February 5, 2025 • 43 mins
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What if recognizing every person as an image bearer of God could heal our divided society? In this episode of Living Reconciled Neddie and Austin join Brian to explore how Genesis 1:26 calls us beyond political and racial divides to embrace our shared humanity. Through personal stories and historical insights, we confront the dangers of letting ideology overshadow Christian values and discuss the heavy burdens pastors face in a fast-paced world. Reflecting on Martin Luther King Jr. and the parable of the Samaritan, we challenge ourselves to live out a faith rooted in love and action. We also highlight the impactful work of Mission Mississippi, inviting you to be part of reconciliation efforts that promote unity and understanding.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
I am your host, Brian Crawford,with my co-host and very good
(00:36):
and incredible friends, NettieWinters, Austin Hoyle.
Gentlemen, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Oh, I'm good.
I'm real good I love being anincredible friend.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Absolutely, man, because you are an incredible
friend and we got incrediblefriends that help us make this
podcast possible Folks likeMississippi College, anderson
United Methodist Church, graceTemple Church, mississippi State
University, real ChristianFoundation, nissan, st Dominic's
(01:10):
Hospital, atmos Energy, regentsFoundation, brown Missionary
Baptist Church, christian LifeChurch, ms Doris Powell, mr
Robert Ward, ms Ann Winters.
Thank you all so much foreverything that you do.
It's because of what you dothat we are able to do what we
do.
And today, gentlemen, what weare doing is picking up in a
conversation that we startedjust a few weeks ago on image
bearing, bearing the image ofGod.
The scripture tells us inGenesis, chapter one, verse 26,.
Then God said let us make manin our image, after our likeness
(01:34):
, and let them have dominionover the fish of the sea and
over the birds of the heavensand over the livestock and over
all the earth and over everycreeping thing that creeps on
the earth.
So God created man in his ownimage, in the image of God.
He created him male and female.
He created them, nettie andAustin.
I believe this is one of theanchor scriptures in the Bible
(01:56):
as it relates to relationships,as it relates to how we are to
see one another in the world asit relates to how we are to
build civilizations, but also asto how civilizations crumble,
as to how nations are destroyed,as to how war breaks out and
conflict arises is either ourability to capture this truth
(02:22):
and embed this truth deeply inour hearts, or our inability to
capture it and our tendency tolose sight of it.
And so today, we spent some timein last episode talking about
the significance and meaning ofthe image of God, and we teased
out some challenges, but I wantto dig a little deeper into the
(02:43):
challenges.
Why is it so difficult for usto see one another as image
bearers, and what are theconsequences of not seeing one
another as image bearers in ourculture?
This is an important topic,especially in our current moment
, and so I'm excited to talk totwo very incredible and
(03:05):
intelligent men to help me makesense of it.
Nettie, when you think aboutthe current challenges that we
are faced with right now, whatis one challenge that stands out
to you as it relates to ourinability to see one another as
image bearers?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Because we're so popularized by what I think is
dehumanization of humankind, ifI can say it that way.
It's us against them.
It's polarized around politics,race or some other aspect of
our lives, and we see ourselves.
(03:41):
I guess the greatest challengewould be we see ourselves in our
own image.
We see ourselves as non-imagebearers of God because we judge
and label and classify and putpeople in categories or cliques
or clans, whatever the casemight be.
And so when we look at eachother, we're not looking for the
first of all, we're not lookingfor the image of God.
We're looking for the worst infolks, and most of the time we
(04:02):
accommodate them.
Of all, we're not looking forthe image of God, we're looking
for the worst in quotes, andmost of the time we accommodate
them.
That'd be, my observation, as Ifail you to recognize the image
of the Imago Dei of each other,in terms of making the image and
likeness of God.
I tell people many times,especially when I'm speaking, I
(04:23):
say, if you want to see theimage of God, just stand around
and look at each other.
You know, look in the mirror,you see the image of God, and
sometimes people go with an ahamoment or some other thing, but
most of the time we just we seehuman beings, and I guess as
human beings they would kind ofput them in a category, a class
of found in some way or another,rather than going back to God's
(04:46):
in, uh, in lightness, and thatwe're made image of the likeness
of God.
And so, with that being said,right.
So I believe that that withinus has the image and likeness of
God.
There is a DNA of relationship,there are DNA of of accepting
one another, receiving oneanother in the eyes of God, how
God has received us, how hecreated us, and so what's buried
(05:09):
within us is a desire, oradamant part of our being is to
be accepted, to be recognized asa fellow human being.
But at the same time, our DNAsays we must have relationship,
and many times we go aboutdeveloping our relationships in
(05:33):
different ways, but most timesit's not in the way that God
would have us be.
So God designed us to have arelationship with him, a
relationship with ourselves anda relationship with others, and
when either one of those are outof sync, it malfunctioned all
relationships, if I can put itthat way.
So, we have a response to whatGod has put in us, to respond to
(05:56):
him in the right way andrespond to ourselves in the
right not react but respond toourselves in the right way Then
we have a right relationshipwith each other and we can see
in others what God has put in usand in them in terms of this
image bearing of God.
And just be frank, when we seepeople acting, the way human
(06:16):
beings act at their works, wetend to categorize people, put
them in categories.
We just begin to uh think ofways of dehumanizing or
degrading, uh demoralizing folksin in in terms of our reaction
to that.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah, nettie, I, um, I, I definitely agree with, um,
everything that you said.
You said quite a bit thatstands out to me.
The ideal of us categorizing.
It feels like oftentimes weforget that our fundamental
(06:58):
identity is image bearers.
No-transcript.
(07:32):
We are professionals before weare pastors and preachers before
we are politicians.
We are image bearers, and if welose sight of that fundamental
reality that we belong to Godbefore, before any of those
other layered identities that wetend to focus on and pay a lot
more attention to, if we losesight of that fundamental
(07:55):
reality that before we belong toanybody and anyone else, we
belong to God, then we we setthe table for chaos, disorder,
division and dissension, becausein image bearing, not only do
we come to the truth and thereality that we belong to God,
which is primary, but in imagebearing we also come to the
(08:16):
truth and the reality that webelong to one another, because
we are fellow image bearers andso we belong to God.
He created us in his image andlikeness, but also he created us
in his image and likeness,ultimately, like you said,
nettie, to have relationshipwith him, with ourselves, but
also with one another and hiscreated order, his creation.
Those relationships right To doright by God, to do right in
(08:47):
terms of how we maintainourselves, to do right as it
relates to our fellow neighborand brothers around us.
And to do right by his createdorder and caretaking and keeping
, and, and, and, and andexercising dominion that he has
given us over it Right.
Let me come in, and I mentioneda quote, uh, during that,
(09:07):
during those final talks, thatstill just kind of it continues
to linger with me and resonatewith me, and that quote was from
mother theresa, and she said ifwe have no peace, if we have no
peace, it's because we haveforgotten that we belong to one
another.
And I think, I think she'sgetting at the heart of that
(09:29):
kind of fundamental imagebearing reality that's so hard
for us to keep, keep hold of andkeep a grasp of that, that when
we lose our sense of peace, itis oftentimes we lose it because
we have forgotten that webelong to God first and foremost
, but it is also because we haveforgotten that we belong to one
(09:49):
another.
We begin to create silos.
The camps, the identities thatwe label ourselves with become
barriers and anchors.
That keeps us, you know, kindof tied, tied down to the chaos,
so to speak.
And so, yeah, man, it's aboutremembering at our foundation
(10:11):
who we are and walking fully inthat identity before we walk in
any other identity that's madeavailable to us.
Not that any of those otheridentities are bad, but it's
just recognizing that, first andforemost, we're image bearers
and then letting all the otheridentities build on to that
(10:32):
identity.
Austin, when you think aboutsome of our challenges that
we're facing right now regardingthe ability to see one another
as image bearers, what standsout to you?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Well, I just I want to echo one thing and kind of
add you know, because I love howwe're digging around in the
first few chapters of Genesisright now, you know we have in
Genesis 3, as soon as sin entersthe world, you know, everything
kind of shifts right.
Adam and Eve they once hadperfect unity with one another
and I think it's the image ofperfect unity that's in the
Bible but they turn on eachother.
Adam blames Eve, eve blames theserpent, and Adam also blames
(11:06):
God for giving him a woman thatwould cause him to have problems
.
But their eyes have been opened, but not in the way that they
had hoped.
So they see through the lens ofshame, fear, self-preservation.
So division begins to take rootand it really just grows ever
since then.
So to the point where we nowlive in a culture that
(11:28):
constantly reinforces the samething you guys are talking about
.
Separation doesn't teach us tosee people as God's image bearer
.
It teaches us to see them asopponents to people to be.
You know, it tells us thatidentity is so wrapped up in our
ideologies, our politicalbeliefs, our social positions.
That identity is so wrapped upin our ideologies, our political
beliefs, our social positionstell us that whoever we happen
to disagree with are just wrong.
(11:50):
And not just wrong, butactually dangerous people,
dangerous people to beeradicated.
So you know, when you begin tosee other people as dangerous
people to be eradicated, whatdoes that do to you?
That makes you a dangerousperson to be eradicated as well.
And so the cycle begins tocontinue.
And that's where we are in oursociety.
(12:12):
That's where Europe was 100years ago in their society.
And the problem with that is weallow our ideology to take
priority over the gospel, allowour ideology to take priority
over the gospel, even though wemay use trappings of religious
(12:33):
language within how weconceptualize and how we bring
up.
You know how, whatever it is, wewant to navigate the world.
Oftentimes so much of our Cubanphilosophy is put into even our
presentation of what weunderstand sometimes to be the
gospel, to the point where italso has an ideological takeover
.
We see this happening on everyside of the ideological spectrum
(12:57):
.
It's a product and I thinkGenesis 3 is really clear in
showing it's a product of justbeing humans who are living in a
broken and in a fallen world.
So you have some voices in ourculture that say that if we
truly love others, we shouldnever challenge them, never call
(13:17):
out sin, never question moralor theological drift, never
stand for biblical truth, thatoveremphasis of compassion but
stripped of conviction andturning grace into just mere
tolerance of other people'sideas and living.
Jesus didn't do that.
He loves sinners and he calledthem to repent right.
(13:40):
He called the broken and he themto to sin no more.
He showed mercy and he declaredhimself as the only way to the
father.
You know, and if it, and reallyat the same time.
Also, there are all thesevoices that have just weaponized
truth, without grace, right.
They use scripture as a toolfor condemnation rather than
(14:02):
redemption.
They don't look at their ownplank in their own eye.
They treat those outside oftheir group, of their ideology,
of their camps, with contempt,irredeemable people who are
dangerous.
They should be eradicated.
I see this on every side.
I see this on every side.
(14:22):
It's not a problem with oneside of the ideological spectrum
versus the other.
Jesus never really did thatstuff either.
He caught out sin, but he alsonever lost the sight of the
person.
He had very strong words forthe pharisees, but, but he also
(14:47):
spoke to nicodemus with, withkindness and talk about, talk to
him about the new birth, uh,that he was going to have to
have.
Uh, you know, he warned againstthe, uh, the hypocrisy, but he
also wept over, uh, overjerusalem, uh, as, uh, as, as,
as he saw then them fallingfurther and further away from
God and away from what theytruly could be and actualizing
(15:10):
who God intended and wanted forthem to be, to the point where
God had to send his son.
So the challenge is, you know,how are we going to allow all
these divisions of the world todefine us?
You know, are we going to tryto choose to live as people who
really do listen to Genesis 1,26 and 27?
People who really do see theimage of God in others, even
(15:34):
when we disagree?
You know, I've seen people turnjust radically their faces and
the look in their eyes justbecome almost erratic when
they're presented with someonewho might have just the
slightest bit of disagreementwith them on this or that issue
(15:59):
and it's almost like it's adesperation I've seen in
people's eyes sometimes.
I mean it's truly frighteningthat becomes the fundamental
image right.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
That becomes the fundamental identity is my
political identity, my culturalidentity.
It becomes the identity or itbecomes the lens that I see all
of life through.
And so that's why, when someonecomes against that identity and
stands for something else orhas a different position or a
different policy understanding,then all of a sudden I see that
(16:32):
person as the person like yousaid, to be eradicated.
And of course, we're fresh offof King holiday, king birthday,
mlk, junior Dr King.
Ok, junior Dr King.
But one of the things that DrKing oftentimes stressed is the
power of hate to transform notto hate it, but to transform the
(16:53):
hater.
The hater becomes deformed andde-imaged, imaged, and so we
lose our identity when we beginto make enemies of people that
are not fitting these particularidentities that we've raised
above the identity that we haveas image bearers and the
(17:16):
identity that we have in Christ.
And so it becomes, like yousaid, we see someone as a danger
and then, as we see that personas a danger, now we're saying
now we're actually becoming adanger as well because we are
being changed Right and over andover again.
I see, you see this happeningin our culture we're getting
(17:36):
meaner, more aggressive, moreshort tempered, less willing to
negotiate, less willing to havegive and take.
There's just an instant.
Oh, that's the way you think.
Okay, you're not somebody thatI can have a conversation with.
(17:57):
Not only are you not somebodythat I can have a conversation
with, you are someone that Imust demolish.
That I must remove that, I mustget out of the way.
That I must demolish that, Imust remove that, I must get out
of the way.
And it's that kind of reshapingand reforming that's happening
in us, because we've lost senseof our primary identity.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Exactly Now.
There are people who truly aredangerous in this world.
Yes, 100%.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
And in church settings, whetherthey're going to be dangerous
emotionally and spiritually oractually physically, you know
you have to.
As church leaders, we have toapproach it in different ways.
I just wanted to throw out alittle.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
There are wolves trying to devour the sheep.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Exactly, exactly, there is that.
So sometimes we do have tostand firmly in situations, 100%
, you know, even if it appearsthat we're standing against
somebody, but that's, that'sjust.
Uh, that's the product ofleadership.
Living in a fallen world, morethan more than I think, uh, we,
(18:58):
we should be looking at, youknow, eradicating someone, so to
speak.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, austin, you bring that
point up that there are evilpeople in the world, but many
times and oftentimes, weperceive people that are not
evil, that are not our enemy, asthreats or as danger and we
treat them as though they're uhenemies and they're threat as as
(19:26):
uh evil people or whatever else.
You know, regardless of thehuman behavior, we're still
created as human beings, wild,un-wild, tame, untamed.
However you want to put that,we're still in the image and
likeness of God.
As you all were talking, I wasthinking about Paul in Romans 12
.
Paul says I beseech you,brethren.
(19:47):
Therefore, because of thecreated image and likeness of
God, god has created us in hisimage and likeness.
He has shared his grace andmercy with us.
He had been kind unto us evenwhen we were his enemy.
He demonstrated his love to usand he said therefore, present
your bodies as if it as livingin holy sacrifice, which is a
(20:09):
sacrifice for God.
Once you make that presentation,once you submit and surrender
your life to God, then you oughtto see people as they ought to
be seen, because his next versesays don't be conformed to all
the stuff that we're talkingabout.
Right, he said, be transformedby what you know, since you have
given yourself to God.
(20:29):
Now we've got to transform yourthinking.
You've got to change yourthinking, you've got to change
your thought process, you've gotto change how you see others.
But, more importantly, he said,do not think more of yourself
than you ought to think, and youshouldn't think less of
yourself than you ought to thinkand you shouldn't think less of
yourself than you ought tothink.
So the challenge again, brian,as your original question, the
(20:51):
challenge again is how I seemyself, or how I see others.
I see myself as being superioror inferior.
Then I got a complex and I'm indepressed or I don't have the
right kind of sense about myself.
(21:12):
Therefore, I feel insecure, Ifeel inferior.
I feel all these things becauseI see myself as being less than
what God actually created me tobe.
So, therefore, for me to thinkmore of myself, I got to think
less of you, yeah, or if I thinkless of myself, I got to think
(21:32):
more of you.
So it just messes things up interms of how we bear witness or
bear image of God, how wereflect that image of God.
It all depends on how my mindis operating at the moment in
terms of how I see myself.
I can get my image of myselfcorrectly in the sight of God,
not thinking more of what I am,but thinking, having a right
(21:56):
balance of myself.
I have value, you have value,we all have value.
I have to look at that.
I don't have value based onwhat God has decided, not based
on my standards of wealth,economics, race, political
authority, political power, allthese things that we take
(22:16):
athletes and put them in acategory that they don't need to
be in because they make allthis money.
We think they're some kind ofhero and they could be.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Identity issue.
Remember that there it is rightthere.
Another identity issue where weequate money, finances, riches
as a primary identity versusimage bear.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.
Sorry to disrupt.
Yeah, I was just thinking about.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
you know, when Charles Buckler was playing
basketball, this mother and soncame up to him and and she was
talking about how he was the thekid's role model.
And they started talking andCharles Barkley the interim
saying ain't nobody's role model, I'm just a guy running down
the court throwing a ballthrough a hoop.
I'm not no role model.
You know, in essence, you knowpeople would laugh at that, but
(23:03):
in essence that was true.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
He said there are many people out there that can
be doing the same thing I'mdoing.
Why are you escalating me tosome level of intellect or
intelligence or some achievementthat I'm not any more or less
than anyone else I'm talkingabout?
In my estimation, that's whathe's stating.
I'm no role model.
I mess up just like everybodyelse.
I do stupid things likeeverybody else.
(23:27):
I do stupid things likeeverybody else.
And he went on to prove that.
In fact, some people say everytime, every time you open his
mouth, he proves that you know.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Absolutely Search Hallmark.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
You know I don't want to pick on him, but you know
there are people that think, asall three of us have been
pastors, you two are pastors nowthere are people that think of
pastors in a way.
Like you know, I used to have akid who used to come to church
and say, oh, that's Jesus, mama,I'm like golly, you're Jesus,
(24:03):
you know.
And so we represent images thatpeople kind of can I say this
we represent an image thatpeople created in their own mind
Because we're pastors, we'resupposed to be super human or
something.
I don't know what theexpectation is.
It depends on the person I'mtalking to many a times and what
(24:25):
they expect the pastor to be.
And people address me sometimesand I say just call me Nettie.
Oh, no, no, no, no, you thepastor, I got to call you pastor
.
I got to.
You know, you ain't got to callme anything.
You know.
Sometimes I just say just youcall me whatever you want to,
just don't forget to call me toeat Right.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, nettie, I think too, you know
we're talking about challengesthat we're faced with in terms
of the ability to see imagebarriers.
Well, I think one of thosegreat challenges, too, is also
hurry.
We live in this kind ofconstant movement, constant go,
(25:03):
rush, rush, rush, rush, rushonto the next, onto the next,
onto the next challenge, ontothe next task, onto the next
goal, and what that does is itkeeps us from slowing down and
seeing each other and justpausing.
I love what happens in Luke,chapter six, when Jesus is about
(25:25):
to heal the man with the witherhand, and the Pharisees are
there doing what they do withJesus, which is looking for
something to trip him up orlooking for a reason to say that
he is, he is not, he is not theguy, and so they are looking to
see if he's going to going toheal this man with their hand on
(25:47):
the Sabbath and Jesus before heheals the man Not on the
Sabbath With that slender sack.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I'm sorry, go ahead.
I couldn't just tell you Goahead.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
So they're looking to see if he's going to heal that
man.
But interesting enough, beforehe heals him, he has the man
stand up in front of thePharisees and he tells them to
look at him.
And basically he wants them tosee the man and says what would
you have me do?
Look at this man, look at him,look at his challenge, look at
(26:20):
his struggle, look at his lackor inability to experience true
rest.
And here he is in front of me,a man that can give him the God
that can give him true rest.
And you're trying to withholdtrue rest from him because it's
on the day of rest.
But I love what he does beforehe goes.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
All you need to rest is a day of rest.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Right, you're withholding true rest from a man
because you say, no, you can'tdo that on the day of rest and
this man needs true rest, he'sin front of the Lord of the rest
, but he can't get rest becauseyou don't want us to do this on
the day of rest.
Yeah, and so.
What's interesting, though, ishe says just look at him, look
at the man, and I think thereare times in which we don't look
(27:07):
at each other.
We're just in a constant stateof hurry, blowing by people one
after the other, and we lose themarvel of image bearers because
we lose the ability to stop andpause.
You know one of the things whenyou go to New York City, there
are two things that people aregoing to typically consider New
(27:33):
York City to be known for Onehurry, constant pace, constant
movement, hustle and bustletraffic.
But the second thing rudeness.
So they see, OK, if I'm goingto be in New York City, they're
going to be moving, moving,moving, moving, moving.
But also, because they'removing, moving, moving, moving,
(27:57):
moving, I shouldn't expect awhole lot of greeting, I
shouldn't expect a whole lot ofpausing and stopping to hear
people ask me how my day is.
I probably should expect peopleto be on the edge or blowing
their horn if I'm not movingquick enough for them and all of
this kind of stuff.
So those two things, what youlearn very much, run together.
Hurry and disregard Austin,where there is a increase in
(28:24):
hurry, increase in goals andachievement, and accomplishment
and success and all of thosethings, if we're not careful
they become primary and whenthey become primary, the image
bearing becomes secondary Beforethe Internet.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
You know, before the Internet and online stuff, media
and all of that, the digitalspace and all of that, we just
call it the rat race.
Yes, sir, you know, and youknow.
If, in fact, somebody in NewYork asks you how your day was,
don't expect for them to waitand listen.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
You know like and if they said let's do lunch.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Don't expect for them to follow up with it.
You know so, but that's aminiature of our culture and,
unfortunately, Brian, it's theminiature of the church more
than anything else.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, yeah, let me make sure if we got any New York
friends listening, let me makesure that I share that.
This is not just your dilemmanow.
This is all of our dilemma.
This is a cultural dilemma.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
That would be the dilemma in Beechburg Mississippi
.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Even Beechburg Mississippi.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
What about Tyler Towns?
Speaker 4 (29:41):
He's definitely saying, yeah, new York really is
that way, but we all are too.
So don't worry, new York, Ilove it, I love it.
I'm hearing you guys talkingabout the rush.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that we
have such an externally basedreligion, but most of the time
is that we don't internalize itwell enough.
The prophet Amos, really, Ithink, speaks to that
significantly, because thepeople of Israel were absolutely
meticulous about theirreligious observances, their
feasts, their sacrifices.
But you know, in Amos 5, 21through 24, he says I hate, I
(30:15):
despise your feasts, I take nodelight in your solemn
assemblies.
Even though you offer me burntofferings and grain offerings, I
will not accept them.
But let justice roll down likewaters and rise this like an
ever-flowing stream.
He's talking about allowingjust the current of God's mercy
and grace to run through us, notfor us to chase some type of
(30:39):
external goal or ambition.
That really leaves us incapableof having even the kindest
conversation with those whosimply ask us how our day is.
You know, we're so focused onthis rush, this ritual,
oftentimes, and even in ourexternal lives.
Isn't that the?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Good Samaritan story too in some ways.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I want to stop you when you
bring up the word Good Samaritan.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
The Bible says a certain Samaritan and not Good
Samaritan.
The Bible says a certainSamaritan and not Good Samaritan
.
And when you listen, now listen, and this is right in line with
I'm glad you brought that, thisright in line with what we're
talking about, because we, ashuman beings, have put captions
in our books and Bibles aboutthe Good Samaritan, but the
(31:24):
Bible talks about a certainSamaritan, so this Good
Samaritan.
But the Bible talks about acertain Samaritan, so this Good
Samaritan?
When I think about the GoodSamaritan, sir, I think, well,
all other Samaritans are bad.
Mm-hmm, isn't that the way wedo things?
Are these excuse me, but thisyou fill in the blank.
This is good folks.
Put your adjective on folks,whether it be white folks, black
(31:46):
folks, chinese, whatever.
This is one of the good ones.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
You know Well, isn't that like the certain Samaritan
Dr Hoyle?
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Well, how about?
Maybe I don't know, but hey,how about I go around and say,
hey, hey, don't worry, I'm oneof the good ones.
Yeah, does that work?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Brian, that does that work.
Yeah, right, does that work.
Maybe, maybe they'll changetheir mind, you know can I?
Say that no, no, you can't sayuh, no, I don't think it works.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
I don't think that works but no, I love it, but
that's what we do and so he saidthe good samaritan.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
All other samaritans are bad samaritan.
But the bible says talk about acertain Samaritan and describe
that.
And so I've been complimentedand insulted in the same
sentence.
Nitty, you're different.
Okay, that mean I'm not likethe rest.
That mean that.
What do that mean?
(32:43):
And why?
Well, you different, Nettie.
What do that mean?
You know, as you know, we havethe days of dialogue.
I don't have people sitting atthe table with me and look at me
, but, Nettie, you different.
I'm going to like different.
Who are you talking about?
I'm different from?
What are you doing you talkingabout?
All black folks are bad and youjust have to be one of the good
ones.
And I've, I've met.
(33:04):
Well, you're different, I knowyou Well.
Maybe, if you get to know therest of the folks, maybe they
would be different too.
And what you, whatever?
Whatever that means I'm talkingabout, that's a.
For me, that's a compliment andan insult all in the same
sentence.
Right, right, yeah, but but?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
but but yeah, I mean, I agree with that, I agree, we
button, button, but but no, no,no, no, no, no.
A certain samaritan, a certainsamaritan, austin, remember not.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
What's that now?
We're your incredible friend,remember.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
You don't have to say that's right, that's right, but
I was about to ask y'all whenwe first did that do y'all
y'all's wives also call you, mrincredible, or is that just me?
Speaker 1 (33:47):
That's just you.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Austin, that's just you.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
That's my side.
But no, seriously, guys, I mean, when you talk about this ideal
, of this hurry, you see it,even as you mentioned Austin.
You see it in Scripture, wherethere is a commitment to law
keeping.
I mean, in fact, that's whatyou know.
You see that in Luke 6, evenwhere there is the Pharisees,
(34:09):
who have their laws andordinances that they're holding
fast to, and because of thatthey can't see this wounded man
in need of rest to ensure thathe gets rest.
And the same thing with peoplethat are rushing to kingdom duty
or rushing to temple duty, andin the midst of rushing to
temple duty and rushing to servequote unquote, serve they miss
(34:31):
those quiet and slower momentswhere God has given us to serve
and to see, to see one another.
I think seeing one another manis just way more difficult than
we tend to acknowledge right now.
It's becoming more and moredifficult to pause, to stop and
(34:53):
to see, and that's one thingI've been deeply challenged with
here in the last several monthsis to see, is to stop, is to
pause and to see.
And I realize even in myselfI'm not sure if this is
something that resonates withyou guys, but I realize that the
(35:13):
more hurried I am, the lesscapacity I hold to see.
It just seems to be a regularrecurrence and, to be honest
with you, being really personalright now, it starts even in my
own house, right, being able tosee my spouse and being able to
see my children, see my boys,see my sons.
(35:35):
It starts right here.
When I get into the hustle andbustle, they're typically the
first people that I lose sightof, and and it just continues to
build and compound on top ofthat.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I don't know, so I believe, go ahead, jump in there
no, I'm gonna say I don't knowabout in your household, but my
wife's the first one to pointthat out to me.
You know you also.
She never called me MrIncredible, but I referred to
her as God's advisor.
Yeah, but she's urgent, shegives counsel to God, and so
(36:09):
when I say that, it's likeyou've got to be kidding me, you
know she looks at me with that.
That's not a compliment.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Hey guys, we're well past a half hour into this
podcast.
I want to put a bow on it.
Let me see if I can get youguys to offer our listening
audience.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
As long as the bow is purple, man, we're good.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Well, let me see if I can get you guys with a purple
bow to offer our listeningaudience as any counsel on ways
in which they can live a lifethat is recognizing the image
bearing nature that exists inall of us, seeing one another as
(36:55):
image bearers.
Give me just some practical,one practical step that they can
take in doing that.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Well, you know, this is a practical step, but most of
the time we don't understand it.
You know, the Bible says treatpeople as you want to be treated
, love each other and do thosethings.
I think in order for this tohappen, we got to be very
intentional about seeing peopleas God sees them.
(37:25):
I don't, you know, and that's.
I don't want that to sound likea cliche statement, but most
times it gets included incliches like well, just see
people like God, sam.
Well, how do you do that?
You do that through love,humility and a biblical
perspective of others in termsof that.
(37:48):
So how do I say this, brian?
You said we don't see peoplethat way.
Part of the problem is seeing.
We see people through the lensof the view that we see as we
see.
You would talk about New York,vicksburg, other places.
We got that image of how itlooks and whether have we
(38:13):
actually gone there and reallyexperienced?
I've been to New York severaltimes.
I've never been treated.
I've never been.
How do I say this?
No one has treated me rude.
I'm going to say Sure, I've hadpeople to surround and really
talk to me and treat me as adecent person and I really enjoy
(38:34):
being in New York.
I remember going there thefirst time and the guy went out
his way to show me the baseballpark that my dad wanted to see
and Statue of Liberty and otherthings.
They personally did that thatguy had time, eddie, yeah, and
so he was probably fromMississippi, but anyway.
So we got to see each other asGod sees us and reflect that
(39:03):
image from ourselves first andthen to others.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, Austin give me one practical takeaway that
people can leave this podcastepisode with in terms of going
forward to recognize the imageof God in others.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I said, be doers, not just knowers, and be doers and
beers.
So you love in action, not justin words.
You know, james 2.15.16 says Ifa brother or sister is poorly
clothed or lacking in daily foodand one of you say to them Go
in peace, be warmed and filled,without giving them the things
(39:40):
needed for the body, what goodis that?
You know?
So if we truly believe in theworth of every person, it
challenges us how we treat them,how we speak to them, how we
advocate for them, how we showup when they're in need.
Really, because at the end ofthe day, this isn't just about
thinking differently, it's aboutliving differently, it's about
being the people God has calledus to do.
(40:02):
And Jesus didn't just seepeople.
I mean, he saw them, but hedidn't just see them, he also
moved towards them, he gave thema way forward, he met them
where they were, he loved them,even when they were unlovable,
and then he eventually gave themthe path towards redemption.
And I just think he calls us todo the same.
(40:23):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Redemptive love is so important that we live it out
Amen.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Amen.
Christ is the ultimate examplein this, in terms of he saw us
and he acted towards us, john3.16,.
God so loved that he gave hisonly begotten son, and we see
clear examples of that allthroughout scripture.
The sacrificial, selfless,humble, compassionate love that
(40:52):
we see over and over again Jesusdemonstrating towards us is the
same love that he calls us todemonstrate towards others.
A new commandment I give youlove one another as I have loved
you, and so also to your point.
The ability to recognize oneanother as image bearers doesn't
end and doesn't stop with justrecognition, but it, but it.
(41:17):
But it continues through action, it continues through good
works, and it's in those goodworks that men and women get a
chance to see glimpses of ourFather in heaven and give glory
and thanks and praise to him.
And so, listening audience, weappreciate you guys listening to
us on today and we hope thatthere was something important or
something convicting orcompelling that was shared.
(41:39):
We want to invite you tocontinue to listen to the Living
Reconciled podcast.
You to continue to listen tothe Living Reconciled podcast.
You can do that by subscribingto any podcast or using any
podcast directory, using anypodcast app, searching on Living
Reconciled and you should findus.
We are grateful, and thankfulalso for all the contributions
and support that is made toLiving Reconciled but that is
(42:01):
made to Mission Mississippi.
We could always use your helpand your support and investment.
If you would like to contributeto the work of Mission
Mississippi, you can do so byvisiting missionmississippiorg,
find us on Facebook, instagram,social media.
We would love to chat with you,get your feedback on how we can
continue to serve our state andour world as it relates to the
(42:24):
work of reconciliation.
I'm Brian Crawford, with myincredible friends Nettie
Winters, austin Hoyle, signingoff saying God bless, god bless,
god bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
(42:56):
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
I am your host, Brian Crawford,with my co-host and very good
(00:36):
and incredible friends, NettieWinters, Austin Hoyle.
Gentlemen, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Oh, I'm good.
I'm real good I love being anincredible friend.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Absolutely, man, because you are an incredible
friend and we got incrediblefriends that help us make this
podcast possible Folks likeMississippi College, anderson
United Methodist Church, graceTemple Church, mississippi State
University, real ChristianFoundation, nissan, st Dominic's
(01:10):
Hospital, atmos Energy, regentsFoundation, brown Missionary
Baptist Church, christian LifeChurch, ms Doris Powell, mr
Robert Ward, ms Ann Winters.
Thank you all so much foreverything that you do.
It's because of what you dothat we are able to do what we
do.
And today, gentlemen, what weare doing is picking up in a
conversation that we startedjust a few weeks ago on image
bearing, bearing the image ofGod.
The scripture tells us inGenesis, chapter one, verse 26,.
Then God said let us make manin our image, after our likeness
(01:34):
, and let them have dominionover the fish of the sea and
over the birds of the heavensand over the livestock and over
all the earth and over everycreeping thing that creeps on
the earth.
So God created man in his ownimage, in the image of God.
He created him male and female.
He created them, nettie andAustin.
I believe this is one of theanchor scriptures in the Bible
(01:56):
as it relates to relationships,as it relates to how we are to
see one another in the world asit relates to how we are to
build civilizations, but also asto how civilizations crumble,
as to how nations are destroyed,as to how war breaks out and
conflict arises is either ourability to capture this truth
(02:22):
and embed this truth deeply inour hearts, or our inability to
capture it and our tendency tolose sight of it.
And so today, we spent some timein last episode talking about
the significance and meaning ofthe image of God, and we teased
out some challenges, but I wantto dig a little deeper into the
(02:43):
challenges.
Why is it so difficult for usto see one another as image
bearers, and what are theconsequences of not seeing one
another as image bearers in ourculture?
This is an important topic,especially in our current moment
, and so I'm excited to talk totwo very incredible and
(03:05):
intelligent men to help me makesense of it.
Nettie, when you think aboutthe current challenges that we
are faced with right now, whatis one challenge that stands out
to you as it relates to ourinability to see one another as
image bearers?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Because we're so popularized by what I think is
dehumanization of humankind, ifI can say it that way.
It's us against them.
It's polarized around politics,race or some other aspect of
our lives, and we see ourselves.
(03:41):
I guess the greatest challengewould be we see ourselves in our
own image.
We see ourselves as non-imagebearers of God because we judge
and label and classify and putpeople in categories or cliques
or clans, whatever the casemight be.
And so when we look at eachother, we're not looking for the
first of all, we're not lookingfor the image of God.
We're looking for the worst infolks, and most of the time we
(04:02):
accommodate them.
Of all, we're not looking forthe image of God, we're looking
for the worst in quotes, andmost of the time we accommodate
them.
That'd be, my observation, as Ifail you to recognize the image
of the Imago Dei of each other,in terms of making the image and
likeness of God.
I tell people many times,especially when I'm speaking, I
(04:23):
say, if you want to see theimage of God, just stand around
and look at each other.
You know, look in the mirror,you see the image of God, and
sometimes people go with an ahamoment or some other thing, but
most of the time we just we seehuman beings, and I guess as
human beings they would kind ofput them in a category, a class
of found in some way or another,rather than going back to God's
(04:46):
in, uh, in lightness, and thatwe're made image of the likeness
of God.
And so, with that being said,right.
So I believe that that withinus has the image and likeness of
God.
There is a DNA of relationship,there are DNA of of accepting
one another, receiving oneanother in the eyes of God, how
God has received us, how hecreated us, and so what's buried
(05:09):
within us is a desire, oradamant part of our being is to
be accepted, to be recognized asa fellow human being.
But at the same time, our DNAsays we must have relationship,
and many times we go aboutdeveloping our relationships in
(05:33):
different ways, but most timesit's not in the way that God
would have us be.
So God designed us to have arelationship with him, a
relationship with ourselves anda relationship with others, and
when either one of those are outof sync, it malfunctioned all
relationships, if I can put itthat way.
So, we have a response to whatGod has put in us, to respond to
(05:56):
him in the right way andrespond to ourselves in the
right not react but respond toourselves in the right way Then
we have a right relationshipwith each other and we can see
in others what God has put in usand in them in terms of this
image bearing of God.
And just be frank, when we seepeople acting, the way human
(06:16):
beings act at their works, wetend to categorize people, put
them in categories.
We just begin to uh think ofways of dehumanizing or
degrading, uh demoralizing folksin in in terms of our reaction
to that.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah, nettie, I, um, I, I definitely agree with, um,
everything that you said.
You said quite a bit thatstands out to me.
The ideal of us categorizing.
It feels like oftentimes weforget that our fundamental
(06:58):
identity is image bearers.
No-transcript.
(07:32):
We are professionals before weare pastors and preachers before
we are politicians.
We are image bearers, and if welose sight of that fundamental
reality that we belong to Godbefore, before any of those
other layered identities that wetend to focus on and pay a lot
more attention to, if we losesight of that fundamental
(07:55):
reality that before we belong toanybody and anyone else, we
belong to God, then we we setthe table for chaos, disorder,
division and dissension, becausein image bearing, not only do
we come to the truth and thereality that we belong to God,
which is primary, but in imagebearing we also come to the
(08:16):
truth and the reality that webelong to one another, because
we are fellow image bearers andso we belong to God.
He created us in his image andlikeness, but also he created us
in his image and likeness,ultimately, like you said,
nettie, to have relationshipwith him, with ourselves, but
also with one another and hiscreated order, his creation.
Those relationships right To doright by God, to do right in
(08:47):
terms of how we maintainourselves, to do right as it
relates to our fellow neighborand brothers around us.
And to do right by his createdorder and caretaking and keeping
, and, and, and, and andexercising dominion that he has
given us over it Right.
Let me come in, and I mentioneda quote, uh, during that,
(09:07):
during those final talks, thatstill just kind of it continues
to linger with me and resonatewith me, and that quote was from
mother theresa, and she said ifwe have no peace, if we have no
peace, it's because we haveforgotten that we belong to one
another.
And I think, I think she'sgetting at the heart of that
(09:29):
kind of fundamental imagebearing reality that's so hard
for us to keep, keep hold of andkeep a grasp of that, that when
we lose our sense of peace, itis oftentimes we lose it because
we have forgotten that webelong to God first and foremost
, but it is also because we haveforgotten that we belong to one
(09:49):
another.
We begin to create silos.
The camps, the identities thatwe label ourselves with become
barriers and anchors.
That keeps us, you know, kindof tied, tied down to the chaos,
so to speak.
And so, yeah, man, it's aboutremembering at our foundation
(10:11):
who we are and walking fully inthat identity before we walk in
any other identity that's madeavailable to us.
Not that any of those otheridentities are bad, but it's
just recognizing that, first andforemost, we're image bearers
and then letting all the otheridentities build on to that
(10:32):
identity.
Austin, when you think aboutsome of our challenges that
we're facing right now regardingthe ability to see one another
as image bearers, what standsout to you?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Well, I just I want to echo one thing and kind of
add you know, because I love howwe're digging around in the
first few chapters of Genesisright now, you know we have in
Genesis 3, as soon as sin entersthe world, you know, everything
kind of shifts right.
Adam and Eve they once hadperfect unity with one another
and I think it's the image ofperfect unity that's in the
Bible but they turn on eachother.
Adam blames Eve, eve blames theserpent, and Adam also blames
(11:06):
God for giving him a woman thatwould cause him to have problems
.
But their eyes have been opened, but not in the way that they
had hoped.
So they see through the lens ofshame, fear, self-preservation.
So division begins to take rootand it really just grows ever
since then.
So to the point where we nowlive in a culture that
(11:28):
constantly reinforces the samething you guys are talking about
.
Separation doesn't teach us tosee people as God's image bearer
.
It teaches us to see them asopponents to people to be.
You know, it tells us thatidentity is so wrapped up in our
ideologies, our politicalbeliefs, our social positions.
That identity is so wrapped upin our ideologies, our political
beliefs, our social positionstell us that whoever we happen
to disagree with are just wrong.
(11:50):
And not just wrong, butactually dangerous people,
dangerous people to beeradicated.
So you know, when you begin tosee other people as dangerous
people to be eradicated, whatdoes that do to you?
That makes you a dangerousperson to be eradicated as well.
And so the cycle begins tocontinue.
And that's where we are in oursociety.
(12:12):
That's where Europe was 100years ago in their society.
And the problem with that is weallow our ideology to take
priority over the gospel, allowour ideology to take priority
over the gospel, even though wemay use trappings of religious
(12:33):
language within how weconceptualize and how we bring
up.
You know how, whatever it is, wewant to navigate the world.
Oftentimes so much of our Cubanphilosophy is put into even our
presentation of what weunderstand sometimes to be the
gospel, to the point where italso has an ideological takeover
.
We see this happening on everyside of the ideological spectrum
(12:57):
.
It's a product and I thinkGenesis 3 is really clear in
showing it's a product of justbeing humans who are living in a
broken and in a fallen world.
So you have some voices in ourculture that say that if we
truly love others, we shouldnever challenge them, never call
(13:17):
out sin, never question moralor theological drift, never
stand for biblical truth, thatoveremphasis of compassion but
stripped of conviction andturning grace into just mere
tolerance of other people'sideas and living.
Jesus didn't do that.
He loves sinners and he calledthem to repent right.
(13:40):
He called the broken and he themto to sin no more.
He showed mercy and he declaredhimself as the only way to the
father.
You know, and if it, and reallyat the same time.
Also, there are all thesevoices that have just weaponized
truth, without grace, right.
They use scripture as a toolfor condemnation rather than
(14:02):
redemption.
They don't look at their ownplank in their own eye.
They treat those outside oftheir group, of their ideology,
of their camps, with contempt,irredeemable people who are
dangerous.
They should be eradicated.
I see this on every side.
I see this on every side.
(14:22):
It's not a problem with oneside of the ideological spectrum
versus the other.
Jesus never really did thatstuff either.
He caught out sin, but he alsonever lost the sight of the
person.
He had very strong words forthe pharisees, but, but he also
(14:47):
spoke to nicodemus with, withkindness and talk about, talk to
him about the new birth, uh,that he was going to have to
have.
Uh, you know, he warned againstthe, uh, the hypocrisy, but he
also wept over, uh, overjerusalem, uh, as, uh, as, as,
as he saw then them fallingfurther and further away from
God and away from what theytruly could be and actualizing
(15:10):
who God intended and wanted forthem to be, to the point where
God had to send his son.
So the challenge is, you know,how are we going to allow all
these divisions of the world todefine us?
You know, are we going to tryto choose to live as people who
really do listen to Genesis 1,26 and 27?
People who really do see theimage of God in others, even
(15:34):
when we disagree?
You know, I've seen people turnjust radically their faces and
the look in their eyes justbecome almost erratic when
they're presented with someonewho might have just the
slightest bit of disagreementwith them on this or that issue
(15:59):
and it's almost like it's adesperation I've seen in
people's eyes sometimes.
I mean it's truly frighteningthat becomes the fundamental
image right.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
That becomes the fundamental identity is my
political identity, my culturalidentity.
It becomes the identity or itbecomes the lens that I see all
of life through.
And so that's why, when someonecomes against that identity and
stands for something else orhas a different position or a
different policy understanding,then all of a sudden I see that
(16:32):
person as the person like yousaid, to be eradicated.
And of course, we're fresh offof King holiday, king birthday,
mlk, junior Dr King.
Ok, junior Dr King.
But one of the things that DrKing oftentimes stressed is the
power of hate to transform notto hate it, but to transform the
(16:53):
hater.
The hater becomes deformed andde-imaged, imaged, and so we
lose our identity when we beginto make enemies of people that
are not fitting these particularidentities that we've raised
above the identity that we haveas image bearers and the
(17:16):
identity that we have in Christ.
And so it becomes, like yousaid, we see someone as a danger
and then, as we see that personas a danger, now we're saying
now we're actually becoming adanger as well because we are
being changed Right and over andover again.
I see, you see this happeningin our culture we're getting
(17:36):
meaner, more aggressive, moreshort tempered, less willing to
negotiate, less willing to havegive and take.
There's just an instant.
Oh, that's the way you think.
Okay, you're not somebody thatI can have a conversation with.
(17:57):
Not only are you not somebodythat I can have a conversation
with, you are someone that Imust demolish.
That I must remove that, I mustget out of the way.
That I must demolish that, Imust remove that, I must get out
of the way.
And it's that kind of reshapingand reforming that's happening
in us, because we've lost senseof our primary identity.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Exactly Now.
There are people who truly aredangerous in this world.
Yes, 100%.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
And in church settings, whetherthey're going to be dangerous
emotionally and spiritually oractually physically, you know
you have to.
As church leaders, we have toapproach it in different ways.
I just wanted to throw out alittle.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
There are wolves trying to devour the sheep.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Exactly, exactly, there is that.
So sometimes we do have tostand firmly in situations, 100%
, you know, even if it appearsthat we're standing against
somebody, but that's, that'sjust.
Uh, that's the product ofleadership.
Living in a fallen world, morethan more than I think, uh, we,
(18:58):
we should be looking at, youknow, eradicating someone, so to
speak.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, austin, you bring that
point up that there are evilpeople in the world, but many
times and oftentimes, weperceive people that are not
evil, that are not our enemy, asthreats or as danger and we
treat them as though they're uhenemies and they're threat as as
(19:26):
uh evil people or whatever else.
You know, regardless of thehuman behavior, we're still
created as human beings, wild,un-wild, tame, untamed.
However you want to put that,we're still in the image and
likeness of God.
As you all were talking, I wasthinking about Paul in Romans 12
.
Paul says I beseech you,brethren.
(19:47):
Therefore, because of thecreated image and likeness of
God, god has created us in hisimage and likeness.
He has shared his grace andmercy with us.
He had been kind unto us evenwhen we were his enemy.
He demonstrated his love to usand he said therefore, present
your bodies as if it as livingin holy sacrifice, which is a
(20:09):
sacrifice for God.
Once you make that presentation,once you submit and surrender
your life to God, then you oughtto see people as they ought to
be seen, because his next versesays don't be conformed to all
the stuff that we're talkingabout.
Right, he said, be transformedby what you know, since you have
given yourself to God.
(20:29):
Now we've got to transform yourthinking.
You've got to change yourthinking, you've got to change
your thought process, you've gotto change how you see others.
But, more importantly, he said,do not think more of yourself
than you ought to think, and youshouldn't think less of
yourself than you ought to thinkand you shouldn't think less of
yourself than you ought tothink.
So the challenge again, brian,as your original question, the
(20:51):
challenge again is how I seemyself, or how I see others.
I see myself as being superioror inferior.
Then I got a complex and I'm indepressed or I don't have the
right kind of sense about myself.
(21:12):
Therefore, I feel insecure, Ifeel inferior.
I feel all these things becauseI see myself as being less than
what God actually created me tobe.
So, therefore, for me to thinkmore of myself, I got to think
less of you, yeah, or if I thinkless of myself, I got to think
(21:32):
more of you.
So it just messes things up interms of how we bear witness or
bear image of God, how wereflect that image of God.
It all depends on how my mindis operating at the moment in
terms of how I see myself.
I can get my image of myselfcorrectly in the sight of God,
not thinking more of what I am,but thinking, having a right
(21:56):
balance of myself.
I have value, you have value,we all have value.
I have to look at that.
I don't have value based onwhat God has decided, not based
on my standards of wealth,economics, race, political
authority, political power, allthese things that we take
(22:16):
athletes and put them in acategory that they don't need to
be in because they make allthis money.
We think they're some kind ofhero and they could be.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Identity issue.
Remember that there it is rightthere.
Another identity issue where weequate money, finances, riches
as a primary identity versusimage bear.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.
Sorry to disrupt.
Yeah, I was just thinking about.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
you know, when Charles Buckler was playing
basketball, this mother and soncame up to him and and she was
talking about how he was the thekid's role model.
And they started talking andCharles Barkley the interim
saying ain't nobody's role model, I'm just a guy running down
the court throwing a ballthrough a hoop.
I'm not no role model.
You know, in essence, you knowpeople would laugh at that, but
(23:03):
in essence that was true.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
He said there are many people out there that can
be doing the same thing I'mdoing.
Why are you escalating me tosome level of intellect or
intelligence or some achievementthat I'm not any more or less
than anyone else I'm talkingabout?
In my estimation, that's whathe's stating.
I'm no role model.
I mess up just like everybodyelse.
I do stupid things likeeverybody else.
(23:27):
I do stupid things likeeverybody else.
And he went on to prove that.
In fact, some people say everytime, every time you open his
mouth, he proves that you know.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Absolutely Search Hallmark.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
You know I don't want to pick on him, but you know
there are people that think, asall three of us have been
pastors, you two are pastors nowthere are people that think of
pastors in a way.
Like you know, I used to have akid who used to come to church
and say, oh, that's Jesus, mama,I'm like golly, you're Jesus,
(24:03):
you know.
And so we represent images thatpeople kind of can I say this
we represent an image thatpeople created in their own mind
Because we're pastors, we'resupposed to be super human or
something.
I don't know what theexpectation is.
It depends on the person I'mtalking to many a times and what
(24:25):
they expect the pastor to be.
And people address me sometimesand I say just call me Nettie.
Oh, no, no, no, no, you thepastor, I got to call you pastor
.
I got to.
You know, you ain't got to callme anything.
You know.
Sometimes I just say just youcall me whatever you want to,
just don't forget to call me toeat Right.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, nettie, I think too, you know
we're talking about challengesthat we're faced with in terms
of the ability to see imagebarriers.
Well, I think one of thosegreat challenges, too, is also
hurry.
We live in this kind ofconstant movement, constant go,
(25:03):
rush, rush, rush, rush, rushonto the next, onto the next,
onto the next challenge, ontothe next task, onto the next
goal, and what that does is itkeeps us from slowing down and
seeing each other and justpausing.
I love what happens in Luke,chapter six, when Jesus is about
(25:25):
to heal the man with the witherhand, and the Pharisees are
there doing what they do withJesus, which is looking for
something to trip him up orlooking for a reason to say that
he is, he is not, he is not theguy, and so they are looking to
see if he's going to going toheal this man with their hand on
(25:47):
the Sabbath and Jesus before heheals the man Not on the
Sabbath With that slender sack.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I'm sorry, go ahead.
I couldn't just tell you Goahead.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
So they're looking to see if he's going to heal that
man.
But interesting enough, beforehe heals him, he has the man
stand up in front of thePharisees and he tells them to
look at him.
And basically he wants them tosee the man and says what would
you have me do?
Look at this man, look at him,look at his challenge, look at
(26:20):
his struggle, look at his lackor inability to experience true
rest.
And here he is in front of me,a man that can give him the God
that can give him true rest.
And you're trying to withholdtrue rest from him because it's
on the day of rest.
But I love what he does beforehe goes.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
All you need to rest is a day of rest.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Right, you're withholding true rest from a man
because you say, no, you can'tdo that on the day of rest and
this man needs true rest, he'sin front of the Lord of the rest
, but he can't get rest becauseyou don't want us to do this on
the day of rest.
Yeah, and so.
What's interesting, though, ishe says just look at him, look
at the man, and I think thereare times in which we don't look
(27:07):
at each other.
We're just in a constant stateof hurry, blowing by people one
after the other, and we lose themarvel of image bearers because
we lose the ability to stop andpause.
You know one of the things whenyou go to New York City, there
are two things that people aregoing to typically consider New
(27:33):
York City to be known for Onehurry, constant pace, constant
movement, hustle and bustletraffic.
But the second thing rudeness.
So they see, OK, if I'm goingto be in New York City, they're
going to be moving, moving,moving, moving, moving.
But also, because they'removing, moving, moving, moving,
(27:57):
moving, I shouldn't expect awhole lot of greeting, I
shouldn't expect a whole lot ofpausing and stopping to hear
people ask me how my day is.
I probably should expect peopleto be on the edge or blowing
their horn if I'm not movingquick enough for them and all of
this kind of stuff.
So those two things, what youlearn very much, run together.
Hurry and disregard Austin,where there is a increase in
(28:24):
hurry, increase in goals andachievement, and accomplishment
and success and all of thosethings, if we're not careful
they become primary and whenthey become primary, the image
bearing becomes secondary Beforethe Internet.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
You know, before the Internet and online stuff, media
and all of that, the digitalspace and all of that, we just
call it the rat race.
Yes, sir, you know, and youknow.
If, in fact, somebody in NewYork asks you how your day was,
don't expect for them to waitand listen.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
You know like and if they said let's do lunch.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Don't expect for them to follow up with it.
You know so, but that's aminiature of our culture and,
unfortunately, Brian, it's theminiature of the church more
than anything else.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, yeah, let me make sure if we got any New York
friends listening, let me makesure that I share that.
This is not just your dilemmanow.
This is all of our dilemma.
This is a cultural dilemma.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
That would be the dilemma in Beechburg Mississippi
.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Even Beechburg Mississippi.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
What about Tyler Towns?
Speaker 4 (29:41):
He's definitely saying, yeah, new York really is
that way, but we all are too.
So don't worry, new York, Ilove it, I love it.
I'm hearing you guys talkingabout the rush.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that we
have such an externally basedreligion, but most of the time
is that we don't internalize itwell enough.
The prophet Amos, really, Ithink, speaks to that
significantly, because thepeople of Israel were absolutely
meticulous about theirreligious observances, their
feasts, their sacrifices.
But you know, in Amos 5, 21through 24, he says I hate, I
(30:15):
despise your feasts, I take nodelight in your solemn
assemblies.
Even though you offer me burntofferings and grain offerings, I
will not accept them.
But let justice roll down likewaters and rise this like an
ever-flowing stream.
He's talking about allowingjust the current of God's mercy
and grace to run through us, notfor us to chase some type of
(30:39):
external goal or ambition.
That really leaves us incapableof having even the kindest
conversation with those whosimply ask us how our day is.
You know, we're so focused onthis rush, this ritual,
oftentimes, and even in ourexternal lives.
Isn't that the?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Good Samaritan story too in some ways.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I want to stop you when you
bring up the word Good Samaritan.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
The Bible says a certain Samaritan and not Good
Samaritan.
The Bible says a certainSamaritan and not Good Samaritan
.
And when you listen, now listen, and this is right in line with
I'm glad you brought that, thisright in line with what we're
talking about, because we, ashuman beings, have put captions
in our books and Bibles aboutthe Good Samaritan, but the
(31:24):
Bible talks about a certainSamaritan, so this Good
Samaritan.
But the Bible talks about acertain Samaritan, so this Good
Samaritan?
When I think about the GoodSamaritan, sir, I think, well,
all other Samaritans are bad.
Mm-hmm, isn't that the way wedo things?
Are these excuse me, but thisyou fill in the blank.
This is good folks.
Put your adjective on folks,whether it be white folks, black
(31:46):
folks, chinese, whatever.
This is one of the good ones.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
You know Well, isn't that like the certain Samaritan
Dr Hoyle?
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Well, how about?
Maybe I don't know, but hey,how about I go around and say,
hey, hey, don't worry, I'm oneof the good ones.
Yeah, does that work?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Brian, that does that work.
Yeah, right, does that work.
Maybe, maybe they'll changetheir mind, you know can I?
Say that no, no, you can't sayuh, no, I don't think it works.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
I don't think that works but no, I love it, but
that's what we do and so he saidthe good samaritan.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
All other samaritans are bad samaritan.
But the bible says talk about acertain Samaritan and describe
that.
And so I've been complimentedand insulted in the same
sentence.
Nitty, you're different.
Okay, that mean I'm not likethe rest.
That mean that.
What do that mean?
(32:43):
And why?
Well, you different, Nettie.
What do that mean?
You know, as you know, we havethe days of dialogue.
I don't have people sitting atthe table with me and look at me
, but, Nettie, you different.
I'm going to like different.
Who are you talking about?
I'm different from?
What are you doing you talkingabout?
All black folks are bad and youjust have to be one of the good
ones.
And I've, I've met.
(33:04):
Well, you're different, I knowyou Well.
Maybe, if you get to know therest of the folks, maybe they
would be different too.
And what you, whatever?
Whatever that means I'm talkingabout, that's a.
For me, that's a compliment andan insult all in the same
sentence.
Right, right, yeah, but but?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
but but yeah, I mean, I agree with that, I agree, we
button, button, but but no, no,no, no, no, no.
A certain samaritan, a certainsamaritan, austin, remember not.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
What's that now?
We're your incredible friend,remember.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
You don't have to say that's right, that's right, but
I was about to ask y'all whenwe first did that do y'all
y'all's wives also call you, mrincredible, or is that just me?
Speaker 1 (33:47):
That's just you.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Austin, that's just you.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
That's my side.
But no, seriously, guys, I mean, when you talk about this ideal
, of this hurry, you see it,even as you mentioned Austin.
You see it in Scripture, wherethere is a commitment to law
keeping.
I mean, in fact, that's whatyou know.
You see that in Luke 6, evenwhere there is the Pharisees,
(34:09):
who have their laws andordinances that they're holding
fast to, and because of thatthey can't see this wounded man
in need of rest to ensure thathe gets rest.
And the same thing with peoplethat are rushing to kingdom duty
or rushing to temple duty, andin the midst of rushing to
temple duty and rushing to servequote unquote, serve they miss
(34:31):
those quiet and slower momentswhere God has given us to serve
and to see, to see one another.
I think seeing one another manis just way more difficult than
we tend to acknowledge right now.
It's becoming more and moredifficult to pause, to stop and
(34:53):
to see, and that's one thingI've been deeply challenged with
here in the last several monthsis to see, is to stop, is to
pause and to see.
And I realize even in myselfI'm not sure if this is
something that resonates withyou guys, but I realize that the
(35:13):
more hurried I am, the lesscapacity I hold to see.
It just seems to be a regularrecurrence and, to be honest
with you, being really personalright now, it starts even in my
own house, right, being able tosee my spouse and being able to
see my children, see my boys,see my sons.
(35:35):
It starts right here.
When I get into the hustle andbustle, they're typically the
first people that I lose sightof, and and it just continues to
build and compound on top ofthat.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I don't know, so I believe, go ahead, jump in there
no, I'm gonna say I don't knowabout in your household, but my
wife's the first one to pointthat out to me.
You know you also.
She never called me MrIncredible, but I referred to
her as God's advisor.
Yeah, but she's urgent, shegives counsel to God, and so
(36:09):
when I say that, it's likeyou've got to be kidding me, you
know she looks at me with that.
That's not a compliment.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Hey guys, we're well past a half hour into this
podcast.
I want to put a bow on it.
Let me see if I can get youguys to offer our listening
audience.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
As long as the bow is purple, man, we're good.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Well, let me see if I can get you guys with a purple
bow to offer our listeningaudience as any counsel on ways
in which they can live a lifethat is recognizing the image
bearing nature that exists inall of us, seeing one another as
(36:55):
image bearers.
Give me just some practical,one practical step that they can
take in doing that.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Well, you know, this is a practical step, but most of
the time we don't understand it.
You know, the Bible says treatpeople as you want to be treated
, love each other and do thosethings.
I think in order for this tohappen, we got to be very
intentional about seeing peopleas God sees them.
(37:25):
I don't, you know, and that's.
I don't want that to sound likea cliche statement, but most
times it gets included incliches like well, just see
people like God, sam.
Well, how do you do that?
You do that through love,humility and a biblical
perspective of others in termsof that.
(37:48):
So how do I say this, brian?
You said we don't see peoplethat way.
Part of the problem is seeing.
We see people through the lensof the view that we see as we
see.
You would talk about New York,vicksburg, other places.
We got that image of how itlooks and whether have we
(38:13):
actually gone there and reallyexperienced?
I've been to New York severaltimes.
I've never been treated.
I've never been.
How do I say this?
No one has treated me rude.
I'm going to say Sure, I've hadpeople to surround and really
talk to me and treat me as adecent person and I really enjoy
(38:34):
being in New York.
I remember going there thefirst time and the guy went out
his way to show me the baseballpark that my dad wanted to see
and Statue of Liberty and otherthings.
They personally did that thatguy had time, eddie, yeah, and
so he was probably fromMississippi, but anyway.
So we got to see each other asGod sees us and reflect that
(39:03):
image from ourselves first andthen to others.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, Austin give me one practical takeaway that
people can leave this podcastepisode with in terms of going
forward to recognize the imageof God in others.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I said, be doers, not just knowers, and be doers and
beers.
So you love in action, not justin words.
You know, james 2.15.16 says Ifa brother or sister is poorly
clothed or lacking in daily foodand one of you say to them Go
in peace, be warmed and filled,without giving them the things
(39:40):
needed for the body, what goodis that?
You know?
So if we truly believe in theworth of every person, it
challenges us how we treat them,how we speak to them, how we
advocate for them, how we showup when they're in need.
Really, because at the end ofthe day, this isn't just about
thinking differently, it's aboutliving differently, it's about
being the people God has calledus to do.
(40:02):
And Jesus didn't just seepeople.
I mean, he saw them, but hedidn't just see them, he also
moved towards them, he gave thema way forward, he met them
where they were, he loved them,even when they were unlovable,
and then he eventually gave themthe path towards redemption.
And I just think he calls us todo the same.
(40:23):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Redemptive love is so important that we live it out
Amen.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Amen.
Christ is the ultimate examplein this, in terms of he saw us
and he acted towards us, john3.16,.
God so loved that he gave hisonly begotten son, and we see
clear examples of that allthroughout scripture.
The sacrificial, selfless,humble, compassionate love that
(40:52):
we see over and over again Jesusdemonstrating towards us is the
same love that he calls us todemonstrate towards others.
A new commandment I give youlove one another as I have loved
you, and so also to your point.
The ability to recognize oneanother as image bearers doesn't
end and doesn't stop with justrecognition, but it, but it.
(41:17):
But it continues through action, it continues through good
works, and it's in those goodworks that men and women get a
chance to see glimpses of ourFather in heaven and give glory
and thanks and praise to him.
And so, listening audience, weappreciate you guys listening to
us on today and we hope thatthere was something important or
something convicting orcompelling that was shared.
(41:39):
We want to invite you tocontinue to listen to the Living
Reconciled podcast.
You to continue to listen tothe Living Reconciled podcast.
You can do that by subscribingto any podcast or using any
podcast directory, using anypodcast app, searching on Living
Reconciled and you should findus.
We are grateful, and thankfulalso for all the contributions
and support that is made toLiving Reconciled but that is
(42:01):
made to Mission Mississippi.
We could always use your helpand your support and investment.
If you would like to contributeto the work of Mission
Mississippi, you can do so byvisiting missionmississippiorg,
find us on Facebook, instagram,social media.
We would love to chat with you,get your feedback on how we can
continue to serve our state andour world as it relates to the
(42:24):
work of reconciliation.
I'm Brian Crawford, with myincredible friends Nettie
Winters, austin Hoyle, signingoff saying God bless, god bless,
god bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
(42:56):
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
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