September 29, 2021 • 60 mins
For centuries, the Washoe Tribe migrated seasonally between the Carson Valley and Lake Tahoe. Their presence on the land and cultural practices helped mitigate wildfire risk, as well as enhance wildlife and resilience to drought.
We interviewed Rhiana Jones, Interim Director of the Washoe Environmental Protection Department, and Washoe Tribal Council member Helen Fillmore. They helped to shed light on how the forced removal of Washoe people and their practices from the land has impacted ecosystems. They also discussed how the MÁYALA WÁTA Restoration Project aims to restore and preserve Meeks Meadow by integrating traditional knowledge and culturally guided burning practices into current land management strategies.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Megan Kay (00:19):
Welcome to the living with fire Podcast, where we
share stories and resources tohelp you live more safely with
wildfire.
Hi, I'm your host, Megan Kay andthe outreach coordinator for the
living fire program. And I'mjoined by my boss Jamie rice
gums. Hi, Jamie.
Jamie Roice-Gomes (00:34):
Hi, how's it going?
Megan Kay (00:36):
We're here today to talk about the episode you guys
are about to listen to, which isan interview with Helen Fillmore
and Brianna Jones, environmentalspecialists with the Washoe
tribe. And we got to talk tothem abou tcultural history of
burning on Washoe lands and alsogot to talk to them about some
(00:59):
great projects that they'reworking on right now up in Meeks
Meadows in Tahoe. So Jamie, you,you, you weren't able to be on
the interview. Because we got wegot busy schedules, but you were
able to listen to it. I justwanted to hear your take on it.
Jamie Roice-Gomes (01:12):
To be honest, I was I thought it was
fascinating to learn from HelenFillmore about what the the
strongest evidence for fire andcultural learning was with the
washer tribe and the elders,just how they, they cook the
pine nuts, and in how theycollect the pine nuts and, and
(01:35):
how that's related. And it justreally made me think of the
importance of ,you know, findingout information from from
previous generations like, whatthey did and how they did it.
And, and I don't want to go intothat and really kind of like
(01:56):
spoil it for the audience, butand I'm gonna bring up an
example that's completelyunrelated, but kind of related.
It just reminds me of like, youknow, my friend's grandma used
to put spearmint in her flower.
And why did she do that? She didit because the mint and
spearmint gum repels weevils.
(02:20):
Don't really know that. And soit's really, it's really
important to find out fromprevious generations, what they
did, and why they did it, andthen implement that into the
habits and the thought processand the things that you do
today. And it just, it it justresonated me. I know, it's not
really related, but I just is isimportant.
Megan Kay (02:41):
Yeah, I that is something that I have not really
thought much about either. Andthat really resonated with me
and not to spoil it, becauseit's a great interview. And but
yeah, the idea that just kindof, we've always interacted with
the land and vegetation, whetherit's harvesting, just existing
(03:02):
on a land having to create firesto survive, and the impact that
that has on the ecosystem. So itreally got me thinking about
just how humans interact withecosystems and how we've always
been doing that. Ever sincehumans were on the land and
(03:22):
measuring that. And taking thatin context is really important
when you think aboutrestoration. Because what are we
trying to restore theseecosystems to? and humans have
to be a part of that. Think thatthat logic and that that
process? So that's a long windedintro to this episode. I hope
(03:44):
you guys enjoy it. And here'sthe interview.
Rhiana Jones (04:01):
My name is Rhiana Jones. I am environmental
specialist to with the Washoetribe of Nevada in California. I
work for the EnvironmentalProtection department
Helen Fillmore (04:11):
Dawatlaume dgum dya li. Helen Fillmore
dabo tlu dgum dya li.
Pwalu dtdei li. My name isHelen Fillmore. And I'm also an
environmental specialist for theWashoe tribe. And I'm currently
or I guess, recently, our fireResilience Project Manager to
try to restore and revitalizeour cultural burning practices
(04:33):
for our within our homelands,but specifically for our
restoration projects.
Christina Restaino (04:41):
I'm Christina Restaino. I'm the
director of this esteemedprogram on the faculty at UNR.
Megan Kay (04:49):
I'm Megan Kay, I'm the outreach coordinator for the
living fire program at UNR. Sobefore we dive into the topics
of like the word, the work thatyou're doing, I wanted to Get to
know you guys a little bit. Sowhy don't we start with Rhiana?
And do you mind giving, likeletting us know how you got to
be an environmental specialist.
Rhiana Jones (05:10):
I grew up in this area. I'm Washoe and Salt River
Pima-Maricopa down from Arizona.
And I grew up on the Hung A LelTi reservation. And I went to
school in Northern California atHumboldt State for my undergrad,
I have an undergraduate degreein botany. And both my parents
were artists, I was really intonature and drawing. And so I was
(05:31):
like, I'm going to go and learnall the parts of plants and be
able to draw and really goodand, you know, become a
botanical Illustrator. But I,you know, that didn't happen, I
went another direction, and justreally got into the science of
plants and botany andenvironmental science and
conservation. And I went on toget my master's in New Mexico,
and New Mexico State University.
(05:55):
So I have a master's in plantand environmental science.
There, I studied chili peppers,which was kind of another caveat
from my plan. But after that,you know, I wanted to, to work
for one of my tribes, or anyindigenous tribe, really, to
kind of take what I learned backto my community, and you know,
(06:19):
help others, encourage others togo to school, the youth
education was really heavilyinfluenced in my family. And I
think it's really important forpeople to, you know, leave their
leave their hometown for a whileand get out and see what's out
there. And then be able to, youknow, learn some stuff and bring
it back to your community. Sothat was my plan. And, you know,
(06:42):
I, there was an opportunity towork for the Environmental
Protection department. And I'vebeen here about a year and four
months. So I'm the mix metalproject manager, I work up with
the restoration project for themaiella Water Restoration. And
we're doing some, you know,COVID kind of stops and stuff,
(07:04):
but we're doing some coniferthinning up there. And when we
started doing groundwatermonitoring, and we hope to have
a scientific publication out ofthat. So I think, what I would
like to see, and you know, whyI'm passionate about working for
the department is bringing amore, you know, scientific
aspect to some of the work we'redoing, there's, you know, a good
(07:25):
cultural aspect, but I think,you know, mixing that with
science as well, and in terms ofgetting it out into the public
and, you know, being relevant inthe scientific community is, is
what I want to see and hope for,for this project, and the
groundwater monitoringspecifically, and the cultural
burning Helen, so you can writea paper,
Helen Fillmore (07:43):
it's Goofy, I feel goofy sometimes talking
about this, I guess, like how Igot passionate about this work.
But when I was younger, we had aWashiw language immersion school
where we were taught by ourelders, and it's one of those
like one one room schoolhouseskind of a situation where there
was only 20 of us. Or so I'm notexactly sure this the whole
(08:05):
number, what not, but, um, atthe Washiw language immersion
school, we took, you know, wewere taught everything in our
language, from our elders, andthen for our science classes, we
got to learn from like expertsin the field, because we would
take these field trips up to mixmeadow, my ahlawat, that's what
(08:27):
we call it, and up to Tahoe,kind of throughout our
homelands. And they would, theway that they kind of arranged
it was that, you know, we wouldtalk to that foresters are
talked to some of the headscientists, and they would give
like these little bit ofoutreach, and at that time, it
was really awesome, because we'dbe learning from our elders kind
(08:47):
of in preparation of thosemeetings or those like, like, on
the ground experiences, and, youknow, our elders would tell us
kind of their version of it. Andthen it would be reinforced then
by what the scientists weresaying to and so it was kind of
this really, you know, it wasjust this environmental science,
(09:09):
ecology was just a disciplinethat really resonated with, like
our cultural beliefs, ourvalues, and things like that.
And so I would say my passionstart to started to develop at
that early age. And then when Igot into college, I took a
environmental management courseand my professor at that time
(09:33):
was, he was really awesome. Butthe first half of the I was at
the University of Washington inSeattle, and the first half of
the class was kind of generalmanagement and things like that.
And then the second half of theclass is Tahoe is a case study.
Because taho is one of the fewareas in the world that's
actually managed at thewatershed level. And then it's,
(09:54):
it's all these differentmemorandums of agreements
between different states andjurisdictions and things like
that. But he's It was not onlythat I realized, like, I can be
in a discipline and studysomething that's really
interesting. And that's reallyrelevant to our culture. But
then I can also study the areasthat are specific to that are
(10:19):
most important to me. And I canstudy them, you know, all the
way in Seattle, way far awayfrom home. So in so many ways,
like environmental science keptme home. And I always knew, like
I wanted to return back home.
During that time, I was alsoworking as a wildland
firefighter out of Carson City,just as a quick way to make some
good money and travel in thesummertime, and to be outside
(10:41):
and camping. And I really fellin love with that job. During
that time, I was planning onkind of pursuing that as a
career. But I, I decided, atsome point that I made a pretty
good firefighter, but that I'dmake a really great something
else. And so went back to schoolthat my Master's in hydrology,
and this position opened thiswas it, I guess, my, my interest
(11:05):
has always been more into likeresearch and kind of like what
Rianna was saying as far as,like getting more into some of
that height, like not higher,but getting more into some of
the more technical, scientificresearch areas. But with the
pandemic, I did really want tostart getting more into
(11:28):
implementation. And so took thisjob with the tribe. And yeah, I
would say, you know, as far aslike what keeps me excited, it's
like working with people likeRianna everyday somebody who
grew up in the area, who haslike, all of the personal
relationship and all of that,like cultural relationship that
(11:50):
we kind of stemmed from, butthen also has the other
perspective, too, of like, youknow, these are people that we
can work with to really makethis cultural relationship we
have that much stronger. Theseare people who can support us in
those ways. And so it's justbeen Yeah, I will say it's been.
It's, it's really an honor to beworking for, like your homelands
(12:14):
and your community directly. AndI am looking forward to what we
can build here.
Megan Kay (12:22):
I like what you said too, about the you're a good
wildland firefighter, but youwould make a great something
else. I think a lot of people ifI share that as well with just
like a little bit of wildlandfire experiences like I think
I'd be better at something else.
The you guys touched on itearlier when you were talking
about Markleville and thereservation, but do you just for
(12:43):
folks, listeners who don't knowwe're Washoe tribal lands are
Rhiana or Helen? Would you guysmind just giving a quick
overview of the of the triballands and also specifically just
the projects where the projectsare located that you guys are
working on?
Helen Fillmore (13:01):
Oh, yes. So Da ow a ga Tahoe. is the center of
our homelands and our homelandsreally kind of extend out from
there up into the north andtesters and build down south by
Mono Lake. And then kind of justdefinitely on the like Eastern
Sierra foothills, and then onthe side up into the pinenut
hills, the western side up intothe pinenut hills, and so we
(13:24):
have both kind of like thoseSierra Nevada ecosystems, and
then those Great Basinecosystems as well. Um, where
we're located currently, ourheadquarters is in Gardnerville,
Nevada, we've our reservationlands are very small compared to
(13:46):
our you know, our traditionalterritories. We have four
communities one located in hunga lel ti, in woodfords,
California Markleeville area,then one in gardnerville, and
two in Carson City. And that'swhere the I guess, about half of
(14:06):
our tribal members reside withinthose four communities. The
other half live off reservationbut the significant majority of
our authorization tribal memberslive within the area, like Reno,
Carson City, Sacramento, kind ofstill like in those those like
regular boundaries, um, and thenour project so our projects are
(14:32):
kind of tricky because we, mostof our specific projects are on
reservation lands or that's whatwe're committed to is our, like
our reservation lands or trustlands, but our biggest projects
are on Forest Service land andon viia allotment lands. And so
those are ones where we have tohave like, more official
(14:54):
agreements in place, and likewhat official funding to come in
and so The big allotment lands.
So those are our firerestoration projects and Romain
Smokey the third. He's the onewho's managing those projects.
We're getting ready to replant.
Tomorrow we're gonna startkicking off our spring planting.
(15:15):
And then the maiella watershedproject in the Tahoe Basin. We
have a couple of acres withinthe Tahoe Basin that are tribal
land, but the Milo what thatproject isn't tribal land, it's
for service land, but it's ourbiggest restoration project. And
yeah,
Megan Kay (15:32):
is that the I'm sorry, I creeped on you guys and
read your letter, the WashoeEnvironmental Protection
Department newsletter. Is thatthe what the the the project
that's described in thatnewsletters at the the Mayala
Wata or is that the MeeklsMeadow? Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
Unknown (15:52):
So I think Helen mentioned earlier Mayala Wata is
the name for Meeks Creek. Sowe're calling that whole project
that Meeks Meadow the MayalaWata restoration project. So the
Meeks Meadow and the Mayala Wataproject are the same one. I'll
pick up where Helen left off.
Yes. So the main projects we aregoing now on now like she said,
are in the Pinenut hills andMeeks Meadow but we received
some funding through its tribalwildlife grant to do a
(16:18):
resilience garden where we canbe funded to grow our own
culturally sensitive and nativerestoration plans for our own
restoration projects. So we'vetalked about there's skunk
harbor parcel up on Tahoe theincline parcel belongs to the
Washoe tribe, is that accurateto say Helen? Okay, Olympic
Valley, and then Meeks,Pinenuts, and there's also a
(16:42):
Babbitt peak parcel. So all ofthese could potentially be sites
for future restoration or, youknow, fire prevention go and
then the trees or the bushesand, you know, possibly plant
some plants up there. But I'lltalk a little bit about Meeks
since that's my main project. Sowhat we hope to do up there, you
(17:03):
know, COVID stops and stuff butthe plan with the Forest Service
and through the stewardshipagreement, and we have a lot of
other funders like the NationalFish and Wildlife, the
California Tahoe Conservancy,Taho Fund, many, many people
have contributed to this projectto to get it going. So we have
plans to thin the conifers thisyear lodgepole pines have
(17:26):
encroached on the meadow, it's300 acres of meadow and it's you
know, hardly recognizable as ameadow anymore. So to thin all
those trees and then go in anddo some culturally guided
prescribed burns, and then plantsome culturally significant
plants. Once the water tablecomes up a little bit we, you
(17:47):
know, those, what we're seeingnow through our groundwater
monitoring is that thoseconifers are just acting as
straws and sucking up all themoisture in the meadow. So we
hope to have that you know, comeback to be more Boggy and
provide you know proper habitatfor the middle plants everyone's
their culturally significantplants plants use for medicine,
(18:08):
plants for food, all theseimportant to the Washoe, Washoe
tribe and as well as basketmaking materials that are found
in the meadow.
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(19:09):
So how did you guys? How are youguys able to understand the
evidence of cultural practicesand cultural burning? Like how
did you guys come to learn aboutit? Did you guys talk to elders?
Or is there documented history?
Helen Fillmore (19:27):
One of the trickiest parts about us and
kind of about the washu tribeand our people in our community
specifically in our relationshipto fires that we I would say the
greatest evidence that we havecurrently demonstrating that
washiw people did burn precontact pre you know pre
(19:49):
colonialism is kind of the stateof our ecosystems. So I would
say that's the best evidencethat we have because we Do you
have a our homelands are locatedin areas where when settlement
started, which, for a long time,you know, we didn't get you were
(20:11):
kind of one of the latercommunities to get colonized
just because of access to theSierras. And there's so many
mountains you have to climb justto get to washiw your homelands
that it wasn't until like thelate till the gold rush. And
then when silver was found inthe Comstock Lode that we
really, like, started seeing alot of settlement. But when we
(20:32):
started seeing settlement in ourhomelands, it was significant,
and it was severe. And so andsince then, you know, I mean, we
can just mention Tahoe, at anyinternational stage, and people
would know that area, becauseit's even to this day, you know,
that the rate of tourism upthere is so high. So with the
(20:56):
influence of settlement, whyshould people have kind of,
well, I shouldn't say, I wouldsay, with the influence of
settlement, we haven't ourcommunities, our elders, our
families haven't practiced fire,the entire Tahoe Basin was clear
cut for timber production, at acertain time. And so that
completely changed the ecosystemthere. And so, you know, even
(21:22):
even finding ecological evidenceof like, how often fires might
have occurred is, is a hugestretch that we're kind of
trying to, to reconstruct andrevitalize. And so, um, but is
there, it's not that there isn'tknowledge within our
communities, or that our eldersremember, it's just that we're
(21:43):
asking them to remember thingswhen they were three, four years
old. And some of them, sometimesit's how you ask the questions,
and sometimes it's how you startthe stories and, and then what
you get from those stories, it'salso like, they might have a
story of, you know, a certainfire story about how to cook
(22:06):
pinenuts or a story about thingswhere fire would be used. And to
them, it's not, you know, we usefire for a healthy environment,
we use fire to keep our plantsstrong, it was like, Well, this
was when we used fire. And thiswas at this point, or this fire
was lit because of this otherreason, that seems completely
(22:27):
unrelated. But it also showslike they had this huge, and
like significant knowledge offire and how it would move
throughout the landscape. And sowhat we're working on right now,
really, is to try to restore inthose areas where I would, you
know, weave weave together kindof all of that best knowledge
(22:48):
that we might know, or weavetogether all of the evidence
that we might be able to find ina way that is culturally
relevant, even though it mightnot be rooted in very specific
stories or, you know, veryspecific guidelines and how it
was done previously, but waysthat it can still be culturally
(23:10):
relevant in a way that our likefuture generations can also
carry it on from now. And sothat kind of means that we're
moving a little bit slower thanwhat I think you know, even the
environment wants us to move in,when it comes to kind of
restoring what what needs tohappen and what kind of changes
(23:30):
we need to see. But at the sametime, I think it is going to be
a lot stronger, a lot strongerfoundation, if we do it right,
it'll have a lot strongerfoundation, into the future.
Megan Kay (23:41):
Thank you for, for unpacking that for me, because
like, it makes so much sense towhat you guys were talking
about, like what inspires youabout your work. And so for me
is not a scientist, but it, itmakes me It's like putting
together the pieces and usingyour science background, to come
up with the evidence and maybejust shining a light on
(24:03):
something that the scientificcommunity has, it has yet to
shine a light on, you know,using those skills that you guys
have learned and then just likeusing it to talk about
restoration, but in a cultural,with cultural context. And I
just think that's why that thisinterests me so much, because
it's kind of it's like a missingpiece of the puzzle. And I
(24:25):
wanted to follow up to and kindof ask about because you were
talking about like culturalculturally relevant plants that
you're trying to, to would it belike replant? Is that the right
term or to just rehabilitate? Doyou guys just want to share a
little bit of of that thosespecifics like what kind of
plants are you trying toemphasize and yeah, that
Rhiana Jones (24:47):
there's a list of, you know, maybe 60 plants that
were chosen as having culturalsignificance. WEPD did some work
with a cultural resourcesdepartment and some elders to
put together this list. Some ofthose plants would be Yarrow
wild onion, swamp onion, thesewere all food. Not Yarrow years
(25:11):
and medicine, mountain alder,service Berry, blueberry, green
leaf, Manzanita, early fall,some root, and sincere. A lot of
these plants all have names inWashoe. And some of them are
still up in Meeks meadow, butsome of them you don't see as
(25:31):
much. or there might be, youknow, one or two. So replanting
would be, you know, one thing wedo want to do. And that's kind
of where that resilience guardwould come in to see if we can
grow some of these culturallysignificant native plants that
you know, I don't know if youguys have ever tried to grow
native plants, but it seems likeonly Mother Earth can do it.
Megan Kay (25:51):
I was gonna say for the resilience guard, would
there is there then like a planput in place to preserve what
you guys have rehabilitated tomake sure that it's that it's a
resource for? Or is it justmeant to be sort of Is it is it
meant to be like a, anexperiment, or is it meant to be
like a usable resource, like aplace that people can go to
forage these plants,
Unknown (26:13):
it's mostly meant to be a usable resource, so that we
could, you know, as fundingallows, keep these plants
growing, and have youth andcommunity members come in and
learn how to grow these plants,and what they're used for, and
then also maybe be able to goout to rehabilitate their
homelands, you know, I thinkthat's a big, a big part of it.
(26:36):
And very important, you know, inorder for people to feel that
connection to nature is to beable to go out and do the work
themselves. So have these plantsand then give them to the
community. And, you know, maybeI think like, currently, we have
funding to have a communitymember come in and take care of
these plants. But you know, havethem go out and continue to do
(26:57):
this for years to come. I thinkthe stewardship agreement for
Meeks Meadow goes till 2028. So,you know, as long as we have
that, that timeframe, and, andthat permission to go and be
doing work in the Meadow, wewant to, you know, get as much
stuff done as we can have asmany cultural events as we can
up there, and be able to takeelders up there again, and, you
(27:18):
know, hear those stories. And,you know, maybe they remember
going up there as a kid, or, youknow, hearing stories about
their parents growing up as akid, that, you know, my hopes
are just kind of triggered thosememories by actually taking
people out. And having them youknow, do more hands on stuff
with the plants and therestoration. And, you know,
planting the plants digging inthe meadow, removing invasive
(27:40):
weeds by hand, being able toidentify those invasive weeds,
that type of thing.
Helen Fillmore (27:47):
Yeah, and I guess just to add to that, too,
because it like restoration issuch restoration itself, right
is such a intensive activity. Torestore an ecosystem ecosystem
from like a devastated orunhealthy state and get it back
to a healthy state is laborintensive, it's costly, it's,
(28:14):
it's really challenging, right.
And then you're alwaysevaluating kind of the pros and
cons of different activities,because one activity might, you
know, negatively impact adifferent activity. But when it
comes to stewardship, if we canrestore these ecosystems into a
healthy state, and then provideour, you know, restore some of
(28:36):
those cultural practices, sothat it's truly just
stewardship, and it'smaintenance at that point it
really like, then we don't haveto, you know, wait till it
regrows in 20 years, and then dothis other intensive project.
Again, we just have this ongoingmaintenance, this ongoing
stewardship of the area. And byrestoring our culturally
important plants that reallydoes kind of restore, well, we
(28:57):
have to restore the plants, butwe also have to restore the
activities that kind of reallydo improve those conditions for
those plants and improve thatconnection between our community
and that area. But if we'resuccessful at all of those
different steps, then really atthat point, our community has
everything that they need to, toreally contribute to the health
(29:21):
of the ecosystems as well as thehealth of like, our culture or
language, our you know,traditional practices or, you
know, spiritual beliefs, thingslike that. And so I think the
long term goal is that, youknow, we don't keep having that
we can restore these areas, andthen it's just, you know,
maintenance and stewardship atthat point. It's not these
(29:43):
heavy, these intensiverestoration projects. So
Megan Kay (29:50):
could you guys help paint a picture of like, what
the ecosystem used to look like,what it looks like now and then
kind of like what What you'retrying to get it to? So like,
what are these metals used tolook like? Or if you were to
experience it, what would it be?
Like?
Christina Restaino (30:07):
And and more? How did they use to? What
were the processes and thefunctions that made them
healthy? Right? Because that'show we think about healthy,
healthy ecosystems. Right is is,how were, what were the
functions that were occurringthat were evidence that they
were healthy to begin with?
Megan Kay (30:24):
Yeah, so like, three, I guess we're going on a journey
here. So it's like paintingthree pictures. So like, I guess
pre colonization, and pre seven,pre, you know, European
settlement. And then, I guess,whatever point you could
pinpoint to target, I guess,like right now, and then also
Rhiana Jones (30:44):
you know, the Comstock era, like Helen
what you're trying to get to,mentioned, changed everything.
So I believe that was around1860. So the metal previously
was a meadow prior to settlers,the combs back era, it was, you
know, still a meadow. Andtraditionally, Washoe's would
have their winter camps in theCarson Valley, and then go up to
Tahoe for their summer camps andspend the summer there hunting,
(31:07):
fishing, and, you know,gathering these medicinal
plants, and the foods that grewin the middle. So this, you
know, happened for 1000s and1000s of years. And then after
the Comstock era, they cut itall down for timber, the meadow,
I believe, was used for cattlegrazing. And so it just
completely changed theecosystem. And, you know,
(31:29):
Washoe's were driven out of LakeTahoe, they weren't allowed to
continue their seasonalmigration to and from Lake Tahoe
for their summer camps. And sothey stopped, you know,
essentially managing the land.
And when I say managing land,you know, you talked a little
bit about the history of fire.
And so when I think about that,it's like, you know, they didn't
(31:52):
call burning the meadow culturalburning, fire was just a part of
life, you had a fire. And fromwhat I've read, that fires were,
when they left, the summer campfires were left to burn. And
then we'll just kind of smallaround the area, burn whatever
trash or sticks they had cutdown or use for tools, and then
that kind of just smoldered outand kind of, you know, clean the
(32:16):
area for the next next season'suse. So there wasn't like a
bunch of buildup in trash outthere. I've also heard people
tell stories, it's like, oh,yeah, you know, my father would
burn the meadow. And I was like,Well, what was it for? Because,
again, you know, asking elder,if they did cultural burning,
you're not going to get theanswer you want. So it's, you
(32:36):
know, a process of trying to tryto ask the right questions, like
Helen said, and figure out, youknow, how they used that fire?
Was it for cooking was it for,you know, just warmth? Was it
for cooking pine nuts or dryingmaterials? You know, there's,
(32:57):
there's information there thatwe were still getting at. But I
think prior to the Comstock era,it was the seasonal migration
that essentially was the landmanagement of clearing out trees
that were in their way in theway of their camps and maybe
burning those trees. As simpleas that.
Helen Fillmore (33:15):
It's really easy to explain when you look at the
history of fire in the area tosome of the other things like
even when we're talkingspecifically about meadows, it
gets a little bit more nuanced,because people don't understand
like, oh, there's all these, youknow, basket layer plants that
won't grow if they don't haveenough water. But why does this
even matter? Because we'd rathergo up into the hills and berries
(33:38):
instead. Um, so. But when itcomes to fire in the history of
fire, like what we're seeingright now, for example, are
these huge mega fires, thenthey're spreading so rapidly,
and it's become it's a state ofemergency all summer long every
summer. And how did we get tothat situation, and it's been,
(34:01):
you know, the removal of fire,but also kind of the removal of
indigenous practices within thelands. And so the removal of
fire is a huge, like, fire is adisturbance, but it's a
necessary disturbance. Ourgathering practices are a
disturbance, but they'reunnecessary disturbance, our
cooking practices were adisturbance but unnecessary
(34:23):
disturbance that theseecosystems have also adapted to.
And so when you remove adisturbance, just like if you
remove an apex predator from theecosystem, it totally changes
that ecosystem and the health ofthat ecosystem in the way that
it functions naturally. And sofinding a way to incorporate
(34:44):
that disturbance into the thesystem again in and not just
incorporating it butincorporating it in the way that
it would lead to the health andthe like the natural state of
that ecosystem. Originally. Sothat's kind of, I would say,
(35:05):
where we're getting at as far aslike what, why restoration is
needed on these areasspecifically is because we've
removed these really importantparts of the ecosystem. And then
we've stayed hands off, and we'dleft them alone. And now these
ecosystems have grown andchanged into these really
(35:25):
unhealthy states that thencreate further devastation. And
so the meadows are a really nicearea. Um, as far as identifying
like, really, I don't want tosay easy, but the meadows are
kind of perfect opportunity tojust show how bad things get if
(35:48):
we are actively managing it. Soin forested areas, it kind of
takes a little bit longer to seehow, you know, you might do a
prescribed burn, burn, andthat'll kill some trees, and
then it just kind of like peoplewalk by, and they think it's so
sad and, and horrible for solong until it finally eventually
gets to that state. But in thesemeadows, you can look out to
(36:12):
these completely even standswhere you can't even see through
them. You wouldn't be able towalk through them, the wildlife
can't get through them. There'sno corridor, they're completely
separated. And then once thestreets establish the re of,
then the rate of establishmentjust keeps going up because
they're able like with meadows,good functioning Meadow is wet
(36:36):
enough that those coniferspecies can't grow there because
they get their drowned basicallyto get too much water and they
can't survive. But as soon asthey start to establish
themselves, and usually indrought years, they start to
soak up more and more of thatwater. And then all of a sudden,
you don't have a meadow, youhave a really dense, really
(36:57):
scary, really intense forest.
And so at that point, it doestake really heavy restoration
work to remove it and get itback to that state. But then,
because Meadows are such aannual ecosystem that even you
know, after your first year ofburning, the next spring, when
(37:17):
everything grows, all the metalplants, not all of them, but a
lot of them grow back andanything that had kind of that
seed bank that's still in thatarea grows back, and they're
luscious, and they're green, andthey're beautiful. And so it's
really a great, great focus.
Right now, I think as far askind of really trying to, to
(37:41):
restore these practices inplaces that are really like
really needed, like at acritical state right now.
Megan Kay (37:57):
Communities located in wildfire prone areas need to
take extra measures to livesafely. There are many ways to
prepare communities andproperties for wildfire,
including creating andmaintaining adequate defensible
space and hardening homes towithstand wildfire. This could
mean altering or replacingcertain components of the home.
Our wildfire home retrofit guidewill help you better prepare
your home and communities forwildfire. You can find the guide
(38:20):
in the resources section of ourwebsite at living with fire
calm.
Christina Restaino (38:30):
I want to hear a little bit more about the
fire resilience projects andthinking about the kind of, you
know, three different ecosystemtypes, if you will, right, you
have the sere data, the PJwoodland and the sagebrush
ecosystem. And so what does whatdo targets for cultural burning
(38:54):
look like in those three verysignificantly different eco
regions, if you will, that wehave here?
Helen Fillmore (39:05):
Yeah, I'm good.
I'm glad you brought that up. Sothe fire Resilience Project
really came out of the myahlawat to cultural burn,
because we're, we're really ourdepartment is like environmental
protection focused. So we don'thave like a fire suppression
focus or something like thatwithin our department. And so
when it came up that like, youknow, fire, is it a stewardship
practice? What is that going tolook like for? Like, what do we
(39:29):
what skills do we need? Whatresources do we need within this
department to then be able touse fire as a stewardship
practice on our projects forenvironmental protection? And so
that's kind of how theconversation got started and
what we're what we're lookingat, but then it's tricky in
these different ecosystems. Soagain, fire in Meadows it's
(39:50):
obvious that Meadows need to becleared out when they start when
this conifers start toencroaching encroaching on it.
In general in Sierra Nevadamixed conifer forests, it's
pretty obvious. But then inthese sagebrush woodland
ecosystems with cheatgrassinvasive species, implementing
(40:10):
fire becomes this verycomplicated thing to tackle.
Megan Kay (40:18):
Yeah, cuz isn't there, isn't there more fire
than there historically was inthose ecosystems?
Helen Fillmore (40:23):
Yes. And it's in the fires. Devastating, right?
Because pinyon pines, they'relike these little shrubs that
are close to the ground, andthey don't have a thick bark, if
fire gets to them, they're gone,for the most part. And so trying
to figure out what fire may ormay not have looked like in the
(40:44):
pilot hills is a little bittrickier. But I have some
theories I'm kind of based offof, because So the one thing
that's different about taho inthe pilot hills is that we do
have a much more recent andstronger cultural memory about
what happens in the pilot hills,because we, our family has kept
(41:06):
our like tribal allotmentproperties in the pilot hills,
because they were so significantto our culture, um, based off of
like, what we can find theydidn't, they never, you know,
just did an understory burn, ortried to do a understory burn in
the pilot hills. Based off the,I think, like, the evidence from
(41:29):
our culture, I would say theevidence from an ecological
standpoint, however, is also weget best as far as what change
happened in the mid 1850s, thatled to the Thai encroachment of
pinyon, Juniper, both kind ofinfilling within the forest
areas, and then also spreading.
So I do on a personal note forlike, some of our theories, from
(41:51):
a cultural standpoint are alittle bit stronger than what we
might be able to find out from,like a scientific or ecological
standpoint. And there isstarting to be come, they're
starting, there are some studiescoming out about it, this is
going to get kind of heavy for asecond, but studies in the
(42:12):
southwest talking aboutde-population. And so when
settlers came here, when theyfirst started showing up, our
communities were alreadydecimated, because like disease
had come before them. And itlike it followed them
beforehand, we used to have veryextensive trade routes. And so
even before we startedinteracting with settlers, we
(42:34):
were interacting with people whointeracted with who interacted
with who interacted withsettlers, and then kind of
already experiencing thatdevastation from disease. And so
we might not know what ourpopulation was pre colonization,
but we can estimate that itwould be a lot larger than what
it was when they did come here,or when they did start kind of
(42:56):
making estimates about that. Andso with that becomes a huge land
use change, right? Becausepeople aren't even there, just
less people in the environmentusing the resources. I mean, now
we have over as a countryoverpopulation, potentially, I
mean, as a world, you know,we're really putting our
(43:16):
resources that their, theircapacity to a large degree, but
in those times we were, theywere being underutilized for for
at least a few decades, right.
Before? Well, that I would saythey're still being
underutilized to what they'rekind of ecologically adapted to
(43:36):
do, because not only with washypeople, but for the nimo. And
there were the only people inthe Great Basin, the pilots were
the reason why we've been ableto survive for 1000s of years,
because it was a food storesthat you could store for
multiple years. And that you canbecause you could store it, you
could save it and store it, youcould live off of it, even if
(43:59):
there's a bad crop. So we havethese climate of this, like, you
know, hi, I always it's the mostvariable climate and almost the
world because we have so manydifferent mountain ranges, we
have hot summers and coldwinters. So both in like a
regular, you know, yearlyclimate, but then in our annual
(44:19):
we'll get some years where weget a lot of snow, and then some
years followed by no snow. Andso you have to have some sort of
a food source that you can storefor multiple years if you're
gonna live. And so these areaswere heavily heavily used by our
communities. And then when youremove people from that
situation, then they're nolonger being used.
(44:40):
So I think some of our strongestour strongest evidence of fire
and cultural burning are what,you know, what did we do to keep
those areas healthy for thefuture, and I really do think a
lot of it comes from How wegathered pine nuts, how we
(45:01):
cooked pine nuts and how westored them. And so when we
gathered pilots, we'd clean, Ishould say, not when we'd like
not past tense, but when wegather pine nuts, we clean out
the duff underneath these trees.
And that's really important,especially when you go out
there. Because if fire can getinto that duff, it can get up
into the tree really easy. So weclean out that duff, because it
(45:23):
creates kind of this clear areathat when we knock the pine nuts
under the ground, and then youcan get them. And then the other
part that we do is that we callit a bhe, but it's like a big
long stick, and then use that toknock the pine cones onto the
ground. And when you do that,you're also thinning, like
trimming the trees. Becausethese, these trees don't knock
(45:44):
them, they're not the type ofconifer that knocks like prunes
themselves. So they have to havelike to get rid of dead
branches, they need assistance.
And so when we're hitting thosetrees with that bhe, it's
getting rid of those like thosedead branches. And, you know,
(46:05):
thinning that area out. So inand of itself, even just how we
gather it, it creates a morefire resilient tree, just from
gathering alone. And then withthat duff, and that those dead
branches. So when we cook ourpine nuts, we cook them in like
earthen ovens, we cook themunder the ground. So you take
that dead duff, those thatbranches, and you use it to
(46:26):
start these, like fires to cookthe pine nuts, and you cook the
pine nuts. Um, and so then youare also getting rid of all of
the fuel that would have beenaccumulated by these original
practices. And then it wouldhave been done kind of for
months, in the fall time.
Because everybody would go upinto the pinenut hills and our
(46:46):
co worker, Shelly Wyatt, she waseven talking, we were talking
earlier this year, and she wastalking about how her her dad
would remember because everybodygo to the same camps. And so
they would look out like acrossover the hill and see like smoke
coming up, and they'll say, Oh,so and so must have just got up
here from wherever. And, andthey always knew that. So
(47:10):
something that not only did theydo it every year. But it was
something that people were socomfortable with. And they just
been, you know, the fall time upthere and even kind of into more
recent years. But now, like whatyou're saying, with cheatgrass,
I mean, I don't even know. Like,we don't know what the solution
(47:33):
is right now. Like we know thatwe're our community is
experiencing that devastation,our elders are always asking us
like, what are we doing toprotect the pinenut hills. But
with that invasive like, there,it I hate to say like, there's
not a whole lot of hope we'regoing to do our best no matter
what, um, and anything we can doto kind of help like the next
(47:55):
person that's going to have topick that up and do it to you. I
think it's worth the effort. ButBut yeah, it's a it's definitely
a tricky conversation, once westart talking about, like, fire
in the face of climate change inthe face of invasive species in
the face of things that youknow, are a little bit harder to
(48:16):
control. You know, I
Christina Restaino (48:19):
I also would think that the gathering of the
Duff and the litter and, and thebranches and everything and
burning all throughout probablykept down seedlings from
encroaching, right. So it's notonly was it making it more
resilient of fire, but it wasalso reducing kind of in growth,
(48:42):
which is becoming a problem inthose regions also now, right.
And so it's that, that dynamic,it, it reminds me, I went on a
trip in Inyo with some tribalelders there. And they were
explaining the piagi trenches onthe Jeffrey pine trees and how
(49:03):
they gather the larvae of thePandora moth. And they but
historically, they would clearthe Duff around all of the big
Jeffrey pine trees. And thoseare some of the oldest, most
kind of iconic, beautiful pinetrees that that exist on the
east side, because they wereculturally maintained for
(49:26):
generations. And you know, thosetrees have survived multiple
wildfires in the contemporaryera because of that. And so, I
think that that logic is reallysound right that that's what was
happening in the pine nuts thatit's this mix of you kind of
(49:48):
grooming the ecosystem, if youwill, managing it's and then you
know, having that ecosystemadapt to that management over
time and then you remove thatentirely and well You don't get
that anymore. The sites thatneed to be restored are the
sites where that kind of, youknow, multi generational
(50:12):
understanding of ecosystemprocess and function has been
removed. Right. And it's thatvery key, you know, whether it's
suppressing giant wildlandfires, whether it's removing
cultural practices, any of thesekind of critical maintenance
(50:32):
regimes that were occurring thatare now gone. That's why we are
working so hard to quoteunquote, restore our , our our
ecosystems is to find thatbalance again. But just like you
said, the target of what thatbalance is, is changing. So
significantly, with invasivespecies with climate change with
(50:53):
encroachment of more humans andthe wildland urban interface,
right. So, you know, bringing inthe lessons learned as much as
we can is so critical, but it ishard sometimes to feel like we
are we are keeping up with thepace and skill that's needed.
Megan Kay (51:09):
It seems like the target instead of, you know, a
ecological target should be morelike a cultural one. Or it's
like, okay, these are thebenchmarks, if we have people in
the ecosystem doing this work,like meaning work, like in
quotation marks, meaning justlike living and like
(51:32):
participating in thesepractices, then hopefully, that
would be kind of re introducingthe human disturbance, which I
thought that was just like, sobeautiful. The way you said that
the Helen are you just like thehumans are disturbance, but
they're unnecessary disturbancewhen they're living with the
land and the, the symbioticrelationship between man and you
(51:53):
know, clearing the Duff toharvest pine nuts and how, how
that shaped the land. So yeah,it seems like from a management
standpoint, I mean, it's sucks,because if you can't hit those
benchmarks of like, okay, weneed to restore this landscape
this way. But it's like, Okay,if we can have, if you can at
least, show that there is someimprovement, and there's
(52:14):
engagement, and we're gettingpeople out there again, to
engage in these practices.
Christina Restaino (52:18):
Well, and it's all sorts of human
interactions, right? Becauseit's like, we need to think
about contemporary humaninteractions in the current
system that we're engaging with,right? And, and all social
scientists, which I'm trained asan ecologist, but have worked a
lot side by side with folks inthe social sciences, you can
(52:38):
read dozens of hundreds 1000s ofacademic papers showing
ecological resilience is socialresilience, as you know, right?
There are these, you can't haveone without the other, I still
think we're having to convinceagencies and folks that this
social cultural resilience isjust as important as ecological
(53:03):
resilience, and you can't haveone without the other. And I'm
seeing all the heads, not hereon the zoom screen. But, you
know, I think that one of theissues that I tend to have is
that, you know, these planningprocesses that we need to go
through in order to implementany management actions on the
landscape takes such a longtime, that by the time we get to
(53:26):
implement them that it's like,well, now the target has
changed. And we need to berethinking how we're, you know,
yeah, it's just, we have so muchdata and science and information
and suggestions out there, wejust need to do.
Helen Fillmore (53:41):
The other part, too, is like, when it does come
to that social component. Whatwe're also facing, right is that
even, I mean, we want people toreconnect with the land, but we
want them to reconnect with itin the right ways. So like, one
of the things that we're reallystruggling with, in our pinenut
hills is like off road vehicleuse, and they they're creating
(54:02):
like way more bad disturbancethan they are any kind of good
disturbance. And, and so I thinkthat's the other part is like
making sure that we're we'retelling like the right story,
that it's not just yeah, it'snot just kind of going up there.
And I don't know, I mean,cultural appropriation has been
(54:25):
such a huge issue that we'vealso experienced that having
like that conversation can gettricky, but I think one of the
things I like about our work isthat we really do get to work
directly, like with the tribeand for the tribe. And so
everything we do really is kindof not appropriative at that
point, it really is about kindof getting doing the right
(54:47):
things that are you know, thereare families that their families
have already been doing for solong.
Megan Kay (54:53):
Yeah, and that's why we want to get like educate
people about those appropriatepractices and This is a good way
because we're already talkingabout it to transition to kind
of like this, what you guys seeis the future of fire and
stewardship. On I mean, I guessyou can, whatever you could be
in the US and the world, butalso like, specifically to some
(55:17):
Washoe lands, like how, what?
And I would, I would, I wouldask you not just like your hopes
and dreams for the history offire, but also like, based on
your experience, like workingwith inter-agencies, like what
are some successes, you've seensome inspiring things, and also
just some challenges to like,these stewardship endeavors.
Rhiana Jones (55:36):
In terms of working with other agencies, you
know, I kind of started thatprocess. And what I have found
is, when it's not fire season,they are very, very receptive
and willing, and open to workingwith tribes, and, you know, they
understand our need for wantingto bring fire back to the land.
(55:57):
You know, talking about culturalburning a prescribed fire, it's
gotten a lot of I don't know,what's the word, momentum this
year with respect to Californiabeing on fire. And, you know,
just kind of rethinking aboutour land practices, not just as
a tribe, or as an indigenousperson, but as somebody who
(56:19):
lives in California, or somebodylives in the Great Basin, just,
you know, like, what we'redoing, you know, isn't working
any longer, it might have workedin the past with suppressing
fire. But now it's gotten to thepoint where these forests are so
overgrown that it's like, okay,let's take a step back and look
at maybe how, you know,indigenous people managed land
(56:40):
before and if this is the rightdirection to go. So they've been
very open and receptive. We'vealso been very fortunate to have
other tribes come and dotraining for our community, the
Greenville ranch area, and DannyManning. And then also bill
Tripp from the karuk tribe inNorthern California. And Ron
(57:03):
goode from I believe the is Eastfork, Mono, or is it mono I
never Mono, mono's a disease,right?
Christina Restaino (57:14):
They always say Mono is a disease, it's
Mono!
Rhiana Jones (57:18):
Right? My dad better not hear this, it's gonna
give it to me. So those tribesand those particular people have
been have been working towardsthis goal for some years,
they've, they have, you know,the proper connections, the, the
path you need to take to do whatwe want to do, which is, you
(57:40):
know, kind of be in charge ofour own. Our own burning,
perhaps have a native fireprogram that is just in terms of
being like, more self sufficientor a sovereign nation like be
able to have our own our ownfire crew that protects our own
homelands. So I think I yeah, Ithink people are receptive and
(58:02):
open to it. And this is theperfect time to be starting a
program like this because of thesituation that you know,
California has been in with,with the wildfires these past
few seasons and climate changeand whatnot.
Megan Kay (58:26):
Thank you for listening to the living with
fire podcast. You can find morestories about wildfire and other
resources at living withfire.com. The Living of fire
program is funded by theUniversity of Nevada, Reno,
extension, Nevada Division ofForestry, Bureau of Land
Management and the United StatesForest Service.
Welcome to the living with fire Podcast, where we
share stories and resources tohelp you live more safely with
wildfire.
Hi, I'm your host, Megan Kay andthe outreach coordinator for the
living fire program. And I'mjoined by my boss Jamie rice
gums. Hi, Jamie.
Jamie Roice-Gomes (00:34):
Hi, how's it going?
Megan Kay (00:36):
We're here today to talk about the episode you guys
are about to listen to, which isan interview with Helen Fillmore
and Brianna Jones, environmentalspecialists with the Washoe
tribe. And we got to talk tothem abou tcultural history of
burning on Washoe lands and alsogot to talk to them about some
(00:59):
great projects that they'reworking on right now up in Meeks
Meadows in Tahoe. So Jamie, you,you, you weren't able to be on
the interview. Because we got wegot busy schedules, but you were
able to listen to it. I justwanted to hear your take on it.
Jamie Roice-Gomes (01:12):
To be honest, I was I thought it was
fascinating to learn from HelenFillmore about what the the
strongest evidence for fire andcultural learning was with the
washer tribe and the elders,just how they, they cook the
pine nuts, and in how theycollect the pine nuts and, and
(01:35):
how that's related. And it justreally made me think of the
importance of ,you know, findingout information from from
previous generations like, whatthey did and how they did it.
And, and I don't want to go intothat and really kind of like
(01:56):
spoil it for the audience, butand I'm gonna bring up an
example that's completelyunrelated, but kind of related.
It just reminds me of like, youknow, my friend's grandma used
to put spearmint in her flower.
And why did she do that? She didit because the mint and
spearmint gum repels weevils.
(02:20):
Don't really know that. And soit's really, it's really
important to find out fromprevious generations, what they
did, and why they did it, andthen implement that into the
habits and the thought processand the things that you do
today. And it just, it it justresonated me. I know, it's not
really related, but I just is isimportant.
Megan Kay (02:41):
Yeah, I that is something that I have not really
thought much about either. Andthat really resonated with me
and not to spoil it, becauseit's a great interview. And but
yeah, the idea that just kindof, we've always interacted with
the land and vegetation, whetherit's harvesting, just existing
(03:02):
on a land having to create firesto survive, and the impact that
that has on the ecosystem. So itreally got me thinking about
just how humans interact withecosystems and how we've always
been doing that. Ever sincehumans were on the land and
(03:22):
measuring that. And taking thatin context is really important
when you think aboutrestoration. Because what are we
trying to restore theseecosystems to? and humans have
to be a part of that. Think thatthat logic and that that
process? So that's a long windedintro to this episode. I hope
(03:44):
you guys enjoy it. And here'sthe interview.
Rhiana Jones (04:01):
My name is Rhiana Jones. I am environmental
specialist to with the Washoetribe of Nevada in California. I
work for the EnvironmentalProtection department
Helen Fillmore (04:11):
Dawatlaume dgum dya li. Helen Fillmore
dabo tlu dgum dya li.
Pwalu dtdei li. My name isHelen Fillmore. And I'm also an
environmental specialist for theWashoe tribe. And I'm currently
or I guess, recently, our fireResilience Project Manager to
try to restore and revitalizeour cultural burning practices
(04:33):
for our within our homelands,but specifically for our
restoration projects.
Christina Restaino (04:41):
I'm Christina Restaino. I'm the
director of this esteemedprogram on the faculty at UNR.
Megan Kay (04:49):
I'm Megan Kay, I'm the outreach coordinator for the
living fire program at UNR. Sobefore we dive into the topics
of like the word, the work thatyou're doing, I wanted to Get to
know you guys a little bit. Sowhy don't we start with Rhiana?
And do you mind giving, likeletting us know how you got to
be an environmental specialist.
Rhiana Jones (05:10):
I grew up in this area. I'm Washoe and Salt River
Pima-Maricopa down from Arizona.
And I grew up on the Hung A LelTi reservation. And I went to
school in Northern California atHumboldt State for my undergrad,
I have an undergraduate degreein botany. And both my parents
were artists, I was really intonature and drawing. And so I was
(05:31):
like, I'm going to go and learnall the parts of plants and be
able to draw and really goodand, you know, become a
botanical Illustrator. But I,you know, that didn't happen, I
went another direction, and justreally got into the science of
plants and botany andenvironmental science and
conservation. And I went on toget my master's in New Mexico,
and New Mexico State University.
(05:55):
So I have a master's in plantand environmental science.
There, I studied chili peppers,which was kind of another caveat
from my plan. But after that,you know, I wanted to, to work
for one of my tribes, or anyindigenous tribe, really, to
kind of take what I learned backto my community, and you know,
(06:19):
help others, encourage others togo to school, the youth
education was really heavilyinfluenced in my family. And I
think it's really important forpeople to, you know, leave their
leave their hometown for a whileand get out and see what's out
there. And then be able to, youknow, learn some stuff and bring
it back to your community. Sothat was my plan. And, you know,
(06:42):
I, there was an opportunity towork for the Environmental
Protection department. And I'vebeen here about a year and four
months. So I'm the mix metalproject manager, I work up with
the restoration project for themaiella Water Restoration. And
we're doing some, you know,COVID kind of stops and stuff,
(07:04):
but we're doing some coniferthinning up there. And when we
started doing groundwatermonitoring, and we hope to have
a scientific publication out ofthat. So I think, what I would
like to see, and you know, whyI'm passionate about working for
the department is bringing amore, you know, scientific
aspect to some of the work we'redoing, there's, you know, a good
(07:25):
cultural aspect, but I think,you know, mixing that with
science as well, and in terms ofgetting it out into the public
and, you know, being relevant inthe scientific community is, is
what I want to see and hope for,for this project, and the
groundwater monitoringspecifically, and the cultural
burning Helen, so you can writea paper,
Helen Fillmore (07:43):
it's Goofy, I feel goofy sometimes talking
about this, I guess, like how Igot passionate about this work.
But when I was younger, we had aWashiw language immersion school
where we were taught by ourelders, and it's one of those
like one one room schoolhouseskind of a situation where there
was only 20 of us. Or so I'm notexactly sure this the whole
(08:05):
number, what not, but, um, atthe Washiw language immersion
school, we took, you know, wewere taught everything in our
language, from our elders, andthen for our science classes, we
got to learn from like expertsin the field, because we would
take these field trips up to mixmeadow, my ahlawat, that's what
(08:27):
we call it, and up to Tahoe,kind of throughout our
homelands. And they would, theway that they kind of arranged
it was that, you know, we wouldtalk to that foresters are
talked to some of the headscientists, and they would give
like these little bit ofoutreach, and at that time, it
was really awesome, because we'dbe learning from our elders kind
(08:47):
of in preparation of thosemeetings or those like, like, on
the ground experiences, and, youknow, our elders would tell us
kind of their version of it. Andthen it would be reinforced then
by what the scientists weresaying to and so it was kind of
this really, you know, it wasjust this environmental science,
(09:09):
ecology was just a disciplinethat really resonated with, like
our cultural beliefs, ourvalues, and things like that.
And so I would say my passionstart to started to develop at
that early age. And then when Igot into college, I took a
environmental management courseand my professor at that time
(09:33):
was, he was really awesome. Butthe first half of the I was at
the University of Washington inSeattle, and the first half of
the class was kind of generalmanagement and things like that.
And then the second half of theclass is Tahoe is a case study.
Because taho is one of the fewareas in the world that's
actually managed at thewatershed level. And then it's,
(09:54):
it's all these differentmemorandums of agreements
between different states andjurisdictions and things like
that. But he's It was not onlythat I realized, like, I can be
in a discipline and studysomething that's really
interesting. And that's reallyrelevant to our culture. But
then I can also study the areasthat are specific to that are
(10:19):
most important to me. And I canstudy them, you know, all the
way in Seattle, way far awayfrom home. So in so many ways,
like environmental science keptme home. And I always knew, like
I wanted to return back home.
During that time, I was alsoworking as a wildland
firefighter out of Carson City,just as a quick way to make some
good money and travel in thesummertime, and to be outside
(10:41):
and camping. And I really fellin love with that job. During
that time, I was planning onkind of pursuing that as a
career. But I, I decided, atsome point that I made a pretty
good firefighter, but that I'dmake a really great something
else. And so went back to schoolthat my Master's in hydrology,
and this position opened thiswas it, I guess, my, my interest
(11:05):
has always been more into likeresearch and kind of like what
Rianna was saying as far as,like getting more into some of
that height, like not higher,but getting more into some of
the more technical, scientificresearch areas. But with the
pandemic, I did really want tostart getting more into
(11:28):
implementation. And so took thisjob with the tribe. And yeah, I
would say, you know, as far aslike what keeps me excited, it's
like working with people likeRianna everyday somebody who
grew up in the area, who haslike, all of the personal
relationship and all of that,like cultural relationship that
(11:50):
we kind of stemmed from, butthen also has the other
perspective, too, of like, youknow, these are people that we
can work with to really makethis cultural relationship we
have that much stronger. Theseare people who can support us in
those ways. And so it's justbeen Yeah, I will say it's been.
It's, it's really an honor to beworking for, like your homelands
(12:14):
and your community directly. AndI am looking forward to what we
can build here.
Megan Kay (12:22):
I like what you said too, about the you're a good
wildland firefighter, but youwould make a great something
else. I think a lot of people ifI share that as well with just
like a little bit of wildlandfire experiences like I think
I'd be better at something else.
The you guys touched on itearlier when you were talking
about Markleville and thereservation, but do you just for
(12:43):
folks, listeners who don't knowwe're Washoe tribal lands are
Rhiana or Helen? Would you guysmind just giving a quick
overview of the of the triballands and also specifically just
the projects where the projectsare located that you guys are
working on?
Helen Fillmore (13:01):
Oh, yes. So Da ow a ga Tahoe. is the center of
our homelands and our homelandsreally kind of extend out from
there up into the north andtesters and build down south by
Mono Lake. And then kind of justdefinitely on the like Eastern
Sierra foothills, and then onthe side up into the pinenut
hills, the western side up intothe pinenut hills, and so we
(13:24):
have both kind of like thoseSierra Nevada ecosystems, and
then those Great Basinecosystems as well. Um, where
we're located currently, ourheadquarters is in Gardnerville,
Nevada, we've our reservationlands are very small compared to
(13:46):
our you know, our traditionalterritories. We have four
communities one located in hunga lel ti, in woodfords,
California Markleeville area,then one in gardnerville, and
two in Carson City. And that'swhere the I guess, about half of
(14:06):
our tribal members reside withinthose four communities. The
other half live off reservationbut the significant majority of
our authorization tribal memberslive within the area, like Reno,
Carson City, Sacramento, kind ofstill like in those those like
regular boundaries, um, and thenour project so our projects are
(14:32):
kind of tricky because we, mostof our specific projects are on
reservation lands or that's whatwe're committed to is our, like
our reservation lands or trustlands, but our biggest projects
are on Forest Service land andon viia allotment lands. And so
those are ones where we have tohave like, more official
(14:54):
agreements in place, and likewhat official funding to come in
and so The big allotment lands.
So those are our firerestoration projects and Romain
Smokey the third. He's the onewho's managing those projects.
We're getting ready to replant.
Tomorrow we're gonna startkicking off our spring planting.
(15:15):
And then the maiella watershedproject in the Tahoe Basin. We
have a couple of acres withinthe Tahoe Basin that are tribal
land, but the Milo what thatproject isn't tribal land, it's
for service land, but it's ourbiggest restoration project. And
yeah,
Megan Kay (15:32):
is that the I'm sorry, I creeped on you guys and
read your letter, the WashoeEnvironmental Protection
Department newsletter. Is thatthe what the the the project
that's described in thatnewsletters at the the Mayala
Wata or is that the MeeklsMeadow? Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
Unknown (15:52):
So I think Helen mentioned earlier Mayala Wata is
the name for Meeks Creek. Sowe're calling that whole project
that Meeks Meadow the MayalaWata restoration project. So the
Meeks Meadow and the Mayala Wataproject are the same one. I'll
pick up where Helen left off.
Yes. So the main projects we aregoing now on now like she said,
are in the Pinenut hills andMeeks Meadow but we received
some funding through its tribalwildlife grant to do a
(16:18):
resilience garden where we canbe funded to grow our own
culturally sensitive and nativerestoration plans for our own
restoration projects. So we'vetalked about there's skunk
harbor parcel up on Tahoe theincline parcel belongs to the
Washoe tribe, is that accurateto say Helen? Okay, Olympic
Valley, and then Meeks,Pinenuts, and there's also a
(16:42):
Babbitt peak parcel. So all ofthese could potentially be sites
for future restoration or, youknow, fire prevention go and
then the trees or the bushesand, you know, possibly plant
some plants up there. But I'lltalk a little bit about Meeks
since that's my main project. Sowhat we hope to do up there, you
(17:03):
know, COVID stops and stuff butthe plan with the Forest Service
and through the stewardshipagreement, and we have a lot of
other funders like the NationalFish and Wildlife, the
California Tahoe Conservancy,Taho Fund, many, many people
have contributed to this projectto to get it going. So we have
plans to thin the conifers thisyear lodgepole pines have
(17:26):
encroached on the meadow, it's300 acres of meadow and it's you
know, hardly recognizable as ameadow anymore. So to thin all
those trees and then go in anddo some culturally guided
prescribed burns, and then plantsome culturally significant
plants. Once the water tablecomes up a little bit we, you
(17:47):
know, those, what we're seeingnow through our groundwater
monitoring is that thoseconifers are just acting as
straws and sucking up all themoisture in the meadow. So we
hope to have that you know, comeback to be more Boggy and
provide you know proper habitatfor the middle plants everyone's
their culturally significantplants plants use for medicine,
(18:08):
plants for food, all theseimportant to the Washoe, Washoe
tribe and as well as basketmaking materials that are found
in the meadow.
Megan Kay (18:23):
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(19:09):
So how did you guys? How are youguys able to understand the
evidence of cultural practicesand cultural burning? Like how
did you guys come to learn aboutit? Did you guys talk to elders?
Or is there documented history?
Helen Fillmore (19:27):
One of the trickiest parts about us and
kind of about the washu tribeand our people in our community
specifically in our relationshipto fires that we I would say the
greatest evidence that we havecurrently demonstrating that
washiw people did burn precontact pre you know pre
(19:49):
colonialism is kind of the stateof our ecosystems. So I would
say that's the best evidencethat we have because we Do you
have a our homelands are locatedin areas where when settlement
started, which, for a long time,you know, we didn't get you were
(20:11):
kind of one of the latercommunities to get colonized
just because of access to theSierras. And there's so many
mountains you have to climb justto get to washiw your homelands
that it wasn't until like thelate till the gold rush. And
then when silver was found inthe Comstock Lode that we
really, like, started seeing alot of settlement. But when we
(20:32):
started seeing settlement in ourhomelands, it was significant,
and it was severe. And so andsince then, you know, I mean, we
can just mention Tahoe, at anyinternational stage, and people
would know that area, becauseit's even to this day, you know,
that the rate of tourism upthere is so high. So with the
(20:56):
influence of settlement, whyshould people have kind of,
well, I shouldn't say, I wouldsay, with the influence of
settlement, we haven't ourcommunities, our elders, our
families haven't practiced fire,the entire Tahoe Basin was clear
cut for timber production, at acertain time. And so that
completely changed the ecosystemthere. And so, you know, even
(21:22):
even finding ecological evidenceof like, how often fires might
have occurred is, is a hugestretch that we're kind of
trying to, to reconstruct andrevitalize. And so, um, but is
there, it's not that there isn'tknowledge within our
communities, or that our eldersremember, it's just that we're
(21:43):
asking them to remember thingswhen they were three, four years
old. And some of them, sometimesit's how you ask the questions,
and sometimes it's how you startthe stories and, and then what
you get from those stories, it'salso like, they might have a
story of, you know, a certainfire story about how to cook
(22:06):
pinenuts or a story about thingswhere fire would be used. And to
them, it's not, you know, we usefire for a healthy environment,
we use fire to keep our plantsstrong, it was like, Well, this
was when we used fire. And thiswas at this point, or this fire
was lit because of this otherreason, that seems completely
(22:27):
unrelated. But it also showslike they had this huge, and
like significant knowledge offire and how it would move
throughout the landscape. And sowhat we're working on right now,
really, is to try to restore inthose areas where I would, you
know, weave weave together kindof all of that best knowledge
(22:48):
that we might know, or weavetogether all of the evidence
that we might be able to find ina way that is culturally
relevant, even though it mightnot be rooted in very specific
stories or, you know, veryspecific guidelines and how it
was done previously, but waysthat it can still be culturally
(23:10):
relevant in a way that our likefuture generations can also
carry it on from now. And sothat kind of means that we're
moving a little bit slower thanwhat I think you know, even the
environment wants us to move in,when it comes to kind of
restoring what what needs tohappen and what kind of changes
(23:30):
we need to see. But at the sametime, I think it is going to be
a lot stronger, a lot strongerfoundation, if we do it right,
it'll have a lot strongerfoundation, into the future.
Megan Kay (23:41):
Thank you for, for unpacking that for me, because
like, it makes so much sense towhat you guys were talking
about, like what inspires youabout your work. And so for me
is not a scientist, but it, itmakes me It's like putting
together the pieces and usingyour science background, to come
up with the evidence and maybejust shining a light on
(24:03):
something that the scientificcommunity has, it has yet to
shine a light on, you know,using those skills that you guys
have learned and then just likeusing it to talk about
restoration, but in a cultural,with cultural context. And I
just think that's why that thisinterests me so much, because
it's kind of it's like a missingpiece of the puzzle. And I
(24:25):
wanted to follow up to and kindof ask about because you were
talking about like culturalculturally relevant plants that
you're trying to, to would it belike replant? Is that the right
term or to just rehabilitate? Doyou guys just want to share a
little bit of of that thosespecifics like what kind of
plants are you trying toemphasize and yeah, that
Rhiana Jones (24:47):
there's a list of, you know, maybe 60 plants that
were chosen as having culturalsignificance. WEPD did some work
with a cultural resourcesdepartment and some elders to
put together this list. Some ofthose plants would be Yarrow
wild onion, swamp onion, thesewere all food. Not Yarrow years
(25:11):
and medicine, mountain alder,service Berry, blueberry, green
leaf, Manzanita, early fall,some root, and sincere. A lot of
these plants all have names inWashoe. And some of them are
still up in Meeks meadow, butsome of them you don't see as
(25:31):
much. or there might be, youknow, one or two. So replanting
would be, you know, one thing wedo want to do. And that's kind
of where that resilience guardwould come in to see if we can
grow some of these culturallysignificant native plants that
you know, I don't know if youguys have ever tried to grow
native plants, but it seems likeonly Mother Earth can do it.
Megan Kay (25:51):
I was gonna say for the resilience guard, would
there is there then like a planput in place to preserve what
you guys have rehabilitated tomake sure that it's that it's a
resource for? Or is it justmeant to be sort of Is it is it
meant to be like a, anexperiment, or is it meant to be
like a usable resource, like aplace that people can go to
forage these plants,
Unknown (26:13):
it's mostly meant to be a usable resource, so that we
could, you know, as fundingallows, keep these plants
growing, and have youth andcommunity members come in and
learn how to grow these plants,and what they're used for, and
then also maybe be able to goout to rehabilitate their
homelands, you know, I thinkthat's a big, a big part of it.
(26:36):
And very important, you know, inorder for people to feel that
connection to nature is to beable to go out and do the work
themselves. So have these plantsand then give them to the
community. And, you know, maybeI think like, currently, we have
funding to have a communitymember come in and take care of
these plants. But you know, havethem go out and continue to do
(26:57):
this for years to come. I thinkthe stewardship agreement for
Meeks Meadow goes till 2028. So,you know, as long as we have
that, that timeframe, and, andthat permission to go and be
doing work in the Meadow, wewant to, you know, get as much
stuff done as we can have asmany cultural events as we can
up there, and be able to takeelders up there again, and, you
(27:18):
know, hear those stories. And,you know, maybe they remember
going up there as a kid, or, youknow, hearing stories about
their parents growing up as akid, that, you know, my hopes
are just kind of triggered thosememories by actually taking
people out. And having them youknow, do more hands on stuff
with the plants and therestoration. And, you know,
planting the plants digging inthe meadow, removing invasive
(27:40):
weeds by hand, being able toidentify those invasive weeds,
that type of thing.
Helen Fillmore (27:47):
Yeah, and I guess just to add to that, too,
because it like restoration issuch restoration itself, right
is such a intensive activity. Torestore an ecosystem ecosystem
from like a devastated orunhealthy state and get it back
to a healthy state is laborintensive, it's costly, it's,
(28:14):
it's really challenging, right.
And then you're alwaysevaluating kind of the pros and
cons of different activities,because one activity might, you
know, negatively impact adifferent activity. But when it
comes to stewardship, if we canrestore these ecosystems into a
healthy state, and then provideour, you know, restore some of
(28:36):
those cultural practices, sothat it's truly just
stewardship, and it'smaintenance at that point it
really like, then we don't haveto, you know, wait till it
regrows in 20 years, and then dothis other intensive project.
Again, we just have this ongoingmaintenance, this ongoing
stewardship of the area. And byrestoring our culturally
important plants that reallydoes kind of restore, well, we
(28:57):
have to restore the plants, butwe also have to restore the
activities that kind of reallydo improve those conditions for
those plants and improve thatconnection between our community
and that area. But if we'resuccessful at all of those
different steps, then really atthat point, our community has
everything that they need to, toreally contribute to the health
(29:21):
of the ecosystems as well as thehealth of like, our culture or
language, our you know,traditional practices or, you
know, spiritual beliefs, thingslike that. And so I think the
long term goal is that, youknow, we don't keep having that
we can restore these areas, andthen it's just, you know,
maintenance and stewardship atthat point. It's not these
(29:43):
heavy, these intensiverestoration projects. So
Megan Kay (29:50):
could you guys help paint a picture of like, what
the ecosystem used to look like,what it looks like now and then
kind of like what What you'retrying to get it to? So like,
what are these metals used tolook like? Or if you were to
experience it, what would it be?
Like?
Christina Restaino (30:07):
And and more? How did they use to? What
were the processes and thefunctions that made them
healthy? Right? Because that'show we think about healthy,
healthy ecosystems. Right is is,how were, what were the
functions that were occurringthat were evidence that they
were healthy to begin with?
Megan Kay (30:24):
Yeah, so like, three, I guess we're going on a journey
here. So it's like paintingthree pictures. So like, I guess
pre colonization, and pre seven,pre, you know, European
settlement. And then, I guess,whatever point you could
pinpoint to target, I guess,like right now, and then also
Rhiana Jones (30:44):
you know, the Comstock era, like Helen
what you're trying to get to,mentioned, changed everything.
So I believe that was around1860. So the metal previously
was a meadow prior to settlers,the combs back era, it was, you
know, still a meadow. Andtraditionally, Washoe's would
have their winter camps in theCarson Valley, and then go up to
Tahoe for their summer camps andspend the summer there hunting,
(31:07):
fishing, and, you know,gathering these medicinal
plants, and the foods that grewin the middle. So this, you
know, happened for 1000s and1000s of years. And then after
the Comstock era, they cut itall down for timber, the meadow,
I believe, was used for cattlegrazing. And so it just
completely changed theecosystem. And, you know,
(31:29):
Washoe's were driven out of LakeTahoe, they weren't allowed to
continue their seasonalmigration to and from Lake Tahoe
for their summer camps. And sothey stopped, you know,
essentially managing the land.
And when I say managing land,you know, you talked a little
bit about the history of fire.
And so when I think about that,it's like, you know, they didn't
(31:52):
call burning the meadow culturalburning, fire was just a part of
life, you had a fire. And fromwhat I've read, that fires were,
when they left, the summer campfires were left to burn. And
then we'll just kind of smallaround the area, burn whatever
trash or sticks they had cutdown or use for tools, and then
that kind of just smoldered outand kind of, you know, clean the
(32:16):
area for the next next season'suse. So there wasn't like a
bunch of buildup in trash outthere. I've also heard people
tell stories, it's like, oh,yeah, you know, my father would
burn the meadow. And I was like,Well, what was it for? Because,
again, you know, asking elder,if they did cultural burning,
you're not going to get theanswer you want. So it's, you
(32:36):
know, a process of trying to tryto ask the right questions, like
Helen said, and figure out, youknow, how they used that fire?
Was it for cooking was it for,you know, just warmth? Was it
for cooking pine nuts or dryingmaterials? You know, there's,
(32:57):
there's information there thatwe were still getting at. But I
think prior to the Comstock era,it was the seasonal migration
that essentially was the landmanagement of clearing out trees
that were in their way in theway of their camps and maybe
burning those trees. As simpleas that.
Helen Fillmore (33:15):
It's really easy to explain when you look at the
history of fire in the area tosome of the other things like
even when we're talkingspecifically about meadows, it
gets a little bit more nuanced,because people don't understand
like, oh, there's all these, youknow, basket layer plants that
won't grow if they don't haveenough water. But why does this
even matter? Because we'd rathergo up into the hills and berries
(33:38):
instead. Um, so. But when itcomes to fire in the history of
fire, like what we're seeingright now, for example, are
these huge mega fires, thenthey're spreading so rapidly,
and it's become it's a state ofemergency all summer long every
summer. And how did we get tothat situation, and it's been,
(34:01):
you know, the removal of fire,but also kind of the removal of
indigenous practices within thelands. And so the removal of
fire is a huge, like, fire is adisturbance, but it's a
necessary disturbance. Ourgathering practices are a
disturbance, but they'reunnecessary disturbance, our
cooking practices were adisturbance but unnecessary
(34:23):
disturbance that theseecosystems have also adapted to.
And so when you remove adisturbance, just like if you
remove an apex predator from theecosystem, it totally changes
that ecosystem and the health ofthat ecosystem in the way that
it functions naturally. And sofinding a way to incorporate
(34:44):
that disturbance into the thesystem again in and not just
incorporating it butincorporating it in the way that
it would lead to the health andthe like the natural state of
that ecosystem. Originally. Sothat's kind of, I would say,
(35:05):
where we're getting at as far aslike what, why restoration is
needed on these areasspecifically is because we've
removed these really importantparts of the ecosystem. And then
we've stayed hands off, and we'dleft them alone. And now these
ecosystems have grown andchanged into these really
(35:25):
unhealthy states that thencreate further devastation. And
so the meadows are a really nicearea. Um, as far as identifying
like, really, I don't want tosay easy, but the meadows are
kind of perfect opportunity tojust show how bad things get if
(35:48):
we are actively managing it. Soin forested areas, it kind of
takes a little bit longer to seehow, you know, you might do a
prescribed burn, burn, andthat'll kill some trees, and
then it just kind of like peoplewalk by, and they think it's so
sad and, and horrible for solong until it finally eventually
gets to that state. But in thesemeadows, you can look out to
(36:12):
these completely even standswhere you can't even see through
them. You wouldn't be able towalk through them, the wildlife
can't get through them. There'sno corridor, they're completely
separated. And then once thestreets establish the re of,
then the rate of establishmentjust keeps going up because
they're able like with meadows,good functioning Meadow is wet
(36:36):
enough that those coniferspecies can't grow there because
they get their drowned basicallyto get too much water and they
can't survive. But as soon asthey start to establish
themselves, and usually indrought years, they start to
soak up more and more of thatwater. And then all of a sudden,
you don't have a meadow, youhave a really dense, really
(36:57):
scary, really intense forest.
And so at that point, it doestake really heavy restoration
work to remove it and get itback to that state. But then,
because Meadows are such aannual ecosystem that even you
know, after your first year ofburning, the next spring, when
(37:17):
everything grows, all the metalplants, not all of them, but a
lot of them grow back andanything that had kind of that
seed bank that's still in thatarea grows back, and they're
luscious, and they're green, andthey're beautiful. And so it's
really a great, great focus.
Right now, I think as far askind of really trying to, to
(37:41):
restore these practices inplaces that are really like
really needed, like at acritical state right now.
Megan Kay (37:57):
Communities located in wildfire prone areas need to
take extra measures to livesafely. There are many ways to
prepare communities andproperties for wildfire,
including creating andmaintaining adequate defensible
space and hardening homes towithstand wildfire. This could
mean altering or replacingcertain components of the home.
Our wildfire home retrofit guidewill help you better prepare
your home and communities forwildfire. You can find the guide
(38:20):
in the resources section of ourwebsite at living with fire
calm.
Christina Restaino (38:30):
I want to hear a little bit more about the
fire resilience projects andthinking about the kind of, you
know, three different ecosystemtypes, if you will, right, you
have the sere data, the PJwoodland and the sagebrush
ecosystem. And so what does whatdo targets for cultural burning
(38:54):
look like in those three verysignificantly different eco
regions, if you will, that wehave here?
Helen Fillmore (39:05):
Yeah, I'm good.
I'm glad you brought that up. Sothe fire Resilience Project
really came out of the myahlawat to cultural burn,
because we're, we're really ourdepartment is like environmental
protection focused. So we don'thave like a fire suppression
focus or something like thatwithin our department. And so
when it came up that like, youknow, fire, is it a stewardship
practice? What is that going tolook like for? Like, what do we
(39:29):
what skills do we need? Whatresources do we need within this
department to then be able touse fire as a stewardship
practice on our projects forenvironmental protection? And so
that's kind of how theconversation got started and
what we're what we're lookingat, but then it's tricky in
these different ecosystems. Soagain, fire in Meadows it's
(39:50):
obvious that Meadows need to becleared out when they start when
this conifers start toencroaching encroaching on it.
In general in Sierra Nevadamixed conifer forests, it's
pretty obvious. But then inthese sagebrush woodland
ecosystems with cheatgrassinvasive species, implementing
(40:10):
fire becomes this verycomplicated thing to tackle.
Megan Kay (40:18):
Yeah, cuz isn't there, isn't there more fire
than there historically was inthose ecosystems?
Helen Fillmore (40:23):
Yes. And it's in the fires. Devastating, right?
Because pinyon pines, they'relike these little shrubs that
are close to the ground, andthey don't have a thick bark, if
fire gets to them, they're gone,for the most part. And so trying
to figure out what fire may ormay not have looked like in the
(40:44):
pilot hills is a little bittrickier. But I have some
theories I'm kind of based offof, because So the one thing
that's different about taho inthe pilot hills is that we do
have a much more recent andstronger cultural memory about
what happens in the pilot hills,because we, our family has kept
(41:06):
our like tribal allotmentproperties in the pilot hills,
because they were so significantto our culture, um, based off of
like, what we can find theydidn't, they never, you know,
just did an understory burn, ortried to do a understory burn in
the pilot hills. Based off the,I think, like, the evidence from
(41:29):
our culture, I would say theevidence from an ecological
standpoint, however, is also weget best as far as what change
happened in the mid 1850s, thatled to the Thai encroachment of
pinyon, Juniper, both kind ofinfilling within the forest
areas, and then also spreading.
So I do on a personal note forlike, some of our theories, from
(41:51):
a cultural standpoint are alittle bit stronger than what we
might be able to find out from,like a scientific or ecological
standpoint. And there isstarting to be come, they're
starting, there are some studiescoming out about it, this is
going to get kind of heavy for asecond, but studies in the
(42:12):
southwest talking aboutde-population. And so when
settlers came here, when theyfirst started showing up, our
communities were alreadydecimated, because like disease
had come before them. And itlike it followed them
beforehand, we used to have veryextensive trade routes. And so
even before we startedinteracting with settlers, we
(42:34):
were interacting with people whointeracted with who interacted
with who interacted withsettlers, and then kind of
already experiencing thatdevastation from disease. And so
we might not know what ourpopulation was pre colonization,
but we can estimate that itwould be a lot larger than what
it was when they did come here,or when they did start kind of
(42:56):
making estimates about that. Andso with that becomes a huge land
use change, right? Becausepeople aren't even there, just
less people in the environmentusing the resources. I mean, now
we have over as a countryoverpopulation, potentially, I
mean, as a world, you know,we're really putting our
(43:16):
resources that their, theircapacity to a large degree, but
in those times we were, theywere being underutilized for for
at least a few decades, right.
Before? Well, that I would saythey're still being
underutilized to what they'rekind of ecologically adapted to
(43:36):
do, because not only with washypeople, but for the nimo. And
there were the only people inthe Great Basin, the pilots were
the reason why we've been ableto survive for 1000s of years,
because it was a food storesthat you could store for
multiple years. And that you canbecause you could store it, you
could save it and store it, youcould live off of it, even if
(43:59):
there's a bad crop. So we havethese climate of this, like, you
know, hi, I always it's the mostvariable climate and almost the
world because we have so manydifferent mountain ranges, we
have hot summers and coldwinters. So both in like a
regular, you know, yearlyclimate, but then in our annual
(44:19):
we'll get some years where weget a lot of snow, and then some
years followed by no snow. Andso you have to have some sort of
a food source that you can storefor multiple years if you're
gonna live. And so these areaswere heavily heavily used by our
communities. And then when youremove people from that
situation, then they're nolonger being used.
(44:40):
So I think some of our strongestour strongest evidence of fire
and cultural burning are what,you know, what did we do to keep
those areas healthy for thefuture, and I really do think a
lot of it comes from How wegathered pine nuts, how we
(45:01):
cooked pine nuts and how westored them. And so when we
gathered pilots, we'd clean, Ishould say, not when we'd like
not past tense, but when wegather pine nuts, we clean out
the duff underneath these trees.
And that's really important,especially when you go out
there. Because if fire can getinto that duff, it can get up
into the tree really easy. So weclean out that duff, because it
(45:23):
creates kind of this clear areathat when we knock the pine nuts
under the ground, and then youcan get them. And then the other
part that we do is that we callit a bhe, but it's like a big
long stick, and then use that toknock the pine cones onto the
ground. And when you do that,you're also thinning, like
trimming the trees. Becausethese, these trees don't knock
(45:44):
them, they're not the type ofconifer that knocks like prunes
themselves. So they have to havelike to get rid of dead
branches, they need assistance.
And so when we're hitting thosetrees with that bhe, it's
getting rid of those like thosedead branches. And, you know,
(46:05):
thinning that area out. So inand of itself, even just how we
gather it, it creates a morefire resilient tree, just from
gathering alone. And then withthat duff, and that those dead
branches. So when we cook ourpine nuts, we cook them in like
earthen ovens, we cook themunder the ground. So you take
that dead duff, those thatbranches, and you use it to
(46:26):
start these, like fires to cookthe pine nuts, and you cook the
pine nuts. Um, and so then youare also getting rid of all of
the fuel that would have beenaccumulated by these original
practices. And then it wouldhave been done kind of for
months, in the fall time.
Because everybody would go upinto the pinenut hills and our
(46:46):
co worker, Shelly Wyatt, she waseven talking, we were talking
earlier this year, and she wastalking about how her her dad
would remember because everybodygo to the same camps. And so
they would look out like acrossover the hill and see like smoke
coming up, and they'll say, Oh,so and so must have just got up
here from wherever. And, andthey always knew that. So
(47:10):
something that not only did theydo it every year. But it was
something that people were socomfortable with. And they just
been, you know, the fall time upthere and even kind of into more
recent years. But now, like whatyou're saying, with cheatgrass,
I mean, I don't even know. Like,we don't know what the solution
(47:33):
is right now. Like we know thatwe're our community is
experiencing that devastation,our elders are always asking us
like, what are we doing toprotect the pinenut hills. But
with that invasive like, there,it I hate to say like, there's
not a whole lot of hope we'regoing to do our best no matter
what, um, and anything we can doto kind of help like the next
(47:55):
person that's going to have topick that up and do it to you. I
think it's worth the effort. ButBut yeah, it's a it's definitely
a tricky conversation, once westart talking about, like, fire
in the face of climate change inthe face of invasive species in
the face of things that youknow, are a little bit harder to
(48:16):
control. You know, I
Christina Restaino (48:19):
I also would think that the gathering of the
Duff and the litter and, and thebranches and everything and
burning all throughout probablykept down seedlings from
encroaching, right. So it's notonly was it making it more
resilient of fire, but it wasalso reducing kind of in growth,
(48:42):
which is becoming a problem inthose regions also now, right.
And so it's that, that dynamic,it, it reminds me, I went on a
trip in Inyo with some tribalelders there. And they were
explaining the piagi trenches onthe Jeffrey pine trees and how
(49:03):
they gather the larvae of thePandora moth. And they but
historically, they would clearthe Duff around all of the big
Jeffrey pine trees. And thoseare some of the oldest, most
kind of iconic, beautiful pinetrees that that exist on the
east side, because they wereculturally maintained for
(49:26):
generations. And you know, thosetrees have survived multiple
wildfires in the contemporaryera because of that. And so, I
think that that logic is reallysound right that that's what was
happening in the pine nuts thatit's this mix of you kind of
(49:48):
grooming the ecosystem, if youwill, managing it's and then you
know, having that ecosystemadapt to that management over
time and then you remove thatentirely and well You don't get
that anymore. The sites thatneed to be restored are the
sites where that kind of, youknow, multi generational
(50:12):
understanding of ecosystemprocess and function has been
removed. Right. And it's thatvery key, you know, whether it's
suppressing giant wildlandfires, whether it's removing
cultural practices, any of thesekind of critical maintenance
(50:32):
regimes that were occurring thatare now gone. That's why we are
working so hard to quoteunquote, restore our , our our
ecosystems is to find thatbalance again. But just like you
said, the target of what thatbalance is, is changing. So
significantly, with invasivespecies with climate change with
(50:53):
encroachment of more humans andthe wildland urban interface,
right. So, you know, bringing inthe lessons learned as much as
we can is so critical, but it ishard sometimes to feel like we
are we are keeping up with thepace and skill that's needed.
Megan Kay (51:09):
It seems like the target instead of, you know, a
ecological target should be morelike a cultural one. Or it's
like, okay, these are thebenchmarks, if we have people in
the ecosystem doing this work,like meaning work, like in
quotation marks, meaning justlike living and like
(51:32):
participating in thesepractices, then hopefully, that
would be kind of re introducingthe human disturbance, which I
thought that was just like, sobeautiful. The way you said that
the Helen are you just like thehumans are disturbance, but
they're unnecessary disturbancewhen they're living with the
land and the, the symbioticrelationship between man and you
(51:53):
know, clearing the Duff toharvest pine nuts and how, how
that shaped the land. So yeah,it seems like from a management
standpoint, I mean, it's sucks,because if you can't hit those
benchmarks of like, okay, weneed to restore this landscape
this way. But it's like, Okay,if we can have, if you can at
least, show that there is someimprovement, and there's
(52:14):
engagement, and we're gettingpeople out there again, to
engage in these practices.
Christina Restaino (52:18):
Well, and it's all sorts of human
interactions, right? Becauseit's like, we need to think
about contemporary humaninteractions in the current
system that we're engaging with,right? And, and all social
scientists, which I'm trained asan ecologist, but have worked a
lot side by side with folks inthe social sciences, you can
(52:38):
read dozens of hundreds 1000s ofacademic papers showing
ecological resilience is socialresilience, as you know, right?
There are these, you can't haveone without the other, I still
think we're having to convinceagencies and folks that this
social cultural resilience isjust as important as ecological
(53:03):
resilience, and you can't haveone without the other. And I'm
seeing all the heads, not hereon the zoom screen. But, you
know, I think that one of theissues that I tend to have is
that, you know, these planningprocesses that we need to go
through in order to implementany management actions on the
landscape takes such a longtime, that by the time we get to
(53:26):
implement them that it's like,well, now the target has
changed. And we need to berethinking how we're, you know,
yeah, it's just, we have so muchdata and science and information
and suggestions out there, wejust need to do.
Helen Fillmore (53:41):
The other part, too, is like, when it does come
to that social component. Whatwe're also facing, right is that
even, I mean, we want people toreconnect with the land, but we
want them to reconnect with itin the right ways. So like, one
of the things that we're reallystruggling with, in our pinenut
hills is like off road vehicleuse, and they they're creating
(54:02):
like way more bad disturbancethan they are any kind of good
disturbance. And, and so I thinkthat's the other part is like
making sure that we're we'retelling like the right story,
that it's not just yeah, it'snot just kind of going up there.
And I don't know, I mean,cultural appropriation has been
(54:25):
such a huge issue that we'vealso experienced that having
like that conversation can gettricky, but I think one of the
things I like about our work isthat we really do get to work
directly, like with the tribeand for the tribe. And so
everything we do really is kindof not appropriative at that
point, it really is about kindof getting doing the right
(54:47):
things that are you know, thereare families that their families
have already been doing for solong.
Megan Kay (54:53):
Yeah, and that's why we want to get like educate
people about those appropriatepractices and This is a good way
because we're already talkingabout it to transition to kind
of like this, what you guys seeis the future of fire and
stewardship. On I mean, I guessyou can, whatever you could be
in the US and the world, butalso like, specifically to some
(55:17):
Washoe lands, like how, what?
And I would, I would, I wouldask you not just like your hopes
and dreams for the history offire, but also like, based on
your experience, like workingwith inter-agencies, like what
are some successes, you've seensome inspiring things, and also
just some challenges to like,these stewardship endeavors.
Rhiana Jones (55:36):
In terms of working with other agencies, you
know, I kind of started thatprocess. And what I have found
is, when it's not fire season,they are very, very receptive
and willing, and open to workingwith tribes, and, you know, they
understand our need for wantingto bring fire back to the land.
(55:57):
You know, talking about culturalburning a prescribed fire, it's
gotten a lot of I don't know,what's the word, momentum this
year with respect to Californiabeing on fire. And, you know,
just kind of rethinking aboutour land practices, not just as
a tribe, or as an indigenousperson, but as somebody who
(56:19):
lives in California, or somebodylives in the Great Basin, just,
you know, like, what we'redoing, you know, isn't working
any longer, it might have workedin the past with suppressing
fire. But now it's gotten to thepoint where these forests are so
overgrown that it's like, okay,let's take a step back and look
at maybe how, you know,indigenous people managed land
(56:40):
before and if this is the rightdirection to go. So they've been
very open and receptive. We'vealso been very fortunate to have
other tribes come and dotraining for our community, the
Greenville ranch area, and DannyManning. And then also bill
Tripp from the karuk tribe inNorthern California. And Ron
(57:03):
goode from I believe the is Eastfork, Mono, or is it mono I
never Mono, mono's a disease,right?
Christina Restaino (57:14):
They always say Mono is a disease, it's
Mono!
Rhiana Jones (57:18):
Right? My dad better not hear this, it's gonna
give it to me. So those tribesand those particular people have
been have been working towardsthis goal for some years,
they've, they have, you know,the proper connections, the, the
path you need to take to do whatwe want to do, which is, you
(57:40):
know, kind of be in charge ofour own. Our own burning,
perhaps have a native fireprogram that is just in terms of
being like, more self sufficientor a sovereign nation like be
able to have our own our ownfire crew that protects our own
homelands. So I think I yeah, Ithink people are receptive and
(58:02):
open to it. And this is theperfect time to be starting a
program like this because of thesituation that you know,
California has been in with,with the wildfires these past
few seasons and climate changeand whatnot.
Megan Kay (58:26):
Thank you for listening to the living with
fire podcast. You can find morestories about wildfire and other
resources at living withfire.com. The Living of fire
program is funded by theUniversity of Nevada, Reno,
extension, Nevada Division ofForestry, Bureau of Land
Management and the United StatesForest Service.
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