February 1, 2025 • 39 mins
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What does it truly mean to reflect God’s image in today’s world? In this episode, Brian, Austin, and Neddie have a deep and thought-provoking conversation and explore the divine identity we all share. Neddie reminds us of humanity’s intrinsic value, while Austin challenges us to see our divine reflection before our flaws. They also tackle the dangers of materialism, the power of empathy, and the sacredness of every individual. A great conversation recorded over the holidays but with significant relevance for every day of the year.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
(00:32):
I am your host, brian Crawford,hanging out with my incredible
friends, good friends, austinHoyle, nettie Winters co-host
with me on Living Reconciled.
Gentlemen, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Oh, I'm good, I am wonderful man, it's good,
tociled Gentlemen, how are youdoing?
Oh, I'm good, I am wonderfulman, it's good to see you,
gentlemen, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You were slow out of the gate with that comment.
What were you?
You ready to go?
How you feeling?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I'm ready to roll, man.
I'm ready to roll, all right,well good, good, good, before we
roll too fast.
I was slow out of the gatebecause I was thinking
incredible friends.
I always have thoughts abouthow you describe us as your
friends.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Dear friend Stupendous.
What was it Prodigious, dearfriends incredible friends.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Then I had to go to Google and the dictionary to
figure out what kind of friend Iam.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Dear friends, today Soful stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
I thought they did engineering at Erdic.
I didn't know.
They did vocabulary lessons.
I guess you have to have a goodvocabulary Before we go too far
.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Gentlemen, give a quick shout out to folks like
Mississippi College, where theyteach English and very fancy
words there.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
I got an English degree from there.
I got an English degree fromthere.
I got an English degree.
That's my alma mater, that's mydepartment.
Man, I used to hang out there.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Anderson United Methodist Church and Grace
Temple Church, mississippi StateReal Christian Foundation,
nissan, st Dominic's Hospital,abnus Energy, regents Foundation
, brown Missionary BaptistChurch, christian Light Church
and good folks like Ms DorisPowell, robert Ward and Winters.
It's because of supporters likeyou that Mission Mississippi is
able to do what we do.
And, by the way, if you wouldlike to join this wonderful
(02:16):
group of individuals andchurches and companies and
foundations who are investing inthe work of reconciliation by
investing in Mission Mississippi, it's an incredibly easy thing
to do.
Just go tomissionmississippiorg and click
on the donate slash, investbutton so that you can join them
in investing in the work thatthe Lord is doing in our state,
(02:37):
the work of reconciliation.
Gentlemen, what we are doingtoday is talking about the ideal
concept of image of God, imagebearers, a fundamental ideal in
Christian thought, I believe.
In fact, the understanding thatwe carry around the image of
(03:00):
God shapes how we think aboutthe work of reconciliation,
which is why I believe it's soinstrumental and so important
for us to talk about this today.
So let's jump right in it.
When we talk about image of God, nettie Winters, when you hear
that word image of God whatsprings to mind first?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
What springs to mind for me is that as we look at one
another, we're looking at theimage and likeness of God.
That's why I believe that hesays there should be no graven
images and likeness created ofhim.
Pictures is another thing,because when you look at a human
being, you have the image andlikeness of God, the DNA of God
(03:41):
in us, and so I think about ourrelationship with Him, our
relationship with one another,how that all ought to work out,
and that we should be looking ateach other as God looks at us
individually and collectively.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
So those are some of the things I just think about.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
When I think about in the beginning, I like to say it
like this Brian Austin, youknow, verses 1 and Genesis 1,
verses 1 through 25 talk aboutall the things that God created
and how, each time he'd createthose things, he would look at
it and say it was good.
And then he had createdeverything through verse 25,
(04:20):
except the human being.
And then in verse 26, 27, 28,he talks about creating us in
his image and his likeness.
And then, when I drop down toverse 30, it says that God
looked at after he had createdman and human being with all
other things.
He looked at his creation andsaid it was very good.
And I say man after God createdman, everything got good.
(04:44):
Not only good, but very good.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, yeah, man after God created men, everything got
good, Not only good, but verygood.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it took.
It took him a few thousandyears, but he finally reached
perfection right there, nettie,yeah you go, man.
That's right, that's right andthat's what I believe.
That's what I believe.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
It's not in the Bible , but you know when you read
verse 28 to 29, doesn't it saylet's create man in our own
image and our life.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, I think somewhere in the Hebrew it says
Nettie Ray, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah, when you talk about image of God, austin, and
we have to tread carefully withour philosophy scholar here,
because he can take us I wasgoing to be really good.
He can take us into deep watersand drown us in this discussion
.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
I was going to talk about astrophysics, so I was not
going to do theology.
I promise you.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
So for the layman Austin, when you think about
image of God, what comes to mind?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I think it's one of the most primary ways in which
we have to view ourselves ashumans.
Uh, I, I think that it comesbefore total depravity, at least
in chronological order of thescripture and it's in the very,
very first chapter.
It's, it's, it's almost like andI I think that the purpose of
the entire first chapter ingenesis is to focus on us as
(06:02):
being made in the image of godas, comparatively to all of the
rest of creation, because it'snot in it's, that's not in the
image of god, but god hadcreated something that's in the
image of god and and I jokedabout astrophysics it's almost
like the.
The moon is a reflection of thesun, which is the ultimate power
in our solar system right andso in that way, the moon is
(06:26):
reflecting the image of the sunonto the earth so that we can
see it, and I think that weoperate.
I think that the image of Godis much the same way that we
reflect.
God shines on us and we reflectGod's likeness and image and
goodness and morality and orderto the rest of creation.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I appreciate, I appreciate you making that point
where you're highlighting howGenesis one really is pointing
us towards the image of God.
Primarily, that thrust in thatthrust of Genesis one is about
painting this picture of who wewere and and and.
Then, because the rest of thechat, the rest of the book, is
(07:08):
showing us who we become as aresult of sin, and that image
has not been completely andtotally erased, but it has been
marred, it has been disrupted,so to speak, and and really, the
journey for for us, as humanityis to, is to be uh, restored
back to that full and completeuh, reflection, uh and imaging
(07:34):
of god through christ.
And so, christ, exactly thejourney, the journey of
scripture, is through christ weare restored and recovered back
to what netty talks about in thevery beginning, where god
creates and he's and he and he'slooking at all these things and
he's saying it's good, it'sgood, it's good, and then, of
course, sin, mars, that goodness.
But the journey for us is,through Christ, we are able to
(07:57):
have that restored and see it inits fullness, that recovery
back to the image that hecreated us in and see it in its
fullness that recovery back tothe image, the heat, the sin,
primarily.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I think two of the different ways that we always
kind of understand ourselves asa species from Scripture's point
of view is and it's almost likeit's we usually always, in fact
, most responsible Christiandoctrines always have image of
God and total depravitysomewhere in the mix.
But I think as Christians and Ido think chronological order
(08:31):
means something, and I do thinkprimary focus of who we are in
our most ideal state, which iswhat we would be in the Garden
of Eden, the initiation ofcreation, all of that is really
how God sees us.
So when God says everything wasgood in Genesis 1, I think
(08:51):
that's what salvation does to us.
It brings us back to that stateof everything being good in
God's eyes.
So when I say image of Godshould be primary, that's my
perspective, because that is thegoal that we're ultimately
(09:13):
aiming towards, or really thatGod is aiming towards for us.
And then total depravity is asignificant doctrine to look at.
But I think when we are lookingat total depravity as our
starting point, I think we couldsometimes miss, because we do
that for practical purposes,because the total depravity is
(09:34):
in fact what we see almost everyday of our lives.
I mean, we see that, let me jumpin and add to that real quick,
austin.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Oh, okay, because I'm thinking about recently.
I may have mentioned this acouple of episodes ago, but
we're working through Luke atour church.
So my mind and my heart, myattention, is fixed and devoted
on a lot of passages in Luke,and one of those passages that
comes to mind kind of brings meto what you're discussing right
(10:05):
now, when Jesus calls his firstdisciples.
It's an experience on a boatfishing and he tells them to
cast their let's go out into thedeep, cast your nets into the
deep.
And then they cast those netsinto the deep, and then they
begin to pull so much fish thatit takes two boats to to to
(10:26):
capture all the fish and theweight of the fish.
And then Peter says oh, getaway from me, right I'm.
I am a sinner, I'm a sinful man.
And and and instead of the Lord, and instead of the Lord
responding yeah, exactly Right.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
God, right, right.
He says, um, no, come, come,and I'm going to make you a
fishers of men, basically Peter.
Make you fishers of men,basically Peter.
When he sees Christ for who heis, in that moment he sees this
divine power on display.
He sees himself.
He's like, oh my goodness, Idon't deserve to be in this
(11:05):
moment with him.
And it's the same thing thathappens in Isaiah 6, when Isaiah
is in the temple and he seesthe train or the robe of God
filling the temple, he says I ama man of unclean lips and I
dwell amongst a people ofunclean lips.
And so he sees himself in thatmoment.
But then, at the same time, god, in grace and in mercy
(11:29):
incredible grace and mercy seessomething else.
And so God sees the same thingPeter sees, and he's seen it way
before Peter saw it.
And God sees the same thingIsaiah saw in himself, and he
saw it way before Isaiah saw it.
And yet, because of the graceand mercy that we've received in
Christ and through Christ, godpushes past that and says I'm
(11:52):
going to make you more.
And so you're going to befishers of men.
Or, in Isaiah's case, hey, coalon your lips, coal on your
tongue, you're going to be madeclean.
And so there's this reality,yet that, like you said, our
image has been marred.
But God, through Christ, seessomething glorious, because his
(12:18):
grace, his mercy, his power isable to perfect that which has
been corrupted, and so he cansee us in our fullest potential
beauty.
In that that, yes, you canwrestle with the reality of what
(12:40):
we've become, but not to thedetriment of losing sight of who
we are in Christ.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we do that too often, I think,
and it can come out in weird,subtle ways.
We can almost have too much ofa focus on the material world.
Yeah, to the point where totaldepravity or we don't even use,
sometimes, the the language oftotal depravity we just have
such a focus on the materialworld that that we we don't
(13:04):
focus on the spiritual thingslike almost at all we don't.
We don't focus on innategoodness um at all.
We don't focus on how christcan be in things.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
To a degree of oh no, you see him also, but he's
doing this, he's leaving.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I see it.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
That's the reason why I was going to get my thoughts
finished.
We want to jump in and also seeif I want to jump in and never
stop.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no no, no, I knew the game would
change as soon as you startedtalking.
I was just wanting to get mythoughts out and then I was
going to let you change the game.
How much more time do you needto get all those thoughts out?
Oh, I'm done.
You already got it to tell in.
You got it.
I said my last sentence andthen you jumped in.
It was perfect timing.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, so you know this toe, depravity and all that
other language you use is great, but in the language you use is
great.
But in a sense, here's where Isee a problem.
Here, brian, to answer yourquestion, when we look at one
another, we see the image andlikeness of ourselves, and so as
a comparison standpoint wedon't have anything.
(14:08):
You know, we don't want tocompare ourselves to God and to
Jesus, but when we're confrontedwith that and have no option
other than you know, youmentioned Peter Peter here is
telling Jesus the whole time.
You may be a preacher, but youdon't know nothing about fishing
man.
You know, I'm a professionalfisherman man.
Let me tell you about fishing.
(14:29):
Exactly, you're a master,you're a good teacher, but I
know about fish and so he hedoesn't even come into the
context of understanding whohe's talking to as the lady at
the well, as we see.
You know we had theseconversations because we're
looking at him as any otherhuman being, right?
(14:51):
Right and so when he illustrateexactly who he is and what he
is capable of all of a sudden.
Now we get to say wow.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, it becomes wow.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
So we have this habit , or should I say we have the
potential and potency and allthose things which just comes
out to say I'm going to look atBrian and see where he's short
at, see where he's not making it, see where he's messing up at,
and I'm going to focus on thatabout him so I can feel good
about all the wonderful thingsI'm doing in those same areas.
(15:24):
Maybe, or I find somethingnegative to say about the other
person or find something wrongwith the person.
So when I look at others, Ilook at the fallen image and
likeness of man, and so,therefore, I have a lot that I
can compare, because you couldpick any day of the week, any
person of the week, regardlessof how accomplished they are.
(15:46):
You can find some dents in thearmor, as I say, you can find
some blemishes on their skin orsomething.
You could find something thatyou could put down to make
yourself feel good or whateverelse.
And so you know, god breathedinto human beings.
He didn't breathe into ananimal.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
True.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
But he breathed into a human being.
You know, we find that inGenesis 2-7, where he breathed
life into man, and so we havesomething that no one else has.
We're the jewel or we're thecrown of God's creation.
God had this thing of DNA, ofrelationships, in mind when he
designed us.
When he created us, he hadrelationships in mind
(16:28):
Relationship first of all withhim, and then right relationship
with ourselves within ourselves, and the right relationship
with ourselves within ourselves,and the right relationship with
others.
And so often we can't get theright relationship with
ourselves within excuse me,within right.
So therefore we have, as Austinhas articulated earlier, we
(16:49):
have this flawed view of howhuman beings should look, how
they should act and other things, and so then we look at as you
were described, then we look atJesus and go like man, I'm such
a sinner.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
But even having the thought of thinking that some
good thing dwells in me and Ireally don't want to admit and
acknowledge that there is nogood thing, dwells in me.
The Bible tells us there's nogood thing.
You know, we're dirty fit torags in the sight of God, but in
the sight of one another man,we are ruined to bread.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
But and that's the thing, it's like the tension of
the reality of who we are apartfrom Christ, apart from God, and
the reality of who we are inChrist and in God.
And there's always this,there's always this seesaw, so
to speak, where you can go.
This side, you can go a littletoo high in terms of who you
(17:49):
think you are and your ownarrogance, so to speak, or pride
, and then you're like Peter,saying, hey, listen, I know
about fishing, what do you knowabout this thing?
Saying, hey, listen, I knowabout fishing, what do you know
about this thing?
But then you can go to theother side, right where you see
yourself as so fallen and socorrupt that you don't even
believe that you're redeemable,when God is saying no, no, no,
no, no, I'm the one who redeems.
(18:10):
I'm the one who cleanses.
You know, like Peter, the Peteris saying and Acts, who says
hey, you know, you can't touchany of this food.
In my dream man, all this foodis unclean.
He's like wait a second, I'mGod, I'm the one who cleanses,
yeah, yeah.
So that goes for us as well.
He's the one who cleanses us.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I see myself in Peter a lot, because even in the
conversation with Jesus, commonsense even if you didn't
recognize who he was and what hewas saying even common sense
would have said man, you oughtto just do as he says to do.
Because he says to Peter Peter,you fished all night.
You caught nothing.
Don't you want to catch somefish?
Man, I'm telling you where togo to catch some fish.
In other words, what do you gotto lose?
(18:50):
Right, right, you ain't gotnothing from nothing, leaving
nothing.
So the only thing you could comeup, the worst thing could
happen is that you come up withnothing.
You still have nothing, youain't lost anything, but you got
the whole world again.
And so you know, we have thatimage and likeness of ourselves.
I'm just telling you ourthoughts and our natural ability
(19:12):
, if I can say it that way,austin, I know you MC English
major, but anyway, our thoughtsand who gives to this program?
Now you know our thoughts andprocess of the capacity there
can't get to that level tounderstand and appreciate that
(19:33):
without the revelation of God,without the revelation of God,
without the spirit of God,without all of the savior.
So that's where we miss thisimage, and that's why we can be
so contradictory.
That's how we can we can teachthe Bible and talk about how to
love one another, but at thesame time, ignore the fact that
we're not doing what we'reteaching to do.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Hey, there's a sense that he, you know, there's a
sense, nettie, you know.
Scholars kind of go back andforth on this in terms of what
is meant by the image of God.
We're talking about God's.
He created in us thisrelational capacity that we can
relate back to him in ways thatno other creation can, no other
being can, and so our souls, ourcapacity to relate back to him
(20:32):
in full fellowship, is somethingthat is unique to us, and so we
image him in that way.
But then there's the other sideof this discussion where they
say well, actually it's imagingin the sense of when the
ancients talked about that, theywould send an image barrier of
the king.
(20:52):
They're talking about almost anambassador, representative of
the king, which is why you havein Genesis, in that same passage
where God says let us make manin our image and likeness.
It then, right after that, youhear in order that they might
have dominion, exercise dominionin the earth.
(21:15):
And so it's like thisrepresentation, this
ambassadorship, where we areoperating on God's behalf in the
earth to work and to keep andto tend to it and to bring
flourishing and be fruitful andmultiply, and so we image him in
that way, as a representativeof him in the earth In my mind,
(21:36):
to be honest, which I think is alittle both.
And I think when you hear imageof God, you're hearing this
representation that God hasgiven, that God has assigned us
to in the earth, but you're alsoseeing and hearing this
relational soul capacity that wehave to fellowship with God and
(21:58):
that, alone, when we thinkabout that, he's created no
other being with that kind ofcapacity.
When you think about the threedifferent ends, that alone
should raise the bar as itrelates to how we treat one
another.
That should raise the bar interms of what we're willing to
do to one another and what we'rewilling to say to one another.
That should raise the bar interms of what we're willing to
do to one another and what we'rewilling to say to one another.
(22:20):
You know what I mean.
And so talk a little bit aboutjust how image of God, just this
idea that I just kind ofarticulated for a moment.
Talk to me about how that hasshaped the way you interact
personally with people in yourlife, day to day, that you come
across, that you see, that youhave conversations with, that
(22:40):
you work with.
Talk to me about how that hasshaped your own lives.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Well, from my perspective, when I think about
the body, soul and spirit body,soul and spirit there's some
part of God in me and there'ssome part of me in God, and so
(23:06):
when I think about that, I haveto keep that in mind.
As I look at you and I look atAustin, I look at other human
beings, I got to keep in mindthat there's nothing in me
that's unique as it relates tocomparison with you and Austin.
Whatever I have in me, you havein you.
Some of us maybe demonstrated alittle bit different or greater
than others, but the samepotential potency.
(23:28):
All of those things exist in us.
And so when I look at otherhuman beings you know, one of
the things in race relationsthat I've already thought about
when we're having conversationsis about, you know, this thing
of understanding.
Somebody have said, and rightlyso, that the greatest need of a
human being is to be understood,except for physical survival,
(23:52):
except for physical survival.
So when I look at Austin and Ilook at Brian, they have an
eagerness in them, as I do in me, which is the same.
We want to be understood.
How often we talk to each other.
But you'll understand.
But you'll understand.
I've said it and I'm sureyou've said it and I know if you
(24:15):
got into children runningaround or spouse running around
or had a mom and daddy runningaround.
You've heard it more, boy, youunderstand me and you're
standing there with not a clue.
I have been, and so the greatestneed for me as a human being,
to be understood.
Well, if I understand thatabout me, I got to understand
that about you.
(24:36):
So I have this thought andprocess, or calling process.
Why don't I seek to understandyou first before seeking to be
understood?
And I think if I could practicethat as perfectly as I practice
(24:56):
being understood, things wouldbe a whole lot better as it
relates to the image andlikeness of God.
And so when we think about eachother, we got to think about
you, talk about connecting andrelation to each other and
acting out.
We got to think about the samegood stuff or the same bad stuff
.
I think the word is potensity.
(25:17):
I'm probably not pronouncing itcorrectly, but we have it in us
and I think that's where somepeople have coined the phrase.
Except for the grace of God,they'll go out right.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, and you talk about propensity, potential and
propensity is what I hear yousaying is that, because we're
made in the image of God, we allcarry this, this potential to
image him more fully andcompletely.
But also, because we've beenmarred by sin, we all carry the
propensity to to waver from thatpotential.
(25:49):
And so I love, I love the fact,nettie, that you're, you're how
, you're, how you're basicallypointing to the reality that,
because we're made in an imageof God, we, you and I and Austin
, we carry a very similarsubstance in us, if you will
Right that, that, that, thatwhat's going on and what's going
(26:10):
on in Austin is going on in meand vice versa, in me and vice
versa, and thus I should carry alevel of empathy to acknowledge
that we're not that far apart,that God has wired and created
(26:32):
us in such a way where the samegrace that's available to me I
should extend to him, because weare like you said, we're made
with the same stuff.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Well, god expects for you to extend whatever he
extends to you in grace,forgiveness, love, compassion.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
He fully expects for you to put it in circulation,
man, he don't expect for you to,because those people that he
wants you to put it incirculation to, they were
created in the same imageExactly, and they got the same
need same desires, same wantsyou talk about.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
We're not for a part, we're not a part at all.
Yeah, we create the categories,we create the divides.
We create the clusters and clansand all that other stuff.
And because we do, now we'rebasing our judgment on what
we've been taught culturally orotherwise, what we picked it up
(27:23):
from.
So now we get into attributes,we go as far as you know.
How do I say this?
Is that when tattooing becamethe thing to do?
Or the braiding and the other?
What are the other things, thebraiding and what other things
they use?
(27:43):
Oh, you're talking aboutdreadlocks, dreadlocks and now
the twist, and just you know,it's like how creative can I be
with this hair?
Right?
You know what I'm saying?
Like man, I never even dreamedthat you could do with hair what
I see people do with hair nowand for my now, y'all just be
cute and from my perspective, itdoes not enhance you.
(28:05):
Oh there, he goes.
Great show.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
You're meddling now.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Rich sold it just in time for Christmas.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, so you got this way of styles and culture and
it doesn't for my part, itdoesn't enhance you.
So therefore, now I got reasonor justification to criticize
you based on how it would appear, rather than how it would
(28:35):
appear.
You know, jay says a guy rose inin his golden chariot and with
the latest sandals and all thatstuff on and shows up in your
current game and you give himthe best seat in the hall.
This other guy come in worntared, wore out sandals or
whatever else.
Man, you go over there and setmy footstool and you know if we
(28:56):
get around to you good or not.
You just be a, you go and stayin your place over there, kind
of thing he said.
Isn't that evil?
He said that's bare thought.
It's evil of how we look at oneanother and strictly based on
that, we're in the season I gotto throw it in there.
We're in the season ofChristmas.
(29:19):
When I read Luke 2, verse 7 andverse 11, capstones it for me.
Verse 7 says there was no roomin the end man.
Now, I had this image Austin,don't judge me too hard here.
I had this image that Josephand Mary shows up at this end,
(29:40):
right and somewhat of raggedyclothes, maybe Her sitting on a
donkey, maybe she didn't ride inon a camel with entourage, and
you know, and you know all ofthat stuff, pack, muse, and all
that stuff.
So she shows up, they show up,and here's this forgive me,
(30:01):
raggedy-looking couple.
And they're going to bust upinto the end and say you know we
need a place.
And they're like not here,you're not.
You know we got to stay withour back.
If you just got to have a placeto get shelter, go out there.
And it's obvious.
This woman the Bible says thatshe was ready to give birth.
(30:22):
That's right.
It was a hard point in time.
This lady is about to drop akid and this guy is talking
about well, not here, you won't.
So that's how we do, man, welook at the materialistic, the
attributes of accomplishments,we look at ability and capacity
(30:43):
and all of those things that setus apart, maybe, from some
others, and that's what we makeour judgment on.
And it's contradictory of whatthe Bible says.
It just totally contradicts.
And I believe that's why Jesusstarted with the poor people.
That's why he says I come toset the captives free and all of
that.
So the image and likeness ofGod should be operating by the
(31:06):
Spirit of God in us and not byour own human capacity.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
That's my.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Christmas message about the image and likeness.
I like it.
It's my Christmas message aboutthe image of God.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
It's the Christmas Eve candlelight service.
Message of the image of God.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Feel free, by the way , to use it.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
When you hear image of God, Austin, how or when you
think about the image of God,how does it help you?
How or when you think about theimage of God, how does it help
you and how does it shape theway you treat those around you?
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Right, right, Well, just throughout my ministry,
there's never been a time,there's never been a church
where I haven't.
And even when I'm in right now,I've only been here for six
months and I've already ran intojust people who have just
serious mental health issues,Right, I mean, and for me that,
or I mean, some of it's spurredon by, um, illicit drug use, uh,
(32:08):
particularly methamphetaminesand other other cocktails, but,
uh, but that's uh, you know, andjust to be meet people whose
whose minds have have gone tosome serious degree, uh, and
just remembering that, uh, that,that that God can still reach
(32:28):
them in some measure, Right,yeah.
(32:49):
Even people whose minds aredisconnected from reality, even
to a small degree sometimes to alarge degree, but even to a
small degree that God is juststill their father, still loves
them, they still to some measurereflect, or can have the
capacity to reflect, the, uh,the moral vision of, of of God
is, um, you know that that, forme, is what the, the, the doctor
of the image of God, does.
Uh, when I do meet people whoyou know, uh, there's a, you
know I'm, I'm thinking inparticular, um, someone that
(33:11):
passed, a schizophrenic man whowho literally heard voices.
I mean, if you talk to him, you, a schizophrenic man who
literally heard voices.
I mean, if you talk to him formore than five minutes, you
would recognize that this personhas added disconnect from
reality but yet, at the sametime, because he is a person who
is made in the image of God,God has the capacity to speak to
(33:34):
him in some measure.
And just through the course ofmy relationship, my friendship
with this man, I did see theauthentic voice of God speaking
to him in some measure, to thepoint where he was able to say
you know, I believe in Christ,even though he had all of these
other issues that he was workingwith, but he was still very
much so.
He was so very, very, very muchso, made in the image of God.
(33:55):
And for me, when I think ofimage of God, I think of those
hard cases.
I think of those hard, hard,hard situations when we really
do just discount people becausethey do have a mental disconnect
from reality, but yet knowingGod is far more powerful than
(34:17):
any illness or any deficit orany abuse of drugs and what the
impact that that might have hadon their minds.
So that's what what's changedPeople who don't necessarily
(34:53):
stay for worship but who come inand just for some reason or
another, end up on my radar andend up in a relationship with me
.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, now, for me, one of the things that has
changed is that it just alwaysprovides well, not always,
because, again, the image of Godis marred in me as well, so
there are times in which I don'talways live up to this, to this
understanding, but but one ofthe things that it has done more
of in my life is I'm a lot less, a lot less prone to treat
(35:35):
people harshly, because image ofGod reminds me of who they
belong to.
Ultimately, there's a sense inownership, where this is God's
creation, he or she is God'screation and I am to treat them
as such.
There's a sacredness that comesalong with understanding that
(35:58):
we're created in the image andlikeness of God, and it's, in
many ways, just like, if youknow the president of the United
States or the president of anycountry you know, some dignitary
were to show up at my house andgive me a rare item that was in
their possession and told me totake care of this while they go
(36:20):
, wherever they're going to go,then you better believe that
we're going to do everythingpossible in my house to care
well for that particular item intheir absence.
Well, how much more so when wetalk about human beings created
in the image and likeness ofpatience, and the sort of
(36:42):
compassion that reflects notjust simply a love for them but,
(37:03):
even more so, reflects a lovefor the God that made them, and
so that's one of the ways inwhich I have been reshaped in
terms of my understanding of howto treat people is just being
reminded that these peoplebelong to God, that, before they
belong to anyone else, theybelong to him and thus must be
(37:23):
treated as such.
Guys, we got a lot that we'regoing to dive into in the course
of this discussion, so whatwe're going to do is we're going
to put pause on today'sdiscussion and jump into part
two of this here in the nextweek or so, and so, for our
podcast listeners, please feelfree to subscribe to Living
(37:46):
Reconciled.
You can do that by going to anypodcast app and searching on
Living Reconciled, and you willnot only be able to catch this
episode but, prayerfully, in acouple of weeks, you'll be able
to catch part two of thisdiscussion as we continue to
dive into.
What does it mean for us to livein light of the reality that we
(38:06):
were created in the image andlikeness of God?
It's been a great conversationthus far Looking forward to more
.
For those of you all who arecelebrating the holidays
hopefully this episode is beingreleased during that time we
want to wish you guys a MerryChristmas and a Happy New Year,
(38:26):
but on behalf of my good friendsAustin Hoyle, nettie Winters,
this is Brian Crawford.
We're signing off saying Godbless.
God bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
(38:47):
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
(00:32):
I am your host, brian Crawford,hanging out with my incredible
friends, good friends, austinHoyle, nettie Winters co-host
with me on Living Reconciled.
Gentlemen, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Oh, I'm good, I am wonderful man, it's good,
tociled Gentlemen, how are youdoing?
Oh, I'm good, I am wonderfulman, it's good to see you,
gentlemen, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You were slow out of the gate with that comment.
What were you?
You ready to go?
How you feeling?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I'm ready to roll, man.
I'm ready to roll, all right,well good, good, good, before we
roll too fast.
I was slow out of the gatebecause I was thinking
incredible friends.
I always have thoughts abouthow you describe us as your
friends.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Dear friend Stupendous.
What was it Prodigious, dearfriends incredible friends.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Then I had to go to Google and the dictionary to
figure out what kind of friend Iam.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Dear friends, today Soful stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
I thought they did engineering at Erdic.
I didn't know.
They did vocabulary lessons.
I guess you have to have a goodvocabulary Before we go too far
.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Gentlemen, give a quick shout out to folks like
Mississippi College, where theyteach English and very fancy
words there.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
I got an English degree from there.
I got an English degree fromthere.
I got an English degree.
That's my alma mater, that's mydepartment.
Man, I used to hang out there.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Anderson United Methodist Church and Grace
Temple Church, mississippi StateReal Christian Foundation,
nissan, st Dominic's Hospital,abnus Energy, regents Foundation
, brown Missionary BaptistChurch, christian Light Church
and good folks like Ms DorisPowell, robert Ward and Winters.
It's because of supporters likeyou that Mission Mississippi is
able to do what we do.
And, by the way, if you wouldlike to join this wonderful
(02:16):
group of individuals andchurches and companies and
foundations who are investing inthe work of reconciliation by
investing in Mission Mississippi, it's an incredibly easy thing
to do.
Just go tomissionmississippiorg and click
on the donate slash, investbutton so that you can join them
in investing in the work thatthe Lord is doing in our state,
(02:37):
the work of reconciliation.
Gentlemen, what we are doingtoday is talking about the ideal
concept of image of God, imagebearers, a fundamental ideal in
Christian thought, I believe.
In fact, the understanding thatwe carry around the image of
(03:00):
God shapes how we think aboutthe work of reconciliation,
which is why I believe it's soinstrumental and so important
for us to talk about this today.
So let's jump right in it.
When we talk about image of God, nettie Winters, when you hear
that word image of God whatsprings to mind first?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
What springs to mind for me is that as we look at one
another, we're looking at theimage and likeness of God.
That's why I believe that hesays there should be no graven
images and likeness created ofhim.
Pictures is another thing,because when you look at a human
being, you have the image andlikeness of God, the DNA of God
(03:41):
in us, and so I think about ourrelationship with Him, our
relationship with one another,how that all ought to work out,
and that we should be looking ateach other as God looks at us
individually and collectively.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
So those are some of the things I just think about.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
When I think about in the beginning, I like to say it
like this Brian Austin, youknow, verses 1 and Genesis 1,
verses 1 through 25 talk aboutall the things that God created
and how, each time he'd createthose things, he would look at
it and say it was good.
And then he had createdeverything through verse 25,
(04:20):
except the human being.
And then in verse 26, 27, 28,he talks about creating us in
his image and his likeness.
And then, when I drop down toverse 30, it says that God
looked at after he had createdman and human being with all
other things.
He looked at his creation andsaid it was very good.
And I say man after God createdman, everything got good.
(04:44):
Not only good, but very good.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, yeah, man after God created men, everything got
good, Not only good, but verygood.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it took.
It took him a few thousandyears, but he finally reached
perfection right there, nettie,yeah you go, man.
That's right, that's right andthat's what I believe.
That's what I believe.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
It's not in the Bible , but you know when you read
verse 28 to 29, doesn't it saylet's create man in our own
image and our life.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, I think somewhere in the Hebrew it says
Nettie Ray, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah, when you talk about image of God, austin, and
we have to tread carefully withour philosophy scholar here,
because he can take us I wasgoing to be really good.
He can take us into deep watersand drown us in this discussion
.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
I was going to talk about astrophysics, so I was not
going to do theology.
I promise you.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
So for the layman Austin, when you think about
image of God, what comes to mind?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I think it's one of the most primary ways in which
we have to view ourselves ashumans.
Uh, I, I think that it comesbefore total depravity, at least
in chronological order of thescripture and it's in the very,
very first chapter.
It's, it's, it's almost like andI I think that the purpose of
the entire first chapter ingenesis is to focus on us as
(06:02):
being made in the image of godas, comparatively to all of the
rest of creation, because it'snot in it's, that's not in the
image of god, but god hadcreated something that's in the
image of god and and I jokedabout astrophysics it's almost
like the.
The moon is a reflection of thesun, which is the ultimate power
in our solar system right andso in that way, the moon is
(06:26):
reflecting the image of the sunonto the earth so that we can
see it, and I think that weoperate.
I think that the image of Godis much the same way that we
reflect.
God shines on us and we reflectGod's likeness and image and
goodness and morality and orderto the rest of creation.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I appreciate, I appreciate you making that point
where you're highlighting howGenesis one really is pointing
us towards the image of God.
Primarily, that thrust in thatthrust of Genesis one is about
painting this picture of who wewere and and and.
Then, because the rest of thechat, the rest of the book, is
(07:08):
showing us who we become as aresult of sin, and that image
has not been completely andtotally erased, but it has been
marred, it has been disrupted,so to speak, and and really, the
journey for for us, as humanityis to, is to be uh, restored
back to that full and completeuh, reflection, uh and imaging
(07:34):
of god through christ.
And so, christ, exactly thejourney, the journey of
scripture, is through christ weare restored and recovered back
to what netty talks about in thevery beginning, where god
creates and he's and he and he'slooking at all these things and
he's saying it's good, it'sgood, it's good, and then, of
course, sin, mars, that goodness.
But the journey for us is,through Christ, we are able to
(07:57):
have that restored and see it inits fullness, that recovery
back to the image that hecreated us in and see it in its
fullness that recovery back tothe image, the heat, the sin,
primarily.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I think two of the different ways that we always
kind of understand ourselves asa species from Scripture's point
of view is and it's almost likeit's we usually always, in fact
, most responsible Christiandoctrines always have image of
God and total depravitysomewhere in the mix.
But I think as Christians and Ido think chronological order
(08:31):
means something, and I do thinkprimary focus of who we are in
our most ideal state, which iswhat we would be in the Garden
of Eden, the initiation ofcreation, all of that is really
how God sees us.
So when God says everything wasgood in Genesis 1, I think
(08:51):
that's what salvation does to us.
It brings us back to that stateof everything being good in
God's eyes.
So when I say image of Godshould be primary, that's my
perspective, because that is thegoal that we're ultimately
(09:13):
aiming towards, or really thatGod is aiming towards for us.
And then total depravity is asignificant doctrine to look at.
But I think when we are lookingat total depravity as our
starting point, I think we couldsometimes miss, because we do
that for practical purposes,because the total depravity is
(09:34):
in fact what we see almost everyday of our lives.
I mean, we see that, let me jumpin and add to that real quick,
austin.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Oh, okay, because I'm thinking about recently.
I may have mentioned this acouple of episodes ago, but
we're working through Luke atour church.
So my mind and my heart, myattention, is fixed and devoted
on a lot of passages in Luke,and one of those passages that
comes to mind kind of brings meto what you're discussing right
(10:05):
now, when Jesus calls his firstdisciples.
It's an experience on a boatfishing and he tells them to
cast their let's go out into thedeep, cast your nets into the
deep.
And then they cast those netsinto the deep, and then they
begin to pull so much fish thatit takes two boats to to to
(10:26):
capture all the fish and theweight of the fish.
And then Peter says oh, getaway from me, right I'm.
I am a sinner, I'm a sinful man.
And and and instead of the Lord, and instead of the Lord
responding yeah, exactly Right.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
God, right, right.
He says, um, no, come, come,and I'm going to make you a
fishers of men, basically Peter.
Make you fishers of men,basically Peter.
When he sees Christ for who heis, in that moment he sees this
divine power on display.
He sees himself.
He's like, oh my goodness, Idon't deserve to be in this
(11:05):
moment with him.
And it's the same thing thathappens in Isaiah 6, when Isaiah
is in the temple and he seesthe train or the robe of God
filling the temple, he says I ama man of unclean lips and I
dwell amongst a people ofunclean lips.
And so he sees himself in thatmoment.
But then, at the same time, god, in grace and in mercy
(11:29):
incredible grace and mercy seessomething else.
And so God sees the same thingPeter sees, and he's seen it way
before Peter saw it.
And God sees the same thingIsaiah saw in himself, and he
saw it way before Isaiah saw it.
And yet, because of the graceand mercy that we've received in
Christ and through Christ, godpushes past that and says I'm
(11:52):
going to make you more.
And so you're going to befishers of men.
Or, in Isaiah's case, hey, coalon your lips, coal on your
tongue, you're going to be madeclean.
And so there's this reality,yet that, like you said, our
image has been marred.
But God, through Christ, seessomething glorious, because his
(12:18):
grace, his mercy, his power isable to perfect that which has
been corrupted, and so he cansee us in our fullest potential
beauty.
In that that, yes, you canwrestle with the reality of what
(12:40):
we've become, but not to thedetriment of losing sight of who
we are in Christ.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we do that too often, I think,
and it can come out in weird,subtle ways.
We can almost have too much ofa focus on the material world.
Yeah, to the point where totaldepravity or we don't even use,
sometimes, the the language oftotal depravity we just have
such a focus on the materialworld that that we we don't
(13:04):
focus on the spiritual thingslike almost at all we don't.
We don't focus on innategoodness um at all.
We don't focus on how christcan be in things.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
To a degree of oh no, you see him also, but he's
doing this, he's leaving.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I see it.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
That's the reason why I was going to get my thoughts
finished.
We want to jump in and also seeif I want to jump in and never
stop.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no no, no, I knew the game would
change as soon as you startedtalking.
I was just wanting to get mythoughts out and then I was
going to let you change the game.
How much more time do you needto get all those thoughts out?
Oh, I'm done.
You already got it to tell in.
You got it.
I said my last sentence andthen you jumped in.
It was perfect timing.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, so you know this toe, depravity and all that
other language you use is great, but in the language you use is
great.
But in a sense, here's where Isee a problem.
Here, brian, to answer yourquestion, when we look at one
another, we see the image andlikeness of ourselves, and so as
a comparison standpoint wedon't have anything.
(14:08):
You know, we don't want tocompare ourselves to God and to
Jesus, but when we're confrontedwith that and have no option
other than you know, youmentioned Peter Peter here is
telling Jesus the whole time.
You may be a preacher, but youdon't know nothing about fishing
man.
You know, I'm a professionalfisherman man.
Let me tell you about fishing.
(14:29):
Exactly, you're a master,you're a good teacher, but I
know about fish and so he hedoesn't even come into the
context of understanding whohe's talking to as the lady at
the well, as we see.
You know we had theseconversations because we're
looking at him as any otherhuman being, right?
(14:51):
Right and so when he illustrateexactly who he is and what he
is capable of all of a sudden.
Now we get to say wow.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, it becomes wow.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
So we have this habit , or should I say we have the
potential and potency and allthose things which just comes
out to say I'm going to look atBrian and see where he's short
at, see where he's not making it, see where he's messing up at,
and I'm going to focus on thatabout him so I can feel good
about all the wonderful thingsI'm doing in those same areas.
(15:24):
Maybe, or I find somethingnegative to say about the other
person or find something wrongwith the person.
So when I look at others, Ilook at the fallen image and
likeness of man, and so,therefore, I have a lot that I
can compare, because you couldpick any day of the week, any
person of the week, regardlessof how accomplished they are.
(15:46):
You can find some dents in thearmor, as I say, you can find
some blemishes on their skin orsomething.
You could find something thatyou could put down to make
yourself feel good or whateverelse.
And so you know, god breathedinto human beings.
He didn't breathe into ananimal.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
True.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
But he breathed into a human being.
You know, we find that inGenesis 2-7, where he breathed
life into man, and so we havesomething that no one else has.
We're the jewel or we're thecrown of God's creation.
God had this thing of DNA, ofrelationships, in mind when he
designed us.
When he created us, he hadrelationships in mind
(16:28):
Relationship first of all withhim, and then right relationship
with ourselves within ourselves, and the right relationship
with ourselves within ourselves,and the right relationship with
others.
And so often we can't get theright relationship with
ourselves within excuse me,within right.
So therefore we have, as Austinhas articulated earlier, we
(16:49):
have this flawed view of howhuman beings should look, how
they should act and other things, and so then we look at as you
were described, then we look atJesus and go like man, I'm such
a sinner.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
But even having the thought of thinking that some
good thing dwells in me and Ireally don't want to admit and
acknowledge that there is nogood thing, dwells in me.
The Bible tells us there's nogood thing.
You know, we're dirty fit torags in the sight of God, but in
the sight of one another man,we are ruined to bread.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
But and that's the thing, it's like the tension of
the reality of who we are apartfrom Christ, apart from God, and
the reality of who we are inChrist and in God.
And there's always this,there's always this seesaw, so
to speak, where you can go.
This side, you can go a littletoo high in terms of who you
(17:49):
think you are and your ownarrogance, so to speak, or pride
, and then you're like Peter,saying, hey, listen, I know
about fishing, what do you knowabout this thing?
Saying, hey, listen, I knowabout fishing, what do you know
about this thing?
But then you can go to theother side, right where you see
yourself as so fallen and socorrupt that you don't even
believe that you're redeemable,when God is saying no, no, no,
no, no, I'm the one who redeems.
(18:10):
I'm the one who cleanses.
You know, like Peter, the Peteris saying and Acts, who says
hey, you know, you can't touchany of this food.
In my dream man, all this foodis unclean.
He's like wait a second, I'mGod, I'm the one who cleanses,
yeah, yeah.
So that goes for us as well.
He's the one who cleanses us.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I see myself in Peter a lot, because even in the
conversation with Jesus, commonsense even if you didn't
recognize who he was and what hewas saying even common sense
would have said man, you oughtto just do as he says to do.
Because he says to Peter Peter,you fished all night.
You caught nothing.
Don't you want to catch somefish?
Man, I'm telling you where togo to catch some fish.
In other words, what do you gotto lose?
(18:50):
Right, right, you ain't gotnothing from nothing, leaving
nothing.
So the only thing you could comeup, the worst thing could
happen is that you come up withnothing.
You still have nothing, youain't lost anything, but you got
the whole world again.
And so you know, we have thatimage and likeness of ourselves.
I'm just telling you ourthoughts and our natural ability
(19:12):
, if I can say it that way,austin, I know you MC English
major, but anyway, our thoughtsand who gives to this program?
Now you know our thoughts andprocess of the capacity there
can't get to that level tounderstand and appreciate that
(19:33):
without the revelation of God,without the revelation of God,
without the spirit of God,without all of the savior.
So that's where we miss thisimage, and that's why we can be
so contradictory.
That's how we can we can teachthe Bible and talk about how to
love one another, but at thesame time, ignore the fact that
we're not doing what we'reteaching to do.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Hey, there's a sense that he, you know, there's a
sense, nettie, you know.
Scholars kind of go back andforth on this in terms of what
is meant by the image of God.
We're talking about God's.
He created in us thisrelational capacity that we can
relate back to him in ways thatno other creation can, no other
being can, and so our souls, ourcapacity to relate back to him
(20:32):
in full fellowship, is somethingthat is unique to us, and so we
image him in that way.
But then there's the other sideof this discussion where they
say well, actually it's imagingin the sense of when the
ancients talked about that, theywould send an image barrier of
the king.
(20:52):
They're talking about almost anambassador, representative of
the king, which is why you havein Genesis, in that same passage
where God says let us make manin our image and likeness.
It then, right after that, youhear in order that they might
have dominion, exercise dominionin the earth.
(21:15):
And so it's like thisrepresentation, this
ambassadorship, where we areoperating on God's behalf in the
earth to work and to keep andto tend to it and to bring
flourishing and be fruitful andmultiply, and so we image him in
that way, as a representativeof him in the earth In my mind,
(21:36):
to be honest, which I think is alittle both.
And I think when you hear imageof God, you're hearing this
representation that God hasgiven, that God has assigned us
to in the earth, but you're alsoseeing and hearing this
relational soul capacity that wehave to fellowship with God and
(21:58):
that, alone, when we thinkabout that, he's created no
other being with that kind ofcapacity.
When you think about the threedifferent ends, that alone
should raise the bar as itrelates to how we treat one
another.
That should raise the bar interms of what we're willing to
do to one another and what we'rewilling to say to one another.
That should raise the bar interms of what we're willing to
do to one another and what we'rewilling to say to one another.
(22:20):
You know what I mean.
And so talk a little bit aboutjust how image of God, just this
idea that I just kind ofarticulated for a moment.
Talk to me about how that hasshaped the way you interact
personally with people in yourlife, day to day, that you come
across, that you see, that youhave conversations with, that
(22:40):
you work with.
Talk to me about how that hasshaped your own lives.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Well, from my perspective, when I think about
the body, soul and spirit body,soul and spirit there's some
part of God in me and there'ssome part of me in God, and so
(23:06):
when I think about that, I haveto keep that in mind.
As I look at you and I look atAustin, I look at other human
beings, I got to keep in mindthat there's nothing in me
that's unique as it relates tocomparison with you and Austin.
Whatever I have in me, you havein you.
Some of us maybe demonstrated alittle bit different or greater
than others, but the samepotential potency.
(23:28):
All of those things exist in us.
And so when I look at otherhuman beings you know, one of
the things in race relationsthat I've already thought about
when we're having conversationsis about, you know, this thing
of understanding.
Somebody have said, and rightlyso, that the greatest need of a
human being is to be understood,except for physical survival,
(23:52):
except for physical survival.
So when I look at Austin and Ilook at Brian, they have an
eagerness in them, as I do in me, which is the same.
We want to be understood.
How often we talk to each other.
But you'll understand.
But you'll understand.
I've said it and I'm sureyou've said it and I know if you
(24:15):
got into children runningaround or spouse running around
or had a mom and daddy runningaround.
You've heard it more, boy, youunderstand me and you're
standing there with not a clue.
I have been, and so the greatestneed for me as a human being,
to be understood.
Well, if I understand thatabout me, I got to understand
that about you.
(24:36):
So I have this thought andprocess, or calling process.
Why don't I seek to understandyou first before seeking to be
understood?
And I think if I could practicethat as perfectly as I practice
(24:56):
being understood, things wouldbe a whole lot better as it
relates to the image andlikeness of God.
And so when we think about eachother, we got to think about
you, talk about connecting andrelation to each other and
acting out.
We got to think about the samegood stuff or the same bad stuff
.
I think the word is potensity.
(25:17):
I'm probably not pronouncing itcorrectly, but we have it in us
and I think that's where somepeople have coined the phrase.
Except for the grace of God,they'll go out right.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, and you talk about propensity, potential and
propensity is what I hear yousaying is that, because we're
made in the image of God, we allcarry this, this potential to
image him more fully andcompletely.
But also, because we've beenmarred by sin, we all carry the
propensity to to waver from thatpotential.
(25:49):
And so I love, I love the fact,nettie, that you're, you're how
, you're, how you're basicallypointing to the reality that,
because we're made in an imageof God, we, you and I and Austin
, we carry a very similarsubstance in us, if you will
Right that, that, that, thatwhat's going on and what's going
(26:10):
on in Austin is going on in meand vice versa, in me and vice
versa, and thus I should carry alevel of empathy to acknowledge
that we're not that far apart,that God has wired and created
(26:32):
us in such a way where the samegrace that's available to me I
should extend to him, because weare like you said, we're made
with the same stuff.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Well, god expects for you to extend whatever he
extends to you in grace,forgiveness, love, compassion.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
He fully expects for you to put it in circulation,
man, he don't expect for you to,because those people that he
wants you to put it incirculation to, they were
created in the same imageExactly, and they got the same
need same desires, same wantsyou talk about.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
We're not for a part, we're not a part at all.
Yeah, we create the categories,we create the divides.
We create the clusters and clansand all that other stuff.
And because we do, now we'rebasing our judgment on what
we've been taught culturally orotherwise, what we picked it up
(27:23):
from.
So now we get into attributes,we go as far as you know.
How do I say this?
Is that when tattooing becamethe thing to do?
Or the braiding and the other?
What are the other things, thebraiding and what other things
they use?
(27:43):
Oh, you're talking aboutdreadlocks, dreadlocks and now
the twist, and just you know,it's like how creative can I be
with this hair?
Right?
You know what I'm saying?
Like man, I never even dreamedthat you could do with hair what
I see people do with hair nowand for my now, y'all just be
cute and from my perspective, itdoes not enhance you.
(28:05):
Oh there, he goes.
Great show.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
You're meddling now.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Rich sold it just in time for Christmas.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, so you got this way of styles and culture and
it doesn't for my part, itdoesn't enhance you.
So therefore, now I got reasonor justification to criticize
you based on how it would appear, rather than how it would
(28:35):
appear.
You know, jay says a guy rose inin his golden chariot and with
the latest sandals and all thatstuff on and shows up in your
current game and you give himthe best seat in the hall.
This other guy come in worntared, wore out sandals or
whatever else.
Man, you go over there and setmy footstool and you know if we
(28:56):
get around to you good or not.
You just be a, you go and stayin your place over there, kind
of thing he said.
Isn't that evil?
He said that's bare thought.
It's evil of how we look at oneanother and strictly based on
that, we're in the season I gotto throw it in there.
We're in the season ofChristmas.
(29:19):
When I read Luke 2, verse 7 andverse 11, capstones it for me.
Verse 7 says there was no roomin the end man.
Now, I had this image Austin,don't judge me too hard here.
I had this image that Josephand Mary shows up at this end,
(29:40):
right and somewhat of raggedyclothes, maybe Her sitting on a
donkey, maybe she didn't ride inon a camel with entourage, and
you know, and you know all ofthat stuff, pack, muse, and all
that stuff.
So she shows up, they show up,and here's this forgive me,
(30:01):
raggedy-looking couple.
And they're going to bust upinto the end and say you know we
need a place.
And they're like not here,you're not.
You know we got to stay withour back.
If you just got to have a placeto get shelter, go out there.
And it's obvious.
This woman the Bible says thatshe was ready to give birth.
(30:22):
That's right.
It was a hard point in time.
This lady is about to drop akid and this guy is talking
about well, not here, you won't.
So that's how we do, man, welook at the materialistic, the
attributes of accomplishments,we look at ability and capacity
(30:43):
and all of those things that setus apart, maybe, from some
others, and that's what we makeour judgment on.
And it's contradictory of whatthe Bible says.
It just totally contradicts.
And I believe that's why Jesusstarted with the poor people.
That's why he says I come toset the captives free and all of
that.
So the image and likeness ofGod should be operating by the
(31:06):
Spirit of God in us and not byour own human capacity.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
That's my.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Christmas message about the image and likeness.
I like it.
It's my Christmas message aboutthe image of God.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
It's the Christmas Eve candlelight service.
Message of the image of God.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Feel free, by the way , to use it.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
When you hear image of God, Austin, how or when you
think about the image of God,how does it help you?
How or when you think about theimage of God, how does it help
you and how does it shape theway you treat those around you?
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Right, right, Well, just throughout my ministry,
there's never been a time,there's never been a church
where I haven't.
And even when I'm in right now,I've only been here for six
months and I've already ran intojust people who have just
serious mental health issues,Right, I mean, and for me that,
or I mean, some of it's spurredon by, um, illicit drug use, uh,
(32:08):
particularly methamphetaminesand other other cocktails, but,
uh, but that's uh, you know, andjust to be meet people whose
whose minds have have gone tosome serious degree, uh, and
just remembering that, uh, that,that that God can still reach
(32:28):
them in some measure, Right,yeah.
(32:49):
Even people whose minds aredisconnected from reality, even
to a small degree sometimes to alarge degree, but even to a
small degree that God is juststill their father, still loves
them, they still to some measurereflect, or can have the
capacity to reflect, the, uh,the moral vision of, of of God
is, um, you know that that, forme, is what the, the, the doctor
of the image of God, does.
Uh, when I do meet people whoyou know, uh, there's a, you
know I'm, I'm thinking inparticular, um, someone that
(33:11):
passed, a schizophrenic man whowho literally heard voices.
I mean, if you talk to him, you, a schizophrenic man who
literally heard voices.
I mean, if you talk to him formore than five minutes, you
would recognize that this personhas added disconnect from
reality but yet, at the sametime, because he is a person who
is made in the image of God,God has the capacity to speak to
(33:34):
him in some measure.
And just through the course ofmy relationship, my friendship
with this man, I did see theauthentic voice of God speaking
to him in some measure, to thepoint where he was able to say
you know, I believe in Christ,even though he had all of these
other issues that he was workingwith, but he was still very
much so.
He was so very, very, very muchso, made in the image of God.
(33:55):
And for me, when I think ofimage of God, I think of those
hard cases.
I think of those hard, hard,hard situations when we really
do just discount people becausethey do have a mental disconnect
from reality, but yet knowingGod is far more powerful than
(34:17):
any illness or any deficit orany abuse of drugs and what the
impact that that might have hadon their minds.
So that's what what's changedPeople who don't necessarily
(34:53):
stay for worship but who come inand just for some reason or
another, end up on my radar andend up in a relationship with me
.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, now, for me, one of the things that has
changed is that it just alwaysprovides well, not always,
because, again, the image of Godis marred in me as well, so
there are times in which I don'talways live up to this, to this
understanding, but but one ofthe things that it has done more
of in my life is I'm a lot less, a lot less prone to treat
(35:35):
people harshly, because image ofGod reminds me of who they
belong to.
Ultimately, there's a sense inownership, where this is God's
creation, he or she is God'screation and I am to treat them
as such.
There's a sacredness that comesalong with understanding that
(35:58):
we're created in the image andlikeness of God, and it's, in
many ways, just like, if youknow the president of the United
States or the president of anycountry you know, some dignitary
were to show up at my house andgive me a rare item that was in
their possession and told me totake care of this while they go
(36:20):
, wherever they're going to go,then you better believe that
we're going to do everythingpossible in my house to care
well for that particular item intheir absence.
Well, how much more so when wetalk about human beings created
in the image and likeness ofpatience, and the sort of
(36:42):
compassion that reflects notjust simply a love for them but,
(37:03):
even more so, reflects a lovefor the God that made them, and
so that's one of the ways inwhich I have been reshaped in
terms of my understanding of howto treat people is just being
reminded that these peoplebelong to God, that, before they
belong to anyone else, theybelong to him and thus must be
(37:23):
treated as such.
Guys, we got a lot that we'regoing to dive into in the course
of this discussion, so whatwe're going to do is we're going
to put pause on today'sdiscussion and jump into part
two of this here in the nextweek or so, and so, for our
podcast listeners, please feelfree to subscribe to Living
(37:46):
Reconciled.
You can do that by going to anypodcast app and searching on
Living Reconciled, and you willnot only be able to catch this
episode but, prayerfully, in acouple of weeks, you'll be able
to catch part two of thisdiscussion as we continue to
dive into.
What does it mean for us to livein light of the reality that we
(38:06):
were created in the image andlikeness of God?
It's been a great conversationthus far Looking forward to more
.
For those of you all who arecelebrating the holidays
hopefully this episode is beingreleased during that time we
want to wish you guys a MerryChristmas and a Happy New Year,
(38:26):
but on behalf of my good friendsAustin Hoyle, nettie Winters,
this is Brian Crawford.
We're signing off saying Godbless.
God bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
(38:47):
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
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