that that's actually the process
of cutting through the, thegarbage and the connecting of
the two right.
(34:54):
So back to young, this idea ofthis process of the conscious
and the unconscious.
So maybe what it is is actuallycutting through what the
consumerist society tells us.
It means to self-actualize andbeing able to.
You have to connect both andsay that's actually not it at
(35:18):
all.
Both and say that's actuallynot it at all.
But I can still.
I can find fulfillment inmeaning I can know who I am.
I just have to actually be ableto shut that other stuff out.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
So it reminds me.
I like that a lot.
It reminds me of a clip that Isaved peterson that, where he
talks about this, um kind ofthing.
He talks about this all thetime, actually in different ways
, but I've got the clip I tellyoung men it's like find
something difficult to do.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
You need that.
You're not built for comfort orpleasure, like if that comes
along good, if you have a daywhere you're comfortable and
there's some things around youthat give pleasure, have some
sense and enjoy it.
But don't be thinking that'swhat your life is aimed at.
That's contemptible.
Everyone knows that.
And if they orient themselvesin that hedonistic direction,
(36:11):
there's nothing in it but shame.
No one is proud of themselvesfor using pornography.
They might screech and bitchabout their rights to do it.
I can live whatever lifestyle Iwant.
It's like well, first of all,no, you can't.
That doesn't work.
It won't work for you becauseyou can't sell yourself out, and
it won't work for other people.
(36:31):
When I tell people this, theaudiences always go dead silent.
It's like the adventure in yourlife will be found in
responsibility.
No one ever hears that.
We haven't told young peoplethat for like 60 years you pick
up the cross and shoulder ituphill, because that's where all
the meaning in your life willbe derived from.
(36:52):
It's in the difficulty, it's inthe responsibility.
It's not in the hedonisticself-gratification.
People just get what they wantall the time, immediately.
It's not like that ennoblestheir character, like obviously
not your character is made nobleby sacrifice, by the delay of
(37:27):
having happiness.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
That there's nothing wrong with happiness.
That if you get happiness, youfind yourself happy.
Margaritas on the beach enjoythat?
Yeah, like don't there's.
You should.
You should have enough sense,as he says.
Have enough sense to enjoy thatfor all it's worth.
Yeah, but that that is a um.
(37:54):
It's not meaningless, it is aninfinitesimally small fraction
of your life, and that the wayto find meaning in your life is
to pick up responsibility, andthat that is going to be an
endless well of meaning for you.
That that is, and he talksabout this sometimes.
I don't think in this clip hedoesn't talk about it, but he
(38:15):
talks about how you know.
Talk about it, but he talksabout how you know how you greet
your spouse when you come inthe door every day.
That's like you know.
You add up those moments ofjust greeting your spouse every
time you see your spouse.
That's a huge percentage ofyour life, you know.
Sharing a meal with your family, that's a huge percentage of
(38:38):
your life.
You know the time that youspend, you know sharing a meal
with your family, that's a hugepercentage of your life.
You know the, the time that youspend.
You know what pick your thing,the time that you spend in your
church, that's a huge percentageof your life.
You know, again, compared tomargaritas on the beach,
metaphorically, and that thoseare the things that seem mundane
, but that's really where theyou know the meaning can come
(39:00):
from your life.
So I mean, I think he'sprobably saying a similar thing
that what you're saying, whichis there, is this, there is
something real to the you, butmaybe the thing that the
consumerist culture has done ishijacked that sense.
And then, um, given you, uh, atold you that that the end of
(39:26):
the rainbow is going to be ahedonistic kind of pleasure
center and that it can provideit.
If you would just identify withthis, you know what kind of car
?
Well, that's the.
That's the.
That is one of the fundamentalum uh um messages of the movie
fight club.
Right I.
I sat there looking at the greatmovie at the catalog and
(39:49):
wondering, uh, what coffee tabledefines me as an individual?
You know I'm sure I'm sayingthe wrong.
Maybe said refrigerator,whatever, but that's what you
know.
He's talking about ourconsumerist culture giving us
our identity through the thingsthat it can sell us.
And again I just want to say,again I will defend to my last
(40:11):
breath that that is not inherent.
To don't think that consumerismitself is only negative.
I think that our consumeristculture provides an enormous
amount of benefit as well, butit also comes.
I think everything istrade-offs.
Speaker 5 (40:29):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
It comes with some pretty significant negatives.
Speaker 5 (40:34):
I want to take this one step further.
Yeah, the role that and I thinkthat I'm actually going to come
back around to where you are,just maybe from a different
perspective on it.
I think that the consumeristsociety has made it necessary to
have conversations about beingable to find yourself.
(40:58):
Oh, how, so Okay about beingable to find yourself.
Oh how?
So okay, because, um, youmentioned how it's.
Uh, it only seems.
It seems that, like some othercultures or maybe I, maybe I
misunderstood you but like, um,if I let's say, uh, you go, you
can go back to Hunter Gathereror something like that, they
(41:24):
don't take the time to findthemselves.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Right, because they know who they are.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
Yes, because no one else was telling them that
actually this is who you areRight, that actually this is who
you are right, and so whathappens is, by taking this truth
, I even have okay the airquotes right, yeah, yeah.
That there is a self, but wehave now made it more about
(41:56):
having fun, being happy, findingfulfillment through stuff,
instead of in providing andcontributing to the tribe.
Whatever the case may be thatnow there's an actual process
that some people have to gothrough in order to be like well
(42:18):
, who am I, what am I?
And it's not.
I think that the real processthen becomes in being able to
step away and think criticallyabout the consumerist society
that we live in, where it wasn'tnecessary before because I knew
very well who I was.
My role in this community, inthis tribe, is this, and that is
(42:41):
very fulfilling for me, becauseI'd have no other noise telling
me no, it's actually going tohappen if you buy this Jeep.
No, it's actually going tohappen if you move to New York
City and you, um, well, I wasjust going about to describe, um
, bob Dylan's life, right orlike.
Well, I was just about todescribe Bob Dylan's life right
(43:02):
or like, and.
Bob Dylan's life as weunderstand, that was the
ultimate finding yourself right.
Well, and.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
I don't know Bob Dylan.
Speaker 5 (43:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
He's not my friend Right.
He's not my brother Sure, he'snot my son Sure, which means
that when I Lucas Lucas says BobDylan's life, I am talking
about a marketing campaign.
That's what I'm talking about,absolutely.
So his life really is justanother aspect of this.
Speaker 5 (43:32):
Yeah, because then what happens is, if I want to so
, then I think, well, what'llhappen is, in order to find
myself, I need to model my lifeafter this advertising campaign,
right, and so what I'm sayingis that I wouldn't.
I wouldn't perpetrated.
(43:52):
How about?
Finding yourself is a lie, it'sperpetrated.
Finding yourself is a lie.
It's perpetrated.
It's definitely cashed in on byour consumerist culture.
How are you using perpetrated?
Because I'm trying to see if Iagree with you, even though I
came at it from a completelydifferent perspective.
(44:13):
I mean, I did start off with theidea that, because you said
that you had a problem both withfinding yourself and are
finding and yourself.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah, I say on on a philosophical level.
The idea of a, of a self that'sfixed, that that you could get
wrong, seems counterintuitive tome.
That doesn't make any sense tome.
(44:42):
How could like?
How could that be?
I am what I am, right.
Myself is the conglomeration ofall of my activities and
thoughts and feelings andeverything.
Right.
That seems like what it is andso I did start.
I mean, I meant it as findingyourself is a lie.
Speaker 5 (45:05):
That's a lie that's what I read it as yeah and
that's how I meant it.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Um, and there's still some part of me that feels like
that is that I don't want towalk away from that completely,
although I am softening a littlebit.
I think that when I was younger, my late 20s and through my 30s
(45:31):
, I would have talked aboutindividualism as being the
highest ideal, right, right.
Big fan of ayn rand.
I'm still a big fan of ayn rand, um, and so this idea that that
(45:53):
I am who I am separate from thegroup right.
The group does not haveauthority over me.
I reject that right again.
If I'm being honest, thatprobably comes from some
conglomeration of childhoodexperiences and leading me up to
that point I'm thinking you hadmentioned one time before that
your fifth generationcalifornian.
Speaker 5 (46:14):
I would say that's probably built into your dna at
this point because knowing thepeople that settled california.
It makes sense to me that thatwould be something that is just
inherently who you are.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yeah, and I grew up with grandparents my grandfather
that raised me, he was thefirst one, you know.
His dad was an immigrant fromthe Azores.
So, even though it's not like Iwas from an immigrant,
immigrant family, that's notwhat I'm trying to say but I
grew up with kind of the lore ofbeing produced from immigrant
(46:49):
family, from an immigrant familylike the people who were like
we will leave, we will go findthe place that we need to be in
for the sake of our family andwhat you know, whatever.
So, yeah, there's probably someof that built in.
There's also, um, you know, uh,a a bristling at authority, you
(47:12):
know, um, so there's a lot ofthings that probably is baked
into that.
But, um, but I had this likereal.
That's the highest ideal, youknow.
But I can't deny when I wouldread about people who joined
(47:42):
communist movements throughoutthe 20th century and what their
life was like and I'm talkingabout communist movements in
countries where it meantsomething not being a communist
in the United States, where youcould get blacklisted.
Yes, bad things happen, sure but, by and large, you're not going
to get jailed and also you'renot going to get executed for
being a communist.
I'm talking about people whosomeone finds out you're a
communist and you will betortured and executed, right.
(48:03):
And these people, when theywould join these movements, from
the moment they woke up to whenthey laid their head back down,
they knew exactly what theywere doing and what their
purpose was.
They had committed themselvesto this grander thing.
You know they had committedthemselves to this grander thing
(48:41):
.
You know um and it and it gavethem a sense of it's, it's
almost joy to, and and they'reliving in squalor, going,
working in wherever it is, youknow, doing, doing whatever it
is that they had that they gotassigned to do.
You know, you find this in um,in partisan groups that are um,
that are working behind thelines during wartime.
Um, when they've committedthemselves to the cause, um.
You know this idea, this, thissense that I've given myself
wholly to this movement or thisgroup, to this movement or this
(49:08):
group, I've divested myself ofmy individualism completely.
It brings with it a certainlevel of kind of euphoria that I
think has to be, probablybecause there's some part of us
that wants to, like you weretalking about in the
hunter-gatherer society wants toknow, like I don't even have to
talk about it, I am this, I amthis part of my community.
My identity comes from theplace that I am in in my
(49:32):
community, but we don't.
There's no need for that in oursociety.
There is no need to be a partof any community in our society
in order to continue livingright, and so then you can have
this hyper individualityindividuality.
Speaker 5 (49:47):
And that's getting worse.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Which to your point, then the advertising campaigns
can come in and give you youridentity, because your identity
is not inherent right.
It's not inherent that I am.
What's my identity?
Well, I am the son of my fatherand I am the husband of my wife
(50:09):
and I am the father of my, youknow what I mean.
Like I have my place and that'sit.
I don't even know what theconversation is.
Speaker 5 (50:14):
You know and I find joy when we get together and we
have our meals and I find joywhen we have provided you know,
we put meat on the table, and Ifind joy in seeing that my
children are taken care of andyeah, right, right, and there's
no sense, or at least therewould be a lot less sense.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
I think, in a situation like that, that
there's something missing, thatthere's a part of me that's deep
inside of my psyche that ismissing something.
You know that really, I am thetype of person that would rather
(50:58):
deal with brown rocks insteadof gray rocks when we're doing,
when you know, when we're youknow, whatever.
Like there's no.
All of those choices I thinkcome from.
All those choices are able tobe presented and taken seriously
when you pull the individualout of their context.
(51:21):
You know, I think maybe.
So I guess I'm just lessindividualistic now, even though
I still I'm not going to let goof it.
It's still part of mypersonality, yeah, but.
Speaker 5 (51:33):
I, I'm a.
I'm a uh, what would be theopposite of a?
Uh, I'm a tribalist.
I am a community orientedperson.
Um, I find I find myfulfillment and meaning in the
(51:59):
community and in creatingcommunity.
So anyway, um, did we find anycommon ground here?
Speaker 3 (52:09):
I think we're a lot closer, that, um, that I think
there's probably something to.
I definitely think that there,um, there is something to the
process of inner searching, youknow, uh, of self.
And I certainly agree with youthat our consumerist society, I
(52:35):
think, I think maybe I'll softenand I don't think that that the
whole finding yourself thingwas perpetrated by our
consumerist society, I think I,I think I'm a little bit more on
your side that it, that it'shijacked or appropriated or
whatever word you want to usefor that it's, it's using that,
that kind of sense and drive I,I, I would agree.
Speaker 5 (52:56):
So here's what I would say.
I think the finding portion ofit is, um, the result of the, uh
, our, within our culture, causeI would be interested in
knowing too, like is that?
Is it uniquely Western, umculture that has this finding
yourself thing?
(53:17):
And so I would say that thatour, as individualism has
expanded, the idea of findinghas become a thing, and then I
think that consumerism iscashing in on it.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
Yeah, it would be an interesting exploration to look
at, I would say, in particular,roman society, because I think
that Roman society has a lot ofanalogies to our current society
.
I know I'm not unique in sayingthat, but I think that that is
interesting.
However, I wonder if it doeshave something to do with our
(53:55):
kind of unique blend of beingenlightenment plus
industrialized, you know, andthe opportunities for
consumerism from there.
I don't know, because there wasa lot of industrial production
during most of the Roman Empire.
(54:16):
Stuff that surprised me when Ifound out about it, like mines
and again things that seemedkind of Henry Ford production
line type production of likepottery and stuff, you know.
But anyway, yeah, that would beinteresting Good topic Yep.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
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Ground.
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