January 6, 2025 • 45 mins
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Join us as Dr. Seth Parry, history professor at Belhaven University, shares his journey from Cleveland, Ohio, to Jackson, Mississippi, exploring how faith, history, and education intersect. From his early life in a predominantly white Methodist congregation to his work promoting diversity and racial reconciliation, Dr. Parry offers insights into fostering unity and embracing God’s creativity through meaningful relationships. Tune in for a heartfelt conversation about building bridges and transforming communities through faith and learning.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode
of Living Reconciled.
My name is Brian Crawford and Ihave the privilege of being
your host on this great podcast.
Unfortunately, my co-hosts andfriends Nettie Winters and
Austin Hoyle aren his time toshare with us.
Dr Perry is a professor ofhistory at Belhaven University,
(00:28):
specializing in European history.
He is a published scholarcontributing to very
distinguished works like Oxfordbibliographies on Italian
humanists and all sorts of fancythings like that.
He's an educator, of course, atBell Haven and passionate about
teaching and engaging studentsin meaningful conversations, and
(00:48):
he loves informing thateducation and his expertise.
With his faith, he has a veryChrist-centered approach to
education and we couldn't bemore delighted to spend a little
time with him.
Dr Perry, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm doing very well.
Brian, thank you for invitingme to this.
I've listened to some of thepodcasts you've recorded in the
past and I'm humbled by all thatthose other brothers and
sisters are doing for you so farand feel a privilege to be able
to be a guest on this show.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Excellent, excellent.
Well, thank you so much againfor the privilege and
opportunity that we have tointerview you.
Before we dive too deeply, Ialways want to give a quick
thanks and shout out to oursponsors, folks like Mississippi
College and Anderson UnitedMethodist Church, grace Temple
Church, mississippi StateUniversity, real Christian
Foundation, nissan, st Dominic'sHospital, atmos Energy Regions
(01:42):
Foundation, brown MissionaryBaptist Church, christian Life
Church, and then our friends MsDoris Powell, robert Ward and
Ann Winters.
Thanks so much for all of oursponsors who make this possible.
It's because of what you dothat we're able to do exactly
what we do, and today what we'redoing is interviewing Dr Seth
Perry.
Dr Perry, if you don't mind,let's start off by just sharing
(02:04):
a little bit about your ownpersonal story of faith, how you
came to faith in the Lord JesusChrist family and your work at
Bell Haven.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Sure, sure.
So I was raised in a Christianhousehold.
My father was a minister of areally small Methodist
congregation up in the suburbsof Cleveland Ohio.
That congregation was small,made up of a bunch of elderly
(02:36):
folks and maybe upper middleaged people, if you want to be
more kind.
My father's kids were reallythe only kids in that
congregation and it was a prettyracially uniform white church
as well.
There were a handful of Chinesepeople that were in that church
that had come here to avoid thepersecution of the church at
(02:58):
that point, but it was apredominantly white church in a
very affluent area of southwestCleveland area, which was an
interesting perspective, becauseI don't know if things have
changed a whole lot, butministers don't always get the
highest pay scales, and so wewere living in this area where
(03:19):
the people who lived therelargely had higher salaries than
my family.
So it was an interestingexperience.
But it was a white area ofCleveland.
I had a close personal friendwho was, I think, the only
Puerto Rican family in the area,and I'm sure he had it a little
bit worse off than most of therest of us because of that being
pretty clearly a minority inthat area.
(03:42):
But I was raised by my father.
I've been a Christian since aslong as I can really remember,
but it was a little odd being inthe kind of congregation that I
grew up in Sure.
So I decided to go to aChristian college, probably
because I wanted to sort of likecommit myself to the Christian
life and see what that was like,see what other Christians like
(04:04):
my age were doing.
And, if I'm being honest, I wasalso going there because I was
interested in finding aChristian spouse.
I dated throughout high school,but I don't think none of those
girls were Christians.
So I kind of wanted to see whatthat experience would be like.
There's a joke, a trope, aboutgirls going to Christian
(04:25):
colleges to get their MRSdegrees and I don't know, but I
have to admit that was kind ofone of the reasons I decided to
go there as well.
It was one of the attractions,if you will, of a Christian
school, and going there was aninteresting experience.
I really enjoyed my years atthat Christian school.
I think anytime you're, for thefirst time, really inundated in
(04:48):
a Christian experience, you getthat mix of sincerity and
hypocrisy in those areas, and soyou had to work your way
through seeing how people livedout of their Christian lives or
didn't, as the case may be, butI don't think that's
particularly unique.
I went there with a particularidea as to what I was going to
do and, after a semester ofchemistry, decided that wasn't
(05:12):
what I was going to do.
I do have a distinct memory ofsitting in my dorm room, and it
must have been the spirit movingin me because I felt this need
that I needed to dedicate myselfto working towards the kingdom
but at the same, time I.
What were you majoring in priorto?
I was pre-med, pre-med.
(05:33):
I was a pre-med major, so thatchemistry class taught me
otherwise.
From pre-med to history is aninteresting leap.
That's a leap of faith.
Yeah, that's what that is.
I had this moment, like I said,where I felt I really wanted to
have some sort of ministrycareer, but I still don't really
feel like I've got thedisposition to be a minister.
(05:55):
I really feel like the call isan important element to that.
If you do something, even ifyou think it's God's will, if
you don't have a call, it's notgoing to be successful.
Do something, even if you thinkit's God's will, if you don't
have a call it's not going to besuccessful.
My father, as I mentioned, was aminister, my uncle's a minister
, my younger brother was aminister, so I felt a little bit
like the black sheep, but Iwanted to dedicate myself to
(06:15):
somehow building up his kingdom,and I knew it should have been
obvious, since I was going to aChristian school.
But it took me about a year andthen I decided, you know, uh,
that I want to pursue Christianhigher education.
I want to, I want to do what Iwas currently experiencing, and
so that sophomore year, um, I, Icommitted myself to a history
major, like you said.
Uh, my grades substantially gotbetter, maybe because I was
(06:39):
following in, uh, the desirethat God had for me.
Um, my, my wife will tell methat she had a prominent role to
play in that as well.
I don't know if there's aconnection, but I started dating
the woman who would become mywife on the last semester of
that freshman year.
My GPA went up from that pointforward, which isn't necessarily
(07:01):
obvious, but she encouraged meto success, so that was good.
It was while I was at thatschool that I also started
attending the local Episcopalchurch, and I really appreciated
the emphasis on liturgy andhistorical connection of the
faith that we saw in that church, so I started attending that
(07:23):
church.
Since then I've moved from theEpiscopal church to the Ang in
that church, so I startedattending that church.
Since then I've moved from theEpiscopal Church to the Anglican
Church, and that's where Ithink you mentioned that in your
intro a few moments ago butthat's where I'm a member today
of the Anglican Church.
So, as I mentioned, I met thewoman that I would marry
freshman year, started datingher at the end of freshman year.
We got married a couple monthsat the end of college.
(07:47):
So I guess that was missionsuccess as far as that goes, and
we've been married for 21 yearsnow going on that.
So she's a native New Yorker.
So in order to teach at thecollege level, you need a
graduate degree.
So I applied to go to schoolsin the New York City area so
that she could go back to beclose to her family, and so
(08:10):
that's why I ended up going toHunter College and the City
University of New York andthat's where I got my graduate
degrees and I worked while I wasteaching there.
I'm sorry, I worked teaching atBrooklyn College while I was
completing my degrees there, andso that was my first experience
sort of teaching and reallyteaching a diverse group of
(08:33):
students.
The students at BrooklynCollege were an interesting mix
of mostly Jewish students andAfrican-American students.
It's right at the intersectionof those two neighborhoods over
there in Brooklyn.
So that was my first realexperience in a much more
diverse setting than I'd hadreally up to that point, even in
(08:56):
the place we lived in New York.
I know the city is diverse as awhole, but neighborhoods
weren't quite so much.
So we moved to an area that was, you know, near her family and
stuff, and we're living in aparticular area while I was
going into Manhattan to take myclasses and to Brooklyn College
to teach those young mindsduring those years.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
That's incredible.
That's incredible.
Tell me a little bit in termsof your journey to Belhaven.
How did you get to Belhaven?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Sure.
Well, I completed my graduatedegree at the City University in
New York and my wife and I ormy wife got pregnant at that
point, and so we decided thatthis would be a good opportunity
for me to rapidly finish up mygraduate studies and actually
(09:46):
start doing what I wasanticipating doing.
So that wasn't exactly thetimeline we had been expecting
up to that point.
The academic hiring season ispretty set in stone.
I was a little concernedbecause it was a little bit past
the normal hiring period, but Iwent and searched for jobs at
(10:06):
various places and I found areally small Christian school
who was hiring a Europeanhistory professor.
One of their professors hadbeen struggling with a health
concern and thought he'd be ableto teach the next year, but it
informed the administration thatreally he didn't feel healthy
(10:26):
enough to teach the next year,which left them in a bit of a
bind, being told so late in theseason that they had a vacancy.
But it worked out perfectly forme, in God's providence and
planning, that he had thatposition open for me.
So I took that job at aChristian school in rural
Georgia right on theGeorgia-South Carolina border.
(10:48):
I had told my wife I'd apply tojobs as far away as South
Carolina.
The fact that this was justacross the border in Georgia, I
guess she saw that was closeenough.
So that was where I got myfirst full-time position.
I worked there for eight and ahalf years, teaching there and
rising, getting promoted acouple of times.
(11:10):
We can talk about myexperiences there in a bit.
But after about eight and ahalf years there I saw this
posting for the position atBelhaven, which is in Jackson,
mississippi, and when I firstsaw it I saw it as a great
opportunity because it lookedlike a school that I could
really enjoy teaching andworking for and I like the fact
(11:31):
that it's in an urban setting.
Now Mississippi I had to behonest, never stepped foot in
Mississippi.
I hadn't even flown overMississippi, to the best of my
knowledge.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Probably never placed urban in any sentence that you
use with Mississippi eitherbefore then.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Probably not.
Yeah, it wasn't, that wasn't myconception, but you know, I
thought my wife, as I said, wasa New Yorker and living in rural
Georgia was a strain on her.
The place we lived had lessthan 2,500 people total in the
community and I mean, I thinkthere are more people than that
on the block where we were inNew York.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
She runs into more people, more people than LA
Subway.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Exactly so.
I'm like you know let's.
I came out here to Mississippiand interviewed for that and
really kind of enjoyed thepeople that I met.
The administration here atBelle Haven thought it was a
real opportunity for us and Ihad cleared this with my wife
ahead of time.
So I don't want to make itsound like I was doing that, but
you know we had a conversationsaying you know, on the one hand
(12:43):
it is a lot farther from familythan anywhere we've been up to
this point, but on the otherhand there's more people there,
it's a bit more urban, there'smore than two restaurants.
So I think that was one of thethings that was a selling point
for her.
She really enjoys being aroundmore people and the
opportunities for our kids.
(13:04):
I think we're much greater herein Mississippi than they were in
rural Georgia.
I think this actually connectsup perhaps with one of the
things we talk about here, youguys at Mission Mississippi
because when we were in ruralGeorgia the place we're living
was incredibly segregated.
(13:27):
That town, I mean you couldtell you, crossed the railroad
tracks and that was theAfrican-American side of town
and the other side, the southside of the railroad tracks.
I mean I thought that was ametaphor.
But you came over there and youwere on the white side of town.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
We're talking post-2000s at this point and
still seeing, you know, thatkind of incredible geographic
segregation.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah, and it wasn't just.
It wasn't just geographic.
I mean, I know I can be naivebecause, as I said, I spent my
life at this point in Ohio andNew York.
I've got family in Pennsylvania, so that's really my
experiences.
And I have this distinct memoryI was driving with one of my
colleagues who actually she'salso from Ohio but had moved
(14:12):
down to Georgia and married atGeorge, and so she, I think,
knew the culture better than Ihad and I made just some
offhanded comment about I'msurprised that a town this
relatively small has the need tohave two of this and two of
that.
We were talking about funeralhomes.
I said I mean, how many peopleare dying in this town that you
need to have two funeral homes?
(14:33):
And she just looks at me andsays, well, you know, seth,
that's the black funeral homeand that's the.
I was like and I realize I'mbeing kind of naive with saying
that but I never even crossed mymind, I mean, and so that was
kind of an eye-openingexperience, and I'm not trying
to cast aspersions on the people, there are plenty of people who
(14:54):
weren't seeing race in that waybut it was an interesting
experience living there.
When we came to Mississippi.
My wife and I made the decisionwe could have moved to a couple
areas around town.
We decided we wanted to sort ofpurposely move into one of the
communities that was a bit moreracially mixed, integrated, and
(15:17):
so we moved into an area thathad a much more even balance of
white African-American familiesI wanted my kids to experience I
didn't want them just to havethat experience that it had in
Georgia up to that point, and sofar I think that's been a
pretty successful experience.
(15:38):
I hope so.
I think so.
One of the things that reallymakes my heart, heart, uh, happy
a little bit.
Um, I realized that the term andthe phrase colorblind has some
negative associations and I'mnot trying to defend that term,
uh, specifically, but two of mykids I've had conversations with
about a friend of theirs or akid they're playing with or
(16:00):
talking with or competingagainst in a spelling bee or
something.
We were talking about him andlater on we'd be driving down
the street like oh, hey, that'sso-and-so and it's a black child
.
And at no point in ourconversation have they felt the
need to distinguish betweenthat's who it was.
And I guarantee you mygeneration, if you were saying,
hey, who are you talking to Justthe first go-to, as I would
(16:30):
identify who the person was byyou know, by the color of their
skin, and I I do appreciate thefact that my kids that's not
their first, you know identifiernecessarily when you're talking
about the people that they'reinteracting with.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, no, that's good and I appreciate you both, uh,
having kind of speaking to thatthe sensitive, sensitive nature
of the term because, you know,colorblind can't, can't, like
you said, it can be somenegative associations with it.
But I think ultimately, reallywhat it comes down to is that
the ability to see beyond it.
(16:54):
You know, it's not that you'reseeing faster or even ignoring
it, but it's the ability to seemore than that right, and
understand that there are somany different identities.
Even in the class, for example,seth, that we have at Bell
Haven.
We talk a lot about this, wetalk about overarching
identities, and the reality isthat you know, I'm a Black man,
(17:15):
you're a white man, but that isonly one element of our
overarching identity.
There are so many other piecesand parts that make us who we
are fathers, sons, brothers, youknow, sons of ministers and
churchgoers and history majors,and you know there's all sorts
of other pieces that make us whowe are, and learning how to
(17:36):
uncover some of those, youactually realize how much more
you have in common versus,versus what you have, what you
do not have in common, and so,yeah, I got great appreciation
for also your, your commitmentto diversify your, your, your
living experience with your,with your children, because of
course, we know that there'sthere's all sorts of studies
(17:57):
that show us that we're sharperwhen we have experiences that
are that are different than oursas normative for us, and so
we're sharper intellectuallybecause we're not in those silos
that cause us to just be aroundpeople that look like us, think
like us, act and talk and votelike us, and so we're sharper
(18:18):
intellectually, but we're alsosharper in terms of our empathy,
in terms of our understandingof different experiences, and so
I appreciate that an incredibleamount.
And speaking of which itactually leads me to Belhaven,
because Belhaven is kind ofnestled in one of these very
diverse areas in the city ofJackson where you have this kind
(18:39):
of diversity of both class,diversity of both ethnicity and
culture.
This, this, the kind ofBelhaven district, is just this
really really interesting fusionof all of these different
things that are happening, youknow, culinary and food and just
a lot of different things,really interesting things going
(19:00):
on, including on the campusitself, including on the campus
itself, and so could you kind oftalk a little bit about how the
campus was at your arrival,versus the campus life today, in
the context of diversity, inthe context of culture, class,
ethnicity.
Could you talk a little bitabout that and some of the
lessons that you guys havelearned as that shift has been
(19:23):
happening?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Sure, yeah Well, I'll address some of the components
of that question.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
If there's any that I leave out, just remind me.
It's just a conversation, so wecan just keep going.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, we got it.
As I said, one of the things Ihave to admit, so I need to
confess some of my own sins here.
On occasion, when I first gothere, one of the things I was
concerned about and one of mycolleagues, the American
historian across the hall here,he's from Michigan, and so the
one thing that I was a littleworried about when I first got
(19:59):
here was I'm kind of making thisterm up, but this sort of like
carpetbagger mentality.
You know in American historyAfter the Civil War, those
northern people who would comedown to the south and try to
take over the south and runthings down here.
And I didn't want to be One ofthese two White northerners
Coming down to the south andsaying, okay, you guys have been
(20:21):
doing it wrong, we're going toteach you.
We're going to fix it for you.
Now, having said that, the moreI think about it, I really
think that was probably anexcuse I was making for myself,
to excuse myself from not havingto address some of those things
.
So I hope I'm starting to cometo get past that a little bit,
(20:47):
because I am trying to becomemore engaged in these issues of
race and racial reconciliation.
I mean, you know, I didn't,none of us choose the time and
place that God puts us in.
So what we do is we take theopportunities that God gives us
and we go with it in just tryingto be as sensitive to, you know
, our neighbors as he as as hepossibly can.
(21:08):
So, uh, with that sort of as um, as a background to what we
were saying here, um, one of thefirst things that um, when we
started talking about theseissues, I wanted to do um which,
uh, I know Nettie and Austinhave been involved with from the
beginning was having a specificclass that would be open to
(21:30):
incorporating some of theseideas in a Christian setting.
I was made the Dean ofHumanities and Ministry a couple
of years ago and I've beentrying to sort of incorporate
that into all the academic areasin this school.
You know, maybe not all at once, but sort of easing some of
these ideas into this.
(21:52):
And so just to sort of expressthat, at the outset we it was
back in 2019, I guess that webegan to offer this class called
Studies it's very genericallytitled class um called studies.
It's very generically titled,uh, on purpose, to allow the
instructors to just take it andrun with it.
Um, studies in african-americanhistory and culture.
And, uh, I, I, I don't believeyou were involved in the course
(22:15):
at the first time.
We offered it.
But, um, that class, um, westarted it in 2019.
Um, and we had a.
We had a fellow who was gonna beteaching that class and he got
maybe three weeks into it and,uh, he suffered a bit of a
health scare and a healthconcern and so he wasn't able to
complete that class and, um, Imean, that was not his fault in
(22:38):
any way.
But we're sort of thinking, ohman, I don't know if this is an
attack, because we're trying toreach out and now this fellow is
getting struck down.
I'm thinking in the back of myhead we don't want to end the
class halfway through and of allthe classes, we don't want to
end halfway.
We don't want to end this.
So I had a conversation withthe provost about how can we get
(23:04):
this class to keep going, eventhough we just you know, are
running in these difficulties.
And he said he you know, wetalk about, we think about it.
And he came back to me just acouple days later with this
fantastic idea and a fantasticname um, and the name is meddy
winters I'm pretty certain thatthe provost at the time was Dr
Brad Smith.
(23:25):
Yes, and so he's a friend ofMission Mississippi, but I'm
pretty sure.
Incredible friend.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it'sactually our mutual friend, his
mutual friend and yours, drDolphus Weary, who is a board of
(23:46):
trustees members here atBellhaven, that I'm sure you
know.
Brad reached out and said helpand Dr Weary said hey, you know,
I got just the person who canyou know solve your problem.
So I met with Nettie and I metwith Dr Felicia Bowens.
That day I was sitting acrossthe desk from them and saying,
hey, you guys are my substituteteachers.
I don't, I don't know you yet,but I've heard great things, I'm
(24:08):
sure you can do this.
And um, we, we sort of hashedout how we were going to finish
that class and I kid you, notthe next week COVID hit and we
went remote.
So, wow, I mean, everyuniversity across this country
was trying to figure out.
We had just reached out andfound these instructors, the
(24:32):
Mission Mississippi folks, whowere going to be helping us out
with that, and they had toscramble and figure it out.
I don't know the balance ofwork that was done, but they
figured that class out, theytaught that class out, and I
don't know how they got it towork.
And I don't really rememberwhether Austin was involved in
the class in that iteration,whether he came on not at that
iteration.
Yeah, I think it was the nexttime around that I did it.
(24:55):
But, um, I mean, that class wasthat class was a hit.
Students um, really enjoyed iton I.
I met with a bunch of themafterwards just saying, hey, you
know, guys, I'm sorry about thedifficulties we've run into
here.
Um, we made this commitment tooffer this class to you guys
wanting to be a good experience.
You can do it and they, youknow they they seem to
appreciate you know we did whatwe could to keep the class going
(25:15):
and that they liked thedifference in personalities that
was offered in those in thoseclasses.
And and that just began coupleof times here we've expanded it
to include a more substantialportion of our Mission
(25:39):
Mississippi family.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I know you're involved in that class and
Austin is involved in that classon occasion, it's so fun, man,
dr Perry, it's so fun justsitting in there, if nothing
else, just sitting in and justlistening to the students as
light bulbs come on aboutAfrican-American history and
stories and the journey oftheology, and it's just fun
(26:05):
listening and watching andobserving light bulbs come on.
So we're incredibly gratefulthat we get a chance to
participate as an organizationand incredibly grateful, of
course, like I mentioned, wouldhave loved to have Nettie on
this podcast today, but he'sincredibly grateful that we've
been extended the opportunity toparticipate in it.
So it was an incrediblecommitment from you to make it
(26:29):
happen but, man, we couldn't bemore thankful.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, I mean Nettie's not on here, so you, I'm not
sucking up to him, but he is oneof the more, you know,
charismatic people I've everencountered.
I mean, you, it's hard to spendtime uh with him and not leave
that experience with your heartbuoyed um a little bit about the
future, uh, for us.
And so I mean I know you guysare doing some great
(26:53):
instructional things in thatclass, but, uh, you know, I joke
with people that if all they dois sit there and just listen uh
to you guys and Nettie, youknow, show uh Christian love to
each other, um, and thosestudents, I mean that that's an
experience that they're going toremember and take away with
them, uh, and that that's asuccessful class.
That's a successful experiencefrom my perspective.
(27:14):
It's kind of funny.
Whenever I talk about this classI'll go out to a couple
professors' occasion and say,hey, you know, if you know
anybody that needs a class, thisis a great opportunity from
them.
And I'd say about half the timethe person I go to says, oh man
, I wish I could sit in theirclass.
I know I've met Nettie a coupleof times, or I've met Austin or
whoever it may be, and theyknow, just from reputation, what
(27:36):
you guys do, so that'ssomething I hear pretty
frequently, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
That's awesome.
Tell me, if you could wave amagic wand, what's one thing
you'd love to see Belle Havenkeep building on as it relates
to building this beautifulcommunity, diverse community,
people from different walks oflife and all having this sense
(28:02):
of belonging.
If you could wave a magic wand,what would be the one thing you
would love to see Bell Haven domore of in order to continue to
cultivate and fortify this kindof community?
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Sure, I mean, I think this is just natural to a
university or a community, butwe're frequently siloed off into
our majors, our areas, whatwe're focused on doing, whether
they want us to do a jobpreparation program or a greater
learning experience.
So you know, this is not justtooting your guy's horn, but I
(28:35):
think that a whole variety ofmajors and programs could really
benefit from the kind of things.
Take that class are doing itbecause they know who you guys
(28:55):
are and they want to learn fromyou guys.
Occasionally there might be astudent there who just needs an
extra three credits for this orthree credits for that.
A lot of our programs are sopacked out with material that
some of those students couldn'tdo that.
I really think that, really, anymajor, think about any career
that you're going to be enteringinto Um, and, frankly, as we
(29:18):
talk about as a liberal artscollege, it's not just the
career you start.
You're going to be moving fromcareer to career.
You're going to have differentbosses, you're going to have
different workspaces, you'regoing to have different
colleagues.
All they're going to bedifferent.
Um, it may be that they are allof the same ethnicity, but
chances are, chances are not.
I think all of us are going tohave working with people of all
(29:40):
shapes, sizes and varieties, andso you know, to be honest, I
don't see why a business programshouldn't have even if it's not
a course some sort of module orprogram that says, hey man,
these are the kinds of thingsthat you are going to encounter
in the workplace, and it mightbe a racial issue, it might be a
gender issue, it might be areligion issue, but these are
(30:01):
the kinds of strategies that wecan pursue.
You know, sort of talk our waythrough it.
I mean, I think that's one ofthe fundamental things right of
Mission Mississippi, that it'shaving conversations and
building relationships withpeople who we right now don't
see eye to eye with.
And you know what?
We may not see eye to eye evenat the end of this conversation,
but at least we can communicatewith each other and that's a
(30:23):
skill I mean you need that inevery business or workplace
you're going to be.
You're going to need that inevery education space you're
going to be in.
And I was thinking before wegot on this call you know we've
got a big nursing program here,and I mean nurses.
They serve people across theracial divide, and so I would
(30:43):
hope that most of our nurses arepretty open to that experience.
But you know what having sometraining and encountering both
patients, but also, you know,the families of patients and the
bedside manner to approach indifferent circumstances.
So, even if it's not a course,I can see some sort of training
module or even as a weekendexperience of some sort.
(31:05):
I think that'd be somethingthat we could incorporate across
, you know, across the campus.
I happen to look at the Belhavenmission statement, you know,
because we always try to tiethings into our mission, and
Belhaven's mission is to preparestudents to serve Christ Jesus
in their careers, relationshipsand ideas, and like what we're
talking about, we're talkingabout relationship building.
(31:26):
All of our relationships aren'tgoing to be with people who
look and smell like us, sothat's something we need to do.
And ideas, too, I mean we cansmile and smell like us, so
that's something, that'ssomething we need to.
And ideas, too, I mean we can,we can smile and pretend like
we're getting along, but if ourideas are blocking us, that's
not good.
We need to get past that.
We need to, we need tounderstand these things.
So and I mean careers, I think,also goes, I think all three of
those components really fit inhere.
(31:48):
So I think that would be saying, if I had my magic wand, I
would.
I would really enjoy seeingthat happen.
And it's not that we have aroadblock to doing that, I think
it's just the mentality that wehave.
And it's pretty common inhigher ed that we've got our
certain classes and we've got itset up here and we don't have a
whole lot of space for otherthings.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So we need to have.
It's incredible that you'rementioning it, dr Perry, because
we've had Dr John Anderson,who's the dean of the School of
Law at Mississippi College, on.
He's an incredible friend ofMission Mississippi as well.
But one of the things that weincorporated in the School of
Law, the 1L and the 2L students.
(32:27):
They each get a 90-minute totwo-hour seminar, if you will,
that we call Cultivating HealthyRelationships Across Dividing
Lines.
They get a part one and a parttwo.
The 1L gets to part one where wecover the first two paradigm
shifts, which is moving fromhearing, the listening and
moving from arrogance tohumility.
(32:49):
And then the second yearstudents get the next two
paradigm shifts, which is movingfrom apathy to empathy and
moving from moral force to moralpersuasion, where your
conversations around morality ismore, is more of a dialogue
versus a silencing of voices, apushing and shoving for for the
(33:11):
moral opinions of the day, forthe moral opinions of the day.
And so it's very much in linewith that intent that you, that
you were articulating, which isthis desire to give this kind of
skill set what we call, or whatI like to call, relational
fluency, this relationalcapacity and fluency, the
ability to navigate through,getting along with people of all
(33:32):
different backgrounds, shapes,sizes, experiences, cultures,
and so it's very much, like yousaid, a need for all walks of
life, not just your theologymajors, sociology majors,
history majors, but people fromall backgrounds need this kind
of exposure and need need thiskind of training.
It's almost like a lost art, soto speak, in our cultural
(33:56):
moment, and so, yeah, Iappreciate you even articulating
that and sharing that.
It just reaffirms that we're inthe right space, doing the
right thing.
To hear you say that, if Icould wave a magic wand, that's
what I would do.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, aptitude, empathy.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
You don't have to wave a magic wand.
So let me ask you this Againgetting back to your history
roots you've obviously seen oryou've read and you've studied a
(34:31):
lot to just share.
Are there lessons from history,as you read and as you study,
that can help us navigate andeven figure out some of today's
challenges that we experience?
Of course, I know the Americanstory is a little different from
the European story and theAmerican history is a little bit
(34:51):
different from European history, but at the same time, European
history, I'm sure there arestories of conflict.
I'm sure there are stories inwhich people pursued healing
through conflict or healing overthat conflict.
So are there any lessons thatwe can take from history that
would speak to our currentmoments and maybe even offer
(35:13):
some hope as it relates to ourcurrent moments?
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, I'll see what I can do about that.
I like to try to connect myunderstanding of history with my
Christian faith right, so I tryto figure out how I can do a
theology of history and when Iwas thinking about some of these
(35:42):
concepts about racialreconciliation, what we can do,
working for this, is that, youknow, historians really engage
with the past, engage withforeign countries and we learn
about all the manifold anddifferent ways that God
expresses his creativity throughall the events of the past.
And I think one of the waysthat God shows his creativity in
(36:08):
his workings through the pastis that it was his choice to
make us a diverse group ofpeople.
I mean, god could have made usall looking identical, he could
have made us looking all thesame, but it's an expression of
his will for us to be a diversepeople.
I think it's an expression ofGod's image in us in diversity,
(36:34):
of God's image in us indiversity.
God cannot be expressed in justone white guy, one black guy,
you know, whatever it may be.
And so I think that sometimeswe tend to make God into our
image rather than seeing that weare made in God's image.
Right, we tend to think of Godas being kind of like us.
(36:56):
So I think that the study ofhistory one of the things it can
do is it can really displaceour assumptions about what
reality is by showing us justhow, you know, odd and
unsettling our currentcircumstances are that we are
just, you know, one moment inthis timeline continuing.
(37:18):
I think that understanding thepast and understanding all the
ways that God has worked hiswill through events and
experiences, hopefully will giveus a wider expression of how
he's trying to carry out hiswill through his people.
As I said, I think of the mosaicof humanity, so the range of
(37:41):
different people that God made.
That's how God representshimself to us.
Now, I know I don't want towalk in any heresy, I know that
Jesus was born in his humannature, he had ethnicity as a
human person, but that's not,you know, that's not what I'm
talking about, god in general,that his image is our multiple
racial identities.
(38:02):
I was thinking about thisphrase and I think that in order
to really understand God, weneed to understand the diversity
of humanity.
Why did he choose to um, whydid he choose this, this path?
And well, I don't think we canever really, you know, fully
understand God this side, uh,you know this side, this side of
(38:22):
heaven.
I think that understand that hewants us to um, have all of
these different appointments.
I think the same thing isprobably the case, um, with all
the um, multiple, themultiplication of denominations.
Sometimes I think that onedenomination will focus on this
aspect of God.
I think, like a diamond, rightOne facet.
This reveals this element toGod.
(38:43):
This facet reveals anotherelement to God.
I think the same thing is thecase with cultures.
So I think that deeply studyingEuropean history, south
American history, africanhistory, whatever it may be,
that reveals something about theway that God works his way
through people.
It's not going to be the samestory how God wants us to act
(39:11):
towards building up hismulti-dimensional no-transcript,
man.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
that's a great way to tackle it.
So thank you for taking areally, really healthy stab.
I appreciate it, man.
It was well worth it and thisinterview has been well worth it
.
So thank you for just your timeand helping us navigate
reconciliation from a universityperspective, which has been
really, really intriguing andreally, really interesting.
If you could give one piece ofadvice to anyone, whether it be
(39:47):
a student, parent, communityleader, on how to build bridges
and foster unity, just from yourvantage point, what would it be
?
What would be that one piece ofadvice?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, I mean, I guess my best piece of advice would
be just to get started oneperson at a time.
I guess my best advice would bejust to get started one person
at a time.
I mentioned earlier on thisconversation.
You know I had excuses formyself for why my voice might
not be heard, because I had thisself-perceived outsider status.
But you know what?
(40:20):
You can't let that hold youback.
So, even though I like grandinitiatives, it really starts
one person at a time right.
So you reach out to one person,you form that bond, you form
that relationship, you learnabout that person, you learn
about all the ways that they aresimilar to you and different
than you.
The one thing I failed tomention in my earlier comment I
(40:44):
talked about all this diversity,but, man, I can't believe I
forgot to mention unity.
Earlier comment, I talked aboutall this diversity, but, man, I
can't believe I forgot tomention unity.
We need to celebrate diversity.
We need to celebrate unity too.
You and I are brothers inChrist.
We have that in common, and sowhile in my classes and in the
lessons that we do, we talkabout all the variety of things
that God has done and thatpeople have done.
(41:05):
We also worship the same God,right, we have the same Savior,
and so that common tie, that'sone of the ways that I feel
confident, you know, reachingout to my brothers and sisters,
regardless of you know wherethey're coming from or where
they go, we have that in commonand so, even if I can't think of
any other way to start aconversation with somebody,
(41:29):
that's a place to get started,particularly in the South, where
we've got, if nothing else,we've got, cultural Christianity
right, and so that's a placewhere we can get started.
Most people, at least in thespheres that I circulate in,
most people at least, want toadmit to not going to church.
So that's at least a place youcan start by saying, hey, you
know, let's see where that is.
(41:50):
And you know it stacks up, youknow, like Lego blocks or like
Jenga pieces.
I think that that would bewhere it was.
Don't let the you know, whenyou hear about problems, you
might be overwhelmed and youmight let it get you down
because you're not going to beable to tackle it.
I mean, I can't tackle it.
You can't tackle it.
We talked about Nettie'ssuperhero status.
(42:11):
He can't tackle it.
You got to do it one piece at atime and then you build up sort
of a web of relationships andcommunity and then the two of
you can work together and, asscripture says right, the two
people working together is a tiethat can't be unbound.
So that would be my adviceDon't let the enormity or the
(42:32):
perceived enormity of the taskreally discourage you from
moving forward, but take it onestep at a time and work towards
building that one solidrelationship, having a good
relationship, a solidrelationship, rather than just
sort of tepid or inch-deeprelationships with a bunch of
people, I think, and that canreally be a foundation to build
(42:53):
this movement at Tapa.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yeah, that's a great way to close out our time, doc,
and I appreciate again your timeand your counsel, your advice
and the work that you're doingfor the community of Jackson,
but ultimately the state ofMississippi, belle Haven
University.
Is there any way that peoplecan keep up with Dr Perry, any
things that you're doing inwhich you want to inform people
(43:17):
in terms of social media work,or do you want to just point
them to Belle Haven Universityand encourage them to send their
kids there?
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yeah, there you go.
I've got my page on bellhavenuniversity, but, my goodness, I
do not have a single a socialmedia site.
I am uh, uh, I'm an historian,so I like old things, so
sometimes I feel like I'mactually really old-fashioned.
I have never got involved inthat and uh, uh, maybe that's
for good or for ill.
But yeah, if you, if you needto reach out, my email address
(43:44):
is there on bellhaven, uh, I'dlove to talk to any of you,
would like to have a deeperconversation with any things
that I've talked about here, butthat that is the best place.
Yeah, definitely, I mean you,you heard you, you come to
belhaven, you can, you can hearthis kind of stuff and you can
take a class taught by missionmississippi where else?
That's great.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
So absolutely that.
That right there is a greatplug.
And so, and why is that theleast surprising thing of the
day to hear that the historianhas no social media pages?
Speaker 2 (44:13):
I had a Twitter, but it was still Twitter when I was
on it, so that tells you howlong ago it's been since I
posted on that.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Yeah, dr Perry.
Thank you so much again forjoining us.
Dr Perry, thank you so muchagain for joining us and for
anybody that is listening.
Please feel free to continue tosubscribe, or feel free to
subscribe to Living Reconciledpodcast.
You can do that by going to anypodcast app and searching for
Living Reconciled Mission,mississippi, and that should get
you in contact with us.
Feel free also to share thisepisode, but also the podcast,
(44:44):
with friends and family members,and feel free to like this
episode when you like it.
It actually generates moretraffic towards this podcast and
we would love for you to beable to do that On behalf of my
good friends and their apps.
That he winners in Austin Hoyleand my guest and friend, dr
Seth Perry my name is BrianCrawford signing off saying God
(45:07):
bless.
Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode
of Living Reconciled.
My name is Brian Crawford and Ihave the privilege of being
your host on this great podcast.
Unfortunately, my co-hosts andfriends Nettie Winters and
Austin Hoyle aren his time toshare with us.
Dr Perry is a professor ofhistory at Belhaven University,
(00:28):
specializing in European history.
He is a published scholarcontributing to very
distinguished works like Oxfordbibliographies on Italian
humanists and all sorts of fancythings like that.
He's an educator, of course, atBell Haven and passionate about
teaching and engaging studentsin meaningful conversations, and
(00:48):
he loves informing thateducation and his expertise.
With his faith, he has a veryChrist-centered approach to
education and we couldn't bemore delighted to spend a little
time with him.
Dr Perry, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm doing very well.
Brian, thank you for invitingme to this.
I've listened to some of thepodcasts you've recorded in the
past and I'm humbled by all thatthose other brothers and
sisters are doing for you so farand feel a privilege to be able
to be a guest on this show.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Excellent, excellent.
Well, thank you so much againfor the privilege and
opportunity that we have tointerview you.
Before we dive too deeply, Ialways want to give a quick
thanks and shout out to oursponsors, folks like Mississippi
College and Anderson UnitedMethodist Church, grace Temple
Church, mississippi StateUniversity, real Christian
Foundation, nissan, st Dominic'sHospital, atmos Energy Regions
(01:42):
Foundation, brown MissionaryBaptist Church, christian Life
Church, and then our friends MsDoris Powell, robert Ward and
Ann Winters.
Thanks so much for all of oursponsors who make this possible.
It's because of what you dothat we're able to do exactly
what we do, and today what we'redoing is interviewing Dr Seth
Perry.
Dr Perry, if you don't mind,let's start off by just sharing
(02:04):
a little bit about your ownpersonal story of faith, how you
came to faith in the Lord JesusChrist family and your work at
Bell Haven.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Sure, sure.
So I was raised in a Christianhousehold.
My father was a minister of areally small Methodist
congregation up in the suburbsof Cleveland Ohio.
That congregation was small,made up of a bunch of elderly
(02:36):
folks and maybe upper middleaged people, if you want to be
more kind.
My father's kids were reallythe only kids in that
congregation and it was a prettyracially uniform white church
as well.
There were a handful of Chinesepeople that were in that church
that had come here to avoid thepersecution of the church at
(02:58):
that point, but it was apredominantly white church in a
very affluent area of southwestCleveland area, which was an
interesting perspective, becauseI don't know if things have
changed a whole lot, butministers don't always get the
highest pay scales, and so wewere living in this area where
(03:19):
the people who lived therelargely had higher salaries than
my family.
So it was an interestingexperience.
But it was a white area ofCleveland.
I had a close personal friendwho was, I think, the only
Puerto Rican family in the area,and I'm sure he had it a little
bit worse off than most of therest of us because of that being
pretty clearly a minority inthat area.
(03:42):
But I was raised by my father.
I've been a Christian since aslong as I can really remember,
but it was a little odd being inthe kind of congregation that I
grew up in Sure.
So I decided to go to aChristian college, probably
because I wanted to sort of likecommit myself to the Christian
life and see what that was like,see what other Christians like
(04:04):
my age were doing.
And, if I'm being honest, I wasalso going there because I was
interested in finding aChristian spouse.
I dated throughout high school,but I don't think none of those
girls were Christians.
So I kind of wanted to see whatthat experience would be like.
There's a joke, a trope, aboutgirls going to Christian
(04:25):
colleges to get their MRSdegrees and I don't know, but I
have to admit that was kind ofone of the reasons I decided to
go there as well.
It was one of the attractions,if you will, of a Christian
school, and going there was aninteresting experience.
I really enjoyed my years atthat Christian school.
I think anytime you're, for thefirst time, really inundated in
(04:48):
a Christian experience, you getthat mix of sincerity and
hypocrisy in those areas, and soyou had to work your way
through seeing how people livedout of their Christian lives or
didn't, as the case may be, butI don't think that's
particularly unique.
I went there with a particularidea as to what I was going to
do and, after a semester ofchemistry, decided that wasn't
(05:12):
what I was going to do.
I do have a distinct memory ofsitting in my dorm room, and it
must have been the spirit movingin me because I felt this need
that I needed to dedicate myselfto working towards the kingdom
but at the same, time I.
What were you majoring in priorto?
I was pre-med, pre-med.
(05:33):
I was a pre-med major, so thatchemistry class taught me
otherwise.
From pre-med to history is aninteresting leap.
That's a leap of faith.
Yeah, that's what that is.
I had this moment, like I said,where I felt I really wanted to
have some sort of ministrycareer, but I still don't really
feel like I've got thedisposition to be a minister.
(05:55):
I really feel like the call isan important element to that.
If you do something, even ifyou think it's God's will, if
you don't have a call, it's notgoing to be successful.
Do something, even if you thinkit's God's will, if you don't
have a call it's not going to besuccessful.
My father, as I mentioned, was aminister, my uncle's a minister
, my younger brother was aminister, so I felt a little bit
like the black sheep, but Iwanted to dedicate myself to
(06:15):
somehow building up his kingdom,and I knew it should have been
obvious, since I was going to aChristian school.
But it took me about a year andthen I decided, you know, uh,
that I want to pursue Christianhigher education.
I want to, I want to do what Iwas currently experiencing, and
so that sophomore year, um, I, Icommitted myself to a history
major, like you said.
Uh, my grades substantially gotbetter, maybe because I was
(06:39):
following in, uh, the desirethat God had for me.
Um, my, my wife will tell methat she had a prominent role to
play in that as well.
I don't know if there's aconnection, but I started dating
the woman who would become mywife on the last semester of
that freshman year.
My GPA went up from that pointforward, which isn't necessarily
(07:01):
obvious, but she encouraged meto success, so that was good.
It was while I was at thatschool that I also started
attending the local Episcopalchurch, and I really appreciated
the emphasis on liturgy andhistorical connection of the
faith that we saw in that church, so I started attending that
(07:23):
church.
Since then I've moved from theEpiscopal church to the Ang in
that church, so I startedattending that church.
Since then I've moved from theEpiscopal Church to the Anglican
Church, and that's where Ithink you mentioned that in your
intro a few moments ago butthat's where I'm a member today
of the Anglican Church.
So, as I mentioned, I met thewoman that I would marry
freshman year, started datingher at the end of freshman year.
We got married a couple monthsat the end of college.
(07:47):
So I guess that was missionsuccess as far as that goes, and
we've been married for 21 yearsnow going on that.
So she's a native New Yorker.
So in order to teach at thecollege level, you need a
graduate degree.
So I applied to go to schoolsin the New York City area so
that she could go back to beclose to her family, and so
(08:10):
that's why I ended up going toHunter College and the City
University of New York andthat's where I got my graduate
degrees and I worked while I wasteaching there.
I'm sorry, I worked teaching atBrooklyn College while I was
completing my degrees there, andso that was my first experience
sort of teaching and reallyteaching a diverse group of
(08:33):
students.
The students at BrooklynCollege were an interesting mix
of mostly Jewish students andAfrican-American students.
It's right at the intersectionof those two neighborhoods over
there in Brooklyn.
So that was my first realexperience in a much more
diverse setting than I'd hadreally up to that point, even in
(08:56):
the place we lived in New York.
I know the city is diverse as awhole, but neighborhoods
weren't quite so much.
So we moved to an area that was, you know, near her family and
stuff, and we're living in aparticular area while I was
going into Manhattan to take myclasses and to Brooklyn College
to teach those young mindsduring those years.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
That's incredible.
That's incredible.
Tell me a little bit in termsof your journey to Belhaven.
How did you get to Belhaven?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Sure.
Well, I completed my graduatedegree at the City University in
New York and my wife and I ormy wife got pregnant at that
point, and so we decided thatthis would be a good opportunity
for me to rapidly finish up mygraduate studies and actually
(09:46):
start doing what I wasanticipating doing.
So that wasn't exactly thetimeline we had been expecting
up to that point.
The academic hiring season ispretty set in stone.
I was a little concernedbecause it was a little bit past
the normal hiring period, but Iwent and searched for jobs at
(10:06):
various places and I found areally small Christian school
who was hiring a Europeanhistory professor.
One of their professors hadbeen struggling with a health
concern and thought he'd be ableto teach the next year, but it
informed the administration thatreally he didn't feel healthy
(10:26):
enough to teach the next year,which left them in a bit of a
bind, being told so late in theseason that they had a vacancy.
But it worked out perfectly forme, in God's providence and
planning, that he had thatposition open for me.
So I took that job at aChristian school in rural
Georgia right on theGeorgia-South Carolina border.
(10:48):
I had told my wife I'd apply tojobs as far away as South
Carolina.
The fact that this was justacross the border in Georgia, I
guess she saw that was closeenough.
So that was where I got myfirst full-time position.
I worked there for eight and ahalf years, teaching there and
rising, getting promoted acouple of times.
(11:10):
We can talk about myexperiences there in a bit.
But after about eight and ahalf years there I saw this
posting for the position atBelhaven, which is in Jackson,
mississippi, and when I firstsaw it I saw it as a great
opportunity because it lookedlike a school that I could
really enjoy teaching andworking for and I like the fact
(11:31):
that it's in an urban setting.
Now Mississippi I had to behonest, never stepped foot in
Mississippi.
I hadn't even flown overMississippi, to the best of my
knowledge.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Probably never placed urban in any sentence that you
use with Mississippi eitherbefore then.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Probably not.
Yeah, it wasn't, that wasn't myconception, but you know, I
thought my wife, as I said, wasa New Yorker and living in rural
Georgia was a strain on her.
The place we lived had lessthan 2,500 people total in the
community and I mean, I thinkthere are more people than that
on the block where we were inNew York.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
She runs into more people, more people than LA
Subway.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Exactly so.
I'm like you know let's.
I came out here to Mississippiand interviewed for that and
really kind of enjoyed thepeople that I met.
The administration here atBelle Haven thought it was a
real opportunity for us and Ihad cleared this with my wife
ahead of time.
So I don't want to make itsound like I was doing that, but
you know we had a conversationsaying you know, on the one hand
(12:43):
it is a lot farther from familythan anywhere we've been up to
this point, but on the otherhand there's more people there,
it's a bit more urban, there'smore than two restaurants.
So I think that was one of thethings that was a selling point
for her.
She really enjoys being aroundmore people and the
opportunities for our kids.
(13:04):
I think we're much greater herein Mississippi than they were in
rural Georgia.
I think this actually connectsup perhaps with one of the
things we talk about here, youguys at Mission Mississippi
because when we were in ruralGeorgia the place we're living
was incredibly segregated.
(13:27):
That town, I mean you couldtell you, crossed the railroad
tracks and that was theAfrican-American side of town
and the other side, the southside of the railroad tracks.
I mean I thought that was ametaphor.
But you came over there and youwere on the white side of town.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
We're talking post-2000s at this point and
still seeing, you know, thatkind of incredible geographic
segregation.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah, and it wasn't just.
It wasn't just geographic.
I mean, I know I can be naivebecause, as I said, I spent my
life at this point in Ohio andNew York.
I've got family in Pennsylvania, so that's really my
experiences.
And I have this distinct memoryI was driving with one of my
colleagues who actually she'salso from Ohio but had moved
(14:12):
down to Georgia and married atGeorge, and so she, I think,
knew the culture better than Ihad and I made just some
offhanded comment about I'msurprised that a town this
relatively small has the need tohave two of this and two of
that.
We were talking about funeralhomes.
I said I mean, how many peopleare dying in this town that you
need to have two funeral homes?
(14:33):
And she just looks at me andsays, well, you know, seth,
that's the black funeral homeand that's the.
I was like and I realize I'mbeing kind of naive with saying
that but I never even crossed mymind, I mean, and so that was
kind of an eye-openingexperience, and I'm not trying
to cast aspersions on the people, there are plenty of people who
(14:54):
weren't seeing race in that waybut it was an interesting
experience living there.
When we came to Mississippi.
My wife and I made the decisionwe could have moved to a couple
areas around town.
We decided we wanted to sort ofpurposely move into one of the
communities that was a bit moreracially mixed, integrated, and
(15:17):
so we moved into an area thathad a much more even balance of
white African-American familiesI wanted my kids to experience I
didn't want them just to havethat experience that it had in
Georgia up to that point, and sofar I think that's been a
pretty successful experience.
(15:38):
I hope so.
I think so.
One of the things that reallymakes my heart, heart, uh, happy
a little bit.
Um, I realized that the term andthe phrase colorblind has some
negative associations and I'mnot trying to defend that term,
uh, specifically, but two of mykids I've had conversations with
about a friend of theirs or akid they're playing with or
(16:00):
talking with or competingagainst in a spelling bee or
something.
We were talking about him andlater on we'd be driving down
the street like oh, hey, that'sso-and-so and it's a black child
.
And at no point in ourconversation have they felt the
need to distinguish betweenthat's who it was.
And I guarantee you mygeneration, if you were saying,
hey, who are you talking to Justthe first go-to, as I would
(16:30):
identify who the person was byyou know, by the color of their
skin, and I I do appreciate thefact that my kids that's not
their first, you know identifiernecessarily when you're talking
about the people that they'reinteracting with.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, no, that's good and I appreciate you both, uh,
having kind of speaking to thatthe sensitive, sensitive nature
of the term because, you know,colorblind can't, can't, like
you said, it can be somenegative associations with it.
But I think ultimately, reallywhat it comes down to is that
the ability to see beyond it.
(16:54):
You know, it's not that you'reseeing faster or even ignoring
it, but it's the ability to seemore than that right, and
understand that there are somany different identities.
Even in the class, for example,seth, that we have at Bell
Haven.
We talk a lot about this, wetalk about overarching
identities, and the reality isthat you know, I'm a Black man,
(17:15):
you're a white man, but that isonly one element of our
overarching identity.
There are so many other piecesand parts that make us who we
are fathers, sons, brothers, youknow, sons of ministers and
churchgoers and history majors,and you know there's all sorts
of other pieces that make us whowe are, and learning how to
(17:36):
uncover some of those, youactually realize how much more
you have in common versus,versus what you have, what you
do not have in common, and so,yeah, I got great appreciation
for also your, your commitmentto diversify your, your, your
living experience with your,with your children, because of
course, we know that there'sthere's all sorts of studies
(17:57):
that show us that we're sharperwhen we have experiences that
are that are different than oursas normative for us, and so
we're sharper intellectuallybecause we're not in those silos
that cause us to just be aroundpeople that look like us, think
like us, act and talk and votelike us, and so we're sharper
(18:18):
intellectually, but we're alsosharper in terms of our empathy,
in terms of our understandingof different experiences, and so
I appreciate that an incredibleamount.
And speaking of which itactually leads me to Belhaven,
because Belhaven is kind ofnestled in one of these very
diverse areas in the city ofJackson where you have this kind
(18:39):
of diversity of both class,diversity of both ethnicity and
culture.
This, this, the kind ofBelhaven district, is just this
really really interesting fusionof all of these different
things that are happening, youknow, culinary and food and just
a lot of different things,really interesting things going
(19:00):
on, including on the campusitself, including on the campus
itself, and so could you kind oftalk a little bit about how the
campus was at your arrival,versus the campus life today, in
the context of diversity, inthe context of culture, class,
ethnicity.
Could you talk a little bitabout that and some of the
lessons that you guys havelearned as that shift has been
(19:23):
happening?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Sure, yeah Well, I'll address some of the components
of that question.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
If there's any that I leave out, just remind me.
It's just a conversation, so wecan just keep going.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, we got it.
As I said, one of the things Ihave to admit, so I need to
confess some of my own sins here.
On occasion, when I first gothere, one of the things I was
concerned about and one of mycolleagues, the American
historian across the hall here,he's from Michigan, and so the
one thing that I was a littleworried about when I first got
(19:59):
here was I'm kind of making thisterm up, but this sort of like
carpetbagger mentality.
You know in American historyAfter the Civil War, those
northern people who would comedown to the south and try to
take over the south and runthings down here.
And I didn't want to be One ofthese two White northerners
Coming down to the south andsaying, okay, you guys have been
(20:21):
doing it wrong, we're going toteach you.
We're going to fix it for you.
Now, having said that, the moreI think about it, I really
think that was probably anexcuse I was making for myself,
to excuse myself from not havingto address some of those things
.
So I hope I'm starting to cometo get past that a little bit,
(20:47):
because I am trying to becomemore engaged in these issues of
race and racial reconciliation.
I mean, you know, I didn't,none of us choose the time and
place that God puts us in.
So what we do is we take theopportunities that God gives us
and we go with it in just tryingto be as sensitive to, you know
, our neighbors as he as as hepossibly can.
(21:08):
So, uh, with that sort of as um, as a background to what we
were saying here, um, one of thefirst things that um, when we
started talking about theseissues, I wanted to do um which,
uh, I know Nettie and Austinhave been involved with from the
beginning was having a specificclass that would be open to
(21:30):
incorporating some of theseideas in a Christian setting.
I was made the Dean ofHumanities and Ministry a couple
of years ago and I've beentrying to sort of incorporate
that into all the academic areasin this school.
You know, maybe not all at once, but sort of easing some of
these ideas into this.
(21:52):
And so just to sort of expressthat, at the outset we it was
back in 2019, I guess that webegan to offer this class called
Studies it's very genericallytitled class um called studies.
It's very generically titled,uh, on purpose, to allow the
instructors to just take it andrun with it.
Um, studies in african-americanhistory and culture.
And, uh, I, I, I don't believeyou were involved in the course
(22:15):
at the first time.
We offered it.
But, um, that class, um, westarted it in 2019.
Um, and we had a.
We had a fellow who was gonna beteaching that class and he got
maybe three weeks into it and,uh, he suffered a bit of a
health scare and a healthconcern and so he wasn't able to
complete that class and, um, Imean, that was not his fault in
(22:38):
any way.
But we're sort of thinking, ohman, I don't know if this is an
attack, because we're trying toreach out and now this fellow is
getting struck down.
I'm thinking in the back of myhead we don't want to end the
class halfway through and of allthe classes, we don't want to
end halfway.
We don't want to end this.
So I had a conversation withthe provost about how can we get
(23:04):
this class to keep going, eventhough we just you know, are
running in these difficulties.
And he said he you know, wetalk about, we think about it.
And he came back to me just acouple days later with this
fantastic idea and a fantasticname um, and the name is meddy
winters I'm pretty certain thatthe provost at the time was Dr
Brad Smith.
(23:25):
Yes, and so he's a friend ofMission Mississippi, but I'm
pretty sure.
Incredible friend.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it'sactually our mutual friend, his
mutual friend and yours, drDolphus Weary, who is a board of
(23:46):
trustees members here atBellhaven, that I'm sure you
know.
Brad reached out and said helpand Dr Weary said hey, you know,
I got just the person who canyou know solve your problem.
So I met with Nettie and I metwith Dr Felicia Bowens.
That day I was sitting acrossthe desk from them and saying,
hey, you guys are my substituteteachers.
I don't, I don't know you yet,but I've heard great things, I'm
(24:08):
sure you can do this.
And um, we, we sort of hashedout how we were going to finish
that class and I kid you, notthe next week COVID hit and we
went remote.
So, wow, I mean, everyuniversity across this country
was trying to figure out.
We had just reached out andfound these instructors, the
(24:32):
Mission Mississippi folks, whowere going to be helping us out
with that, and they had toscramble and figure it out.
I don't know the balance ofwork that was done, but they
figured that class out, theytaught that class out, and I
don't know how they got it towork.
And I don't really rememberwhether Austin was involved in
the class in that iteration,whether he came on not at that
iteration.
Yeah, I think it was the nexttime around that I did it.
(24:55):
But, um, I mean, that class wasthat class was a hit.
Students um, really enjoyed iton I.
I met with a bunch of themafterwards just saying, hey, you
know, guys, I'm sorry about thedifficulties we've run into
here.
Um, we made this commitment tooffer this class to you guys
wanting to be a good experience.
You can do it and they, youknow they they seem to
appreciate you know we did whatwe could to keep the class going
(25:15):
and that they liked thedifference in personalities that
was offered in those in thoseclasses.
And and that just began coupleof times here we've expanded it
to include a more substantialportion of our Mission
(25:39):
Mississippi family.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I know you're involved in that class and
Austin is involved in that classon occasion, it's so fun, man,
dr Perry, it's so fun justsitting in there, if nothing
else, just sitting in and justlistening to the students as
light bulbs come on aboutAfrican-American history and
stories and the journey oftheology, and it's just fun
(26:05):
listening and watching andobserving light bulbs come on.
So we're incredibly gratefulthat we get a chance to
participate as an organizationand incredibly grateful, of
course, like I mentioned, wouldhave loved to have Nettie on
this podcast today, but he'sincredibly grateful that we've
been extended the opportunity toparticipate in it.
So it was an incrediblecommitment from you to make it
(26:29):
happen but, man, we couldn't bemore thankful.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, I mean Nettie's not on here, so you, I'm not
sucking up to him, but he is oneof the more, you know,
charismatic people I've everencountered.
I mean, you, it's hard to spendtime uh with him and not leave
that experience with your heartbuoyed um a little bit about the
future, uh, for us.
And so I mean I know you guysare doing some great
(26:53):
instructional things in thatclass, but, uh, you know, I joke
with people that if all they dois sit there and just listen uh
to you guys and Nettie, youknow, show uh Christian love to
each other, um, and thosestudents, I mean that that's an
experience that they're going toremember and take away with
them, uh, and that that's asuccessful class.
That's a successful experiencefrom my perspective.
(27:14):
It's kind of funny.
Whenever I talk about this classI'll go out to a couple
professors' occasion and say,hey, you know, if you know
anybody that needs a class, thisis a great opportunity from
them.
And I'd say about half the timethe person I go to says, oh man
, I wish I could sit in theirclass.
I know I've met Nettie a coupleof times, or I've met Austin or
whoever it may be, and theyknow, just from reputation, what
(27:36):
you guys do, so that'ssomething I hear pretty
frequently, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
That's awesome.
Tell me, if you could wave amagic wand, what's one thing
you'd love to see Belle Havenkeep building on as it relates
to building this beautifulcommunity, diverse community,
people from different walks oflife and all having this sense
(28:02):
of belonging.
If you could wave a magic wand,what would be the one thing you
would love to see Bell Haven domore of in order to continue to
cultivate and fortify this kindof community?
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Sure, I mean, I think this is just natural to a
university or a community, butwe're frequently siloed off into
our majors, our areas, whatwe're focused on doing, whether
they want us to do a jobpreparation program or a greater
learning experience.
So you know, this is not justtooting your guy's horn, but I
(28:35):
think that a whole variety ofmajors and programs could really
benefit from the kind of things.
Take that class are doing itbecause they know who you guys
(28:55):
are and they want to learn fromyou guys.
Occasionally there might be astudent there who just needs an
extra three credits for this orthree credits for that.
A lot of our programs are sopacked out with material that
some of those students couldn'tdo that.
I really think that, really, anymajor, think about any career
that you're going to be enteringinto Um, and, frankly, as we
(29:18):
talk about as a liberal artscollege, it's not just the
career you start.
You're going to be moving fromcareer to career.
You're going to have differentbosses, you're going to have
different workspaces, you'regoing to have different
colleagues.
All they're going to bedifferent.
Um, it may be that they are allof the same ethnicity, but
chances are, chances are not.
I think all of us are going tohave working with people of all
(29:40):
shapes, sizes and varieties, andso you know, to be honest, I
don't see why a business programshouldn't have even if it's not
a course some sort of module orprogram that says, hey man,
these are the kinds of thingsthat you are going to encounter
in the workplace, and it mightbe a racial issue, it might be a
gender issue, it might be areligion issue, but these are
(30:01):
the kinds of strategies that wecan pursue.
You know, sort of talk our waythrough it.
I mean, I think that's one ofthe fundamental things right of
Mission Mississippi, that it'shaving conversations and
building relationships withpeople who we right now don't
see eye to eye with.
And you know what?
We may not see eye to eye evenat the end of this conversation,
but at least we can communicatewith each other and that's a
(30:23):
skill I mean you need that inevery business or workplace
you're going to be.
You're going to need that inevery education space you're
going to be in.
And I was thinking before wegot on this call you know we've
got a big nursing program here,and I mean nurses.
They serve people across theracial divide, and so I would
(30:43):
hope that most of our nurses arepretty open to that experience.
But you know what having sometraining and encountering both
patients, but also, you know,the families of patients and the
bedside manner to approach indifferent circumstances.
So, even if it's not a course,I can see some sort of training
module or even as a weekendexperience of some sort.
(31:05):
I think that'd be somethingthat we could incorporate across
, you know, across the campus.
I happen to look at the Belhavenmission statement, you know,
because we always try to tiethings into our mission, and
Belhaven's mission is to preparestudents to serve Christ Jesus
in their careers, relationshipsand ideas, and like what we're
talking about, we're talkingabout relationship building.
(31:26):
All of our relationships aren'tgoing to be with people who
look and smell like us, sothat's something we need to do.
And ideas, too, I mean we cansmile and smell like us, so
that's something, that'ssomething we need to.
And ideas, too, I mean we can,we can smile and pretend like
we're getting along, but if ourideas are blocking us, that's
not good.
We need to get past that.
We need to, we need tounderstand these things.
So and I mean careers, I think,also goes, I think all three of
those components really fit inhere.
(31:48):
So I think that would be saying, if I had my magic wand, I
would.
I would really enjoy seeingthat happen.
And it's not that we have aroadblock to doing that, I think
it's just the mentality that wehave.
And it's pretty common inhigher ed that we've got our
certain classes and we've got itset up here and we don't have a
whole lot of space for otherthings.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So we need to have.
It's incredible that you'rementioning it, dr Perry, because
we've had Dr John Anderson,who's the dean of the School of
Law at Mississippi College, on.
He's an incredible friend ofMission Mississippi as well.
But one of the things that weincorporated in the School of
Law, the 1L and the 2L students.
(32:27):
They each get a 90-minute totwo-hour seminar, if you will,
that we call Cultivating HealthyRelationships Across Dividing
Lines.
They get a part one and a parttwo.
The 1L gets to part one where wecover the first two paradigm
shifts, which is moving fromhearing, the listening and
moving from arrogance tohumility.
(32:49):
And then the second yearstudents get the next two
paradigm shifts, which is movingfrom apathy to empathy and
moving from moral force to moralpersuasion, where your
conversations around morality ismore, is more of a dialogue
versus a silencing of voices, apushing and shoving for for the
(33:11):
moral opinions of the day, forthe moral opinions of the day.
And so it's very much in linewith that intent that you, that
you were articulating, which isthis desire to give this kind of
skill set what we call, or whatI like to call, relational
fluency, this relationalcapacity and fluency, the
ability to navigate through,getting along with people of all
(33:32):
different backgrounds, shapes,sizes, experiences, cultures,
and so it's very much, like yousaid, a need for all walks of
life, not just your theologymajors, sociology majors,
history majors, but people fromall backgrounds need this kind
of exposure and need need thiskind of training.
It's almost like a lost art, soto speak, in our cultural
(33:56):
moment, and so, yeah, Iappreciate you even articulating
that and sharing that.
It just reaffirms that we're inthe right space, doing the
right thing.
To hear you say that, if Icould wave a magic wand, that's
what I would do.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, aptitude, empathy.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
You don't have to wave a magic wand.
So let me ask you this Againgetting back to your history
roots you've obviously seen oryou've read and you've studied a
(34:31):
lot to just share.
Are there lessons from history,as you read and as you study,
that can help us navigate andeven figure out some of today's
challenges that we experience?
Of course, I know the Americanstory is a little different from
the European story and theAmerican history is a little bit
(34:51):
different from European history, but at the same time, European
history, I'm sure there arestories of conflict.
I'm sure there are stories inwhich people pursued healing
through conflict or healing overthat conflict.
So are there any lessons thatwe can take from history that
would speak to our currentmoments and maybe even offer
(35:13):
some hope as it relates to ourcurrent moments?
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, I'll see what I can do about that.
I like to try to connect myunderstanding of history with my
Christian faith right, so I tryto figure out how I can do a
theology of history and when Iwas thinking about some of these
(35:42):
concepts about racialreconciliation, what we can do,
working for this, is that, youknow, historians really engage
with the past, engage withforeign countries and we learn
about all the manifold anddifferent ways that God
expresses his creativity throughall the events of the past.
And I think one of the waysthat God shows his creativity in
(36:08):
his workings through the pastis that it was his choice to
make us a diverse group ofpeople.
I mean, god could have made usall looking identical, he could
have made us looking all thesame, but it's an expression of
his will for us to be a diversepeople.
I think it's an expression ofGod's image in us in diversity,
(36:34):
of God's image in us indiversity.
God cannot be expressed in justone white guy, one black guy,
you know, whatever it may be.
And so I think that sometimeswe tend to make God into our
image rather than seeing that weare made in God's image.
Right, we tend to think of Godas being kind of like us.
(36:56):
So I think that the study ofhistory one of the things it can
do is it can really displaceour assumptions about what
reality is by showing us justhow, you know, odd and
unsettling our currentcircumstances are that we are
just, you know, one moment inthis timeline continuing.
(37:18):
I think that understanding thepast and understanding all the
ways that God has worked hiswill through events and
experiences, hopefully will giveus a wider expression of how
he's trying to carry out hiswill through his people.
As I said, I think of the mosaicof humanity, so the range of
(37:41):
different people that God made.
That's how God representshimself to us.
Now, I know I don't want towalk in any heresy, I know that
Jesus was born in his humannature, he had ethnicity as a
human person, but that's not,you know, that's not what I'm
talking about, god in general,that his image is our multiple
racial identities.
(38:02):
I was thinking about thisphrase and I think that in order
to really understand God, weneed to understand the diversity
of humanity.
Why did he choose to um, whydid he choose this, this path?
And well, I don't think we canever really, you know, fully
understand God this side, uh,you know this side, this side of
(38:22):
heaven.
I think that understand that hewants us to um, have all of
these different appointments.
I think the same thing isprobably the case, um, with all
the um, multiple, themultiplication of denominations.
Sometimes I think that onedenomination will focus on this
aspect of God.
I think, like a diamond, rightOne facet.
This reveals this element toGod.
(38:43):
This facet reveals anotherelement to God.
I think the same thing is thecase with cultures.
So I think that deeply studyingEuropean history, south
American history, africanhistory, whatever it may be,
that reveals something about theway that God works his way
through people.
It's not going to be the samestory how God wants us to act
(39:11):
towards building up hismulti-dimensional no-transcript,
man.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
that's a great way to tackle it.
So thank you for taking areally, really healthy stab.
I appreciate it, man.
It was well worth it and thisinterview has been well worth it
.
So thank you for just your timeand helping us navigate
reconciliation from a universityperspective, which has been
really, really intriguing andreally, really interesting.
If you could give one piece ofadvice to anyone, whether it be
(39:47):
a student, parent, communityleader, on how to build bridges
and foster unity, just from yourvantage point, what would it be
?
What would be that one piece ofadvice?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, I mean, I guess my best piece of advice would
be just to get started oneperson at a time.
I guess my best advice would bejust to get started one person
at a time.
I mentioned earlier on thisconversation.
You know I had excuses formyself for why my voice might
not be heard, because I had thisself-perceived outsider status.
But you know what?
(40:20):
You can't let that hold youback.
So, even though I like grandinitiatives, it really starts
one person at a time right.
So you reach out to one person,you form that bond, you form
that relationship, you learnabout that person, you learn
about all the ways that they aresimilar to you and different
than you.
The one thing I failed tomention in my earlier comment I
(40:44):
talked about all this diversity,but, man, I can't believe I
forgot to mention unity.
Earlier comment, I talked aboutall this diversity, but, man, I
can't believe I forgot tomention unity.
We need to celebrate diversity.
We need to celebrate unity too.
You and I are brothers inChrist.
We have that in common, and sowhile in my classes and in the
lessons that we do, we talkabout all the variety of things
that God has done and thatpeople have done.
(41:05):
We also worship the same God,right, we have the same Savior,
and so that common tie, that'sone of the ways that I feel
confident, you know, reachingout to my brothers and sisters,
regardless of you know wherethey're coming from or where
they go, we have that in commonand so, even if I can't think of
any other way to start aconversation with somebody,
(41:29):
that's a place to get started,particularly in the South, where
we've got, if nothing else,we've got, cultural Christianity
right, and so that's a placewhere we can get started.
Most people, at least in thespheres that I circulate in,
most people at least, want toadmit to not going to church.
So that's at least a place youcan start by saying, hey, you
know, let's see where that is.
(41:50):
And you know it stacks up, youknow, like Lego blocks or like
Jenga pieces.
I think that that would bewhere it was.
Don't let the you know, whenyou hear about problems, you
might be overwhelmed and youmight let it get you down
because you're not going to beable to tackle it.
I mean, I can't tackle it.
You can't tackle it.
We talked about Nettie'ssuperhero status.
(42:11):
He can't tackle it.
You got to do it one piece at atime and then you build up sort
of a web of relationships andcommunity and then the two of
you can work together and, asscripture says right, the two
people working together is a tiethat can't be unbound.
So that would be my adviceDon't let the enormity or the
(42:32):
perceived enormity of the taskreally discourage you from
moving forward, but take it onestep at a time and work towards
building that one solidrelationship, having a good
relationship, a solidrelationship, rather than just
sort of tepid or inch-deeprelationships with a bunch of
people, I think, and that canreally be a foundation to build
(42:53):
this movement at Tapa.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yeah, that's a great way to close out our time, doc,
and I appreciate again your timeand your counsel, your advice
and the work that you're doingfor the community of Jackson,
but ultimately the state ofMississippi, belle Haven
University.
Is there any way that peoplecan keep up with Dr Perry, any
things that you're doing inwhich you want to inform people
(43:17):
in terms of social media work,or do you want to just point
them to Belle Haven Universityand encourage them to send their
kids there?
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yeah, there you go.
I've got my page on bellhavenuniversity, but, my goodness, I
do not have a single a socialmedia site.
I am uh, uh, I'm an historian,so I like old things, so
sometimes I feel like I'mactually really old-fashioned.
I have never got involved inthat and uh, uh, maybe that's
for good or for ill.
But yeah, if you, if you needto reach out, my email address
(43:44):
is there on bellhaven, uh, I'dlove to talk to any of you,
would like to have a deeperconversation with any things
that I've talked about here, butthat that is the best place.
Yeah, definitely, I mean you,you heard you, you come to
belhaven, you can, you can hearthis kind of stuff and you can
take a class taught by missionmississippi where else?
That's great.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
So absolutely that.
That right there is a greatplug.
And so, and why is that theleast surprising thing of the
day to hear that the historianhas no social media pages?
Speaker 2 (44:13):
I had a Twitter, but it was still Twitter when I was
on it, so that tells you howlong ago it's been since I
posted on that.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Yeah, dr Perry.
Thank you so much again forjoining us.
Dr Perry, thank you so muchagain for joining us and for
anybody that is listening.
Please feel free to continue tosubscribe, or feel free to
subscribe to Living Reconciledpodcast.
You can do that by going to anypodcast app and searching for
Living Reconciled Mission,mississippi, and that should get
you in contact with us.
Feel free also to share thisepisode, but also the podcast,
(44:44):
with friends and family members,and feel free to like this
episode when you like it.
It actually generates moretraffic towards this podcast and
we would love for you to beable to do that On behalf of my
good friends and their apps.
That he winners in Austin Hoyleand my guest and friend, dr
Seth Perry my name is BrianCrawford signing off saying God
(45:07):
bless.
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