June 11, 2025 • 44 mins
We would love to hear from you! Send us a text message.
Jermaine Van Buren Jr. opens up about the painful realities of living between two worlds—navigating white academic spaces and Black church communities while struggling with a fractured sense of identity. Labeled an “Oreo” and exhausted by code-switching, Jermaine found healing in Black mentorship and spiritual truth: "God made you Black on purpose." Now leading campus ministry at Jackson State University, Jermaine shares how anchoring identity in Christ—rather than cultural expectations—can free the next generation. This episode dives deep into race, reconciliation, and how authentic faith breaks down walls of ignorance. Tune in to hear one man’s journey of becoming whole and helping others do the same.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
(00:32):
I am your host, brian Crawford,and I am with my good friends
Nettie Winters, austin Hoyle,co-hosts.
Gentlemen, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Wonderful man.
I'm just thankful each weekthat I'm your incredible friend.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I know you remind me every week it's like my weekly
check-in to let me know that Imatter in life.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
You matter in life.
Well, that's good.
I'm glad to hear that my kindcomments on the beginning of a
podcast can help you know thatyou matter, man.
There's a lot of other peoplethat matter, by the way
(01:21):
no-transcript and Mr Robert Ward.
Thank you guys so much.
In the words of Austin, youmatter to Mission Mississippi
even if you didn't sponsor us,but you certainly matter to us.
Because of you we're able to dowhat we do, and what we're able
to do is have a greatconversation, like we do week in
and week out, greatconversations with great people
(01:41):
all over the state and evenbeyond.
Today, one of our greatconversations is going to be had
with a friend, jermaine VanBuren Jr.
Jermaine Van Buren Jr.
We will hear much about hislife and story, but he is the
campus director for the JacksonState University chapter of the
Reform University Fellowship.
(02:02):
Jermaine is a husband, he is apastor or elder, he is a leader
in the Presbyterian Church,particularly the Presbyterian
Church where he serves RedeemerChurch in the heart of Jackson
Mississippi, right there onNorthside Drive, and it's a
(02:23):
pleasure to have Jermaine on thepod today.
Brother, how are you doing?
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Man, I'm doing great.
What a great introduction.
What a great introduction.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Man, we try our best, isn't that right, nettie?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Absolutely, man.
I'd like to take you on theroad with me.
Man, to introduce me.
But you know you pointed outsome friends of ours as they
sponsored the broadcast and thepodcast.
You know, austin and I are justincredible friends.
Now, those friends are what?
What are they?
Great, incredible friends.
How do you describe you know?
(02:56):
Anyway, go on with your.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Special, special friends.
They're special friends Veryspecial, all right.
They're very special, veryspecial, very special, very
special.
So, jermaine brother, we wouldlove to hear a little bit about
your life and story.
Just to start out this episode.
If you don't mind, take amoment and tell us a little bit
about your family, tell us alittle bit about how you came to
faith and tell us about how youended up at RUF on the campus
(03:23):
of Jackson State Universityended up at RUF on the campus of
Jackson State University.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah, yeah.
So I was born in Hattiesburg,mississippi, and I've lived all
18 of my years in Hattiesburg.
I moved around a couple times,but I call Hattiesburg my home.
I'm a burg built home of thebase burg.
You know the dirty burg as somehave called it.
Uh, but I I do love Hattiesburg.
I still love that greensnowball stand on Broadway drive
(03:51):
.
Uh, where it stood the test oftime even through hurricane
Katrina.
Um, and so I've.
I've been in, um, like I said,grown up in Hattiesburg.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
You mean in all the places that got damaged by the
storm, the snowball place stands.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
The snowball place stands the test of time, and
that's a sermon in and of itself.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
You know I'm going to go back there next time in
Hattiesburg, and I got to get asnowball from that place.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
You do, you do.
You need to go get a Tiger'sBlood or a Tutti Frutti snowball
.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I get a Tutti.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Frutti I don't like to wear a tag or anything.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I think I grew up going to that stand man.
I must have been walking therewhen I was a kid, because I
remember the Tiger.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
I know you did.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
I grew up drinking Tiger's Blood.
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
So I grew up going to Mount Olive Baptist Church with
Reverend Arthur Sigur he'sactually my cousin and then we
shifted, when my mom gotremarried, to Shady Grove
Missionary Baptist Church withReverend Reginald Willard Jr as
the pastor missionary Baptisttradition and I was man just so
(05:04):
formed by the men and women inthat church who loved me and
gave me a space to lead.
But also there were some keymen and women there that just
also checked my soul and askedme like, well, how are you doing
really?
You're singing all the time,you're teaching Sunday school,
you're doing all of this, buthow are you doing really?
(05:25):
And I think that's probablywhere God planted a seed in me.
I didn't really come to faithuntil college, but while I was
in high school, middle school,my whole life was school, church
and school and church and sleep, sleep and school and church,
(05:45):
and so, yeah, my parents gotdivorced.
When I was young, dad played inMLB, played for a couple teams
that y'all might know.
Some of y'all might not likethe teams, but he played for the
Red Sox Washington Nationals.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, he played on the minor league team on the
Washington Nation nationals.
He did.
Uh, yeah, yeah, I saw, I sawthe jersey, I saw.
Well, I I'll go ahead and say Ilooked up jermaine van berwin
online because I was like man,jermaine van berwin, I know I
can find something aboutjermaine van berwin online.
And then I was like, wait asecond, he is a junior and the
son of a major league baseballplayer.
That was an interesting tidbitthat I did not know before this
(06:27):
pod.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And I actually got prepared to interview your
father.
But when I saw you I was likeyou guys look very different and
you look a lot younger than thephotos I found online.
No, I'm just joking.
I'm just joking.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Right, right, right, right, right, right.
Yeah, that would be a differentinterview entirely.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, yeah, right, right, right, right yeah that
would be a different interviewentirely.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely man, but yeah, so,
and I grew up playing baseball,but I really found my passion in
high school when I did speechand debate in theater, and so
that's that's really.
When I was in high school.
I would spend my weekends goingto speech and debate
tournaments, preparing andmemorizing lines.
Yeah Is.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Shane still the debate coach at Oak Grove.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Shane Cole.
He is still the debate coach atOak Grove.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
His first year was the year after my last year in
speech and debate in thatprogram.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Yeah, no, actually it's a great program.
I really think, like when I getinto, when I talk about, like
you know, my calling as a pastor, I really think my time and
speech and debate has shaped theway I communicate.
But yeah, when I grew up, Iobviously grew up in a church
but, like I said, even though Ihad people around me that shaped
(07:42):
me and formed me, I didn'treally know what it meant to be
a Christian, didn't really knowwhat it meant to live out the
gospel in a saving way, and sothat just kind of led to a lot
of performance andself-righteousness.
I could put on a face beforethe right people but not really
have any spiritual fruit.
And then, when it comes to myracial awakening, I mean I've
(08:05):
always been, since I was young,in a predominantly black church
but going to a predominantlywhite school, and then, because
of the circles that I'm in, I'vealways been in sort of a
multi-ethnic context.
My best friends growing up weretwo black men, moses Williams
and Tony Romanek, who were boththeater, both artists, and then
(08:33):
I had a Vietnamese friend,hispanic friend and a couple of
white friends are probably likemy close knit friend group, and
so I've always kind of just hada multi-ethnic upbringing and my
mom that's kind of how my momraised us but also raised us to
have to be, to beunapologetically Black and to
lean into the goodness of Blackculture, and I kind of saw that.
Like you know, black movies,love and Basketball, boys in the
(08:54):
Hood Higher Learning a lot ofSpike Lee.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Coming to America.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Coming to America.
But also you know Fred Hammett,kirk Franklin, brett Brown,
clark, just some of the staplesof gospel music.
But it was hard when I was inhigh school I don't really know
who I was.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
A lot of people call me a choreo when you say it was
hard.
Fold it just a little bit.
What was hard?
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, I think it was hard because when I was in high
school I didn't really know whoI was and so because I was an
actor, it's part of that likeputting on.
You know, if I go back andforth between certain groups, I
can put on and not really knowwho Jermaine is.
So when I'm with the blackfolks, I'll be black Jermaine.
(09:37):
When I'm with the in my APclasses, I'll be smart Jermaine.
When I'm in the white circles,I'll be smart Jermaine.
When I'm in the white circles,I'll be white Jermaine.
And so you know it's just it.
A lot of people called me andsome other students, black
students, Oreos.
You know you're black on theoutside but you're white on the
inside because maybe you talkedwell or you listen to Paramore.
(10:00):
You know many different reasons, and so I think that kind of
was difficult for me when I wasin my adolescence to walk
through.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
You know we talk about code switching a lot in
social circles as it relates toprofessional space.
You know, in terms of codeswitching, when you you know
you're one persona at home, thenyou code switch to be another
persona in whatever company thatyou happen to be in when you're
living out your vocational life.
But we don't talk about howthat plays out, even for some in
(10:35):
their youth, you know, based onthe multi-ethnic and
multicultural experiences thatthey have to be involved in, and
so you can, literally, you know, I remember similar Jermaine,
growing up in a predominantlywhite Catholic school and living
in a predominantly workingclass.
You know, black neighborhoodand and all the time spending
(10:59):
all my days after school at apredominantly black barbershop
or or beauty shop, because mydad and my dad was a barber, my
mom was a cosmetologist and soand so, yeah, making those
switches and adjustments andbeing not even necessarily
knowing who you are, so to speak.
Yeah, that's really interesting, man.
Keep continue to elaborate, man, on some of the challenges that
(11:21):
you faced in that.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Yeah, yeah, I will say that, like man, even amidst
the challenges, the barbershophas always been a place to where
I felt like a safe space forblack manhood.
Now, mind you, theconversations were not always
safe, right, Like you know,depending on where you are on
the political spectrum, rapspectrum, whatever, like you're
(11:46):
going to hear everything.
But I think it definitely feltlike a place to where, as a
black man, you can go speak yourmind, maybe even be comforted
like have it's kind of felt likelike a black mental health,
black self-aware.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
It absolutely was a black, a black man's therapeutic
center.
Goodness.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
I remember the names of my barbers over the years
more than I remember members ofmy own family like Jerry, aunt
Benny, maurice Q Blocker and nowTimothy Love.
Those are my men.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yes, yes, absolutely, brother, Talk to me.
Yeah, keep, those are my men.
Yes, yes, absolutely brother,talk to me.
Yeah, keep going, keep going.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Well, I was going to say I think another part of what
was hard was my senior year ofhigh school.
I started to.
I've always written poetry, butI noticed that in my senior
year of high school I would sayI experienced maybe more of a
blackening, a black awakening.
Senior year of high school, Iwould say I experienced maybe
more of a blackening, a blackawakening.
(12:51):
I had joined well, I hadcrossed into Hattiesburg Kappa
League, which is you know forthose who don't know is a junior
auxiliary of Kappa, Alpha Psi,and when I was in that junior
auxiliary community serviceorganization, man, I feel like
there was a part of me that feltmore legitimate in my blackness
I actually had like brothers,so to speak, where we spent time
(13:11):
together, we were serving thecommunity together, we were
hanging out together, we weregoing through the same process
together.
I actually feel like I had achance to meet people that went
to Hattiesburg High and formedrelationships with them and it
just kind of opened my eyes tosee some of the beauty of
Blackness that maybe I wasn'tleaning into wholly at Oak Grove
(13:33):
, but it was hard because Iwould experience that and that
was like a junior auxiliary.
I spent maybe one hour a weekwith them.
But then the whole eight hoursof my experience at Oak Grove
was predominantly white and soit was kind of hard to navigate
that.
But yeah, as I think back towhere I was mentally in that
space when I was in high school,my poetry and my thoughts, I
(13:58):
would say, started to get alittle bit more militant or
activated in blackness and inculture.
I remember one time I used tolead the announcements at the
school because of my theater'sfolks who speaks to debate role
Every morning they always haveannouncements and I would come
in and do the announcements onetime, and one time I just took a
(14:21):
moment of silence during theannouncements.
Didn't really clear withanybody, it was sort of
rebellious.
But I took a moment of silenceduring the announcements.
Didn't really clear withanybody, it was sort of
rebellious.
But I took a moment of silencebecause it was around that time
where I can't remember whoexactly was an unarmed black man
that was gunned down.
But then it also led to anattack of some police officers
in Dallas who were gunned down.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I remember that.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Yeah, I was taking a moment of silence for all of
that, but then the the, theannouncements got cut.
The person who led theannouncement said you did not
clear that with the principaland I was.
They said I couldn't do theannouncements anymore.
And I remember that even now islike man, like even though I
didn't clear it with theprincipal, I should have cleared
(15:04):
it with them.
It still felt like man, likeI'm not able to grieve this
tragedy that's affecting notonly black folks but also man,
those unarmed policemen inDallas, because of all of this.
And it just kind of grieved myspirit right there and I would
say since from that point in mysenior year that kind of led me
(15:26):
to some of the choices that Imade relationally in college.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
And so talk to us about the journey into a church
like Redeemer, which isobviously heavily multi-ethnic
and that's one of the emphasisthere, and, of course, the work
of RUF, which is historicallypredominantly been in white
(15:56):
spaces, white colleges, but thework of RUF in a predominantly
not predominantly, buthistorically Black university
and college like Jackson StateUniversity.
So talk to us about some ofthat bridge building labor and
work that you've been activatedin post high school.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Yeah, yeah.
There are like four years, from2016 to 2020, that I need to
gloss over before I answer thatquestion.
So, went to college, gotconverted maybe my sophomore
year became a Christian and thenalso in that kind of, became
tokenized, assimilated into thepredominantly white culture of
(16:39):
the campus, ministry and thechurch that I was a part of kind
of lost myself again.
But then I came to seminaryduring COVID, and it was when I
was at seminary from 2020 to2024, where I was surrounded by
just Black Christian men andwomen who just mentored me and
(17:00):
kind of healed the parts of mysoul that were assimilated, that
were tokenized, that reallydidn't know who they were.
It just shared the love ofJesus with me and I remember one
quote in specific.
Jasmine Holmes says in her bookMother to Son God made you
black on purpose, and the way Iinterpret that is you know, he
makes me black on purpose, notso that I can be a militant
(17:25):
secular activist black person orto to to use my blackness as a
weapon, but more so like God hascreated all of these cultures
distinctly that show howbeautiful he is.
Yes, and that in leaning intomy culture I actually lean into
how beautiful God is.
And God, as a master painter,uses all of these colors and
(17:48):
textures and brushstrokes thatwe know are ethnic groups to
paint a beautiful picture ofhumanity.
And it was that, maybe narrative, that led me into considering
working and being in Redeemerand being in RUF, but yeah, so
(18:08):
how I got into RUF, how I gotinto Redeemer, well, I knew at
maybe the tail end of my collegecareer that I wanted to be in a
multi-ethnic church.
Like I said, I've been in amulti-ethnic lifestyle my whole
life.
We had a missions conference atone of our campus ministries,
called Psalm 67.
And just by reading throughPsalm 67 and being in that
missions conference, I wasconvinced that God right now
(18:31):
wants me to be in a multi-ethnicspace.
This is where I feel the mostcomfortable.
This is where I feel this iswhere my journey is going.
It's not everybody's journey,but it's my journey, where I'm
going.
And so, yeah, I was looking formulti-ethnic churches in the
area.
I was leaning really towardsNew Orleans Baptist when I was
in college, but then the Lordled me towards RTS and it just
(18:52):
kind of made sense.
Elbert McGowan's video was onthe website of RTS Jackson.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Pastor Elbert from Redeemer.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Yeah yeah, pastor Elbert is the pastor at Redeemer
.
He was also the one thatplanted RUF Jackson State in
2009,.
First RUF at HBCU, yes, and soit just kind of made sense.
I had no idea about RUF when Iwas a senior in college, but I
would come to know it when I wasin seminary, and so that's what
(19:22):
led me into Redeemer when I gothere in 2020.
And then, from 2020 to 2024, Ijust had a series of
conversations with my pastorsBrian Galt, with Elmer McGowan,
with Wilson Jameson and someother RUF students at RTS
Jackson who were going toseminary.
(19:46):
They may have served as anintern on staff with RUF, but
they wanted to do seminary to bean ordained campus minister.
And I was like, well, I don'treally know what RUF is.
Somebody tell me what it isLike.
What is this college ministry?
What is this connection to thePCA?
What is all of this, and isthere a space to do a
multi-ethnic or black ministry?
(20:09):
In this context, and as I havemore conversations with guys
like Marcus Nobles, who does RUFat A&M, cyril Chavis, who does
RUF at Howard, and Elle, who didRUF at Jackson State, started
it, and Latasha Alston, whoserved at Jackson State as like
(20:30):
a for 10 years.
She has like a true RUF storyto where she was a student and
then became an intern.
They became campus staff andserved at that same campus for
10 plus years.
That just kind of alerted me tothe sense that this
predominantly white denominationhas an interest in becoming Go
(20:52):
ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
You were talking about.
You didn't know what RUF was.
For our audience.
Won't you give us a briefdefinition of what RUF stands
for and so forth and how that'saffiliated with universities and
other campus ministries?
Speaker 4 (21:09):
Yes, sir, yes sir.
So RUF stands for ReformedUniversity Fellowship.
Its mission is to reachstudents for Christ and equip
them to serve, and it is thecollege ministry of the
Presbyterian Church in America.
Presbyterian Church in Americais different than the
Presbyterian Church in theUnited States.
It's different than the otherPresbyterian denominations.
The Presbyterian Church inAmerica is different than the
(21:29):
Presbyterian Church in theUnited States, is different than
the other Presbyteriandenominations.
The Presbyterian Church inAmerica has been around since
1970s, founded in Birmingham,and RUF is the arm of, or the
extension of, the PresbytereringChurch on college campuses.
And maybe one of thedistinguishing factors between
(21:50):
RUF and BSU Wesley InterVarsity,the campus outreach crew, is
that, yeah, there's a strongemphasis on the local church and
to that point, you really don'thave a RUF without a ordained
man that is ordained in a PCAserving on campus.
(22:14):
And so, yeah, that's that's whyI'm going through the
ordination process, so that wecan bring that to Jackson State.
And I would say also, a bigpart of RUF that is distinct is
its commitment to a fixedtheology and a flexible
methodology.
Fixed theology in the sense towhere we're committed to the
(22:37):
faith, as we see it in our part,coming from the Westminster
Confession of Faith.
But every campus is going to doministry differently because
every campus has a specificdemographic, even across HBCUs,
and so there's a flexiblemethodology that characterizes
(22:57):
RUF.
But it's a gospel ministry.
We preach the gospel, we sharethe word with students across a
pulpit, across a table in theparking lot and we want to see
lives changed for the gospel.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So how do y'all interact with the other campus
ministries?
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Yeah, we, as the opportunities come up on Jackson
State, we kind of cultivate arelationship with the other
seven other six campusministries.
We are starting, we're reallyresurrecting a council of Campus
Ministries.
This year we have the WesleyInterVarsity Baptist Student
(23:35):
Union, fca.
There's a student-led ministry,rising Kingdom, and this past
year we partnered and we had aworship night on campus.
We had a sort of evangelistictraining time with Black Voices
Movement out of LA, with theother campus ministries, and so
I would say right now we're in aresurrecting, forming phase to
(23:58):
where, if all of the boards orthe leadership can get on one
accord in this next year we'llbe partnering and doing some of
the similar things that we didlast year.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
So your integration of all of this, how did Well I
guess I probably should make astatement rather than a question
but the intentionality of yourparents to have you in a
multicultural, multiracialsituation, as you have
intentionally done that as wellhow have that prepared you to
work in this, what some peoplemay perceive an all black
(24:34):
situation?
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Yeah, no, that's a that's a great question.
So I think, yeah, my, I thinkmy mom was very instrumental in
just instilling a love of myblackness, my dad as well.
But then I also think my dadprepared me well to receive and
love multiple cultures.
(24:58):
I think one because he is alsomarried interracially my
stepmother, my bonus mom, iswhite.
And then two, he's played MajorLeague Baseball and he's been,
you know, he's had teammatesfrom the Dominican Republic,
he's had teammates from Taiwanwhen he played in Taiwan, and so
I think he also imparted to methe wisdom in cultivating
(25:20):
cultural relationships andseeing the good in every culture
and every ethnicity.
But yeah, I think that me andBrian talked about this at
another time being at an HBCUreally does feel like I'm at
home, but also I feel like astranger in a sense, because for
(25:40):
one, I feel at home because I'mI mean, I'm black, you know
what I'm saying Like I'm in ablack campus and there's beauty
in, maybe, the micro diversityin HBCU.
You know, you've got studentsfrom all across the nation, all,
even even across the globe,that come to Jackson State from
St Louis, memphis, new Orleans,cali.
(26:01):
We've got some students fromBritain, from Queens and so, and
those are different types ofblack people and I just love
seeing that diversity on thecampus, but then too, I feel
like a stranger because HBCUculture is a different
microculture within blackness.
(26:21):
I think that it's family.
Yeah, it's family, it's family,yeah yeah, yeah, it's family.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
And the traditions the songs.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Yeah, the traditions, the songs, the history, like I
feel as if I'm a student reallyof Jackson State and of HBCU
culture in a sense.
I highly recommend to ourlisteners and to just y'all here
.
Man Aisha Roscoe wrote a bookcalled HBCU Made and she
collects essays from prominentcelebrities.
(26:57):
Stacey Abrams I think that'sher name, yeah, roy Wood Jr that
went to HBCUs and just kind oftalk about their experience.
That was helpful for me to kindof get a sense of how big the
sea is when you jump into thesea of HBCU culture.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Man, we do not have enough time for this pod bro.
We do not have enough time.
Austin, jump in man.
I know you got some questionsbro.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
I was because I love so much for your story, jermaine
, and it seems like you knowbecause we both went to the same
high school and actually I wasa part of UF all four years, not
at JSU, but all four years ofmy college life at Mississippi
College, with Joey Wright as thecampus leader and then Jeff
(27:46):
Jordan shortly after that.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
I'm sure you know Jeff I think he's heading out of
MC.
But, man, I just love to hearhow everything and how God has
just interwoven all of thesedifferent aspects and all these
different threads within yourstory, because I just think it's
so beautiful ethnic spaceswrestling with identity and
(28:09):
belonging, walking through allof these seasons of performance
and ultimately just coming to aplace where you find healing and
wholeness in Christ.
So part of your journey justseems to like just be preparing
you for the work that you arecurrently doing.
And now you've stepped intothis calling of RUF at Jackson
(28:30):
State.
I just think that's beautiful.
Beginning to do this reallyintentional work on the XBCU
campuses, you've been able toconnect with a lot of people
that you have been able to seedo the work for you.
So you found mentorship.
I'm just seeing all these reallygood signs within your story
that I think, from a Christianperspective, I think we want to
(28:51):
really want to focus on and ontop of that, you're not doing
your work in isolation.
You're finding out how you canbe in combined relational work
with BSU, fsa, the WesleyFoundation I think you mentioned
(29:13):
CRU.
My cousin was also a campusdirector for Crew for, I think
over in Alabama, I think, theHuntsville campus.
I don't know where he's atright now, though.
So I mean it's this reallybeautiful picture of just how
you've been able to work withinthis body of Christ, both the
white world, the black world,this up on Christ, both the
white world, the black world,all the different denominational
boundaries that you're able tojust wander through while also
(29:34):
remaining true to the Reformedfaith that God has called you
into.
So I guess I want to hear, basedon the experience you've had
thus far, based on your story,your calling, the mission of RUF
, the partners that you've beenable to build, how do you see
(29:55):
God, just like all of thesepieces together to reach and to
disciple students at JacksonState?
What kind of work is God doingright now that you can kind of
foresee, like?
What do you see happening inthe next year?
How do you see some of thesekids being just deeply, deeply
(30:17):
impacted?
How are you helping themovercome some of the same
challenges?
You know the seasons ofperformance, all of that, being
able to find your own identity,and just a sea of influences and
expectations.
So like, how do you, how do yousee yourself being able to be
(30:39):
used by God for these similarthings in their lives.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good question.
You know, I'm reminded of whenJohn the Baptist was in his
ministry and he's this crazy manin the wilderness, dressed in
camel hair, eating honey andlocusts, and he says I don't
know about the locusts, but goahead.
And he says I don't know aboutthe locusts, but go ahead.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
It's clear you've never been to the insectarium in
New Orleans and gotten a Cajundip.
Locust Sources of protein youneed it.
You need it.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
Exactly.
But yeah, but John the Baptist.
He says you know, I mustdecrease, he must increase, and
that has maybe been what I'vereturned to over this course of
this year that I've been atJackson State.
The Lord has used my life andhas shaped me so much, and yet I
(31:53):
think the only way that I canimpart the mere wisdom that God
has given me over my time is Ifirst need to listen, and I need
to listen to the stories ofglory and ruin that come forth
from my students.
I've talked to a lot ofstudents, but over the course of
my year I've just heard storiesof deep relational heartbreak.
Parents that man are in the homeand married, but you would
(32:16):
think that they are strangers.
Students that have struggledwith suicidal ideations,
struggle with anxiety anddepression.
They're asking you know, doesGod want me to join a Greek
organization?
How do I get connected?
How do I spend my money?
They've been on the run frompolice.
They've been achievers in theirown right in their church, but
(32:37):
they don't know how to pray.
And so it's just.
I think the way that God hasmolded me has allowed me to step
aside so that I can hold spacefor them and their becoming, and
I think it helps me to see thatman, these students are in the
crucible.
(32:58):
Now it is their time to growand they could grow into the
world or they could grow intoChrist, into Christ.
And in the snapshot of timethat I have with them, it's my
responsibility to point themaway from finding their identity
(33:22):
and finding their meaning inthe world and to find their
meaning and identity in God.
And we've seen that this year.
I was talking to a student andhe grew up in a homogenized life
.
He went to Jackson publicschools, went to a predominantly
black church.
For all intents and purposes hedidn't really have a close
relationship with a white person.
And even at the beginning ofthe year, maybe in August,
(33:42):
september, we were talking andhe told me I don't see the
relevance, I don't see theimportance of having somebody
white in my life, it doesn'tmean anything.
And then we get like, over theyear I've met with him
repeatedly, he's one of myclosest leaders uh, going
through the book of Ephesiansand we come to May and he tells
(34:03):
me, and he tells my wife, likeI'm so thankful that I know
Laurie, laurie's my wife.
Uh, laurie is probably the onlywhite person that I know, and
she is a friend of mine now,like it's a blessing, and I was
like, wow, that is beautiful,right, god, tearing down walls,
(34:25):
but not even hostile walls, moreso, just like walls that we
don't really know they're thereAlso, just like walls that we
don't really know.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
They're there, right.
Why they're there?
Speaker 4 (34:33):
Yes, walls of ignorance.
Yes, sir, and so maybe that'sone story that I think about all
the time.
Another story I think about is,yeah, like students are hungry
for the word, I think I've seenon several podcasts, several
books, that Gen Z is actuallywanting the faith.
(34:54):
They're zealous for the word,zealous for Christian community,
and I would say that's probablywhat we've seen this past year,
as, when we look at RUF as aministry man, students have been
hungry for Christian community.
They're on campus and they havecommunity in their classes or
in their majors, but they don'treally have a distinct Christian
(35:17):
community where they can bringtheir questions and their
struggles about faith, and thatis what RUF has become for these
students.
And so, looking ahead to thenext year, what I really, I
would say my biggest prayer ormy biggest ask from God, is for
him to break up the cliques inRUF and really just across the
(35:39):
campus ministries, because, man,like the beauty of the church,
is that you have all of thesepeople from different political
organizations, differentethnicities, different classes,
different educations, and you'rebringing them into one space
knit by the blood of Christ andthat's kind of what I want our
(35:59):
students in this next year atRUF to lean into.
You've got students here whowent to private school.
You've got students that grewup in the hood.
You've got students that grewup in a two-parent household and
they're the only child.
You've got students here thatare on full scholarship, and
then you got students that areworking two jobs to put
themselves through school.
(36:20):
I want my students, especiallymy student leaders, to lean into
loving all of the students thatare in our group Practically't
like practically and reasonably.
We can't love everybody oncampus in the way that we can
love somebody that's close to us, um, but as far as RUF is
(36:40):
concerned, I want our studentsreally just to to love one
another, to have conversationswith people that you don't know
in the ministry, cause I thinkthat starts the the wheel of
love turning um in our ministry.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah, while, while, while you're praying for our UF,
lift a few prayers up for ourlocal churches as well.
That they would, that theywould de-click and uh, and adopt
that same love posture, becauseI think it's something that we
all, we all need to embrace.
Yeah, yeah, and I was gonna saythat's, that's another thing.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Like there we often say you know you're not doing
RUF if you're not connectingstudents to the local church.
Yeah, so that's why I thinkit's all the more apparent,
apparent that our students learnto love one another, because
that prepares them for when yougraduate and you don't have
ministry.
Well now you need to transfereverything that you've learned.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And because the diversity expands, the diversity
expands.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Yes, yeah, the diversity expands the
experiences, the variety ofexperiences expands, and these
students, the local churchfamily with families in the
church and older men and womenwho have gone through life to be
with them as they're goingthrough their college.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Absolutely, instead of afterwards.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
You're absolutely right.
They need those relationshipswhile they're freshmen.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
While they're sophomores yes.
Hey, you know, brian, I've beenwanting to do this ever since
we started this podcast.
You ended by saying putting abow on it.
I think Jermaine has put a bowon this thing for us, and so
I've been wanting to say that,man, am I still your incredible
friend?
Because I said he put a bow onit.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
No, no, no, no.
He has definitely put a bow onit in many ways.
This no, no, no, no.
He has definitely put a bow onit in many ways.
This is how I want to wrap itup.
Jermaine, I got two things.
(38:49):
I would love for youopportunity for reconciliation.
From your perspective and yourvantage point, what's the
greatest challenge you're facedwith?
What's the greatest opportunitythat you see?
Speaker 4 (39:01):
They both could be the same.
Yeah, absolutely yeah, you know, I think that they really are
(39:23):
the same, nettie, and I mean Ihate to give a Sunday school
answer, but it really is.
The challenge to reconciliationis a sinful heart an
opportunity?
It's a challenge because, nomatter what program you do, no
matter what Bible study you takesomebody through, no matter
what experience you try to craftfor them, if their heart is
hard, they're not going to beable to receive the goodness and
(39:45):
the love of what's happening.
But it's an opportunity becauseman, the gospel, is just so
powerful, it's sotransformational that it takes
that heart of stone and gives ita heart of flesh, a heart
that's able to respond to thegoodness of God.
(40:05):
And I believe thatreconciliation, right as Paul
says, is part of God's heart.
Right, we are called to bringpeople from death to life by the
gospel, by the Holy Spirit.
And so I think that, becausethe problem, from my vantage
point, is the sinful,tribalistic, selfish rebellion
(40:27):
of the human heart, especiallyin our Gen Z, the opportunity is
also receiving the gospel andmeeting a Black Gen Z's love for
the gospel and love for church,love for God, meeting that with
sound gospel teaching and say,hey, this faith that is around
(40:50):
you, this church thing that yourparents have done, these songs
that you sing all the time.
They have real, eternal meaningfor the way that you relate to
the people around you and theway that you think about
cross-cultural relationships.
Let's have that conversation.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Jermaine, how can folks keep up with you, brother?
Speaker 4 (41:16):
How can you keep up with me?
You can follow me on Instagram.
You can follow me on FacebookJermaine Jr.
On Instagram Facebook JermaineVan Buren.
You can also follow RUF onInstagram RUFJSU.
You can also follow RUF onInstagram RUFJSU.
And we have a website as well.
Just Google RUF, jackson State,it'll take you to our website.
(41:38):
And then, yeah, if you want totalk, if you want to connect
with me, just reach out to Brian.
He has my contact info.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
My email is simple jermainevanburen at RUForg.
Excellent, excellent.
Jermaine, thank you so verymuch for your time.
Thank you so very much for theministry and your careful,
careful, careful care of thatministry and of the students at
Jackson State University.
Man, we need more people in thefaith like you, man, in the
(42:12):
trenches on our college campuses, and so we're grateful for you.
This has been an excellentpodcast with our friend Jermaine
and with my good friends Nettieand Austin.
Let me make a plug.
This is the first plug of theyear.
On September the 25th, at sixo'clock, we will be hosting our
Living Reconciled Celebrationthis year on the college campus
(42:35):
of Mississippi College, andersonHall.
We would love for you to goahead and plug that date in your
calendar.
Save the date.
We plan on having an incredibleevening with more details to
come, but we want you to goahead and plug that date on your
calendar right now.
September the 25th MississippiCollege Living Reconciled
Celebration 2025.
(42:56):
We'll be on a college campuswhere we can interact with more
people like Jermaine and collegestudents, like the wonderful
and beautiful students atJackson State University,
mississippi College and anyother college across the state,
and we want you to be there tocelebrate the oneness that we
have in Christ Jesus together.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
I got a challenge for Jermaine that he'll bring some
of those students to that event.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Amen.
Speaker 4 (43:22):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Amen, amen, amen.
It's been a great podcast.
Thank you so much, jermaine,and thanks to my brothers,
austin and Nettie.
On behalf of those two brothersand myself, we're signing off
saying God bless.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
God bless, god bless.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
God bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled.
(00:32):
I am your host, brian Crawford,and I am with my good friends
Nettie Winters, austin Hoyle,co-hosts.
Gentlemen, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Wonderful man.
I'm just thankful each weekthat I'm your incredible friend.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I know you remind me every week it's like my weekly
check-in to let me know that Imatter in life.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
You matter in life.
Well, that's good.
I'm glad to hear that my kindcomments on the beginning of a
podcast can help you know thatyou matter, man.
There's a lot of other peoplethat matter, by the way
(01:21):
no-transcript and Mr Robert Ward.
Thank you guys so much.
In the words of Austin, youmatter to Mission Mississippi
even if you didn't sponsor us,but you certainly matter to us.
Because of you we're able to dowhat we do, and what we're able
to do is have a greatconversation, like we do week in
and week out, greatconversations with great people
(01:41):
all over the state and evenbeyond.
Today, one of our greatconversations is going to be had
with a friend, jermaine VanBuren Jr.
Jermaine Van Buren Jr.
We will hear much about hislife and story, but he is the
campus director for the JacksonState University chapter of the
Reform University Fellowship.
(02:02):
Jermaine is a husband, he is apastor or elder, he is a leader
in the Presbyterian Church,particularly the Presbyterian
Church where he serves RedeemerChurch in the heart of Jackson
Mississippi, right there onNorthside Drive, and it's a
(02:23):
pleasure to have Jermaine on thepod today.
Brother, how are you doing?
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Man, I'm doing great.
What a great introduction.
What a great introduction.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Man, we try our best, isn't that right, nettie?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Absolutely, man.
I'd like to take you on theroad with me.
Man, to introduce me.
But you know you pointed outsome friends of ours as they
sponsored the broadcast and thepodcast.
You know, austin and I are justincredible friends.
Now, those friends are what?
What are they?
Great, incredible friends.
How do you describe you know?
(02:56):
Anyway, go on with your.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Special, special friends.
They're special friends Veryspecial, all right.
They're very special, veryspecial, very special, very
special.
So, jermaine brother, we wouldlove to hear a little bit about
your life and story.
Just to start out this episode.
If you don't mind, take amoment and tell us a little bit
about your family, tell us alittle bit about how you came to
faith and tell us about how youended up at RUF on the campus
(03:23):
of Jackson State Universityended up at RUF on the campus of
Jackson State University.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah, yeah.
So I was born in Hattiesburg,mississippi, and I've lived all
18 of my years in Hattiesburg.
I moved around a couple times,but I call Hattiesburg my home.
I'm a burg built home of thebase burg.
You know the dirty burg as somehave called it.
Uh, but I I do love Hattiesburg.
I still love that greensnowball stand on Broadway drive
(03:51):
.
Uh, where it stood the test oftime even through hurricane
Katrina.
Um, and so I've.
I've been in, um, like I said,grown up in Hattiesburg.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
You mean in all the places that got damaged by the
storm, the snowball place stands.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
The snowball place stands the test of time, and
that's a sermon in and of itself.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
You know I'm going to go back there next time in
Hattiesburg, and I got to get asnowball from that place.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
You do, you do.
You need to go get a Tiger'sBlood or a Tutti Frutti snowball
.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I get a Tutti.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Frutti I don't like to wear a tag or anything.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I think I grew up going to that stand man.
I must have been walking therewhen I was a kid, because I
remember the Tiger.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
I know you did.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
I grew up drinking Tiger's Blood.
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
So I grew up going to Mount Olive Baptist Church with
Reverend Arthur Sigur he'sactually my cousin and then we
shifted, when my mom gotremarried, to Shady Grove
Missionary Baptist Church withReverend Reginald Willard Jr as
the pastor missionary Baptisttradition and I was man just so
(05:04):
formed by the men and women inthat church who loved me and
gave me a space to lead.
But also there were some keymen and women there that just
also checked my soul and askedme like, well, how are you doing
really?
You're singing all the time,you're teaching Sunday school,
you're doing all of this, buthow are you doing really?
(05:25):
And I think that's probablywhere God planted a seed in me.
I didn't really come to faithuntil college, but while I was
in high school, middle school,my whole life was school, church
and school and church and sleep, sleep and school and church,
(05:45):
and so, yeah, my parents gotdivorced.
When I was young, dad played inMLB, played for a couple teams
that y'all might know.
Some of y'all might not likethe teams, but he played for the
Red Sox Washington Nationals.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, he played on the minor league team on the
Washington Nation nationals.
He did.
Uh, yeah, yeah, I saw, I sawthe jersey, I saw.
Well, I I'll go ahead and say Ilooked up jermaine van berwin
online because I was like man,jermaine van berwin, I know I
can find something aboutjermaine van berwin online.
And then I was like, wait asecond, he is a junior and the
son of a major league baseballplayer.
That was an interesting tidbitthat I did not know before this
(06:27):
pod.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And I actually got prepared to interview your
father.
But when I saw you I was likeyou guys look very different and
you look a lot younger than thephotos I found online.
No, I'm just joking.
I'm just joking.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Right, right, right, right, right, right.
Yeah, that would be a differentinterview entirely.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, yeah, right, right, right, right yeah that
would be a different interviewentirely.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely man, but yeah, so,
and I grew up playing baseball,but I really found my passion in
high school when I did speechand debate in theater, and so
that's that's really.
When I was in high school.
I would spend my weekends goingto speech and debate
tournaments, preparing andmemorizing lines.
Yeah Is.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Shane still the debate coach at Oak Grove.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Shane Cole.
He is still the debate coach atOak Grove.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
His first year was the year after my last year in
speech and debate in thatprogram.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Yeah, no, actually it's a great program.
I really think, like when I getinto, when I talk about, like
you know, my calling as a pastor, I really think my time and
speech and debate has shaped theway I communicate.
But yeah, when I grew up, Iobviously grew up in a church
but, like I said, even though Ihad people around me that shaped
(07:42):
me and formed me, I didn'treally know what it meant to be
a Christian, didn't really knowwhat it meant to live out the
gospel in a saving way, and sothat just kind of led to a lot
of performance andself-righteousness.
I could put on a face beforethe right people but not really
have any spiritual fruit.
And then, when it comes to myracial awakening, I mean I've
(08:05):
always been, since I was young,in a predominantly black church
but going to a predominantlywhite school, and then, because
of the circles that I'm in, I'vealways been in sort of a
multi-ethnic context.
My best friends growing up weretwo black men, moses Williams
and Tony Romanek, who were boththeater, both artists, and then
(08:33):
I had a Vietnamese friend,hispanic friend and a couple of
white friends are probably likemy close knit friend group, and
so I've always kind of just hada multi-ethnic upbringing and my
mom that's kind of how my momraised us but also raised us to
have to be, to beunapologetically Black and to
lean into the goodness of Blackculture, and I kind of saw that.
Like you know, black movies,love and Basketball, boys in the
(08:54):
Hood Higher Learning a lot ofSpike Lee.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Coming to America.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Coming to America.
But also you know Fred Hammett,kirk Franklin, brett Brown,
clark, just some of the staplesof gospel music.
But it was hard when I was inhigh school I don't really know
who I was.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
A lot of people call me a choreo when you say it was
hard.
Fold it just a little bit.
What was hard?
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, I think it was hard because when I was in high
school I didn't really know whoI was and so because I was an
actor, it's part of that likeputting on.
You know, if I go back andforth between certain groups, I
can put on and not really knowwho Jermaine is.
So when I'm with the blackfolks, I'll be black Jermaine.
(09:37):
When I'm with the in my APclasses, I'll be smart Jermaine.
When I'm in the white circles,I'll be smart Jermaine.
When I'm in the white circles,I'll be white Jermaine.
And so you know it's just it.
A lot of people called me andsome other students, black
students, Oreos.
You know you're black on theoutside but you're white on the
inside because maybe you talkedwell or you listen to Paramore.
(10:00):
You know many different reasons, and so I think that kind of
was difficult for me when I wasin my adolescence to walk
through.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
You know we talk about code switching a lot in
social circles as it relates toprofessional space.
You know, in terms of codeswitching, when you you know
you're one persona at home, thenyou code switch to be another
persona in whatever company thatyou happen to be in when you're
living out your vocational life.
But we don't talk about howthat plays out, even for some in
(10:35):
their youth, you know, based onthe multi-ethnic and
multicultural experiences thatthey have to be involved in, and
so you can, literally, you know, I remember similar Jermaine,
growing up in a predominantlywhite Catholic school and living
in a predominantly workingclass.
You know, black neighborhoodand and all the time spending
(10:59):
all my days after school at apredominantly black barbershop
or or beauty shop, because mydad and my dad was a barber, my
mom was a cosmetologist and soand so, yeah, making those
switches and adjustments andbeing not even necessarily
knowing who you are, so to speak.
Yeah, that's really interesting, man.
Keep continue to elaborate, man, on some of the challenges that
(11:21):
you faced in that.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Yeah, yeah, I will say that, like man, even amidst
the challenges, the barbershophas always been a place to where
I felt like a safe space forblack manhood.
Now, mind you, theconversations were not always
safe, right, Like you know,depending on where you are on
the political spectrum, rapspectrum, whatever, like you're
(11:46):
going to hear everything.
But I think it definitely feltlike a place to where, as a
black man, you can go speak yourmind, maybe even be comforted
like have it's kind of felt likelike a black mental health,
black self-aware.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
It absolutely was a black, a black man's therapeutic
center.
Goodness.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
I remember the names of my barbers over the years
more than I remember members ofmy own family like Jerry, aunt
Benny, maurice Q Blocker and nowTimothy Love.
Those are my men.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yes, yes, absolutely, brother, Talk to me.
Yeah, keep, those are my men.
Yes, yes, absolutely brother,talk to me.
Yeah, keep going, keep going.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Well, I was going to say I think another part of what
was hard was my senior year ofhigh school.
I started to.
I've always written poetry, butI noticed that in my senior
year of high school I would sayI experienced maybe more of a
blackening, a black awakening.
Senior year of high school, Iwould say I experienced maybe
more of a blackening, a blackawakening.
(12:51):
I had joined well, I hadcrossed into Hattiesburg Kappa
League, which is you know forthose who don't know is a junior
auxiliary of Kappa, Alpha Psi,and when I was in that junior
auxiliary community serviceorganization, man, I feel like
there was a part of me that feltmore legitimate in my blackness
I actually had like brothers,so to speak, where we spent time
(13:11):
together, we were serving thecommunity together, we were
hanging out together, we weregoing through the same process
together.
I actually feel like I had achance to meet people that went
to Hattiesburg High and formedrelationships with them and it
just kind of opened my eyes tosee some of the beauty of
Blackness that maybe I wasn'tleaning into wholly at Oak Grove
(13:33):
, but it was hard because Iwould experience that and that
was like a junior auxiliary.
I spent maybe one hour a weekwith them.
But then the whole eight hoursof my experience at Oak Grove
was predominantly white and soit was kind of hard to navigate
that.
But yeah, as I think back towhere I was mentally in that
space when I was in high school,my poetry and my thoughts, I
(13:58):
would say, started to get alittle bit more militant or
activated in blackness and inculture.
I remember one time I used tolead the announcements at the
school because of my theater'sfolks who speaks to debate role
Every morning they always haveannouncements and I would come
in and do the announcements onetime, and one time I just took a
(14:21):
moment of silence during theannouncements.
Didn't really clear withanybody, it was sort of
rebellious.
But I took a moment of silenceduring the announcements.
Didn't really clear withanybody, it was sort of
rebellious.
But I took a moment of silencebecause it was around that time
where I can't remember whoexactly was an unarmed black man
that was gunned down.
But then it also led to anattack of some police officers
in Dallas who were gunned down.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I remember that.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Yeah, I was taking a moment of silence for all of
that, but then the the, theannouncements got cut.
The person who led theannouncement said you did not
clear that with the principaland I was.
They said I couldn't do theannouncements anymore.
And I remember that even now islike man, like even though I
didn't clear it with theprincipal, I should have cleared
(15:04):
it with them.
It still felt like man, likeI'm not able to grieve this
tragedy that's affecting notonly black folks but also man,
those unarmed policemen inDallas, because of all of this.
And it just kind of grieved myspirit right there and I would
say since from that point in mysenior year that kind of led me
(15:26):
to some of the choices that Imade relationally in college.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
And so talk to us about the journey into a church
like Redeemer, which isobviously heavily multi-ethnic
and that's one of the emphasisthere, and, of course, the work
of RUF, which is historicallypredominantly been in white
(15:56):
spaces, white colleges, but thework of RUF in a predominantly
not predominantly, buthistorically Black university
and college like Jackson StateUniversity.
So talk to us about some ofthat bridge building labor and
work that you've been activatedin post high school.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Yeah, yeah.
There are like four years, from2016 to 2020, that I need to
gloss over before I answer thatquestion.
So, went to college, gotconverted maybe my sophomore
year became a Christian and thenalso in that kind of, became
tokenized, assimilated into thepredominantly white culture of
(16:39):
the campus, ministry and thechurch that I was a part of kind
of lost myself again.
But then I came to seminaryduring COVID, and it was when I
was at seminary from 2020 to2024, where I was surrounded by
just Black Christian men andwomen who just mentored me and
(17:00):
kind of healed the parts of mysoul that were assimilated, that
were tokenized, that reallydidn't know who they were.
It just shared the love ofJesus with me and I remember one
quote in specific.
Jasmine Holmes says in her bookMother to Son God made you
black on purpose, and the way Iinterpret that is you know, he
makes me black on purpose, notso that I can be a militant
(17:25):
secular activist black person orto to to use my blackness as a
weapon, but more so like God hascreated all of these cultures
distinctly that show howbeautiful he is.
Yes, and that in leaning intomy culture I actually lean into
how beautiful God is.
And God, as a master painter,uses all of these colors and
(17:48):
textures and brushstrokes thatwe know are ethnic groups to
paint a beautiful picture ofhumanity.
And it was that, maybe narrative, that led me into considering
working and being in Redeemerand being in RUF, but yeah, so
(18:08):
how I got into RUF, how I gotinto Redeemer, well, I knew at
maybe the tail end of my collegecareer that I wanted to be in a
multi-ethnic church.
Like I said, I've been in amulti-ethnic lifestyle my whole
life.
We had a missions conference atone of our campus ministries,
called Psalm 67.
And just by reading throughPsalm 67 and being in that
missions conference, I wasconvinced that God right now
(18:31):
wants me to be in a multi-ethnicspace.
This is where I feel the mostcomfortable.
This is where I feel this iswhere my journey is going.
It's not everybody's journey,but it's my journey, where I'm
going.
And so, yeah, I was looking formulti-ethnic churches in the
area.
I was leaning really towardsNew Orleans Baptist when I was
in college, but then the Lordled me towards RTS and it just
(18:52):
kind of made sense.
Elbert McGowan's video was onthe website of RTS Jackson.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Pastor Elbert from Redeemer.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Yeah yeah, pastor Elbert is the pastor at Redeemer
.
He was also the one thatplanted RUF Jackson State in
2009,.
First RUF at HBCU, yes, and soit just kind of made sense.
I had no idea about RUF when Iwas a senior in college, but I
would come to know it when I wasin seminary, and so that's what
(19:22):
led me into Redeemer when I gothere in 2020.
And then, from 2020 to 2024, Ijust had a series of
conversations with my pastorsBrian Galt, with Elmer McGowan,
with Wilson Jameson and someother RUF students at RTS
Jackson who were going toseminary.
(19:46):
They may have served as anintern on staff with RUF, but
they wanted to do seminary to bean ordained campus minister.
And I was like, well, I don'treally know what RUF is.
Somebody tell me what it isLike.
What is this college ministry?
What is this connection to thePCA?
What is all of this, and isthere a space to do a
multi-ethnic or black ministry?
(20:09):
In this context, and as I havemore conversations with guys
like Marcus Nobles, who does RUFat A&M, cyril Chavis, who does
RUF at Howard, and Elle, who didRUF at Jackson State, started
it, and Latasha Alston, whoserved at Jackson State as like
(20:30):
a for 10 years.
She has like a true RUF storyto where she was a student and
then became an intern.
They became campus staff andserved at that same campus for
10 plus years.
That just kind of alerted me tothe sense that this
predominantly white denominationhas an interest in becoming Go
(20:52):
ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
You were talking about.
You didn't know what RUF was.
For our audience.
Won't you give us a briefdefinition of what RUF stands
for and so forth and how that'saffiliated with universities and
other campus ministries?
Speaker 4 (21:09):
Yes, sir, yes sir.
So RUF stands for ReformedUniversity Fellowship.
Its mission is to reachstudents for Christ and equip
them to serve, and it is thecollege ministry of the
Presbyterian Church in America.
Presbyterian Church in Americais different than the
Presbyterian Church in theUnited States.
It's different than the otherPresbyterian denominations.
The Presbyterian Church inAmerica is different than the
(21:29):
Presbyterian Church in theUnited States, is different than
the other Presbyteriandenominations.
The Presbyterian Church inAmerica has been around since
1970s, founded in Birmingham,and RUF is the arm of, or the
extension of, the PresbytereringChurch on college campuses.
And maybe one of thedistinguishing factors between
(21:50):
RUF and BSU Wesley InterVarsity,the campus outreach crew, is
that, yeah, there's a strongemphasis on the local church and
to that point, you really don'thave a RUF without a ordained
man that is ordained in a PCAserving on campus.
(22:14):
And so, yeah, that's that's whyI'm going through the
ordination process, so that wecan bring that to Jackson State.
And I would say also, a bigpart of RUF that is distinct is
its commitment to a fixedtheology and a flexible
methodology.
Fixed theology in the sense towhere we're committed to the
(22:37):
faith, as we see it in our part,coming from the Westminster
Confession of Faith.
But every campus is going to doministry differently because
every campus has a specificdemographic, even across HBCUs,
and so there's a flexiblemethodology that characterizes
(22:57):
RUF.
But it's a gospel ministry.
We preach the gospel, we sharethe word with students across a
pulpit, across a table in theparking lot and we want to see
lives changed for the gospel.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So how do y'all interact with the other campus
ministries?
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Yeah, we, as the opportunities come up on Jackson
State, we kind of cultivate arelationship with the other
seven other six campusministries.
We are starting, we're reallyresurrecting a council of Campus
Ministries.
This year we have the WesleyInterVarsity Baptist Student
(23:35):
Union, fca.
There's a student-led ministry,rising Kingdom, and this past
year we partnered and we had aworship night on campus.
We had a sort of evangelistictraining time with Black Voices
Movement out of LA, with theother campus ministries, and so
I would say right now we're in aresurrecting, forming phase to
(23:58):
where, if all of the boards orthe leadership can get on one
accord in this next year we'llbe partnering and doing some of
the similar things that we didlast year.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
So your integration of all of this, how did Well I
guess I probably should make astatement rather than a question
but the intentionality of yourparents to have you in a
multicultural, multiracialsituation, as you have
intentionally done that as wellhow have that prepared you to
work in this, what some peoplemay perceive an all black
(24:34):
situation?
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Yeah, no, that's a that's a great question.
So I think, yeah, my, I thinkmy mom was very instrumental in
just instilling a love of myblackness, my dad as well.
But then I also think my dadprepared me well to receive and
love multiple cultures.
(24:58):
I think one because he is alsomarried interracially my
stepmother, my bonus mom, iswhite.
And then two, he's played MajorLeague Baseball and he's been,
you know, he's had teammatesfrom the Dominican Republic,
he's had teammates from Taiwanwhen he played in Taiwan, and so
I think he also imparted to methe wisdom in cultivating
(25:20):
cultural relationships andseeing the good in every culture
and every ethnicity.
But yeah, I think that me andBrian talked about this at
another time being at an HBCUreally does feel like I'm at
home, but also I feel like astranger in a sense, because for
(25:40):
one, I feel at home because I'mI mean, I'm black, you know
what I'm saying Like I'm in ablack campus and there's beauty
in, maybe, the micro diversityin HBCU.
You know, you've got studentsfrom all across the nation, all,
even even across the globe,that come to Jackson State from
St Louis, memphis, new Orleans,cali.
(26:01):
We've got some students fromBritain, from Queens and so, and
those are different types ofblack people and I just love
seeing that diversity on thecampus, but then too, I feel
like a stranger because HBCUculture is a different
microculture within blackness.
(26:21):
I think that it's family.
Yeah, it's family, it's family,yeah yeah, yeah, it's family.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
And the traditions the songs.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Yeah, the traditions, the songs, the history, like I
feel as if I'm a student reallyof Jackson State and of HBCU
culture in a sense.
I highly recommend to ourlisteners and to just y'all here
.
Man Aisha Roscoe wrote a bookcalled HBCU Made and she
collects essays from prominentcelebrities.
(26:57):
Stacey Abrams I think that'sher name, yeah, roy Wood Jr that
went to HBCUs and just kind oftalk about their experience.
That was helpful for me to kindof get a sense of how big the
sea is when you jump into thesea of HBCU culture.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Man, we do not have enough time for this pod bro.
We do not have enough time.
Austin, jump in man.
I know you got some questionsbro.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
I was because I love so much for your story, jermaine
, and it seems like you knowbecause we both went to the same
high school and actually I wasa part of UF all four years, not
at JSU, but all four years ofmy college life at Mississippi
College, with Joey Wright as thecampus leader and then Jeff
(27:46):
Jordan shortly after that.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
I'm sure you know Jeff I think he's heading out of
MC.
But, man, I just love to hearhow everything and how God has
just interwoven all of thesedifferent aspects and all these
different threads within yourstory, because I just think it's
so beautiful ethnic spaceswrestling with identity and
(28:09):
belonging, walking through allof these seasons of performance
and ultimately just coming to aplace where you find healing and
wholeness in Christ.
So part of your journey justseems to like just be preparing
you for the work that you arecurrently doing.
And now you've stepped intothis calling of RUF at Jackson
(28:30):
State.
I just think that's beautiful.
Beginning to do this reallyintentional work on the XBCU
campuses, you've been able toconnect with a lot of people
that you have been able to seedo the work for you.
So you found mentorship.
I'm just seeing all these reallygood signs within your story
that I think, from a Christianperspective, I think we want to
(28:51):
really want to focus on and ontop of that, you're not doing
your work in isolation.
You're finding out how you canbe in combined relational work
with BSU, fsa, the WesleyFoundation I think you mentioned
(29:13):
CRU.
My cousin was also a campusdirector for Crew for, I think
over in Alabama, I think, theHuntsville campus.
I don't know where he's atright now, though.
So I mean it's this reallybeautiful picture of just how
you've been able to work withinthis body of Christ, both the
white world, the black world,this up on Christ, both the
white world, the black world,all the different denominational
boundaries that you're able tojust wander through while also
(29:34):
remaining true to the Reformedfaith that God has called you
into.
So I guess I want to hear, basedon the experience you've had
thus far, based on your story,your calling, the mission of RUF
, the partners that you've beenable to build, how do you see
(29:55):
God, just like all of thesepieces together to reach and to
disciple students at JacksonState?
What kind of work is God doingright now that you can kind of
foresee, like?
What do you see happening inthe next year?
How do you see some of thesekids being just deeply, deeply
(30:17):
impacted?
How are you helping themovercome some of the same
challenges?
You know the seasons ofperformance, all of that, being
able to find your own identity,and just a sea of influences and
expectations.
So like, how do you, how do yousee yourself being able to be
(30:39):
used by God for these similarthings in their lives.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good question.
You know, I'm reminded of whenJohn the Baptist was in his
ministry and he's this crazy manin the wilderness, dressed in
camel hair, eating honey andlocusts, and he says I don't
know about the locusts, but goahead.
And he says I don't know aboutthe locusts, but go ahead.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
It's clear you've never been to the insectarium in
New Orleans and gotten a Cajundip.
Locust Sources of protein youneed it.
You need it.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
Exactly.
But yeah, but John the Baptist.
He says you know, I mustdecrease, he must increase, and
that has maybe been what I'vereturned to over this course of
this year that I've been atJackson State.
The Lord has used my life andhas shaped me so much, and yet I
(31:53):
think the only way that I canimpart the mere wisdom that God
has given me over my time is Ifirst need to listen, and I need
to listen to the stories ofglory and ruin that come forth
from my students.
I've talked to a lot ofstudents, but over the course of
my year I've just heard storiesof deep relational heartbreak.
Parents that man are in the homeand married, but you would
(32:16):
think that they are strangers.
Students that have struggledwith suicidal ideations,
struggle with anxiety anddepression.
They're asking you know, doesGod want me to join a Greek
organization?
How do I get connected?
How do I spend my money?
They've been on the run frompolice.
They've been achievers in theirown right in their church, but
(32:37):
they don't know how to pray.
And so it's just.
I think the way that God hasmolded me has allowed me to step
aside so that I can hold spacefor them and their becoming, and
I think it helps me to see thatman, these students are in the
crucible.
(32:58):
Now it is their time to growand they could grow into the
world or they could grow intoChrist, into Christ.
And in the snapshot of timethat I have with them, it's my
responsibility to point themaway from finding their identity
(33:22):
and finding their meaning inthe world and to find their
meaning and identity in God.
And we've seen that this year.
I was talking to a student andhe grew up in a homogenized life
.
He went to Jackson publicschools, went to a predominantly
black church.
For all intents and purposes hedidn't really have a close
relationship with a white person.
And even at the beginning ofthe year, maybe in August,
(33:42):
september, we were talking andhe told me I don't see the
relevance, I don't see theimportance of having somebody
white in my life, it doesn'tmean anything.
And then we get like, over theyear I've met with him
repeatedly, he's one of myclosest leaders uh, going
through the book of Ephesiansand we come to May and he tells
(34:03):
me, and he tells my wife, likeI'm so thankful that I know
Laurie, laurie's my wife.
Uh, laurie is probably the onlywhite person that I know, and
she is a friend of mine now,like it's a blessing, and I was
like, wow, that is beautiful,right, god, tearing down walls,
(34:25):
but not even hostile walls, moreso, just like walls that we
don't really know they're thereAlso, just like walls that we
don't really know.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
They're there, right.
Why they're there?
Speaker 4 (34:33):
Yes, walls of ignorance.
Yes, sir, and so maybe that'sone story that I think about all
the time.
Another story I think about is,yeah, like students are hungry
for the word, I think I've seenon several podcasts, several
books, that Gen Z is actuallywanting the faith.
(34:54):
They're zealous for the word,zealous for Christian community,
and I would say that's probablywhat we've seen this past year,
as, when we look at RUF as aministry man, students have been
hungry for Christian community.
They're on campus and they havecommunity in their classes or
in their majors, but they don'treally have a distinct Christian
(35:17):
community where they can bringtheir questions and their
struggles about faith, and thatis what RUF has become for these
students.
And so, looking ahead to thenext year, what I really, I
would say my biggest prayer ormy biggest ask from God, is for
him to break up the cliques inRUF and really just across the
(35:39):
campus ministries, because, man,like the beauty of the church,
is that you have all of thesepeople from different political
organizations, differentethnicities, different classes,
different educations, and you'rebringing them into one space
knit by the blood of Christ andthat's kind of what I want our
(35:59):
students in this next year atRUF to lean into.
You've got students here whowent to private school.
You've got students that grewup in the hood.
You've got students that grewup in a two-parent household and
they're the only child.
You've got students here thatare on full scholarship, and
then you got students that areworking two jobs to put
themselves through school.
(36:20):
I want my students, especiallymy student leaders, to lean into
loving all of the students thatare in our group Practically't
like practically and reasonably.
We can't love everybody oncampus in the way that we can
love somebody that's close to us, um, but as far as RUF is
(36:40):
concerned, I want our studentsreally just to to love one
another, to have conversationswith people that you don't know
in the ministry, cause I thinkthat starts the the wheel of
love turning um in our ministry.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah, while, while, while you're praying for our UF,
lift a few prayers up for ourlocal churches as well.
That they would, that theywould de-click and uh, and adopt
that same love posture, becauseI think it's something that we
all, we all need to embrace.
Yeah, yeah, and I was gonna saythat's, that's another thing.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Like there we often say you know you're not doing
RUF if you're not connectingstudents to the local church.
Yeah, so that's why I thinkit's all the more apparent,
apparent that our students learnto love one another, because
that prepares them for when yougraduate and you don't have
ministry.
Well now you need to transfereverything that you've learned.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And because the diversity expands, the diversity
expands.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Yes, yeah, the diversity expands the
experiences, the variety ofexperiences expands, and these
students, the local churchfamily with families in the
church and older men and womenwho have gone through life to be
with them as they're goingthrough their college.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Absolutely, instead of afterwards.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
You're absolutely right.
They need those relationshipswhile they're freshmen.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
While they're sophomores yes.
Hey, you know, brian, I've beenwanting to do this ever since
we started this podcast.
You ended by saying putting abow on it.
I think Jermaine has put a bowon this thing for us, and so
I've been wanting to say that,man, am I still your incredible
friend?
Because I said he put a bow onit.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
No, no, no, no.
He has definitely put a bow onit in many ways.
This no, no, no, no.
He has definitely put a bow onit in many ways.
This is how I want to wrap itup.
Jermaine, I got two things.
(38:49):
I would love for youopportunity for reconciliation.
From your perspective and yourvantage point, what's the
greatest challenge you're facedwith?
What's the greatest opportunitythat you see?
Speaker 4 (39:01):
They both could be the same.
Yeah, absolutely yeah, you know, I think that they really are
(39:23):
the same, nettie, and I mean Ihate to give a Sunday school
answer, but it really is.
The challenge to reconciliationis a sinful heart an
opportunity?
It's a challenge because, nomatter what program you do, no
matter what Bible study you takesomebody through, no matter
what experience you try to craftfor them, if their heart is
hard, they're not going to beable to receive the goodness and
(39:45):
the love of what's happening.
But it's an opportunity becauseman, the gospel, is just so
powerful, it's sotransformational that it takes
that heart of stone and gives ita heart of flesh, a heart
that's able to respond to thegoodness of God.
(40:05):
And I believe thatreconciliation, right as Paul
says, is part of God's heart.
Right, we are called to bringpeople from death to life by the
gospel, by the Holy Spirit.
And so I think that, becausethe problem, from my vantage
point, is the sinful,tribalistic, selfish rebellion
(40:27):
of the human heart, especiallyin our Gen Z, the opportunity is
also receiving the gospel andmeeting a Black Gen Z's love for
the gospel and love for church,love for God, meeting that with
sound gospel teaching and say,hey, this faith that is around
(40:50):
you, this church thing that yourparents have done, these songs
that you sing all the time.
They have real, eternal meaningfor the way that you relate to
the people around you and theway that you think about
cross-cultural relationships.
Let's have that conversation.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Jermaine, how can folks keep up with you, brother?
Speaker 4 (41:16):
How can you keep up with me?
You can follow me on Instagram.
You can follow me on FacebookJermaine Jr.
On Instagram Facebook JermaineVan Buren.
You can also follow RUF onInstagram RUFJSU.
You can also follow RUF onInstagram RUFJSU.
And we have a website as well.
Just Google RUF, jackson State,it'll take you to our website.
(41:38):
And then, yeah, if you want totalk, if you want to connect
with me, just reach out to Brian.
He has my contact info.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
My email is simple jermainevanburen at RUForg.
Excellent, excellent.
Jermaine, thank you so verymuch for your time.
Thank you so very much for theministry and your careful,
careful, careful care of thatministry and of the students at
Jackson State University.
Man, we need more people in thefaith like you, man, in the
(42:12):
trenches on our college campuses, and so we're grateful for you.
This has been an excellentpodcast with our friend Jermaine
and with my good friends Nettieand Austin.
Let me make a plug.
This is the first plug of theyear.
On September the 25th, at sixo'clock, we will be hosting our
Living Reconciled Celebrationthis year on the college campus
(42:35):
of Mississippi College, andersonHall.
We would love for you to goahead and plug that date in your
calendar.
Save the date.
We plan on having an incredibleevening with more details to
come, but we want you to goahead and plug that date on your
calendar right now.
September the 25th MississippiCollege Living Reconciled
Celebration 2025.
(42:56):
We'll be on a college campuswhere we can interact with more
people like Jermaine and collegestudents, like the wonderful
and beautiful students atJackson State University,
mississippi College and anyother college across the state,
and we want you to be there tocelebrate the oneness that we
have in Christ Jesus together.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
I got a challenge for Jermaine that he'll bring some
of those students to that event.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Amen.
Speaker 4 (43:22):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Amen, amen, amen.
It's been a great podcast.
Thank you so much, jermaine,and thanks to my brothers,
austin and Nettie.
On behalf of those two brothersand myself, we're signing off
saying God bless.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
God bless, god bless.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
God bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
please visit us online atmissionmississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.