October 29, 2025 • 58 mins
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In this episode of the Living Reconciled Podcast, Pastor and missionary John Hugh Tate shares what it’s really like to build an English-speaking church in Paris—a city of beauty, pressure, and deep spiritual need.
From raising kids in a secular culture to worshiping weekly in a Muslim-owned brasserie, John paints a vivid picture of reconciliation in action. His simple framework—go deep and go out—shows how authentic faith and gentle clarity can build bridges across some of the world’s toughest divides.
If you care about unity, mission, and living out the gospel in diverse spaces, this conversation will encourage and challenge you. Subscribe and share the episode to help others live reconciled—wherever they are.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Mississippi College, Anderson United Methodist Church, Grace Temple Church, Mississippi State University, Real Christian Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on episode 86 of Living
Reconciled.
(00:32):
I am your host, Brian Crawford,and my good friends, Nettie
Winters, Austin Hoyle,unfortunately can't be with us
this week.
But I do have another goodfriend that I can't wait for you
to hear from.
Before I get a chance tointroduce him to you, I do want
to give a quick shout out tosome good friends and sponsors
of this podcast.
(00:53):
Folks like Nissan, St.
Dominic's Hospital, Atmos EnergyRegents Foundation, Mississippi
College, Anderson UnitedMethodist Church, Grace Temple
Church, Mississippi, RealChristian Foundation, Brown
Missionary Baptist Church,Christian Life Church, Ms.
Doris Power, Robert Ward, andWinners.
Thank you so much for everythingthat you do.
It's because of what you do thatwe're able to do what we do as
(01:13):
an organization and as apodcast.
And today, what we're doing iswe're talking to an incredible
friend, missionary, uh pastor,believer, gentlemen by the name
of John Hugh Tate, who alsohappens to serve on the board of
Mission Mississippi.
John is again a pastor,believer, but he's also a
(01:35):
father, a husband, and a goodfriend of Mission Mississippi.
John, how are you doing,brother?
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
I'm great, Brian.
Thank you for that introduction,and uh it's an honor to be on
here again.
So uh appreciate you uh havingme for the conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:50):
Absolutely, man.
Absolutely.
I would love to just start ourtime, John, because um, as you
alluded to, we have we have hadyou on one time to talk a little
bit about uh your work in thefield uh in the in the very
hard, hard territory of Paris,France.
Um but I would love for you togive us an update, man.
(02:11):
Talk to us a little bit aboutwhat's been going on in and I
said hard with sarcasm, ofcourse, but talk to me about
what's been going on in Paris,France these days, man.
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Yeah, I heard that that hard, hard, uh maybe it was
even the third hard uh on onParis, France.
And and and I hear you, brother.
I know what you're saying, andand some others do as well.
Yeah, let's start there.
Paris is uh it's a wonderful,uh, beautiful, you know,
cultural, uh global city thatuh, you know, that God loves.
(02:41):
And uh they're uh you know, so II don't claim to be like uh uh
Jonah in Nineveh.
Uh we enjoy being there, youknow, the uh you know, as the
end of Jonah, you know, allthose people that God loves.
I'm thinking about the 11million uh people in Mexico
Paris.
That has been quite a change forthis uh this self-proclaimed
(03:03):
country boy from New Albany,Mississippi.
And uh and then 17 years ofministry in Jackson, so 11
million.
I tell folk, they say what's thebiggest uh change or biggest
difference?
You know, is it the language?
I was like, man, it's uh it'sriding metros and buses and you
know taking an hour to geteverywhere.
That is that's been asignificant difference.
(03:23):
But it is a beautiful city.
It uh you know, it is endowedwith with art and architecture
and you know literature, and youknow, I think it is the most
visited city in the world.
It seems like it living there,all those that come through.
But uh we we do have a love forFrance and Paris and have grown
that living there now.
(03:43):
We're in year five, so it's beena blessing to be there.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Wow, John, that's a that's that's a really long
time, man.
It's it's it's blown by.
It's absolutely blown by, man.
Um tell tell me a little bit.
You talked a little bit about uhwhat you what you really, really
appreciate and love about Paris.
Why don't we tease that out alittle more if you don't mind?
Is there some things that justreally kind of resonate with you
deeply about about the uh theexperience that you've had over
(04:07):
the last five years in Paris?
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
Yeah, I mean, one thing people ask me about about
France or the French people oror or Parisians.
The first word that always comesto mind, and I say this as a
huge compliment, they're veryprecise people.
Uh they're precise in theirarchitecture, in their art, in
their language, and they valuethese little things that that
I've I felt like I even take forgranted.
(04:33):
I mean, even in uh I mean thereare little differences in the
cars.
I mean, we own a French car.
There are differences in uh uhjust using of space.
You know, France is about thesize of Texas, and there's still
a lot of people, and so you haveto be creative in how you use
space.
It's a very dense city as well,so you know that that
(04:53):
contributes to it.
But I mean, past that, I lovehistory, and so I mean, I'm just
in the center of some globalhistory and World War II
history.
I mean, the square where ourchurch meets uh was the
underground headquarters of theFrench resistance in uh World
War II, um, which is a really uhI mean, loving history and you
(05:17):
know, spy craft, things likethat, that's cool.
On that square, there's also astatue of a lion, and the uh the
same gentleman who sculpted thestatue of liberty, uh sculpted
that lion, and they actuallyhave the uh the head of the
line, and this is what I mean byprecise.
They have the head of the lineuh directed towards the Statue
of Liberty.
Just little things like thatthat people uh No, they don't
(05:39):
take it for granted, they thinkabout that.
And I think that's uh I thinkthat's just a God-given gift uh
to not overlook anything.
So yeah, we've really enjoyed uhyou know learning more about the
culture and and thoseintricacies of uh of the life in
Paris.
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
Yeah, you mentioned it being, you know, uh you you
know you use the words that thatFrance, the the French are
precise people, right?
Um would you say that isreflected in the agri, not the
agriculture, but thearchitecture and the arts, or
would you just say generally,just overall uh Parisians are
(06:17):
precise people?
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
I mean, I would say I would say overall, because I
think it's a compliment.
I mean, just in the way, youknow, the way they love food.
I mean, brother, you gotta yougotta go over there and uh and
eat and eat well, but the waythey do their courses, the way
they set the table, they don'tyou know take anything for
granted.
And again, I can be uh, youknow, I I man, I don't know how
(06:42):
you are.
I mean, I I I love food.
I wouldn't call myself a foodie.
I mean, sometimes I see food asas fuel, and you know, I hope
there's no uh French or foodieslistening to that because they
would be like, oh my goodness.
But yeah, they would uh manythat I know.
I mean, they they they enjoyfood to agriculture.
Um it's a very, you know, I havea good French friend, actually
(07:03):
he's half French, half British,but he loves French history, and
he said uh, and this sounds likea true Mississippian as well,
but he said to understandFrance, you have to understand
they're people of the land, thatit began as a a peasant country,
peasant not negative, but peoplethat worked the land, that
tilled the land, and uh, youknow, from you know the grapes
(07:25):
that produce the wine to theagriculture, so that there's
that precision.
But then if you go into Paris,and you know, if you look at the
Arc de Triomphe, you know, whichis there, and and you do look at
the architecture and you knowhow precise it is to sculpt you
know some of all these uhcharacters and faces and things,
it's it's amazing.
It's an amazing gift uh that Godhas given that uh not not simply
(07:50):
that we should recognize byseeing it, but just thinking
about you know the time andeffort that was uh put into
creating it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's incredible, man.
Um what turning turning a littlebit towards like you we you
know, the things that you'rereally, really enjoying about
it.
What what are what are some ofthe things that you still find
challenging in terms ofadjusting?
SPEAKER_01 (08:12):
Well, there's so many challenges too, and and you
know, um people ask, you know,how I how I do like it.
I always try to pause because Idon't want to just give a uh a
rose-colored uh whimps of it.
And I don't also, you know, youcan't say it's just all
difficult or challenges, becauseyou know, they're they're
blessings too.
Sure.
Um I do think, you know, it'sit's very urban and gritty.
(08:36):
Um I've I've never lived in NewYork, uh, but Paris is very
dense.
Um the square mileage of Parisproper, the city limits, is
smaller than the square mileageof Jackson, Mississippi.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
And and you've got three to four million people in
the city limits.
Wow.
And then you've got anadditional seven, six to seven
outside.
So you you know, it's justdensely packed.
I mean, there we've had missionteams come over from churches in
Mississippi, and and that'ssomething not just me, but but
everybody underestimates.
You just don't think about Parisas a place that you're just
(09:11):
packed in a metro, you know,with a lot of Africans and
Asians and Europeans, and youknow, just shoulder to shoulder
and and and holding on.
But that's that's part of lifein that city in that that urban
context.
Um and I think to do ministrythere, you need to at least be
prepared for that and adjust tothat.
(09:32):
It's a very, very urban, grittycity.
You know, that's one thing.
I think the uh then I will behonest too.
I mean, this is uh, you know,we're Christians, we're we're
brothers in Christ, you know,but uh but France, Paris,
Europe, I mean, it's a verynon-Christian context.
And uh that is something we cantalk more about that, but I say
(09:53):
it over and over again, from afamily perspective, from raising
kids to uh to just a lifeperspective, living in a
neighborhood.
I took for granted living inJackson, the the Christian, you
know, the Christian culturalBible belt context, which
doesn't mean everybody'sChristian there, but you also
(10:14):
know there's an underpinning ofChristian values that generally
speaking, most families go tochurch.
That doesn't mean they'reChristian.
We know that most kids, youknow, are raised with some
foundations that we just don'thave where where we live now.
One of our son, we have threeboys, thanks for for mentioning
(10:34):
that, and and my wife Linda.
But one of our sons they go to aa French public school, but with
uh some English classes as well.
It's bi it's bi-cultural,bilingual.
But one of them said, you know,it's just very difficult being a
Christian in a non-Christiancontext.
And so raising kids in that ishas been a challenge.
(10:56):
And uh it's been a huge uhdisparity coming from from
Jackson, Mississippi that we'vehad to adjust to.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
Yeah, when you talk about the challenge of being in
a predominantly unchurchedcontext, um what are some of the
opportunities in terms of youknow, lessons learned?
Um, you know, some of the, youknow, at least for for me when I
(11:24):
think about opportunities, oneof the first things I think
about is kind of how we can insome ways our overly church
context can can in some waysdrag us down in a sense because
we we we tie we we tend to seeit almost as an entitlement, if
that makes sense, versusactually versus actually
(11:44):
cherishing the experience ofbeing able to worship together,
cherishing the experience ofbeing able to just have places
and spaces where you can sit andtalk about the Bible openly and
and and and that entitlement cankind of sour us on in in some
ways in terms of our Christianexperience.
So are there some opportunitiesin terms of being, you know,
(12:05):
being in a place whereChristianity is not as broad and
not as widespread?
Um are there some are there someopportunities that come out of
that?
SPEAKER_01 (12:14):
For sure.
And I love how you use the theword the you know opportunity,
that phrase opportunity.
I would say, you know, what itinitially comes to mind, the
opportunity, each individual, wehave to go deep intentionally
and we have to go outstrategically.
Meaning, like we can't just takeit for granted that entitlement
(12:36):
that you talked about of what webelieve and why we believe what
we believe.
We have to be intentional to godeep within ourselves and even
ask ourselves, do I reallybelieve what I say I believe?
You know, or is it just uh is itjust something I've learned and
even learned to communicate?
But so you know, we we try todisciple our kids.
(12:57):
I mean, I try to, you know, fromdevotions every morning before
they go, you know, intentionallytalk, but to go deep and you
know, do you believe what weprofess?
And then to go outstrategically, meaning really be
thoughtful in how we communicateand when we communicate with
(13:17):
others.
One of our sons too went on acamping trip uh this past summer
with some friends, and you know,he pr they were sitting around
the campfire and he prayedbefore he uh before they eat
they ate just on his own.
And and one of his friends, agood friend, is a a
self-proclaimed describedatheist.
(13:38):
You know, just now I I don't,you know, I I personally don't
think they're really anyatheists.
We all worship something, but uhI mean that's uh you know that's
a cultural word that's used,like, you know, I'm an atheist,
you know.
I mean, how can you believethis?
And and our son was uh, youknow, we're proud of him.
He described it, we weren'tthere, but uh, you know, he
didn't react.
Uh, you know, he took it in.
(13:59):
Still a friend, still a goodfriend, and he was able to uh
you know give a defense for whathe believed and also to uh you
know to share and be open andlisten.
So you have to strategically goout.
Like he's not going to risk thatguy is not going to receive, you
know, if he just uh you knowsaid, well, you need to believe
(14:20):
what I believe, or um, you know,this is the way, the truth, and
the life, and you know, you'reyou're not there yet, and that
you know for you, pity.
You know, that's not gonna Imean we know that doesn't work,
but sometimes even a we can havea communication strategy or
posture that might even speakthat without us knowing it.
(14:42):
So he's got to be strategic inhow he uh how he talks and and
when he does so.
SPEAKER_00 (14:48):
Yeah, you know, it's it's funny that you mentioned
that, John, because Iimmediately um just start
thinking about the reality thatthat's in some ways that's our
culture increasingly in theStates.
But I don't know if the churchhas pivoted to adjust to that,
you know, and so and so we stillare treating the culture or
we're still engaging the culturelike uh like the Christian ethic
(15:12):
is just understood and assumed,and that we can just kind of
show up, spill, spill, spill outalmost like a track in human
form, and and can do that minusrelational engagement,
relational evangelism, you know,befriending and listening and
(15:32):
and and and cultivating trustand and all of that.
But I think our culture verymuch is shifting in that
direction where uh where weshould be pivoting in a sense in
the same way that a missionaryin Paris, France would be uh
pivoting.
I mean, is that does that makesense at all to you?
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
100% uh makes sense and agree.
You know, it and as you'retalking, I think the Bible, you
know, it it presents a verynuanced view to me at least on
mission strategy uh individuallyand as the church.
You know, I I love Jeremiah 29,as many do.
I mean, there's the famousverse, you know, I know the
(16:09):
plans I have for you to give youa hope and a future.
But you know, that's written ina context to uh as a letter that
God sent to his people who werein a foreign culture, a foreign
language, foreign context.
Yes.
You know, and what did he saydo?
Uh well, really that you knowthere were two there were two uh
options initially presented.
(16:30):
One was to fully acclimate, asthe Babylonians wanted God's
people to do.
Um, and like the Babylonianstried to get Daniel and his
friends to um you know to haveall the education and eat all
the food there, and they said,no, we're not gonna fully
acclimate.
But then the uh you know Godsaid, Don't follow the prophets
who are saying just totallyisolate amongst yourselves and
(16:52):
and be tribal.
And so the nuanced view is wedon't fully acclimate to the
culture, and yet we don't fullyisolate ourselves as the church
and Christians either.
And uh, you know, part of thatis being in, not of, and you
know, it can be a cliche, but alot of cliches are great truths,
and uh it is very nuanced.
Uh, and we're trying to do thattoo as a family.
(17:13):
You know, we um our kids, again,they're in a French public
school, um, you know, which ischallenging, but also we just
believe that we are called to belight and be out there and be
right in the middle of the city,of the cities, uh, in and and
that speaks, you're right,exactly, to American culture,
increasingly differentlanguages, even, uh, and
(17:36):
different races, and uh the mixof uh of different others and um
you know to be right in andamongst them.
And and we shouldn't, we we havenothing to fear.
But uh and I say that, I mean,but we can have anxieties and
fears always around people ofdifferent beliefs, and you know,
(17:57):
are we gonna say the rightthing, uh, communicate the right
way?
And we need to that's why we Ithink we also have to be
intentionally go deep um daily,you know, in God's word, in
prayer, and in Christiancommunity.
But Christian community thatalso says we're not just gonna
isolate, but we're not gonnafully acclimate either.
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Right, right.
And and it's and it I think umeven as I'm hearing you this,
you know, discuss thisexperience, what I'm hearing is
the reality that this isprobably going to anchor anchor
your faith in ways that thatmaybe even being surrounded in a
(18:37):
culture of Christian ethics andChristian faith, professing uh
Christians may not necessarily,you may not have the opportunity
to have it anchored as sure.
Because you're gonna there'slike trials and testing and and
there's so many differentdifferences of opinion and so
many different ideas that arebeing tossed your way to kind of
counter, you know, the faith.
(18:59):
And so I I would imagine thatthe faith is very much tried and
tested in in a space like Paris.
Is that true or what what whatwhat do you think about that?
Would it put would you push backon that a little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (19:13):
I know, I know mine has been tried and tested.
And you know, I mean, speakinghonestly and talking to other
missionaries, I mean, we aremissionaries uh technically, but
uh I mean spiritual warfare isreal, it's not uh hokey pokey.
Um I think C.S.
Lewis said it, you know, the thedanger about spiritual warfare
(19:36):
is twofold is one, you know,everything is spiritual warfare,
and then second, nothing isspiritual warfare.
And it's neither of no of those,but it is uh it you know, it so
it's real.
I think whenever you know you'reexpanding the kingdom of Christ
personally, collectively, youknow, there's opposition, and
uh, and and it will test andreveal your blind spots, and so
(20:01):
that will certainly occur.
Also, you know, I mentioned 11million people, but you and I
come from a context in inMississippi where uh you know
there's a plethora of churches.
There's still a need forchurches, but uh we we live in
very uh and or I was grew up andhave lived in in very thick you
(20:24):
know, thick uh community, bothculture and neighborhoods.
You know, it's very thick, andit's like a fabric that it's
it's so thick, if you pull outone strand, the community like
feels it, you experience it, anduh, and that's great for the
Christian community too.
You know, it's just real thick,and and uh one of the benefits
(20:44):
uh of the church and what thechurch should be.
So we're tested by it's ourchurch is very fragmented,
meaning like you know, there arevery few churches in the midst
of all those people.
So, you know, we live in anapartment complex where I don't
know any other Christians inthat apartment complex.
And yet, you know, I lived 17years in a neighborhood and
(21:08):
street, and I think all myneighbors would have professed
to be Christian, uh, you know,in some form or fashion.
And, you know, so it's very uhit's very fragmented.
Again, I talked about thechallenge of of kids, and you
know, you don't know their thevalue set or the worldview of
the friends that they are atschool with.
(21:29):
So that is uh it folks more thatwe have to disciple in the home
and not take that for grantedeither.
Uh we have to grow deep in thechurch community that we have or
that we're building.
And uh, you know, I do thinklike you and I, I mean, I I know
I I'm not gonna speak for you,but I think being here and being
(21:49):
from families here, you know,it's a blessing to be from that
thick community.
And I think it's it's like anexternal gift God gives us that
we can also give it to otherswherever we go.
So we like we know what richcommunity is like, we know that
depth and we can uh buildconnections.
And honestly, I think that'shelped us to start and grow uh
(22:11):
the church there in Paris.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Speaking of which, talk to us a little bit about
where the church is and at thismoment in its life, um, what
what is the demographic makeupand what are some of the uh
successes as well as some of thetrials that you've experienced
in church planning in France?
SPEAKER_01 (22:31):
Yeah, so I'm a pastor with Emanual
International Church.
So Manual International Churchwas first founded in 1963.
Uh so it's international,meaning English speaking.
And so I'm a pastor there, butthey had a vision about seven
years ago to uh to plant morechurches and to grow a family of
(22:52):
churches under the sameassociation uh around Paris.
So I so we moved there to bothuh be a pastor at EIC, we call
it, and then plant a new churchin a different area of Paris.
We're in the southern part ofParis on the left bank, which in
French is called Reve Gauche.
(23:13):
There's my French for you.
But uh Reve Gauche, and so we weplanted and started worship
Easter of 23.
So uh, you know, God has allowedus to um to worship every Sunday
now for two and a half years uhthere on the left bank of Paris,
uh Reve Gauche.
And uh we've grown, you know,we've grown a stable community
(23:35):
that's uh that's established.
SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
What's what's your what's your current um your I
guess your attendance on on anyLord's Day right now, John?
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
So we've we've averaged about uh we've averaged
about 65 people.
SPEAKER_00 (23:49):
And then is that substantial in a in a in a
Paris-France context?
SPEAKER_01 (23:55):
Yeah, I mean I I think the Bible believing gospel
preaching, you know, the largerchurches in Paris, the largest
church is, you know, Protestantum Bible-believing gospel
preaching, it's about 200people.
Yeah.
So uh that's the large so we'veuh you know, I mean, our highest
attendance Sunday I would say isabout 85, 90.
Wow, wow.
And then uh a low Sunday wouldbe about 50.
(24:18):
So we've you know, I think we'vedeveloped a a good uh a good
community, a good church withinthat context.
And I remember some I remember aFrench pastor, he was well, he
was half French, half American.
SPEAKER_02 (24:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:32):
When we were thinking about moving over, and
he said, Man, you've got to beused to the the context here and
the numbers game.
I was like, Oh, I'm fine, youknow.
I'd I'd be fine with 70 people,and he's like, Well, would you
be fine with seven?
Because that's and I was like, Idon't but he he actually made
that statement.
And and yes, I know we say wheretwo or more is gathered, but uh
you know, there are there are Iknow churches that regular meet
(24:56):
with 20 or 30 people.
Um but look, here's here's theoverall numbers, yeah, uh Brian.
You know, Paris Metro area, 11million people.
And I mean I know for a factthere there's definitely less
than 10,000 people in, again,Protestant, uh gospel believing,
(25:17):
uh, Bible preaching uh churches,maybe less than 5,000.
So if you just do those numbers,that's the you know, 10,000 is
very uh you know, that that'sgiving some grace.
5,000 might be a conservativenumber, but I'm literally
thinking about 10 to 20 churcheswith less than 200 people.
And so that's what you uh that'swhat you have.
(25:38):
Wow.
Wow, wow.
Yeah, I mean that that that's athat's a whole different
experience.
Yeah, I'm not just throwing thenumbers around.
I mean, I've asked people like,could is that fair to state
publicly, oh yeah, you know,definitely less than 10,000 you
know, in uh in a context of 11million.
So those are that's indicative.
Um and I well I think and thatand Paris probably has the most
(26:00):
you know gospel activity, churchplanting activity than the rest
of uh France.
I mean, there I think there's alot of I mean, we live in an
exciting time.
There's more church planting,there's more gospel ministry,
there's more renewal, butthere's still a lot to do, you
know, in in generations to come.
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:19):
So that's why go ahead.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
No, I was just about to ask.
Um really and and and and let melet me pause.
Let me sit on that first.
You you go ahead and finish yourthought.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
Well, just meaning that uh, you know, I think
that's one of the reasons wefelt motivated to go.
So like we're Mississippiresidents, we're always gonna
have a home base here.
Uh, I definitely feel convictedto help other people go, whether
that's teams or individuals.
But one of the big reasons wewent is uh a larger vision for a
(26:52):
global city that has, you know,that's a crossroads of Europe,
Asia, Africa, you know, allthese visitors.
But to to grow a churchplanting, you know, family there
and to plant other churches.
So that being said, I'm readyfor you you to come, man.
And who knows, you may getrecruited, and we'll see.
(27:12):
But uh, you know, there's justthere's a lot, there, there's a
lot of great ministry that canbe uh can be done and and
churches that need to beplanted.
Yeah.
So we didn't just go to plantone church.
I mean, be we came to be part ofthis family of church plants and
new churches that we hope todevelop.
And and who knows, maybe beyondFrance, but definitely build a
(27:32):
pipeline in Mississippi and getchurches and individuals
connected and involved.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
That's phenomenal, man.
That's phenomenal.
Um I'm I'm I'm if you don'tmind, I'm gonna pivot a little
bit and talk a little bit aboutthe way the last time we had had
our pie, we talked a little bitabout um division and how it
uniquely manifests itself inFrance.
(27:58):
Really curious just to kind ofpick back up on that and kind of
go go down that line, go downthat street again.
And just as you've spent moretime in France, you know, how do
you see uh divisions in a in aglobal city, like you mentioned,
with all of these differentpeople and cultures, you know,
(28:19):
coming together and and and insome ways fusing together, in
some ways colliding together.
Um how do you see division andand and then the challenge of
unity uniquely manifestingitself in a place like France?
SPEAKER_01 (29:16):
Yeah, I mean it's a wonderful question, and I think
it's a question we need to keepgoing deep into and that that
mission Mississippi you knowpresses us into.
So you know, whether it's it'sMississippi or Paris, France,
you know, uh that that worddivision.
Yeah.
I think in that culture, umwhich is also reflective of I
(29:43):
think any culture, you have youryour nationals, uh your home
base, your home tribe, uh, youknow, people that were born and
raised there.
And there's always there'salways the potential for
division with that other person.
That's what I'd call.
You know, that other personwho's who's different, who's
(30:06):
coming in.
I mean, the Bible speaks of itas the alien, you know, or the
immigrant we might use, uh, butalso the outsider.
And then you take that from ayou know, from a national
perspective and uh a policyperspective to to use that word
(30:26):
of uh of immigration.
It's a it's a really big deal inFrance in the sense of open
borders, like many Europeancountries.
So I mean, there are you knowthere's their their
neighborhoods in Paris or theirenclaves outside of Paris.
And I've literally been in themand I've thought, you know, this
(30:47):
is, you know, arguably moresimilar to like Tunisia.
Okay.
And and so my point being isthat you've got an influx, okay.
And so you know that is creatingthat that's that's creating a
sense of, you know, are we beingwho we are as a culture, as a
(31:09):
nation, as French people.
I'm not French, but I mean I'man immigrant too.
You know, I just happen to be aWesterner more.
Yeah.
And uh and so we can get intothat as an American too, but I'm
an immigrant as well.
Some are much more welcoming tous, you know, than others.
But it's definitely given me asense of being the the outsider
(31:32):
you know coming into a culturewanting to be embraced.
I mean wanting to make makefriends, make relationships,
have good neighbors.
SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
And yeah, I'd say there's stark division, but you
see it worldwide because of uhyou know whether you call it
globalization or open borders umyou know and how do we you know
some people would say how do wemitigate this how do we stop
this some might say um you knowthat debate between the national
(32:02):
and the and the other is um Ithink it's a global conversation
that uh different countries areaddressing in different ways and
and obviously uh you know it'san issue here too as Americans I
would say um I mean also just tobring it back to a Christian
perspective you know I mean wehave the answer not only in
(32:24):
Christ but in the family ofChrist you know being brothers
and sisters in Christ and thatuh runs across all languages all
races all cultures and I thinkthe more we can live that out
you know both in our both to ourneighbors and to the nations
because Jesus specifically callsus to both neighbors and nations
(32:47):
literally then uh you know wecan show I mean there is a you
know there's a better waythere's a non-tribal way there's
a um uh you know that that wecan connect and embrace uh other
people yeah yeah there's anon-tribal way and that
non-tribal way do you see it asmanifesting itself in a
(33:11):
prominent way in in France or doyou see the tribalism as a as a
you know as a just like you knowas it's reflected in the States
right in the in the US do yousee that kind of tribalism and
that kind of intensity showingitself in in France well I mean
I I honestly I see moresimilarities and that's uh again
(33:35):
on so I'm we're on year five soit's not like we've lived there
20 years but it's not like ourfirst year and yeah you know the
challenges that I think uh someof some of which we see in in
this country um you could easilysay you know are seen there too.
SPEAKER_01 (33:54):
Meaning like you have people born and raised in
France and then you know youhave others coming from
different cultures and contextsthat are um you know that you
know it's a socialist country aswell which is very different so
that immediately receive freehealth care.
I mean that's a that's a stateof the society that's a that's a
law there that immediately canset up shop that immediately
(34:17):
could get work.
So less barriers there thanhere.
And uh and so you know you haveand then you have a
non-Christian environment.
So you people aren't even youknow it's it's not even a a
framework of like how should weact towards the outsider as
Christians.
Right.
Are you hearing what I'm saying?
Right so if you don't evenabsolutely not even not even if
(34:38):
people mean it here they atleast sometimes say it or at
least want it to be said so theycan you know even look the
Christian part.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (34:48):
There's still some social capital.
I mean even with all of theerosion there's still some
social capital in you know kindof professing uh a position of
faith in the west uh in thestates in the states yes exactly
so there's not that there at alland yeah I mean I I know it's
not a political conversation butall conversations are political
(35:11):
because politics just aboutpeople but yeah that is a that
is a huge issue for France andthe influx of foreigners coming
in with the uh those that have astrong national identity and and
how that how that's gonna beplayed out in the next five to
ten years.
When you when you think about uhdivision um you know we're faced
(35:36):
we're faced with a lot of ithere in the West and so we are
uh man we're increasinglydivided um at least more than
more than I've seen in my in mylifetime of course you know of
course you can go back furtherand and from 1619 forward and
and you know the American storyis a story of tensions and
(35:56):
divisions and and wrestlingrights and wrestling rights back
and then wrestling them away andback and forth like a seesaw but
this is a very unique moment umfor for the for the US how does
France when you're around uhcitizens of France and the
(36:17):
people of Paris how do theyperceive the state of our
country right now well you knowBrian in in one sense in one
sense you know from World War IIon really um or really a couple
(36:42):
you know several years afterWorld War II I think there has
been uh a sense that you knowAmericans are you know we we
isolate ourselves you know we'renot as cultured we are not as uh
interested in the world um youknow we're more interested in in
what's you know between the twooceans and I think there's some
(37:04):
truth to that and I think that'svery fair.
SPEAKER_01 (37:06):
Uh it's very fair for a person to be concerned
with uh you know his family andhis city and you know we were
both you and I I mean yes theAmerican story but God planted
us in a country you know that isuh that is separated by two
oceans from the rest of theworld and so we're just
(37:27):
naturally more more isolated.
SPEAKER_00 (37:29):
I also think that uh I'm a history buff so I I'm
tying it to history I also thinkFrance and some European
countries you know no no onelikes losing power let's say
that no individual no countryand for generations European
countries were the most powerfulon earth uh from you know both
(37:50):
especially France the UK but youcan go further back Spain and
even Portugal but uh you know tolose and and this is fair too
you know you're to not be youknow at the epicenter of the
most powerful countries of theworld uh I think uh I think envy
is a real thing and so I mean Iwould I would come out and say I
mean I think there is uh some ofthat as well um you know no one
(38:14):
no one really admits to that butI mean I feel like I could state
that as uh you know countriescan envy one another and I think
America can be the envy ofothers now past that I also
think that uh you know some ofthe the policies that uh that
have gone on over you know thelast several years uh you know
(38:36):
people identify um peopleidentify like the current
administration and are very somewould say oh I wish we had that
here okay and then others willsay you know I can't believe
that's happened this ishappening this is so crazy this
is so uh you know this is notright so I've heard both and
(38:56):
it's really been kind of a 50-50type split but uh what interests
me the most is more and morepeople there are saying you know
I wish we had and this is beingsaid a make Europe great again
you know here's here's thatthat's that's happening yeah
here's what I'm hearing John isthat it's not a monolith just
like it's not a monolith hereyou know it's all sorts of
(39:19):
diversity of thought and andideas and and you got you got
you got you know center leftcenter right you know far left
far right it's that it's thatyou know and I think the same
mistake that that that we makein the in in the states right
where or that people make aboutthe states in terms of kind of
(39:39):
lumping everybody in this bigbucket where everybody's
thinking alike and and seeingthe world alike it's easy for us
in the states to make those sameassumptions about you know other
other nations other countriesand and not see the diversity of
thoughts and opinions andsentiments as it relates to like
(40:01):
you said as it relates to theplurality of uh of of the people
that are coming in some peoplehave one ideal about it other
people have a totally differentideal about it let me give you a
parallel story um so you know Ileft uh I came back to visit the
U.S.
SPEAKER_01 (40:17):
a week ago but uh rewind I remember I was in
France I was at a study abroadprogram in 1995 and so you had
the same kind of mentalityphilosophy towards America as as
in the majority might say ohyeah you know they're isolated
they're not as cultured as weare you know that that type of
(40:39):
uh statement but then in 1995 uhthe US came in and ended the
Bosnian conflict in the DaytonAccords and I just remember that
happened November of 1995 and Iwas there and I remember several
people said you know you know wesay this these things or we
think about America but look atyou you must be so proud to be
(41:02):
an American your country justended this conflict that's been
going on for a decade here andit made me very proud I mean I
know pride you know as aChristian C.S.
Lewis is but it did make me veryproud to be an American fast
forward to a week ago ten daysago I almost heard the same
thing with the uh with the thepeace accords in Israel I mean I
(41:26):
mean literally the same thingjust different place in saying
you know we can say these thingsuh you know about this your
country or even about thisadministration but you must be
so proud that you came in andit's over and it's done.
And so uh I just think that'sthat's very significant um but
it also plays to your point youknow there are a lot of people
(41:47):
that can say different thingsbut it's uh it's not a this is
not a racial statement it's nota black or white thing it
meaning like it's it is nuancedyou know it's it's gray in terms
of uh opinions people have youknow about Americans I've heard
people say you know I can'tbelieve President Trump is doing
this this and this but thenthey'll say but you know what we
(42:09):
really should be paying more toNATO and we should be protecting
ourselves more which isinteresting it's like that's the
policy that's trying to be uhput forth but just because the
personality you're like I'm notgoing you know you know
personalities and and thepolicies are different but uh
they might believe the same butuh they might not be for the
(42:32):
person who's speaking it's ayeah we we we've adopted a a
very you know team basedapproach to all all of our
political um pol politicalmusings right it's it's like hey
I John made a good point but Ican't acknowledge that John made
(42:52):
a good point because he's onhe's with those other guys you
know yeah it's and it's and itsounds like that might be
permeating even even you know uhoverseas across the pond as well
yeah I mean emotion definitelyhas its place yeah you know but
sometimes it doesn't and if youyou can really discipline
yourself to take emotion out ofit listen to people I mean or
(43:15):
take prejudice out of it I meanprejudice is a real thing and
just take your take the inherentprejudices take perhaps learn
prejudices out whether you're aEuropean or you're French or
American or Southerner put it onthe shelf and try to listen and
uh that's that's a realdiscipline and uh I think we
(43:38):
need to promote that more Ithink um we need to stress that
more.
SPEAKER_00 (43:43):
Yeah I mean to be honest with you it's a m it's
almost kind of like a muscle uhyou know in terms of the way you
think about uh bias and enteringinto conversations with with you
know we all carry bias we we andwe won't escape that because
that's just kind of part of thethe fallen human condition is
that we we we see things with aslant but but I but I think I
(44:04):
think the more time we spend indiverse spaces and places and
the more variety we allowourselves to uh engage in terms
of people from different walksof life I think in some ways
while it cannot completelyremove our bias it does help us
in terms of being able to uhmanage it better and and not
(44:28):
just and not just simply fallinto that space that we fall
into when we when we are whenwhen we're exclusively team
based you know and we are likehey yeah if if I I mean I you
you talk you tell me if that'sif that's something that
resonates with you from yourfrom your vantage point where
you are in France.
SPEAKER_01 (44:47):
It does.
I mean let me give you anexample of this um you know I
mean we're all I mean I I saywe're all I mean I was our
family was I mean many I meanreally impacted by Charlie
Kirk's assassination I'llprofess I didn't follow him a
lot sure really before that umand I and I would say
unfortunately I would have likedto have known more I mean it you
(45:09):
know but you hear the noise somuch so then after the
assassination I startedlistening more to the debate uh
being interested well in Franceuh we came across they were
having a a memorial for him uhsome American uh section you
know group and it was going tobe at the statue of uh Lafayette
(45:32):
uh in Paris Lafayette you knowwas uh aide de camp uh for
George Washington and and foughtin the American Revolution and
you know initially I saw I saw Isaw Hamilton so I know all I
know all the six you know allabout that but uh you know at
first I was like at first I waslike oh I'd like to go to this
(45:54):
and then I was like well shouldI go like how is that gonna be
perceived by people in my churchcommunity or how is that maybe I
shouldn't and then I was like noI'm just gonna go it's but I
want to admit like I had thatyou know that thought that pause
of like well because you knowhow people will react but at the
end of the day he's like anAmerican it was a horrible
(46:16):
incident and I just wanted topay my respects and there was an
opportunity and it was you knowit was not political honestly it
was not that religious I mean wesang amazing grace you know we
had the Lord's prayer but theytried to make it uh you know
they really toned it down but Iwanted to go and there were
about 300 people there aroundthe statue and there was a
(46:38):
program and I was glad to go touh you know to to try to pay
respects and um you know that'syou know in some ways we we got
to get past well what peoplethink you know and move past
positions to just you know humanbeings you know our our shared
common common humanity and um Iand yeah you know they're
(47:01):
they're definitely definitelydifferent perspectives but uh I
mean some of the things I meansome of the things he stood for
uh I think are are wonderful inthe sense of and I'll I'll say
you know in terms of and I'veI've listened uh open debate uh
that can be uh you know in aconversation uh that that
(47:21):
attempts to be kind listeningand I've listened to other you
know podcasts both for andagainst since then but that has
been a common denominator thatum debate is not a bad word you
know and uh and that we can havediffering opinions and share
them and disagree and and evenengage in um in kind debate.
SPEAKER_00 (47:45):
Yeah I mean I've seen I've seen and heard uh
incredible incredible thoughtsyou know like you said both both
for uh for and against and andwhat and what what it boils down
to is that you know he was anincredibly complex person
personality uh and and there'sand and the and I think one of
(48:07):
the big challenges we're facedwith right now is that our
information streams um don'tallow us to really veer into
that complexity.
It keeps us in one space or theother and so it keeps us either
you know seeing seeing the senseof you know seeing and hearing
the things that would cause usto you know uh have great pause
(48:29):
and great reservation about hislegacy or seeing and hearing the
things that would cause us tovenerate you know and and treat
his legacy as almost is near isnear spotless you know and and
and there's like there's like alot of there's a lot of gray in
the middle of that but our ourinformation streams are so
vastly different that we neverget a chance to veer to the gray
(48:53):
and it's to our detriment it'sto our division that that that
that transpires and and you knowto your point about the debate
piece I think that's one of thethings that I'm most alarmed by
right now in this culturalmoment is that we don't have the
capacity like we should andwe're losing the appetite for
healthy dialogue for healthy youknow uh not even necessarily
(49:17):
debate but discourse you know umyou know as image bearers being
able to agree to disagree beingable to acknowledge when hey you
went and concede when you make apoint you know because it goes
all the way back to what we werejust talking about earlier.
We've gotten to the point wherewe can't even concede with one
another because if I concede,what is my team going to think?
You know what are what are theguys that are behind me that are
(49:38):
rooting rooting me on what arethey going to think if I concede
that point?
I can't concede that point toJohn I got to just you know I
just got to bear down and justact like John didn't make a
great point when he made a greatpoint.
And I just feel like more thananything if we can't learn how
to have dialogue and discourseand and with humility where we
acknowledge one another whetherwe make a good point or not I
(50:03):
just feel I just feel like thethe the journey to unity becomes
that much more difficult.
SPEAKER_01 (50:10):
Yeah I think I think too often and and look we can
think this now I mean in in anypublic discourse that is you
know promoted out now in theworld I mean we always think
what are the optics of this yeseverybody's thinking that what
are the optics of this yes uhwhether it's uh whether it's the
truth or not maybe whether it'sreally what we believe and I
(50:33):
think that's a contribution fromyou know you don't blame
everything on social media butbut at the same time you're
thinking so much you know how amI perceived in this I mean it's
training us to think everythingabout how and that's why you
know authenticity is sorefreshing when you really see
it.
You know like you know you cantell like they just they just
don't care.
(50:54):
They were authentic in themoment and uh and weren't
weren't as concerned.
SPEAKER_00 (50:59):
So um yeah you know going back to uh uh the debate
piece too the the other thing isand I don't know where this come
from you can't blame socialmedia on this but making the
other the other is not the enemyeither you know right I mean we
we worship we haven't even goneinto this but you know we
(51:20):
worship at a cafe or brasserieyou know owned by Muslims from
Algeria very different in injust about every way and and we
do love them and they do love usand we have built a relationship
um that that's really abeautiful thing you know across
(51:41):
uh not just me I'm talking aboutme my family but many in our our
church family as well and thatthey would defend us and they
don't speak English so wecommunicate in French together
but uh yeah I mean I've learneda lot from them as well and uh
the other does not mean theother is not a bad thing the
(52:02):
other is is definitely not theenemy and so um you know they
may they may have a lot ofaspects and um and attributes
that you can look at yeah johnjohn I think I think that what
you just articulated there tiesvery much back to this sentiment
(52:26):
that you had articulated earlierin terms of by being in a space
where the Christianity is notthe uh all-encompassing you know
force right but but you are in aspace with diverse people
diverse groups from differentwalks of life different
(52:46):
backgrounds I think there'ssomething cultivated in you
where you where you learn how tonavigate through those
differences with a little bitmore skill and a and a and a
little bit more care uh versuswhen you're in a space where
Christianity is the dominantexpression it's just easy to
kind of bulldoze over everybodyelse right or exclude yourself
(53:08):
from everybody else right butwhen but when you when you are
5,000 amongst millions it's yeahyou you have you have to cross
through these other spaces youhave to engage these other
people and you learn how to dothat with with with genuine
respect and regard uh for forfor those individuals as image
bearers right because at the endof the day like you said uh yeah
(53:31):
we yeah we may we may um havedifferences of opinion and those
differences could have eternalconsequences I mean that's why
you're in France to to ministeruh to those eternal consequences
right but at the same time evenwith those eternal consequences
the reality is is that you arean image bearer and thus you
deserve the affirmation of thedignity that it that goes with
(53:54):
being that image bearer.
SPEAKER_01 (53:56):
Yes that we are uh the Mago Day every human being
is is made in the image of Godyou know every every every human
life and also let me let me bevery uh clear and specific on on
this too you know we're notsaying that everyone needs to
you know pack up be a missionarylonger term I mean I think
(54:17):
Mission Mississippi here youknow offers many opportunities
you know whether it's uh youknow collective prayer or
partner churches or that you cango into different cultural
contexts you know locally andalso I mean I love the
short-term missions that uhchurches do as well you know we
(54:38):
led several efforts to Hondurasand India that were very you
know rewarding um to to allowpeople you know to have a an
opportunity for for a shortseason you know both to be part
of of worship and ministry indifferent cultural contexts and
also to begin to developing youknow you know that nuance
(55:01):
towards uh towards towards thenon-Christians towards the
others so I just reallyencourage you know both churches
locally and uh you know andinternationally you know to
engage in those opportunitiesand I think uh many churches you
know provide them you knowthroughout our our region
awesome awesome John um anybodythat wants to keep up with you
(55:27):
and the uh incredible missionarywork that you're doing uh over
in Paris and France do you havesome ways for people to do that?
Yes they could um so a coupleways first we do leverage social
media our church is on Instagramand Facebook at EIC and that's a
manual international church EICReeve Gauche uh we have a
(55:52):
website that's eicparis.org andthen we have a a personal blog
that we open up about challengesof missionary life in the called
the Tates in Paris but that isthat's more personal family
ministry that my wife and Iwrite and then uh our church is
EIC Reeves Gauche EIC ReevGoshuh Instagram Paris and then EIC
(56:15):
Paris is dot org is the website.
SPEAKER_00 (56:18):
Awesome awesome you can also keep up with John's
writings every week because hestill after all these years uh
shares uh his gifting withMission Mississippi by providing
uh our weekly word which is a uhword of encouragement around uh
prayer and reconciliation andand continue and continued
growth in the unity that God hasestablished for us through
(56:39):
Christ and so anytime you get aMission Mississippi newsletter
and you see a weekly word it isbecause John Hugh Tate has
crafted that and so that'sanother way that you can keep up
with what John's doing inministry as well.
So man John brother I'm gratefulfor you uh glad that you're over
uh over uh here on this side ofthe water for a little while and
I'm praying uh rest andrelaxation and recovery for you
(57:02):
and I'll pray the Lord continuesto bless you richly man and the
work that you're doing in ParisFrance man.
SPEAKER_01 (57:09):
Thank you brother and thankful for you and your
leadership with MissionMississippi and have loved this
conversation and uh we'llcontinue talking but uh just
thankful for this ministry andand all it means both in this
state and and across the world.
SPEAKER_00 (57:23):
Amen blesses to you and to those that are listening
uh today again we want to thankyou guys feel free to like share
subscribe you can go to anypodcast app in order to find us
uh you can go tomissionmississippi.org in order
to find us and also feel free toshare uh with other uh other
friends and family members thispodcast this podcast episode but
(57:45):
just this podcast in general wewould love for you to get the
word out and spread it um as wenavigate through reconciliation
and all of its differentbranches uh including the
branches that show up in ParisFrance uh on behalf of my friend
John Hutate I'm Brian Crawfordsigning off saying God bless
thanks for joining LivingReconciled if you would like
more information on how you canbe a part of the ongoing work of
(58:08):
helping Christians learn how tolive in the reconciliation that
Jesus has already secured pleasevisit us online at
missionmississippi dot or g orcall us at six oh one three five
three six four seven seventhanks again for listening
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated
to giving our communitiespractical evidence of the gospel
message by helping Christianslearn how to live in the
reconciliation that Jesus hasalready secured for us by living
with grace across racial lines.
Hey, thanks so much for joiningus on episode 86 of Living
Reconciled.
(00:32):
I am your host, Brian Crawford,and my good friends, Nettie
Winters, Austin Hoyle,unfortunately can't be with us
this week.
But I do have another goodfriend that I can't wait for you
to hear from.
Before I get a chance tointroduce him to you, I do want
to give a quick shout out tosome good friends and sponsors
of this podcast.
(00:53):
Folks like Nissan, St.
Dominic's Hospital, Atmos EnergyRegents Foundation, Mississippi
College, Anderson UnitedMethodist Church, Grace Temple
Church, Mississippi, RealChristian Foundation, Brown
Missionary Baptist Church,Christian Life Church, Ms.
Doris Power, Robert Ward, andWinners.
Thank you so much for everythingthat you do.
It's because of what you do thatwe're able to do what we do as
(01:13):
an organization and as apodcast.
And today, what we're doing iswe're talking to an incredible
friend, missionary, uh pastor,believer, gentlemen by the name
of John Hugh Tate, who alsohappens to serve on the board of
Mission Mississippi.
John is again a pastor,believer, but he's also a
(01:35):
father, a husband, and a goodfriend of Mission Mississippi.
John, how are you doing,brother?
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
I'm great, Brian.
Thank you for that introduction,and uh it's an honor to be on
here again.
So uh appreciate you uh havingme for the conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:50):
Absolutely, man.
Absolutely.
I would love to just start ourtime, John, because um, as you
alluded to, we have we have hadyou on one time to talk a little
bit about uh your work in thefield uh in the in the very
hard, hard territory of Paris,France.
Um but I would love for you togive us an update, man.
(02:11):
Talk to us a little bit aboutwhat's been going on in and I
said hard with sarcasm, ofcourse, but talk to me about
what's been going on in Paris,France these days, man.
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Yeah, I heard that that hard, hard, uh maybe it was
even the third hard uh on onParis, France.
And and and I hear you, brother.
I know what you're saying, andand some others do as well.
Yeah, let's start there.
Paris is uh it's a wonderful,uh, beautiful, you know,
cultural, uh global city thatuh, you know, that God loves.
(02:41):
And uh they're uh you know, so II don't claim to be like uh uh
Jonah in Nineveh.
Uh we enjoy being there, youknow, the uh you know, as the
end of Jonah, you know, allthose people that God loves.
I'm thinking about the 11million uh people in Mexico
Paris.
That has been quite a change forthis uh this self-proclaimed
(03:03):
country boy from New Albany,Mississippi.
And uh and then 17 years ofministry in Jackson, so 11
million.
I tell folk, they say what's thebiggest uh change or biggest
difference?
You know, is it the language?
I was like, man, it's uh it'sriding metros and buses and you
know taking an hour to geteverywhere.
That is that's been asignificant difference.
(03:23):
But it is a beautiful city.
It uh you know, it is endowedwith with art and architecture
and you know literature, and youknow, I think it is the most
visited city in the world.
It seems like it living there,all those that come through.
But uh we we do have a love forFrance and Paris and have grown
that living there now.
(03:43):
We're in year five, so it's beena blessing to be there.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Wow, John, that's a that's that's a really long
time, man.
It's it's it's blown by.
It's absolutely blown by, man.
Um tell tell me a little bit.
You talked a little bit about uhwhat you what you really, really
appreciate and love about Paris.
Why don't we tease that out alittle more if you don't mind?
Is there some things that justreally kind of resonate with you
deeply about about the uh theexperience that you've had over
(04:07):
the last five years in Paris?
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
Yeah, I mean, one thing people ask me about about
France or the French people oror or Parisians.
The first word that always comesto mind, and I say this as a
huge compliment, they're veryprecise people.
Uh they're precise in theirarchitecture, in their art, in
their language, and they valuethese little things that that
I've I felt like I even take forgranted.
(04:33):
I mean, even in uh I mean thereare little differences in the
cars.
I mean, we own a French car.
There are differences in uh uhjust using of space.
You know, France is about thesize of Texas, and there's still
a lot of people, and so you haveto be creative in how you use
space.
It's a very dense city as well,so you know that that
(04:53):
contributes to it.
But I mean, past that, I lovehistory, and so I mean, I'm just
in the center of some globalhistory and World War II
history.
I mean, the square where ourchurch meets uh was the
underground headquarters of theFrench resistance in uh World
War II, um, which is a really uhI mean, loving history and you
(05:17):
know, spy craft, things likethat, that's cool.
On that square, there's also astatue of a lion, and the uh the
same gentleman who sculpted thestatue of liberty, uh sculpted
that lion, and they actuallyhave the uh the head of the
line, and this is what I mean byprecise.
They have the head of the lineuh directed towards the Statue
of Liberty.
Just little things like thatthat people uh No, they don't
(05:39):
take it for granted, they thinkabout that.
And I think that's uh I thinkthat's just a God-given gift uh
to not overlook anything.
So yeah, we've really enjoyed uhyou know learning more about the
culture and and thoseintricacies of uh of the life in
Paris.
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
Yeah, you mentioned it being, you know, uh you you
know you use the words that thatFrance, the the French are
precise people, right?
Um would you say that isreflected in the agri, not the
agriculture, but thearchitecture and the arts, or
would you just say generally,just overall uh Parisians are
(06:17):
precise people?
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
I mean, I would say I would say overall, because I
think it's a compliment.
I mean, just in the way, youknow, the way they love food.
I mean, brother, you gotta yougotta go over there and uh and
eat and eat well, but the waythey do their courses, the way
they set the table, they don'tyou know take anything for
granted.
And again, I can be uh, youknow, I I man, I don't know how
(06:42):
you are.
I mean, I I I love food.
I wouldn't call myself a foodie.
I mean, sometimes I see food asas fuel, and you know, I hope
there's no uh French or foodieslistening to that because they
would be like, oh my goodness.
But yeah, they would uh manythat I know.
I mean, they they they enjoyfood to agriculture.
Um it's a very, you know, I havea good French friend, actually
(07:03):
he's half French, half British,but he loves French history, and
he said uh, and this sounds likea true Mississippian as well,
but he said to understandFrance, you have to understand
they're people of the land, thatit began as a a peasant country,
peasant not negative, but peoplethat worked the land, that
tilled the land, and uh, youknow, from you know the grapes
(07:25):
that produce the wine to theagriculture, so that there's
that precision.
But then if you go into Paris,and you know, if you look at the
Arc de Triomphe, you know, whichis there, and and you do look at
the architecture and you knowhow precise it is to sculpt you
know some of all these uhcharacters and faces and things,
it's it's amazing.
It's an amazing gift uh that Godhas given that uh not not simply
(07:50):
that we should recognize byseeing it, but just thinking
about you know the time andeffort that was uh put into
creating it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's incredible, man.
Um what turning turning a littlebit towards like you we you
know, the things that you'rereally, really enjoying about
it.
What what are what are some ofthe things that you still find
challenging in terms ofadjusting?
SPEAKER_01 (08:12):
Well, there's so many challenges too, and and you
know, um people ask, you know,how I how I do like it.
I always try to pause because Idon't want to just give a uh a
rose-colored uh whimps of it.
And I don't also, you know, youcan't say it's just all
difficult or challenges, becauseyou know, they're they're
blessings too.
Sure.
Um I do think, you know, it'sit's very urban and gritty.
(08:36):
Um I've I've never lived in NewYork, uh, but Paris is very
dense.
Um the square mileage of Parisproper, the city limits, is
smaller than the square mileageof Jackson, Mississippi.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
And and you've got three to four million people in
the city limits.
Wow.
And then you've got anadditional seven, six to seven
outside.
So you you know, it's justdensely packed.
I mean, there we've had missionteams come over from churches in
Mississippi, and and that'ssomething not just me, but but
everybody underestimates.
You just don't think about Parisas a place that you're just
(09:11):
packed in a metro, you know,with a lot of Africans and
Asians and Europeans, and youknow, just shoulder to shoulder
and and and holding on.
But that's that's part of lifein that city in that that urban
context.
Um and I think to do ministrythere, you need to at least be
prepared for that and adjust tothat.
(09:32):
It's a very, very urban, grittycity.
You know, that's one thing.
I think the uh then I will behonest too.
I mean, this is uh, you know,we're Christians, we're we're
brothers in Christ, you know,but uh but France, Paris,
Europe, I mean, it's a verynon-Christian context.
And uh that is something we cantalk more about that, but I say
(09:53):
it over and over again, from afamily perspective, from raising
kids to uh to just a lifeperspective, living in a
neighborhood.
I took for granted living inJackson, the the Christian, you
know, the Christian culturalBible belt context, which
doesn't mean everybody'sChristian there, but you also
(10:14):
know there's an underpinning ofChristian values that generally
speaking, most families go tochurch.
That doesn't mean they'reChristian.
We know that most kids, youknow, are raised with some
foundations that we just don'thave where where we live now.
One of our son, we have threeboys, thanks for for mentioning
(10:34):
that, and and my wife Linda.
But one of our sons they go to aa French public school, but with
uh some English classes as well.
It's bi it's bi-cultural,bilingual.
But one of them said, you know,it's just very difficult being a
Christian in a non-Christiancontext.
And so raising kids in that ishas been a challenge.
(10:56):
And uh it's been a huge uhdisparity coming from from
Jackson, Mississippi that we'vehad to adjust to.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
Yeah, when you talk about the challenge of being in
a predominantly unchurchedcontext, um what are some of the
opportunities in terms of youknow, lessons learned?
Um, you know, some of the, youknow, at least for for me when I
(11:24):
think about opportunities, oneof the first things I think
about is kind of how we can insome ways our overly church
context can can in some waysdrag us down in a sense because
we we we tie we we tend to seeit almost as an entitlement, if
that makes sense, versusactually versus actually
(11:44):
cherishing the experience ofbeing able to worship together,
cherishing the experience ofbeing able to just have places
and spaces where you can sit andtalk about the Bible openly and
and and and that entitlement cankind of sour us on in in some
ways in terms of our Christianexperience.
So are there some opportunitiesin terms of being, you know,
(12:05):
being in a place whereChristianity is not as broad and
not as widespread?
Um are there some are there someopportunities that come out of
that?
SPEAKER_01 (12:14):
For sure.
And I love how you use the theword the you know opportunity,
that phrase opportunity.
I would say, you know, what itinitially comes to mind, the
opportunity, each individual, wehave to go deep intentionally
and we have to go outstrategically.
Meaning, like we can't just takeit for granted that entitlement
(12:36):
that you talked about of what webelieve and why we believe what
we believe.
We have to be intentional to godeep within ourselves and even
ask ourselves, do I reallybelieve what I say I believe?
You know, or is it just uh is itjust something I've learned and
even learned to communicate?
But so you know, we we try todisciple our kids.
(12:57):
I mean, I try to, you know, fromdevotions every morning before
they go, you know, intentionallytalk, but to go deep and you
know, do you believe what weprofess?
And then to go outstrategically, meaning really be
thoughtful in how we communicateand when we communicate with
(13:17):
others.
One of our sons too went on acamping trip uh this past summer
with some friends, and you know,he pr they were sitting around
the campfire and he prayedbefore he uh before they eat
they ate just on his own.
And and one of his friends, agood friend, is a a
self-proclaimed describedatheist.
(13:38):
You know, just now I I don't,you know, I I personally don't
think they're really anyatheists.
We all worship something, but uhI mean that's uh you know that's
a cultural word that's used,like, you know, I'm an atheist,
you know.
I mean, how can you believethis?
And and our son was uh, youknow, we're proud of him.
He described it, we weren'tthere, but uh, you know, he
didn't react.
Uh, you know, he took it in.
(13:59):
Still a friend, still a goodfriend, and he was able to uh
you know give a defense for whathe believed and also to uh you
know to share and be open andlisten.
So you have to strategically goout.
Like he's not going to risk thatguy is not going to receive, you
know, if he just uh you knowsaid, well, you need to believe
(14:20):
what I believe, or um, you know,this is the way, the truth, and
the life, and you know, you'reyou're not there yet, and that
you know for you, pity.
You know, that's not gonna Imean we know that doesn't work,
but sometimes even a we can havea communication strategy or
posture that might even speakthat without us knowing it.
(14:42):
So he's got to be strategic inhow he uh how he talks and and
when he does so.
SPEAKER_00 (14:48):
Yeah, you know, it's it's funny that you mentioned
that, John, because Iimmediately um just start
thinking about the reality thatthat's in some ways that's our
culture increasingly in theStates.
But I don't know if the churchhas pivoted to adjust to that,
you know, and so and so we stillare treating the culture or
we're still engaging the culturelike uh like the Christian ethic
(15:12):
is just understood and assumed,and that we can just kind of
show up, spill, spill, spill outalmost like a track in human
form, and and can do that minusrelational engagement,
relational evangelism, you know,befriending and listening and
(15:32):
and and and cultivating trustand and all of that.
But I think our culture verymuch is shifting in that
direction where uh where weshould be pivoting in a sense in
the same way that a missionaryin Paris, France would be uh
pivoting.
I mean, is that does that makesense at all to you?
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
100% uh makes sense and agree.
You know, it and as you'retalking, I think the Bible, you
know, it it presents a verynuanced view to me at least on
mission strategy uh individuallyand as the church.
You know, I I love Jeremiah 29,as many do.
I mean, there's the famousverse, you know, I know the
(16:09):
plans I have for you to give youa hope and a future.
But you know, that's written ina context to uh as a letter that
God sent to his people who werein a foreign culture, a foreign
language, foreign context.
Yes.
You know, and what did he saydo?
Uh well, really that you knowthere were two there were two uh
options initially presented.
(16:30):
One was to fully acclimate, asthe Babylonians wanted God's
people to do.
Um, and like the Babylonianstried to get Daniel and his
friends to um you know to haveall the education and eat all
the food there, and they said,no, we're not gonna fully
acclimate.
But then the uh you know Godsaid, Don't follow the prophets
who are saying just totallyisolate amongst yourselves and
(16:52):
and be tribal.
And so the nuanced view is wedon't fully acclimate to the
culture, and yet we don't fullyisolate ourselves as the church
and Christians either.
And uh, you know, part of thatis being in, not of, and you
know, it can be a cliche, but alot of cliches are great truths,
and uh it is very nuanced.
Uh, and we're trying to do thattoo as a family.
(17:13):
You know, we um our kids, again,they're in a French public
school, um, you know, which ischallenging, but also we just
believe that we are called to belight and be out there and be
right in the middle of the city,of the cities, uh, in and and
that speaks, you're right,exactly, to American culture,
increasingly differentlanguages, even, uh, and
(17:36):
different races, and uh the mixof uh of different others and um
you know to be right in andamongst them.
And and we shouldn't, we we havenothing to fear.
But uh and I say that, I mean,but we can have anxieties and
fears always around people ofdifferent beliefs, and you know,
(17:57):
are we gonna say the rightthing, uh, communicate the right
way?
And we need to that's why we Ithink we also have to be
intentionally go deep um daily,you know, in God's word, in
prayer, and in Christiancommunity.
But Christian community thatalso says we're not just gonna
isolate, but we're not gonnafully acclimate either.
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Right, right.
And and it's and it I think umeven as I'm hearing you this,
you know, discuss thisexperience, what I'm hearing is
the reality that this isprobably going to anchor anchor
your faith in ways that thatmaybe even being surrounded in a
(18:37):
culture of Christian ethics andChristian faith, professing uh
Christians may not necessarily,you may not have the opportunity
to have it anchored as sure.
Because you're gonna there'slike trials and testing and and
there's so many differentdifferences of opinion and so
many different ideas that arebeing tossed your way to kind of
counter, you know, the faith.
(18:59):
And so I I would imagine thatthe faith is very much tried and
tested in in a space like Paris.
Is that true or what what whatwhat do you think about that?
Would it put would you push backon that a little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (19:13):
I know, I know mine has been tried and tested.
And you know, I mean, speakinghonestly and talking to other
missionaries, I mean, we aremissionaries uh technically, but
uh I mean spiritual warfare isreal, it's not uh hokey pokey.
Um I think C.S.
Lewis said it, you know, the thedanger about spiritual warfare
(19:36):
is twofold is one, you know,everything is spiritual warfare,
and then second, nothing isspiritual warfare.
And it's neither of no of those,but it is uh it you know, it so
it's real.
I think whenever you know you'reexpanding the kingdom of Christ
personally, collectively, youknow, there's opposition, and
uh, and and it will test andreveal your blind spots, and so
(20:01):
that will certainly occur.
Also, you know, I mentioned 11million people, but you and I
come from a context in inMississippi where uh you know
there's a plethora of churches.
There's still a need forchurches, but uh we we live in
very uh and or I was grew up andhave lived in in very thick you
(20:24):
know, thick uh community, bothculture and neighborhoods.
You know, it's very thick, andit's like a fabric that it's
it's so thick, if you pull outone strand, the community like
feels it, you experience it, anduh, and that's great for the
Christian community too.
You know, it's just real thick,and and uh one of the benefits
(20:44):
uh of the church and what thechurch should be.
So we're tested by it's ourchurch is very fragmented,
meaning like you know, there arevery few churches in the midst
of all those people.
So, you know, we live in anapartment complex where I don't
know any other Christians inthat apartment complex.
And yet, you know, I lived 17years in a neighborhood and
(21:08):
street, and I think all myneighbors would have professed
to be Christian, uh, you know,in some form or fashion.
And, you know, so it's very uhit's very fragmented.
Again, I talked about thechallenge of of kids, and you
know, you don't know their thevalue set or the worldview of
the friends that they are atschool with.
(21:29):
So that is uh it folks more thatwe have to disciple in the home
and not take that for grantedeither.
Uh we have to grow deep in thechurch community that we have or
that we're building.
And uh, you know, I do thinklike you and I, I mean, I I know
I I'm not gonna speak for you,but I think being here and being
(21:49):
from families here, you know,it's a blessing to be from that
thick community.
And I think it's it's like anexternal gift God gives us that
we can also give it to otherswherever we go.
So we like we know what richcommunity is like, we know that
depth and we can uh buildconnections.
And honestly, I think that'shelped us to start and grow uh
(22:11):
the church there in Paris.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Speaking of which, talk to us a little bit about
where the church is and at thismoment in its life, um, what
what is the demographic makeupand what are some of the uh
successes as well as some of thetrials that you've experienced
in church planning in France?
SPEAKER_01 (22:31):
Yeah, so I'm a pastor with Emanual
International Church.
So Manual International Churchwas first founded in 1963.
Uh so it's international,meaning English speaking.
And so I'm a pastor there, butthey had a vision about seven
years ago to uh to plant morechurches and to grow a family of
(22:52):
churches under the sameassociation uh around Paris.
So I so we moved there to bothuh be a pastor at EIC, we call
it, and then plant a new churchin a different area of Paris.
We're in the southern part ofParis on the left bank, which in
French is called Reve Gauche.
(23:13):
There's my French for you.
But uh Reve Gauche, and so we weplanted and started worship
Easter of 23.
So uh, you know, God has allowedus to um to worship every Sunday
now for two and a half years uhthere on the left bank of Paris,
uh Reve Gauche.
And uh we've grown, you know,we've grown a stable community
(23:35):
that's uh that's established.
SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
What's what's your what's your current um your I
guess your attendance on on anyLord's Day right now, John?
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
So we've we've averaged about uh we've averaged
about 65 people.
SPEAKER_00 (23:49):
And then is that substantial in a in a in a
Paris-France context?
SPEAKER_01 (23:55):
Yeah, I mean I I think the Bible believing gospel
preaching, you know, the largerchurches in Paris, the largest
church is, you know, Protestantum Bible-believing gospel
preaching, it's about 200people.
Yeah.
So uh that's the large so we'veuh you know, I mean, our highest
attendance Sunday I would say isabout 85, 90.
Wow, wow.
And then uh a low Sunday wouldbe about 50.
(24:18):
So we've you know, I think we'vedeveloped a a good uh a good
community, a good church withinthat context.
And I remember some I remember aFrench pastor, he was well, he
was half French, half American.
SPEAKER_02 (24:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:32):
When we were thinking about moving over, and
he said, Man, you've got to beused to the the context here and
the numbers game.
I was like, Oh, I'm fine, youknow.
I'd I'd be fine with 70 people,and he's like, Well, would you
be fine with seven?
Because that's and I was like, Idon't but he he actually made
that statement.
And and yes, I know we say wheretwo or more is gathered, but uh
you know, there are there are Iknow churches that regular meet
(24:56):
with 20 or 30 people.
Um but look, here's here's theoverall numbers, yeah, uh Brian.
You know, Paris Metro area, 11million people.
And I mean I know for a factthere there's definitely less
than 10,000 people in, again,Protestant, uh gospel believing,
(25:17):
uh, Bible preaching uh churches,maybe less than 5,000.
So if you just do those numbers,that's the you know, 10,000 is
very uh you know, that that'sgiving some grace.
5,000 might be a conservativenumber, but I'm literally
thinking about 10 to 20 churcheswith less than 200 people.
And so that's what you uh that'swhat you have.
(25:38):
Wow.
Wow, wow.
Yeah, I mean that that that's athat's a whole different
experience.
Yeah, I'm not just throwing thenumbers around.
I mean, I've asked people like,could is that fair to state
publicly, oh yeah, you know,definitely less than 10,000 you
know, in uh in a context of 11million.
So those are that's indicative.
Um and I well I think and thatand Paris probably has the most
(26:00):
you know gospel activity, churchplanting activity than the rest
of uh France.
I mean, there I think there's alot of I mean, we live in an
exciting time.
There's more church planting,there's more gospel ministry,
there's more renewal, butthere's still a lot to do, you
know, in in generations to come.
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:19):
So that's why go ahead.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
No, I was just about to ask.
Um really and and and and let melet me pause.
Let me sit on that first.
You you go ahead and finish yourthought.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
Well, just meaning that uh, you know, I think
that's one of the reasons wefelt motivated to go.
So like we're Mississippiresidents, we're always gonna
have a home base here.
Uh, I definitely feel convictedto help other people go, whether
that's teams or individuals.
But one of the big reasons wewent is uh a larger vision for a
(26:52):
global city that has, you know,that's a crossroads of Europe,
Asia, Africa, you know, allthese visitors.
But to to grow a churchplanting, you know, family there
and to plant other churches.
So that being said, I'm readyfor you you to come, man.
And who knows, you may getrecruited, and we'll see.
(27:12):
But uh, you know, there's justthere's a lot, there, there's a
lot of great ministry that canbe uh can be done and and
churches that need to beplanted.
Yeah.
So we didn't just go to plantone church.
I mean, be we came to be part ofthis family of church plants and
new churches that we hope todevelop.
And and who knows, maybe beyondFrance, but definitely build a
(27:32):
pipeline in Mississippi and getchurches and individuals
connected and involved.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
That's phenomenal, man.
That's phenomenal.
Um I'm I'm I'm if you don'tmind, I'm gonna pivot a little
bit and talk a little bit aboutthe way the last time we had had
our pie, we talked a little bitabout um division and how it
uniquely manifests itself inFrance.
(27:58):
Really curious just to kind ofpick back up on that and kind of
go go down that line, go downthat street again.
And just as you've spent moretime in France, you know, how do
you see uh divisions in a in aglobal city, like you mentioned,
with all of these differentpeople and cultures, you know,
(28:19):
coming together and and and insome ways fusing together, in
some ways colliding together.
Um how do you see division andand and then the challenge of
unity uniquely manifestingitself in a place like France?
SPEAKER_01 (29:16):
Yeah, I mean it's a wonderful question, and I think
it's a question we need to keepgoing deep into and that that
mission Mississippi you knowpresses us into.
So you know, whether it's it'sMississippi or Paris, France,
you know, uh that that worddivision.
Yeah.
I think in that culture, umwhich is also reflective of I
(29:43):
think any culture, you have youryour nationals, uh your home
base, your home tribe, uh, youknow, people that were born and
raised there.
And there's always there'salways the potential for
division with that other person.
That's what I'd call.
You know, that other personwho's who's different, who's
(30:06):
coming in.
I mean, the Bible speaks of itas the alien, you know, or the
immigrant we might use, uh, butalso the outsider.
And then you take that from ayou know, from a national
perspective and uh a policyperspective to to use that word
(30:26):
of uh of immigration.
It's a it's a really big deal inFrance in the sense of open
borders, like many Europeancountries.
So I mean, there are you knowthere's their their
neighborhoods in Paris or theirenclaves outside of Paris.
And I've literally been in themand I've thought, you know, this
(30:47):
is, you know, arguably moresimilar to like Tunisia.
Okay.
And and so my point being isthat you've got an influx, okay.
And so you know that is creatingthat that's that's creating a
sense of, you know, are we beingwho we are as a culture, as a
(31:09):
nation, as French people.
I'm not French, but I mean I'man immigrant too.
You know, I just happen to be aWesterner more.
Yeah.
And uh and so we can get intothat as an American too, but I'm
an immigrant as well.
Some are much more welcoming tous, you know, than others.
But it's definitely given me asense of being the the outsider
(31:32):
you know coming into a culturewanting to be embraced.
I mean wanting to make makefriends, make relationships,
have good neighbors.
SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
And yeah, I'd say there's stark division, but you
see it worldwide because of uhyou know whether you call it
globalization or open borders umyou know and how do we you know
some people would say how do wemitigate this how do we stop
this some might say um you knowthat debate between the national
(32:02):
and the and the other is um Ithink it's a global conversation
that uh different countries areaddressing in different ways and
and obviously uh you know it'san issue here too as Americans I
would say um I mean also just tobring it back to a Christian
perspective you know I mean wehave the answer not only in
(32:24):
Christ but in the family ofChrist you know being brothers
and sisters in Christ and thatuh runs across all languages all
races all cultures and I thinkthe more we can live that out
you know both in our both to ourneighbors and to the nations
because Jesus specifically callsus to both neighbors and nations
(32:47):
literally then uh you know wecan show I mean there is a you
know there's a better waythere's a non-tribal way there's
a um uh you know that that wecan connect and embrace uh other
people yeah yeah there's anon-tribal way and that
non-tribal way do you see it asmanifesting itself in a
(33:11):
prominent way in in France or doyou see the tribalism as a as a
you know as a just like you knowas it's reflected in the States
right in the in the US do yousee that kind of tribalism and
that kind of intensity showingitself in in France well I mean
I I honestly I see moresimilarities and that's uh again
(33:35):
on so I'm we're on year five soit's not like we've lived there
20 years but it's not like ourfirst year and yeah you know the
challenges that I think uh someof some of which we see in in
this country um you could easilysay you know are seen there too.
SPEAKER_01 (33:54):
Meaning like you have people born and raised in
France and then you know youhave others coming from
different cultures and contextsthat are um you know that you
know it's a socialist country aswell which is very different so
that immediately receive freehealth care.
I mean that's a that's a stateof the society that's a that's a
law there that immediately canset up shop that immediately
(34:17):
could get work.
So less barriers there thanhere.
And uh and so you know you haveand then you have a
non-Christian environment.
So you people aren't even youknow it's it's not even a a
framework of like how should weact towards the outsider as
Christians.
Right.
Are you hearing what I'm saying?
Right so if you don't evenabsolutely not even not even if
(34:38):
people mean it here they atleast sometimes say it or at
least want it to be said so theycan you know even look the
Christian part.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (34:48):
There's still some social capital.
I mean even with all of theerosion there's still some
social capital in you know kindof professing uh a position of
faith in the west uh in thestates in the states yes exactly
so there's not that there at alland yeah I mean I I know it's
not a political conversation butall conversations are political
(35:11):
because politics just aboutpeople but yeah that is a that
is a huge issue for France andthe influx of foreigners coming
in with the uh those that have astrong national identity and and
how that how that's gonna beplayed out in the next five to
ten years.
When you when you think about uhdivision um you know we're faced
(35:36):
we're faced with a lot of ithere in the West and so we are
uh man we're increasinglydivided um at least more than
more than I've seen in my in mylifetime of course you know of
course you can go back furtherand and from 1619 forward and
and you know the American storyis a story of tensions and
(35:56):
divisions and and wrestlingrights and wrestling rights back
and then wrestling them away andback and forth like a seesaw but
this is a very unique moment umfor for the for the US how does
France when you're around uhcitizens of France and the
(36:17):
people of Paris how do theyperceive the state of our
country right now well you knowBrian in in one sense in one
sense you know from World War IIon really um or really a couple
(36:42):
you know several years afterWorld War II I think there has
been uh a sense that you knowAmericans are you know we we
isolate ourselves you know we'renot as cultured we are not as uh
interested in the world um youknow we're more interested in in
what's you know between the twooceans and I think there's some
(37:04):
truth to that and I think that'svery fair.
SPEAKER_01 (37:06):
Uh it's very fair for a person to be concerned
with uh you know his family andhis city and you know we were
both you and I I mean yes theAmerican story but God planted
us in a country you know that isuh that is separated by two
oceans from the rest of theworld and so we're just
(37:27):
naturally more more isolated.
SPEAKER_00 (37:29):
I also think that uh I'm a history buff so I I'm
tying it to history I also thinkFrance and some European
countries you know no no onelikes losing power let's say
that no individual no countryand for generations European
countries were the most powerfulon earth uh from you know both
(37:50):
especially France the UK but youcan go further back Spain and
even Portugal but uh you know tolose and and this is fair too
you know you're to not be youknow at the epicenter of the
most powerful countries of theworld uh I think uh I think envy
is a real thing and so I mean Iwould I would come out and say I
mean I think there is uh some ofthat as well um you know no one
(38:14):
no one really admits to that butI mean I feel like I could state
that as uh you know countriescan envy one another and I think
America can be the envy ofothers now past that I also
think that uh you know some ofthe the policies that uh that
have gone on over you know thelast several years uh you know
(38:36):
people identify um peopleidentify like the current
administration and are very somewould say oh I wish we had that
here okay and then others willsay you know I can't believe
that's happened this ishappening this is so crazy this
is so uh you know this is notright so I've heard both and
(38:56):
it's really been kind of a 50-50type split but uh what interests
me the most is more and morepeople there are saying you know
I wish we had and this is beingsaid a make Europe great again
you know here's here's thatthat's that's happening yeah
here's what I'm hearing John isthat it's not a monolith just
like it's not a monolith hereyou know it's all sorts of
(39:19):
diversity of thought and andideas and and you got you got
you got you know center leftcenter right you know far left
far right it's that it's thatyou know and I think the same
mistake that that that we makein the in in the states right
where or that people make aboutthe states in terms of kind of
(39:39):
lumping everybody in this bigbucket where everybody's
thinking alike and and seeingthe world alike it's easy for us
in the states to make those sameassumptions about you know other
other nations other countriesand and not see the diversity of
thoughts and opinions andsentiments as it relates to like
(40:01):
you said as it relates to theplurality of uh of of the people
that are coming in some peoplehave one ideal about it other
people have a totally differentideal about it let me give you a
parallel story um so you know Ileft uh I came back to visit the
U.S.
SPEAKER_01 (40:17):
a week ago but uh rewind I remember I was in
France I was at a study abroadprogram in 1995 and so you had
the same kind of mentalityphilosophy towards America as as
in the majority might say ohyeah you know they're isolated
they're not as cultured as weare you know that that type of
(40:39):
uh statement but then in 1995 uhthe US came in and ended the
Bosnian conflict in the DaytonAccords and I just remember that
happened November of 1995 and Iwas there and I remember several
people said you know you know wesay this these things or we
think about America but look atyou you must be so proud to be
(41:02):
an American your country justended this conflict that's been
going on for a decade here andit made me very proud I mean I
know pride you know as aChristian C.S.
Lewis is but it did make me veryproud to be an American fast
forward to a week ago ten daysago I almost heard the same
thing with the uh with the thepeace accords in Israel I mean I
(41:26):
mean literally the same thingjust different place in saying
you know we can say these thingsuh you know about this your
country or even about thisadministration but you must be
so proud that you came in andit's over and it's done.
And so uh I just think that'sthat's very significant um but
it also plays to your point youknow there are a lot of people
(41:47):
that can say different thingsbut it's uh it's not a this is
not a racial statement it's nota black or white thing it
meaning like it's it is nuancedyou know it's it's gray in terms
of uh opinions people have youknow about Americans I've heard
people say you know I can'tbelieve President Trump is doing
this this and this but thenthey'll say but you know what we
(42:09):
really should be paying more toNATO and we should be protecting
ourselves more which isinteresting it's like that's the
policy that's trying to be uhput forth but just because the
personality you're like I'm notgoing you know you know
personalities and and thepolicies are different but uh
they might believe the same butuh they might not be for the
(42:32):
person who's speaking it's ayeah we we we've adopted a a
very you know team basedapproach to all all of our
political um pol politicalmusings right it's it's like hey
I John made a good point but Ican't acknowledge that John made
(42:52):
a good point because he's onhe's with those other guys you
know yeah it's and it's and itsounds like that might be
permeating even even you know uhoverseas across the pond as well
yeah I mean emotion definitelyhas its place yeah you know but
sometimes it doesn't and if youyou can really discipline
yourself to take emotion out ofit listen to people I mean or
(43:15):
take prejudice out of it I meanprejudice is a real thing and
just take your take the inherentprejudices take perhaps learn
prejudices out whether you're aEuropean or you're French or
American or Southerner put it onthe shelf and try to listen and
uh that's that's a realdiscipline and uh I think we
(43:38):
need to promote that more Ithink um we need to stress that
more.
SPEAKER_00 (43:43):
Yeah I mean to be honest with you it's a m it's
almost kind of like a muscle uhyou know in terms of the way you
think about uh bias and enteringinto conversations with with you
know we all carry bias we we andwe won't escape that because
that's just kind of part of thethe fallen human condition is
that we we we see things with aslant but but I but I think I
(44:04):
think the more time we spend indiverse spaces and places and
the more variety we allowourselves to uh engage in terms
of people from different walksof life I think in some ways
while it cannot completelyremove our bias it does help us
in terms of being able to uhmanage it better and and not
(44:28):
just and not just simply fallinto that space that we fall
into when we when we are whenwhen we're exclusively team
based you know and we are likehey yeah if if I I mean I you
you talk you tell me if that'sif that's something that
resonates with you from yourfrom your vantage point where
you are in France.
SPEAKER_01 (44:47):
It does.
I mean let me give you anexample of this um you know I
mean we're all I mean I I saywe're all I mean I was our
family was I mean many I meanreally impacted by Charlie
Kirk's assassination I'llprofess I didn't follow him a
lot sure really before that umand I and I would say
unfortunately I would have likedto have known more I mean it you
(45:09):
know but you hear the noise somuch so then after the
assassination I startedlistening more to the debate uh
being interested well in Franceuh we came across they were
having a a memorial for him uhsome American uh section you
know group and it was going tobe at the statue of uh Lafayette
(45:32):
uh in Paris Lafayette you knowwas uh aide de camp uh for
George Washington and and foughtin the American Revolution and
you know initially I saw I saw Isaw Hamilton so I know all I
know all the six you know allabout that but uh you know at
first I was like at first I waslike oh I'd like to go to this
(45:54):
and then I was like well shouldI go like how is that gonna be
perceived by people in my churchcommunity or how is that maybe I
shouldn't and then I was like noI'm just gonna go it's but I
want to admit like I had thatyou know that thought that pause
of like well because you knowhow people will react but at the
end of the day he's like anAmerican it was a horrible
(46:16):
incident and I just wanted topay my respects and there was an
opportunity and it was you knowit was not political honestly it
was not that religious I mean wesang amazing grace you know we
had the Lord's prayer but theytried to make it uh you know
they really toned it down but Iwanted to go and there were
about 300 people there aroundthe statue and there was a
(46:38):
program and I was glad to go touh you know to to try to pay
respects and um you know that'syou know in some ways we we got
to get past well what peoplethink you know and move past
positions to just you know humanbeings you know our our shared
common common humanity and um Iand yeah you know they're
(47:01):
they're definitely definitelydifferent perspectives but uh I
mean some of the things I meansome of the things he stood for
uh I think are are wonderful inthe sense of and I'll I'll say
you know in terms of and I'veI've listened uh open debate uh
that can be uh you know in aconversation uh that that
(47:21):
attempts to be kind listeningand I've listened to other you
know podcasts both for andagainst since then but that has
been a common denominator thatum debate is not a bad word you
know and uh and that we can havediffering opinions and share
them and disagree and and evenengage in um in kind debate.
SPEAKER_00 (47:45):
Yeah I mean I've seen I've seen and heard uh
incredible incredible thoughtsyou know like you said both both
for uh for and against and andwhat and what what it boils down
to is that you know he was anincredibly complex person
personality uh and and there'sand and the and I think one of
(48:07):
the big challenges we're facedwith right now is that our
information streams um don'tallow us to really veer into
that complexity.
It keeps us in one space or theother and so it keeps us either
you know seeing seeing the senseof you know seeing and hearing
the things that would cause usto you know uh have great pause
(48:29):
and great reservation about hislegacy or seeing and hearing the
things that would cause us tovenerate you know and and treat
his legacy as almost is near isnear spotless you know and and
and there's like there's like alot of there's a lot of gray in
the middle of that but our ourinformation streams are so
vastly different that we neverget a chance to veer to the gray
(48:53):
and it's to our detriment it'sto our division that that that
that transpires and and you knowto your point about the debate
piece I think that's one of thethings that I'm most alarmed by
right now in this culturalmoment is that we don't have the
capacity like we should andwe're losing the appetite for
healthy dialogue for healthy youknow uh not even necessarily
(49:17):
debate but discourse you know umyou know as image bearers being
able to agree to disagree beingable to acknowledge when hey you
went and concede when you make apoint you know because it goes
all the way back to what we werejust talking about earlier.
We've gotten to the point wherewe can't even concede with one
another because if I concede,what is my team going to think?
You know what are what are theguys that are behind me that are
(49:38):
rooting rooting me on what arethey going to think if I concede
that point?
I can't concede that point toJohn I got to just you know I
just got to bear down and justact like John didn't make a
great point when he made a greatpoint.
And I just feel like more thananything if we can't learn how
to have dialogue and discourseand and with humility where we
acknowledge one another whetherwe make a good point or not I
(50:03):
just feel I just feel like thethe the journey to unity becomes
that much more difficult.
SPEAKER_01 (50:10):
Yeah I think I think too often and and look we can
think this now I mean in in anypublic discourse that is you
know promoted out now in theworld I mean we always think
what are the optics of this yeseverybody's thinking that what
are the optics of this yes uhwhether it's uh whether it's the
truth or not maybe whether it'sreally what we believe and I
(50:33):
think that's a contribution fromyou know you don't blame
everything on social media butbut at the same time you're
thinking so much you know how amI perceived in this I mean it's
training us to think everythingabout how and that's why you
know authenticity is sorefreshing when you really see
it.
You know like you know you cantell like they just they just
don't care.
(50:54):
They were authentic in themoment and uh and weren't
weren't as concerned.
SPEAKER_00 (50:59):
So um yeah you know going back to uh uh the debate
piece too the the other thing isand I don't know where this come
from you can't blame socialmedia on this but making the
other the other is not the enemyeither you know right I mean we
we worship we haven't even goneinto this but you know we
(51:20):
worship at a cafe or brasserieyou know owned by Muslims from
Algeria very different in injust about every way and and we
do love them and they do love usand we have built a relationship
um that that's really abeautiful thing you know across
(51:41):
uh not just me I'm talking aboutme my family but many in our our
church family as well and thatthey would defend us and they
don't speak English so wecommunicate in French together
but uh yeah I mean I've learneda lot from them as well and uh
the other does not mean theother is not a bad thing the
(52:02):
other is is definitely not theenemy and so um you know they
may they may have a lot ofaspects and um and attributes
that you can look at yeah johnjohn I think I think that what
you just articulated there tiesvery much back to this sentiment
(52:26):
that you had articulated earlierin terms of by being in a space
where the Christianity is notthe uh all-encompassing you know
force right but but you are in aspace with diverse people
diverse groups from differentwalks of life different
(52:46):
backgrounds I think there'ssomething cultivated in you
where you where you learn how tonavigate through those
differences with a little bitmore skill and a and a and a
little bit more care uh versuswhen you're in a space where
Christianity is the dominantexpression it's just easy to
kind of bulldoze over everybodyelse right or exclude yourself
(53:08):
from everybody else right butwhen but when you when you are
5,000 amongst millions it's yeahyou you have you have to cross
through these other spaces youhave to engage these other
people and you learn how to dothat with with with genuine
respect and regard uh for forfor those individuals as image
bearers right because at the endof the day like you said uh yeah
(53:31):
we yeah we may we may um havedifferences of opinion and those
differences could have eternalconsequences I mean that's why
you're in France to to ministeruh to those eternal consequences
right but at the same time evenwith those eternal consequences
the reality is is that you arean image bearer and thus you
deserve the affirmation of thedignity that it that goes with
(53:54):
being that image bearer.
SPEAKER_01 (53:56):
Yes that we are uh the Mago Day every human being
is is made in the image of Godyou know every every every human
life and also let me let me bevery uh clear and specific on on
this too you know we're notsaying that everyone needs to
you know pack up be a missionarylonger term I mean I think
(54:17):
Mission Mississippi here youknow offers many opportunities
you know whether it's uh youknow collective prayer or
partner churches or that you cango into different cultural
contexts you know locally andalso I mean I love the
short-term missions that uhchurches do as well you know we
(54:38):
led several efforts to Hondurasand India that were very you
know rewarding um to to allowpeople you know to have a an
opportunity for for a shortseason you know both to be part
of of worship and ministry indifferent cultural contexts and
also to begin to developing youknow you know that nuance
(55:01):
towards uh towards towards thenon-Christians towards the
others so I just reallyencourage you know both churches
locally and uh you know andinternationally you know to
engage in those opportunitiesand I think uh many churches you
know provide them you knowthroughout our our region
awesome awesome John um anybodythat wants to keep up with you
(55:27):
and the uh incredible missionarywork that you're doing uh over
in Paris and France do you havesome ways for people to do that?
Yes they could um so a coupleways first we do leverage social
media our church is on Instagramand Facebook at EIC and that's a
manual international church EICReeve Gauche uh we have a
(55:52):
website that's eicparis.org andthen we have a a personal blog
that we open up about challengesof missionary life in the called
the Tates in Paris but that isthat's more personal family
ministry that my wife and Iwrite and then uh our church is
EIC Reeves Gauche EIC ReevGoshuh Instagram Paris and then EIC
(56:15):
Paris is dot org is the website.
SPEAKER_00 (56:18):
Awesome awesome you can also keep up with John's
writings every week because hestill after all these years uh
shares uh his gifting withMission Mississippi by providing
uh our weekly word which is a uhword of encouragement around uh
prayer and reconciliation andand continue and continued
growth in the unity that God hasestablished for us through
(56:39):
Christ and so anytime you get aMission Mississippi newsletter
and you see a weekly word it isbecause John Hugh Tate has
crafted that and so that'sanother way that you can keep up
with what John's doing inministry as well.
So man John brother I'm gratefulfor you uh glad that you're over
uh over uh here on this side ofthe water for a little while and
I'm praying uh rest andrelaxation and recovery for you
(57:02):
and I'll pray the Lord continuesto bless you richly man and the
work that you're doing in ParisFrance man.
SPEAKER_01 (57:09):
Thank you brother and thankful for you and your
leadership with MissionMississippi and have loved this
conversation and uh we'llcontinue talking but uh just
thankful for this ministry andand all it means both in this
state and and across the world.
SPEAKER_00 (57:23):
Amen blesses to you and to those that are listening
uh today again we want to thankyou guys feel free to like share
subscribe you can go to anypodcast app in order to find us
uh you can go tomissionmississippi.org in order
to find us and also feel free toshare uh with other uh other
friends and family members thispodcast this podcast episode but
(57:45):
just this podcast in general wewould love for you to get the
word out and spread it um as wenavigate through reconciliation
and all of its differentbranches uh including the
branches that show up in ParisFrance uh on behalf of my friend
John Hutate I'm Brian Crawfordsigning off saying God bless
thanks for joining LivingReconciled if you would like
more information on how you canbe a part of the ongoing work of
(58:08):
helping Christians learn how tolive in the reconciliation that
Jesus has already secured pleasevisit us online at
missionmississippi dot or g orcall us at six oh one three five
three six four seven seventhanks again for listening
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