July 2, 2025 • 52 mins
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What does real reconciliation look like across racial and economic lines? Pastor Wayne Hall shares his compelling journey from growing up as “the only white kid” in one of Meridian’s poorest neighborhoods to leading a diverse church at Jackson First. Wayne reflects on the early influence of an inclusive church, the painful shift of racially divided friendships in high school, and the calling that shaped his ministry. With bold honesty, he challenges listeners to examine whether their faith truly reflects Christ’s call to reconciliation. Rooted in empathy, Scripture, and lived experience, this episode offers a powerful vision of the Church as a place where everyone belongs.
📣 Join us for our annual Living Reconciled Celebration on September 25th at Mississippi College's Anderson Hall as we continue the conversation on what it means to see one another as Christ sees us.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled, episode 79.
(00:32):
I am your host, Brian Crawford,and I am with some special
friends Nettie Winters, AustinHoyle.
Gentlemen, how are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Man, I am great, but the last time I was called
special man, some guys in whitecoats with a scrap in their hand
was standing there.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
No, no, no, no, no.
You are a very dear friend, man, special friend, incredible
friend.
All the great adjectives forfriends that I could think of
you, you fit the bill and you,you as well.
Austin, every great adjectivethat I could think of as it
relates to friend, I think ofyou.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Well, I'm glad I'm in there somewhere.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And we have another really,really good friend with us and
before we introduce you to him,we want to give a quick shout
out to our sponsors and saythanks to Nissan, st Dominic's
Hospital, atmos Energy RegionsFoundation, mississippi College,
anderson United Methodist,grace Temple, mississippi State,
Real Christian Foundation,brown Missionary Baptist
(01:39):
Christian Life Church, ms DorisPowell, robert Ward and Winters.
Ms Doris Powell, robert Wardand Winters, thank you so much
for everything that you do.
It's because of you, because ofyou, we're able to do what we
do.
And today what we're doing iswe're having a conversation with
a friend of ours, pastor WayneHall.
He is the pastor of JacksonFirst.
He is a devoted husband, father, and Wayne is an incredible
(02:05):
friend.
Wayne is Nettie Winters' pastor, which requires much prayer and
fasting, I'm sure, just in andof itself.
So maybe we'll get intofiguring out what it means to be
Nettie Winters' pastor.
But, wayne, we couldn't be morehonored and privileged to have
you join us today brother.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
It's truly an honor on my side of the fence as well,
buddy.
I'm very privileged and thankyou for being a friend.
That sounds like a sitcom song,thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Shout out to the Gota girls.
Man Shout out to the Gota girlsyeah, absolutely.
Hey, wayne, why don't you startoff by telling us a little bit
about you, man?
Tell us a little bit about yourfamily.
Tell us a little bit about yourown story as it relates to how
you came to faith in Christ andhow you ended up in the vocation
that you're currently in as apastor of Jackson.
First Awesome.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Well.
Again, thank you guys, so muchfor what you do and this podcast
.
You know, thinking about mylife and everything that I've
been through and God's broughtme to you know I'm a husband of
the greatest wife that Godcreated for me, holly.
(03:23):
We've been married this, goinginto our 20th year of marriage.
I'm originally from Meridian,mississippi, about 87 miles east
of here.
I married a Pearl girl.
She's from Pearl Mississippi.
I grew up Meridian and been inthe Jackson Metro area now
(03:45):
pastoring for 17 years, goinginto our 18th year.
But I grew up in Meridian,mississippi.
I grew up in what they wouldsay that people like to label
the bad part of town, the partthat you don't go across the
tracks and visit very often.
I grew up right off of FifthStreet and what they call a red
(04:07):
line district.
Um, I uh was the only, uh, onlywhite kid in my neighborhood,
uh, only white family.
But uh, enjoyed living inMeridian.
I lived there.
Like I say, I've been here inthe jacks metro for going on 18
years.
But, um, you know, grew up in ayour typical, you know, hard,
(04:32):
hard working family home.
Dad was a I worked for bunnybread and which is now sunbeam
bread, and my mom was a florist,uh, dad was an alcoholic by
trade and he, you know.
It was just one of thosefamilies that you grew up and
you survived, you learned tosurvive, you learned the streets
(04:53):
, you learned how to make it andyou know, as my dad would call
(05:14):
us, many times in our lives ashustlers, we grew up to hustle.
I was probably 16, 15 years old,grew up in and out of church.
My family was part of Church ofGod.
For a while we were Assembly ofGod by association, but we just
kind of went to what was thelatest and greatest growing up.
But I remember as a kid, youknow, there was a Methodist
(05:35):
church right around the cornerfrom where we lived, at 512 41st
Avenue.
I could take you to the place.
Now the church, I believe, iscondemned now, but it was a
beautiful Methodist churchAustin.
It just had windows, just likein your location.
I mean, it was just likelooking at the same church again
(05:55):
.
And I remember that churchreally loved on us, loved on us
as kids and gave us a place anda platform.
And I remember a funny storyEvery Sunday when we would have
communion it was when they brokebread and actually passed the
cup and we thought it was greatthat our communion got to
continue because they gave uswhat was left and we got to go
(06:16):
home and eat a loaf of bread anddrink a half gallon of what we
thought was wine but was grapejuice and we just really felt
loved.
That really impressed on methat those kids never asked me
how much money I made, what myparents did.
They opened their door to us,me and my friends.
(06:42):
We'll never forget that.
You can talk to all of them tothis day.
What are you thankful for?
We were thankful for thatMethodist church that gave us a
place and so fast forward, I wasprobably 15, 16 years old.
I was going to a Baptist churchwith friends in school.
You go to church where thegirls are, not where God is, and
(07:02):
that's just kind of what wethought was the right thing to
do.
And, man, I just fell in lovewith music.
There was something about music, of course.
Growing up, my dad listened toa lot of soul music, a lot of
blues.
I felt a kindred spirit withthat music.
When I would hear the pianoplay and the organ play and the
(07:23):
drums, I was drawn to it.
God just began to deal with myheart.
I didn't really realize howbroken I was as a child, a son
of an alcoholic, tough life.
But as I got older and I gotinto music, I became a musician
myself.
And I got into music, I becamea musician myself.
(07:44):
You know, I love the drums andfound a love for worship music
and church music.
And that's how I really beganmy quote unquote introductory
relationship with the Lord.
And I remember one night I wasprobably I was 18.
I had, you know, I had theprivilege of loving high school
(08:08):
so much I went back to the 12thgrade again just because I liked
it and uh, and that was a jokethere, but that's okay, I uh, I
uh one night went to a revivalservice with a buddy of mine
from school and that we we had alittle band together, we
traveled and played musicwhenever we could and whatever
church would have us.
And and I remember I was in theservice and this evangelist was
(08:30):
there and when he said there'sa, there's a man here and you're
18, he said and you've tried tofigure out who you are in
Christ.
And he said I think tonight'sthe night you need to understand
who you are and who he is, andI was like, man, that's me, he's
talking to me.
But I was like how do you knowall that?
And I'm so green to the HolySpirit and not understanding the
(08:54):
conversation.
And so I kind of slept on itand went to a church several
weeks later, of course.
The church that I was going to,uh, where friends were, and and
I remember, that night I just Ifelt a drawing because I've got
to give my life to Jesus.
I got to be sold out to this.
I can't, I can't just and um,have the cake and eat it too.
(09:16):
You know, I've got to, I wantto commit my life to Jesus.
And I remember, in a stairwell,uh, the youth pastor.
His name was Jerry Hooks, hewas a fantastic drummer and he
took me under his wing.
I told him, I said, jerry, Ican't leave here without
committing my life to Jesus.
I said, because I've run fortoo long to try to chase my own
(09:36):
platform and I want to giveJesus my life.
He said, man, let's do it rightnow.
He led me to the Lord on thestairway, you know, uh, and then
you know that same evangelistthat was at that service many,
many months later, uh, I, I wasactually 19 at the time, getting
ready to go to college.
And um, he I went back and hesaid you know, there's a man
(10:00):
here, you're 19.
And I was like how does thisdude know how old I am?
And he was just calling it outfor what it was.
And he said you got to call Godon your life and you know it.
You need to surrender to theministry, to the life that God's
called you to, and follow himfor the rest of your days.
And I went up to him and I saidhis name was John.
I remember John Shriver was hisname.
(10:20):
I said John, it was me, I'm him.
He said I knew it was you andhe said but I just needed God to
talk to you and I surrenderedmy life to ministry that night
and surrendered to the call andnever looked back.
You know ministry has been sogood to my life and my family
and you know it's never beeneasy, because when you choose to
(10:43):
follow a path that again notthat everybody does it's been
difficult at times, wanted toquit at times, but I've learned
that to be in love with Jesusand not be in love with a
calling God called me.
I didn't call myself and that'sthe pursuit that I continue to
come after to this day.
(11:03):
Here, being almost 45 years old, I'm just choosing every day to
take up that cross and followhim.
I've said so many times in mylife even yesterday it was kind
of woe is me after you and Italked on the phone I was like
Lord, you could have calledsomebody else, man, you could
(11:25):
have called somebody else, man.
You know, you could have pickedsomebody else, and and and that
was the thing, was it was like,yeah, he could have, but he, he
chose to pick me.
You know, and and and.
I've just learned that Goddoesn't make mistakes.
Even when we feel like he does,god knows what he's doing.
And and and God took just apoor little white boy out of
Meridian off the Red LineDistrict, and he said I'm going
(11:51):
to make something of him and I'mgoing to give him a life that
he'll, if he'll, pursue me forthe rest of it.
You know I'm a guy that can betrusted, so been so grateful,
man.
You know I had to learn how tobe a godly husband.
I did had to learn that.
I'm honored that I had the dadthat I had.
But it's just.
You know, you learn things andyou need to unlearn some things.
And then I had to.
You know, I remember when ourfirst child was born we have
(12:16):
three beautiful children.
I remember standing in the roomand I'm terrified, you know.
I don't know how to be a dadand I told the Lord.
I said, god, you're going tohave to fix this or change it or
something.
I don't know what I'm doing.
As clear as day in my spirit,the Lord said I want you to be
everything to her that yourfather was not to you.
I took that as theresponsibility to say, okay, I'm
(12:37):
going to serve you, jesus, inmy kids' lives, in my wife's
life, as my friends in Louisianawould say, the rest is lanyard.
You know it's just extra, butit's been a joy.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
You know, wayne, when you were talking about standing
in that room and admitting tothe Lord that you didn't know
what you were doing, that youneeded him to do that, you know
that's really the way he wantsus to come to him in all
circumstances, all conditions,and life would be so much
clearer and brighter when we dothat, as it was for you in terms
of in that moment, even in themoment when it was so clear and
(13:15):
concise to you that the Lord hadcalled you, as the preacher
said.
So you know it's.
I just want to encourage you inthat.
I just want to encourage you inthat that's such a clear hand
of the Lord moving on you andhow we can do that without
making it so complicated as wegenerally do.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
But it's been a fun journey.
Live by the mantra enjoy I-N,space J-O-Y, enjoy the journey.
There's joy somewhere in thisthing and it's just choosing to
find it.
And so it's been fun and we'restill pushing forward, man.
And then I remember when my wifeand I got married.
(13:57):
We got married on April Fool'sDay, of course, so we'd always
remember our anniversary and westayed in Meridian for about a
year, year and a half.
She looked at me one day in ourlarge 486-square-foot apartment
and she said I'm ready to gohome.
I said well, I don't want youto leave this earth.
(14:18):
She said, no, I'm ready to goback to where I know is home.
Of course we got a phone callas we were serving as as
bivocational associate youthpastor worship leaders, if that
is a title, uh, at a localchurch, at Trinity assembly, um,
we had like six kids in ouryouth group and we were just
(14:40):
serving because, that's, we hada place.
And, uh, we got a phone callone day here in Jackson.
It was Pastor Bobby Q and hewas a youth pastor, associate
pastor here at Jackson First andhe was a dear friend and he
happened to be my wife's youthpastor when she was growing up
and he said hey, man, we'd loveto talk to you about coming to
Jackson.
And I said well, man, my wife'shome is in Pearl, so let's go
(15:04):
home.
He said well, man, my wife'shome is in Pearl, so let's go
home.
He said no, no, he said let'stalk.
And we prayed and at first wewere just like you know, we'll
just see what God wants.
You know, it's funny how we tryto dictate what God needs to do
when we want God to move in ourlife, but if he'll do it our
way, we were just like all right, God, if you do this, this,
this and this, we will considerit.
(15:24):
And God's like who are youagain?
So we eventually we just knewit was right in praying and
timing.
And God brought us here toJackson First and we, just we
said we're going to stayfaithful, we're going to serve
the local church and to whateverdegree.
And here we are, going into our18th year, we're still here, you
know, serve the local churchand to whatever degree.
(15:45):
And uh, and here we are, uh,going into our 18th year, we're
still here.
You know, we never thought we'dstill be here, but we're here
and we're grateful.
Um and uh, my wife got to gohome, so, uh, we never looked
back.
So it's been a, it's been a joyto serve the local church, uh,
which, in my opinion, it's justthe hope of any community is a
local church.
You know, of course, throughJesus himself, but yeah, man,
(16:11):
brother, that's incredible man,you said.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You said a lot that I could, that I could grab on to,
but there's one thing inparticular that I would love to
kind of unpack a little further,if you don't mind.
You mentioned being theminority growing up, the only
white kid in a predominantlyblack and brown neighborhood,
(16:36):
and you and I have hadconversations before in terms of
you describing how that hasshaped you, shaped your ministry
, shaped your passion and yourheart for the context that God
has uniquely assigned to you inJackson First, where you guys
are, could you talk a little bitabout that in terms of how God
(16:57):
has used and leveraged yourupbringing good, bad and
indifferent and the experiencesthat you've had to instilling
you a particular passion and aparticular capacity and ability
to minister to where you are andalso to deepen your passion to
(17:21):
see oneness in your communityand see people reached across,
uh, ethnic and cultural lines.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Yeah, um, you know, growing up where I, where I grew
up in Meridian, um, I mean justno, getting around it, we were,
we grew up in a poorneighborhood, you know we were,
we were the poor white family,um, and white family in the
district we grew up in.
I say it like it was the HungerGames, but at some degree it
(17:50):
was.
But the area we grew up in wasan old hosiery mill area where
they had a sock and hosiery mill, where your typical shotgun
house and hosiery mill, whereyour typical shotgun house, you
know, just working family, werethere.
And Meridian was at the time.
(18:17):
You know they had an old moneyside and they had just no money
side and we were in the no moneyside.
But I remember, you know Ireally, for the longest time,
just kind of like I hate to saythis because it's an absolute
false statement For a long timeI really didn't see the color.
You know what I'm saying and Isay that because it was just
(18:38):
normal life for us.
It was not like, oh, I don'tsee color, no, you see color,
colors all around you, but inthat degree it was like you know
, I'm white, they're not, we'reall in the same neighborhood
we're going to live around eachother, we better like each other
and get to know each other,because that's what we got mind
(19:00):
that grew up in thatneighborhood.
We all were like dreaming ofthe day we get out.
Like man, I can't wait to getout of here Like we're just, you
know, so doomed for the rest ofour life in this neighborhood.
But man, we loved it.
Everybody played sportstogether.
That was our thing.
We played sports and we playedmusic.
And in Meridian we had feederschools where everybody went.
(19:23):
There was two elementaryschools, there was two middle
schools, there was two juniorhigh schools and everybody fed
into the same high school.
So you really didn't see likeyou went to school, with who you
look like and the neighborhoodyou were from.
So we all went to.
I went to Oakland HeightsElementary School, went to
Carver Middle School, went toKate Griffin Junior High School
and then we all went to MeridianHigh School, carver Middle
(19:44):
School, went to Kate GriffinJunior High School and then we
all went to Meridian High School.
And so we really never saw.
I never saw the color aspectwhere we were quote unquote
different until I got into highschool, because that's when all
the rich kids and all the poorkids came together.
We would see each other onsports fields and different
games.
But so I began to notice youknow, something's a little
(20:10):
different here, that I didn'tsee growing up, something, and
it was like there was a, like anautomatic migration.
All the white people went tothe white people, the, the, the
black and brown people went tothe black and brown people and
everybody else who was left justhung out.
And I was part of the everybodywho's left because we were just
(20:30):
like man, what happened?
And and I remember friends ofmine who were, um, you know,
growing up, best friends, youknow, athletes together, playing
ball together.
You know there was a.
There was just this likemigration, like we, we migrated.
And then we'd see each other inthe ball fields, we'd see each
other in the locker rooms, butduring class, you know, you were
(20:52):
automatically in class together, but during life you just, you
just split off.
And so I began to notice, youknow, of course, by our
demographics and financialsituations, and blah, blah, blah
.
(21:14):
Then I remember our quarterback,for example, lebaron Hedgeman.
He's a pastor out of Meridian,an amazing man of God.
I love this man.
He has a powerful ministry.
I remember I played center, anamazing man of God.
I love this man, he has apowerful ministry.
And I remember I played centerand he was the quarterback, and
I remember he and I were talkingone day and I said, lebaron,
why, why do we not hang outanymore?
(21:36):
He said Wayne, this is just howit is, man.
I said I remember growing up wewere together all the time, you
know, we spent time together,we played together, we run
together, we run the roads, werode the school bus, I mean.
But we're in high school nowand it's like, well, we get
together now.
And it's like, well, we gettogether, we do what we got to
do.
And then we go back to ourcircles and I just really felt
(21:56):
there was something screwed upabout that, and I hate to use
that word, but it just reallywas like.
But I didn't know how toaddress it.
I just thought, well, if Idon't go with the flow, if I
don't, you know, stay in my lane, I'm going to catch heck for it
.
And but I remember neverfeeling comfortable with that,
like my wife always she, shefinds it hilarious that every
(22:18):
time we go back to Meridian shesaid you know more black people
than I've ever known in my life,wow.
And I said, well, honey, I saidthere they were always friends
and family.
Like this is just our life, youknow.
Life, you know.
(22:42):
And I remember thinking, if Ifeel this way as a white man,
how do my black and brownfriends feel every day of their
life?
And I only had to face it forlike a season my 10th grade,
11th grade, 12th grade and 12thgrade year.
I had to face it for a season,but LeBaron had to face it his
(23:02):
whole life and I think, finally,for me, what really opened my
eyes to this is like it's wrong.
But what's wrong with it?
You know, we feel like you know, do we not belong in the same
room?
Do we not belong in the samesocial class?
(23:23):
Or is was I any less because Igrew up in a poor neighborhood?
You know?
No, I was.
I'm human and and, and it'sjust steered my heart to
understand where do people comefrom?
Like you know, I've just foundthat people can't help the hand
that they were dealt, but youcan help how you play the game,
(23:45):
you know, and I remember.
For me, I decided, I said, youknow, if I ever get a chance to
be a blessing to my brother.
I'm going to Financially,emotionally, spiritually, if I
ever get a chance.
I never want to make peoplefeel any less because I knew
(24:06):
what it felt like to be the poorwhite kid that was standing in
the middle of a segregated groupof whites and black and brown
kids that said, you know, pick aside.
When I didn't want to pick aside, I'm like this is our side,
you know, and it and it would.
Oh, you're so frustratedbecause I'm like, can y'all see
(24:32):
how wrong this is?
And I'm the one that's wrongbecause I want to see it made
right.
I'm the one with a skewed viewbecause it's like, hey, you're
not part of that group anymore.
You've got to go over therewhere your folks are at.
Well, who are my folks?
And I remember still to thisday.
(24:52):
I drive through my hometown,meridian, and it's just as
segregated today as it was theday I left.
There's still the old moneyside, the no money side and the
side you need to stay out of.
So it drove me to the fact thatI have this sign in my office
(25:12):
and I want to read it to you.
It says this always pray tohave eyes that see the best in
people, a heart that forgivesthe worst, a mind that forgets
the bad, and a soul that neverloses faith and good.
And I remember I said God, if Icould ever live that way and
(25:36):
help somebody understand thatthey have a place at a table
yeah, none of us belong at,because none of us are righteous
, not one.
But if I can help somebody stayat a table, like I'll say this
like Nettie Winters has helpedme stay at a table that I just
felt like I couldn't stay at atable, I'll say this like Nettie
(25:57):
Winters has helped me stay at atable that I just felt like I
couldn't stay at, but he said no, you can stay at this table and
listen and learn.
And I think that's what shoulddrive us, because you've heard
me say this a lot of times,brian there's a reality to on
earth, as it will be in heaven,and a lot of people are going to
be shocked when they see thatthat's true, that there's not a
(26:19):
lot of table numbers in heaven.
I believe that there's going tobe one massively large table,
the wedding feast of our Lordand Savior, who we're there for.
To answer your question, it'sjust driven me to understand
that if I felt it in a season, Ihave friends that have felt it
(26:40):
for a lifetime.
And how do I live in such a waythat helps change that
narrative around, to say, no,you're welcome at this table,
and so I know I went a long wayaround to answer your question.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
No, no, I appreciate the journey, brother.
I appreciate you taking us onthe journey.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
That's, you know, that's just been the driving
force behind my heart, even hereat Jackson First.
And we've got a long way to go,I'll say it, we've got a long
way to go.
A long way to go, I'll say it,you got a long way to go.
But it's helping our family offaith and those that are not
involved in the local church tounderstand that there's a place,
you know, and making room forthose who don't look like us and
(27:27):
talk like us, even, you know,spend like us, to make a place
to say no, you're welcome,because you know, if Jesus gave
me what I was worth, he couldhave turned me away a long time
ago.
But he said, no, you're welcomeand I can do something with
(27:51):
that kid.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yeah, brother, that's man.
That's really deep.
I really love the way youapproach this and the way you're
telling this story, becausewhat you just said it's not just
theory.
This is like real life live.
This is discipleship, this isreconciliation as it's described
on the ground level asking if Ican just help somebody stay at
(28:14):
the table.
I absolutely love thatsentiment.
There's a whole theology, Ithink, in just that one little
line that you're expressing,because staying at the table is
really where the real workhappens, getting into calling,
being in love with our Savior,not just in the moments when
it's easy or when everybodyhappens to agree with one
(28:37):
another or when the room feelscomfortable, because you're
obviously showing places in yourlife where the room has not
been comfortable, when somethingin you says you know I don't
belong here, or I've heard thistoo many times, or I don't think
I can do this again.
And you're right.
There are a lot of peoplewho've only ever felt that
(28:59):
dislocation, that discomfort,and then there are others who've
just been asked to swallow thatfeeling for an absolute
lifetime.
They didn't get to opt out ofany of that.
So for those of us who get theprivilege of walking in and out
of discomfort.
There's a responsibility, Ithink, to stay, to listen, to
(29:22):
learn to shoulder some of whatwe've been carrying probably for
decades.
That's not just social wisdom.
That cuts to the very, veryroot of what the gospel means as
well.
I love how you bring all ofthis way back to the kingdom
focus, because when you've saidthere's not a lot of table
numbers in heaven, I imagine agiant table where it was a big
(29:48):
circle but people were able tosit on both sides so they could
have good conversations justwithin a really large diet table
.
I think that'll preach.
I think that's good to be said.
I think you just preached it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So let me ask you this, becauseI'm actually getting a real
good question as we summarizethis Someone who stayed at the
(30:10):
table when it got hard, someonewho's helped others stay.
What do you think it means?
To be able to lead other people, other people, into the same
sort of resilience that the Lordhas been able to cultivate in
you for your life?
Speaker 4 (30:30):
Well, you know, I think it was at our last
Mississippi prayer breakfastthat we had several weeks ago.
I just believe it is as simpleas when you reconcile a man's
heart, you reconcile a man'snature.
You know, when God trulychanges a man's heart, he can't
(30:55):
help but change your perspective.
And this may sound veryoffensive and I don't mean it to
be, but I have to question alot of people that carry the
label as Christians, like whereis your relationship with Christ
if you so act, the way that youact towards your brother, and
(31:18):
has your heart truly beenchanged?
Because the fruit that I'mseeing ain't adding up.
And I only say that because Ihad to go through a heart change
to understand and even thebattle of like.
Well, maybe I do need to stay atthe white table and just stay
in my lane.
Well, last time I checked, whena car leaves their lane, it
(31:41):
causes chaos on the other lanesbecause they're like they're
going to hit us and it couldcause a pileup, a wreck, the
news and everything.
But I've just had to learn thatsometimes God may be working in
us to get us out of our lanesso that we can mess up some
things, and I know that's kindof contradictory to the gospel,
(32:04):
but I mean, jesus wasn't as allpretty and sanctified as we.
I mean he messed some stuff upfor the world and I think to
answer your question is like manhas God changed your heart?
You know, has there been a trueheart change?
And I understand it's a process.
We're disciples.
We've not arrived yet.
I don't have the gospel.
You know the global gospeldocument on my wall to say I've
(32:27):
officially become a certifiedChristian.
You know God's still working onme and I think, as he's working
in me, we're an unfinished work.
He's continuing to do that andI think, being open to the fact
that we're fallen, that we'resinful, I tell our people all
(32:48):
the time we can't expect a lostworld to act out.
They just won't.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
You know, wayne, as you were describing getting in
and out of the lane, you knowwhen you're in the wrong lane
and everybody's in the wronglane, at some point there's
going to be a catastrophe thatcan't be overcome, and so I find
that standing at the wrongtable is in the wrong lane.
If you stand at the white tableor the black table, god wants
(33:15):
you out of that lane, eventhough in the wrong lane, if you
stand at the white table, theblack table, god wants you out
of that lane, even though in theshort term it might cause a
little chaos in terms of how youdirect traffic at that moment.
But you know our goal.
I love the way you described it, what you've learned and the
struggle you had.
But you know, one of the thingsthat I picked up from what
you're telling us and you mayunfold this a little bit more is
(33:35):
that either intentionallyoreous, as we call it, or we see
it.
Our goal is to not criticize,condemn or do otherwise, but to
(34:02):
lead them in the direction Godwould have us lead them, and
many times it challenges us tobe in the right lane to do that,
and sometimes it feels I knowit.
For me, sometimes I feel likeI'm the only one in the lane and
I have to be in the wrong lanebecause I'm the only one in it,
right?
Speaker 1 (34:20):
I mean formation is, you know, it's sanctification is
not absent of disruption, right?
I mean formation and forgingand shaping that requires things
that are out of shape to be tobe molded, and there's some
pushing and prodding and andsome bending in order to get
(34:41):
them in the shape that they'resupposed to be.
And so you know, to your point,to your point, wayne, we
oftentimes think that you knowthat that Christ to be in Christ
means you know that we're, thatwe're absent of some disruption
.
But it's the exact opposite Tobe in Christ guarantees there's
(35:03):
going to be some disruptionbecause we're out of sorts,
we're out of shape, we have tobe molded, we have to be placed
and formed into what he desiresfor us to be, not just
individually but collectively.
And so disruption is a part ofthat.
It has to happen and discomforthas to happen.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
You know, you know, brian, as we talk about that,
I'm thinking about that the onelane between Vicksburg and
Jackson.
You know a lot of people inBovine and Elkwood saying where
are these people coming from?
You know they're leaving I-20to take an alternate route to
get to where they're going,because you know I-20 has been
working on at some point somedayand I hope it's soon that
(35:49):
they'll finish that work andI-20 will be so much better for
travel back back and forth.
I think that's the way thekingdom of God is that we change
our circumstances In Jerusalem.
When the apostles was goingthrough Jerusalem, the naysayers
accused them of turning thecity upside down, but what they
(36:12):
actually were doing was turningit right side up.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
What challenges do you see thatthe church is faced with?
Of course, we talked aboutdisruption and that
unwillingness to beuncomfortable and to face that
discomfort.
Are there some other overtchallenges that you're seeing in
our communities that that areposing, posing obstacles to to
the work of reconciliation andunity?
Speaker 4 (36:44):
Yeah, just again you invited me on, so I get to tell
you my opinion, that's right,that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Man, you got the mic, man Use it then that's right.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
That's right, that's right.
Man, you got the mic, man, useit.
Well, I just think we deal andI'm seeing this a lot with the
immigration stuff.
We've begun to pick and choosewho we think is welcome at the
table, and I think that's a verydangerous position to be in.
And I understand the properlines and I understand all that,
(37:18):
but I'm living in a position inmy life where there's always
another side to the story, youknow, and for me and my house,
like my family, we always try toput ourselves in the other
person's position.
You know, why do they feel thisway?
(37:39):
Why are they aggravated?
Why are they trying to bettertheir life and their family?
And I think that's becoming achallenge, because I think the
local church is figuring outthat we missed it somehow,
because I think the local churchis figuring out that we missed
it somehow, like we gave up afight that was rightfully ours
(38:00):
in the first place and we gaveit to the government.
When the scripture that I readsays true religion is taking
care of the orphans and thewidows, you know we'll say well,
they're not necessarily widows.
Well, to me, when they've losttheir earthly good, you know
we'll say well, they're notnecessarily widows.
Well, to me, when they've losttheir earthly good, you know,
when they've lost their earthlyvalue according to man's
(38:22):
standard, they are widowsbecause they've lost something
of worth that people say, well,they don't belong here or you
don't belong in thisneighborhood.
I was in a conversation justlast night over a neighborhood
that's being developed close towhere I live and a friend of
mine said well, I've seen a lotmore African-American families
(38:45):
than I've ever seen before.
He said, and it's wonderful tosee.
But, man, I wonder why it tookso long.
And I said, I know why it tookso long Because they never
thought they were welcome in awhite neighborhood.
I said, you know, and the onething about it is who are we to
say who's welcome and who's not?
(39:06):
What if they told us, hey,you're not welcome because
you're white, you're not welcomebecause you're a Christian,
you're not welcome becauseyou're a Christian.
You know, and I think we as alocal church have to decide, you
know, what fight are we goingto stay in?
And I think it's one that wemust stay in to say, hey, we're
fighting for equal rights here,you know, we're fighting for,
you know, people that arewelcome.
(39:29):
And to me.
I've had to even wonder.
You know, dr King said you knowthe 11 o'clock hour is still the
most segregated hour on Sunday.
You know, and I don't mean tomisquote that, but I think you
know we've allowed it to comeover into the church.
You know we said well, you know, we're going to go to our
churches and we're going to haveservice and all this stuff,
(39:52):
blah, blah, blah.
So anyway, I don't mean to getoff the rap trail, but the main
thing is to me, I feel ourbiggest challenge right now is,
you know, continuing to helppeople understand their worth in
Christ and point them towardsthat and help them develop that
(40:13):
discipleship.
You know sanctification,holiness, you know these things
that we don't like to talk aboutin church much.
You know to the point of like.
You know, helping peopleunderstand God has a plan for
your life and it's a good one.
And you may have to go throughvalleys and I don't understand
those.
I don't understand all of hisways, why God does things a
certain way.
But I know this.
You know I want to be part ofthe church that loves people and
(40:34):
that points them to the Christthat died for them.
We've got to stay the course,in that it's going to be
difficult.
It's going to be hard becausethere's a lot of believers that
don't feel that way.
You know the ones that, theso-called crazy ones, the ones
that are the wild-haired ones,the ones that don't look like us
, the ones that don't talk likeus.
(40:55):
They're just as welcome as weare.
And anyway, I'm going on longrabbit trails, but I just think
we've got to stay the course andstay in the fight of let's be
the church and we're going to bethe church to all men that we
might win some, you know.
So.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah, amen, amen, yeah, wayne, wayne, micah, so
yeah, amen, amen, yeah, way, way, micah, micah come, stands out
to me when the lord you knowwhat is the lord expect of us,
right, uh, what does the lordcall us to do in terms of you
know, uh, doing, doing justice,uh, and, and, and, and, mercy,
(41:32):
and, uh, you know.
But?
But also also James 1 standsout to me where he talks about
don't just be a hero of the word, but be a doer of the word.
And you mentioned what is truereligion is right in that same
passage.
There's three things thatreally God calls of us as it
relates to what true religion is.
One is a controlling of ourtongue, and that's a called a
(41:55):
self-control as it relates toour relationships and how we
engage relationally.
But then number two is how weengage with the least of these,
or those that have beenneglected.
So it's not just simply widowsand orphans, but it's those that
have been neglected.
I think is the higher truth thatJames is calling us to, and
then the abstaining from theimpurity of the world, and so
(42:17):
it's like what James is sayingis that action, what it means to
do.
The word is how we engage inrelationships in terms of what
we do, in terms of controllingourselves to engage well with
one another, what we do to lookat those that have been
neglected and making sure thatwe give the attention we turn
(42:39):
our gaze to the people thateveryone has turned their gaze
away from, and then also how weare living as light in the midst
of dark space.
Right, and that's what it meansto do the word.
(43:07):
And so, to your point, doingthe word is actually how we
engage with these very people,that are you engaging them and
how are you sharing the love ofJesus with them?
And so that's very much, Ithink, at the forefront of the
church's challenges in the 21stcentury, certainly in the West.
For us in America in particular.
What's bringing you hope,brother?
Speaker 4 (43:32):
Man, I'll say this, and I don't say this much and I
should say it more man, onSunday morning, when I look in a
room that is so mixed of youknow, we always like percentages
(43:52):
and all this stuff Like, well,how much of this?
No, we're just like man does itlook like heaven?
And when I look at ourcongregation, I'm seeing that
more and more it looks likeheaven.
And it's so exciting becauseit's like that took 17 years to
finally see a turn, a justslight turn, to finally see a
(44:17):
turn, a just slight turn.
And I'm so thankful for theones that, like Pastor Nettie,
and the ones who stayed at thetable and stayed the course to
say let's let this work, and mybrother, dan Hall, and those men
that have tried tirelessly overand over to have our
(44:37):
congregation like heaven and thecongregation of the church as a
whole, not just Jackson First.
But that gives me hope becauseI think people are realizing
that we really do need Jesus.
Man, and that's where it starts.
You give a man Jesus and that'swhere it starts.
You give a man Jesus and he'llchange his life.
You know, and that's what givesme hope.
(45:00):
And here in this community, youknow, I finally realized that.
You know, if one gets it,that's all that matters.
You know, yeah, it's nice tohave a lot of people, a lot of
congregants, a lot of a full,you know parking lot.
I mean those things are great.
(45:21):
I wouldn't I'd be lying to saythey're not, they're wonderful.
But at the end of the day it'slike Lord if one gets it.
And I, and I think the greatesthope I have is and I think
you'll understand, all of uswill understand this, because
we're parents and grandparents,and I see it in my home, I see
(45:45):
it in my kids.
My kids are learning to seepeople how God sees them.
My kids are understanding thepower of prayer for all mankind,
you know, in all of God'screation.
And to me that's what gives mehope.
I see hope in these Gen Alphas,that man, they just want Jesus.
(46:08):
You know.
I think that that's why so manyhad questions about, and
they're questioning, all thesemoves of God and all these
campuses and all this stuff.
Well, they're questioning itbecause it doesn't look like
what they think it should looklike when there is an honest,
unadulterated pursuit of theKing, above all kings, from a
(46:31):
generation that is so haunted byanxiety and plagued with
unbelievable media, who's rightand who's wrong, but I'm seeing
a generation turn around to saygive me Jesus, like that song
that I told you about in themorning when I rise give me.
(46:53):
Jesus, you know, and I think of,like that's hope.
You know, we're so quick to saywell, man, we're losing a
generation.
But what about the generationthat's being saved?
What about the ones that arestaying at those tables and
saying, hey, we're not going toleave here until we see God move
(47:13):
?
You know, tarrying a little bitlonger.
You know, I remember my dad.
I shared this Sunday.
He used to sing a song byReverend Charles Johnson, a dear
friend of ours I can't evenwalk without you holding my hand
.
And I think we're seeing thatnow.
It's like people saying unlessJesus does it, we can't.
(47:34):
And now it's like people saying, unless Jesus does it, we can't
.
And that's what's given me hopeto stay and keep coming back.
Because, man, it's people thatare getting it.
Dads are being dads again,they're being husbands again,
Families are fighting for faith,and so, anyway, that's just
what's giving me hope, man.
(47:54):
It's such a giddy hope thatit's like thank you, Lord, Not
all hope is lost.
You're still on your throne andworthy to be praised.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Yeah brother, yeah brother, your hope was fueling
my hope, and so we're grateful,grateful for you, man, grateful
for you, brother.
We are so thankful for yourwork at Jackson First, thankful
for your commitment, yoursteadfastness to the greater
Jackson area and to thecommunities that you serve.
(48:29):
We are grateful that somebodycan pastor Nettie Winters.
Incredibly grateful, incrediblygrateful for that.
Amen.
Oh my goodness.
For those of you who arelistening, if you would like to
hear more of this podcast, feelfree to go out, subscribe to
(48:50):
Living Reconciled.
You can find it on any podcastapp.
Search Living ReconciledMission, mississippi.
It on any podcast app.
Search Living ReconciledMission, mississippi.
Download it like, subscribe,share with friends and family.
We would love for you to getthe word out, even leave a
review, a positive review.
Let us know how LivingReconciled has been a blessing
to you, as you've been listeningto this podcast and we always
(49:13):
have great guests like Wayne,pastor Wayne and others.
We would love for you to tunein to what God is speaking
through these incredible,incredible men and women that we
have on this podcast.
And then, lastly, we want topoint to Pastor Wayne and
Jackson first, as well as all ofyou who are listening to
(49:34):
September the 25th, atMississippi College, anderson
Hall, we are hosting our annualLiving Reconciled celebration,
starting at 6 pm.
Please go ahead and pencil itor pen in that date and more
details will be forthcoming.
But you can visit our Web siteto get some preliminary details
and more details about ticketsales and all of that will be
(49:56):
forthcoming.
We're looking forward to thisevent.
It has two aims and twopurposes.
Number one is to allow peopleto see the work of Mission
Mississippi, but number two isto allow people to see one
another.
We are living in a day and timewhere it is becoming more and
more difficult for us to see oneanother spiritually,
emotionally, even at times,physically.
(50:17):
We're looking past one anotherand it's driving so much of our
division.
And so, on September the 25th,we are dedicating some time to
see one another, and so we areincredibly excited about that
evening.
We want to invite you to be apart of it.
September the 25th, andersonHall, mississippi College, at 6
pm.
It's been a great podcast, agreat episode.
(50:39):
Pastor Wayne, we are incrediblygrateful for what God is doing
in you and Jackson.
First, and on behalf of my goodfriends, incredible friends,
special friends, austin Hoyle,nettie, winters this is Brian
Crawford signing off saying Godbless, god bless, god bless.
This is Brian Crawford signingoff saying God bless, god bless,
god bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
(51:08):
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
please visit us online atMissionMississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening, orcall us at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on this episode of Living
Reconciled, episode 79.
(00:32):
I am your host, Brian Crawford,and I am with some special
friends Nettie Winters, AustinHoyle.
Gentlemen, how are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Man, I am great, but the last time I was called
special man, some guys in whitecoats with a scrap in their hand
was standing there.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
No, no, no, no, no.
You are a very dear friend, man, special friend, incredible
friend.
All the great adjectives forfriends that I could think of
you, you fit the bill and you,you as well.
Austin, every great adjectivethat I could think of as it
relates to friend, I think ofyou.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Well, I'm glad I'm in there somewhere.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And we have another really,really good friend with us and
before we introduce you to him,we want to give a quick shout
out to our sponsors and saythanks to Nissan, st Dominic's
Hospital, atmos Energy RegionsFoundation, mississippi College,
anderson United Methodist,grace Temple, mississippi State,
Real Christian Foundation,brown Missionary Baptist
(01:39):
Christian Life Church, ms DorisPowell, robert Ward and Winters.
Ms Doris Powell, robert Wardand Winters, thank you so much
for everything that you do.
It's because of you, because ofyou, we're able to do what we
do.
And today what we're doing iswe're having a conversation with
a friend of ours, pastor WayneHall.
He is the pastor of JacksonFirst.
He is a devoted husband, father, and Wayne is an incredible
(02:05):
friend.
Wayne is Nettie Winters' pastor, which requires much prayer and
fasting, I'm sure, just in andof itself.
So maybe we'll get intofiguring out what it means to be
Nettie Winters' pastor.
But, wayne, we couldn't be morehonored and privileged to have
you join us today brother.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
It's truly an honor on my side of the fence as well,
buddy.
I'm very privileged and thankyou for being a friend.
That sounds like a sitcom song,thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Shout out to the Gota girls.
Man Shout out to the Gota girlsyeah, absolutely.
Hey, wayne, why don't you startoff by telling us a little bit
about you, man?
Tell us a little bit about yourfamily.
Tell us a little bit about yourown story as it relates to how
you came to faith in Christ andhow you ended up in the vocation
that you're currently in as apastor of Jackson.
First Awesome.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Well.
Again, thank you guys, so muchfor what you do and this podcast
.
You know, thinking about mylife and everything that I've
been through and God's broughtme to you know I'm a husband of
the greatest wife that Godcreated for me, holly.
(03:23):
We've been married this, goinginto our 20th year of marriage.
I'm originally from Meridian,mississippi, about 87 miles east
of here.
I married a Pearl girl.
She's from Pearl Mississippi.
I grew up Meridian and been inthe Jackson Metro area now
(03:45):
pastoring for 17 years, goinginto our 18th year.
But I grew up in Meridian,mississippi.
I grew up in what they wouldsay that people like to label
the bad part of town, the partthat you don't go across the
tracks and visit very often.
I grew up right off of FifthStreet and what they call a red
(04:07):
line district.
Um, I uh was the only, uh, onlywhite kid in my neighborhood,
uh, only white family.
But uh, enjoyed living inMeridian.
I lived there.
Like I say, I've been here inthe jacks metro for going on 18
years.
But, um, you know, grew up in ayour typical, you know, hard,
(04:32):
hard working family home.
Dad was a I worked for bunnybread and which is now sunbeam
bread, and my mom was a florist,uh, dad was an alcoholic by
trade and he, you know.
It was just one of thosefamilies that you grew up and
you survived, you learned tosurvive, you learned the streets
(04:53):
, you learned how to make it andyou know, as my dad would call
(05:14):
us, many times in our lives ashustlers, we grew up to hustle.
I was probably 16, 15 years old,grew up in and out of church.
My family was part of Church ofGod.
For a while we were Assembly ofGod by association, but we just
kind of went to what was thelatest and greatest growing up.
But I remember as a kid, youknow, there was a Methodist
(05:35):
church right around the cornerfrom where we lived, at 512 41st
Avenue.
I could take you to the place.
Now the church, I believe, iscondemned now, but it was a
beautiful Methodist churchAustin.
It just had windows, just likein your location.
I mean, it was just likelooking at the same church again
(05:55):
.
And I remember that churchreally loved on us, loved on us
as kids and gave us a place anda platform.
And I remember a funny storyEvery Sunday when we would have
communion it was when they brokebread and actually passed the
cup and we thought it was greatthat our communion got to
continue because they gave uswhat was left and we got to go
(06:16):
home and eat a loaf of bread anddrink a half gallon of what we
thought was wine but was grapejuice and we just really felt
loved.
That really impressed on methat those kids never asked me
how much money I made, what myparents did.
They opened their door to us,me and my friends.
(06:42):
We'll never forget that.
You can talk to all of them tothis day.
What are you thankful for?
We were thankful for thatMethodist church that gave us a
place and so fast forward, I wasprobably 15, 16 years old.
I was going to a Baptist churchwith friends in school.
You go to church where thegirls are, not where God is, and
(07:02):
that's just kind of what wethought was the right thing to
do.
And, man, I just fell in lovewith music.
There was something about music, of course.
Growing up, my dad listened toa lot of soul music, a lot of
blues.
I felt a kindred spirit withthat music.
When I would hear the pianoplay and the organ play and the
(07:23):
drums, I was drawn to it.
God just began to deal with myheart.
I didn't really realize howbroken I was as a child, a son
of an alcoholic, tough life.
But as I got older and I gotinto music, I became a musician
myself.
And I got into music, I becamea musician myself.
(07:44):
You know, I love the drums andfound a love for worship music
and church music.
And that's how I really beganmy quote unquote introductory
relationship with the Lord.
And I remember one night I wasprobably I was 18.
I had, you know, I had theprivilege of loving high school
(08:08):
so much I went back to the 12thgrade again just because I liked
it and uh, and that was a jokethere, but that's okay, I uh, I
uh one night went to a revivalservice with a buddy of mine
from school and that we we had alittle band together, we
traveled and played musicwhenever we could and whatever
church would have us.
And and I remember I was in theservice and this evangelist was
(08:30):
there and when he said there'sa, there's a man here and you're
18, he said and you've tried tofigure out who you are in
Christ.
And he said I think tonight'sthe night you need to understand
who you are and who he is, andI was like, man, that's me, he's
talking to me.
But I was like how do you knowall that?
And I'm so green to the HolySpirit and not understanding the
(08:54):
conversation.
And so I kind of slept on itand went to a church several
weeks later, of course.
The church that I was going to,uh, where friends were, and and
I remember, that night I just Ifelt a drawing because I've got
to give my life to Jesus.
I got to be sold out to this.
I can't, I can't just and um,have the cake and eat it too.
(09:16):
You know, I've got to, I wantto commit my life to Jesus.
And I remember, in a stairwell,uh, the youth pastor.
His name was Jerry Hooks, hewas a fantastic drummer and he
took me under his wing.
I told him, I said, jerry, Ican't leave here without
committing my life to Jesus.
I said, because I've run fortoo long to try to chase my own
(09:36):
platform and I want to giveJesus my life.
He said, man, let's do it rightnow.
He led me to the Lord on thestairway, you know, uh, and then
you know that same evangelistthat was at that service many,
many months later, uh, I, I wasactually 19 at the time, getting
ready to go to college.
And um, he I went back and hesaid you know, there's a man
(10:00):
here, you're 19.
And I was like how does thisdude know how old I am?
And he was just calling it outfor what it was.
And he said you got to call Godon your life and you know it.
You need to surrender to theministry, to the life that God's
called you to, and follow himfor the rest of your days.
And I went up to him and I saidhis name was John.
I remember John Shriver was hisname.
(10:20):
I said John, it was me, I'm him.
He said I knew it was you andhe said but I just needed God to
talk to you and I surrenderedmy life to ministry that night
and surrendered to the call andnever looked back.
You know ministry has been sogood to my life and my family
and you know it's never beeneasy, because when you choose to
(10:43):
follow a path that again notthat everybody does it's been
difficult at times, wanted toquit at times, but I've learned
that to be in love with Jesusand not be in love with a
calling God called me.
I didn't call myself and that'sthe pursuit that I continue to
come after to this day.
(11:03):
Here, being almost 45 years old, I'm just choosing every day to
take up that cross and followhim.
I've said so many times in mylife even yesterday it was kind
of woe is me after you and Italked on the phone I was like
Lord, you could have calledsomebody else, man, you could
(11:25):
have called somebody else, man.
You know, you could have pickedsomebody else, and and and that
was the thing, was it was like,yeah, he could have, but he, he
chose to pick me.
You know, and and and.
I've just learned that Goddoesn't make mistakes.
Even when we feel like he does,god knows what he's doing.
And and and God took just apoor little white boy out of
Meridian off the Red LineDistrict, and he said I'm going
(11:51):
to make something of him and I'mgoing to give him a life that
he'll, if he'll, pursue me forthe rest of it.
You know I'm a guy that can betrusted, so been so grateful,
man.
You know I had to learn how tobe a godly husband.
I did had to learn that.
I'm honored that I had the dadthat I had.
But it's just.
You know, you learn things andyou need to unlearn some things.
And then I had to.
You know, I remember when ourfirst child was born we have
(12:16):
three beautiful children.
I remember standing in the roomand I'm terrified, you know.
I don't know how to be a dadand I told the Lord.
I said, god, you're going tohave to fix this or change it or
something.
I don't know what I'm doing.
As clear as day in my spirit,the Lord said I want you to be
everything to her that yourfather was not to you.
I took that as theresponsibility to say, okay, I'm
(12:37):
going to serve you, jesus, inmy kids' lives, in my wife's
life, as my friends in Louisianawould say, the rest is lanyard.
You know it's just extra, butit's been a joy.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
You know, wayne, when you were talking about standing
in that room and admitting tothe Lord that you didn't know
what you were doing, that youneeded him to do that, you know
that's really the way he wantsus to come to him in all
circumstances, all conditions,and life would be so much
clearer and brighter when we dothat, as it was for you in terms
of in that moment, even in themoment when it was so clear and
(13:15):
concise to you that the Lord hadcalled you, as the preacher
said.
So you know it's.
I just want to encourage you inthat.
I just want to encourage you inthat that's such a clear hand
of the Lord moving on you andhow we can do that without
making it so complicated as wegenerally do.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
But it's been a fun journey.
Live by the mantra enjoy I-N,space J-O-Y, enjoy the journey.
There's joy somewhere in thisthing and it's just choosing to
find it.
And so it's been fun and we'restill pushing forward, man.
And then I remember when my wifeand I got married.
(13:57):
We got married on April Fool'sDay, of course, so we'd always
remember our anniversary and westayed in Meridian for about a
year, year and a half.
She looked at me one day in ourlarge 486-square-foot apartment
and she said I'm ready to gohome.
I said well, I don't want youto leave this earth.
(14:18):
She said, no, I'm ready to goback to where I know is home.
Of course we got a phone callas we were serving as as
bivocational associate youthpastor worship leaders, if that
is a title, uh, at a localchurch, at Trinity assembly, um,
we had like six kids in ouryouth group and we were just
(14:40):
serving because, that's, we hada place.
And, uh, we got a phone callone day here in Jackson.
It was Pastor Bobby Q and hewas a youth pastor, associate
pastor here at Jackson First andhe was a dear friend and he
happened to be my wife's youthpastor when she was growing up
and he said hey, man, we'd loveto talk to you about coming to
Jackson.
And I said well, man, my wife'shome is in Pearl, so let's go
(15:04):
home.
He said well, man, my wife'shome is in Pearl, so let's go
home.
He said no, no, he said let'stalk.
And we prayed and at first wewere just like you know, we'll
just see what God wants.
You know, it's funny how we tryto dictate what God needs to do
when we want God to move in ourlife, but if he'll do it our
way, we were just like all right, God, if you do this, this,
this and this, we will considerit.
(15:24):
And God's like who are youagain?
So we eventually we just knewit was right in praying and
timing.
And God brought us here toJackson First and we, just we
said we're going to stayfaithful, we're going to serve
the local church and to whateverdegree.
And here we are, going into our18th year, we're still here, you
know, serve the local churchand to whatever degree.
(15:45):
And uh, and here we are, uh,going into our 18th year, we're
still here.
You know, we never thought we'dstill be here, but we're here
and we're grateful.
Um and uh, my wife got to gohome, so, uh, we never looked
back.
So it's been a, it's been a joyto serve the local church, uh,
which, in my opinion, it's justthe hope of any community is a
local church.
You know, of course, throughJesus himself, but yeah, man,
(16:11):
brother, that's incredible man,you said.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You said a lot that I could, that I could grab on to,
but there's one thing inparticular that I would love to
kind of unpack a little further,if you don't mind.
You mentioned being theminority growing up, the only
white kid in a predominantlyblack and brown neighborhood,
(16:36):
and you and I have hadconversations before in terms of
you describing how that hasshaped you, shaped your ministry
, shaped your passion and yourheart for the context that God
has uniquely assigned to you inJackson First, where you guys
are, could you talk a little bitabout that in terms of how God
(16:57):
has used and leveraged yourupbringing good, bad and
indifferent and the experiencesthat you've had to instilling
you a particular passion and aparticular capacity and ability
to minister to where you are andalso to deepen your passion to
(17:21):
see oneness in your communityand see people reached across,
uh, ethnic and cultural lines.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Yeah, um, you know, growing up where I, where I grew
up in Meridian, um, I mean justno, getting around it, we were,
we grew up in a poorneighborhood, you know we were,
we were the poor white family,um, and white family in the
district we grew up in.
I say it like it was the HungerGames, but at some degree it
(17:50):
was.
But the area we grew up in wasan old hosiery mill area where
they had a sock and hosiery mill, where your typical shotgun
house and hosiery mill, whereyour typical shotgun house, you
know, just working family, werethere.
And Meridian was at the time.
(18:17):
You know they had an old moneyside and they had just no money
side and we were in the no moneyside.
But I remember, you know Ireally, for the longest time,
just kind of like I hate to saythis because it's an absolute
false statement For a long timeI really didn't see the color.
You know what I'm saying and Isay that because it was just
(18:38):
normal life for us.
It was not like, oh, I don'tsee color, no, you see color,
colors all around you, but inthat degree it was like you know
, I'm white, they're not, we'reall in the same neighborhood
we're going to live around eachother, we better like each other
and get to know each other,because that's what we got mind
(19:00):
that grew up in thatneighborhood.
We all were like dreaming ofthe day we get out.
Like man, I can't wait to getout of here Like we're just, you
know, so doomed for the rest ofour life in this neighborhood.
But man, we loved it.
Everybody played sportstogether.
That was our thing.
We played sports and we playedmusic.
And in Meridian we had feederschools where everybody went.
(19:23):
There was two elementaryschools, there was two middle
schools, there was two juniorhigh schools and everybody fed
into the same high school.
So you really didn't see likeyou went to school, with who you
look like and the neighborhoodyou were from.
So we all went to.
I went to Oakland HeightsElementary School, went to
Carver Middle School, went toKate Griffin Junior High School
and then we all went to MeridianHigh School, carver Middle
(19:44):
School, went to Kate GriffinJunior High School and then we
all went to Meridian High School.
And so we really never saw.
I never saw the color aspectwhere we were quote unquote
different until I got into highschool, because that's when all
the rich kids and all the poorkids came together.
We would see each other onsports fields and different
games.
But so I began to notice youknow, something's a little
(20:10):
different here, that I didn'tsee growing up, something, and
it was like there was a, like anautomatic migration.
All the white people went tothe white people, the, the, the
black and brown people went tothe black and brown people and
everybody else who was left justhung out.
And I was part of the everybodywho's left because we were just
(20:30):
like man, what happened?
And and I remember friends ofmine who were, um, you know,
growing up, best friends, youknow, athletes together, playing
ball together.
You know there was a.
There was just this likemigration, like we, we migrated.
And then we'd see each other inthe ball fields, we'd see each
other in the locker rooms, butduring class, you know, you were
(20:52):
automatically in class together, but during life you just, you
just split off.
And so I began to notice, youknow, of course, by our
demographics and financialsituations, and blah, blah, blah
.
(21:14):
Then I remember our quarterback,for example, lebaron Hedgeman.
He's a pastor out of Meridian,an amazing man of God.
I love this man.
He has a powerful ministry.
I remember I played center, anamazing man of God.
I love this man, he has apowerful ministry.
And I remember I played centerand he was the quarterback, and
I remember he and I were talkingone day and I said, lebaron,
why, why do we not hang outanymore?
(21:36):
He said Wayne, this is just howit is, man.
I said I remember growing up wewere together all the time, you
know, we spent time together,we played together, we run
together, we run the roads, werode the school bus, I mean.
But we're in high school nowand it's like, well, we get
together now.
And it's like, well, we gettogether, we do what we got to
do.
And then we go back to ourcircles and I just really felt
(21:56):
there was something screwed upabout that, and I hate to use
that word, but it just reallywas like.
But I didn't know how toaddress it.
I just thought, well, if Idon't go with the flow, if I
don't, you know, stay in my lane, I'm going to catch heck for it
.
And but I remember neverfeeling comfortable with that,
like my wife always she, shefinds it hilarious that every
(22:18):
time we go back to Meridian shesaid you know more black people
than I've ever known in my life,wow.
And I said, well, honey, I saidthere they were always friends
and family.
Like this is just our life, youknow.
Life, you know.
(22:42):
And I remember thinking, if Ifeel this way as a white man,
how do my black and brownfriends feel every day of their
life?
And I only had to face it forlike a season my 10th grade,
11th grade, 12th grade and 12thgrade year.
I had to face it for a season,but LeBaron had to face it his
(23:02):
whole life and I think, finally,for me, what really opened my
eyes to this is like it's wrong.
But what's wrong with it?
You know, we feel like you know, do we not belong in the same
room?
Do we not belong in the samesocial class?
(23:23):
Or is was I any less because Igrew up in a poor neighborhood?
You know?
No, I was.
I'm human and and, and it'sjust steered my heart to
understand where do people comefrom?
Like you know, I've just foundthat people can't help the hand
that they were dealt, but youcan help how you play the game,
(23:45):
you know, and I remember.
For me, I decided, I said, youknow, if I ever get a chance to
be a blessing to my brother.
I'm going to Financially,emotionally, spiritually, if I
ever get a chance.
I never want to make peoplefeel any less because I knew
(24:06):
what it felt like to be the poorwhite kid that was standing in
the middle of a segregated groupof whites and black and brown
kids that said, you know, pick aside.
When I didn't want to pick aside, I'm like this is our side,
you know, and it and it would.
Oh, you're so frustratedbecause I'm like, can y'all see
(24:32):
how wrong this is?
And I'm the one that's wrongbecause I want to see it made
right.
I'm the one with a skewed viewbecause it's like, hey, you're
not part of that group anymore.
You've got to go over therewhere your folks are at.
Well, who are my folks?
And I remember still to thisday.
(24:52):
I drive through my hometown,meridian, and it's just as
segregated today as it was theday I left.
There's still the old moneyside, the no money side and the
side you need to stay out of.
So it drove me to the fact thatI have this sign in my office
(25:12):
and I want to read it to you.
It says this always pray tohave eyes that see the best in
people, a heart that forgivesthe worst, a mind that forgets
the bad, and a soul that neverloses faith and good.
And I remember I said God, if Icould ever live that way and
(25:36):
help somebody understand thatthey have a place at a table
yeah, none of us belong at,because none of us are righteous
, not one.
But if I can help somebody stayat a table, like I'll say this
like Nettie Winters has helpedme stay at a table that I just
felt like I couldn't stay at atable, I'll say this like Nettie
(25:57):
Winters has helped me stay at atable that I just felt like I
couldn't stay at, but he said no, you can stay at this table and
listen and learn.
And I think that's what shoulddrive us, because you've heard
me say this a lot of times,brian there's a reality to on
earth, as it will be in heaven,and a lot of people are going to
be shocked when they see thatthat's true, that there's not a
(26:19):
lot of table numbers in heaven.
I believe that there's going tobe one massively large table,
the wedding feast of our Lordand Savior, who we're there for.
To answer your question, it'sjust driven me to understand
that if I felt it in a season, Ihave friends that have felt it
(26:40):
for a lifetime.
And how do I live in such a waythat helps change that
narrative around, to say, no,you're welcome at this table,
and so I know I went a long wayaround to answer your question.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
No, no, I appreciate the journey, brother.
I appreciate you taking us onthe journey.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
That's, you know, that's just been the driving
force behind my heart, even hereat Jackson First.
And we've got a long way to go,I'll say it, we've got a long
way to go.
A long way to go, I'll say it,you got a long way to go.
But it's helping our family offaith and those that are not
involved in the local church tounderstand that there's a place,
you know, and making room forthose who don't look like us and
(27:27):
talk like us, even, you know,spend like us, to make a place
to say no, you're welcome,because you know, if Jesus gave
me what I was worth, he couldhave turned me away a long time
ago.
But he said, no, you're welcomeand I can do something with
(27:51):
that kid.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yeah, brother, that's man.
That's really deep.
I really love the way youapproach this and the way you're
telling this story, becausewhat you just said it's not just
theory.
This is like real life live.
This is discipleship, this isreconciliation as it's described
on the ground level asking if Ican just help somebody stay at
(28:14):
the table.
I absolutely love thatsentiment.
There's a whole theology, Ithink, in just that one little
line that you're expressing,because staying at the table is
really where the real workhappens, getting into calling,
being in love with our Savior,not just in the moments when
it's easy or when everybodyhappens to agree with one
(28:37):
another or when the room feelscomfortable, because you're
obviously showing places in yourlife where the room has not
been comfortable, when somethingin you says you know I don't
belong here, or I've heard thistoo many times, or I don't think
I can do this again.
And you're right.
There are a lot of peoplewho've only ever felt that
(28:59):
dislocation, that discomfort,and then there are others who've
just been asked to swallow thatfeeling for an absolute
lifetime.
They didn't get to opt out ofany of that.
So for those of us who get theprivilege of walking in and out
of discomfort.
There's a responsibility, Ithink, to stay, to listen, to
(29:22):
learn to shoulder some of whatwe've been carrying probably for
decades.
That's not just social wisdom.
That cuts to the very, veryroot of what the gospel means as
well.
I love how you bring all ofthis way back to the kingdom
focus, because when you've saidthere's not a lot of table
numbers in heaven, I imagine agiant table where it was a big
(29:48):
circle but people were able tosit on both sides so they could
have good conversations justwithin a really large diet table
.
I think that'll preach.
I think that's good to be said.
I think you just preached it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So let me ask you this, becauseI'm actually getting a real
good question as we summarizethis Someone who stayed at the
(30:10):
table when it got hard, someonewho's helped others stay.
What do you think it means?
To be able to lead other people, other people, into the same
sort of resilience that the Lordhas been able to cultivate in
you for your life?
Speaker 4 (30:30):
Well, you know, I think it was at our last
Mississippi prayer breakfastthat we had several weeks ago.
I just believe it is as simpleas when you reconcile a man's
heart, you reconcile a man'snature.
You know, when God trulychanges a man's heart, he can't
(30:55):
help but change your perspective.
And this may sound veryoffensive and I don't mean it to
be, but I have to question alot of people that carry the
label as Christians, like whereis your relationship with Christ
if you so act, the way that youact towards your brother, and
(31:18):
has your heart truly beenchanged?
Because the fruit that I'mseeing ain't adding up.
And I only say that because Ihad to go through a heart change
to understand and even thebattle of like.
Well, maybe I do need to stay atthe white table and just stay
in my lane.
Well, last time I checked, whena car leaves their lane, it
(31:41):
causes chaos on the other lanesbecause they're like they're
going to hit us and it couldcause a pileup, a wreck, the
news and everything.
But I've just had to learn thatsometimes God may be working in
us to get us out of our lanesso that we can mess up some
things, and I know that's kindof contradictory to the gospel,
(32:04):
but I mean, jesus wasn't as allpretty and sanctified as we.
I mean he messed some stuff upfor the world and I think to
answer your question is like manhas God changed your heart?
You know, has there been a trueheart change?
And I understand it's a process.
We're disciples.
We've not arrived yet.
I don't have the gospel.
You know the global gospeldocument on my wall to say I've
(32:27):
officially become a certifiedChristian.
You know God's still working onme and I think, as he's working
in me, we're an unfinished work.
He's continuing to do that andI think, being open to the fact
that we're fallen, that we'resinful, I tell our people all
(32:48):
the time we can't expect a lostworld to act out.
They just won't.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
You know, wayne, as you were describing getting in
and out of the lane, you knowwhen you're in the wrong lane
and everybody's in the wronglane, at some point there's
going to be a catastrophe thatcan't be overcome, and so I find
that standing at the wrongtable is in the wrong lane.
If you stand at the white tableor the black table, god wants
(33:15):
you out of that lane, eventhough in the wrong lane, if you
stand at the white table, theblack table, god wants you out
of that lane, even though in theshort term it might cause a
little chaos in terms of how youdirect traffic at that moment.
But you know our goal.
I love the way you described it, what you've learned and the
struggle you had.
But you know, one of the thingsthat I picked up from what
you're telling us and you mayunfold this a little bit more is
(33:35):
that either intentionallyoreous, as we call it, or we see
it.
Our goal is to not criticize,condemn or do otherwise, but to
(34:02):
lead them in the direction Godwould have us lead them, and
many times it challenges us tobe in the right lane to do that,
and sometimes it feels I knowit.
For me, sometimes I feel likeI'm the only one in the lane and
I have to be in the wrong lanebecause I'm the only one in it,
right?
Speaker 1 (34:20):
I mean formation is, you know, it's sanctification is
not absent of disruption, right?
I mean formation and forgingand shaping that requires things
that are out of shape to be tobe molded, and there's some
pushing and prodding and andsome bending in order to get
(34:41):
them in the shape that they'resupposed to be.
And so you know, to your point,to your point, wayne, we
oftentimes think that you knowthat that Christ to be in Christ
means you know that we're, thatwe're absent of some disruption
.
But it's the exact opposite Tobe in Christ guarantees there's
(35:03):
going to be some disruptionbecause we're out of sorts,
we're out of shape, we have tobe molded, we have to be placed
and formed into what he desiresfor us to be, not just
individually but collectively.
And so disruption is a part ofthat.
It has to happen and discomforthas to happen.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
You know, you know, brian, as we talk about that,
I'm thinking about that the onelane between Vicksburg and
Jackson.
You know a lot of people inBovine and Elkwood saying where
are these people coming from?
You know they're leaving I-20to take an alternate route to
get to where they're going,because you know I-20 has been
working on at some point somedayand I hope it's soon that
(35:49):
they'll finish that work andI-20 will be so much better for
travel back back and forth.
I think that's the way thekingdom of God is that we change
our circumstances In Jerusalem.
When the apostles was goingthrough Jerusalem, the naysayers
accused them of turning thecity upside down, but what they
(36:12):
actually were doing was turningit right side up.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
What challenges do you see thatthe church is faced with?
Of course, we talked aboutdisruption and that
unwillingness to beuncomfortable and to face that
discomfort.
Are there some other overtchallenges that you're seeing in
our communities that that areposing, posing obstacles to to
the work of reconciliation andunity?
Speaker 4 (36:44):
Yeah, just again you invited me on, so I get to tell
you my opinion, that's right,that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Man, you got the mic, man Use it then that's right.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
That's right, that's right.
Man, you got the mic, man, useit.
Well, I just think we deal andI'm seeing this a lot with the
immigration stuff.
We've begun to pick and choosewho we think is welcome at the
table, and I think that's a verydangerous position to be in.
And I understand the properlines and I understand all that,
(37:18):
but I'm living in a position inmy life where there's always
another side to the story, youknow, and for me and my house,
like my family, we always try toput ourselves in the other
person's position.
You know, why do they feel thisway?
(37:39):
Why are they aggravated?
Why are they trying to bettertheir life and their family?
And I think that's becoming achallenge, because I think the
local church is figuring outthat we missed it somehow,
because I think the local churchis figuring out that we missed
it somehow, like we gave up afight that was rightfully ours
(38:00):
in the first place and we gaveit to the government.
When the scripture that I readsays true religion is taking
care of the orphans and thewidows, you know we'll say well,
they're not necessarily widows.
Well, to me, when they've losttheir earthly good, you know
we'll say well, they're notnecessarily widows.
Well, to me, when they've losttheir earthly good, you know,
when they've lost their earthlyvalue according to man's
(38:22):
standard, they are widowsbecause they've lost something
of worth that people say, well,they don't belong here or you
don't belong in thisneighborhood.
I was in a conversation justlast night over a neighborhood
that's being developed close towhere I live and a friend of
mine said well, I've seen a lotmore African-American families
(38:45):
than I've ever seen before.
He said, and it's wonderful tosee.
But, man, I wonder why it tookso long.
And I said, I know why it tookso long Because they never
thought they were welcome in awhite neighborhood.
I said, you know, and the onething about it is who are we to
say who's welcome and who's not?
(39:06):
What if they told us, hey,you're not welcome because
you're white, you're not welcomebecause you're a Christian,
you're not welcome becauseyou're a Christian.
You know, and I think we as alocal church have to decide, you
know, what fight are we goingto stay in?
And I think it's one that wemust stay in to say, hey, we're
fighting for equal rights here,you know, we're fighting for,
you know, people that arewelcome.
(39:29):
And to me.
I've had to even wonder.
You know, dr King said you knowthe 11 o'clock hour is still the
most segregated hour on Sunday.
You know, and I don't mean tomisquote that, but I think you
know we've allowed it to comeover into the church.
You know we said well, you know, we're going to go to our
churches and we're going to haveservice and all this stuff,
(39:52):
blah, blah, blah.
So anyway, I don't mean to getoff the rap trail, but the main
thing is to me, I feel ourbiggest challenge right now is,
you know, continuing to helppeople understand their worth in
Christ and point them towardsthat and help them develop that
(40:13):
discipleship.
You know sanctification,holiness, you know these things
that we don't like to talk aboutin church much.
You know to the point of like.
You know, helping peopleunderstand God has a plan for
your life and it's a good one.
And you may have to go throughvalleys and I don't understand
those.
I don't understand all of hisways, why God does things a
certain way.
But I know this.
You know I want to be part ofthe church that loves people and
(40:34):
that points them to the Christthat died for them.
We've got to stay the course,in that it's going to be
difficult.
It's going to be hard becausethere's a lot of believers that
don't feel that way.
You know the ones that, theso-called crazy ones, the ones
that are the wild-haired ones,the ones that don't look like us
, the ones that don't talk likeus.
(40:55):
They're just as welcome as weare.
And anyway, I'm going on longrabbit trails, but I just think
we've got to stay the course andstay in the fight of let's be
the church and we're going to bethe church to all men that we
might win some, you know.
So.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah, amen, amen, yeah, wayne, wayne, micah, so
yeah, amen, amen, yeah, way, way, micah, micah come, stands out
to me when the lord you knowwhat is the lord expect of us,
right, uh, what does the lordcall us to do in terms of you
know, uh, doing, doing justice,uh, and, and, and, and, mercy,
(41:32):
and, uh, you know.
But?
But also also James 1 standsout to me where he talks about
don't just be a hero of the word, but be a doer of the word.
And you mentioned what is truereligion is right in that same
passage.
There's three things thatreally God calls of us as it
relates to what true religion is.
One is a controlling of ourtongue, and that's a called a
(41:55):
self-control as it relates toour relationships and how we
engage relationally.
But then number two is how weengage with the least of these,
or those that have beenneglected.
So it's not just simply widowsand orphans, but it's those that
have been neglected.
I think is the higher truth thatJames is calling us to, and
then the abstaining from theimpurity of the world, and so
(42:17):
it's like what James is sayingis that action, what it means to
do.
The word is how we engage inrelationships in terms of what
we do, in terms of controllingourselves to engage well with
one another, what we do to lookat those that have been
neglected and making sure thatwe give the attention we turn
(42:39):
our gaze to the people thateveryone has turned their gaze
away from, and then also how weare living as light in the midst
of dark space.
Right, and that's what it meansto do the word.
(43:07):
And so, to your point, doingthe word is actually how we
engage with these very people,that are you engaging them and
how are you sharing the love ofJesus with them?
And so that's very much, Ithink, at the forefront of the
church's challenges in the 21stcentury, certainly in the West.
For us in America in particular.
What's bringing you hope,brother?
Speaker 4 (43:32):
Man, I'll say this, and I don't say this much and I
should say it more man, onSunday morning, when I look in a
room that is so mixed of youknow, we always like percentages
(43:52):
and all this stuff Like, well,how much of this?
No, we're just like man does itlook like heaven?
And when I look at ourcongregation, I'm seeing that
more and more it looks likeheaven.
And it's so exciting becauseit's like that took 17 years to
finally see a turn, a justslight turn, to finally see a
(44:17):
turn, a just slight turn.
And I'm so thankful for theones that, like Pastor Nettie,
and the ones who stayed at thetable and stayed the course to
say let's let this work, and mybrother, dan Hall, and those men
that have tried tirelessly overand over to have our
(44:37):
congregation like heaven and thecongregation of the church as a
whole, not just Jackson First.
But that gives me hope becauseI think people are realizing
that we really do need Jesus.
Man, and that's where it starts.
You give a man Jesus and that'swhere it starts.
You give a man Jesus and he'llchange his life.
You know, and that's what givesme hope.
(45:00):
And here in this community, youknow, I finally realized that.
You know, if one gets it,that's all that matters.
You know, yeah, it's nice tohave a lot of people, a lot of
congregants, a lot of a full,you know parking lot.
I mean those things are great.
(45:21):
I wouldn't I'd be lying to saythey're not, they're wonderful.
But at the end of the day it'slike Lord if one gets it.
And I, and I think the greatesthope I have is and I think
you'll understand, all of uswill understand this, because
we're parents and grandparents,and I see it in my home, I see
(45:45):
it in my kids.
My kids are learning to seepeople how God sees them.
My kids are understanding thepower of prayer for all mankind,
you know, in all of God'screation.
And to me that's what gives mehope.
I see hope in these Gen Alphas,that man, they just want Jesus.
(46:08):
You know.
I think that that's why so manyhad questions about, and
they're questioning, all thesemoves of God and all these
campuses and all this stuff.
Well, they're questioning itbecause it doesn't look like
what they think it should looklike when there is an honest,
unadulterated pursuit of theKing, above all kings, from a
(46:31):
generation that is so haunted byanxiety and plagued with
unbelievable media, who's rightand who's wrong, but I'm seeing
a generation turn around to saygive me Jesus, like that song
that I told you about in themorning when I rise give me.
(46:53):
Jesus, you know, and I think of,like that's hope.
You know, we're so quick to saywell, man, we're losing a
generation.
But what about the generationthat's being saved?
What about the ones that arestaying at those tables and
saying, hey, we're not going toleave here until we see God move
(47:13):
?
You know, tarrying a little bitlonger.
You know, I remember my dad.
I shared this Sunday.
He used to sing a song byReverend Charles Johnson, a dear
friend of ours I can't evenwalk without you holding my hand
.
And I think we're seeing thatnow.
It's like people saying unlessJesus does it, we can't.
(47:34):
And now it's like people saying, unless Jesus does it, we can't
.
And that's what's given me hopeto stay and keep coming back.
Because, man, it's people thatare getting it.
Dads are being dads again,they're being husbands again,
Families are fighting for faith,and so, anyway, that's just
what's giving me hope, man.
(47:54):
It's such a giddy hope thatit's like thank you, Lord, Not
all hope is lost.
You're still on your throne andworthy to be praised.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Yeah brother, yeah brother, your hope was fueling
my hope, and so we're grateful,grateful for you, man, grateful
for you, brother.
We are so thankful for yourwork at Jackson First, thankful
for your commitment, yoursteadfastness to the greater
Jackson area and to thecommunities that you serve.
(48:29):
We are grateful that somebodycan pastor Nettie Winters.
Incredibly grateful, incrediblygrateful for that.
Amen.
Oh my goodness.
For those of you who arelistening, if you would like to
hear more of this podcast, feelfree to go out, subscribe to
(48:50):
Living Reconciled.
You can find it on any podcastapp.
Search Living ReconciledMission, mississippi.
It on any podcast app.
Search Living ReconciledMission, mississippi.
Download it like, subscribe,share with friends and family.
We would love for you to getthe word out, even leave a
review, a positive review.
Let us know how LivingReconciled has been a blessing
to you, as you've been listeningto this podcast and we always
(49:13):
have great guests like Wayne,pastor Wayne and others.
We would love for you to tunein to what God is speaking
through these incredible,incredible men and women that we
have on this podcast.
And then, lastly, we want topoint to Pastor Wayne and
Jackson first, as well as all ofyou who are listening to
(49:34):
September the 25th, atMississippi College, anderson
Hall, we are hosting our annualLiving Reconciled celebration,
starting at 6 pm.
Please go ahead and pencil itor pen in that date and more
details will be forthcoming.
But you can visit our Web siteto get some preliminary details
and more details about ticketsales and all of that will be
(49:56):
forthcoming.
We're looking forward to thisevent.
It has two aims and twopurposes.
Number one is to allow peopleto see the work of Mission
Mississippi, but number two isto allow people to see one
another.
We are living in a day and timewhere it is becoming more and
more difficult for us to see oneanother spiritually,
emotionally, even at times,physically.
(50:17):
We're looking past one anotherand it's driving so much of our
division.
And so, on September the 25th,we are dedicating some time to
see one another, and so we areincredibly excited about that
evening.
We want to invite you to be apart of it.
September the 25th, andersonHall, mississippi College, at 6
pm.
It's been a great podcast, agreat episode.
(50:39):
Pastor Wayne, we are incrediblygrateful for what God is doing
in you and Jackson.
First, and on behalf of my goodfriends, incredible friends,
special friends, austin Hoyle,nettie, winters this is Brian
Crawford signing off saying Godbless, god bless, god bless.
This is Brian Crawford signingoff saying God bless, god bless,
god bless.
Thanks for joining LivingReconciled.
If you would like moreinformation on how you can be a
(51:08):
part of the ongoing work ofhelping Christians learn how to
live in the reconciliation thatJesus has already secured,
please visit us online atMissionMississippiorg or call us
at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening, orcall us at 601-353-6477.
Thanks again for listening.
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