April 9, 2025 • 39 mins
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Elizabeth Perkins, daughter of civil rights legend Dr. John Perkins and co-president of the Perkins Foundation, shares what it was like growing up in the heart of the movement. From family dinners with Fannie Lou Hamer to navigating her own journey of faith and justice, Elizabeth reflects on the legacy her parents built—and the work still ahead. She challenges us to move beyond diversity toward true reconciliation: deep, cross-racial relationships grounded in love and truth. Through stories from the Perkins Justice Pilgrimage and her own experiences, Elizabeth reminds us that healing often begins with pain—and that faith, community, and courage are essential to lasting change.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
I'm your host, Brian Crawford,with one of my friends and
(00:34):
hopefully the other friend willbe able to join shortly Austin
Hoyle, but Nettie Winters, he'shere with me, so that still
makes me feel good.
Nettie, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm great man.
I'm excited, I see Elizabethand I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Absolutely.
We are incredibly excited tohave our guest this morning with
us, ms Elizabeth Perkins.
But before we get to ourinterview with Elizabeth, we do
want to give a quick shout outto our friends and sponsors,
folks like Mississippi College,anderson, united Methodist
Church, grace Temple Church,mississippi State, real
(01:08):
Christian Foundation, nissan, stDominic Hospital, atmos Energy,
regents Foundation, brownMissionary Baptist Church,
christian Life Church, ms DorisPowell, robert Ward and Winters.
Thank you guys so much foreverything that you do.
Because of you we are able todo the things that we do, and
today what we are doing is weare talking to the great
(01:32):
Elizabeth Perkins.
Elizabeth, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I don't know about all that great stuff, but thank
you, I'm excited to be here andtalk with y'all.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
We are excited to have you.
Elizabeth Perkins is theco-president of John and Vera
Mae Perkins Foundation.
She has an incredible,incredible calling and
incredible story over her life.
She loves Jesus, she lovesreconciliation, discipleship and
justice.
Has 25 years of ministryexperience, pouring into the
(02:02):
lives of both men and womenmentoring, coaching, discipling,
you name it.
Elizabeth has done it.
She has spoken, of course,across our state, but it has
also spoken across our country,and so we get a chance to hear a
ton, a ton from Elizabeth todaythat we are really, really,
really excited about.
So, elizabeth, again, thank youso much for joining us on this
(02:26):
episode of Living Reconciled.
I want to jump right in and askyou a question that I'm sure
you get a lot, because you grewup in the shadow of one of the
most significant civil rightsvoices, not simply in our state,
but one of the most significantcivil rights voices in our
(02:46):
country, and so, out of the gate, what is it like being raised
by Dr John Perkins, and how didthat life following behind him
or watching and observing howdid that life shape your
understanding of Jesus's callfor reconciliation?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
First I want to say thank you for having me, and one
of the things that shade doesis protect.
Shade covers us, shade protectsus.
So, growing up in that shadow,there was protection.
In that shadow, there wasprotection.
(03:31):
There also was, you know, a lotof things going on in my family
, because it was, you know, wegrew up during a time where this
, during the civil rights era myparents were needy in the
movement, and so there were.
You know, everybody knows thestory about my dad being beat up
and all that stuff.
But prior to that, one of thethings, one of the greatest
(03:52):
things as an adult, I thinkabout now is the people who came
through our home.
I look back and I startthinking about Fannie.
Lou Hamer came through my house.
You know, charles Eversprotected our house.
The deacons of defense, youknow they sat out on our porch.
And so now, as an adult, when Ilook back, benny Thompson was
(04:13):
one of the students marching,you know.
And so when I, as an adult, nowthat I look back, I see
everything a bit different.
But the facts are still thefacts.
But my appreciation of being apart of this legacy is grown and
greater now.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
When you, when I mean that that that is compelling,
just to just to hear that whenyou, when you said it, fannie
Lou Hamer came to my house Right.
Benny Thompson was at my house.
Megha Evers was at my house.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Charles Evers, not Megha Evers.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Charles Evers, thank you, thank you, charles Evers
was at my house protecting.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Yeah, megha, evers and Kiel.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Right protecting my house.
Thank you for that correction.
But when you say that obviouslyas a child, that can't land on
you like it does as an adult, Imean, how do you recap that
experience, thinking about itnow versus thinking about it
when you were a kid and you hadall of these iconic civil rights
(05:23):
men and women coming throughyour home and interacting with
your family?
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Well, I knew, as a child, I knew something
important was going on, and andI hung around with my mom all
the time and my mother had thisdisposition of worry, and so I
knew something was going on.
And then we would get phonecalls, you know, and my mother
(05:51):
would answer the phone and therewould be things on, you know,
people on the other end sayingis that Ian dead?
Yet you know, and so, and thenshe would get off and I would
see her face.
And so, you know, having thesepeople come through as an, as a
child, as a child, I knewsomething was going on, but as
an adult, now that I know whatwas going on, my appreciation is
(06:14):
just like you know, man, thankyou God for putting me in this,
in this family, cause sometimes,you know, as a teenager, I
don't want to be in this family.
But now I understand and youknow, and, as a teenager, one of
the things that you know youhave, you're trying to find out
(06:41):
who you are.
And I also wanted time with mydad, and, because God had this
call on his life, he was verybusy and so there were times
where I had to pull him away,and I remember this one pic
photo of me.
We're standing out inMendenhall in front of the yard
and I'm just leaning up againsthim while he's talking to
(07:02):
another man.
That's the attention that Iwanted from him, but yet he's
hugging me.
So I'm getting that attentionin his special way, but knowing
he couldn't stop.
But I didn't know he couldn'tstop.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Right, that's a good segue to another question that I
have really for you, elizabeth,and I mean you've already kind
of given us a peek and a glimpseinto your family's story and
your family's background.
But obviously, you know,there's the public persona, but
then there's the then, thenthere's the family persona that
(07:40):
speaks to the movement, thatspeaks to the passion that your
father and your mother had as itrelates to reconciliation.
So you know, obviously it's notjust born in a vacuum.
There are things that arehappening in your own personal
story that keeps the fireburning, so to speak.
So could you speak to some ofthose moments where it was?
(08:03):
It was a little, the light wasdim, but the family had to
huddle up and kind of find thatenergy and find that strength
from God to keep going, so tospeak.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, during the 60s my older siblings integrated the
white school in Mendenhall andso that was a tough time where
my brothers were like littlesoldiers who wanted to do it
because daddy said, you know,this is something that needs to
be done, whereas my older sister, johnny, was like she knew more
(08:35):
, so she knew the danger and sheknew what it was going to be
like going to those schools andand.
But you know, we came to thehuddle and the huddle said let's
go, you know let's.
And we, we got together andthey went.
I was too young to go to schooland they survived.
And as they look back on it nowthey said you know, they're
(09:00):
happy they did it.
It was a tough.
It was tough, you know.
Just think about right nowputting your child in a school
to integrate the school.
Now fast forward.
In eighth grade I went away toboarding school because my
parents were traveling, and notbecause I was that kind of kid,
but because I was travelingbecause they were traveling.
(09:21):
And that school I was the onlyblack at that school.
The first year it was two of us.
The second and third year itwas just me, and the fourth year
a boy came.
And so, looking back on what mysiblings had to do, I then was
like, ok, I got to be brave andgo to this school that has all
(09:42):
these, you know, only has whitepeople, has all these, you know,
only has white people, and sobeing in the family like this it
teaches you, okay, what youhave to do and you're going to
survive.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
And in the end.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
it was fun for me, but anyway, yeah, I think that
you know, when my brother, myfather, was tortured in the
Brandon jail, that kind ofshaped all of us, you know,
because it was a traumatic eventin our lives.
You know, thinking that youknow your father may die, but in
(10:24):
the end you know he survivedand he forgave those people.
You know he survived and heforgave those people.
And so, watching that now thinkabout me, watching that, what I
, what I had to do once I, onceI, um, chose Jesus for myself
and understanding whatforgiveness is.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
I had, I've had these examples in front of me of
justice, of reconciliation, ofmoving past hate.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
And so it's been a journey.
It's been a journey and mymother.
She quietly shaped livesthrough her Good News Club.
She worked in the office, shedid all the office work and
hospitality.
Yes, yes, she would bringpeople into her house and, you
know, shape them and shape, andthen she shaped us too.
(11:18):
But one of the things that Iwant to say about that is when I
think about the luncheons oneof my things if y'all ever see
me at the luncheon, you alwayssee me running around.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
And this is for the listeners on that might not be
familiar.
These are monthly lunches thatare hosted at the Perkins House
there in Jackson and so verymuch a very hospitable
experience.
Table set up for people to kindof have dialogue and
conversation, typically a guestspeaker, but a very hospitable
(11:52):
moment.
So yeah, elizabeth, just wantto set the context up for those
that are listening.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And that's where that comes from Anybody who dots
your door.
You need to be hospitable, youneed to be loving, you need to
be kind and offer them some goodfood If you know, we always
have good food at these places.
You know, I just can't help it.
You know, um, but that's whatshe poured into me.
And she was, uh, the strengthbehind the scenes you know we
(12:20):
talk about.
My dad had this undeniablestrength when he got beat up and
after he got out, she, daddy,went to her and said, you know,
cause it was another March onthe horizon got beat up.
And after he got out, daddywent to her and said, you know,
because it was another march onthe horizon, but he was too weak
to lead it.
And he went to her and said youhave to lead the march today.
(12:42):
And just imagine a woman backthen leading the march and of
course, she had some protectionaround her, but she had to step
up, and so she was this strengthbehind the scenes that we don't
(13:03):
really talk a lot about.
And I always want to talk aboutmy siblings too.
You know they are my heroes andsheroes.
Integrating the school wasn'teasy and it had some lasting
effects on them.
You know that they've had towork through, and so I don't
(13:28):
ever want to forget about.
This was a family affair.
This journey of reconciliationand justice has been a family
affair.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Talk about your ministry now how that transition
and that contrast what you justgave us, how that transition
into the ministry you have now.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Well, first of all, I never thought, being the eighth
child, that I would ever beleading the Perkins ministry.
There were so many people aheadof me to do it and so, but I
know God has called me at thistime and this moment to co-lead
(14:06):
with my sister, priscilla.
My sister, it was three of us.
My sister Deborah, retired inFebruary, and so now it's
Priscilla and I co-leading, andyou know, we want to equip and
develop leaders who will liveout the, you know, the lifestyle
of reconciliation, thelifestyle of justice, not just
(14:29):
talk about it, you know, and sothat's what our vision and our
mission is for the foundation,you know.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Elizabeth, what does reconciliation look like for you
right now, in this moment?
I mean, obviously, when we talkabout Doc and Mama Vera,
reconciliation looked likesomething totally different than
what it does today.
And let me back up and just sayshout out to Mama Vera again,
(15:04):
because every good civil rightsmovement had incredibly strong,
strong, strong women, either inthe forefront or behind the
scenes, like you said, just thepower of hospitality and how
that was so, how that nourishedand refreshed and energized and
(15:25):
encouraged and charged up thosethat were running back to the
front lines, the vocal speakersand all that kind of stuff.
And so shout out to just theincredible, incredible women,
whether they were on the frontlines, whether they were behind
the scenes, whether they were,you know, wherever they were,
that movement was made possibleby God's grace at work through
(15:48):
them.
But yeah, as you think aboutreconciliation in this season
versus reconciliation in theseasons that preceded us, what
does it look like to you today?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
A lot of the same.
You know, it's about restoringbroken relationships, and we see
in our country how ourrelationships are broken, and
it's not just about unity, it'sabout truth and healing and the
(16:20):
work of working hard together inlove.
So reconciliation is notoptional, it's a biblical
mandate.
See, sometimes we act as ifit's optional and not
understanding that this is thatthe Bible tells us.
(16:40):
You know, this is what we aresupposed to do, and so we have
it as a side issue and not themain issue, and so um and so.
But your to answer to yourquestion is you know, a lot has
changed, but a lot hasn'tchanged sure sure, so it looks
(17:04):
the same, you know yeah, yeah,I'm, I'm, I'm sitting on that.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
A lot has changed, but a lot, a lot remains the
same.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
And you know Second Corinthians 518, y'all know that
, I know that scripture.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
God reconciled us to himself through himself, and,
and Christ gave us the ministryof reconciliation through
himself, and, uh, and Christgave us the ministry of
reconciliation and so, uh, whenwe talk about it being a
biblical mandate, it says itright there in the Bible is
written in, you know, in my, myfather, you know, I said forgave
(17:42):
those and chose love.
You know, but that was backthen.
Right, we always act as if umstuff is so far back, you know,
and I, and I even said it likeit was so far back.
But this is, this is mygeneration, you know, this is um
and um, and so those choices,uh, shape my understanding of
(18:07):
reconciliation, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, arthur William Faulkner, of course, had that
famous quote the past is neverdead, is not even the past.
So you think about sometimes.
You know, one of the things Isay often is that we're living
in stories, whether we'reexperiencing stories, whether we
know them or not, whether we'reexperiencing stories whether we
(18:31):
know them or not, and so and sowe're.
You know, the past is shapingand informing how we're living
right now.
It's not that it's not that farback, it's not that distant,
and in fact, not only is it notdistant, but it's shaping how we
interact, how we live.
The stories of ourneighborhoods, all of that is
right there in our, in our very,very, very near rearview mirror
(18:54):
, so to speak.
Yeah, yeah, how does the churchplay into that?
You know, you mentioned that alot has changed, but a lot is
still the same.
What would you say about therole of the church in that
statement?
A lot has changed, but a lot isstill the same.
What would you say about therole of the church in that
statement?
A lot has changed, but a lot isstill the same.
(19:14):
What are some things in whichyou look into the church and you
see change, but then you lookinto the church and you still
yearn for more change to happen.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Well, some of our segregated hours are still the
same, but then you have someintegrated churches, so that's
the same and some things havechanged.
Then you have pastors who arewilling to explore and talk
about reconciliation and justiceover the pulpit, and then you
(19:48):
have some who shy away from it.
You know so, at least.
This is a slow process, this isa journey.
This is not a sprint, you know.
So.
I think, little by little, thatthese things are going to take
place, and that's one of thereasons why we do our
pilgrimages, our Perkins Justicepilgrimages.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Talk to us about those pilgrimages.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Well, we have what we call Perkins Justice
Pilgrimages, where we takepeople on journeys and immerse
them into the civil rightsmovement and and have a and
justice issues and have a chancefor them to be able to ask
(20:36):
questions in a safe space.
Also, I have great dialogueabout reconciliation and justice
, because what justice lookslike to some people that look
like to other people.
Reconciliation looks like tosome people that look like to
others people.
Reconciliation looks like tosome people that look like the
others.
But what we do is we come at itfrom a biblical standpoint, so
nobody will have an issue withoh well, reconciliation is not
(20:59):
that.
Oh, the Bible saysreconciliation is this.
So we come from that angle andwe have created a safe space for
people to come and learn and bea part of these journeys.
And, you know, I want to inviteMission Mississippi to gather
(21:24):
some folks and be a part of this.
You all have been faithfullydoing the work of reconciliation
in this state in such a longtime and we at the Perkins
Foundation are grateful for that.
And because we share thiscommitment, I feel that this
will be a good fit for us tojoin forces and do a pilgrimage
(21:50):
together.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Gather up about 12 to 20 of your folks, whether it's
staff board members or long-timepartners, even man 12 to 20
people on a bus for extendedperiods of time with Nettie
Winters.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Man.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
That would be a wild time.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You see that that woke Austin up.
Man, he come off of mute toexpress.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Yeah, you woke me up.
I was slumbering over hereuntil I realized I think that
would be Nettie's dream rightthere to have a captive audience
on a bus for a few days ridingaround.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
They got to love you, every part of you.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Can you imagine the stories that would be told
Austin?
Speaker 4 (22:37):
There would be stories told and there would be
points made, there would belaughter had and there would be
a little sleep being done.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I'm sure Now bear it seriously, yes, it was, yes, it
was.
No, I'm being very seriously,no, sleeping Really.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
Oh, really, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
With Elizabeth and Nanny Winters and others.
I don't know, you don't want tomiss it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
You might even get me to be a little bit extroverted,
who knows yeah, yeah, yeah,absolutely yeah.
So, elizabeth, in so many waysand I'm aware of your story, I'm
aware of your father's story,your mother's story I've been
kind of saturating myself in itover the past probably two to
(23:25):
three years or so, and it's beenone where you've kind of been
really able to walk closely withpeople and from my note on your
end for women and young leadersand helping them to grow, and
at the same time you've kind ofremained just deeply engaged in
this hard work of racial healingand reconciliation.
And for some peoplediscipleship is a very quiet
(23:49):
personal journey and for othersreconciliation is also public
justice.
But in your work, it seems, andreally the work of your father,
those threads have been verytightly woven together, right.
So how really have you come tounderstand discipleship is not
just personal formation, it ispersonal formation for a purpose
(24:14):
, but it's something that isalways kind of pushing outwards,
you know, towards justice,toward community, toward healing
.
I'd really love to hear howyour walk with our Lord has been
able to manifest itself in thepublic, in the public realm.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Well, reconciliation includes housing, education,
mentorship, wholeness, wholenessin our neighborhoods.
And so you know, we'll say,well, I'm I'm doing a, a housing
ministry, well, well, you'redoing, you're doing.
Some say, well, I'm doing ahousing ministry, well, you're
doing some work ofreconciliation, reconciling
people back to their familiesand getting them in houses and
(24:57):
stuff.
So, reconciliation we tend toput reconciliation as this thing
that I've got to do with.
You know we think of it asbroken relationships.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
And not broken people , not broken neighborhoods, you
know.
And so those things need to bereconciled.
So we have to begin to think ofreconciliation on a bigger
scale and not just in this boxof me dealing with people.
And so your question, austin.
(25:35):
You said how do I deal with allof this?
You know, people say, you know,like you said, how do I deal
with this?
You know, I think of peoplelike I know I'm not a Harriet
Tubman, I'm not trying to saythat, but I think of people who,
(25:56):
like Harriet and CT Vivian andJohn Lewis, people who have had
to work harder than I have forjustice and try to move the
needle.
And so when I come home and Ikick off my shoes and just sort
(26:17):
of relax and I'm feelingdiscouraged I'm human I get
weary, you know, and sometimes Ifeel the weight of the stories.
You know I can't meetsomebody's need of.
I can't meet somebody's need.
(26:38):
But when that moment comes, oneof my favorite scriptures is
Isaiah 40 31, and he promises usthat.
One of my favorite scripturesis Isaiah 40, 31.
And he promises us that if wewait on the Lord, he will renew
our strength.
And so I come home and I sitand I'm waiting on that renewal.
And I've seen God renew me mystrength again and again, and so
(27:06):
that's so.
Faith, faith is a big deal forme, you know, because have y'all
ever heard of that song?
I Don't Feel no Ways Tired.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Absolutely Right.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
And it talks about I've come too far.
I don't feel no way, so I'vecome too far from where I've
started from.
Nobody told me the road wouldbe easy, but I don't believe you
brought me this far to leave me.
And so that's the way I feel andthose are the songs that I have
in my heart and I know this isa faith journey.
(27:48):
It's a faith journey and I knowGod is going to carry us, carry
me and my sister, carry all ofour folks who are working with
us, because he knows that we areon a journey that he has put us
on.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Amen, amen, amen.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
You know I'm sorry, Austin, Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
No, it was good, I was just getting into it.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Elizabeth, I get this question and sometimes I'm able
to answer it and sometimes I'mnot.
But people ask me you know, inthis work of reconciliation, in
this work of justice, in thiswork of equality, in this work
of what we're working for, youknow, what do you find the
greatest challenge to be when itcomes to the church?
(28:33):
I thought I let somebody elseshare and tried to answer that
other than me.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
In this culture we think diversity is
reconciliation, andreconciliation and diversity are
not the same.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
You can say that again and again.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Yeah, diversity is I'm going to be friends with
everybody.
Reconciliation is I want adeeper relationship with you
friend.
Yeah, is I want a deeperrelationship with you, friend, I
want to.
And so when we talk about thechurch and reconciliation and we
see some pulpits and stagesthat have different people on
(29:22):
the stage, a lot of times that'sdiversity.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Most of the time it's diversity.
Yes, most of the time it'sdiversity.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yes, most of the time it's diversity and not true
reconciliation.
That's another reason why Ihave churches that come, church
staff people that come and dothese pilgrimages is because
they get to understand who thisblack person is.
See y get to understand.
See y'all understand.
(29:48):
We don't have to, Y'all don'thave to learn our history, but
every day we have to learn y'allhistory and walk in it.
I told one pilgrimage group.
I said y'all, I'm just going tobe me on this pilgrimage.
(30:11):
And they said what do you mean?
And I said I am not going toassimilate for y'all on this
pilgrimage because I have tomake them feel comfortable in
the beginning.
And so that's what I did.
But then I bait and switched on.
But no, no, no, I did, but butit was.
It was like I wanted them tosee and then they had never
(30:34):
heard of that.
So that ended up being aconversation.
You know, more churches need tobe studying about
reconciliation and they will seeI mean from the pulpit and in
(30:56):
the staff meetings.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
And I think if it starts in the staff meetings
it'll sprinkle over to thecongregation.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, yeah, elizabeth , that's powerful, that
diversity is not necessarilyreconciliation.
And you're absolutely right wecan oftentimes fill the space
with a variety of colors, butstill silence all the stories
(31:30):
that are, that are underneaththose colors, and so you, and so
you can't.
You can't have reconciliationuntil you have depth in
relationships, and you can'thave depth in relationships
until you have the ability andcapacity for people to be able
to share who they are, you know,and create that culture where,
where there is a, a range of ofstories and and deepening
(31:53):
empathy that comes out of thosestories.
And so, and so you're, you're,you're, you're absolutely spot
on.
And and to that point,elizabeth, what happens is that
when crisis arises, that impactall of those different people,
there's no, there's no anchorthere, um, so you have.
(32:14):
And so when you talk about youknow we the quiet exodus that
the New York times wrote aboutin 2018, where, where, um, black
and brown faces were startingto slip out of multi-ethnic
churches and spaces, a lot ofthat had to do with, basically,
you know, congregating andcreating these spaces where you
have varieties of color, but youdidn't have varieties of story
(32:36):
and varieties of experiencebeing shared, and so those,
those, those stories and thoseexperiences.
You know they were like, hey, Istill don't feel connected.
Even though we got people inhere that are of hey, I still
don't feel connected.
Even though we got people inhere that are of different
colors, I still don't feelconnected.
So you end up losing people andso, in order to have depth for
the long haul and the kind ofresilience that's going to,
that's going to allow people tolast, even through adversity,
(32:58):
you can't just have that, youcan't just have diversity, you
have to have true connection andreconciliation that's being
forged in the midst of thatdiversity.
So thank you so much for that.
If you got, if you have one wayto encourage our listeners, one
challenge that you can givethem based on your experience,
(33:19):
as we, as we part on thisepisode, what would you tell
them?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Our country, um, our country is full of pain in
regards to race, but pain can bethe beginning of healing if we
let it.
So I think that, uh, I hope,you know, and I have hope, I
hope, um, that this nextgeneration that we're rising up
a passionate generation, um,about justice and and people who
(33:48):
, who deeply love Jesus, youknow, you can have, you can, um,
you can be passionate aboutjustice and reconciliation and
and dismiss Jesus.
We want to make sure that weraise enough generation that
that's in love with Jesus, youknow.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
And.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I hope, because churches are slowly awakening to
the call of unity and equity.
I hope they see the characterof God.
And the character of God is hemade all of us in his image and
he made us all.
He made a lot of differentcolors.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
And so, therefore, um , you know, everyone is included
and God specializes inredemption, and I think that if
we um and see, my journey hastaught me that progress is
possible.
And see, my journey has taughtme that progress is possible.
(34:50):
I have seen people on thesepilgrimages come and say, well,
I don't have any extra time inmy schedule to make any new
friends.
I mean when I asked, when Ichallenged them to make some
(35:11):
black friends or somebody intheir church.
You know, don't have time, butI've seen them wake up the next
morning and say I'm going to try, see.
So if I have to do this onepilgrimage at a time, I'm going
to keep doing it.
I'm going to keep doing it.
I'm going to keep doing itbecause I know progress is
possible.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Was that?
Speaker 1 (35:25):
your question.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
No, that was it.
Yeah know, progress is possible?
Speaker 4 (35:27):
Was that a question?
No, that was it.
That was it.
Yeah, you answered it.
That was a good answer, spot on.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yeah, Elizabeth man, we are so incredibly grateful
for your ministry, for your life, for the legacy that you're
forging ahead.
We are so incredibly gratefulfor it and so thankful that
Mission Mississippi gets achance to watch and observe and
participate, and Nettie'salready.
I don't know if you're payingattention, but Nettie's already
(35:53):
making his list of people thathe can invite on our pilgrimage.
So he can have all the storiesto share on our trip, but no,
we're great.
Seriously, though, we areincredibly grateful for you,
incredibly thankful for the workthat you do.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
If you only have a few people.
We have a pilgrimage scheduledfor July.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Yes, please share.
Please share July.
Do you have the details on thatone yet?
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Let's see here.
I think it's July 13th.
It's the second.
It's the week after 4th of July, so it might be the 9th.
It's Wednesday through Sunday.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
If it's all Mississippi people, we can start
on Thursday.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Gotcha, excellent, excellent, excellent.
Well, how can people keep upwith you, elizabeth?
Where can they go?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
They can visit our website at jvmpforg and check
out what we're doing.
We're also having a galaOctober 3rd that you all can
attend and a cookout the nextday.
Because you know we you havefunctions where everybody comes
(37:12):
but you really don't get achance to talk to people.
So we decided to have a galaand then the next day we have on
October 4th, we're having acookout where everybody can just
sort of hang out and play gamesand talk.
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Hospitality.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Yes, hospitality, you got it.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
You got it.
That's it.
Absolutely, absolutely, no.
Thank you so much, elizabeth,for joining us on this episode,
and thanks to all of ourlisteners, all of our friends
and sponsors who make thispossible.
On behalf of my good friends,nettie Winters, austin Hoyle
this is Brian Crawford signingoff saying God bless, god bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
(37:52):
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
I'm your host, Brian Crawford,with one of my friends and
(00:34):
hopefully the other friend willbe able to join shortly Austin
Hoyle, but Nettie Winters, he'shere with me, so that still
makes me feel good.
Nettie, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm great man.
I'm excited, I see Elizabethand I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Absolutely.
We are incredibly excited tohave our guest this morning with
us, ms Elizabeth Perkins.
But before we get to ourinterview with Elizabeth, we do
want to give a quick shout outto our friends and sponsors,
folks like Mississippi College,anderson, united Methodist
Church, grace Temple Church,mississippi State, real
(01:08):
Christian Foundation, nissan, stDominic Hospital, atmos Energy,
regents Foundation, brownMissionary Baptist Church,
christian Life Church, ms DorisPowell, robert Ward and Winters.
Thank you guys so much foreverything that you do.
Because of you we are able todo the things that we do, and
today what we are doing is weare talking to the great
(01:32):
Elizabeth Perkins.
Elizabeth, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I don't know about all that great stuff, but thank
you, I'm excited to be here andtalk with y'all.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
We are excited to have you.
Elizabeth Perkins is theco-president of John and Vera
Mae Perkins Foundation.
She has an incredible,incredible calling and
incredible story over her life.
She loves Jesus, she lovesreconciliation, discipleship and
justice.
Has 25 years of ministryexperience, pouring into the
(02:02):
lives of both men and womenmentoring, coaching, discipling,
you name it.
Elizabeth has done it.
She has spoken, of course,across our state, but it has
also spoken across our country,and so we get a chance to hear a
ton, a ton from Elizabeth todaythat we are really, really,
really excited about.
So, elizabeth, again, thank youso much for joining us on this
(02:26):
episode of Living Reconciled.
I want to jump right in and askyou a question that I'm sure
you get a lot, because you grewup in the shadow of one of the
most significant civil rightsvoices, not simply in our state,
but one of the most significantcivil rights voices in our
(02:46):
country, and so, out of the gate, what is it like being raised
by Dr John Perkins, and how didthat life following behind him
or watching and observing howdid that life shape your
understanding of Jesus's callfor reconciliation?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
First I want to say thank you for having me, and one
of the things that shade doesis protect.
Shade covers us, shade protectsus.
So, growing up in that shadow,there was protection.
In that shadow, there wasprotection.
(03:31):
There also was, you know, a lotof things going on in my family
, because it was, you know, wegrew up during a time where this
, during the civil rights era myparents were needy in the
movement, and so there were.
You know, everybody knows thestory about my dad being beat up
and all that stuff.
But prior to that, one of thethings, one of the greatest
(03:52):
things as an adult, I thinkabout now is the people who came
through our home.
I look back and I startthinking about Fannie.
Lou Hamer came through my house.
You know, charles Eversprotected our house.
The deacons of defense, youknow they sat out on our porch.
And so now, as an adult, when Ilook back, benny Thompson was
(04:13):
one of the students marching,you know.
And so when I, as an adult, nowthat I look back, I see
everything a bit different.
But the facts are still thefacts.
But my appreciation of being apart of this legacy is grown and
greater now.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
When you, when I mean that that that is compelling,
just to just to hear that whenyou, when you said it, fannie
Lou Hamer came to my house Right.
Benny Thompson was at my house.
Megha Evers was at my house.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Charles Evers, not Megha Evers.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Charles Evers, thank you, thank you, charles Evers
was at my house protecting.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Yeah, megha, evers and Kiel.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Right protecting my house.
Thank you for that correction.
But when you say that obviouslyas a child, that can't land on
you like it does as an adult, Imean, how do you recap that
experience, thinking about itnow versus thinking about it
when you were a kid and you hadall of these iconic civil rights
(05:23):
men and women coming throughyour home and interacting with
your family?
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Well, I knew, as a child, I knew something
important was going on, and andI hung around with my mom all
the time and my mother had thisdisposition of worry, and so I
knew something was going on.
And then we would get phonecalls, you know, and my mother
(05:51):
would answer the phone and therewould be things on, you know,
people on the other end sayingis that Ian dead?
Yet you know, and so, and thenshe would get off and I would
see her face.
And so, you know, having thesepeople come through as an, as a
child, as a child, I knewsomething was going on, but as
an adult, now that I know whatwas going on, my appreciation is
(06:14):
just like you know, man, thankyou God for putting me in this,
in this family, cause sometimes,you know, as a teenager, I
don't want to be in this family.
But now I understand and youknow, and, as a teenager, one of
the things that you know youhave, you're trying to find out
(06:41):
who you are.
And I also wanted time with mydad, and, because God had this
call on his life, he was verybusy and so there were times
where I had to pull him away,and I remember this one pic
photo of me.
We're standing out inMendenhall in front of the yard
and I'm just leaning up againsthim while he's talking to
(07:02):
another man.
That's the attention that Iwanted from him, but yet he's
hugging me.
So I'm getting that attentionin his special way, but knowing
he couldn't stop.
But I didn't know he couldn'tstop.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Right, that's a good segue to another question that I
have really for you, elizabeth,and I mean you've already kind
of given us a peek and a glimpseinto your family's story and
your family's background.
But obviously, you know,there's the public persona, but
then there's the then, thenthere's the family persona that
(07:40):
speaks to the movement, thatspeaks to the passion that your
father and your mother had as itrelates to reconciliation.
So you know, obviously it's notjust born in a vacuum.
There are things that arehappening in your own personal
story that keeps the fireburning, so to speak.
So could you speak to some ofthose moments where it was?
(08:03):
It was a little, the light wasdim, but the family had to
huddle up and kind of find thatenergy and find that strength
from God to keep going, so tospeak.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, during the 60s my older siblings integrated the
white school in Mendenhall andso that was a tough time where
my brothers were like littlesoldiers who wanted to do it
because daddy said, you know,this is something that needs to
be done, whereas my older sister, johnny, was like she knew more
(08:35):
, so she knew the danger and sheknew what it was going to be
like going to those schools andand.
But you know, we came to thehuddle and the huddle said let's
go, you know let's.
And we, we got together andthey went.
I was too young to go to schooland they survived.
And as they look back on it nowthey said you know, they're
(09:00):
happy they did it.
It was a tough.
It was tough, you know.
Just think about right nowputting your child in a school
to integrate the school.
Now fast forward.
In eighth grade I went away toboarding school because my
parents were traveling, and notbecause I was that kind of kid,
but because I was travelingbecause they were traveling.
(09:21):
And that school I was the onlyblack at that school.
The first year it was two of us.
The second and third year itwas just me, and the fourth year
a boy came.
And so, looking back on what mysiblings had to do, I then was
like, ok, I got to be brave andgo to this school that has all
(09:42):
these, you know, only has whitepeople, has all these, you know,
only has white people, and sobeing in the family like this it
teaches you, okay, what youhave to do and you're going to
survive.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
And in the end.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
it was fun for me, but anyway, yeah, I think that
you know, when my brother, myfather, was tortured in the
Brandon jail, that kind ofshaped all of us, you know,
because it was a traumatic eventin our lives.
You know, thinking that youknow your father may die, but in
(10:24):
the end you know he survivedand he forgave those people.
You know he survived and heforgave those people.
And so, watching that now thinkabout me, watching that, what I
, what I had to do once I, onceI, um, chose Jesus for myself
and understanding whatforgiveness is.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
I had, I've had these examples in front of me of
justice, of reconciliation, ofmoving past hate.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
And so it's been a journey.
It's been a journey and mymother.
She quietly shaped livesthrough her Good News Club.
She worked in the office, shedid all the office work and
hospitality.
Yes, yes, she would bringpeople into her house and, you
know, shape them and shape, andthen she shaped us too.
(11:18):
But one of the things that Iwant to say about that is when I
think about the luncheons oneof my things if y'all ever see
me at the luncheon, you alwayssee me running around.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
And this is for the listeners on that might not be
familiar.
These are monthly lunches thatare hosted at the Perkins House
there in Jackson and so verymuch a very hospitable
experience.
Table set up for people to kindof have dialogue and
conversation, typically a guestspeaker, but a very hospitable
(11:52):
moment.
So yeah, elizabeth, just wantto set the context up for those
that are listening.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And that's where that comes from Anybody who dots
your door.
You need to be hospitable, youneed to be loving, you need to
be kind and offer them some goodfood If you know, we always
have good food at these places.
You know, I just can't help it.
You know, um, but that's whatshe poured into me.
And she was, uh, the strengthbehind the scenes you know we
(12:20):
talk about.
My dad had this undeniablestrength when he got beat up and
after he got out, she, daddy,went to her and said, you know,
cause it was another March onthe horizon got beat up.
And after he got out, daddywent to her and said, you know,
because it was another march onthe horizon, but he was too weak
to lead it.
And he went to her and said youhave to lead the march today.
(12:42):
And just imagine a woman backthen leading the march and of
course, she had some protectionaround her, but she had to step
up, and so she was this strengthbehind the scenes that we don't
(13:03):
really talk a lot about.
And I always want to talk aboutmy siblings too.
You know they are my heroes andsheroes.
Integrating the school wasn'teasy and it had some lasting
effects on them.
You know that they've had towork through, and so I don't
(13:28):
ever want to forget about.
This was a family affair.
This journey of reconciliationand justice has been a family
affair.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Talk about your ministry now how that transition
and that contrast what you justgave us, how that transition
into the ministry you have now.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Well, first of all, I never thought, being the eighth
child, that I would ever beleading the Perkins ministry.
There were so many people aheadof me to do it and so, but I
know God has called me at thistime and this moment to co-lead
(14:06):
with my sister, priscilla.
My sister, it was three of us.
My sister Deborah, retired inFebruary, and so now it's
Priscilla and I co-leading, andyou know, we want to equip and
develop leaders who will liveout the, you know, the lifestyle
of reconciliation, thelifestyle of justice, not just
(14:29):
talk about it, you know, and sothat's what our vision and our
mission is for the foundation,you know.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Elizabeth, what does reconciliation look like for you
right now, in this moment?
I mean, obviously, when we talkabout Doc and Mama Vera,
reconciliation looked likesomething totally different than
what it does today.
And let me back up and just sayshout out to Mama Vera again,
(15:04):
because every good civil rightsmovement had incredibly strong,
strong, strong women, either inthe forefront or behind the
scenes, like you said, just thepower of hospitality and how
that was so, how that nourishedand refreshed and energized and
(15:25):
encouraged and charged up thosethat were running back to the
front lines, the vocal speakersand all that kind of stuff.
And so shout out to just theincredible, incredible women,
whether they were on the frontlines, whether they were behind
the scenes, whether they were,you know, wherever they were,
that movement was made possibleby God's grace at work through
(15:48):
them.
But yeah, as you think aboutreconciliation in this season
versus reconciliation in theseasons that preceded us, what
does it look like to you today?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
A lot of the same.
You know, it's about restoringbroken relationships, and we see
in our country how ourrelationships are broken, and
it's not just about unity, it'sabout truth and healing and the
(16:20):
work of working hard together inlove.
So reconciliation is notoptional, it's a biblical
mandate.
See, sometimes we act as ifit's optional and not
understanding that this is thatthe Bible tells us.
(16:40):
You know, this is what we aresupposed to do, and so we have
it as a side issue and not themain issue, and so um and so.
But your to answer to yourquestion is you know, a lot has
changed, but a lot hasn'tchanged sure sure, so it looks
(17:04):
the same, you know yeah, yeah,I'm, I'm, I'm sitting on that.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
A lot has changed, but a lot, a lot remains the
same.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
And you know Second Corinthians 518, y'all know that
, I know that scripture.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
God reconciled us to himself through himself, and,
and Christ gave us the ministryof reconciliation through
himself, and, uh, and Christgave us the ministry of
reconciliation and so, uh, whenwe talk about it being a
biblical mandate, it says itright there in the Bible is
written in, you know, in my, myfather, you know, I said forgave
(17:42):
those and chose love.
You know, but that was backthen.
Right, we always act as if umstuff is so far back, you know,
and I, and I even said it likeit was so far back.
But this is, this is mygeneration, you know, this is um
and um, and so those choices,uh, shape my understanding of
(18:07):
reconciliation, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, arthur William Faulkner, of course, had that
famous quote the past is neverdead, is not even the past.
So you think about sometimes.
You know, one of the things Isay often is that we're living
in stories, whether we'reexperiencing stories, whether we
know them or not, whether we'reexperiencing stories whether we
(18:31):
know them or not, and so and sowe're.
You know, the past is shapingand informing how we're living
right now.
It's not that it's not that farback, it's not that distant,
and in fact, not only is it notdistant, but it's shaping how we
interact, how we live.
The stories of ourneighborhoods, all of that is
right there in our, in our very,very, very near rearview mirror
(18:54):
, so to speak.
Yeah, yeah, how does the churchplay into that?
You know, you mentioned that alot has changed, but a lot is
still the same.
What would you say about therole of the church in that
statement?
A lot has changed, but a lot isstill the same.
What would you say about therole of the church in that
statement?
A lot has changed, but a lot isstill the same.
(19:14):
What are some things in whichyou look into the church and you
see change, but then you lookinto the church and you still
yearn for more change to happen.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Well, some of our segregated hours are still the
same, but then you have someintegrated churches, so that's
the same and some things havechanged.
Then you have pastors who arewilling to explore and talk
about reconciliation and justiceover the pulpit, and then you
(19:48):
have some who shy away from it.
You know so, at least.
This is a slow process, this isa journey.
This is not a sprint, you know.
So.
I think, little by little, thatthese things are going to take
place, and that's one of thereasons why we do our
pilgrimages, our Perkins Justicepilgrimages.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Talk to us about those pilgrimages.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Well, we have what we call Perkins Justice
Pilgrimages, where we takepeople on journeys and immerse
them into the civil rightsmovement and and have a and
justice issues and have a chancefor them to be able to ask
(20:36):
questions in a safe space.
Also, I have great dialogueabout reconciliation and justice
, because what justice lookslike to some people that look
like to other people.
Reconciliation looks like tosome people that look like to
others people.
Reconciliation looks like tosome people that look like the
others.
But what we do is we come at itfrom a biblical standpoint, so
nobody will have an issue withoh well, reconciliation is not
(20:59):
that.
Oh, the Bible saysreconciliation is this.
So we come from that angle andwe have created a safe space for
people to come and learn and bea part of these journeys.
And, you know, I want to inviteMission Mississippi to gather
(21:24):
some folks and be a part of this.
You all have been faithfullydoing the work of reconciliation
in this state in such a longtime and we at the Perkins
Foundation are grateful for that.
And because we share thiscommitment, I feel that this
will be a good fit for us tojoin forces and do a pilgrimage
(21:50):
together.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Gather up about 12 to 20 of your folks, whether it's
staff board members or long-timepartners, even man 12 to 20
people on a bus for extendedperiods of time with Nettie
Winters.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Man.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
That would be a wild time.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You see that that woke Austin up.
Man, he come off of mute toexpress.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Yeah, you woke me up.
I was slumbering over hereuntil I realized I think that
would be Nettie's dream rightthere to have a captive audience
on a bus for a few days ridingaround.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
They got to love you, every part of you.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Can you imagine the stories that would be told
Austin?
Speaker 4 (22:37):
There would be stories told and there would be
points made, there would belaughter had and there would be
a little sleep being done.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I'm sure Now bear it seriously, yes, it was, yes, it
was.
No, I'm being very seriously,no, sleeping Really.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
Oh, really, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
With Elizabeth and Nanny Winters and others.
I don't know, you don't want tomiss it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
You might even get me to be a little bit extroverted,
who knows yeah, yeah, yeah,absolutely yeah.
So, elizabeth, in so many waysand I'm aware of your story, I'm
aware of your father's story,your mother's story I've been
kind of saturating myself in itover the past probably two to
(23:25):
three years or so, and it's beenone where you've kind of been
really able to walk closely withpeople and from my note on your
end for women and young leadersand helping them to grow, and
at the same time you've kind ofremained just deeply engaged in
this hard work of racial healingand reconciliation.
And for some peoplediscipleship is a very quiet
(23:49):
personal journey and for othersreconciliation is also public
justice.
But in your work, it seems, andreally the work of your father,
those threads have been verytightly woven together, right.
So how really have you come tounderstand discipleship is not
just personal formation, it ispersonal formation for a purpose
(24:14):
, but it's something that isalways kind of pushing outwards,
you know, towards justice,toward community, toward healing
.
I'd really love to hear howyour walk with our Lord has been
able to manifest itself in thepublic, in the public realm.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Well, reconciliation includes housing, education,
mentorship, wholeness, wholenessin our neighborhoods.
And so you know, we'll say,well, I'm I'm doing a, a housing
ministry, well, well, you'redoing, you're doing.
Some say, well, I'm doing ahousing ministry, well, you're
doing some work ofreconciliation, reconciling
people back to their familiesand getting them in houses and
(24:57):
stuff.
So, reconciliation we tend toput reconciliation as this thing
that I've got to do with.
You know we think of it asbroken relationships.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
And not broken people , not broken neighborhoods, you
know.
And so those things need to bereconciled.
So we have to begin to think ofreconciliation on a bigger
scale and not just in this boxof me dealing with people.
And so your question, austin.
(25:35):
You said how do I deal with allof this?
You know, people say, you know,like you said, how do I deal
with this?
You know, I think of peoplelike I know I'm not a Harriet
Tubman, I'm not trying to saythat, but I think of people who,
(25:56):
like Harriet and CT Vivian andJohn Lewis, people who have had
to work harder than I have forjustice and try to move the
needle.
And so when I come home and Ikick off my shoes and just sort
(26:17):
of relax and I'm feelingdiscouraged I'm human I get
weary, you know, and sometimes Ifeel the weight of the stories.
You know I can't meetsomebody's need of.
I can't meet somebody's need.
(26:38):
But when that moment comes, oneof my favorite scriptures is
Isaiah 40 31, and he promises usthat.
One of my favorite scripturesis Isaiah 40, 31.
And he promises us that if wewait on the Lord, he will renew
our strength.
And so I come home and I sitand I'm waiting on that renewal.
And I've seen God renew me mystrength again and again, and so
(27:06):
that's so.
Faith, faith is a big deal forme, you know, because have y'all
ever heard of that song?
I Don't Feel no Ways Tired.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Absolutely Right.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
And it talks about I've come too far.
I don't feel no way, so I'vecome too far from where I've
started from.
Nobody told me the road wouldbe easy, but I don't believe you
brought me this far to leave me.
And so that's the way I feel andthose are the songs that I have
in my heart and I know this isa faith journey.
(27:48):
It's a faith journey and I knowGod is going to carry us, carry
me and my sister, carry all ofour folks who are working with
us, because he knows that we areon a journey that he has put us
on.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Amen, amen, amen.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
You know I'm sorry, Austin, Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
No, it was good, I was just getting into it.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Elizabeth, I get this question and sometimes I'm able
to answer it and sometimes I'mnot.
But people ask me you know, inthis work of reconciliation, in
this work of justice, in thiswork of equality, in this work
of what we're working for, youknow, what do you find the
greatest challenge to be when itcomes to the church?
(28:33):
I thought I let somebody elseshare and tried to answer that
other than me.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
In this culture we think diversity is
reconciliation, andreconciliation and diversity are
not the same.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
You can say that again and again.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Yeah, diversity is I'm going to be friends with
everybody.
Reconciliation is I want adeeper relationship with you
friend.
Yeah, is I want a deeperrelationship with you, friend, I
want to.
And so when we talk about thechurch and reconciliation and we
see some pulpits and stagesthat have different people on
(29:22):
the stage, a lot of times that'sdiversity.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Most of the time it's diversity.
Yes, most of the time it'sdiversity.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yes, most of the time it's diversity and not true
reconciliation.
That's another reason why Ihave churches that come, church
staff people that come and dothese pilgrimages is because
they get to understand who thisblack person is.
See y get to understand.
See y'all understand.
(29:48):
We don't have to, Y'all don'thave to learn our history, but
every day we have to learn y'allhistory and walk in it.
I told one pilgrimage group.
I said y'all, I'm just going tobe me on this pilgrimage.
(30:11):
And they said what do you mean?
And I said I am not going toassimilate for y'all on this
pilgrimage because I have tomake them feel comfortable in
the beginning.
And so that's what I did.
But then I bait and switched on.
But no, no, no, I did, but butit was.
It was like I wanted them tosee and then they had never
(30:34):
heard of that.
So that ended up being aconversation.
You know, more churches need tobe studying about
reconciliation and they will seeI mean from the pulpit and in
(30:56):
the staff meetings.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
And I think if it starts in the staff meetings
it'll sprinkle over to thecongregation.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, yeah, elizabeth , that's powerful, that
diversity is not necessarilyreconciliation.
And you're absolutely right wecan oftentimes fill the space
with a variety of colors, butstill silence all the stories
(31:30):
that are, that are underneaththose colors, and so you, and so
you can't.
You can't have reconciliationuntil you have depth in
relationships, and you can'thave depth in relationships
until you have the ability andcapacity for people to be able
to share who they are, you know,and create that culture where,
where there is a, a range of ofstories and and deepening
(31:53):
empathy that comes out of thosestories.
And so, and so you're, you're,you're, you're absolutely spot
on.
And and to that point,elizabeth, what happens is that
when crisis arises, that impactall of those different people,
there's no, there's no anchorthere, um, so you have.
(32:14):
And so when you talk about youknow we the quiet exodus that
the New York times wrote aboutin 2018, where, where, um, black
and brown faces were startingto slip out of multi-ethnic
churches and spaces, a lot ofthat had to do with, basically,
you know, congregating andcreating these spaces where you
have varieties of color, but youdidn't have varieties of story
(32:36):
and varieties of experiencebeing shared, and so those,
those, those stories and thoseexperiences.
You know they were like, hey, Istill don't feel connected.
Even though we got people inhere that are of hey, I still
don't feel connected.
Even though we got people inhere that are of different
colors, I still don't feelconnected.
So you end up losing people andso, in order to have depth for
the long haul and the kind ofresilience that's going to,
that's going to allow people tolast, even through adversity,
(32:58):
you can't just have that, youcan't just have diversity, you
have to have true connection andreconciliation that's being
forged in the midst of thatdiversity.
So thank you so much for that.
If you got, if you have one wayto encourage our listeners, one
challenge that you can givethem based on your experience,
(33:19):
as we, as we part on thisepisode, what would you tell
them?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Our country, um, our country is full of pain in
regards to race, but pain can bethe beginning of healing if we
let it.
So I think that, uh, I hope,you know, and I have hope, I
hope, um, that this nextgeneration that we're rising up
a passionate generation, um,about justice and and people who
(33:48):
, who deeply love Jesus, youknow, you can have, you can, um,
you can be passionate aboutjustice and reconciliation and
and dismiss Jesus.
We want to make sure that weraise enough generation that
that's in love with Jesus, youknow.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
And.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I hope, because churches are slowly awakening to
the call of unity and equity.
I hope they see the characterof God.
And the character of God is hemade all of us in his image and
he made us all.
He made a lot of differentcolors.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
And so, therefore, um , you know, everyone is included
and God specializes inredemption, and I think that if
we um and see, my journey hastaught me that progress is
possible.
And see, my journey has taughtme that progress is possible.
(34:50):
I have seen people on thesepilgrimages come and say, well,
I don't have any extra time inmy schedule to make any new
friends.
I mean when I asked, when Ichallenged them to make some
(35:11):
black friends or somebody intheir church.
You know, don't have time, butI've seen them wake up the next
morning and say I'm going to try, see.
So if I have to do this onepilgrimage at a time, I'm going
to keep doing it.
I'm going to keep doing it.
I'm going to keep doing itbecause I know progress is
possible.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Was that?
Speaker 1 (35:25):
your question.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
No, that was it.
Yeah know, progress is possible?
Speaker 4 (35:27):
Was that a question?
No, that was it.
That was it.
Yeah, you answered it.
That was a good answer, spot on.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yeah, Elizabeth man, we are so incredibly grateful
for your ministry, for your life, for the legacy that you're
forging ahead.
We are so incredibly gratefulfor it and so thankful that
Mission Mississippi gets achance to watch and observe and
participate, and Nettie'salready.
I don't know if you're payingattention, but Nettie's already
(35:53):
making his list of people thathe can invite on our pilgrimage.
So he can have all the storiesto share on our trip, but no,
we're great.
Seriously, though, we areincredibly grateful for you,
incredibly thankful for the workthat you do.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
If you only have a few people.
We have a pilgrimage scheduledfor July.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Yes, please share.
Please share July.
Do you have the details on thatone yet?
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Let's see here.
I think it's July 13th.
It's the second.
It's the week after 4th of July, so it might be the 9th.
It's Wednesday through Sunday.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
If it's all Mississippi people, we can start
on Thursday.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Gotcha, excellent, excellent, excellent.
Well, how can people keep upwith you, elizabeth?
Where can they go?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
They can visit our website at jvmpforg and check
out what we're doing.
We're also having a galaOctober 3rd that you all can
attend and a cookout the nextday.
Because you know we you havefunctions where everybody comes
(37:12):
but you really don't get achance to talk to people.
So we decided to have a galaand then the next day we have on
October 4th, we're having acookout where everybody can just
sort of hang out and play gamesand talk.
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Hospitality.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Yes, hospitality, you got it.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
You got it.
That's it.
Absolutely, absolutely, no.
Thank you so much, elizabeth,for joining us on this episode,
and thanks to all of ourlisteners, all of our friends
and sponsors who make thispossible.
On behalf of my good friends,nettie Winters, austin Hoyle
this is Brian Crawford signingoff saying God bless, god bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
(37:52):
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
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