August 20, 2024 • 58 mins
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What happens when a shy pastor's kid overcomes his reluctance and becomes a significant change agent within the local church church? Tune in to this compelling episode of Living Reconciled as we welcome Pastor Brian Ivey, recently retired from Highland Baptist Church in Vicksburg, Mississippi. Pastor Ivey reveals his inspiring journey of personal faith, navigating the complexities of a pastoral career, and his pivotal role in reconciliation efforts. We also delve into the complex journey of racial reconciliation, as Pastor Ivey recounts his experiences from high school racial tensions to integrating the first African-American family into Highland Baptist Church. Through personal anecdotes and reflections, he highlights the importance of building genuine relationships and fostering unity within the church. The conversation underscores the ongoing need for intentionality, endurance, and empathy in creating a more unified community. Join us as we reflect on the progress made and the work that still lies ahead.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Joining us on episode 57 ofLiving Reconciled.
I'm your host, brian Crawford,and I am with good friends today
(00:35):
.
One such good friend is myco-host, nettie Winters.
Sir, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Man, I am blessed beyond measure, I'm excited and
I'm really excited about ourguest today.
Man, I got all my jabs you knowlined up and I'm really going
to enjoy this.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Absolutely, I'm sure you will.
I'm sure you will.
Before we introduce our guest,I do want to give a quick
shout-out and thanks to oursponsors, folks like Nissan, st
Dominic's Hospital, atmos Energy, regis Foundation, brown
Missionary Baptist Church,christian Life Church, ms Doris
Powell, mr Robert Ward, ms AnnWinters.
Thank you so much foreverything that you do for
Living Reconciled in MissionMississippi.
(01:14):
It's because of what you dothat we're able to do what we do
, and we would love, if you havea desire, to invest in the work
of reconciliation.
We would love your support.
Please go out tomissionmississippiorg, click on
the donate button at the top ofthe page and you too can support
the work of reconciliation andsupport great activities like
(01:34):
this podcast.
This podcast today is with avery good friend, and I don't
say that lightly.
He's a dear friend to bothNettie and myself Pastor Brian
Ivey.
And Pastor Brian Ivey recentlyretired from Highland Baptist
Church in Vicksburg, mississippi, where he served a long and
(01:55):
faithful tenure, and we willhave him chat a little bit with
you about that.
But Pastor Brian Ivey is now aresident of Gluckstadt,
mississippi, with his beautifulbride.
Pastor Ivey, how are you doing,sir.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I'm doing great Brian .
It's good to see both you andNettie today.
Man, glad to be with y'all.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So, Pastor, tell us a little bit about your family,
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself, how you came to faith
in Christ and also how you endedup at Highland Baptist Church.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Okay, sure.
Well, I'm married to my wifeCarla, and we've been married.
This August It'll be 43 yearsand we have two grown sons.
Joseph lives here in theMadison area close to us, and my
son Dan, and he has a family aswell.
So all together we have sixgrandkids.
(02:48):
And I came to know the Lord in aChristian home.
My parents were Christians andactually my dad was a pastor for
a long time, and so I knewabout Christ from the very
earliest memories I have.
But I think my parents weresaved when I was about three, so
(03:09):
I don't remember anything aboutlife, you know, before three.
So basically brought up in thechurch and most of those years
as a pastor's kid.
But when I was 12, I made mydecision.
I knew I needed Jesus as mySavior several years before that
(03:30):
, but I was always a shy personand just had trouble making a
public profession of faith.
But when I was 12, I reallygave my life to the Lord and
surrendered to Him, and then hebegan to lead me and guide me
and I was just a churchgoer.
You know the rest of my growingup years, but when I was a
(03:51):
senior in high school I began tosense God calling me into the
ministry.
It was the last thing I wantedGod to do to me.
You know, because I grew up,you know on the inside of
looking at that kind of life and, uh right, no, a lot of
frustration, a lot of difficulty.
And and on the inside of apastor's home, you know, with
(04:13):
watching what your father has todeal with, you know with people
in churches and moving around alot, and you know so, uh, but
anyway I, I finally.
It took me three years, butwhen I was a sophomore in
college, I surrendered to theministry and said, yes, lord,
I'll do it.
I said I can't do it because Idon't know why you would pick
(04:34):
somebody who's shy and doesn'tlike to speak in front of people
.
And I was terrified.
I really was, but I knew that'sthe only thing God wanted for
my life and I just realized Ineed to give my life to him and
let him work through me the besthe wanted to.
You know, and it's been areally wonderful journey ever
(04:57):
since that moment.
My first church was in 1979, andthen Highland was my fourth
church and so I moved there fromHattiesburg.
I pastored at First BaptistGlendale in Hattiesburg and so
when I came to Highland, I endedup being the pastor at 37 years
(05:17):
of age and stayed till I wasalmost 67.
So 30 years past, years past,actually 29 but if I'd have
stayed till my birthday, uh,this august and, you know, next
month, it would have been 30years.
But uh, so it was.
Uh, it was a, it was a greatministry, it was a great, great
(05:37):
time, uh, and it was there thatI really, you know, got involved
with, uh, racial reconciliationon a much larger scale than I
had at any other church.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
What changed from the time that you started or what
most changed to you in pastoralministry from the time that you
started to the time that youretired?
What were some of the biggestchanges and shifts in leading a
church?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
In that process did you overcome your.
What did you say?
You was terrorized.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Yeah, I don't know that I overcome it.
I'm still not comfortable.
You know, nettie's probablybeen after me for three or four
years to appear on camera and beinterviewed or radioed or
something, and it's not my thing.
And it's not my thing now, butbecause I just always I'm more
of a, by the way.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
what did Brian offer you to get you all here?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Well, he told me you would take me on a nice
restaurant.
You'd take me to the nicestrestaurant around the Jackson
area and buy me the mostexpensive meal on the menu.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
He told me he would be glad to do that.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
He'd take me up on that any day.
Well, I know he's a man of hisword too, because it's public
now.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I'll even let you come with me, brian Ivey, okay.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's, yeah, he, I really.
You know people find this hardto believe because, especially
when I've told the story inchurch.
But in high school I would takezeros when it was time to do
oral book reports.
You know it was popular in myday.
You know you read a book andyou stand up in front of the
(07:29):
class and tell about it.
I would take a zero every time,which meant my grade point
average in high school was not.
It did not reflect how smart Ireally am.
You know, wow, wow, but I justcouldn't do it.
I wouldn't do it.
And because you know, taking azero each semester of English,
you know doesn't do good foryour overall grade.
(07:49):
You know it does, it does.
You know God just gave me thestrength to be able to overcome
that.
I'm still uncomfortable with it.
I still get nervous, you know,speaking in a crowd, but I think
for me it was kind of likePaul's thorn in the flesh.
It was just like a reminder.
(08:10):
God said this will let you knowyou need me.
You can't do this without me.
This is not you.
You don't want to do it, butI'm going to show you I can do
it through you.
And so he has and he's blessed,you know, to give me a
wonderful 45 years of pastoralministry, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Speaking of that 45, what you know, jump back, if we
could real quick, because Iwould love to get your insight
and your feedback.
Through those 45 years, wherehave you seen the biggest shifts
and biggest change in the worldof pastoral ministry?
Biggest shifts and biggestchange in the world of pastoral
ministry?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I think, the biggest change for me.
Of course, there's been a lotof technology changes, a lot of,
you know.
I never thought when I startedpreaching that I'd ever have to
worry about how to do aPowerPoint presentation or
prepare for a podcast or do livestreaming, you know, or any you
know.
So all of that, of course, hasbeen a learning stage, you know,
or any you know.
So all of that, of course, hasbeen a learning stage.
(09:08):
You know, all along the way,but probably for the first
number of years I was in thepastorate, very little changed,
you know, because most everybodyhad the same expectation of a
pastor, and I guess what changedmore than anything was my
desire to learn how to lead achurch, to be relevant and to
(09:29):
grow and reach people.
And unfortunately, a lot ofthat involved not being the
pastor that most churches expect, which is more of a chaplain
hey, visit us when we're sick,do our funerals when we die,
marry our kids when they, youknow, get old.
And, in addition to all that,let's grow the church and reach
(09:53):
a lot of people, you know.
And so trying to fight thatbattle of how to transition
myself from being what everybodyneeded me to be to being a more
of a change agent to see whatwhat in the church needs to
change.
Not that everything needed tochange, but we had so many
(10:13):
traditions.
You know that, especially inBaptist life, you could go to
another church and you know it'dbe most everybody had the same
tradition.
You know they do the Lord'ssupper once a month.
You know, second second, mosteverybody had the same tradition
.
You know they do the Lord'sSupper once a month.
You know, second Sunday of themonth of the quarter.
You know there were a lot ofthose things that were similar
(10:34):
and most of the people were thesame and most of the problems I
encountered were the same.
They just had different names.
You know, and you always hadyour problem people, your needy
people, the ones, as they say,the squeaky wheel gets the most
grease.
You know that would 10, 10% ofthe people would want to occupy
90% of your time and your energy, you know, and uh, so those
(10:57):
were some of the struggles, butI really uh, you say those
struggles remain the samethroughout.
Yeah, right, yeah from beginningto end.
Yeah, exactly, but I think thechange in how you build bridges
to people changed Used to.
For years we had weeklyvisitation nights.
(11:19):
We'd get a group of people govisit on Monday night or Tuesday
night, knock on doors, try toshare their fate, you know, and
increasingly that got harder todo for a couple of reasons.
First of all, culture.
You know the Olympics is comingup and I'll never forget
knocking on somebody's door inthe 1990s on a Monday night and
(11:44):
they screamed from the back ofthe house in the TV room and
said go away, we're watching theOlympics.
And so I had hollered.
They said who is it?
I said I'm Pastor Brian Ivey,holla Baptist Church.
Well, go away, we're watchingthe Olympics.
And so a lot of people you knowdidn't want.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That's an excellent invitation.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, right, well, go away that's so that people
began to not want people tovisit, you know, church, you
know, and, and the time, andeven our own people who became
so centered on many other thingsin the community activities
(12:30):
with kids, all the involvementwith the recreation activities
and you got families, you know,increasingly devoting more of
their time at the ballpark thanto the work of the Lord and the
church.
And that's probably the hardestthing I've found, you know, is
(12:50):
trying to figure out what do wedo with that.
You know, what do you do withthat?
Everybody wants a growingchildren's ministry, but it
takes a lot of people to makethat happen.
Everybody wants a dynamic,growing youth group, but it
takes a lot of support beyondthe staff, you know, to make
that happen.
Everybody wants a dynamic,growing youth group, but it
takes a lot of support beyondthe staff, you know, to make
that happen.
And it got to where a lot ofpeople I'd love to do that, I
(13:13):
just don't have time.
I got this to do and that to doand you know you got work.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I want to interrupt you just for a moment.
You talked about knocking ondoors, yes, and how they change
because of the culture and, youknow, technology and so forth.
What do you believe?
You know, I remember when wewent.
I just can't think about thehours and money and labor and
time we spent with.
What was that?
(13:41):
Evangelism explosion, yeahright, and the dead hat when we
stopped knocking on doors anddoing those kinds of things.
And and now it's facebook's andyou know, tweet and twits and
all of those things.
How did that affect people?
You know they're falling off of, uh, you know, some of the
(14:02):
mainline churches anddenominations they had.
It's falling off.
You think that had something todo with it?
You wouldn't stop doing a lotof things in person.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Uh, in terms of that, that I'm not sure it had much
effect on the end result.
Uh, because I I think we did alot of that out of expectations
we had of ourselves.
This will make us look likegood christians if we go to
visitation night or we go, we'rea part of evangelism explosion,
(14:30):
you know, because we I triedall of those programs as a
pastor and and they we didn'thave significant numbers of
people coming to Christ, youknow.
So when we began to transition,that was part of my my dilemma
was to figure out or to want todo something that was fruitful,
(14:51):
not just because we've alwaysdone it, and so we went more
toward outreach events and triedto teach our people.
Let's build connections.
We're going to have a fish fry.
You invite your friends who youwork with that.
Don't go to church, tell themto come.
Or we're going to have a fallfestival.
Or you know, on Halloween night, hey, you get this.
(15:11):
Tell the community, all yourneighbors come to the.
We're having a fun night forkids, you know.
And then you know, try to trainour people.
You build connections withpeople who come through, you
know, get to befriend them.
You know, and show someinterest.
And actually we would have whenwe started doing that and we
had a few diehard visiting.
(15:31):
People said you've killedoutreach in our church.
You're not having Monday nightvisitation anymore.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
You just took it out and shot it.
Man, You're killing it.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Right, I said.
But look, I said we're havingmore visitors now that we're not
knocking on doors, you knowthan we've ever had, because
we're really trying to get toknow them where they are, you
know right, and to go to themand force them.
Hey, sit and talk with me 30minutes.
Let me tell you why you shouldcome to our church.
And uh, so it, that was, uh,that was a hard sale, because
(16:04):
you had, you had the culturechanging around me.
You know that, like we got todo different to reach the people
.
Now, you know, but then you hadto battle the church folks who
were still steeped in tradition,like, well, we've always done
this and you're doing away withsome good things we've done.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
You know, brian.
I just want to interrupt thereand say you know, it's always
interesting to me, those diehardfolks that says what you're
doing.
You know.
I said to them you know, thisis not going to prevent you to
continue to do that which youthink works.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Go right in and continue to knock on the door,
man but they did Right, that'sright, yeah, and you know things
like.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
You know.
When I decided in the year 2000, it was time we could spend our
time better on Sunday eveningsthan just having another worship
service, you know.
So we quit having Sunday nightchurch Now I'm not knocking
anybody who still does that,there are settings, that that's
still a good thing, you know.
But for us I was preaching tothe same people who had been
(17:12):
Christians for 40 years andnobody was going to come to know
Christ because we had Sundaynight worship, you know.
And so we went more to groupsand try to involve young
families and provide activitiesfor their kids, so the parents,
you know, could be in a smallgroup, you know.
And so that was a, you know,that was a change I never, I
(17:35):
just expected, you know, when Iwas in seminary, one of my
seminary professors said youknow, guys, you want to know how
to be a great pastor, you justlove the people, you love your
people and God will bless yourchurch.
Well, and I admired thatseminary professor and I think
there was a time he was comingfrom.
That was true, Right, right,but it didn't work for me.
(17:58):
I loved them all, but theydidn't think I did because I
didn't visit them.
You know, you've been a pastorthree years and you haven't been
in my home yet.
And I used to joke because mywife's grandmother, she used to
make fun of her church members.
She was a church planter beforeit was even a term in Panama
(18:19):
City, florida and she was alwayspushing her church.
We need to start a church overhere, we need to start a mission
church over here in this partof the county, and she went out
several times and became achurch planning team even before
home.
You know that was.
That was before the wholemission board even knew that
term, you know, let alone NorthAmerican Mission Board.
(18:39):
But but she said she said thesepeople that say the pastor
won't come tell will come visitme.
She said I just tell him, honey,I invite him over for lunch and
he always comes, you know.
So she said invite him.
But you know she said when Iwant to talk to him, I invite
(19:04):
him over for lunch and he alwayscomes.
You know which is.
But people, you know, wantedyou to.
But that's what that seminaryprofessor was saying how you
take because he actually gotspecific, get your membership
role, go visit in every home.
The first year you're at thatchurch and man, they'll love you
and follow you anywhere but andI think in the day that's
(19:29):
probably true you know but butthey, they wouldn't yell for you
to go away, yeah.
No, they had different year,different eras, different times.
Yeah, those were.
It was more respect, you know,for church and pastors, you know
, in the community.
I mean that you know in thecommunity.
I mean that was in a day whenyou know a coach wouldn't dare
(19:50):
have a practice or a game on aweeknight or a sunday afternoon,
right, stuff like that.
So it was a different day.
So, just seeing the changes inculture, you ask, the biggest
change, you know, is seeing thechanges in culture, but also
seeing how hard it it was forChristian people to adapt to
(20:11):
those changes, to be relevantand fulfill our mission, because
the mission's been the same,you know, in commission, and so
that's the goal and trying toadapt to the changes both
outside the church and insidethe church.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
To see, you think we've made that transition?
Have we made a transition basedon how the culture has changed.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I think some churches have, but I think it's a very
small percentage of the churches.
I think, you know, used to,there was a statistic used to be
quoted and this was even in aslate as the late 80s and early
90s.
You know, used to, there was astatistic used to be quoted and
this was even in as late as thelate 80s and early 90s.
You know that 80% of ourSouthern Baptist churches which
is the only denomination I'm,you know, was really plugged
(21:01):
into with statistics and stuff.
80% were plateaued and dyingand only 20% were growing.
And then in just a few yearsbeyond that, then it was 85% are
plateaued or dying, only 15%,and the numbers kept going up.
But you did have a few brightspots along the way of churches
(21:27):
did some very different kinds ofthings not changing the mission
but adapting themselves to theculture, so the mission becomes
more fruitful, I think.
I think there are some churchesthat have gotten it right and I
hope the churches I pastoredwere a little better at it when
I left than when I, when I wentthere, you know.
(21:48):
But that was a hard learningcurve for me too.
Um, because I had, you know, Iwent to a lot of conferences and
leadership things to try tolearn, you know, what, what
people were doing that seemed towork.
You know a lot of, a lot of.
I did a lot of studying andreading books on how do you lead
(22:09):
change, how do you become achange agent without getting
fired, you know, and that kindof thing.
But so that was to me.
It was always a struggle to seehow can we be better at
reaching people for Christ.
You know, because there were noeasy answers to that.
It wasn't like.
(22:30):
I think for a long time time atSouthern Baptist we had this
formula and I got in on the endof the Sunday school craze.
You know, you grew through theSunday school.
You multiply and divide classesand you reach new people and
you know you could continue toenlarge your structure and you
keep your of prospects and youassign that to everybody in the
(22:51):
age groups.
You reach these they don't goto church anywhere.
You reach out to these theydon't go to church.
And that was a great model forthe time and I was a big
proponent of it.
I was a big Sunday schoolpastor.
Probably three of the churchesI pastored out of four.
We grew through the Sundayschool and adopting that model.
(23:14):
But then culture changed wherepeople wanted their classes to
be more support groups insteadof outreach groups.
And there's a place even insmall group ministries, you know
, to have support groups.
But you got to have some wayfor new people to be assimilated
(23:35):
and invited to come to some ofthose connection times and I
think even some of the smallgroup ministry.
We tried it, you know, atHighland.
You know it was like we startedoff pretty good but then after
a while the groups were contentwith who was in their group and
we forgot the people that wehave a reach or the people that
(23:58):
may visit on a Sunday, and ourfirst thought was not okay, how
can we connect them to one ofour groups?
I think the hardest struggle forme was keeping people focused.
Here's why we're here, we exist.
First time I heard this.
It's been quoted by manyleaders through the years.
(24:20):
The first time I heard it wasfrom Harry Pylan, who was the
director of what was then calledthe Sunday School Board in
Nashville.
He said that the main missionof our church is to exist for
people who are not yet a part ofit.
You know, that's why we're hereis for people who are not a
part of us yet.
(24:41):
Wow, you know, wow.
And so that always stuck in mymind.
But it was hard to watchculture change and then watch
people change within our church,and and the models we were
still trying to use were, wereineffective, but yet we didn't
want to change them.
(25:01):
And uh, it was.
Uh, you know, I didn't expectthat.
Uh, you know, I didn't expectthat.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And you didn't expect that and you throw, pastor, one
of the things as I think aboutchange and the conversation
we're having about changethrough the decades and shifts
through the decades.
But on a positive side, one ofthe things that I think we saw a
major shift through the decadesthat you were pretty
(25:29):
instrumental in, a reallyintegral part of, was the shift
racially in terms ofreconciliation, the emphasis on
racial healing.
Talk to us a little bit aboutyour time on the front end
versus your time on the back endof reconciliation work in the
(25:50):
deep south Mississippi.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Well, part of my first church was an Indian
church in South Alabama.
It was North Mobile County.
Actually, for years the HomeMission Board had appointed a
home missionary to work withwhat they called the Mowah
Indians.
Mowah meant Mobile County,washington County.
There was a segment of people.
(26:15):
They were called Cajuns in thelocal area but they were
actually Indians that had mixedin, some with white, some with
black, so there were someinterracial.
But that was my first church andthere were probably more darker
people in my congregation.
It was only 15 people when Iwent there but there were more
darker-skinned people thanlight-skinned people.
(26:36):
In that that was a greatexperience.
In many ways that was.
The greatest time of myministry was the six years I
spent there, because we grewfrom about 15 to about 60 in six
years, which percentage-wise,it looks good on paper but it's
still only 60.
(26:57):
But it was a good place for meto learn and so we actually
joined.
I led them to join the MobileBaptist Association and I had
some pastor friends of mine from.
This was a college pastorate,but I had some other friends you
(27:18):
know in the ministry said doyou know what you're doing?
You're going to lead thatchurch to join the association
and you know some of ourchurches may not like that, you
know, because there's somedarker skin people in that
community, you know, and thesewere kind of outplayed from
everybody else and I hadn't eventhought of that, I thought,
(27:38):
never even crossed my mind.
But I remember, and one of thedarkest skin guys, who was one
of my lay leaders, accompaniedme and a little old white haired
retired school teacher.
They were the two leaders of achurch.
They accompanied me to thatassociational meeting and all of
the uh messengers.
(27:58):
And these were back whenmessenger, when associational
meetings were a big deal, youknow and you would, and in the
mobile baptist association a lotof churches, you know too.
And when the recommendation wasmade after we'd gone through
the credentials committee anddid all the application process,
they overwhelmingly adopted usinto the association and I'll
(28:19):
never forget watching it.
The whole crowd stood up andgave that vote a standing
ovation and me standing therewith a little old white-skinned
lady with gray hair, never beenmarried, a schoolteacher but yet
had some Indian blood in herancestry, and then a really
(28:41):
dark-skinned guy who was arecipient of an in-black mixture
race.
So that was a good start.
You know that.
I mean I, I didn't have anyracial problems there and and
cause the community was kind ofisolated to itself.
So but they loved me andrespected me and man, I, I had,
(29:03):
I endured that.
So then I remember my nextchurch I pastored.
I got a call from a deacon onetime one day and he said hey,
pastor, brother, I need to askyou a question.
I said I need you to show me inthe Bible.
(29:23):
He had three teenage daughters.
He said I need you to help mefind in the Bible where it says
that my daughters don't need todate any black guys.
So I kind of went silent for aminute, you know, because I'd
never been asked that before,never expected to be asked that,
right, right, and I said I tookthe easy way out at first.
(29:48):
I said well, let me get back toyou on that.
Let me do a little studying,get my scriptures in mind, let
me get back to you.
So I called.
At that time the ChristianAction Commission director was
Paul Jones, in MississippiBaptist.
I said Dr Jones, I need somehelp, man.
(30:11):
I said y'all got any stuff onrace relations?
He said yeah, we do.
There's some pamphlets, there'ssome things.
You know, there's some things.
I said well, I got this deaconthat.
Well, we're in the Bible,there's not supposed to be
marriage between the races.
I said I know what the answeris, but I just need to know some
(30:31):
good ways to present it.
He said you're right, there'sno biblical admonition against
that.
You know.
So, anyway, we.
So in that church, you know, wedidn't have, we didn't have any
confrontations or issues withany families.
(30:52):
There was not any.
This was a rural church.
I don't think we even had manyAfrican-Americans living in our
community.
You know, we never had anythinggo on there.
You know, thing anything go onthere.
(31:14):
You know, and uh, but it was uh, but teaching, teaching him and
, of course, the rest of thechurch, that there is nothing in
the bible.
Here's what the bible says, youknow, and those scriptures that
were used years ago or were noteven talking about black white
issue, you know, Right, right,it was uh.
So anyway, we.
So that I started the educationlike teach, here's what the
(31:37):
Bible really says about race,everybody.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Okay, so did that?
I guess that encounter?
Yeah, it opened a door or anopportunity.
It sounds like for you toactually begin to teach Right.
Okay, right, opportunity.
It sounds like for you toactually begin the team Right.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Okay Right, oh yeah, go, continue.
Right, we got to call Paul Nealto print that brochure and
publish it about dismissing themyth about crossing races and
things that they hadmisinterpreted in the Old
Testament.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
That could have been.
I don't know, that may havealready been written, but you
know.
But yeah, he was very helpful,but that was the see I'd never.
Up until that time, I wouldnever have thought about, I
never thought about.
You know, let me do a, let medo a series about race, race
relationship, you know, you know, I think I just part of it was
(32:24):
how I grew up.
I grew up I really feel like Iwas taught, you know,
everybody's important and I hadblack friends in school.
Uh, grandma, even in the firstgrade.
You know, that was the early,uh, early sixties, 60, the, yeah
, probably 63, 64, 65.
(32:44):
And, uh, you know, but I neverthought, why is there only one
or two black kids in my class?
You know it just.
But I was friends with them andwe would do things together at
school and, uh, then in, uh,later grammar years, you know, I
was good friends.
I remember writing.
We went to a school fair and,uh, we had a couple of black
(33:06):
guys in our class in about thefifth grade and so we all rode
the Ferris wheel together.
I was in the middle and each ofthem were on the other side of
me, but I don't ever rememberour class having an issue with
that, but I never thought why isthere only two?
There's a lot more black peoplelive in this city.
(33:31):
But when I got to high school itwas a whole different thing.
I went to a large high school,harrison Central High School,
north of Gulfport, and we had alot of racial tension there.
There was a lot of fighting, alot of, and I was not used to
that.
I was not.
I had not ever been around that, wasn't really aware that it
(33:53):
was a problem.
You know, we just were taughtyou love everybody, you care
about everybody, and you know,and we played for kids, with
kids in the neighborhood.
We just lived in neighborhoodswhere there were no black kids
and didn't really think about itbeing.
It's not because we don't wantthem, it's just they're not here
.
You know we didn't really thinkabout it being it's not because
we don't want them, it's justthey're not here.
You know we didn't, we didn'tthink about that, you know.
(34:14):
But I was.
But I always, I always had.
I remember boo, boo and uh whenI was in junior high.
He was, he was one of my bestfriends and lonnie taylor was
his actual name, and uh but uh.
So we always had a greatrelationship one-on-one.
But when I started encounteringother people who were very, uh,
(34:37):
anti being friends with otherraces, that was uh, that was
difficult because got the peerpressure thing that he you know.
So when I came to highland, uh,it came to a head when we had
our first black family,african-american family, and I
(34:58):
would have said up until thatpoint, you know, our church
welcomes everybody and we did,we.
We welcomed them to visit, butwhen they joined it did
something to a handful of people.
I went through a lot ofstruggles with a few those one
did you sell to terry?
I tried, yeah but you know I, soI had to get my notes out from
(35:22):
the bible and race and that Idid all that.
You know we had to go through aWednesday night Bible study.
It got it and I'm very thankful.
It was a very small group ofpeople and we ended up losing
some people over there andactually we had some.
I asked to leave because ofthat and uh, but uh, but I was
(35:48):
really thankful it was verysmall number, but, but that,
that kind of opened my eyes.
We haven't done, I had not donemuch to prevent, to prevent that
before it came to a hit, youknow, and uh.
So then you know, as I began topreach more sermons on race and
(36:11):
you know when I would come tothe passages where you could
really jump off on racialreconciliation, you know, then I
made, I was more intentionaland about that time Nettie
Winters, uh, kept coming over toVicksburg wanting to meet with
pastors and bug the stew out ofus to start some kind of weekly
with pastors and bug the stewout of us to start some kind of
(36:34):
weekly.
So thank God for Nettie doingthat, cause that that's what
helped us, have the desire to.
Okay, we do need to work onthis.
We do need to meet together.
And and, uh, and those guys, uh, you know, uh, it's been a
number of years, you know, butthose are some of my best
friends.
They all, you know, came andyou were at the little going
(36:56):
away supper we had, you know,brian, yeah, yeah, but those are
some of my best friends, I mean, and the ones that couldn't
come to that they would.
Linda Sweezer came by and, youknow, called me and said can I
just have some time with you?
I'm not going to get to makethe going away supper, you know,
but we had the best visit andjust reminisced, you know,
(37:19):
through the years, and if I said, you know, we accomplished a
whole lot, I don't know that wesaw a lot of the fruit that we
wanted to, when we would havethe event and try the day of
dialogues and the true picnicsand and even the joint worship
(37:40):
services and, uh, you know, butI think we made a start in the
minds of some people, but it washard.
I mean, it was hard.
It's not that our people seemto be against it, but they just
didn't take their time to come,the ones, the lot of them that I
wanted to come, you know.
So, uh, but that was uh, thatwas the beginnings of me
(38:02):
understanding a lot about racethat I'd never thought about
before.
Uh, you know, uh know, we had alot of good discussions and to
help me understand it then ithelped me to help my
congregation and it is.
They would hear me talk and ofcourse, they knew my friends.
You know my friends fromMississippi because we'd talk
(38:23):
about them so much.
They'd see them.
They saw them in my pulpitseveral times, see them, they
saw them in my pool pit severaltimes.
So we uh, but it was a, it wasa very rewarding experience and,
uh, but I do think that was thekey was getting the pastors to
know each other first, and therewere a lot of pastors that
would come and go and you couldtell they weren't quite ready.
(38:44):
I don't know if we want to knoweach other too much yet,
because, if I know you, I mayhave to change some ways.
I think you know, and because,in a lot of ways, what I learned
from those pastors and we hadsome we met in Port Gibson and
Randy Burge invited a few of hiscongregation to come to the
(39:12):
pastor meeting and they began toshare some of their feelings of
what they felt growing up andhow they were just little subtle
things we as white pastorsnever even considered, you know,
like how they were treated inthe stores with a white clerk,
or how they even how the change.
(39:33):
They wouldn't put the change intheir hand, they would throw it
on the counter because theydidn't, they didn't, you know,
they didn't want to take achance on touching each other's
hand.
I mean things like that.
I, my, my, my eyes were open toa lot of understanding.
I didn't, I didn't know, youknow, and I didn't think about.
And so I think the informationand education is still needed.
(40:00):
You know it's still needed.
We got a lot of folks that in mychurch would say no, I'm not
prejudiced.
In my church would say no, I'mnot prejudiced.
But then there's things theydon't know about what makes the
other person feel that they'vebeen through, and some of what's
been through needs to bereconciled and moved.
(40:20):
And there's people on bothsides of any relationship that
can't do that, can't let it go,and that's a shame.
That's the only way you cancome to Christ and be reconciled
to God.
You got to let it go, yeah anduh, but it it was, uh, it was a
(40:40):
very it's very enriching part ofmy ministry the years I spent
with those pastors in missionMississippi.
You know we wish we'd have donea lot more and accomplished a
lot more, but it does take a lotof effort, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
You know, pastor, even as you were describing your
experience, one of the thingsthat really resonated with me
was how you talked about Nettieand his, first of all, his
resiliency and just, you know,constantly kind of getting at
you guys and encouraging y'allto gather and to meet and to do
(41:23):
something together, right, andthat resiliency being necessary
yeah, kind of meetingopportunity in the sense that
he's being resilient, but alsothere's some things that's
happening in your church thatraises the alarm, so to speak,
(41:48):
in your mind that this mattersand that we need to take some
steps and some actions to makesure that we speak to this.
And so I think that I thinkthat is how reconciliation works
in general.
Yeah, because a lot of timeswhen we're, when we're just kind
of living our day-to-day lives,we're like, man, I got things
(42:08):
going on, I got things to do.
Um, why, why?
Why do you know who needsanother gathering, who needs
another conversation, this, thatand the other, right, but then
there's something that'll happen.
We saw that.
We saw that in, really in 2020with, uh, george floyd and ahmad
arbery, and, and then, all of asudden, it was like the church
was really jarred into action.
(42:28):
We need to do something we needto.
We need to talk about this, weneed to have conversation.
It's always opportunities thatraise the alarms and that push
people into this Right, but whatkeeps people in this is
intentionality and endurance.
Right, and a commitment thatthis is what the Lord desires
(42:50):
from his church.
Right For us to be united andfor us to be one.
That's what keeps people in it.
So for you, you know it mayhave been what started.
You know the have been.
It may have been what started.
You know the opportunity andthen netty's resilience may have
been what started it right, butobviously what kept you there
was a burden and um and thefriendships and the relationship
right that that the lord giftedyou with along the way is that
(43:12):
was that accurate.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
That is, that's that's right on, you know.
And, uh, when I began to hearthese guys that I had built a
relationship with, talk abouttheir feelings, about things,
that I was listening as a friend, that makes a whole lot of
difference.
You know, we can still notagree on things, but I'm here in
(43:34):
my friend and I'll never forgetsome of the injustice one of
our pastors shared even in thechurch softball league.
You know, a black churchplaying a white church and some
things that were said and doneon the field.
Well, if you'd have told me thatfive years ago, I would have
(43:57):
not been surprised at it.
It wouldn't have moved me tocare about it.
I would just understand theyshouldn't be like that.
What a Christian.
But then, when that story wastold and it affected a friend of
mine, I had tears in my eyeswhen he was telling it.
Right, that makes you want tohey, hey, let me tell you we got
(44:28):
to make sure that changes, youknow, and that Christians are
really Christians.
You know, because I've had alot of churches, had softball
teams, and you wonder where allthese guys are, except during
softball season and they show up.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
You don't see them the rest of the time They'd
count man for everybody's season.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
They'd count man, they'd trade and count.
But that did the most for me isgetting to friends and then
hearing their stories.
And then you know, like theflag, when the Mississippi State
flag, you know, was the issue,I never looked at the rebel flag
(45:16):
as like a thing that was racerelated.
It was just history.
We lived in the south and wefought the north, and you know,
that's all I'd heard all my life, you know.
But then when I heard a friendtell me when I moved from
detroit down to the South andMississippi and I would see a
(45:39):
rebel flag on the back of apickup truck, you know I would,
we would get indoors and Ithought I can't, I can't believe
that.
It's just thoughts I never hadabout that flag.
So that made me think more aboutthe flag issue, cause I, you
know, I mean I, I mean I, I'mnot a flag guy anyway, you know,
(46:00):
yeah, whatever, you know wegotta, but they, they changed
the flag and that upset a lot ofpeople and so I try, okay, but
look, I've heard, well, theydon't mean that.
It don't mean that it don't,you know, I said, but it does
mean that to at least half ofour society.
And and I said, the way I readthe Bible is we're supposed to
(46:20):
care if something offends mybrother, even if I don't think
it's an offense.
If they think it's an offense,I need to be.
You know, the book of Romanstells us, you know, don't eat
meat if it offends your brother.
You know that's been bought inthe pagan temples.
You know, left for each.
(46:40):
You know.
But I thought, you know, I triedto explain that to a lot of our
folks, that's kind of like theflag man that offends some
friends of mine, and so that'swhy I'm okay with it.
Let's get a new flag and putthat past behind us.
You know, now, I think radicalson the other side too, that
(47:01):
won't let that go either.
You know, now, I think radicalson the other side too, that
won't let that go either.
You know, right, right because.
But anyway, I just thoughtthat's the christian response.
You know, to know somebodyenough that their feelings
matter, right and and that thatyou love them.
And if that bothers them andhurts them or brings back bad
memories, then it's not a bigdeal to me, it's right, it's,
(47:23):
it's not, it's not, that's notsomething I want to.
You know, discount fellowshipwith somebody because of,
because of our we have adifference of political, uh,
views, you know, and there's alot of difference in politics,
you, you know, and so, buthaving those conversations with
people who had become friendswas so, so enlightening, it was
(47:46):
so meaningful and, uh, you know.
So I treasure those times and I, you know, I want to, you know,
continue to have those timeswhen I get through this
transition, this transition, youknow, I know there's that I'll
be able to plug back into, youknow, but, but those were, those
were meaningful, and it's thekind of fruit.
(48:06):
Well, it's kind of like seedsbeing planted.
You may not see the fruit fromit, but eventually it's having a
change in hearts and minds andthrough conversations with
people over the course of time,things do change, you know, and
uh, so I think, uh, you know,and I know, I know Mississippi
(48:29):
is a lot different than it usedto be, but we're still needs to
be a lot better.
You know, still some work to bedone.
Yeah, exactly right, exactlyright.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
I can't get Brian Hope man.
He got job security.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Yeah, I do.
I do, lenny, I do have some jobsecurity.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Yeah, I do have some job security.
You solve that issue.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
You got to find another job, that's right,
that's right, and hopefully,prayerfully, one day I'll work
myself out of it.
Hopefully I'll work myself outof it by God's grace.
Hey, let me ask you this lastkind of question to turn Okay,
shift a little bit towards yourcurrent life now, or the current
season of Brian Ivey, as youtransition out of pastoral
(49:23):
ministry.
You know you're, you're, you'renot, you're not in that role,
but the call to, to be one is,as Christ and the father of one
remains the same.
Yeah, right, what does, whatdoes reconciliation look like on
the second end of Brian Ivey's?
Speaker 3 (49:44):
life.
Well, I'll tell you what it'sdone.
My antenna is raised a lothigher now on the race.
Even visiting church, I toldyou we were people on your
heights and I looked around andI saw some diversity there.
So I immediately look aroundthe crowd, okay, and see who's
there.
Well, yeah, got any differentcolors of skin or language, yeah
(50:08):
, but but even in my newneighborhood I've noticed and,
uh, there are some people I wantto meet and maybe pull together
.
We got got races in ourneighborhood and uh, so it's,
it's.
It's made me think, because Iknow god wants me to do
something.
I'll either, you know, once weget our house sold and land in a
(50:29):
church, you know, I either wantto lead groups or just and I
might even try a neighborhoodgroup here just to block parties
, say're going to have aneighborhood cookout and try to
intentionally bring some peopletogether, sure, and just have
some conversations.
But I don't know yet what Godwould have me to do.
(50:51):
I still want to preach and eaton a supply base, something like
that, but I don't know.
God may open up a door, I knowhe will when the time is right
and so, but I still want to beeffective in building the
kingdom, helping God, which iswhy, you know, we've visited
(51:15):
some of the larger churches, butmy heart is more drawn I told
you about the church plant yeah,my heart may be drawn more to
someplace like that where Imight, could help a pastor who
you know the feeling you neverhave enough help.
You know you wish you had somestaff, but you can't afford them
.
And you know, look, man, here'smy background, here's what I
(51:40):
can do.
What, what could, what could Ido to help you?
You know, be more effective.
I can teach people, trainpeople, you know whatever.
So I feel like, uh, when, I,when, when my name gets out
there, and maybe what god wantsfor me, he'll show me the right
door, and uh, but I.
(52:01):
But on the other hand, you know,uh, it's hard to adjust to
retirement because it's like for45 years I've been needed by a
lot of people.
Now, some of them.
I didn't want them to feel likethey needed me, you know, but,
and now it's kind of like mywife needs me, but that's about
(52:23):
it and maybe why it needs me,you know but, but you know, it's
like I'm going through that.
I don't want to lose mysignificance of making a
difference here.
You know I don't.
I don't plan to just enjoy theretirement and that's over.
My ministry is over, you know.
I know it's not.
It's just going to be a newseason, but I'm not sure what
(52:45):
it'll look like yet.
I just have various interests.
I love meeting with groups ofmen and just doing a men's group
.
I had a good group in HighlandI met with every Tuesday morning
at 6 am, about the only time wecould get that group together.
They wouldn't come to most ofour other Bible study offerings
but they'd agree to meet in themorning before they go to work.
(53:08):
And so I like that kind ofthing, you know, but I don't
know I do, but I have, you know,one of the first things I look
at when we're visiting churcheswhat's the congregation makeup?
You know, yeah, and it may beone of these churches you know
(53:29):
might need somebody.
They haven't found somebody tospearhead an intentional
reconciliation ministry, youright, so they may be, they may
be needing the right person tocome along.
I may be that person, body, Idon't know, uh, but I'm just
praying that the lord will showme the the right opportunity,
(53:52):
that I can be a help in some wayand I know he will, he will.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
It's kind of open and prayerfully considering you
know God to open the doors forme to see what I can do next.
You know, amen, amen, yeah,pastor, I tell you you're
already off to a great start,because this was a great podcast
, just gleaning from your wisdomand your years of experience
and comparing, comparing notesfrom the from the past to the
present, and, and and I thinkvery much that that that we need
(54:32):
that kind of wisdom in our ears, in this, in this continued
journey and living out thereconciliation we have in Christ
.
Right, I think you're on theright path and I'm sure the Lord
will continue to make it clearas you continue on.
Thank you so much for joiningus on today's podcast.
Speaker 3 (54:52):
Well, thank you for inviting me and thank you for
your friendship for these lastseveral years.
Nettie, thank you, you've meantso much.
We probably never told you howmuch you meant to our Vicksburg
group, but you know you werejust.
Nettie had the best attitude.
He was the perfect person tocome and spearhead that
(55:15):
Vicksburg group.
You know he's just always hadthe great attitude cheerful,
happy, but very serious aboutwhat he was trying to get us to
see the need for in Vicksburg.
So I appreciate you, nettie, forall those times you came and
you were faithful to come andshow up and our folks, the ones
(55:37):
that got to know you in Georgia,had you preach in our church
and everybody loved that.
I mean, both of y'all did agreat job preaching, so that
helped our church have a greaterdesire to more.
You know, like you know, sothat's.
But I think the pastor'smodeling it know and they, when
(56:00):
they would see me having lunchwith Dexter or Reginald in a
restaurant, you know that wasthe MC and hey, he's not just
talking it, he's trying to.
You know they're really friends, they're having lunch, they're
going to stuff like that.
So I think I think that makes adifference.
You just wish you could see alot of the differences being
made quicker.
You know they're in there.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
Thank you man, thank you brother, and thank you guys
those who are listening in forjoining us on this episode of
Living Reconciled.
We would love for you to sharethis episode, but also just
share the podcast.
So feel free to go out to anypodcast app like subscribe, but
also share with your family,friends, church members as we
continue on in this journey ofreconciliation, having the kind
(56:45):
of conversations and dialoguethat helps us move the needle of
reconciliation in our state.
Again, it's been a greatpleasure to be with our guest,
brian Ivey, and my co-host,nettie Winters.
On behalf of those two, this isBrian Crawford signing off
saying God bless, god bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
(57:05):
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
please visit us online atmission Mississippiorg or call
us at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Joining us on episode 57 ofLiving Reconciled.
I'm your host, brian Crawford,and I am with good friends today
(00:35):
.
One such good friend is myco-host, nettie Winters.
Sir, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Man, I am blessed beyond measure, I'm excited and
I'm really excited about ourguest today.
Man, I got all my jabs you knowlined up and I'm really going
to enjoy this.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Absolutely, I'm sure you will.
I'm sure you will.
Before we introduce our guest,I do want to give a quick
shout-out and thanks to oursponsors, folks like Nissan, st
Dominic's Hospital, atmos Energy, regis Foundation, brown
Missionary Baptist Church,christian Life Church, ms Doris
Powell, mr Robert Ward, ms AnnWinters.
Thank you so much foreverything that you do for
Living Reconciled in MissionMississippi.
(01:14):
It's because of what you dothat we're able to do what we do
, and we would love, if you havea desire, to invest in the work
of reconciliation.
We would love your support.
Please go out tomissionmississippiorg, click on
the donate button at the top ofthe page and you too can support
the work of reconciliation andsupport great activities like
(01:34):
this podcast.
This podcast today is with avery good friend, and I don't
say that lightly.
He's a dear friend to bothNettie and myself Pastor Brian
Ivey.
And Pastor Brian Ivey recentlyretired from Highland Baptist
Church in Vicksburg, mississippi, where he served a long and
(01:55):
faithful tenure, and we willhave him chat a little bit with
you about that.
But Pastor Brian Ivey is now aresident of Gluckstadt,
mississippi, with his beautifulbride.
Pastor Ivey, how are you doing,sir.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I'm doing great Brian .
It's good to see both you andNettie today.
Man, glad to be with y'all.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So, Pastor, tell us a little bit about your family,
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself, how you came to faith
in Christ and also how you endedup at Highland Baptist Church.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Okay, sure.
Well, I'm married to my wifeCarla, and we've been married.
This August It'll be 43 yearsand we have two grown sons.
Joseph lives here in theMadison area close to us, and my
son Dan, and he has a family aswell.
So all together we have sixgrandkids.
(02:48):
And I came to know the Lord in aChristian home.
My parents were Christians andactually my dad was a pastor for
a long time, and so I knewabout Christ from the very
earliest memories I have.
But I think my parents weresaved when I was about three, so
(03:09):
I don't remember anything aboutlife, you know, before three.
So basically brought up in thechurch and most of those years
as a pastor's kid.
But when I was 12, I made mydecision.
I knew I needed Jesus as mySavior several years before that
(03:30):
, but I was always a shy personand just had trouble making a
public profession of faith.
But when I was 12, I reallygave my life to the Lord and
surrendered to Him, and then hebegan to lead me and guide me
and I was just a churchgoer.
You know the rest of my growingup years, but when I was a
(03:51):
senior in high school I began tosense God calling me into the
ministry.
It was the last thing I wantedGod to do to me.
You know, because I grew up,you know on the inside of
looking at that kind of life and, uh right, no, a lot of
frustration, a lot of difficulty.
And and on the inside of apastor's home, you know, with
(04:13):
watching what your father has todeal with, you know with people
in churches and moving around alot, and you know so, uh, but
anyway I, I finally.
It took me three years, butwhen I was a sophomore in
college, I surrendered to theministry and said, yes, lord,
I'll do it.
I said I can't do it because Idon't know why you would pick
(04:34):
somebody who's shy and doesn'tlike to speak in front of people
.
And I was terrified.
I really was, but I knew that'sthe only thing God wanted for
my life and I just realized Ineed to give my life to him and
let him work through me the besthe wanted to.
You know, and it's been areally wonderful journey ever
(04:57):
since that moment.
My first church was in 1979, andthen Highland was my fourth
church and so I moved there fromHattiesburg.
I pastored at First BaptistGlendale in Hattiesburg and so
when I came to Highland, I endedup being the pastor at 37 years
(05:17):
of age and stayed till I wasalmost 67.
So 30 years past, years past,actually 29 but if I'd have
stayed till my birthday, uh,this august and, you know, next
month, it would have been 30years.
But uh, so it was.
Uh, it was a, it was a greatministry, it was a great, great
(05:37):
time, uh, and it was there thatI really, you know, got involved
with, uh, racial reconciliationon a much larger scale than I
had at any other church.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
What changed from the time that you started or what
most changed to you in pastoralministry from the time that you
started to the time that youretired?
What were some of the biggestchanges and shifts in leading a
church?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
In that process did you overcome your.
What did you say?
You was terrorized.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Yeah, I don't know that I overcome it.
I'm still not comfortable.
You know, nettie's probablybeen after me for three or four
years to appear on camera and beinterviewed or radioed or
something, and it's not my thing.
And it's not my thing now, butbecause I just always I'm more
of a, by the way.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
what did Brian offer you to get you all here?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Well, he told me you would take me on a nice
restaurant.
You'd take me to the nicestrestaurant around the Jackson
area and buy me the mostexpensive meal on the menu.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
He told me he would be glad to do that.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
He'd take me up on that any day.
Well, I know he's a man of hisword too, because it's public
now.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I'll even let you come with me, brian Ivey, okay.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's, yeah, he, I really.
You know people find this hardto believe because, especially
when I've told the story inchurch.
But in high school I would takezeros when it was time to do
oral book reports.
You know it was popular in myday.
You know you read a book andyou stand up in front of the
(07:29):
class and tell about it.
I would take a zero every time,which meant my grade point
average in high school was not.
It did not reflect how smart Ireally am.
You know, wow, wow, but I justcouldn't do it.
I wouldn't do it.
And because you know, taking azero each semester of English,
you know doesn't do good foryour overall grade.
(07:49):
You know it does, it does.
You know God just gave me thestrength to be able to overcome
that.
I'm still uncomfortable with it.
I still get nervous, you know,speaking in a crowd, but I think
for me it was kind of likePaul's thorn in the flesh.
It was just like a reminder.
(08:10):
God said this will let you knowyou need me.
You can't do this without me.
This is not you.
You don't want to do it, butI'm going to show you I can do
it through you.
And so he has and he's blessed,you know, to give me a
wonderful 45 years of pastoralministry, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Speaking of that 45, what you know, jump back, if we
could real quick, because Iwould love to get your insight
and your feedback.
Through those 45 years, wherehave you seen the biggest shifts
and biggest change in the worldof pastoral ministry?
Biggest shifts and biggestchange in the world of pastoral
ministry?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I think, the biggest change for me.
Of course, there's been a lotof technology changes, a lot of,
you know.
I never thought when I startedpreaching that I'd ever have to
worry about how to do aPowerPoint presentation or
prepare for a podcast or do livestreaming, you know, or any you
know.
So all of that, of course, hasbeen a learning stage, you know,
or any you know.
So all of that, of course, hasbeen a learning stage.
(09:08):
You know, all along the way,but probably for the first
number of years I was in thepastorate, very little changed,
you know, because most everybodyhad the same expectation of a
pastor, and I guess what changedmore than anything was my
desire to learn how to lead achurch, to be relevant and to
(09:29):
grow and reach people.
And unfortunately, a lot ofthat involved not being the
pastor that most churches expect, which is more of a chaplain
hey, visit us when we're sick,do our funerals when we die,
marry our kids when they, youknow, get old.
And, in addition to all that,let's grow the church and reach
(09:53):
a lot of people, you know.
And so trying to fight thatbattle of how to transition
myself from being what everybodyneeded me to be to being a more
of a change agent to see whatwhat in the church needs to
change.
Not that everything needed tochange, but we had so many
(10:13):
traditions.
You know that, especially inBaptist life, you could go to
another church and you know it'dbe most everybody had the same
tradition.
You know they do the Lord'ssupper once a month.
You know, second second, mosteverybody had the same tradition
.
You know they do the Lord'sSupper once a month.
You know, second Sunday of themonth of the quarter.
You know there were a lot ofthose things that were similar
(10:34):
and most of the people were thesame and most of the problems I
encountered were the same.
They just had different names.
You know, and you always hadyour problem people, your needy
people, the ones, as they say,the squeaky wheel gets the most
grease.
You know that would 10, 10% ofthe people would want to occupy
90% of your time and your energy, you know, and uh, so those
(10:57):
were some of the struggles, butI really uh, you say those
struggles remain the samethroughout.
Yeah, right, yeah from beginningto end.
Yeah, exactly, but I think thechange in how you build bridges
to people changed Used to.
For years we had weeklyvisitation nights.
(11:19):
We'd get a group of people govisit on Monday night or Tuesday
night, knock on doors, try toshare their fate, you know, and
increasingly that got harder todo for a couple of reasons.
First of all, culture.
You know the Olympics is comingup and I'll never forget
knocking on somebody's door inthe 1990s on a Monday night and
(11:44):
they screamed from the back ofthe house in the TV room and
said go away, we're watching theOlympics.
And so I had hollered.
They said who is it?
I said I'm Pastor Brian Ivey,holla Baptist Church.
Well, go away, we're watchingthe Olympics.
And so a lot of people you knowdidn't want.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That's an excellent invitation.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, right, well, go away that's so that people
began to not want people tovisit, you know, church, you
know, and, and the time, andeven our own people who became
so centered on many other thingsin the community activities
(12:30):
with kids, all the involvementwith the recreation activities
and you got families, you know,increasingly devoting more of
their time at the ballpark thanto the work of the Lord and the
church.
And that's probably the hardestthing I've found, you know, is
(12:50):
trying to figure out what do wedo with that.
You know, what do you do withthat?
Everybody wants a growingchildren's ministry, but it
takes a lot of people to makethat happen.
Everybody wants a dynamic,growing youth group, but it
takes a lot of support beyondthe staff, you know, to make
that happen.
Everybody wants a dynamic,growing youth group, but it
takes a lot of support beyondthe staff, you know, to make
that happen.
And it got to where a lot ofpeople I'd love to do that, I
(13:13):
just don't have time.
I got this to do and that to doand you know you got work.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I want to interrupt you just for a moment.
You talked about knocking ondoors, yes, and how they change
because of the culture and, youknow, technology and so forth.
What do you believe?
You know, I remember when wewent.
I just can't think about thehours and money and labor and
time we spent with.
What was that?
(13:41):
Evangelism explosion, yeahright, and the dead hat when we
stopped knocking on doors anddoing those kinds of things.
And and now it's facebook's andyou know, tweet and twits and
all of those things.
How did that affect people?
You know they're falling off of, uh, you know, some of the
(14:02):
mainline churches anddenominations they had.
It's falling off.
You think that had something todo with it?
You wouldn't stop doing a lotof things in person.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Uh, in terms of that, that I'm not sure it had much
effect on the end result.
Uh, because I I think we did alot of that out of expectations
we had of ourselves.
This will make us look likegood christians if we go to
visitation night or we go, we'rea part of evangelism explosion,
(14:30):
you know, because we I triedall of those programs as a
pastor and and they we didn'thave significant numbers of
people coming to Christ, youknow.
So when we began to transition,that was part of my my dilemma
was to figure out or to want todo something that was fruitful,
(14:51):
not just because we've alwaysdone it, and so we went more
toward outreach events and triedto teach our people.
Let's build connections.
We're going to have a fish fry.
You invite your friends who youwork with that.
Don't go to church, tell themto come.
Or we're going to have a fallfestival.
Or you know, on Halloween night, hey, you get this.
(15:11):
Tell the community, all yourneighbors come to the.
We're having a fun night forkids, you know.
And then you know, try to trainour people.
You build connections withpeople who come through, you
know, get to befriend them.
You know, and show someinterest.
And actually we would have whenwe started doing that and we
had a few diehard visiting.
(15:31):
People said you've killedoutreach in our church.
You're not having Monday nightvisitation anymore.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
You just took it out and shot it.
Man, You're killing it.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Right, I said.
But look, I said we're havingmore visitors now that we're not
knocking on doors, you knowthan we've ever had, because
we're really trying to get toknow them where they are, you
know right, and to go to themand force them.
Hey, sit and talk with me 30minutes.
Let me tell you why you shouldcome to our church.
And uh, so it, that was, uh,that was a hard sale, because
(16:04):
you had, you had the culturechanging around me.
You know that, like we got todo different to reach the people
.
Now, you know, but then you hadto battle the church folks who
were still steeped in tradition,like, well, we've always done
this and you're doing away withsome good things we've done.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
You know, brian.
I just want to interrupt thereand say you know, it's always
interesting to me, those diehardfolks that says what you're
doing.
You know.
I said to them you know, thisis not going to prevent you to
continue to do that which youthink works.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Go right in and continue to knock on the door,
man but they did Right, that'sright, yeah, and you know things
like.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
You know.
When I decided in the year 2000, it was time we could spend our
time better on Sunday eveningsthan just having another worship
service, you know.
So we quit having Sunday nightchurch Now I'm not knocking
anybody who still does that,there are settings, that that's
still a good thing, you know.
But for us I was preaching tothe same people who had been
(17:12):
Christians for 40 years andnobody was going to come to know
Christ because we had Sundaynight worship, you know.
And so we went more to groupsand try to involve young
families and provide activitiesfor their kids, so the parents,
you know, could be in a smallgroup, you know.
And so that was a, you know,that was a change I never, I
(17:35):
just expected, you know, when Iwas in seminary, one of my
seminary professors said youknow, guys, you want to know how
to be a great pastor, you justlove the people, you love your
people and God will bless yourchurch.
Well, and I admired thatseminary professor and I think
there was a time he was comingfrom.
That was true, Right, right,but it didn't work for me.
(17:58):
I loved them all, but theydidn't think I did because I
didn't visit them.
You know, you've been a pastorthree years and you haven't been
in my home yet.
And I used to joke because mywife's grandmother, she used to
make fun of her church members.
She was a church planter beforeit was even a term in Panama
(18:19):
City, florida and she was alwayspushing her church.
We need to start a church overhere, we need to start a mission
church over here in this partof the county, and she went out
several times and became achurch planning team even before
home.
You know that was.
That was before the wholemission board even knew that
term, you know, let alone NorthAmerican Mission Board.
(18:39):
But but she said she said thesepeople that say the pastor
won't come tell will come visitme.
She said I just tell him, honey,I invite him over for lunch and
he always comes, you know.
So she said invite him.
But you know she said when Iwant to talk to him, I invite
(19:04):
him over for lunch and he alwayscomes.
You know which is.
But people, you know, wantedyou to.
But that's what that seminaryprofessor was saying how you
take because he actually gotspecific, get your membership
role, go visit in every home.
The first year you're at thatchurch and man, they'll love you
and follow you anywhere but andI think in the day that's
(19:29):
probably true you know but butthey, they wouldn't yell for you
to go away, yeah.
No, they had different year,different eras, different times.
Yeah, those were.
It was more respect, you know,for church and pastors, you know
, in the community.
I mean that you know in thecommunity.
I mean that was in a day whenyou know a coach wouldn't dare
(19:50):
have a practice or a game on aweeknight or a sunday afternoon,
right, stuff like that.
So it was a different day.
So, just seeing the changes inculture, you ask, the biggest
change, you know, is seeing thechanges in culture, but also
seeing how hard it it was forChristian people to adapt to
(20:11):
those changes, to be relevantand fulfill our mission, because
the mission's been the same,you know, in commission, and so
that's the goal and trying toadapt to the changes both
outside the church and insidethe church.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
To see, you think we've made that transition?
Have we made a transition basedon how the culture has changed.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I think some churches have, but I think it's a very
small percentage of the churches.
I think, you know, used to,there was a statistic used to be
quoted and this was even in aslate as the late 80s and early
90s.
You know, used to, there was astatistic used to be quoted and
this was even in as late as thelate 80s and early 90s.
You know that 80% of ourSouthern Baptist churches which
is the only denomination I'm,you know, was really plugged
(21:01):
into with statistics and stuff.
80% were plateaued and dyingand only 20% were growing.
And then in just a few yearsbeyond that, then it was 85% are
plateaued or dying, only 15%,and the numbers kept going up.
But you did have a few brightspots along the way of churches
(21:27):
did some very different kinds ofthings not changing the mission
but adapting themselves to theculture, so the mission becomes
more fruitful, I think.
I think there are some churchesthat have gotten it right and I
hope the churches I pastoredwere a little better at it when
I left than when I, when I wentthere, you know.
(21:48):
But that was a hard learningcurve for me too.
Um, because I had, you know, Iwent to a lot of conferences and
leadership things to try tolearn, you know, what, what
people were doing that seemed towork.
You know a lot of, a lot of.
I did a lot of studying andreading books on how do you lead
(22:09):
change, how do you become achange agent without getting
fired, you know, and that kindof thing.
But so that was to me.
It was always a struggle to seehow can we be better at
reaching people for Christ.
You know, because there were noeasy answers to that.
It wasn't like.
(22:30):
I think for a long time time atSouthern Baptist we had this
formula and I got in on the endof the Sunday school craze.
You know, you grew through theSunday school.
You multiply and divide classesand you reach new people and
you know you could continue toenlarge your structure and you
keep your of prospects and youassign that to everybody in the
(22:51):
age groups.
You reach these they don't goto church anywhere.
You reach out to these theydon't go to church.
And that was a great model forthe time and I was a big
proponent of it.
I was a big Sunday schoolpastor.
Probably three of the churchesI pastored out of four.
We grew through the Sundayschool and adopting that model.
(23:14):
But then culture changed wherepeople wanted their classes to
be more support groups insteadof outreach groups.
And there's a place even insmall group ministries, you know
, to have support groups.
But you got to have some wayfor new people to be assimilated
(23:35):
and invited to come to some ofthose connection times and I
think even some of the smallgroup ministry.
We tried it, you know, atHighland.
You know it was like we startedoff pretty good but then after
a while the groups were contentwith who was in their group and
we forgot the people that wehave a reach or the people that
(23:58):
may visit on a Sunday, and ourfirst thought was not okay, how
can we connect them to one ofour groups?
I think the hardest struggle forme was keeping people focused.
Here's why we're here, we exist.
First time I heard this.
It's been quoted by manyleaders through the years.
(24:20):
The first time I heard it wasfrom Harry Pylan, who was the
director of what was then calledthe Sunday School Board in
Nashville.
He said that the main missionof our church is to exist for
people who are not yet a part ofit.
You know, that's why we're hereis for people who are not a
part of us yet.
(24:41):
Wow, you know, wow.
And so that always stuck in mymind.
But it was hard to watchculture change and then watch
people change within our church,and and the models we were
still trying to use were, wereineffective, but yet we didn't
want to change them.
(25:01):
And uh, it was.
Uh, you know, I didn't expectthat.
Uh, you know, I didn't expectthat.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And you didn't expect that and you throw, pastor, one
of the things as I think aboutchange and the conversation
we're having about changethrough the decades and shifts
through the decades.
But on a positive side, one ofthe things that I think we saw a
major shift through the decadesthat you were pretty
(25:29):
instrumental in, a reallyintegral part of, was the shift
racially in terms ofreconciliation, the emphasis on
racial healing.
Talk to us a little bit aboutyour time on the front end
versus your time on the back endof reconciliation work in the
(25:50):
deep south Mississippi.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Well, part of my first church was an Indian
church in South Alabama.
It was North Mobile County.
Actually, for years the HomeMission Board had appointed a
home missionary to work withwhat they called the Mowah
Indians.
Mowah meant Mobile County,washington County.
There was a segment of people.
(26:15):
They were called Cajuns in thelocal area but they were
actually Indians that had mixedin, some with white, some with
black, so there were someinterracial.
But that was my first church andthere were probably more darker
people in my congregation.
It was only 15 people when Iwent there but there were more
darker-skinned people thanlight-skinned people.
(26:36):
In that that was a greatexperience.
In many ways that was.
The greatest time of myministry was the six years I
spent there, because we grewfrom about 15 to about 60 in six
years, which percentage-wise,it looks good on paper but it's
still only 60.
(26:57):
But it was a good place for meto learn and so we actually
joined.
I led them to join the MobileBaptist Association and I had
some pastor friends of mine from.
This was a college pastorate,but I had some other friends you
(27:18):
know in the ministry said doyou know what you're doing?
You're going to lead thatchurch to join the association
and you know some of ourchurches may not like that, you
know, because there's somedarker skin people in that
community, you know, and thesewere kind of outplayed from
everybody else and I hadn't eventhought of that, I thought,
(27:38):
never even crossed my mind.
But I remember, and one of thedarkest skin guys, who was one
of my lay leaders, accompaniedme and a little old white haired
retired school teacher.
They were the two leaders of achurch.
They accompanied me to thatassociational meeting and all of
the uh messengers.
(27:58):
And these were back whenmessenger, when associational
meetings were a big deal, youknow and you would, and in the
mobile baptist association a lotof churches, you know too.
And when the recommendation wasmade after we'd gone through
the credentials committee anddid all the application process,
they overwhelmingly adopted usinto the association and I'll
(28:19):
never forget watching it.
The whole crowd stood up andgave that vote a standing
ovation and me standing therewith a little old white-skinned
lady with gray hair, never beenmarried, a schoolteacher but yet
had some Indian blood in herancestry, and then a really
(28:41):
dark-skinned guy who was arecipient of an in-black mixture
race.
So that was a good start.
You know that.
I mean I, I didn't have anyracial problems there and and
cause the community was kind ofisolated to itself.
So but they loved me andrespected me and man, I, I had,
(29:03):
I endured that.
So then I remember my nextchurch I pastored.
I got a call from a deacon onetime one day and he said hey,
pastor, brother, I need to askyou a question.
I said I need you to show me inthe Bible.
(29:23):
He had three teenage daughters.
He said I need you to help mefind in the Bible where it says
that my daughters don't need todate any black guys.
So I kind of went silent for aminute, you know, because I'd
never been asked that before,never expected to be asked that,
right, right, and I said I tookthe easy way out at first.
(29:48):
I said well, let me get back toyou on that.
Let me do a little studying,get my scriptures in mind, let
me get back to you.
So I called.
At that time the ChristianAction Commission director was
Paul Jones, in MississippiBaptist.
I said Dr Jones, I need somehelp, man.
(30:11):
I said y'all got any stuff onrace relations?
He said yeah, we do.
There's some pamphlets, there'ssome things.
You know, there's some things.
I said well, I got this deaconthat.
Well, we're in the Bible,there's not supposed to be
marriage between the races.
I said I know what the answeris, but I just need to know some
(30:31):
good ways to present it.
He said you're right, there'sno biblical admonition against
that.
You know.
So, anyway, we.
So in that church, you know, wedidn't have, we didn't have any
confrontations or issues withany families.
(30:52):
There was not any.
This was a rural church.
I don't think we even had manyAfrican-Americans living in our
community.
You know, we never had anythinggo on there.
You know, thing anything go onthere.
(31:14):
You know, and uh, but it was uh, but teaching, teaching him and
, of course, the rest of thechurch, that there is nothing in
the bible.
Here's what the bible says, youknow, and those scriptures that
were used years ago or were noteven talking about black white
issue, you know, Right, right,it was uh.
So anyway, we.
So that I started the educationlike teach, here's what the
(31:37):
Bible really says about race,everybody.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Okay, so did that?
I guess that encounter?
Yeah, it opened a door or anopportunity.
It sounds like for you toactually begin to teach Right.
Okay, right, opportunity.
It sounds like for you toactually begin the team Right.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Okay Right, oh yeah, go, continue.
Right, we got to call Paul Nealto print that brochure and
publish it about dismissing themyth about crossing races and
things that they hadmisinterpreted in the Old
Testament.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
That could have been.
I don't know, that may havealready been written, but you
know.
But yeah, he was very helpful,but that was the see I'd never.
Up until that time, I wouldnever have thought about, I
never thought about.
You know, let me do a, let medo a series about race, race
relationship, you know, you know, I think I just part of it was
(32:24):
how I grew up.
I grew up I really feel like Iwas taught, you know,
everybody's important and I hadblack friends in school.
Uh, grandma, even in the firstgrade.
You know, that was the early,uh, early sixties, 60, the, yeah
, probably 63, 64, 65.
(32:44):
And, uh, you know, but I neverthought, why is there only one
or two black kids in my class?
You know it just.
But I was friends with them andwe would do things together at
school and, uh, then in, uh,later grammar years, you know, I
was good friends.
I remember writing.
We went to a school fair and,uh, we had a couple of black
(33:06):
guys in our class in about thefifth grade and so we all rode
the Ferris wheel together.
I was in the middle and each ofthem were on the other side of
me, but I don't ever rememberour class having an issue with
that, but I never thought why isthere only two?
There's a lot more black peoplelive in this city.
(33:31):
But when I got to high school itwas a whole different thing.
I went to a large high school,harrison Central High School,
north of Gulfport, and we had alot of racial tension there.
There was a lot of fighting, alot of, and I was not used to
that.
I was not.
I had not ever been around that, wasn't really aware that it
(33:53):
was a problem.
You know, we just were taughtyou love everybody, you care
about everybody, and you know,and we played for kids, with
kids in the neighborhood.
We just lived in neighborhoodswhere there were no black kids
and didn't really think about itbeing.
It's not because we don't wantthem, it's just they're not here
.
You know we didn't really thinkabout it being it's not because
we don't want them, it's justthey're not here.
You know we didn't, we didn'tthink about that, you know.
(34:14):
But I was.
But I always, I always had.
I remember boo, boo and uh whenI was in junior high.
He was, he was one of my bestfriends and lonnie taylor was
his actual name, and uh but uh.
So we always had a greatrelationship one-on-one.
But when I started encounteringother people who were very, uh,
(34:37):
anti being friends with otherraces, that was uh, that was
difficult because got the peerpressure thing that he you know.
So when I came to highland, uh,it came to a head when we had
our first black family,african-american family, and I
(34:58):
would have said up until thatpoint, you know, our church
welcomes everybody and we did,we.
We welcomed them to visit, butwhen they joined it did
something to a handful of people.
I went through a lot ofstruggles with a few those one
did you sell to terry?
I tried, yeah but you know I, soI had to get my notes out from
(35:22):
the bible and race and that Idid all that.
You know we had to go through aWednesday night Bible study.
It got it and I'm very thankful.
It was a very small group ofpeople and we ended up losing
some people over there andactually we had some.
I asked to leave because ofthat and uh, but uh, but I was
(35:48):
really thankful it was verysmall number, but, but that,
that kind of opened my eyes.
We haven't done, I had not donemuch to prevent, to prevent that
before it came to a hit, youknow, and uh.
So then you know, as I began topreach more sermons on race and
(36:11):
you know when I would come tothe passages where you could
really jump off on racialreconciliation, you know, then I
made, I was more intentionaland about that time Nettie
Winters, uh, kept coming over toVicksburg wanting to meet with
pastors and bug the stew out ofus to start some kind of weekly
with pastors and bug the stewout of us to start some kind of
(36:34):
weekly.
So thank God for Nettie doingthat, cause that that's what
helped us, have the desire to.
Okay, we do need to work onthis.
We do need to meet together.
And and, uh, and those guys, uh, you know, uh, it's been a
number of years, you know, butthose are some of my best
friends.
They all, you know, came andyou were at the little going
(36:56):
away supper we had, you know,brian, yeah, yeah, but those are
some of my best friends, I mean, and the ones that couldn't
come to that they would.
Linda Sweezer came by and, youknow, called me and said can I
just have some time with you?
I'm not going to get to makethe going away supper, you know,
but we had the best visit andjust reminisced, you know,
(37:19):
through the years, and if I said, you know, we accomplished a
whole lot, I don't know that wesaw a lot of the fruit that we
wanted to, when we would havethe event and try the day of
dialogues and the true picnicsand and even the joint worship
(37:40):
services and, uh, you know, butI think we made a start in the
minds of some people, but it washard.
I mean, it was hard.
It's not that our people seemto be against it, but they just
didn't take their time to come,the ones, the lot of them that I
wanted to come, you know.
So, uh, but that was uh, thatwas the beginnings of me
(38:02):
understanding a lot about racethat I'd never thought about
before.
Uh, you know, uh know, we had alot of good discussions and to
help me understand it then ithelped me to help my
congregation and it is.
They would hear me talk and ofcourse, they knew my friends.
You know my friends fromMississippi because we'd talk
(38:23):
about them so much.
They'd see them.
They saw them in my pulpitseveral times, see them, they
saw them in my pool pit severaltimes.
So we uh, but it was a, it wasa very rewarding experience and,
uh, but I do think that was thekey was getting the pastors to
know each other first, and therewere a lot of pastors that
would come and go and you couldtell they weren't quite ready.
(38:44):
I don't know if we want to knoweach other too much yet,
because, if I know you, I mayhave to change some ways.
I think you know, and because,in a lot of ways, what I learned
from those pastors and we hadsome we met in Port Gibson and
Randy Burge invited a few of hiscongregation to come to the
(39:12):
pastor meeting and they began toshare some of their feelings of
what they felt growing up andhow they were just little subtle
things we as white pastorsnever even considered, you know,
like how they were treated inthe stores with a white clerk,
or how they even how the change.
(39:33):
They wouldn't put the change intheir hand, they would throw it
on the counter because theydidn't, they didn't, you know,
they didn't want to take achance on touching each other's
hand.
I mean things like that.
I, my, my, my eyes were open toa lot of understanding.
I didn't, I didn't know, youknow, and I didn't think about.
And so I think the informationand education is still needed.
(40:00):
You know it's still needed.
We got a lot of folks that in mychurch would say no, I'm not
prejudiced.
In my church would say no, I'mnot prejudiced.
But then there's things theydon't know about what makes the
other person feel that they'vebeen through, and some of what's
been through needs to bereconciled and moved.
(40:20):
And there's people on bothsides of any relationship that
can't do that, can't let it go,and that's a shame.
That's the only way you cancome to Christ and be reconciled
to God.
You got to let it go, yeah anduh, but it it was, uh, it was a
(40:40):
very it's very enriching part ofmy ministry the years I spent
with those pastors in missionMississippi.
You know we wish we'd have donea lot more and accomplished a
lot more, but it does take a lotof effort, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
You know, pastor, even as you were describing your
experience, one of the thingsthat really resonated with me
was how you talked about Nettieand his, first of all, his
resiliency and just, you know,constantly kind of getting at
you guys and encouraging y'allto gather and to meet and to do
(41:23):
something together, right, andthat resiliency being necessary
yeah, kind of meetingopportunity in the sense that
he's being resilient, but alsothere's some things that's
happening in your church thatraises the alarm, so to speak,
(41:48):
in your mind that this mattersand that we need to take some
steps and some actions to makesure that we speak to this.
And so I think that I thinkthat is how reconciliation works
in general.
Yeah, because a lot of timeswhen we're, when we're just kind
of living our day-to-day lives,we're like, man, I got things
(42:08):
going on, I got things to do.
Um, why, why?
Why do you know who needsanother gathering, who needs
another conversation, this, thatand the other, right, but then
there's something that'll happen.
We saw that.
We saw that in, really in 2020with, uh, george floyd and ahmad
arbery, and, and then, all of asudden, it was like the church
was really jarred into action.
(42:28):
We need to do something we needto.
We need to talk about this, weneed to have conversation.
It's always opportunities thatraise the alarms and that push
people into this Right, but whatkeeps people in this is
intentionality and endurance.
Right, and a commitment thatthis is what the Lord desires
(42:50):
from his church.
Right For us to be united andfor us to be one.
That's what keeps people in it.
So for you, you know it mayhave been what started.
You know the have been.
It may have been what started.
You know the opportunity andthen netty's resilience may have
been what started it right, butobviously what kept you there
was a burden and um and thefriendships and the relationship
right that that the lord giftedyou with along the way is that
(43:12):
was that accurate.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
That is, that's that's right on, you know.
And, uh, when I began to hearthese guys that I had built a
relationship with, talk abouttheir feelings, about things,
that I was listening as a friend, that makes a whole lot of
difference.
You know, we can still notagree on things, but I'm here in
(43:34):
my friend and I'll never forgetsome of the injustice one of
our pastors shared even in thechurch softball league.
You know, a black churchplaying a white church and some
things that were said and doneon the field.
Well, if you'd have told me thatfive years ago, I would have
(43:57):
not been surprised at it.
It wouldn't have moved me tocare about it.
I would just understand theyshouldn't be like that.
What a Christian.
But then, when that story wastold and it affected a friend of
mine, I had tears in my eyeswhen he was telling it.
Right, that makes you want tohey, hey, let me tell you we got
(44:28):
to make sure that changes, youknow, and that Christians are
really Christians.
You know, because I've had alot of churches, had softball
teams, and you wonder where allthese guys are, except during
softball season and they show up.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
You don't see them the rest of the time They'd
count man for everybody's season.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
They'd count man, they'd trade and count.
But that did the most for me isgetting to friends and then
hearing their stories.
And then you know, like theflag, when the Mississippi State
flag, you know, was the issue,I never looked at the rebel flag
(45:16):
as like a thing that was racerelated.
It was just history.
We lived in the south and wefought the north, and you know,
that's all I'd heard all my life, you know.
But then when I heard a friendtell me when I moved from
detroit down to the South andMississippi and I would see a
(45:39):
rebel flag on the back of apickup truck, you know I would,
we would get indoors and Ithought I can't, I can't believe
that.
It's just thoughts I never hadabout that flag.
So that made me think more aboutthe flag issue, cause I, you
know, I mean I, I mean I, I'mnot a flag guy anyway, you know,
(46:00):
yeah, whatever, you know wegotta, but they, they changed
the flag and that upset a lot ofpeople and so I try, okay, but
look, I've heard, well, theydon't mean that.
It don't mean that it don't,you know, I said, but it does
mean that to at least half ofour society.
And and I said, the way I readthe Bible is we're supposed to
(46:20):
care if something offends mybrother, even if I don't think
it's an offense.
If they think it's an offense,I need to be.
You know, the book of Romanstells us, you know, don't eat
meat if it offends your brother.
You know that's been bought inthe pagan temples.
You know, left for each.
(46:40):
You know.
But I thought, you know, I triedto explain that to a lot of our
folks, that's kind of like theflag man that offends some
friends of mine, and so that'swhy I'm okay with it.
Let's get a new flag and putthat past behind us.
You know, now, I think radicalson the other side too, that
(47:01):
won't let that go either.
You know, now, I think radicalson the other side too, that
won't let that go either.
You know, right, right because.
But anyway, I just thoughtthat's the christian response.
You know, to know somebodyenough that their feelings
matter, right and and that thatyou love them.
And if that bothers them andhurts them or brings back bad
memories, then it's not a bigdeal to me, it's right, it's,
(47:23):
it's not, it's not, that's notsomething I want to.
You know, discount fellowshipwith somebody because of,
because of our we have adifference of political, uh,
views, you know, and there's alot of difference in politics,
you, you know, and so, buthaving those conversations with
people who had become friendswas so, so enlightening, it was
(47:46):
so meaningful and, uh, you know.
So I treasure those times and I, you know, I want to, you know,
continue to have those timeswhen I get through this
transition, this transition, youknow, I know there's that I'll
be able to plug back into, youknow, but, but those were, those
were meaningful, and it's thekind of fruit.
(48:06):
Well, it's kind of like seedsbeing planted.
You may not see the fruit fromit, but eventually it's having a
change in hearts and minds andthrough conversations with
people over the course of time,things do change, you know, and
uh, so I think, uh, you know,and I know, I know Mississippi
(48:29):
is a lot different than it usedto be, but we're still needs to
be a lot better.
You know, still some work to bedone.
Yeah, exactly right, exactlyright.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
I can't get Brian Hope man.
He got job security.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Yeah, I do.
I do, lenny, I do have some jobsecurity.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Yeah, I do have some job security.
You solve that issue.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
You got to find another job, that's right,
that's right, and hopefully,prayerfully, one day I'll work
myself out of it.
Hopefully I'll work myself outof it by God's grace.
Hey, let me ask you this lastkind of question to turn Okay,
shift a little bit towards yourcurrent life now, or the current
season of Brian Ivey, as youtransition out of pastoral
(49:23):
ministry.
You know you're, you're, you'renot, you're not in that role,
but the call to, to be one is,as Christ and the father of one
remains the same.
Yeah, right, what does, whatdoes reconciliation look like on
the second end of Brian Ivey's?
Speaker 3 (49:44):
life.
Well, I'll tell you what it'sdone.
My antenna is raised a lothigher now on the race.
Even visiting church, I toldyou we were people on your
heights and I looked around andI saw some diversity there.
So I immediately look aroundthe crowd, okay, and see who's
there.
Well, yeah, got any differentcolors of skin or language, yeah
(50:08):
, but but even in my newneighborhood I've noticed and,
uh, there are some people I wantto meet and maybe pull together
.
We got got races in ourneighborhood and uh, so it's,
it's.
It's made me think, because Iknow god wants me to do
something.
I'll either, you know, once weget our house sold and land in a
(50:29):
church, you know, I either wantto lead groups or just and I
might even try a neighborhoodgroup here just to block parties
, say're going to have aneighborhood cookout and try to
intentionally bring some peopletogether, sure, and just have
some conversations.
But I don't know yet what Godwould have me to do.
(50:51):
I still want to preach and eaton a supply base, something like
that, but I don't know.
God may open up a door, I knowhe will when the time is right
and so, but I still want to beeffective in building the
kingdom, helping God, which iswhy, you know, we've visited
(51:15):
some of the larger churches, butmy heart is more drawn I told
you about the church plant yeah,my heart may be drawn more to
someplace like that where Imight, could help a pastor who
you know the feeling you neverhave enough help.
You know you wish you had somestaff, but you can't afford them
.
And you know, look, man, here'smy background, here's what I
(51:40):
can do.
What, what could, what could Ido to help you?
You know, be more effective.
I can teach people, trainpeople, you know whatever.
So I feel like, uh, when, I,when, when my name gets out
there, and maybe what god wantsfor me, he'll show me the right
door, and uh, but I.
(52:01):
But on the other hand, you know,uh, it's hard to adjust to
retirement because it's like for45 years I've been needed by a
lot of people.
Now, some of them.
I didn't want them to feel likethey needed me, you know, but,
and now it's kind of like mywife needs me, but that's about
(52:23):
it and maybe why it needs me,you know but, but you know, it's
like I'm going through that.
I don't want to lose mysignificance of making a
difference here.
You know I don't.
I don't plan to just enjoy theretirement and that's over.
My ministry is over, you know.
I know it's not.
It's just going to be a newseason, but I'm not sure what
(52:45):
it'll look like yet.
I just have various interests.
I love meeting with groups ofmen and just doing a men's group
.
I had a good group in HighlandI met with every Tuesday morning
at 6 am, about the only time wecould get that group together.
They wouldn't come to most ofour other Bible study offerings
but they'd agree to meet in themorning before they go to work.
(53:08):
And so I like that kind ofthing, you know, but I don't
know I do, but I have, you know,one of the first things I look
at when we're visiting churcheswhat's the congregation makeup?
You know, yeah, and it may beone of these churches you know
(53:29):
might need somebody.
They haven't found somebody tospearhead an intentional
reconciliation ministry, youright, so they may be, they may
be needing the right person tocome along.
I may be that person, body, Idon't know, uh, but I'm just
praying that the lord will showme the the right opportunity,
(53:52):
that I can be a help in some wayand I know he will, he will.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
It's kind of open and prayerfully considering you
know God to open the doors forme to see what I can do next.
You know, amen, amen, yeah,pastor, I tell you you're
already off to a great start,because this was a great podcast
, just gleaning from your wisdomand your years of experience
and comparing, comparing notesfrom the from the past to the
present, and, and and I thinkvery much that that that we need
(54:32):
that kind of wisdom in our ears, in this, in this continued
journey and living out thereconciliation we have in Christ
.
Right, I think you're on theright path and I'm sure the Lord
will continue to make it clearas you continue on.
Thank you so much for joiningus on today's podcast.
Speaker 3 (54:52):
Well, thank you for inviting me and thank you for
your friendship for these lastseveral years.
Nettie, thank you, you've meantso much.
We probably never told you howmuch you meant to our Vicksburg
group, but you know you werejust.
Nettie had the best attitude.
He was the perfect person tocome and spearhead that
(55:15):
Vicksburg group.
You know he's just always hadthe great attitude cheerful,
happy, but very serious aboutwhat he was trying to get us to
see the need for in Vicksburg.
So I appreciate you, nettie, forall those times you came and
you were faithful to come andshow up and our folks, the ones
(55:37):
that got to know you in Georgia,had you preach in our church
and everybody loved that.
I mean, both of y'all did agreat job preaching, so that
helped our church have a greaterdesire to more.
You know, like you know, sothat's.
But I think the pastor'smodeling it know and they, when
(56:00):
they would see me having lunchwith Dexter or Reginald in a
restaurant, you know that wasthe MC and hey, he's not just
talking it, he's trying to.
You know they're really friends, they're having lunch, they're
going to stuff like that.
So I think I think that makes adifference.
You just wish you could see alot of the differences being
made quicker.
You know they're in there.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
Thank you man, thank you brother, and thank you guys
those who are listening in forjoining us on this episode of
Living Reconciled.
We would love for you to sharethis episode, but also just
share the podcast.
So feel free to go out to anypodcast app like subscribe, but
also share with your family,friends, church members as we
continue on in this journey ofreconciliation, having the kind
(56:45):
of conversations and dialoguethat helps us move the needle of
reconciliation in our state.
Again, it's been a greatpleasure to be with our guest,
brian Ivey, and my co-host,nettie Winters.
On behalf of those two, this isBrian Crawford signing off
saying God bless, god bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
(57:05):
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
please visit us online atmission Mississippiorg or call
us at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
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