April 2, 2025 • 45 mins
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What does God really think of our worship when it lacks justice? In this powerful episode, we unpack the convicting words of Amos 5 with hosts Brian Crawford, Neddie Winters, and Austin Hoyle. Together, we explore how worship disconnected from justice becomes noise to God’s ears—and how true worship calls us to embody justice in every area of life. From Jesus’s rebuke of the Pharisees to modern-day performative faith, this conversation challenges us to move beyond rituals and live out a gospel that reconciles us to both God and neighbor.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
I'm your host, brian Crawford,and I am with my very good
(00:35):
friends Nettie Winters, austinHoyle.
Gentlemen, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I'm good today.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Great, great, great no-transcript.
Great, great, great, excellent,excellent, excellent.
Before we get started, I wantto give a quick shout out to our
friends Mississippi College,anderson United Methodist Church
, grace Temple Church,mississippi State, real
Christian Foundation, nissan, stDominic's Atmos Energy, regents
Foundation, Brown MissionaryBaptist Church, christian Life
Church.
Ms Doris Powell, mr Robert Ward, ms Ann Winters, thank you so
(01:02):
much for everything that you doand supporting the Living
Reconciled podcast and MissionMississippi.
It's because of the things thatyou do, your generosity, that
we're able to do what we do andif you would like to join this
illustrious group in supportingthe work of Living Reconciled
(01:23):
and Mission Mississippi and thatwill give you an opportunity to
join in this work with yourfinancial contributions and
gifts.
In particular, as it is seen inAmos, chapter five, dr Martin
Luther King Jr.
Years ago, on several occasionshe mentioned one of the
(01:54):
passages or one of thescriptures in Amos that has
become very popular Amos,chapter five, verse 24.
One such occasion in which DrKing referenced this passage was
in his letter written from aBirmingham jail.
He said, quote no, no, we arenot satisfied and we will not be
satisfied until justice rollsdown like waters and
(02:17):
righteousness like a mightystream.
There have been occasions inwhich that particular phrase has
been used throughout historyand placed on shirts, coffee
cups, portraits in houses.
But I would like to look moredeeply behind that phrase and
look at what's underneath thatphrase in the book of Amos, the
(02:39):
minor prophet, Amos was a manwho had a very, very hard
message for Israel.
Amos was a man who had a very,very hard message for Israel,
and I want to see how thatmessage lands on the
contemporary church and how thatmessage lands on our particular
mission of encouragingbelievers in the work of
reconciliation.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And so, if you don't, mind Austin and Nettie and our
wonderful listeners.
I'll take a moment and I'llread that passage Just before
you dive in so deep and read thepassage.
Brother, you know, nitty,always have questions right or a
story or something, and so whyis it that you have a question
and a story today?
I'm going to try to limit it toa question.
Maybe I'll be above, I'm notsure.
Listen, you know we get cupsand t-shirts.
(03:25):
I remember having you know whatwas it.
Do what Jesus would do, yeah,wwjd.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
What would Jesus do?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
And this phrase of letting justice roll down.
You know, I remember the WWDJor whatever the acronym is.
It was a fad.
And I think the teacups andt-shirts that let justice roll
down like a migrant, I think itbecome a fad and I think it
become popular.
Because in that speech, king,we didn't get the essence.
(04:02):
I don't think we get theessence of what he was saying.
He was saying all that you'redoing to pass equal rights, to
give us a seat at the table, thewhole deal.
He says no, we're not satisfiedbecause you know, all what
you're doing is tokenism, andthis tokenism is really an
insult to us as a people and andand a sham before God.
And so he uses that phrase.
(04:23):
But then we don't pick up onall that he said before he got
to the phrase.
We pick up on just what thecups out mean, just what the let
justice roll down, and so wewear these t-shirts, but having
no intentions, in my opinion, ofactually doing it.
I remember when we had thewristbands and everything that,
what would Jesus do?
Nobody did what Jesus would do.
They just wrote a paraphernalia.
(04:46):
Is that what we do with LetJustice?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Roll Down.
I think you're on to something,Nettie.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, yeah, I think to a degree we have I mean,
especially in modern day, youknow, especially when we don't
understand things in itsbiblical and Christian context
and we just read it from kind ofmore secular perspectives or
even just more socialistphilosophies and, yeah, I think
that we have, to a degree, takenthat particular verse out of
(05:14):
context, because it's reallytalking about worship, worship
and neighborliness, and it'stalking specifically to God's
people, to God's people.
So I think that sloganism thatyou're talking about has really
found its way into the church insuch a way that we
decontextualize what thatpassage is really talking about.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Absolutely 100%.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
That's your intro man Into reading it.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Verse 18 says Woe to you who desire the day of the
Lord.
Why would you have the day ofthe Lord?
It is darkness and not light,as if a man fled from a lion and
a bear met him, or went intothe house and leaned his hand
against the wall and a serpentbit him.
It is not the day of the Lord.
Darkness and not light andgloom, with no brightness in it.
(06:02):
I hate, I despise your feast andI take no delight in your
solemn assemblies.
Even though you offer me yourburnt offerings and grain
offerings, I will not acceptthem.
And the peace offerings of yourfattened animals, I will not
look upon them.
Take away from me the noise ofyour songs.
To the melody of your harps Iwill not listen, but let justice
roll down like waters andrighteousness like an
(06:25):
ever-flowing stream.
Did you bring to me sacrificesand offerings during the 40
years in the wilderness?
O house of Israel, you shalltake up Sychoth, your king, your
star god, your images that youmade for yourselves, and I will
send you into exile beyondDamascus, says the Lord.
Whose name is the God of hosts,nettie Austin.
(06:45):
Why on earth would God hate ourfeast and our assemblies?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Because it doesn't actually form us in his likeness
, it's just meant for otherpurposes.
I think God is getting at that,or Amos is getting at that in
this particular passage.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Talk to me a little bit more about formation, okay.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I mean looking at what the whole purpose of the
law was, especially if you readthroughout Leviticus.
I'm not going to get into thedetails of any of that, but the
whole purpose, especially out inthe wilderness of God's people,
was to form them to be peoplewho would be worthy of receiving
the promised land, or receivingentrance into the promised land
(07:30):
and kind of divorce ourselves.
As understanding this as thevery formation of God's people,
then we essentially are takingthe direction that God has given
us.
We're using it to sing songsfor our own purposes, over and
against the reason why God hasus doing that, and that is so
(07:51):
that the people of Israel wouldbe the ones who would bring
forth God's rule and God'sredemption onto this earth.
So I think that we can't readthis particular passage without
understanding that the people ofIsrael were called to be set
apart from all other people onthe earth as those who would
(08:12):
bring God's redemption for thepurposes of all the nations.
Is that you have lost thatparticular reason why you do
everything so you can't havejustice and mercy if you're not
(08:37):
doing so with the mindset thatyou are set apart from the rest
of the world and that becauseyou're set apart from the rest
of the world.
You're called, then, to be theinstruments of justice and mercy
for the rest of the world, andthese songs, these rituals, are
not just for you and for yourattainment, but for all.
I mean, we get into this when weread passages like I don't know
(08:58):
Jeremiah 7, 5 through 7,.
It says If you truly amend yourways and your deeds, if you do
not oppress the sojourner, thefatherless or the widow, then I
will let uh, you dwell in thisplace.
You know, do not oppress thesojourner.
So you can be singing songs,you can be going through all of
(09:18):
these rituals, you can be havinga just, amazing, awesome
worship, that you know, all thecords are being struck perfectly
.
But if you're not embodying thevery reason why we're given
these rituals in the first place, which is to form us into being
(09:40):
more in the likeness of Godit's sanctification, to being
more in the likeness of God,it's sanctification Then it's
just.
Then why are we even doing this?
You're just, it's just like anyother religion on earth.
It's just like any other peoplegroup.
It's just like any other musicor practice that people have.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
It's for themselves instead of for the world.
Daddy, why on earth does Godhate and despise the feasts?
Austin has given us greatinsight.
What about you?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I was hoping he'd leave me something to say.
You know, as I look at this, Ithink about what God is upset
about is that they come in tooffer their or we, I should say,
offer our religious as Amos putit here religious festivals and
sacrifices, whilesimultaneously exploiting or
(10:36):
exploiting the poor people, themarginalized people, perverting
justice, doing all this crazystuff and everyday activity, and
then show up on Sunday and doan awesome job of performing a
great production of music inthree attributes, but nowhere
(11:01):
near our hearts, nowhere near atrue worship.
So in terms of understandingthat, so I think when we look at
this, understanding thispassage, we got to look at that
what is the true heart ofworship?
And the true heart of worshipis in me and how I do things.
I look at it from family, notonly the church, but from family
to friends, to the community,to the whole deal.
(11:23):
You know what are weemphasizing when we are dealing
with one another as families.
You know, honesty, integrity.
Those kinds of things are nottaking place.
According to Amos, we'reexploiting folks and taking
advantage of folks, andcertainly when he gets down to
the verse to talk aboutrighteousness and justice, let
it overflow.
I don't know, you know, when Iread that word justice, I looked
(11:47):
it up and you know what he'sreferring to here is fair and
equitable treatment of allpeople, especially the
marginalized and the poor, theoppressed and those.
It involved not only legalfairness, but also actively
correcting injustices, man, doyou?
You know it's, it's, it's froma modern day perspective I think
(12:11):
we are so engaged in well, I'mnot like that.
I'm not doing it, I would neverdo that, et cetera, et cetera.
But you said silently by Iremember you, you brought up
father the King.
I remember when the civilrights movement, all those
things going on and this youknow, the silence of the
(12:32):
majority as we have today, thesilence of the majority of
allowing things that areunrighteous, unjust, oppressed,
and all those things to takeplace.
But because we're notindividually involved or engaged
in it, we think it's, I guess,some kind of way we're
separating ourselves from it.
(12:52):
But in essence, god says youshow up here talking about how
much you love me and sayingthese one-off a song, but look
how you've done unto the leastof these or to one another, even
in the household and in thefamily.
I got a lot more I can sayabout it, but I think I'll stop
there.
And also let me just say thiswhen he talks about
let justice and righteousnessflow down.
(13:13):
He also is talking about Amosis talking about here.
Is that right relationships,living the way that reflects
God's character and love andhonesty, and all of those things
I'm talking.
Do we do that?
Do we love each other?
John 13, 34 and 35 just gotinto my mind immediately.
Do we love one another as hehas loved us, as he commands us
to love one another?
(13:34):
So that's the gist of what Ithink when I look at the
totality of this passage ofScripture, amos 18 through 27.
I think about reallyunderstanding what true worship
is, which take place before youget to the house of worship, if
(13:54):
you want to put it that way.
It takes place in our everydaylives and then in the family and
the church and community andall of that.
And so Amos is God is like he'sgot he's calling.
But Amos is God is like he'sgot, he's calling scathing,
reciting here over every area,every aspect of their lives.
Then you show up here he said Ihate that.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, I'm looking at you know, as I read Amosie are
describing a people that are ina position of plenty.
Verse one in chapter four hearthis word you cows of Bashan.
And it's this picture of thesevery full and hefty beings that
are on a mountain of plenty.
(14:48):
Bashan means fruitful and so,literally, it's this place of
plenty that they're grazing andgetting more than they need.
And so he says here this wordyou cows of Bashan, who are on
the mountains of Samaria, whooppress the poor, crush the
needy and say to your husbandsbring that, we may drink.
And so here is a people thatare in plenty, filled with all
(15:12):
that they need, grazing infruitful places for more.
And yet they're still sayinggive, give me, give me, give me.
And they're willing to oppressthose that lack, they're willing
to crush those that need inorder to have more and more and
more.
And yet, even in the midst ofall of that, they still are
(15:34):
making room for their holy days,they're still making room for
their great feasts and festivals, they're still practicing and
rehearsing so that they canperform their incredible and
elegant songs and offer up theirofferings.
And God is saying in chapterfive enough, enough, enough If
(15:55):
you have no regard for thosepeople that you look at eye to
eye on an ongoing basis, thepeople that you see on a day to
day basis, those that are inneed, that are right in front of
you.
You have no regard and noconcern for them, then when you
look up, it is disingenuous.
If you look out and feelnothing, then when you look up,
(16:20):
it's disingenuous.
And so, over and over again,what we see Austin to your point
even from the Old Testamentdrawing out what God is trying
to do in the formation of hispeople, in the law, all the way
through the New Testament withthe arrival of Christ, and what
Christ is trying to do in theestablishing of his church, is
(16:42):
he's trying to get a people tosee that our vertical worship
must be informed, see that ourvertical worship must be
informed, shaped and at timeseven flow out of our horizontal
regard and our horizontalconcern.
When we look up, it must comefrom a place of us looking out
into the lives of people aroundus and saying Lord, these are
(17:03):
your image bearers.
How am I engaged with them, howam I loving them, how am I
attending to their needs?
One more thing for me and thenI'll jump back to you guys.
But of course, in Matthewchapter five you see this
alignment as well, with thisideal of vertical regard,
vertical worship being beingshaped and formed by horizontal
(17:24):
regard.
And you see it in Matthewchapter five, in, oh my goodness
, I believe somewhere around 23,maybe, but the offering is
there.
The gentleman is in the placeof worship, in the house of
worship, he's bringing hisoffering to the altar and Jesus
(17:44):
says hey, if you are there andyou remember that your brother
has ought with you, right, ifyou, if you remember that there
is a disconnect horizontally, hesays leave your offering there,
even though, even though thisoffering is an act of worship,
leave it there and go and bereconciled.
Go and repair the breach that,that that that has been
(18:08):
experienced in relationship.
Go and repair that.
Why would Jesus say such a thing?
Because that is shaping thevertical, vertical, that
horizontal regard.
Horizontal relationships areshaping the vertical experience,
the vertical worship that wehave with God, and so you can't
(18:28):
disconnect worship from right,relationship and right and
malice towards your brothersthat you see every day.
(18:51):
The implication there is notpossible that we have to have a
commitment to horizontalrelationships if we are to
really have deep devotionvertically to our God in heaven.
What else stands out to you asyou guys are reading through
this text and looking at chapterfive?
(19:11):
This idea of festival and feastand offering Austin.
What else jumps out to you inthis passage?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yeah, well, I like what you were talking about.
You're bringing this back toJesus, and Jesus definitely
called out just the hollowreligion, particularly in
Matthew 23, 23,.
Woe to you, scribes andPharisees, hypocrites, for you
tithe mint and dill and cuminand have neglected the weightier
(19:38):
matters of the law, justice andmercy and faithfulness, those
you ought to have done withoutneglecting the others.
So this is probably one ofJesus's sharpest rebukes, and
he's giving it to the religionright, not to the pagans, not to
the outcasts, but to the veryones who are the religious
leaders of God's people, thepeople who knew Scripture the
(20:01):
best, the people who would haveknown what Amos would have said,
the people who should have beenreading these prophecies.
They lived in the temple, theywere absolutely meticulous in
their religious observances andthey're tithing everything, even
the herbs, even the mint, thedill, the cumin.
(20:21):
They're tithing with littletweezers.
They were measuring out everysingle bit of their obedience.
And Jesus says even thoughyou're so meticulous, even this,
even though you are so caughtup in this minutiae of the
religion, you've forgotten themission, the reason why this is
(20:42):
all important in the first place.
You've completely missed thepoint.
You're obsessed with holiness,so much so that you ignore the
heart of God.
Jesus doesn't really tell themto stop tithing, he just says
those you ought to have done,without neglecting the others.
You're doing only part andpartial of what you should be
(21:06):
doing.
So it's not against thediscipline, necessarily, but
it's against the distortion ofthe weightiness of why the
discipline matters in the firstplace.
You know he's saying really thediscipline, the activity of
what you're doing mattersbecause of the justice, because
of the mercy, because of thefaithfulness, because of the—and
(21:29):
this is exactly what Amos isreally saying just hundreds and
hundreds of years before you cantithe, you can fast, you can
quote the Bible, but if itdoesn't lead to mercy it's
really just kind of noise, it'sjust—it's piety without the
faithfulness to neighbor and toGod.
So he's really within his time.
(21:52):
Jesus is diagnosing thisspiritual disease, this disease
of religious performance, withabsolutely no love behind it,
with how much they're justmeasuring these small little
things.
So pretty much what thePharisees have done is they've
made it about control, purity,codes, appearance, all the while
(22:15):
ignoring the real plight andthe real problems that the poor
are going through, that the sickare having.
They're even shaming the sickto such a degree because they're
so caught up in the minutia ofthe law, casting aside the
sinner with no actionable planfor redemption for them, so
(22:35):
they've missed the streams ofjustice.
They've had it.
They put all these rules inplace and Jesus is just trying
to open that up, right?
So why are we so obsessed withthe minutia of the herbs that
you are tithing?
Why have you missed out on allof these really weighty matters?
(23:00):
So shouldn't your love, orshouldn't your worship, if it
was genuine, be something thatis leading to loving better?
Yes, a flicker standing up forthe voiceless?
Yes, so Jesus isn't asking usto abandon the spiritual
disciplines.
In fact, I think that's areally important balance that
(23:21):
Jesus is calling them to.
He's not calling them to gofrom one end, to swing the
pendulum so far to the next orthe other side, that aligning
ourselves with any ritual iswrong.
That's definitely not whatJesus is saying.
He's saying the rituals and thedisciplines are actually
significantly important, buthe's saying, hey, you really
need to align yourself withthings that are just that much
(23:45):
deeper, where our worship of Godand our love for people are one
and the same.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, yeah, you know, when I hear you describe, when
I hear you kind of walk throughthat also, and I'm thinking
several things that's runningthrough my mind.
One this idea that piety, thatpersonal piety that is void of
commitment to people, is trulyperformative and void of power,
(24:14):
that if this piety isn't pushingus towards a deeper expression
of mercy and love and justicefor a neighbor, then it is
powerless and performative.
That's a hard thing to hear,but I believe that's exactly
what Amos and what you're kindof describing.
(24:35):
I believe that's what we'regetting at Matthew 23, which you
just walked us through.
There's this idea that there'sa personal piety but it is
absent of regard for people.
Thus it is a performative andpowerless piety.
Even when we think aboutpassages or we think about
(24:58):
stories and narratives inScripture, for example Sodom and
Gomorrah and when we thinkabout Sodom and Gomorrah as it's
articulated in Genesis, what wetypically think about is the
experience that Lot has with themen, and there's this kind of
very sexual, exploitive andimmoral kind of act that's
(25:21):
trying to be committed andpeople are saying, okay, wait a
second.
That's where all the sin is inthis passage.
But then you look later on inEzekiel, chapter 16, verse 49,
and you hear this prophetic wordfrom Ezekiel, where he says now
, this was the sin of yoursister Sodom.
She and her daughters werearrogant, overfed and
(25:46):
unconcerned.
They did not help the poor,they did not help the needy,
they were haughty and diddetestable things before me.
And so oftentimes what we try todo is we try to relegate our
piety purely in forms ofsexuality and purely in forms of
(26:06):
what do I do with my tongue interms of what my speech, purely
in forms of what do I do as itrelates to substance abuse and
things of that nature.
But the reality is that pietyextends beyond that.
It's the arrogance that we walkin, or the refusal to check our
arrogance.
It's the refusal to check ouroverabundance and our lack of,
(26:30):
or our unwillingness to be ableto share when we've been
bountifully blessed.
It's our unwillingness to haveconcern and regard for those
that lack.
It's all of these things.
All of these things play intowhat is a true heart of worship
before God and how we reflectthat worship, and so an aim is
(26:51):
what God is showing us here isthat there should be personal
neighboring that is on display,that flows into worship, so that
when we are offering theseofferings, it's coming from a
place of me loving neighbor andhaving regard for people.
We are offering these offerings.
It's coming from a place of meloving neighbor and having
regard for people.
And when I'm singing thesesongs, it's coming from a place
of me loving neighbor and havingregard for people and from that
(27:14):
regard I'm bringing my worshipto the Lord and also out of that
worship I'm going back into theworld, loving my neighbor right
and so feeding it and it'senergizing it when I go back out
into the world.
Nettie, me and Austin have beentalking a lot so I don't feel
comfortable man, jump in andshare some thoughts we need to
hear from our older, wiserfriend Nettie Winters.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
You know, when I think about this passage in Amos
, also, I think about the fourthchapter that you referred to.
God has some real nice namesthat he referred to in terms of
that, but I think the peoplehere are eager to see God's
judgment come, but notunderstanding that when he comes
(27:57):
you're going to be the first inline.
You know you're going to be thefirst one to shoot, verse 18.
Yeah and so, really.
And so God's saying you reallydon't understand what you're
doing here.
You know, brian, you talk aboutloving neighbors and community.
(28:19):
To think, I guess in my mindI'm thinking.
I remember one time I waswalking across the camps at
Alcorn and I said to theprofessor well, how you doing?
He said let me tell you.
And I'm trying to get to class.
You know, I finally told himman, I'm just speaking.
(28:41):
I didn't want to hear your lifestory and all your ills and
stuff.
I just had to cut thisconversation so I could get to
class and I'm thinking I willget you know a tardy or whatever
the case might be, becausewhat's going on with you and
really have the intentionalityof really listening to it.
(29:02):
I'm telling you, even onFacebook, you know, people would
declare up front alert, smallalert, long text, right, long
post, long post, you know.
And then they'll post all ofthis stuff and they'll say, well
, I know no one's going to readit.
And they're right.
You know, if you get more than10 seconds, you can forget it.
(29:23):
So when you really ask someonehow you doing, are you willing
to invest this time to hear andappreciate and really be with
them and walk them through thatprocess?
What is your commitment to yourchildren?
He covers, as I said earlier,he covers the church, he covers
(29:44):
the family, he covers friends,he covers society, he covers the
community.
He covers friends, he coverssociety, he covers the community
, he covers neighbors I'm tryingto you name it, it's covered
here and he says you've done allthis stuff that you've done
across the week in our terms,and you show up here knowing
that people got out against youbecause you've overcharged them,
(30:05):
you've cheated them.
I'm having to change my creditcard because I bought something
online and it created the folks.
Not only did they not deliverwhat I bought and I purchased,
they're spending more than sevenor eight opportunities that
they're trying to get more outof my account.
(30:25):
So I had to close the account,change my credit card, do all
that to keep them fromcontinually sniping off.
And that's for me.
That is a picture of what Godis saying to us.
Here is that are you reallyloving your neighbor?
Are you really teaching yourkids to love God?
Are you teaching them to besuccessful?
(30:46):
You're teaching them to get acareer, make more money.
What are you teaching the kidsin terms of that?
How are you discipling yourfamily?
In other words, how is worshipat home?
I've gone into the cell block ofjails and ministered to these
young men.
It would be nothing but wantthem to say you know, my dad is
the reason I'm in jail and Isaid well, how so?
(31:08):
Well, he was a deacon at thechurch, but he wasn't a deacon
at home, and you know he's anactivist in the community or
wherever else and all thesethings, but none of it, made it
home, and so my dad is thereason I'm here.
And they're sitting theresaying, well, how I will get out
(31:28):
is I'm depending on my daddy.
And I'm saying, like, what makeyou think that if your daddy
calls you to be in here, thathe's going to get you out?
So so here God is saying you,showing up here, and what is the
what the analogy about?
On the way to church, the family.
On the way to church, the kidsare all over, the seats won't
(31:51):
stay in the seatbelt, it'schaotic in the car, and they
drive onto the parking lot andthe greeters approach them,
everybody's happy and everythingis wonderful, and let the
windows up when they leavebecause they're arguing out the
parking lot.
Those kinds of things is what Isee in modern day things that
(32:13):
we think more of our conveniencethan we do our relationship.
We think more of performanceand presentations and
productions over love.
We think more of just ignoringthings.
In fact, I think God saysthrough Amos he says how can you
(32:34):
come up in here and tell me howmuch you love me and how much I
mean to you and you aretolerating all of this
injustices, all of thisunrighteousness, all of this
stuff that's going on?
You know, I remember the GeorgeFloyd thing, right?
Well, what happened?
Everybody in America got aconscience.
(32:55):
For what?
Two weeks, the last two weeks.
You can ask most people todayabout George Floyd and I don't
even know if they'd evenremember the incident or what
surrounded that, the whole deal.
So what God is saying throughAmos is that that conscience we
had for that two weeks or twomonths or a year, however long,
(33:17):
we had the conscience about theinjustices and the inequalities
and you know, everybody'sjoining in.
A lot of new organizations, newmovements, activities and
things jumped up.
He said that should be alifestyle.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
That's a conscience shaped and informed by true
worship.
Nettie.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
That should be a lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
If worship is true, then that conscience should
follow it.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Absolutely.
And what happens is that whenworship is again performative,
when it's exclusively personal,to the detriment of the people
around you, then it ends upmoving in these kind of
temporary ebbs and flows wherethere's regard for people for,
like you said, two weeks, andthen the rest of the year
(34:09):
there's a disregard for people.
Or there's a moment where it'slike, oh, we're supposed to be
doing something for people thisweek, there's a special event,
so let's go out and try to dosomething, and then there's a
kind of disregard.
Oh, there's a season wherewe're supposed to be thinking
about unity and reconciliation,so let's think about
reconciliation, and then there'sthe rest of the life where we
disregard it.
But true worship should beshaping us into Austin Dr Hall's
(34:34):
point in the very beginning,forming us in such a way where
it begins to reshape ourconscience, so that regard for
people is ongoing and thatregard for the least is ongoing,
and that regard for racialhealing, reconciliation, unity
in the midst of our divisions.
(34:54):
It should be something that'songoing.
And so for me, as we wrap up andtry to put a bow on this, one
of the things that I'mchallenged by is how am I
allowing worship to shape theway I love neighbor.
When I think on God and I thinkon my regard in terms of my
(35:25):
commitment to extend my lifeover to him, do I also include
my commitment to the peoplearound me as a part of that
commitment to him, or do I tryto disconnect the two?
Do I say, hey, my commitment toGod has nothing to do with the
people around me?
Because I believe that to befalse, and I believe that's the
(35:47):
whole point behind passages likethe ones we find in Amos 5 and
Matthew 23,.
Is that your commitment to Godis in fact a commitment to
neighbor.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
If it is true, Exactly, yeah, yeah, and it kind
of reminds me of what Paul waswriting about in Romans 12 and
13, when he's talking aboutworship.
He's not beginning with music.
He doesn't even talk aboutsermons or candles or communion
bread, which is usually all ofthe items that I always hear
(36:19):
talking about any time I come tothe worship committee here at
my church.
But no problem with that.
It's just that's not where itbegins.
It begins with that mercy.
It begins with the sacrifice.
It begins with that capacity tobe able for people to connect
hearts, heart and heart, whichis just so significantly
important for us.
(36:40):
Because I think what was thisthe 12.1 talks about?
I appeal to you, therefore,brothers, by the mercies of God,
to present your bodies as aliving sacrifice, which is your
spiritual worship.
Worship for Paul is embodied.
It's not a feeling, it's a lifeoffered.
(37:02):
You don't just sing a song.
I think Christ is calling us tobecome the song.
You don't just attend worship,you live as worship.
So when you're talking aboutthese seasons where we remember
reconciliation, the season ofLent, where we remember the
sacrifice the Lord has made, sowe sacrifice ourselves, we don't
just do the action, we kind ofbecome that, we embody that and
(37:24):
I think that's in a large waysthat Paul is saying when he's
also subsequently in the nextverse, talking about how we do
not conform to this world butwe'd be transformed by the
renewal of our mind.
It's not an abstracttransformation, it's relational,
it forms how we live withothers, especially in our
(37:47):
neighbors.
And in the next chapter I thinkRomans 12, or the next, not the
next chapter, it's later inthat chapter actually but it's
talking about contributing tothe needs of the saints and to
show hospitality.
Worship in that embodiedworship shows up in our
generosity and our shared mealsand opening doors and making
(38:09):
spaces, renewing our minds,thinking differently, living
differently.
So all of these seasons you'retalking about, brian, are meant
for us to begin to embody thosevery spiritual disciplines in
every aspect of our lives.
And I think even Paul says thatthis doesn't just stop at our
(38:32):
church family, it doesn't juststop with people that we
understand to be kind of, ourselected neighbors, because I
think God is saying that allpersons are neighbors, persons,
(38:53):
our neighbors.
In 1214, it says bless thosewho persecute you, bless and do
not curse them and, if possible,so far as it depends on you,
live peaceably with all.
That's jumping a verse or two,I can't remember which one, but
it's really talking about howworship is teaching us not just
to show, not just how to loveour friends, how to even live
with our enemies.
I mean, there's sometimesrelationships that are so hurt,
(39:17):
so marred, so broken that evenif your heart is completely in
the correct place and you'veconformed your will for God's,
the other person may have someso much significant work that
they need to have.
But I would say, so long as youare being a peacemaker is you
are being a bridge builder inthat response and you have
(39:38):
opened up every avenue uh, thateven if those relationships have
not been fully reconciled, thatwe still pray for for God to be
able to work on that.
You know, and I think thatthat's kind of the.
You know, this is the very heartof, I think, christian worship
and it corresponds so perfectlywith Amos in this regard,
(40:04):
because where Amos is saying,crying out to people who are
religiously active but they'rekind of socially negligent, they
sing, they offer sacrifices,they gather at festivals, but
the poor are crushed, the widowsare forgotten, the courts are
rigged, the rich keep gettingricher without the capacity for
(40:28):
either innovation or helping outwith the other persons that are
in their midst.
I don't want it Turn it off.
If this worship doesn't becomean embodied worship, then don't
come to me with lifted handswhile your neighbor is lying in
the street.
Don't light candles in thesanctuary while you're letting
(40:49):
systems of greed and oppressiongo unchecked outside the doors.
So in a lot of ways, the truenature of Christian worship is
embodied in the passage of Amos5, I think Amen.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Amen.
You know.
Why does it matter?
Why is it important that wewalk in this embodied worship,
as Austin mentioned?
Why is it important?
Well, quite simply becausethat's the Savior that we
worship.
And the Savior that we worshipis not simply personally pious
in His walk on earth, but he isconstantly engaged with the
(41:26):
people around him, doing allmatters of good healing the sick
, raising the dead, encouragingthe brokenhearted, building up
binding wounds.
Our Savior demonstrates what itmeans to walk alongside him in
his life on earth, before us,and so, as we consider UWJD, in
(41:47):
the words of Nettie Winters,part of that consideration is
not just what we're doing interms of our personal, exclusive
piety between us and God, butour piety between us and God is
reflected in the way that weextend grace, mercy, love,
kindness, compassion, patienceto those around us.
(42:11):
So, gentlemen, it was a greatBible study pod.
I love doing Bible study podswith my friends.
I mentioned a couple of daysago that it's always dangerous
when you ask a charismatic and aMethodist and a Baptist to come
into a church and do Biblestudy, but it's always fruitful
when these, when, when thisthree characters get together
(42:32):
and do Bible study, so I'malways grateful for it.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
By the way if you would like to In this crowd I
was.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
I was a Baptist for the first twenty five years of
my life.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
I've already been here for 15 years.
Wasn't going to share who's who.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
I'm just saying that it's three characters.
These three characters walkinto a church and they have a
Bible study.
I wasn't going to tell thepeople who those characters are,
but, nevertheless, if you wouldlike to hear more of this
podcast, you can always do so bysubscribing to Living
Reconciled.
Go to any podcast app, searchfor Living Reconciled, and you
can do that.
Please feel free to not onlysubscribe, but please feel free
(43:10):
to share, and also share anyreviews, any feedback that you
have for us.
We are always looking forwardto hearing from you so that we
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And also, again, we would liketo thank our sponsors.
We would like to encourage youthat, if you want to sponsor
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(43:32):
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On behalf of Nettie Winters,austin Hoyle.
This is Brian Crawford signingoff, saying God bless.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
God bless.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
God bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
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please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
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Thanks again for listening, orcall us at 601-353-6477.
(44:08):
Thanks again for listening.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
I'm your host, brian Crawford,and I am with my very good
(00:35):
friends Nettie Winters, austinHoyle.
Gentlemen, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I'm good today.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Great, great, great no-transcript.
Great, great, great, excellent,excellent, excellent.
Before we get started, I wantto give a quick shout out to our
friends Mississippi College,anderson United Methodist Church
, grace Temple Church,mississippi State, real
Christian Foundation, nissan, stDominic's Atmos Energy, regents
Foundation, Brown MissionaryBaptist Church, christian Life
Church.
Ms Doris Powell, mr Robert Ward, ms Ann Winters, thank you so
(01:02):
much for everything that you doand supporting the Living
Reconciled podcast and MissionMississippi.
It's because of the things thatyou do, your generosity, that
we're able to do what we do andif you would like to join this
illustrious group in supportingthe work of Living Reconciled
(01:23):
and Mission Mississippi and thatwill give you an opportunity to
join in this work with yourfinancial contributions and
gifts.
In particular, as it is seen inAmos, chapter five, dr Martin
Luther King Jr.
Years ago, on several occasionshe mentioned one of the
(01:54):
passages or one of thescriptures in Amos that has
become very popular Amos,chapter five, verse 24.
One such occasion in which DrKing referenced this passage was
in his letter written from aBirmingham jail.
He said, quote no, no, we arenot satisfied and we will not be
satisfied until justice rollsdown like waters and
(02:17):
righteousness like a mightystream.
There have been occasions inwhich that particular phrase has
been used throughout historyand placed on shirts, coffee
cups, portraits in houses.
But I would like to look moredeeply behind that phrase and
look at what's underneath thatphrase in the book of Amos, the
(02:39):
minor prophet, Amos was a manwho had a very, very hard
message for Israel.
Amos was a man who had a very,very hard message for Israel,
and I want to see how thatmessage lands on the
contemporary church and how thatmessage lands on our particular
mission of encouragingbelievers in the work of
reconciliation.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And so, if you don't, mind Austin and Nettie and our
wonderful listeners.
I'll take a moment and I'llread that passage Just before
you dive in so deep and read thepassage.
Brother, you know, nitty,always have questions right or a
story or something, and so whyis it that you have a question
and a story today?
I'm going to try to limit it toa question.
Maybe I'll be above, I'm notsure.
Listen, you know we get cupsand t-shirts.
(03:25):
I remember having you know whatwas it.
Do what Jesus would do, yeah,wwjd.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
What would Jesus do?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
And this phrase of letting justice roll down.
You know, I remember the WWDJor whatever the acronym is.
It was a fad.
And I think the teacups andt-shirts that let justice roll
down like a migrant, I think itbecome a fad and I think it
become popular.
Because in that speech, king,we didn't get the essence.
(04:02):
I don't think we get theessence of what he was saying.
He was saying all that you'redoing to pass equal rights, to
give us a seat at the table, thewhole deal.
He says no, we're not satisfiedbecause you know, all what
you're doing is tokenism, andthis tokenism is really an
insult to us as a people and andand a sham before God.
And so he uses that phrase.
(04:23):
But then we don't pick up onall that he said before he got
to the phrase.
We pick up on just what thecups out mean, just what the let
justice roll down, and so wewear these t-shirts, but having
no intentions, in my opinion, ofactually doing it.
I remember when we had thewristbands and everything that,
what would Jesus do?
Nobody did what Jesus would do.
They just wrote a paraphernalia.
(04:46):
Is that what we do with LetJustice?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Roll Down.
I think you're on to something,Nettie.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, yeah, I think to a degree we have I mean,
especially in modern day, youknow, especially when we don't
understand things in itsbiblical and Christian context
and we just read it from kind ofmore secular perspectives or
even just more socialistphilosophies and, yeah, I think
that we have, to a degree, takenthat particular verse out of
(05:14):
context, because it's reallytalking about worship, worship
and neighborliness, and it'stalking specifically to God's
people, to God's people.
So I think that sloganism thatyou're talking about has really
found its way into the church insuch a way that we
decontextualize what thatpassage is really talking about.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Absolutely 100%.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
That's your intro man Into reading it.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Verse 18 says Woe to you who desire the day of the
Lord.
Why would you have the day ofthe Lord?
It is darkness and not light,as if a man fled from a lion and
a bear met him, or went intothe house and leaned his hand
against the wall and a serpentbit him.
It is not the day of the Lord.
Darkness and not light andgloom, with no brightness in it.
(06:02):
I hate, I despise your feast andI take no delight in your
solemn assemblies.
Even though you offer me yourburnt offerings and grain
offerings, I will not acceptthem.
And the peace offerings of yourfattened animals, I will not
look upon them.
Take away from me the noise ofyour songs.
To the melody of your harps Iwill not listen, but let justice
roll down like waters andrighteousness like an
(06:25):
ever-flowing stream.
Did you bring to me sacrificesand offerings during the 40
years in the wilderness?
O house of Israel, you shalltake up Sychoth, your king, your
star god, your images that youmade for yourselves, and I will
send you into exile beyondDamascus, says the Lord.
Whose name is the God of hosts,nettie Austin.
(06:45):
Why on earth would God hate ourfeast and our assemblies?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Because it doesn't actually form us in his likeness
, it's just meant for otherpurposes.
I think God is getting at that,or Amos is getting at that in
this particular passage.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Talk to me a little bit more about formation, okay.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I mean looking at what the whole purpose of the
law was, especially if you readthroughout Leviticus.
I'm not going to get into thedetails of any of that, but the
whole purpose, especially out inthe wilderness of God's people,
was to form them to be peoplewho would be worthy of receiving
the promised land, or receivingentrance into the promised land
(07:30):
and kind of divorce ourselves.
As understanding this as thevery formation of God's people,
then we essentially are takingthe direction that God has given
us.
We're using it to sing songsfor our own purposes, over and
against the reason why God hasus doing that, and that is so
(07:51):
that the people of Israel wouldbe the ones who would bring
forth God's rule and God'sredemption onto this earth.
So I think that we can't readthis particular passage without
understanding that the people ofIsrael were called to be set
apart from all other people onthe earth as those who would
(08:12):
bring God's redemption for thepurposes of all the nations.
Is that you have lost thatparticular reason why you do
everything so you can't havejustice and mercy if you're not
(08:37):
doing so with the mindset thatyou are set apart from the rest
of the world and that becauseyou're set apart from the rest
of the world.
You're called, then, to be theinstruments of justice and mercy
for the rest of the world, andthese songs, these rituals, are
not just for you and for yourattainment, but for all.
I mean, we get into this when weread passages like I don't know
(08:58):
Jeremiah 7, 5 through 7,.
It says If you truly amend yourways and your deeds, if you do
not oppress the sojourner, thefatherless or the widow, then I
will let uh, you dwell in thisplace.
You know, do not oppress thesojourner.
So you can be singing songs,you can be going through all of
(09:18):
these rituals, you can be havinga just, amazing, awesome
worship, that you know, all thecords are being struck perfectly
.
But if you're not embodying thevery reason why we're given
these rituals in the first place, which is to form us into being
(09:40):
more in the likeness of Godit's sanctification, to being
more in the likeness of God,it's sanctification Then it's
just.
Then why are we even doing this?
You're just, it's just like anyother religion on earth.
It's just like any other peoplegroup.
It's just like any other musicor practice that people have.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
It's for themselves instead of for the world.
Daddy, why on earth does Godhate and despise the feasts?
Austin has given us greatinsight.
What about you?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I was hoping he'd leave me something to say.
You know, as I look at this, Ithink about what God is upset
about is that they come in tooffer their or we, I should say,
offer our religious as Amos putit here religious festivals and
sacrifices, whilesimultaneously exploiting or
(10:36):
exploiting the poor people, themarginalized people, perverting
justice, doing all this crazystuff and everyday activity, and
then show up on Sunday and doan awesome job of performing a
great production of music inthree attributes, but nowhere
(11:01):
near our hearts, nowhere near atrue worship.
So in terms of understandingthat, so I think when we look at
this, understanding thispassage, we got to look at that
what is the true heart ofworship?
And the true heart of worshipis in me and how I do things.
I look at it from family, notonly the church, but from family
to friends, to the community,to the whole deal.
(11:23):
You know what are weemphasizing when we are dealing
with one another as families.
You know, honesty, integrity.
Those kinds of things are nottaking place.
According to Amos, we'reexploiting folks and taking
advantage of folks, andcertainly when he gets down to
the verse to talk aboutrighteousness and justice, let
it overflow.
I don't know, you know, when Iread that word justice, I looked
(11:47):
it up and you know what he'sreferring to here is fair and
equitable treatment of allpeople, especially the
marginalized and the poor, theoppressed and those.
It involved not only legalfairness, but also actively
correcting injustices, man, doyou?
You know it's, it's, it's froma modern day perspective I think
(12:11):
we are so engaged in well, I'mnot like that.
I'm not doing it, I would neverdo that, et cetera, et cetera.
But you said silently by Iremember you, you brought up
father the King.
I remember when the civilrights movement, all those
things going on and this youknow, the silence of the
(12:32):
majority as we have today, thesilence of the majority of
allowing things that areunrighteous, unjust, oppressed,
and all those things to takeplace.
But because we're notindividually involved or engaged
in it, we think it's, I guess,some kind of way we're
separating ourselves from it.
(12:52):
But in essence, god says youshow up here talking about how
much you love me and sayingthese one-off a song, but look
how you've done unto the leastof these or to one another, even
in the household and in thefamily.
I got a lot more I can sayabout it, but I think I'll stop
there.
And also let me just say thiswhen he talks about
let justice and righteousnessflow down.
(13:13):
He also is talking about Amosis talking about here.
Is that right relationships,living the way that reflects
God's character and love andhonesty, and all of those things
I'm talking.
Do we do that?
Do we love each other?
John 13, 34 and 35 just gotinto my mind immediately.
Do we love one another as hehas loved us, as he commands us
to love one another?
(13:34):
So that's the gist of what Ithink when I look at the
totality of this passage ofScripture, amos 18 through 27.
I think about reallyunderstanding what true worship
is, which take place before youget to the house of worship, if
(13:54):
you want to put it that way.
It takes place in our everydaylives and then in the family and
the church and community andall of that.
And so Amos is God is like he'sgot he's calling.
But Amos is God is like he'sgot, he's calling scathing,
reciting here over every area,every aspect of their lives.
Then you show up here he said Ihate that.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, I'm looking at you know, as I read Amosie are
describing a people that are ina position of plenty.
Verse one in chapter four hearthis word you cows of Bashan.
And it's this picture of thesevery full and hefty beings that
are on a mountain of plenty.
(14:48):
Bashan means fruitful and so,literally, it's this place of
plenty that they're grazing andgetting more than they need.
And so he says here this wordyou cows of Bashan, who are on
the mountains of Samaria, whooppress the poor, crush the
needy and say to your husbandsbring that, we may drink.
And so here is a people thatare in plenty, filled with all
(15:12):
that they need, grazing infruitful places for more.
And yet they're still sayinggive, give me, give me, give me.
And they're willing to oppressthose that lack, they're willing
to crush those that need inorder to have more and more and
more.
And yet, even in the midst ofall of that, they still are
(15:34):
making room for their holy days,they're still making room for
their great feasts and festivals, they're still practicing and
rehearsing so that they canperform their incredible and
elegant songs and offer up theirofferings.
And God is saying in chapterfive enough, enough, enough If
(15:55):
you have no regard for thosepeople that you look at eye to
eye on an ongoing basis, thepeople that you see on a day to
day basis, those that are inneed, that are right in front of
you.
You have no regard and noconcern for them, then when you
look up, it is disingenuous.
If you look out and feelnothing, then when you look up,
(16:20):
it's disingenuous.
And so, over and over again,what we see Austin to your point
even from the Old Testamentdrawing out what God is trying
to do in the formation of hispeople, in the law, all the way
through the New Testament withthe arrival of Christ, and what
Christ is trying to do in theestablishing of his church, is
(16:42):
he's trying to get a people tosee that our vertical worship
must be informed, see that ourvertical worship must be
informed, shaped and at timeseven flow out of our horizontal
regard and our horizontalconcern.
When we look up, it must comefrom a place of us looking out
into the lives of people aroundus and saying Lord, these are
(17:03):
your image bearers.
How am I engaged with them, howam I loving them, how am I
attending to their needs?
One more thing for me and thenI'll jump back to you guys.
But of course, in Matthewchapter five you see this
alignment as well, with thisideal of vertical regard,
vertical worship being beingshaped and formed by horizontal
(17:24):
regard.
And you see it in Matthewchapter five, in, oh my goodness
, I believe somewhere around 23,maybe, but the offering is
there.
The gentleman is in the placeof worship, in the house of
worship, he's bringing hisoffering to the altar and Jesus
(17:44):
says hey, if you are there andyou remember that your brother
has ought with you, right, ifyou, if you remember that there
is a disconnect horizontally, hesays leave your offering there,
even though, even though thisoffering is an act of worship,
leave it there and go and bereconciled.
Go and repair the breach that,that that that has been
(18:08):
experienced in relationship.
Go and repair that.
Why would Jesus say such a thing?
Because that is shaping thevertical, vertical, that
horizontal regard.
Horizontal relationships areshaping the vertical experience,
the vertical worship that wehave with God, and so you can't
(18:28):
disconnect worship from right,relationship and right and
malice towards your brothersthat you see every day.
(18:51):
The implication there is notpossible that we have to have a
commitment to horizontalrelationships if we are to
really have deep devotionvertically to our God in heaven.
What else stands out to you asyou guys are reading through
this text and looking at chapterfive?
(19:11):
This idea of festival and feastand offering Austin.
What else jumps out to you inthis passage?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yeah, well, I like what you were talking about.
You're bringing this back toJesus, and Jesus definitely
called out just the hollowreligion, particularly in
Matthew 23, 23,.
Woe to you, scribes andPharisees, hypocrites, for you
tithe mint and dill and cuminand have neglected the weightier
(19:38):
matters of the law, justice andmercy and faithfulness, those
you ought to have done withoutneglecting the others.
So this is probably one ofJesus's sharpest rebukes, and
he's giving it to the religionright, not to the pagans, not to
the outcasts, but to the veryones who are the religious
leaders of God's people, thepeople who knew Scripture the
(20:01):
best, the people who would haveknown what Amos would have said,
the people who should have beenreading these prophecies.
They lived in the temple, theywere absolutely meticulous in
their religious observances andthey're tithing everything, even
the herbs, even the mint, thedill, the cumin.
(20:21):
They're tithing with littletweezers.
They were measuring out everysingle bit of their obedience.
And Jesus says even thoughyou're so meticulous, even this,
even though you are so caughtup in this minutiae of the
religion, you've forgotten themission, the reason why this is
(20:42):
all important in the first place.
You've completely missed thepoint.
You're obsessed with holiness,so much so that you ignore the
heart of God.
Jesus doesn't really tell themto stop tithing, he just says
those you ought to have done,without neglecting the others.
You're doing only part andpartial of what you should be
(21:06):
doing.
So it's not against thediscipline, necessarily, but
it's against the distortion ofthe weightiness of why the
discipline matters in the firstplace.
You know he's saying really thediscipline, the activity of
what you're doing mattersbecause of the justice, because
of the mercy, because of thefaithfulness, because of the—and
(21:29):
this is exactly what Amos isreally saying just hundreds and
hundreds of years before you cantithe, you can fast, you can
quote the Bible, but if itdoesn't lead to mercy it's
really just kind of noise, it'sjust—it's piety without the
faithfulness to neighbor and toGod.
So he's really within his time.
(21:52):
Jesus is diagnosing thisspiritual disease, this disease
of religious performance, withabsolutely no love behind it,
with how much they're justmeasuring these small little
things.
So pretty much what thePharisees have done is they've
made it about control, purity,codes, appearance, all the while
(22:15):
ignoring the real plight andthe real problems that the poor
are going through, that the sickare having.
They're even shaming the sickto such a degree because they're
so caught up in the minutia ofthe law, casting aside the
sinner with no actionable planfor redemption for them, so
(22:35):
they've missed the streams ofjustice.
They've had it.
They put all these rules inplace and Jesus is just trying
to open that up, right?
So why are we so obsessed withthe minutia of the herbs that
you are tithing?
Why have you missed out on allof these really weighty matters?
(23:00):
So shouldn't your love, orshouldn't your worship, if it
was genuine, be something thatis leading to loving better?
Yes, a flicker standing up forthe voiceless?
Yes, so Jesus isn't asking usto abandon the spiritual
disciplines.
In fact, I think that's areally important balance that
(23:21):
Jesus is calling them to.
He's not calling them to gofrom one end, to swing the
pendulum so far to the next orthe other side, that aligning
ourselves with any ritual iswrong.
That's definitely not whatJesus is saying.
He's saying the rituals and thedisciplines are actually
significantly important, buthe's saying, hey, you really
need to align yourself withthings that are just that much
(23:45):
deeper, where our worship of Godand our love for people are one
and the same.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, yeah, you know, when I hear you describe, when
I hear you kind of walk throughthat also, and I'm thinking
several things that's runningthrough my mind.
One this idea that piety, thatpersonal piety that is void of
commitment to people, is trulyperformative and void of power,
(24:14):
that if this piety isn't pushingus towards a deeper expression
of mercy and love and justicefor a neighbor, then it is
powerless and performative.
That's a hard thing to hear,but I believe that's exactly
what Amos and what you're kindof describing.
(24:35):
I believe that's what we'regetting at Matthew 23, which you
just walked us through.
There's this idea that there'sa personal piety but it is
absent of regard for people.
Thus it is a performative andpowerless piety.
Even when we think aboutpassages or we think about
(24:58):
stories and narratives inScripture, for example Sodom and
Gomorrah and when we thinkabout Sodom and Gomorrah as it's
articulated in Genesis, what wetypically think about is the
experience that Lot has with themen, and there's this kind of
very sexual, exploitive andimmoral kind of act that's
(25:21):
trying to be committed andpeople are saying, okay, wait a
second.
That's where all the sin is inthis passage.
But then you look later on inEzekiel, chapter 16, verse 49,
and you hear this prophetic wordfrom Ezekiel, where he says now
, this was the sin of yoursister Sodom.
She and her daughters werearrogant, overfed and
(25:46):
unconcerned.
They did not help the poor,they did not help the needy,
they were haughty and diddetestable things before me.
And so oftentimes what we try todo is we try to relegate our
piety purely in forms ofsexuality and purely in forms of
(26:06):
what do I do with my tongue interms of what my speech, purely
in forms of what do I do as itrelates to substance abuse and
things of that nature.
But the reality is that pietyextends beyond that.
It's the arrogance that we walkin, or the refusal to check our
arrogance.
It's the refusal to check ouroverabundance and our lack of,
(26:30):
or our unwillingness to be ableto share when we've been
bountifully blessed.
It's our unwillingness to haveconcern and regard for those
that lack.
It's all of these things.
All of these things play intowhat is a true heart of worship
before God and how we reflectthat worship, and so an aim is
(26:51):
what God is showing us here isthat there should be personal
neighboring that is on display,that flows into worship, so that
when we are offering theseofferings, it's coming from a
place of me loving neighbor andhaving regard for people.
We are offering these offerings.
It's coming from a place of meloving neighbor and having
regard for people.
And when I'm singing thesesongs, it's coming from a place
of me loving neighbor and havingregard for people and from that
(27:14):
regard I'm bringing my worshipto the Lord and also out of that
worship I'm going back into theworld, loving my neighbor right
and so feeding it and it'senergizing it when I go back out
into the world.
Nettie, me and Austin have beentalking a lot so I don't feel
comfortable man, jump in andshare some thoughts we need to
hear from our older, wiserfriend Nettie Winters.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
You know, when I think about this passage in Amos
, also, I think about the fourthchapter that you referred to.
God has some real nice namesthat he referred to in terms of
that, but I think the peoplehere are eager to see God's
judgment come, but notunderstanding that when he comes
(27:57):
you're going to be the first inline.
You know you're going to be thefirst one to shoot, verse 18.
Yeah and so, really.
And so God's saying you reallydon't understand what you're
doing here.
You know, brian, you talk aboutloving neighbors and community.
(28:19):
To think, I guess in my mindI'm thinking.
I remember one time I waswalking across the camps at
Alcorn and I said to theprofessor well, how you doing?
He said let me tell you.
And I'm trying to get to class.
You know, I finally told himman, I'm just speaking.
(28:41):
I didn't want to hear your lifestory and all your ills and
stuff.
I just had to cut thisconversation so I could get to
class and I'm thinking I willget you know a tardy or whatever
the case might be, becausewhat's going on with you and
really have the intentionalityof really listening to it.
(29:02):
I'm telling you, even onFacebook, you know, people would
declare up front alert, smallalert, long text, right, long
post, long post, you know.
And then they'll post all ofthis stuff and they'll say, well
, I know no one's going to readit.
And they're right.
You know, if you get more than10 seconds, you can forget it.
(29:23):
So when you really ask someonehow you doing, are you willing
to invest this time to hear andappreciate and really be with
them and walk them through thatprocess?
What is your commitment to yourchildren?
He covers, as I said earlier,he covers the church, he covers
(29:44):
the family, he covers friends,he covers society, he covers the
community.
He covers friends, he coverssociety, he covers the community
, he covers neighbors I'm tryingto you name it, it's covered
here and he says you've done allthis stuff that you've done
across the week in our terms,and you show up here knowing
that people got out against youbecause you've overcharged them,
(30:05):
you've cheated them.
I'm having to change my creditcard because I bought something
online and it created the folks.
Not only did they not deliverwhat I bought and I purchased,
they're spending more than sevenor eight opportunities that
they're trying to get more outof my account.
(30:25):
So I had to close the account,change my credit card, do all
that to keep them fromcontinually sniping off.
And that's for me.
That is a picture of what Godis saying to us.
Here is that are you reallyloving your neighbor?
Are you really teaching yourkids to love God?
Are you teaching them to besuccessful?
(30:46):
You're teaching them to get acareer, make more money.
What are you teaching the kidsin terms of that?
How are you discipling yourfamily?
In other words, how is worshipat home?
I've gone into the cell block ofjails and ministered to these
young men.
It would be nothing but wantthem to say you know, my dad is
the reason I'm in jail and Isaid well, how so?
(31:08):
Well, he was a deacon at thechurch, but he wasn't a deacon
at home, and you know he's anactivist in the community or
wherever else and all thesethings, but none of it, made it
home, and so my dad is thereason I'm here.
And they're sitting theresaying, well, how I will get out
(31:28):
is I'm depending on my daddy.
And I'm saying, like, what makeyou think that if your daddy
calls you to be in here, thathe's going to get you out?
So so here God is saying you,showing up here, and what is the
what the analogy about?
On the way to church, the family.
On the way to church, the kidsare all over, the seats won't
(31:51):
stay in the seatbelt, it'schaotic in the car, and they
drive onto the parking lot andthe greeters approach them,
everybody's happy and everythingis wonderful, and let the
windows up when they leavebecause they're arguing out the
parking lot.
Those kinds of things is what Isee in modern day things that
(32:13):
we think more of our conveniencethan we do our relationship.
We think more of performanceand presentations and
productions over love.
We think more of just ignoringthings.
In fact, I think God saysthrough Amos he says how can you
(32:34):
come up in here and tell me howmuch you love me and how much I
mean to you and you aretolerating all of this
injustices, all of thisunrighteousness, all of this
stuff that's going on?
You know, I remember the GeorgeFloyd thing, right?
Well, what happened?
Everybody in America got aconscience.
(32:55):
For what?
Two weeks, the last two weeks.
You can ask most people todayabout George Floyd and I don't
even know if they'd evenremember the incident or what
surrounded that, the whole deal.
So what God is saying throughAmos is that that conscience we
had for that two weeks or twomonths or a year, however long,
(33:17):
we had the conscience about theinjustices and the inequalities
and you know, everybody'sjoining in.
A lot of new organizations, newmovements, activities and
things jumped up.
He said that should be alifestyle.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
That's a conscience shaped and informed by true
worship.
Nettie.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
That should be a lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
If worship is true, then that conscience should
follow it.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Absolutely.
And what happens is that whenworship is again performative,
when it's exclusively personal,to the detriment of the people
around you, then it ends upmoving in these kind of
temporary ebbs and flows wherethere's regard for people for,
like you said, two weeks, andthen the rest of the year
(34:09):
there's a disregard for people.
Or there's a moment where it'slike, oh, we're supposed to be
doing something for people thisweek, there's a special event,
so let's go out and try to dosomething, and then there's a
kind of disregard.
Oh, there's a season wherewe're supposed to be thinking
about unity and reconciliation,so let's think about
reconciliation, and then there'sthe rest of the life where we
disregard it.
But true worship should beshaping us into Austin Dr Hall's
(34:34):
point in the very beginning,forming us in such a way where
it begins to reshape ourconscience, so that regard for
people is ongoing and thatregard for the least is ongoing,
and that regard for racialhealing, reconciliation, unity
in the midst of our divisions.
(34:54):
It should be something that'songoing.
And so for me, as we wrap up andtry to put a bow on this, one
of the things that I'mchallenged by is how am I
allowing worship to shape theway I love neighbor.
When I think on God and I thinkon my regard in terms of my
(35:25):
commitment to extend my lifeover to him, do I also include
my commitment to the peoplearound me as a part of that
commitment to him, or do I tryto disconnect the two?
Do I say, hey, my commitment toGod has nothing to do with the
people around me?
Because I believe that to befalse, and I believe that's the
(35:47):
whole point behind passages likethe ones we find in Amos 5 and
Matthew 23,.
Is that your commitment to Godis in fact a commitment to
neighbor.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
If it is true, Exactly, yeah, yeah, and it kind
of reminds me of what Paul waswriting about in Romans 12 and
13, when he's talking aboutworship.
He's not beginning with music.
He doesn't even talk aboutsermons or candles or communion
bread, which is usually all ofthe items that I always hear
(36:19):
talking about any time I come tothe worship committee here at
my church.
But no problem with that.
It's just that's not where itbegins.
It begins with that mercy.
It begins with the sacrifice.
It begins with that capacity tobe able for people to connect
hearts, heart and heart, whichis just so significantly
important for us.
(36:40):
Because I think what was thisthe 12.1 talks about?
I appeal to you, therefore,brothers, by the mercies of God,
to present your bodies as aliving sacrifice, which is your
spiritual worship.
Worship for Paul is embodied.
It's not a feeling, it's a lifeoffered.
(37:02):
You don't just sing a song.
I think Christ is calling us tobecome the song.
You don't just attend worship,you live as worship.
So when you're talking aboutthese seasons where we remember
reconciliation, the season ofLent, where we remember the
sacrifice the Lord has made, sowe sacrifice ourselves, we don't
just do the action, we kind ofbecome that, we embody that and
(37:24):
I think that's in a large waysthat Paul is saying when he's
also subsequently in the nextverse, talking about how we do
not conform to this world butwe'd be transformed by the
renewal of our mind.
It's not an abstracttransformation, it's relational,
it forms how we live withothers, especially in our
(37:47):
neighbors.
And in the next chapter I thinkRomans 12, or the next, not the
next chapter, it's later inthat chapter actually but it's
talking about contributing tothe needs of the saints and to
show hospitality.
Worship in that embodiedworship shows up in our
generosity and our shared mealsand opening doors and making
(38:09):
spaces, renewing our minds,thinking differently, living
differently.
So all of these seasons you'retalking about, brian, are meant
for us to begin to embody thosevery spiritual disciplines in
every aspect of our lives.
And I think even Paul says thatthis doesn't just stop at our
(38:32):
church family, it doesn't juststop with people that we
understand to be kind of, ourselected neighbors, because I
think God is saying that allpersons are neighbors, persons,
(38:53):
our neighbors.
In 1214, it says bless thosewho persecute you, bless and do
not curse them and, if possible,so far as it depends on you,
live peaceably with all.
That's jumping a verse or two,I can't remember which one, but
it's really talking about howworship is teaching us not just
to show, not just how to loveour friends, how to even live
with our enemies.
I mean, there's sometimesrelationships that are so hurt,
(39:17):
so marred, so broken that evenif your heart is completely in
the correct place and you'veconformed your will for God's,
the other person may have someso much significant work that
they need to have.
But I would say, so long as youare being a peacemaker is you
are being a bridge builder inthat response and you have
(39:38):
opened up every avenue uh, thateven if those relationships have
not been fully reconciled, thatwe still pray for for God to be
able to work on that.
You know, and I think thatthat's kind of the.
You know, this is the very heartof, I think, christian worship
and it corresponds so perfectlywith Amos in this regard,
(40:04):
because where Amos is saying,crying out to people who are
religiously active but they'rekind of socially negligent, they
sing, they offer sacrifices,they gather at festivals, but
the poor are crushed, the widowsare forgotten, the courts are
rigged, the rich keep gettingricher without the capacity for
(40:28):
either innovation or helping outwith the other persons that are
in their midst.
I don't want it Turn it off.
If this worship doesn't becomean embodied worship, then don't
come to me with lifted handswhile your neighbor is lying in
the street.
Don't light candles in thesanctuary while you're letting
(40:49):
systems of greed and oppressiongo unchecked outside the doors.
So in a lot of ways, the truenature of Christian worship is
embodied in the passage of Amos5, I think Amen.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Amen.
You know.
Why does it matter?
Why is it important that wewalk in this embodied worship,
as Austin mentioned?
Why is it important?
Well, quite simply becausethat's the Savior that we
worship.
And the Savior that we worshipis not simply personally pious
in His walk on earth, but he isconstantly engaged with the
(41:26):
people around him, doing allmatters of good healing the sick
, raising the dead, encouragingthe brokenhearted, building up
binding wounds.
Our Savior demonstrates what itmeans to walk alongside him in
his life on earth, before us,and so, as we consider UWJD, in
(41:47):
the words of Nettie Winters,part of that consideration is
not just what we're doing interms of our personal, exclusive
piety between us and God, butour piety between us and God is
reflected in the way that weextend grace, mercy, love,
kindness, compassion, patienceto those around us.
(42:11):
So, gentlemen, it was a greatBible study pod.
I love doing Bible study podswith my friends.
I mentioned a couple of daysago that it's always dangerous
when you ask a charismatic and aMethodist and a Baptist to come
into a church and do Biblestudy, but it's always fruitful
when these, when, when thisthree characters get together
(42:32):
and do Bible study, so I'malways grateful for it.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
By the way if you would like to In this crowd I
was.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
I was a Baptist for the first twenty five years of
my life.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
I've already been here for 15 years.
Wasn't going to share who's who.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
I'm just saying that it's three characters.
These three characters walkinto a church and they have a
Bible study.
I wasn't going to tell thepeople who those characters are,
but, nevertheless, if you wouldlike to hear more of this
podcast, you can always do so bysubscribing to Living
Reconciled.
Go to any podcast app, searchfor Living Reconciled, and you
can do that.
Please feel free to not onlysubscribe, but please feel free
(43:10):
to share, and also share anyreviews, any feedback that you
have for us.
We are always looking forwardto hearing from you so that we
can grow as a podcast.
And also, again, we would liketo thank our sponsors.
We would like to encourage youthat, if you want to sponsor
this podcast, please go tomissionmississippiorg and click
on the donate button, the investbutton on the top right, and
(43:32):
that will allow you access tosow into this work, not just the
podcast, but all the work thatMission Mississippi is doing
around the state and beyond.
On behalf of Nettie Winters,austin Hoyle.
This is Brian Crawford signingoff, saying God bless.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
God bless.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
God bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening, orcall us at 601-353-6477.
(44:08):
Thanks again for listening.
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