July 10, 2024 • 36 mins
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Join us on this compelling episode of Living Reconciled as we take a look at the 4th of July through the powerful words of Frederick Douglass. Neddie and Brian delve into Douglass's life and his iconic speech, "The Meaning of July the 4th for the Negro," delivered in 1852. Tune in for a great discussion on the broader implications of freedom, particularly around Juneteenth and the 4th of July, and how we can renew our understanding of unity in America.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on episode 55 of Living
(00:32):
Reconciled.
My name is Brian Crawford and Iserve as the host, and I'm with
my co-host and great friend,Nettie Winters Nettie- how are
you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm doing great, man.
I am actually really excitedabout the podcast today.
I'm excited the fact that we'recelebrating the 4th of July in
a few days or a few months, Idon't know.
Let me leave that alone.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yes, we are celebrating the 4th of July,
nettie, and that makes for aninteresting discussion today.
First, before we get too farinto that discussion, I do want
to give a quick shout out tosome friends and supporters of
this podcast, folks like Nissan,st Dominic's Hospital, atmos
Energy Regions Foundation, brownMissionary Baptist Church,
christian Life Church, ms DorisPowell, mr Robert Ward, ms Ann
(01:26):
Winters.
Thank you so much foreverything that you do.
It's because of what you dothat we're able to do what we do
.
And while I have you guys, letme point you to September, the
26th of 2024.
It's a special day for usbecause we will be hosting a
celebration, 31 years here atMission Mississippi, in which we
(01:46):
have been on the journey ofpursuing racial healing and
Christian reconciliation in thisstate and abroad.
One of the ways in which weculminate that work is the
Living Reconciled Celebration,and that's taking place at the
Brandon Civic Center inMississippi on September the
26th.
It will be a conference andbanquet all on that day, and we
(02:10):
would love for you guys to comeand join us.
Our theme for this year isliving reconciled by loving all
our neighbors, and we would lovefor you to come and join us as
we talk about all thingsneighboring and reconciliation.
On that day there's going to begreat dialogue, great
discussion we may even record apodcast while we're there and
(02:33):
we're going to have a greatcelebration that evening with
great food, and we want you tobe a part of that Again.
September, the 26th, livingReconciled Celebration Brandon
Civic Center.
We would love for you to comeand join us.
Ticket information can bereached or can be had by
reaching out to us at grace atMission, mississippi dot O-R-G.
(02:59):
A little bit about FrederickDouglass's speech, nettie, that
he shared on July the 5th of1852.
And the speech was entitled theMeaning of July the 4th for the
Negro.
I thought it would be importantfor us Nettie to take a moment
(03:20):
to dive into Douglass's speechand his thoughts here, because
oftentimes there is tension inthe celebration of the 4th of
July.
There's this holiday in whichwe're celebrating the
independence of America fromGreat Britain.
(03:42):
That was a time in which therewas tyranny that the colonists
were trying to break away from,and they did and they celebrated
, and that breaking away fromthat tyranny is celebrated
through the Fourth of Julycelebrations.
But there's tension in that attimes there's some people who
(04:04):
say I'm not all that excitedabout celebrating the 4th of
July and I think better thanmost Douglass, gets underneath
why that tension exists.
And so I wanted to have aconversation about Douglass's
speech that, hopefully, mayshine a little light on that
(04:25):
tension and may help us, even aswe begin to enter into our
holiday celebration for the 4thof July, help us think more
reflectively and more soberly onthe cost of freedom and the
price of freedom for all.
And so, nettie, as you thinkabout Douglass' speech, the
(04:48):
meaning of the 4th of July, orthe meaning of July the 4th for
the Negro, talk to me about someof those immediate things that
stand out for you about Douglasson that day.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
You know what stands out to me in Douglass' speech as
part of my history ofcelebrating the 4th of July.
One of the ironic things hesays is that the 4th of July is
not the 4th of July.
Talking to the slave owners andother free folks white folks
specifically said the 4th ofJuly doesn't include me.
(05:23):
So, therefore, why are youasking me to celebrate something
that does not include me?
Here you are celebrating thefreedom from the tyranny of the
British, from England, but atthe same time, you're all slaves
and I'm a slave and I had to.
You know, what was reallyironic to me is that he had to
(05:43):
flee to keep his freedom to thevery place that we're
celebrating separating from.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
That's a big piece of information that people don't
know about Douglass.
By the way, the British boughthis freedom Right.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
They gave him the ability to learn how to read and
write and speak, and if youlistened to his speech, you
understand that it's got this.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
British flavor.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, it's British flavor and tone and you know
people would see it here today.
They would say, where are youfrom?
I know you're not from aroundhere, you know, are you a United
States citizen?
Are you a British citizen?
Because you know they wouldhave that accent.
So the challenge in all of thisand his speech and things like
(06:30):
that's been a tension for me andfor other folks as
African-Americans for a longtime is that here we are
celebrating the 4th of Julysince 1870.
Are you listening to me?
1870.
And we really just got where wecan have some sense of
celebration.
In the 1960s in the UnitedStates of America we could
(06:54):
celebrate the fact that therehad to be a forced legislation
of the United States of Americathat's been celebrating their
freedom from British since 1870.
America that's been celebratingtheir freedom from British
since 1870.
But in the 1964-65 civil rightsthere had to be forced
legislation in a sense for us toeven have the right to vote,
the right to look like we'recitizens, to act like we're
(07:16):
citizens, and only then it was aprecondition on how we could
celebrate preconditions on.
It was a precondition on how wecould celebrate preconditions
on.
So when I read his speech andthen I think about Juneteenth.
You know we talked aboutJuneteenth, sure, in the last
episode, right, and so you knowI was talking about that.
Juneteenth ought to be aprelude to July 4th, absolutely
(07:37):
so.
When I hear Douglas say what hesays about what does the 4th of
July mean to?
At that time we were Negroes.
We're African-Americans.
Today, we made some progress.
Thank you for that, you canadmit it.
So I'm thinking when I listento Frederick Douglass, I'm
listening to an eloquent,articulate young man.
(08:00):
What?
27 years old.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
At the time when he shared thatmessage in 52, he was actually
a 34, but still a very young man.
What 27 years old?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
At the time when he shared thatmessage in 52, he was actually
a 34, but still a very young man.
Very young man, but anyway.
But here's a man that was howdo I put this His ancestor and
his fellow citizens, as itrelates to slavery and things,
was being beat and tormented ifthey were caught trying to read
or write or articulatethemselves, and so the irony of
(08:29):
him being invited to speak onthe 4th of July was like really,
is that injury, uh, insult toinjury, right, a kind of thing,
and he refuses to speak on the4th?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
of July.
Right doesn't speak on the 4thof July, but Right doesn't speak
on the 4th of July, but insteadon July the 5th.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
July, the 5th because he said it would be well.
He didn't say it like this, butmy point being that for him to
make this speech on the 4th ofJuly would have been
hypocritical.
He could make it on July the5th, because it was not the
celebration of the UnitedStates' freedom.
So he says you know I freedom.
So he says you know, I don'twant to do it on the fourth
because there's still people inthis country Insular got free
(09:08):
Right, particularly my kinsmenRight Right.
He himself was only affordedthis because the British had
freed him, not because theUnited States had freed him.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, back up a little bit.
So in 1818, frederick Douglassis born, and he is born into
slavery, absolutely 1818.
And he remains a slave all theway through 1838.
Not because he's freed, butbecause at age 20, he escapes
(09:38):
from slavery dressed as a sailor, and so, somehow, being dressed
as a sailor, escapes slavery,ends up in new york city, where
he's there for a time and thenjoins a uh, abolition,
abolitionist movement.
And then, once he joins theabolitionist movement,
eventually he writes his ownbiography, uh, the narrative of
(09:59):
frederick douglas, which gainedso much popularity that the
danger of him being returnedback to slavery increases.
And so, just a few years later,he has to flee the country.
And where he goes to like yousaid, nettie, the irony of it
all goes to Britain, and therehe finds refuge.
Tell me, god doesn't have asense of humor, man.
(10:21):
So he finds refuge in Britain,and then he remains.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Hold on, think about that, what you just said.
They invite him to speak on the4th of July, where they're
celebrating freedom from theBritish.
Here he is in Britain andgetting the same emancipation
that supposedly the 4th of Julyrepresent for the United States,
for the people.
You can't make this stuff up.
(10:47):
It's like okay, here I am withthe British, and the American
folks are celebrating the factthat they've won their freedom
from the British, and here theBritish is giving me sanctity
and safety and freedom that Ican't enjoy in this new America.
They're celebrating Get awayfrom you guys.
You guys are giving me whatthey fought so hard for,
(11:08):
absolutely, and instead of themexercising that for all the
citizens, black or white orHispanic or whatever the case
might be, they've enslaved theminority or the African-American
folks.
And here I am fleeing for mylife in Britain, the very place
I can't.
I just that just blows my mind.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, you and you just only scratched the surface,
and that is they.
They, the British, as youmentioned earlier buy his
freedom back, which is why he'sable to return to America.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Right.
That's the only reason he'sable to return back to America,
because they buy it.
And still, when he gets back toAmerica, even though they
bought his freedom back, that hehas freedom now out of the free
prison, he's not enslavedanymore quote, unquote but he
still is treated as though he isenslaved or treated less than
the first class citizenship thatafforded him by being brought
out of slavery.
He doesn't get that.
(12:06):
And then he's invited,ironically, to speak on the 4th
of July.
Douglass makes his speech.
He says okay, y'all hadopportunity.
My word's not here, but inessence he said y'all had
opportunity to do what theBritain did for me with my
(12:29):
linkage.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, so he's here 1852, just 13 years before the,
or actually June, 13 yearsbefore Juneteenth, actually only
11 years before theEmancipation Proclamation in 63.
But in 52, he's making thisspeech ironically right after
(12:53):
the Declaration of Independenceis read.
So that's the backdrop.
There's this ceremony wherewe're celebrating the
Declaration of Independence.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
You know two things.
Again, I think this is aninsult to injury.
They're going to read theDeclaration of Independence and
then look at him and say it'sall you Doug.
And Doug is like what is this?
You're going to read a documentthat gives you freedom and then
(13:26):
you're going to invite me tofollow that when I don't have
the freedom that you have.
He says in the.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
In the speech Frederick Douglass makes, that
draws that line of distinction.
Eddie, he says why am I calledupon to speak here today?
What have I or those Irepresent to do with your
national independence?
Are the great principles ofpolitical freedom and of natural
justice embodied in thatDeclaration of Independence
extended to us, and am Itherefore called upon to bring
our humble offering to thenational altar and to confess
(14:03):
the benefits of expressed devoutgratitude for the blessings
resulting from your independenceto us?
And so, just out of the gate,douglas makes the point of
asking why does the 4th of Julymean anything for the African
(14:25):
slave, the black slave,african-american?
Why would it mean anything inthis moment, given the
conditions that we are facedwith?
Why would it mean anything forthem?
And then he says this just afew moments later.
He says such is not the case,meaning that, no, I'm not free
(14:48):
and those that I represent arenot free.
He says I say it with a sadsense of disparity between us.
I am not included within thepale of glorious anniversary.
Your high independence onlyreveals the immeasurable
distance between us.
The blessings in which you thisday rejoice are not enjoyed in
common the rich inheritance ofjustice and liberty and
(15:11):
prosperity and independencequeefed by your fathers is
shared by you, not by me.
The sunlight that brought lightand healing to you has brought
stripes and death to me.
This 4th of July is yours, notmine.
You may rejoice, but I mustmourn.
And to drag a man in fettersinto the grand illuminated
(15:33):
temple of liberty and call uponhim to join you in joyous
anthems were inhuman mockery andsacrilegious irony.
Do you mean citizens to mock meby asking me to speak today?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
End quote by asking me to speak today, end quote.
In other words, he's saying theultimate insult, the audacity
of this, because you know, hewas speaking to the white
audience, not to theAfrican-American audience, and I
think it was a group of bothAfrican-Americans and white that
invited him to come speak.
(16:09):
Abolitionist movement, rightand so.
But even at the same time, theabolitionist white folks in the
room was advocating for freedomand whatever else.
He's kind of giving them a parttoo.
Yeah, he poking at them too.
If you really appreciated theposition that you put me in, or
(16:30):
understanding my plight of howI'm seeing, maybe you shouldn't
have read that thing just beforeI got here.
You shouldn't have read theDeclaration of Independence and
talk about all the freedom andrights to happiness and all of
these great things which I donot have access to.
(16:51):
But she invited me to comespeak.
Okay, let me just let you haveit then, right?
So if you're going to put me inthis position, I cannot resist
the urge to let you know what Ireally think.
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:05):
But go ahead, doug, tell him what you think and he
did, he did, he did, and part ofthe mastery of his speech that
day was to help those that werein the audience be forced to
look at the plight of anotherRight.
So we're not going to justsimply celebrate without looking
(17:27):
at the horrors and the plightof another.
Looking at the horrors and theplight of another, and this
speech is going to force you toreckon not just with your own
freedom, but with also thebondage in which others are
experiencing while you celebrateyour freedom from bondage.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, you know what he's saying.
It's great in one sense that wecelebrate Absolutely we
celebrate, he said.
That's a great thing but at thesame time, have some sense as
wisdom and some concern and carefor those that don't have this
freedom.
Maybe you might not want to goon a plantation and say to the
(18:24):
folks let's celebrate the 4th ofJuly.
You might want to go on aplantation and say to them I'm
going to do everything I can toget you in a position that you
can enjoy, and I think that'sthe reason we're talking about
it today.
What can we do to help everycitizen enjoy the benefits of a
Fourth of July?
(18:44):
Since we've been enslavedbefore doing it after 1776,
since we've been enslaved beforedoing it after 1776, we really
don't have the insight, theunderstanding, the expressions
of, even internally, to have ajoy in our hearts of celebration
(19:05):
when we don't benefit from thatwhich we are celebrating.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
That goes back to the conversation we had a few weeks
ago about freedom, the story offreedom being on a continuum.
It's absolute.
It was a journey, and so whenwe think about the 4th of July,
we should think about it as partof the journey.
We shouldn't think about it asthe end, because, as you
mentioned, 1776, thatDeclaration of Independence was
(19:32):
signed, but there's a whole 87years before that other document
was signed, the EmancipationProclamation, and another two
years, two and a half, before13th Amendment is ratified, and
then all the other things thatcome after that right.
And so the Declaration ofIndependence of 1776 and the
(19:56):
document that signifies ourcelebration of the July, of
Fourth of July, was only onedocument in a long journey
towards freedom for all people,and Douglass' is highlighting
that in the clearest of terms.
You know, when I read Douglass'speech, I think about what we've
(20:17):
been talking about a lot thisyear this call by God for us to
love our neighbor as ourselves,and I think you and I had this
conversation earlier One of themost difficult tasks and
assignments that God has givenus is to love our neighbor as
ourselves, because we have tosee our neighbor with the same
(20:37):
value and worth that we see us,and Douglas is kind of bringing
that to bear on this audience.
In this speech, you guys arecelebrating your freedom, and
rightly so.
Freedom is a good thing for you, but to love your neighbor as
(20:58):
yourself.
In fact, douglass spends a lotof time talking about the
talking about the spiritualhypocrisy, not just a political
hypocrisy, you know, in thecountry, continental hypocrisy,
but he spends a lot of timetalking about the religious
hypocrisy in this speech as well.
In this speech as well, becausehe's saying you're missing the
opportunity to see the African,african-american slave in the
(21:18):
image of God and as your brother, a person that is that you're
supposed to love like you loveyou.
And if you love them like youlove you, then, as you celebrate
this independence, you shouldnot be content with seeing them
in chains, but you should becelebrating this independence
while fighting relentlessly fortheir independence.
(21:41):
And so even today, nettie, youknow, just, you know, fast
forwarding, fast forwarding into21st century, fast forwarding
into 21st century, lovingneighbor, seeing ourselves in
the neighbors around us, isstill one of the most difficult
tasks and assignments that Godhas given us.
(22:05):
To enjoy our freedoms, to enjoyall sorts of things while
having basically a cognitivedissonance and as it relates to
what everybody else around us isexperiencing whether it be
(22:26):
poverty, whether it be lack offreedom, whether it be hardships
, suffering it can be easy tooeasy at times for us to not love
our neighbor well, in thatsense where we enjoy and we
celebrate all these things thatare happening for us, while
being completely dismissive ofthe plight of our brothers and
sisters around us.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
In our study of the book of the cast.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Isabel Wilkerson's cast.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Right.
What she described is not herbook.
She described what realitytalks about as to her relation
to the caste system and in thatshe describes how slaves are
being beaten andlife-threatening to their way of
being if they don't act like acertain way or do things a
certain way.
(23:11):
Or do things a certain way haveto act happy, yeah, act happy,
be thankful that the fact thatyou were a slave.
Grateful, yeah, you ought to begrateful and wow that's.
And if you don't, we beat youuntil you do or kill you.
And when I think about all ofthis stuff surrounding freedom
(23:34):
and how that should work out.
God, you said, gave us anassignment to love our neighbors
as ourselves.
What God's word articulates forme?
This isn't something from God,but what it articulates for me
when the love of God in youcauses you to think and act like
(23:55):
God, this would not be an issue.
So, loving your neighbor asyourself, or Jesus says in John
13, 34 and 35, that love oneanother as I have loved you.
In other words, we ought to beexpressing the love and
(24:15):
compassion and all the grace andmercy that God has extended to
me.
I ought to be celebrating thefact that I can extend that to
you which raises neighbor loveto a whole nother level.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
This is one thing to see.
It's one thing for me to seeNettie as I see me.
It's a whole nother thing forme to see Nettie as God sees me
Sees, nettie, and you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
And so Jesus says they will recognize your
Christianity, your discipleshipof me or in me.
They are recognized that byyour love for one another.
So one of the deep, penetratingdiscipleship characteristic of
(24:58):
a follower of Christ is that youlove those who love you but,
more important, you got to lovethose who hate you, love those
that despise you, that do evil.
Pray for those.
You got to do all these thingsto be recognized as that.
And so Doug's point in all ofthis, and our point in having
this discussion, is that we aremissing the mark as Christians
(25:21):
in a big way, as it relates tocelebrating, on the one hand,
the freedom and enjoyment andthe benefits of one class of
folks or one society of folkssimply because of the color of
your skin, and watching in thatcelebration how other people
don't have that benefit becauseof the laws or the policies or
(25:43):
these United States of America,how we have man.
That's to me it's like youalready enjoy and celebrate the
freedom you have for me, evenallowing you to do what you do,
whatever status or place in lifeyou are.
You ought to be excited tocelebrate that, because I can
(26:04):
make it worse, and you ought tobe thanking me that I haven't
made it worse this discussionabout Juneteenth, the discussion
about the 4th of July.
Listening to the speech byDouglas, it moves me to work
even harder.
It moves me to celebrate evenharder.
It moves me to see everybody'slife and a lot of people are
(26:26):
celebrating the 4th of July,actually doing it with sincerity
, holding us apart, anticipating, expecting and thinking that
everybody, including me, you andeverybody else, regardless of
your ancestry or your history,and all of this, that everybody
has a privilege now of beingfree, and so forth.
But that simply is not the case.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Still a journey, right's still a journey.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Right, it's still a journey, and you know hopefully
this podcast would help somefolks rethink, research and
revise or renew their vision andtheir celebration of Juneteenth
and July 4th in a way that itbecomes an American history
(27:11):
celebration of freedom foreveryone, and that is one is.
You know, until everybody'sfree, nobody's free, and so
maybe this discussion that we'rehaving will call some folks out
there to rethink all of thisstuff and look at it from a
perspective that we're all onehere in America, especially when
it comes to the church and howthe church contributing to the
(27:32):
plight that Douglas talked aboutand when you said it was done
1852.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, 1852.
Yeah, you know, Douglas doesn'tleave us without hope.
There's a passage here thatthat really kind of highlights
the fact that Douglas is notleaving us without hope.
There's a passage here thatreally kind of highlights the
fact that Douglas is not leavingus without hope.
Towards the end, he says inconclusion.
In fact, in conclusion, allowme to say, notwithstanding the
dark picture I have this daypresented of the state of the
(28:01):
nation, I do not despair of thiscountry.
There are forces in operationwhich must inevitably work the
downfall of slavery.
The arm of the Lord is notshortened and the doom of
slavery is certain.
I therefore leave off where Ibegan, with hope Absolute, While
(28:25):
drawing encouragement from theDeclaration of Independence, the
great principles it containsand the genius of American
institutions.
My spirit is also cheered by theobvious tendencies of the age.
Nations do not now stand in thesame relation to each other
that they did ages ago.
No nation can now shut itselfup from the surrounding world
(28:47):
and trout round in the samerelation to each other that they
did ages ago.
No nation can now shut itselfup from the surrounding world
and trout round in the same oldpath of his fathers without
interference.
The time was when such could bedone.
Long-established customs ofhurtful character could formally
fence themselves in and dotheir evil work with social
impunity.
Knowledge was then confided andenjoyed by a privileged few,
(29:09):
and the multitude walked on inmental darkness.
But a change has now come overthe affairs of mankind.
Walled cities and empires havebecome unfashionable.
The arm of commerce has borneaway the gates of the strong
city.
Intelligence is penetrating thedarkest corners of the globe.
It makes its pathway over andunder the sea as well as on the
(29:33):
earth.
Wind, steam and lightning areits chartered agents.
Oceans no longer divide butlink nations together.
From Boston to London is now aholiday excursion.
Space is comparativelyannihilated.
And so Douglas had this hopethat as the nations were growing
(29:58):
more advanced and people weregetting closer and sentiments
and thoughts were changing, thateven slavery too would meet its
end.
And, as we know, just 15 yearslater for Douglass we saw that
(30:25):
in.
We saw that that initial stepto the end of Independence in
his closing as a document whereits highest ideas are worth
protecting and seeing that allget a chance to reap the fruit.
That douglas highlights thatbecause it's a beautiful
document.
1776 is a beautiful document andthe celebration is a beautiful
(30:51):
celebration as long as we, whenwe celebrate, understand that we
are, that we have always beenoperating on a continuum and on
a journey towards freedom, andso 1776 wasn't the end of that
journey.
In fact, in many ways it wasjust the beginning.
It was just the beginning.
(31:11):
It was just the beginning, andso learning how to celebrate
these holidays with that kind ofunderstanding and that kind of
soberness or sobriety, rather, Ithink, is important as we think
about celebrating theseholidays, I think is important
as we think about celebratingthese holidays.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Absolutely, Brian.
I think Douglas said it bestwhen he said, even though I
painted a picture of how thedistinct difference between my
freedom and celebration and yourfreedom and celebration I'm
still on the journey towardsfreedom and I have hope that one
day I'll be there, similar toKing's speech.
So you know, and so as we joinit today, you know, at least
(31:53):
Juneteenth now is a holiday.
So we're on that continuum, asyou say, on this journey towards
freedom, and the founders of1776, when they did the
independence, declamation ofindependence, that they were
looking at it from thatperspective, that we're getting
(32:13):
there and we're on a journey andwe have the freedom that we
have today.
Not like ideally, like I don'tthink there is such thing in an
ideal sense but I'm challengedfrom the perspective of being a
Christian.
I'm challenging the Christiansfrom the perspective of
understanding Jesus's commandsand assignment to us that we
love one another as he has lovedus.
(32:34):
And you're right, Love yourneighbor as yourself is an
assignment from God and weshould be carrying that
assignment out with greatcelebrative opportunity because
we have received it.
We ought to be celebrating thefact that we have received it,
but also sharing in thatcelebration when making sure
others receive it as well, andthat we love one another as he
commanded us to love, and takethis assignment as loving your
(32:56):
neighbor seriously enough thatwe do that in a way that
highlights the reconciliation wehave in Christ.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Amen, amen.
When you think about Juneteenth, when you think about the 4th
of July, be reminded that thiscelebration of freedom is also a
call, amen.
It's a call to pursue thecommon flourishing and the good
and the peace and joy of notjust yourself and your home, and
(33:24):
even your neighborhood, yourown country, but to pursue it
wherever it may not exist and touse whatever time, talent and
treasure that the Lord is givingyou to participate in that call
.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
One final thing is that Douglass himself, as he
wrote this, alluded to the factthat I can celebrate, in a sense
, because we're moving toward acontinuum of freedom, but at the
same time, I have the freedom,and an example of the freedom
that I have is the fact that youwould invite me to come to
speak Absolutely On the 4th ofJuly.
And as today and as a Christian, we have reasons to celebrate
(34:01):
on the 4th of July.
Just understand that all thethings that surround the 4th of
July and how things havehappened is sometimes that's
where the tension follows.
And I'm saying celebrate thefact that we have the privilege
of the opportunity now maybe notthen, but now be celebrated as
free citizens, and that we havea charge and a ministry to go
(34:24):
forward and help others do thesame.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Amen.
Thank you, guys, so much againfor joining us on this episode.
Feel free to subscribe to ourpodcast.
Go to any podcast app.
Search for Living Reconciled.
You'll find us.
Subscribe but also, like ourepisodes, share our episodes
with friends, family, churchmembers, others who you believe
are passionate about the work ofreconciliation.
We would love and very muchappreciate if you would do that
(34:49):
for us.
It's been a great episode.
This is Brian Crawford with mygood friend Nettie Winters
signing off saying God bless,god bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
(35:10):
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
Thank you.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on episode 55 of Living
(00:32):
Reconciled.
My name is Brian Crawford and Iserve as the host, and I'm with
my co-host and great friend,Nettie Winters Nettie- how are
you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm doing great, man.
I am actually really excitedabout the podcast today.
I'm excited the fact that we'recelebrating the 4th of July in
a few days or a few months, Idon't know.
Let me leave that alone.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yes, we are celebrating the 4th of July,
nettie, and that makes for aninteresting discussion today.
First, before we get too farinto that discussion, I do want
to give a quick shout out tosome friends and supporters of
this podcast, folks like Nissan,st Dominic's Hospital, atmos
Energy Regions Foundation, brownMissionary Baptist Church,
christian Life Church, ms DorisPowell, mr Robert Ward, ms Ann
(01:26):
Winters.
Thank you so much foreverything that you do.
It's because of what you dothat we're able to do what we do
.
And while I have you guys, letme point you to September, the
26th of 2024.
It's a special day for usbecause we will be hosting a
celebration, 31 years here atMission Mississippi, in which we
(01:46):
have been on the journey ofpursuing racial healing and
Christian reconciliation in thisstate and abroad.
One of the ways in which weculminate that work is the
Living Reconciled Celebration,and that's taking place at the
Brandon Civic Center inMississippi on September the
26th.
It will be a conference andbanquet all on that day, and we
(02:10):
would love for you guys to comeand join us.
Our theme for this year isliving reconciled by loving all
our neighbors, and we would lovefor you to come and join us as
we talk about all thingsneighboring and reconciliation.
On that day there's going to begreat dialogue, great
discussion we may even record apodcast while we're there and
(02:33):
we're going to have a greatcelebration that evening with
great food, and we want you tobe a part of that Again.
September, the 26th, livingReconciled Celebration Brandon
Civic Center.
We would love for you to comeand join us.
Ticket information can bereached or can be had by
reaching out to us at grace atMission, mississippi dot O-R-G.
(02:59):
A little bit about FrederickDouglass's speech, nettie, that
he shared on July the 5th of1852.
And the speech was entitled theMeaning of July the 4th for the
Negro.
I thought it would be importantfor us Nettie to take a moment
(03:20):
to dive into Douglass's speechand his thoughts here, because
oftentimes there is tension inthe celebration of the 4th of
July.
There's this holiday in whichwe're celebrating the
independence of America fromGreat Britain.
(03:42):
That was a time in which therewas tyranny that the colonists
were trying to break away from,and they did and they celebrated
, and that breaking away fromthat tyranny is celebrated
through the Fourth of Julycelebrations.
But there's tension in that attimes there's some people who
(04:04):
say I'm not all that excitedabout celebrating the 4th of
July and I think better thanmost Douglass, gets underneath
why that tension exists.
And so I wanted to have aconversation about Douglass's
speech that, hopefully, mayshine a little light on that
(04:25):
tension and may help us, even aswe begin to enter into our
holiday celebration for the 4thof July, help us think more
reflectively and more soberly onthe cost of freedom and the
price of freedom for all.
And so, nettie, as you thinkabout Douglass' speech, the
(04:48):
meaning of the 4th of July, orthe meaning of July the 4th for
the Negro, talk to me about someof those immediate things that
stand out for you about Douglasson that day.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
You know what stands out to me in Douglass' speech as
part of my history ofcelebrating the 4th of July.
One of the ironic things hesays is that the 4th of July is
not the 4th of July.
Talking to the slave owners andother free folks white folks
specifically said the 4th ofJuly doesn't include me.
(05:23):
So, therefore, why are youasking me to celebrate something
that does not include me?
Here you are celebrating thefreedom from the tyranny of the
British, from England, but atthe same time, you're all slaves
and I'm a slave and I had to.
You know, what was reallyironic to me is that he had to
(05:43):
flee to keep his freedom to thevery place that we're
celebrating separating from.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
That's a big piece of information that people don't
know about Douglass.
By the way, the British boughthis freedom Right.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
They gave him the ability to learn how to read and
write and speak, and if youlistened to his speech, you
understand that it's got this.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
British flavor.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, it's British flavor and tone and you know
people would see it here today.
They would say, where are youfrom?
I know you're not from aroundhere, you know, are you a United
States citizen?
Are you a British citizen?
Because you know they wouldhave that accent.
So the challenge in all of thisand his speech and things like
(06:30):
that's been a tension for me andfor other folks as
African-Americans for a longtime is that here we are
celebrating the 4th of Julysince 1870.
Are you listening to me?
1870.
And we really just got where wecan have some sense of
celebration.
In the 1960s in the UnitedStates of America we could
(06:54):
celebrate the fact that therehad to be a forced legislation
of the United States of Americathat's been celebrating their
freedom from British since 1870.
America that's been celebratingtheir freedom from British
since 1870.
But in the 1964-65 civil rightsthere had to be forced
legislation in a sense for us toeven have the right to vote,
the right to look like we'recitizens, to act like we're
(07:16):
citizens, and only then it was aprecondition on how we could
celebrate preconditions on.
It was a precondition on how wecould celebrate preconditions
on.
So when I read his speech andthen I think about Juneteenth.
You know we talked aboutJuneteenth, sure, in the last
episode, right, and so you knowI was talking about that.
Juneteenth ought to be aprelude to July 4th, absolutely
(07:37):
so.
When I hear Douglas say what hesays about what does the 4th of
July mean to?
At that time we were Negroes.
We're African-Americans.
Today, we made some progress.
Thank you for that, you canadmit it.
So I'm thinking when I listento Frederick Douglass, I'm
listening to an eloquent,articulate young man.
(08:00):
What?
27 years old.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
At the time when he shared thatmessage in 52, he was actually
a 34, but still a very young man.
What 27 years old?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
At the time when he shared thatmessage in 52, he was actually
a 34, but still a very young man.
Very young man, but anyway.
But here's a man that was howdo I put this His ancestor and
his fellow citizens, as itrelates to slavery and things,
was being beat and tormented ifthey were caught trying to read
or write or articulatethemselves, and so the irony of
(08:29):
him being invited to speak onthe 4th of July was like really,
is that injury, uh, insult toinjury, right, a kind of thing,
and he refuses to speak on the4th?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
of July.
Right doesn't speak on the 4thof July, but Right doesn't speak
on the 4th of July, but insteadon July the 5th.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
July, the 5th because he said it would be well.
He didn't say it like this, butmy point being that for him to
make this speech on the 4th ofJuly would have been
hypocritical.
He could make it on July the5th, because it was not the
celebration of the UnitedStates' freedom.
So he says you know I freedom.
So he says you know, I don'twant to do it on the fourth
because there's still people inthis country Insular got free
(09:08):
Right, particularly my kinsmenRight Right.
He himself was only affordedthis because the British had
freed him, not because theUnited States had freed him.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, back up a little bit.
So in 1818, frederick Douglassis born, and he is born into
slavery, absolutely 1818.
And he remains a slave all theway through 1838.
Not because he's freed, butbecause at age 20, he escapes
(09:38):
from slavery dressed as a sailor, and so, somehow, being dressed
as a sailor, escapes slavery,ends up in new york city, where
he's there for a time and thenjoins a uh, abolition,
abolitionist movement.
And then, once he joins theabolitionist movement,
eventually he writes his ownbiography, uh, the narrative of
(09:59):
frederick douglas, which gainedso much popularity that the
danger of him being returnedback to slavery increases.
And so, just a few years later,he has to flee the country.
And where he goes to like yousaid, nettie, the irony of it
all goes to Britain, and therehe finds refuge.
Tell me, god doesn't have asense of humor, man.
(10:21):
So he finds refuge in Britain,and then he remains.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Hold on, think about that, what you just said.
They invite him to speak on the4th of July, where they're
celebrating freedom from theBritish.
Here he is in Britain andgetting the same emancipation
that supposedly the 4th of Julyrepresent for the United States,
for the people.
You can't make this stuff up.
(10:47):
It's like okay, here I am withthe British, and the American
folks are celebrating the factthat they've won their freedom
from the British, and here theBritish is giving me sanctity
and safety and freedom that Ican't enjoy in this new America.
They're celebrating Get awayfrom you guys.
You guys are giving me whatthey fought so hard for,
(11:08):
absolutely, and instead of themexercising that for all the
citizens, black or white orHispanic or whatever the case
might be, they've enslaved theminority or the African-American
folks.
And here I am fleeing for mylife in Britain, the very place
I can't.
I just that just blows my mind.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, you and you just only scratched the surface,
and that is they.
They, the British, as youmentioned earlier buy his
freedom back, which is why he'sable to return to America.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Right.
That's the only reason he'sable to return back to America,
because they buy it.
And still, when he gets back toAmerica, even though they
bought his freedom back, that hehas freedom now out of the free
prison, he's not enslavedanymore quote, unquote but he
still is treated as though he isenslaved or treated less than
the first class citizenship thatafforded him by being brought
out of slavery.
He doesn't get that.
(12:06):
And then he's invited,ironically, to speak on the 4th
of July.
Douglass makes his speech.
He says okay, y'all hadopportunity.
My word's not here, but inessence he said y'all had
opportunity to do what theBritain did for me with my
(12:29):
linkage.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, so he's here 1852, just 13 years before the,
or actually June, 13 yearsbefore Juneteenth, actually only
11 years before theEmancipation Proclamation in 63.
But in 52, he's making thisspeech ironically right after
(12:53):
the Declaration of Independenceis read.
So that's the backdrop.
There's this ceremony wherewe're celebrating the
Declaration of Independence.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
You know two things.
Again, I think this is aninsult to injury.
They're going to read theDeclaration of Independence and
then look at him and say it'sall you Doug.
And Doug is like what is this?
You're going to read a documentthat gives you freedom and then
(13:26):
you're going to invite me tofollow that when I don't have
the freedom that you have.
He says in the.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
In the speech Frederick Douglass makes, that
draws that line of distinction.
Eddie, he says why am I calledupon to speak here today?
What have I or those Irepresent to do with your
national independence?
Are the great principles ofpolitical freedom and of natural
justice embodied in thatDeclaration of Independence
extended to us, and am Itherefore called upon to bring
our humble offering to thenational altar and to confess
(14:03):
the benefits of expressed devoutgratitude for the blessings
resulting from your independenceto us?
And so, just out of the gate,douglas makes the point of
asking why does the 4th of Julymean anything for the African
(14:25):
slave, the black slave,african-american?
Why would it mean anything inthis moment, given the
conditions that we are facedwith?
Why would it mean anything forthem?
And then he says this just afew moments later.
He says such is not the case,meaning that, no, I'm not free
(14:48):
and those that I represent arenot free.
He says I say it with a sadsense of disparity between us.
I am not included within thepale of glorious anniversary.
Your high independence onlyreveals the immeasurable
distance between us.
The blessings in which you thisday rejoice are not enjoyed in
common the rich inheritance ofjustice and liberty and
(15:11):
prosperity and independencequeefed by your fathers is
shared by you, not by me.
The sunlight that brought lightand healing to you has brought
stripes and death to me.
This 4th of July is yours, notmine.
You may rejoice, but I mustmourn.
And to drag a man in fettersinto the grand illuminated
(15:33):
temple of liberty and call uponhim to join you in joyous
anthems were inhuman mockery andsacrilegious irony.
Do you mean citizens to mock meby asking me to speak today?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
End quote by asking me to speak today, end quote.
In other words, he's saying theultimate insult, the audacity
of this, because you know, hewas speaking to the white
audience, not to theAfrican-American audience, and I
think it was a group of bothAfrican-Americans and white that
invited him to come speak.
(16:09):
Abolitionist movement, rightand so.
But even at the same time, theabolitionist white folks in the
room was advocating for freedomand whatever else.
He's kind of giving them a parttoo.
Yeah, he poking at them too.
If you really appreciated theposition that you put me in, or
(16:30):
understanding my plight of howI'm seeing, maybe you shouldn't
have read that thing just beforeI got here.
You shouldn't have read theDeclaration of Independence and
talk about all the freedom andrights to happiness and all of
these great things which I donot have access to.
(16:51):
But she invited me to comespeak.
Okay, let me just let you haveit then, right?
So if you're going to put me inthis position, I cannot resist
the urge to let you know what Ireally think.
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:05):
But go ahead, doug, tell him what you think and he
did, he did, he did, and part ofthe mastery of his speech that
day was to help those that werein the audience be forced to
look at the plight of anotherRight.
So we're not going to justsimply celebrate without looking
(17:27):
at the horrors and the plightof another.
Looking at the horrors and theplight of another, and this
speech is going to force you toreckon not just with your own
freedom, but with also thebondage in which others are
experiencing while you celebrateyour freedom from bondage.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, you know what he's saying.
It's great in one sense that wecelebrate Absolutely we
celebrate, he said.
That's a great thing but at thesame time, have some sense as
wisdom and some concern and carefor those that don't have this
freedom.
Maybe you might not want to goon a plantation and say to the
(18:24):
folks let's celebrate the 4th ofJuly.
You might want to go on aplantation and say to them I'm
going to do everything I can toget you in a position that you
can enjoy, and I think that'sthe reason we're talking about
it today.
What can we do to help everycitizen enjoy the benefits of a
Fourth of July?
(18:44):
Since we've been enslavedbefore doing it after 1776,
since we've been enslaved beforedoing it after 1776, we really
don't have the insight, theunderstanding, the expressions
of, even internally, to have ajoy in our hearts of celebration
(19:05):
when we don't benefit from thatwhich we are celebrating.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
That goes back to the conversation we had a few weeks
ago about freedom, the story offreedom being on a continuum.
It's absolute.
It was a journey, and so whenwe think about the 4th of July,
we should think about it as partof the journey.
We shouldn't think about it asthe end, because, as you
mentioned, 1776, thatDeclaration of Independence was
(19:32):
signed, but there's a whole 87years before that other document
was signed, the EmancipationProclamation, and another two
years, two and a half, before13th Amendment is ratified, and
then all the other things thatcome after that right.
And so the Declaration ofIndependence of 1776 and the
(19:56):
document that signifies ourcelebration of the July, of
Fourth of July, was only onedocument in a long journey
towards freedom for all people,and Douglass' is highlighting
that in the clearest of terms.
You know, when I read Douglass'speech, I think about what we've
(20:17):
been talking about a lot thisyear this call by God for us to
love our neighbor as ourselves,and I think you and I had this
conversation earlier One of themost difficult tasks and
assignments that God has givenus is to love our neighbor as
ourselves, because we have tosee our neighbor with the same
(20:37):
value and worth that we see us,and Douglas is kind of bringing
that to bear on this audience.
In this speech, you guys arecelebrating your freedom, and
rightly so.
Freedom is a good thing for you, but to love your neighbor as
(20:58):
yourself.
In fact, douglass spends a lotof time talking about the
talking about the spiritualhypocrisy, not just a political
hypocrisy, you know, in thecountry, continental hypocrisy,
but he spends a lot of timetalking about the religious
hypocrisy in this speech as well.
In this speech as well, becausehe's saying you're missing the
opportunity to see the African,african-american slave in the
(21:18):
image of God and as your brother, a person that is that you're
supposed to love like you loveyou.
And if you love them like youlove you, then, as you celebrate
this independence, you shouldnot be content with seeing them
in chains, but you should becelebrating this independence
while fighting relentlessly fortheir independence.
(21:41):
And so even today, nettie, youknow, just, you know, fast
forwarding, fast forwarding into21st century, fast forwarding
into 21st century, lovingneighbor, seeing ourselves in
the neighbors around us, isstill one of the most difficult
tasks and assignments that Godhas given us.
(22:05):
To enjoy our freedoms, to enjoyall sorts of things while
having basically a cognitivedissonance and as it relates to
what everybody else around us isexperiencing whether it be
(22:26):
poverty, whether it be lack offreedom, whether it be hardships
, suffering it can be easy tooeasy at times for us to not love
our neighbor well, in thatsense where we enjoy and we
celebrate all these things thatare happening for us, while
being completely dismissive ofthe plight of our brothers and
sisters around us.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
In our study of the book of the cast.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Isabel Wilkerson's cast.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Right.
What she described is not herbook.
She described what realitytalks about as to her relation
to the caste system and in thatshe describes how slaves are
being beaten andlife-threatening to their way of
being if they don't act like acertain way or do things a
certain way.
(23:11):
Or do things a certain way haveto act happy, yeah, act happy,
be thankful that the fact thatyou were a slave.
Grateful, yeah, you ought to begrateful and wow that's.
And if you don't, we beat youuntil you do or kill you.
And when I think about all ofthis stuff surrounding freedom
(23:34):
and how that should work out.
God, you said, gave us anassignment to love our neighbors
as ourselves.
What God's word articulates forme?
This isn't something from God,but what it articulates for me
when the love of God in youcauses you to think and act like
(23:55):
God, this would not be an issue.
So, loving your neighbor asyourself, or Jesus says in John
13, 34 and 35, that love oneanother as I have loved you.
In other words, we ought to beexpressing the love and
(24:15):
compassion and all the grace andmercy that God has extended to
me.
I ought to be celebrating thefact that I can extend that to
you which raises neighbor loveto a whole nother level.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
This is one thing to see.
It's one thing for me to seeNettie as I see me.
It's a whole nother thing forme to see Nettie as God sees me
Sees, nettie, and you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
And so Jesus says they will recognize your
Christianity, your discipleshipof me or in me.
They are recognized that byyour love for one another.
So one of the deep, penetratingdiscipleship characteristic of
(24:58):
a follower of Christ is that youlove those who love you but,
more important, you got to lovethose who hate you, love those
that despise you, that do evil.
Pray for those.
You got to do all these thingsto be recognized as that.
And so Doug's point in all ofthis, and our point in having
this discussion, is that we aremissing the mark as Christians
(25:21):
in a big way, as it relates tocelebrating, on the one hand,
the freedom and enjoyment andthe benefits of one class of
folks or one society of folkssimply because of the color of
your skin, and watching in thatcelebration how other people
don't have that benefit becauseof the laws or the policies or
(25:43):
these United States of America,how we have man.
That's to me it's like youalready enjoy and celebrate the
freedom you have for me, evenallowing you to do what you do,
whatever status or place in lifeyou are.
You ought to be excited tocelebrate that, because I can
(26:04):
make it worse, and you ought tobe thanking me that I haven't
made it worse this discussionabout Juneteenth, the discussion
about the 4th of July.
Listening to the speech byDouglas, it moves me to work
even harder.
It moves me to celebrate evenharder.
It moves me to see everybody'slife and a lot of people are
(26:26):
celebrating the 4th of July,actually doing it with sincerity
, holding us apart, anticipating, expecting and thinking that
everybody, including me, you andeverybody else, regardless of
your ancestry or your history,and all of this, that everybody
has a privilege now of beingfree, and so forth.
But that simply is not the case.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Still a journey, right's still a journey.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Right, it's still a journey, and you know hopefully
this podcast would help somefolks rethink, research and
revise or renew their vision andtheir celebration of Juneteenth
and July 4th in a way that itbecomes an American history
(27:11):
celebration of freedom foreveryone, and that is one is.
You know, until everybody'sfree, nobody's free, and so
maybe this discussion that we'rehaving will call some folks out
there to rethink all of thisstuff and look at it from a
perspective that we're all onehere in America, especially when
it comes to the church and howthe church contributing to the
(27:32):
plight that Douglas talked aboutand when you said it was done
1852.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, 1852.
Yeah, you know, Douglas doesn'tleave us without hope.
There's a passage here thatthat really kind of highlights
the fact that Douglas is notleaving us without hope.
There's a passage here thatreally kind of highlights the
fact that Douglas is not leavingus without hope.
Towards the end, he says inconclusion.
In fact, in conclusion, allowme to say, notwithstanding the
dark picture I have this daypresented of the state of the
(28:01):
nation, I do not despair of thiscountry.
There are forces in operationwhich must inevitably work the
downfall of slavery.
The arm of the Lord is notshortened and the doom of
slavery is certain.
I therefore leave off where Ibegan, with hope Absolute, While
(28:25):
drawing encouragement from theDeclaration of Independence, the
great principles it containsand the genius of American
institutions.
My spirit is also cheered by theobvious tendencies of the age.
Nations do not now stand in thesame relation to each other
that they did ages ago.
No nation can now shut itselfup from the surrounding world
(28:47):
and trout round in the samerelation to each other that they
did ages ago.
No nation can now shut itselfup from the surrounding world
and trout round in the same oldpath of his fathers without
interference.
The time was when such could bedone.
Long-established customs ofhurtful character could formally
fence themselves in and dotheir evil work with social
impunity.
Knowledge was then confided andenjoyed by a privileged few,
(29:09):
and the multitude walked on inmental darkness.
But a change has now come overthe affairs of mankind.
Walled cities and empires havebecome unfashionable.
The arm of commerce has borneaway the gates of the strong
city.
Intelligence is penetrating thedarkest corners of the globe.
It makes its pathway over andunder the sea as well as on the
(29:33):
earth.
Wind, steam and lightning areits chartered agents.
Oceans no longer divide butlink nations together.
From Boston to London is now aholiday excursion.
Space is comparativelyannihilated.
And so Douglas had this hopethat as the nations were growing
(29:58):
more advanced and people weregetting closer and sentiments
and thoughts were changing, thateven slavery too would meet its
end.
And, as we know, just 15 yearslater for Douglass we saw that
(30:25):
in.
We saw that that initial stepto the end of Independence in
his closing as a document whereits highest ideas are worth
protecting and seeing that allget a chance to reap the fruit.
That douglas highlights thatbecause it's a beautiful
document.
1776 is a beautiful document andthe celebration is a beautiful
(30:51):
celebration as long as we, whenwe celebrate, understand that we
are, that we have always beenoperating on a continuum and on
a journey towards freedom, andso 1776 wasn't the end of that
journey.
In fact, in many ways it wasjust the beginning.
It was just the beginning.
(31:11):
It was just the beginning, andso learning how to celebrate
these holidays with that kind ofunderstanding and that kind of
soberness or sobriety, rather, Ithink, is important as we think
about celebrating theseholidays, I think is important
as we think about celebratingthese holidays.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Absolutely, Brian.
I think Douglas said it bestwhen he said, even though I
painted a picture of how thedistinct difference between my
freedom and celebration and yourfreedom and celebration I'm
still on the journey towardsfreedom and I have hope that one
day I'll be there, similar toKing's speech.
So you know, and so as we joinit today, you know, at least
(31:53):
Juneteenth now is a holiday.
So we're on that continuum, asyou say, on this journey towards
freedom, and the founders of1776, when they did the
independence, declamation ofindependence, that they were
looking at it from thatperspective, that we're getting
(32:13):
there and we're on a journey andwe have the freedom that we
have today.
Not like ideally, like I don'tthink there is such thing in an
ideal sense but I'm challengedfrom the perspective of being a
Christian.
I'm challenging the Christiansfrom the perspective of
understanding Jesus's commandsand assignment to us that we
love one another as he has lovedus.
(32:34):
And you're right, Love yourneighbor as yourself is an
assignment from God and weshould be carrying that
assignment out with greatcelebrative opportunity because
we have received it.
We ought to be celebrating thefact that we have received it,
but also sharing in thatcelebration when making sure
others receive it as well, andthat we love one another as he
commanded us to love, and takethis assignment as loving your
(32:56):
neighbor seriously enough thatwe do that in a way that
highlights the reconciliation wehave in Christ.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Amen, amen.
When you think about Juneteenth, when you think about the 4th
of July, be reminded that thiscelebration of freedom is also a
call, amen.
It's a call to pursue thecommon flourishing and the good
and the peace and joy of notjust yourself and your home, and
(33:24):
even your neighborhood, yourown country, but to pursue it
wherever it may not exist and touse whatever time, talent and
treasure that the Lord is givingyou to participate in that call
.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
One final thing is that Douglass himself, as he
wrote this, alluded to the factthat I can celebrate, in a sense
, because we're moving toward acontinuum of freedom, but at the
same time, I have the freedom,and an example of the freedom
that I have is the fact that youwould invite me to come to
speak Absolutely On the 4th ofJuly.
And as today and as a Christian, we have reasons to celebrate
(34:01):
on the 4th of July.
Just understand that all thethings that surround the 4th of
July and how things havehappened is sometimes that's
where the tension follows.
And I'm saying celebrate thefact that we have the privilege
of the opportunity now maybe notthen, but now be celebrated as
free citizens, and that we havea charge and a ministry to go
(34:24):
forward and help others do thesame.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Amen.
Thank you, guys, so much againfor joining us on this episode.
Feel free to subscribe to ourpodcast.
Go to any podcast app.
Search for Living Reconciled.
You'll find us.
Subscribe but also, like ourepisodes, share our episodes
with friends, family, churchmembers, others who you believe
are passionate about the work ofreconciliation.
We would love and very muchappreciate if you would do that
(34:49):
for us.
It's been a great episode.
This is Brian Crawford with mygood friend Nettie Winters
signing off saying God bless,god bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
(35:10):
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
Thank you.
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