March 19, 2025 • 30 mins
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How can Christians bridge deep political divides? In this episode of Living Reconciled, Forest Thigpen, Senior Advisor for Empower Mississippi, shares how faith-driven engagement can transform public discourse. Drawing from his experience in policy work, he highlights the power of personal connection over political battles, from uniting legislators across racial lines to advocating for real change in Mississippi. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation on how faith can guide meaningful action, foster reconciliation, and inspire a new generation of leaders.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
I am your host, brian Crawford,with some good friends Nettie
(00:33):
Winters, austin Hoyle, gentlemen, how are you doing today?
Good, great, I'm just happy tobe here.
Excellent, austin, you're happyto be here.
Nettie, are you happy to behere as well?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Absolutely, man.
We went from being incrediblefriends to good friends.
I'm just thankful I'm still afriend.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Hey, man, as long as you're still a friend, that's
all that counts.
Man, there you go, that's allthat counts.
You know, hey, there's a song,that's what friends counts, man.
We want to give a quick shoutout to our friends, folks like
(01:08):
Mississippi College, atmosEnergy, regents Foundation, good
friends like Ann Winters,robert Ward.
Thank you guys so much for allthat you do to make this podcast
special and to make thispodcast possible.
It's because of what you dothat we're able to do what we do
, and today what we're doing iswe're having a great
(01:28):
conversation amongst goodfriends, with Forrest Thigpen.
Forrest Thigpen is a senioradvisor for Empower Mississippi.
He is a staunch advocate forwork in the public square, but
also a deeply devoted Christian,deeply devoted Christian, a
deeply devoted father, husband,and so we're incredibly excited
(01:48):
to learn a little bit more aboutForrest and your story, forrest
.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 4 (01:53):
man Doing great.
Glad to be here with you andyour friends.
Excellent, excellent.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That's great, great, great.
So we want to start off by justasking you, forrest man, tell
us a little bit about ForrestThigpen, tell us a little bit
about your life, your story offaith, how you came to know
Christ Jesus and how that faithhas driven your work in the
public square.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Yeah, well, I grew up in Cleveland, Mississippi, in
the Delta in the 1960s, whichwas a much different time.
I became a Christian at a youngage and experiences through
life that drew me closer andhelped me understand more about
what it meant to be a Christian.
But it's been a great ride andlots of lessons learned.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Awesome, awesome, man , awesome.
Tell us a little bit about yourwork in the public square and
how that work, how yourChristianity and your faith
shapes that work how that work,how your Christianity and your
faith shapes that work.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Well, my father was in the state legislature back in
the 60s but I was alwaysinterested in national issues
more and so after I graduatedfrom Delta State, I went to
Washington and worked forSenator Cochran for 10 years and
while I was up there, gotmarried, had two boys and wanted
to move back to Mississippi andhad developed an interest in
(03:10):
state issues as well.
Never was really interested inthe political side, more just
the policy side of doing what isgood and helpful and right, and
at the time there was a groupassociated with Focus on the
Family that was trying to startessentially a chapter in
Mississippi.
It was really an independentorganization and so I came down
(03:32):
and helped start that.
It's called the MississippiFamily Council at the time.
Later we changed the name toMississippi Center for Public
Policy, which is its currentname, Public Policy, which is
its current name, and I wasthere for 25 years and finally
burned out and had developed aninterest in some other things
that I'll mention in a minute.
(03:53):
Anyway, I ended up now atEmpower Mississippi, still doing
public policy work, but alittle bit more narrowly focused
, and I'm not in charge, whichis good.
I'm able to just focus on doingthe research and the
relationships and the thingsthat I think God has equipped me
to do.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Nettie, austin, man, you guys jump in.
Feel free to ask any questionsor forms that you got.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
I've known Nettie a long time.
When I worked for SenatorCochran he was in Washington too
, and one time at a big event wehad for the Mississippi Senate
public policy, nettie waspraying, and before he prayed he
said Forrest.
And I did time in Washington DCand I thought and I had to tell
(04:41):
people.
When it was my turn, we didn'tmeet at the DC jail.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That's not how it was at that time.
I love it.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I love it, but that's been decades.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
You know, for me, being in Washington sometimes
felt like I was at the DC jail.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Not much difference, right.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Yeah, First, you know reflect back on your early days
with the family life work thatyou did when you first came back
from DC.
Yeah well, there were a lot ofpro-life activists that helped
put that organization together,but there were other pro-life
groups and so we looked toaddress other issues that affect
(05:21):
the family, ultimately comingto the conclusion that all
issues affect the family.
Oh, wow, and that led to uschanging our name and broadening
our scope.
But in the early days, one ofthe things that we did help get
passed was the constitutionalamendment that recognized
marriage as a man and a woman,which, of course, has been
(05:42):
rendered moot by the US SupremeCourt, which, of course, has
been rendered moot by the USSupreme Court.
We were able to eliminate thefamily, the marriage penalty and
the tax code.
We advocated and still now atEmpower have always advocated
for more options for families,for educational options for
families so they can find theright setting for their child
(06:05):
and the right mix of teachersand maybe therapy or tutors or
that type thing, and there areways to do that that I've been
involved in, but actually myfavorite thing that I did in my
whole time at the Center forPublic Policy and Mississippi
Family Council, the favoritepolicy issue was helping to get
(06:28):
African hair braiders out fromunder the cosmetology board,
because they were having to goto cosmetology school for I
think it was 1,500 hours, sobasically nine months full time,
learning nothing about whatthey were in business to do and
so we were able to free them upand now there are several
(06:50):
thousand hair braiders inMississippi that are able to do
their craft without governmentinterference.
So that fits into myconservative political
philosophy or policy philosophyof getting government out of the
way.
It didn't require any subsidiesor any tax breaks or anything,
and that's what I really love,but mostly to see all these
(07:14):
folks that are flourishing nowand these businesses.
That's actually my favoritepolicy victory.
But one event we had and thishas been 30 years ago now that
Nettie was part of, was an eventcalled Leading People Out of
Poverty what Churches andIndividuals Can Do, because at
(07:34):
that time there was a lot oftalk about getting churches to
be more involved with helpingpeople who are in poverty in a
more structured way, and thereare a lot of churches that were
saying that's great.
I had no clue how to do it, andso that conference led to some
other things, so anyway.
So it's been a variety ofthings that I've really enjoyed
being a part of and have beenblessed that God's put me in a
(07:57):
place to be able to have a partin that.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
You know Forrest, you know you spoke about your
conservative leanings andcertainly you know one of the
most interesting things aboutMichigan, mississippi, is that
we have this kind of broad thatwe bring people that lean,
conservative, lean, liberal,left, right but all identify
(08:21):
with the price.
Jesus is Lord and that unity isnot only important but vital.
And I imagine you've seenyou've been in the political
sphere for so long that you'veseen probably some of the ebbs
and flows of trying to navigate,bringing all these different
people to the table fromdifferent political ideologies
(08:43):
and things of that nature,different people to the table
from different politicalideologies and things of that
nature.
So today, as you think aboutthe political sphere, what do
you find the most challengingtask in bringing people
conservative, liberal, christianpeople, people that hold Christ
as Lord?
What do you see as the mostchallenging thing when you're in
those political spaces in termsof bringing people together?
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Really, it's bringing people together that becomes a
challenge and a solution.
Because, in the first place, Ilove having conversations with
people who are genuinely liberal, that genuinely believe what
they're saying, and genuineconservatives, for that matter.
What I really don't enjoy ishaving conversations with
(09:26):
political conservatives orpolitical liberals, people who
are just in it for the power orthe politics or whatever it's
about their value.
Yeah, if they genuinely believewhat they believe, then I
always learn from that.
Yeah, and I love it.
But a few years ago I had aseries of dinners where I
invited just a few In some casesit was two, in one case it was
(09:49):
five, I think but trying to getblack and white legislators
together.
So I invited them to dinner andI said no policy discussions
here, just tell your story.
And it was amazing how similarsome of the stories were to
begin with.
But even last week I had one ofthe people, one of the senators
(10:12):
, who was at one of thosedinners, who told me and he's
told me this before, but herepeated it again that he said
that dinner, the one he attended, was one of the most
significant things he's had inhis whole career and he's
actually referred to it to thatdinner on the Senate floor
(10:34):
because they learned so much,not just about the other person
but about where they come from.
And you've heard me say thisbefore that I kind of view
people coming at different fromdifferent perspectives as if
we're on a map and you say,where are you and how did you
get here?
Well, that's really notdebatable.
(10:55):
You know you are where you are,you know how you got there.
And if we'll just listen toeach other and have to learn
about the other person insteadof listening, and then we're
able to do what somebody in adifferent one of those
conversations, one of thosedinners, told me, he said you
(11:16):
know, so-and-so voted differentfrom me on that, on a particular
bill.
And he said I was able to go tohim and say you know, I
understand why you voted thatway, but tell me more, because
I'm thinking this and I can seewhat you're let's let's figure
out where our differences are.
I love that.
That's so.
(11:37):
That was another one of myfavorite.
I guess I have a lot offavorite.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I know that that's a really good favorite thing to
have.
We talk about it here atMission Mississippi Shameless
plug for our course CultivatingHealthy Relationships Across the
Body Lines.
But in one section of thatcourse we talk about moving from
apathy to empathy and we saythat the journey of moving from
apathy to empathy has to includestorytelling, that stories
(12:02):
matter.
It's one of the axioms ofempathy that stories matter.
And if you allow people roomand space to just get in a room
and share stories, to just getin a room and share stories, to
see one another right as people,as image bearers, and to share
(12:23):
stories, there's an incrediblepower that's unleashed in that,
that brings us closer together.
That does not exist when wearen't allowed the space and
time and opportunity in the roomto do that, and so that's
incredible.
And one more notable thing andI'll turn it over to Austin
because I see him leaning in butone more notable thing to me,
man, is hearing you say thatthere is a difference between
genuine left, genuine right andpolitical left, political right.
(12:45):
And that rings so true to mebecause oftentimes I love to
kind of consume news fromdifferent sides.
So I'll watch left-leaning newssegments, I'll watch
right-leaning news segments.
I'll watch left-leaning newscommentary and etc.
But one of the things that'salways notable to me is I
(13:06):
appreciate when I'm watchingcommentary that I feel like the
people genuinely believe whatthey're saying.
What aggravates me is watchingcommentary where I don't get the
impression that they believe it, that they're just kind of
trying to coalesce or curate andgather power or gather
influence or or just win anargument.
(13:29):
Just win an argument, build,brand all these different things
.
And what I'm noticing for usand maybe you can speak to this
a little later after Austinjumps in but what I'm noticing
is it seems like that kind ofpoliticking is increasing
politic left for the purpose ofgathering power versus actually
(13:55):
being genuine about thosepositions and values yeah,
that's right.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
And and winning an argument, especially on social
media, when the response isimmediate and not help me
understand why you're sayingthat.
But you're an idiot, right,which never wins anybody over.
Sometimes I tell people that,um, in talking to, but you're an
idiot which never wins anybodyover.
Sometimes I tell people that intalking to, if you're going to
talk to your legislator about anissue, don't start off by
(14:22):
yelling at them or telling themthey're an idiot.
First of all, just with thegospel itself, the commandment
is to is as you go makedisciples, not hit people over
the head with the Bible, you gomake disciples, not hit people
over the head with the Bible.
And it's the same with thepolitical argument.
How many of you have ever beenconvinced to change your mind by
somebody who tells you you'rean idiot?
By the way, in those dinners Istarted off with people who I
(14:46):
believed to be believers, sothat we would know we at least
had that in common.
That's your overarchingidentity.
Yeah, and it didn't stay thatway the whole time, but that's
where we started and it makes adifference because you can trust
that they're genuinely comingat it from a biblical
perspective, whether it's thesame particular perspective on a
(15:09):
particular issue, right, butwhen it comes to the
fundamentals of Jesus being Lord, they were together.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, well, typically when someone calls me an idiot,
I just rush to agree with themand give them three or four
different reasons why they'reright about their assessment,
and they never know what to dowith that.
But then I go back and say, butI'm not an idiot for the
reasons you say I am.
But that sometimes workssometimes, doesn't?
No, I was actually.
I was doing some research onyou.
(15:36):
I've known about you and yourwork with Empower Mississippi, I
think, for probably about 18months, 24 months, something
like that, and I'm God just Ilove to pick your brain about so
much stuff.
But I know a couple of years agoyou were focusing a lot on, I
think, criminal justice reformand I'm bringing this up because
it's a conversation that we hadwith, I think, our last person,
(16:01):
felicia Marshall, and I waslooking at some of the ways
because, for me, I'm in thelocal church, I'm a pastor in
the local church, so I've had somany people come my way, walk
through my threshold, who havebeen at odds with the law on
this or that issue, and it'susually deeply personal issues
(16:21):
that have led them to become atodds with the law, and one of
the things I found on thewebsite.
I mean it was throughoutMagnolia Tribune, even the
Columbian Progress here in thenewspaper here, but also
EmpowerMississippiorg.
It has this quote that'stalking about conservative
criminal justice has not led tomore violent crime increases.
But I'm really interested onhow your faith has been able to
(16:46):
shape your perspective onbringing justice and mercy,
bringing true rehabilitation topeople.
You know, how have you beenable to kind of guide the
conversation here in Mississippiand how has your faith been
able to educate you and to helpyou to kind of get people to
focus a little bit more on justthe important task of
(17:08):
rehabilitating persons back tosociety so that they are just
constructive members of society.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Yeah.
Well, for this I have to givecredit to Phil Reed, who has,
over the years, gathered anumber of different discussion
groups around different topics,and one of them natively was
part of too, was around criminaljustice.
The New Jim Crow is the bookthat we were looking at.
Yeah, Michelle Alexander, yeah,and even though I didn't agree
(17:38):
with a lot of the premise thatshe had, that these laws were
inherently and intentionallyracist, the effects of them were
mind-changing for me,life-changing to some degree,
and because of the realitiesthat were revealed in that book,
which is.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
let me pause and just say this I'm so encouraged just
by what you just said, becausethere are a lot of folks that
won't agree with the inputs andthey will thus reject all the
outputs as well.
And so we, even if we disagreewith some of the theories and
some of the origins and you know, we can take in the information
(18:18):
and not cast the baby out withthe bathwater, so to speak,
because you still were able tolook at it with a clear lens, to
say but there's plenty of merithere.
Even if I don't agree with heron all of her premises and all
of her, all of her thesis orhypothesis, I can still agree
that there are some effects,yeah, and really related to all
the things we've talked about.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
People tend to go in an all or nothing rut.
I mean, if you think of goingon an old dirt road and you just
fall into the rut.
Even if you try to get out, youfall into the rut of thinking
either it's everything that Ibelieve or it's nothing I
believe and there's no inbetween.
And so you know, after kind ofbeing educated through, that
(19:03):
there were some.
There is a national movementcalled Right on Crime, kind of a
play on the political right,but also it is right and dealing
with criminal justice.
And it is a little tricky attimes, even when working with
conservative folks who will saytalk about the Bible requiring
us to forgive, but the Biblealso requires government and
(19:26):
gives government a role inwielding the sword and in
punishing wrongdoers.
So it's finding the balance.
That has been one of thefascinating parts of the journey
for me on this is understandingthat there is a role for
government that God intends, butthere are also ways that we can
, whether it's restorativejustice and providing
(19:47):
face-to-face meetings withpeople who are victims of crime
and those who committed thecrime, or whether it's where
most of our focus at Empower isis trying to help people prepare
for reentering society, preparefor when they get out of prison
so that they are equipped withjob skills, with teaching, with
(20:12):
normal skills of working withpeople, people and could be
mental health treatment, couldbe drug treatment, job training
all sorts of ways to preparepeople so that when they get out
they can take a different path.
And I will tell you this in thepeople that I've talked to who
have done a lot of work in theprisons in preparing for reentry
(20:34):
, almost without fail, they havesaid the real changes that
occur in people who are inprison it comes through a faith
aspect, whether that's becominga Christian or learning to what
they had learned as a child,that that creates permanent
(20:57):
change, not just behavioralchange for the moment.
And so all of that mixes intohow I view the criminal justice.
We have worked together on it.
We battled hard yesterdayActually we were supposed to
record this yesterday but wecouldn't because we were facing
a battle in the legislature overa bill to prohibit boards and
(21:20):
commissions from denying anoccupational license to somebody
just because they have acriminal record and so we were
able to get that through.
It's now through both houses indifferent forms, so it's not
quite ready to go to thegovernor yet.
It's now through both houses indifferent forms, so it's not
quite ready to go to thegovernor yet.
But it's a challenge becausepeople are so set in their ways
of thinking one way or the other, either let them all out or
(21:41):
lock them all up, and so findingways is actually.
It's a challenge, but it'ssomething I enjoy and I think
God has given me someexperiences and skills to be
able to navigate that.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, the call and the task of dealing rightly when
it concerns people andcommunities is a lot more great
than people are willing to admit.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Multifaceted, yeah, yeah.
And one other thing I do wantto mention that I love doing and
because of certaincircumstances I haven't been
able to focus on it, but I'mabout to again is I've had this
long had this desire to workwith Black business owners to
help them overcome the obstaclesto their growth, not as this
white guy coming out with allthe answers, but as somebody to
(22:27):
come in and just like withdisciples, just walking
alongside and saying what do yousee as the obstacles to your
growth?
And just the deepeningunderstanding I've had from life
experiences and businessexperiences and but just the
relationships that I've beenable to develop through those
have really opened my eyes to alot of things that people
(22:51):
wouldn't think of normally needfor you to try, because the deck
is stacked against you, but tohelp them with connections to
either other business ownersthey can sell to or whatever the
(23:11):
case may be in their business.
Because I've run anorganization and, as you know,
that's like running a business,but in terms of selling products
I haven't done that, but Ithink I could find the answer so
I can walk alongside them andpoint them to places and people,
and eventually that may have apublic policy side to it as well
(23:34):
, like the occupationallicensing.
But really, this is my desireis to help grow the black
business community and theeconomy.
And what I tell white people orpoliticians is this is 37% of
our population.
And another thing I learned in aPhil Reed group I think we were
talking about poverty there inone of these groups is that in
(23:59):
the 1960s, when I was growing up, 1% of the economy and GDP was
produced by black-ownedbusinesses, and now in
Mississippi it's 1%.
It's still 1%, and it's 39%white.
The 60% is corporate, so it'snot like it's 1% in 99, but
(24:25):
still that percentage hasn'tchanged.
Well, why is that?
And so part of it might begetting government out of the
way.
Part of it is the whitebusiness community and the black
business community.
This might even be somethingy'all could do, because it's not
political.
White business and blackcommunity don't.
Black business community don'tknow each other, and so they
(24:45):
don't even know.
Hey, I could call you to be youknow, if I need this in my
business, you know I'm going tocall you.
I don't know to do that becauseI don't know you right, because
you do business with people.
You know people who know people.
You know, and so bringing thosepeople together, uh is, um is a
(25:06):
huge part of the answer.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, you've given us so much to chew on man, but the
way that you kind of led us inthat last statement gives us an
opportunity to ask this questionwhat hopes do you have for the
future of Mississippi as itrelates to the public square,
(25:30):
the opportunities that we haveto work across the aisle left
leaning, right, leaning,progressive, progressive,
conservative signs of light doyou see in?
Speaker 4 (25:53):
this current moment that allows you to kind of keep
tipping away at this work.
Well, for one thing, peoplehave asked me how in the world?
I have been in this world for30 years in the political world
and I'd say I just do what Ithink God is calling me to do
and leave the results to Him.
But I do see, and this doesgive me hope I do see in the
younger generation oflegislators much more openness,
(26:14):
much more willingness to learnabout each other and to work
with each other.
There's a senator right now thatwas criticized by a statewide
official.
It was on a policy issue tostart with, but then it became.
There was a picture of thiswhite legislator who was fist
(26:36):
bumping or laughing with a blacklegislator and he was
criticized for that.
But that was one of thosepolitical conservatives that did
that.
But to me, that youngergeneration of legislators black
and white are much more open toworking with each other and are
not tied to some of the thingsthat genuinely occurred to the
(26:58):
older members of the legislature, that they're kind of still
hanging on to white and black,the old ways of thinking about
each other.
So that part gives me hope.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
That's really cool.
That's really cool, man Forrest.
This has been a really reallygood conversation, really really
good lessons learned andgleaned, and so we are grateful
to you for that.
For those who would like tokeep up with Forrest Thigpen,
can you share any social media,any public knowledge that would
be useful to keep up?
Speaker 4 (27:27):
with Forest Dick.
I'm somewhat of a dinosaur onthat.
I do follow friends on Facebookbut I actually generally don't
accept friend requests, likefrom politicians.
I understand, I understand andon Twitter I read it, but I
don't ever post, so I don't likethere.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
But Empower.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
Mississippi.
Empower and.
I'm not post Add a lot there.
Empower Mississippi.
Empower MSorg is where I work.
You can follow our work there.
Email address is forest1resd atempowermsorg.
I'd love to hear from peopleExcellent.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Brother, thank you so much.
Thank you for yourrepresentation of the kingdom in
the public square.
We recently had arepresentative, ronnie Crudup Jr
online with us a couple ofepisodes ago, and both you and
him are incrediblerepresentatives of the kingdom
in the public square.
So we're so grateful that wegot good people in the midst of
(28:22):
all of this kind of chaos thatwe think about when we think
about politics.
Our minds don't think thatthere are good people in the
square, and so we are sograteful to have good people in
the political squarerepresenting the kingdom and
representing a pursuit offlourishing for all people.
So thank you so much.
Thank you Absolutely.
And for those of y'all who arelistening online today to our
(28:44):
podcast, feel free to not onlylike this episode and share this
episode, but feel free tosubscribe to Living Reconciled.
You can do so by visiting anypodcast apps or websites like
Apple Pods or Google or Spotifyor Amazon.
Wherever you might think aboutpodcasts, you can find Living
(29:05):
Reconciled, and we would lovefor you to like, share and
subscribe to our podcast.
Again.
This has been Brian Crawford,austin Hoyle, nettie Winters,
with our new friend, forrestDigpin, signing off saying God
bless, god bless, thanks forjoining Living Reconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
(29:25):
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening you.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
I am your host, brian Crawford,with some good friends Nettie
(00:33):
Winters, austin Hoyle, gentlemen, how are you doing today?
Good, great, I'm just happy tobe here.
Excellent, austin, you're happyto be here.
Nettie, are you happy to behere as well?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Absolutely, man.
We went from being incrediblefriends to good friends.
I'm just thankful I'm still afriend.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Hey, man, as long as you're still a friend, that's
all that counts.
Man, there you go, that's allthat counts.
You know, hey, there's a song,that's what friends counts, man.
We want to give a quick shoutout to our friends, folks like
(01:08):
Mississippi College, atmosEnergy, regents Foundation, good
friends like Ann Winters,robert Ward.
Thank you guys so much for allthat you do to make this podcast
special and to make thispodcast possible.
It's because of what you dothat we're able to do what we do
, and today what we're doing iswe're having a great
(01:28):
conversation amongst goodfriends, with Forrest Thigpen.
Forrest Thigpen is a senioradvisor for Empower Mississippi.
He is a staunch advocate forwork in the public square, but
also a deeply devoted Christian,deeply devoted Christian, a
deeply devoted father, husband,and so we're incredibly excited
(01:48):
to learn a little bit more aboutForrest and your story, forrest
.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 4 (01:53):
man Doing great.
Glad to be here with you andyour friends.
Excellent, excellent.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That's great, great, great.
So we want to start off by justasking you, forrest man, tell
us a little bit about ForrestThigpen, tell us a little bit
about your life, your story offaith, how you came to know
Christ Jesus and how that faithhas driven your work in the
public square.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Yeah, well, I grew up in Cleveland, Mississippi, in
the Delta in the 1960s, whichwas a much different time.
I became a Christian at a youngage and experiences through
life that drew me closer andhelped me understand more about
what it meant to be a Christian.
But it's been a great ride andlots of lessons learned.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Awesome, awesome, man , awesome.
Tell us a little bit about yourwork in the public square and
how that work, how yourChristianity and your faith
shapes that work how that work,how your Christianity and your
faith shapes that work.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Well, my father was in the state legislature back in
the 60s but I was alwaysinterested in national issues
more and so after I graduatedfrom Delta State, I went to
Washington and worked forSenator Cochran for 10 years and
while I was up there, gotmarried, had two boys and wanted
to move back to Mississippi andhad developed an interest in
(03:10):
state issues as well.
Never was really interested inthe political side, more just
the policy side of doing what isgood and helpful and right, and
at the time there was a groupassociated with Focus on the
Family that was trying to startessentially a chapter in
Mississippi.
It was really an independentorganization and so I came down
(03:32):
and helped start that.
It's called the MississippiFamily Council at the time.
Later we changed the name toMississippi Center for Public
Policy, which is its currentname, Public Policy, which is
its current name, and I wasthere for 25 years and finally
burned out and had developed aninterest in some other things
that I'll mention in a minute.
(03:53):
Anyway, I ended up now atEmpower Mississippi, still doing
public policy work, but alittle bit more narrowly focused
, and I'm not in charge, whichis good.
I'm able to just focus on doingthe research and the
relationships and the thingsthat I think God has equipped me
to do.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Nettie, austin, man, you guys jump in.
Feel free to ask any questionsor forms that you got.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
I've known Nettie a long time.
When I worked for SenatorCochran he was in Washington too
, and one time at a big event wehad for the Mississippi Senate
public policy, nettie waspraying, and before he prayed he
said Forrest.
And I did time in Washington DCand I thought and I had to tell
(04:41):
people.
When it was my turn, we didn'tmeet at the DC jail.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That's not how it was at that time.
I love it.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I love it, but that's been decades.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
You know, for me, being in Washington sometimes
felt like I was at the DC jail.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Not much difference, right.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Yeah, First, you know reflect back on your early days
with the family life work thatyou did when you first came back
from DC.
Yeah well, there were a lot ofpro-life activists that helped
put that organization together,but there were other pro-life
groups and so we looked toaddress other issues that affect
(05:21):
the family, ultimately comingto the conclusion that all
issues affect the family.
Oh, wow, and that led to uschanging our name and broadening
our scope.
But in the early days, one ofthe things that we did help get
passed was the constitutionalamendment that recognized
marriage as a man and a woman,which, of course, has been
(05:42):
rendered moot by the US SupremeCourt, which, of course, has
been rendered moot by the USSupreme Court.
We were able to eliminate thefamily, the marriage penalty and
the tax code.
We advocated and still now atEmpower have always advocated
for more options for families,for educational options for
families so they can find theright setting for their child
(06:05):
and the right mix of teachersand maybe therapy or tutors or
that type thing, and there areways to do that that I've been
involved in, but actually myfavorite thing that I did in my
whole time at the Center forPublic Policy and Mississippi
Family Council, the favoritepolicy issue was helping to get
(06:28):
African hair braiders out fromunder the cosmetology board,
because they were having to goto cosmetology school for I
think it was 1,500 hours, sobasically nine months full time,
learning nothing about whatthey were in business to do and
so we were able to free them upand now there are several
(06:50):
thousand hair braiders inMississippi that are able to do
their craft without governmentinterference.
So that fits into myconservative political
philosophy or policy philosophyof getting government out of the
way.
It didn't require any subsidiesor any tax breaks or anything,
and that's what I really love,but mostly to see all these
(07:14):
folks that are flourishing nowand these businesses.
That's actually my favoritepolicy victory.
But one event we had and thishas been 30 years ago now that
Nettie was part of, was an eventcalled Leading People Out of
Poverty what Churches andIndividuals Can Do, because at
(07:34):
that time there was a lot oftalk about getting churches to
be more involved with helpingpeople who are in poverty in a
more structured way, and thereare a lot of churches that were
saying that's great.
I had no clue how to do it, andso that conference led to some
other things, so anyway.
So it's been a variety ofthings that I've really enjoyed
being a part of and have beenblessed that God's put me in a
(07:57):
place to be able to have a partin that.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
You know Forrest, you know you spoke about your
conservative leanings andcertainly you know one of the
most interesting things aboutMichigan, mississippi, is that
we have this kind of broad thatwe bring people that lean,
conservative, lean, liberal,left, right but all identify
(08:21):
with the price.
Jesus is Lord and that unity isnot only important but vital.
And I imagine you've seenyou've been in the political
sphere for so long that you'veseen probably some of the ebbs
and flows of trying to navigate,bringing all these different
people to the table fromdifferent political ideologies
(08:43):
and things of that nature,different people to the table
from different politicalideologies and things of that
nature.
So today, as you think aboutthe political sphere, what do
you find the most challengingtask in bringing people
conservative, liberal, christianpeople, people that hold Christ
as Lord?
What do you see as the mostchallenging thing when you're in
those political spaces in termsof bringing people together?
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Really, it's bringing people together that becomes a
challenge and a solution.
Because, in the first place, Ilove having conversations with
people who are genuinely liberal, that genuinely believe what
they're saying, and genuineconservatives, for that matter.
What I really don't enjoy ishaving conversations with
(09:26):
political conservatives orpolitical liberals, people who
are just in it for the power orthe politics or whatever it's
about their value.
Yeah, if they genuinely believewhat they believe, then I
always learn from that.
Yeah, and I love it.
But a few years ago I had aseries of dinners where I
invited just a few In some casesit was two, in one case it was
(09:49):
five, I think but trying to getblack and white legislators
together.
So I invited them to dinner andI said no policy discussions
here, just tell your story.
And it was amazing how similarsome of the stories were to
begin with.
But even last week I had one ofthe people, one of the senators
(10:12):
, who was at one of thosedinners, who told me and he's
told me this before, but herepeated it again that he said
that dinner, the one he attended, was one of the most
significant things he's had inhis whole career and he's
actually referred to it to thatdinner on the Senate floor
(10:34):
because they learned so much,not just about the other person
but about where they come from.
And you've heard me say thisbefore that I kind of view
people coming at different fromdifferent perspectives as if
we're on a map and you say,where are you and how did you
get here?
Well, that's really notdebatable.
(10:55):
You know you are where you are,you know how you got there.
And if we'll just listen toeach other and have to learn
about the other person insteadof listening, and then we're
able to do what somebody in adifferent one of those
conversations, one of thosedinners, told me, he said you
(11:16):
know, so-and-so voted differentfrom me on that, on a particular
bill.
And he said I was able to go tohim and say you know, I
understand why you voted thatway, but tell me more, because
I'm thinking this and I can seewhat you're let's let's figure
out where our differences are.
I love that.
That's so.
(11:37):
That was another one of myfavorite.
I guess I have a lot offavorite.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I know that that's a really good favorite thing to
have.
We talk about it here atMission Mississippi Shameless
plug for our course CultivatingHealthy Relationships Across the
Body Lines.
But in one section of thatcourse we talk about moving from
apathy to empathy and we saythat the journey of moving from
apathy to empathy has to includestorytelling, that stories
(12:02):
matter.
It's one of the axioms ofempathy that stories matter.
And if you allow people roomand space to just get in a room
and share stories, to just getin a room and share stories, to
see one another right as people,as image bearers, and to share
(12:23):
stories, there's an incrediblepower that's unleashed in that,
that brings us closer together.
That does not exist when wearen't allowed the space and
time and opportunity in the roomto do that, and so that's
incredible.
And one more notable thing andI'll turn it over to Austin
because I see him leaning in butone more notable thing to me,
man, is hearing you say thatthere is a difference between
genuine left, genuine right andpolitical left, political right.
(12:45):
And that rings so true to mebecause oftentimes I love to
kind of consume news fromdifferent sides.
So I'll watch left-leaning newssegments, I'll watch
right-leaning news segments.
I'll watch left-leaning newscommentary and etc.
But one of the things that'salways notable to me is I
(13:06):
appreciate when I'm watchingcommentary that I feel like the
people genuinely believe whatthey're saying.
What aggravates me is watchingcommentary where I don't get the
impression that they believe it, that they're just kind of
trying to coalesce or curate andgather power or gather
influence or or just win anargument.
(13:29):
Just win an argument, build,brand all these different things
.
And what I'm noticing for usand maybe you can speak to this
a little later after Austinjumps in but what I'm noticing
is it seems like that kind ofpoliticking is increasing
politic left for the purpose ofgathering power versus actually
(13:55):
being genuine about thosepositions and values yeah,
that's right.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
And and winning an argument, especially on social
media, when the response isimmediate and not help me
understand why you're sayingthat.
But you're an idiot, right,which never wins anybody over.
Sometimes I tell people that,um, in talking to, but you're an
idiot which never wins anybodyover.
Sometimes I tell people that intalking to, if you're going to
talk to your legislator about anissue, don't start off by
(14:22):
yelling at them or telling themthey're an idiot.
First of all, just with thegospel itself, the commandment
is to is as you go makedisciples, not hit people over
the head with the Bible, you gomake disciples, not hit people
over the head with the Bible.
And it's the same with thepolitical argument.
How many of you have ever beenconvinced to change your mind by
somebody who tells you you'rean idiot?
By the way, in those dinners Istarted off with people who I
(14:46):
believed to be believers, sothat we would know we at least
had that in common.
That's your overarchingidentity.
Yeah, and it didn't stay thatway the whole time, but that's
where we started and it makes adifference because you can trust
that they're genuinely comingat it from a biblical
perspective, whether it's thesame particular perspective on a
(15:09):
particular issue, right, butwhen it comes to the
fundamentals of Jesus being Lord, they were together.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, well, typically when someone calls me an idiot,
I just rush to agree with themand give them three or four
different reasons why they'reright about their assessment,
and they never know what to dowith that.
But then I go back and say, butI'm not an idiot for the
reasons you say I am.
But that sometimes workssometimes, doesn't?
No, I was actually.
I was doing some research onyou.
(15:36):
I've known about you and yourwork with Empower Mississippi, I
think, for probably about 18months, 24 months, something
like that, and I'm God just Ilove to pick your brain about so
much stuff.
But I know a couple of years agoyou were focusing a lot on, I
think, criminal justice reformand I'm bringing this up because
it's a conversation that we hadwith, I think, our last person,
(16:01):
felicia Marshall, and I waslooking at some of the ways
because, for me, I'm in thelocal church, I'm a pastor in
the local church, so I've had somany people come my way, walk
through my threshold, who havebeen at odds with the law on
this or that issue, and it'susually deeply personal issues
(16:21):
that have led them to become atodds with the law, and one of
the things I found on thewebsite.
I mean it was throughoutMagnolia Tribune, even the
Columbian Progress here in thenewspaper here, but also
EmpowerMississippiorg.
It has this quote that'stalking about conservative
criminal justice has not led tomore violent crime increases.
But I'm really interested onhow your faith has been able to
(16:46):
shape your perspective onbringing justice and mercy,
bringing true rehabilitation topeople.
You know, how have you beenable to kind of guide the
conversation here in Mississippiand how has your faith been
able to educate you and to helpyou to kind of get people to
focus a little bit more on justthe important task of
(17:08):
rehabilitating persons back tosociety so that they are just
constructive members of society.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Yeah.
Well, for this I have to givecredit to Phil Reed, who has,
over the years, gathered anumber of different discussion
groups around different topics,and one of them natively was
part of too, was around criminaljustice.
The New Jim Crow is the bookthat we were looking at.
Yeah, Michelle Alexander, yeah,and even though I didn't agree
(17:38):
with a lot of the premise thatshe had, that these laws were
inherently and intentionallyracist, the effects of them were
mind-changing for me,life-changing to some degree,
and because of the realitiesthat were revealed in that book,
which is.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
let me pause and just say this I'm so encouraged just
by what you just said, becausethere are a lot of folks that
won't agree with the inputs andthey will thus reject all the
outputs as well.
And so we, even if we disagreewith some of the theories and
some of the origins and you know, we can take in the information
(18:18):
and not cast the baby out withthe bathwater, so to speak,
because you still were able tolook at it with a clear lens, to
say but there's plenty of merithere.
Even if I don't agree with heron all of her premises and all
of her, all of her thesis orhypothesis, I can still agree
that there are some effects,yeah, and really related to all
the things we've talked about.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
People tend to go in an all or nothing rut.
I mean, if you think of goingon an old dirt road and you just
fall into the rut.
Even if you try to get out, youfall into the rut of thinking
either it's everything that Ibelieve or it's nothing I
believe and there's no inbetween.
And so you know, after kind ofbeing educated through, that
(19:03):
there were some.
There is a national movementcalled Right on Crime, kind of a
play on the political right,but also it is right and dealing
with criminal justice.
And it is a little tricky attimes, even when working with
conservative folks who will saytalk about the Bible requiring
us to forgive, but the Biblealso requires government and
(19:26):
gives government a role inwielding the sword and in
punishing wrongdoers.
So it's finding the balance.
That has been one of thefascinating parts of the journey
for me on this is understandingthat there is a role for
government that God intends, butthere are also ways that we can
, whether it's restorativejustice and providing
(19:47):
face-to-face meetings withpeople who are victims of crime
and those who committed thecrime, or whether it's where
most of our focus at Empower isis trying to help people prepare
for reentering society, preparefor when they get out of prison
so that they are equipped withjob skills, with teaching, with
(20:12):
normal skills of working withpeople, people and could be
mental health treatment, couldbe drug treatment, job training
all sorts of ways to preparepeople so that when they get out
they can take a different path.
And I will tell you this in thepeople that I've talked to who
have done a lot of work in theprisons in preparing for reentry
(20:34):
, almost without fail, they havesaid the real changes that
occur in people who are inprison it comes through a faith
aspect, whether that's becominga Christian or learning to what
they had learned as a child,that that creates permanent
(20:57):
change, not just behavioralchange for the moment.
And so all of that mixes intohow I view the criminal justice.
We have worked together on it.
We battled hard yesterdayActually we were supposed to
record this yesterday but wecouldn't because we were facing
a battle in the legislature overa bill to prohibit boards and
(21:20):
commissions from denying anoccupational license to somebody
just because they have acriminal record and so we were
able to get that through.
It's now through both houses indifferent forms, so it's not
quite ready to go to thegovernor yet.
It's now through both houses indifferent forms, so it's not
quite ready to go to thegovernor yet.
But it's a challenge becausepeople are so set in their ways
of thinking one way or the other, either let them all out or
(21:41):
lock them all up, and so findingways is actually.
It's a challenge, but it'ssomething I enjoy and I think
God has given me someexperiences and skills to be
able to navigate that.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, the call and the task of dealing rightly when
it concerns people andcommunities is a lot more great
than people are willing to admit.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Multifaceted, yeah, yeah.
And one other thing I do wantto mention that I love doing and
because of certaincircumstances I haven't been
able to focus on it, but I'mabout to again is I've had this
long had this desire to workwith Black business owners to
help them overcome the obstaclesto their growth, not as this
white guy coming out with allthe answers, but as somebody to
(22:27):
come in and just like withdisciples, just walking
alongside and saying what do yousee as the obstacles to your
growth?
And just the deepeningunderstanding I've had from life
experiences and businessexperiences and but just the
relationships that I've beenable to develop through those
have really opened my eyes to alot of things that people
(22:51):
wouldn't think of normally needfor you to try, because the deck
is stacked against you, but tohelp them with connections to
either other business ownersthey can sell to or whatever the
(23:11):
case may be in their business.
Because I've run anorganization and, as you know,
that's like running a business,but in terms of selling products
I haven't done that, but Ithink I could find the answer so
I can walk alongside them andpoint them to places and people,
and eventually that may have apublic policy side to it as well
(23:34):
, like the occupationallicensing.
But really, this is my desireis to help grow the black
business community and theeconomy.
And what I tell white people orpoliticians is this is 37% of
our population.
And another thing I learned in aPhil Reed group I think we were
talking about poverty there inone of these groups is that in
(23:59):
the 1960s, when I was growing up, 1% of the economy and GDP was
produced by black-ownedbusinesses, and now in
Mississippi it's 1%.
It's still 1%, and it's 39%white.
The 60% is corporate, so it'snot like it's 1% in 99, but
(24:25):
still that percentage hasn'tchanged.
Well, why is that?
And so part of it might begetting government out of the
way.
Part of it is the whitebusiness community and the black
business community.
This might even be somethingy'all could do, because it's not
political.
White business and blackcommunity don't.
Black business community don'tknow each other, and so they
(24:45):
don't even know.
Hey, I could call you to be youknow, if I need this in my
business, you know I'm going tocall you.
I don't know to do that becauseI don't know you right, because
you do business with people.
You know people who know people.
You know, and so bringing thosepeople together, uh is, um is a
(25:06):
huge part of the answer.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, you've given us so much to chew on man, but the
way that you kind of led us inthat last statement gives us an
opportunity to ask this questionwhat hopes do you have for the
future of Mississippi as itrelates to the public square,
(25:30):
the opportunities that we haveto work across the aisle left
leaning, right, leaning,progressive, progressive,
conservative signs of light doyou see in?
Speaker 4 (25:53):
this current moment that allows you to kind of keep
tipping away at this work.
Well, for one thing, peoplehave asked me how in the world?
I have been in this world for30 years in the political world
and I'd say I just do what Ithink God is calling me to do
and leave the results to Him.
But I do see, and this doesgive me hope I do see in the
younger generation oflegislators much more openness,
(26:14):
much more willingness to learnabout each other and to work
with each other.
There's a senator right now thatwas criticized by a statewide
official.
It was on a policy issue tostart with, but then it became.
There was a picture of thiswhite legislator who was fist
(26:36):
bumping or laughing with a blacklegislator and he was
criticized for that.
But that was one of thosepolitical conservatives that did
that.
But to me, that youngergeneration of legislators black
and white are much more open toworking with each other and are
not tied to some of the thingsthat genuinely occurred to the
(26:58):
older members of the legislature, that they're kind of still
hanging on to white and black,the old ways of thinking about
each other.
So that part gives me hope.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
That's really cool.
That's really cool, man Forrest.
This has been a really reallygood conversation, really really
good lessons learned andgleaned, and so we are grateful
to you for that.
For those who would like tokeep up with Forrest Thigpen,
can you share any social media,any public knowledge that would
be useful to keep up?
Speaker 4 (27:27):
with Forest Dick.
I'm somewhat of a dinosaur onthat.
I do follow friends on Facebookbut I actually generally don't
accept friend requests, likefrom politicians.
I understand, I understand andon Twitter I read it, but I
don't ever post, so I don't likethere.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
But Empower.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
Mississippi.
Empower and.
I'm not post Add a lot there.
Empower Mississippi.
Empower MSorg is where I work.
You can follow our work there.
Email address is forest1resd atempowermsorg.
I'd love to hear from peopleExcellent.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Brother, thank you so much.
Thank you for yourrepresentation of the kingdom in
the public square.
We recently had arepresentative, ronnie Crudup Jr
online with us a couple ofepisodes ago, and both you and
him are incrediblerepresentatives of the kingdom
in the public square.
So we're so grateful that wegot good people in the midst of
(28:22):
all of this kind of chaos thatwe think about when we think
about politics.
Our minds don't think thatthere are good people in the
square, and so we are sograteful to have good people in
the political squarerepresenting the kingdom and
representing a pursuit offlourishing for all people.
So thank you so much.
Thank you Absolutely.
And for those of y'all who arelistening online today to our
(28:44):
podcast, feel free to not onlylike this episode and share this
episode, but feel free tosubscribe to Living Reconciled.
You can do so by visiting anypodcast apps or websites like
Apple Pods or Google or Spotifyor Amazon.
Wherever you might think aboutpodcasts, you can find Living
(29:05):
Reconciled, and we would lovefor you to like, share and
subscribe to our podcast.
Again.
This has been Brian Crawford,austin Hoyle, nettie Winters,
with our new friend, forrestDigpin, signing off saying God
bless, god bless, thanks forjoining Living Reconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
(29:25):
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening you.
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