September 29, 2021 • 60 mins
For centuries, the Washoe Tribe migrated seasonally between the Carson Valley and Lake Tahoe. Their presence on the land and cultural practices helped mitigate wildfire risk, as well as enhance wildlife and resilience to drought.
For more full episode details including the transcript, visit https://www.buzzsprout.com/1819551/episodes/9281800
We interviewed Rhiana Jones, Interim Director of the Washoe Environmental Protection Department, and Washoe Tribal Council member Helen Fillmore. They helped to shed light on how the forced removal of Washoe people and their practices from the land has impacted ecosystems. They also discussed how the MÁYALA WÁTA Restoration Project aims to restore and preserve Meeks Meadow by integrating traditional knowledge and culturally guided burning practices into current land management strategies.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Megan Kay (00:00):
Hey, welcome to the Living with Fire Podcast where
(00:21):
we share stories and resourcesto help you live more safely
with wildfire. Hi, I'm yourhost. Megan Kay, the Outreach
Coordinator for the Living withFire Program, and I'm joined by
my boss, Jamie Roice-Gomes, Hi,Jamie.
Jamie Roice-Gomes (00:34):
Hi. How's it going?
Megan Kay (00:36):
We're here today to talk about the episode you guys
are about to listen to, which isan interview with Helen Fillmore
and Rhiana Jones, environmentalspecialists with the Washoe
Tribe. And we got to talk tothem about cultural history of
burning on Washoe lands. Andalso got to talk to them about
(00:58):
some great projects that they'reworking on right now up in Meeks
Meadows in Tahoe. So Jamie, you,you, you weren't able to be on
the interview because we got, wegot busy schedules, but you were
able to listen to it. I justwanted to hear your take on it.
Jamie Roice-Gomes (01:12):
To be honest, I was, I thought it was
fascinating to learn from HelenFillmore about what the
strongest evidence for fire andcultural burning was with the
Washoe Tribe and the elders,just how they they cook the pine
nuts, and how they collect thepine nuts and and how that's
(01:35):
related. And it just really mademe think of the importance of,
you know, finding outinformation from from previous
generations, like what they didand how they did it, and, and I
don't want to go into that andreally kind of like spoil it for
(01:57):
the audience, but, and I'm goingto bring up an example it's
completely unrelated, but kindof related. It just reminds me
of, like, you know, my friend'sgrandma used to put spearmint in
her flour. And why did she dothat? She did it because the
mint in spearmint gum repelsweevils. Folks don't really know
(02:20):
that, and so it's really, it'sreally important to find out
from previous generations whatthey did and why they did it,
and then implement that into thehabits and the thought process
and the things that you dotoday. And it just either, it
just resonated me. I know it'snot really related, but it just
is, is important.
Megan Kay (02:41):
Yeah, I that is something that I have not really
thought much about, either, andthat really resonated with me.
And not to spoil it, becauseit's a great interview, I know,
but yeah, the idea that justkind of, we've always interacted
with the land and vegetation,whether it's harvesting, just
(03:02):
existing on the land, having tocreate fires to survive, and the
impact that that has on theecosystem. So it really got me
thinking about just how humansinteract with ecosystems, and
how we've always been doingthat, ever since humans were on
the land. And measuring that,and taking that in in context,
(03:27):
is really important when youthink about restoration. Because
what are we trying to restorethese ecosystems to? And humans
have to be a part of that thinkthat that logic and that that
process. So anyway, that's along winded intro to this
episode. I hope you guys enjoyit, and here's the interview.
Rhiana Jones (04:01):
My name is Rihanna Jones. I am environmental
specialist too with the WashoeTribe of Nevada in California. I
work for the EnvironmentalProtection Department
Helen Fillmore (04:17):
My name is Helen Fillmore, and I am also an
environmental specialist for theWashoe tribe. And I am
currently, or I guess, recently,our Fire Resilience Project
Manager to try to restore andrevitalize our cultural burning
practices for our within ourhomelands, but specifically for
(04:39):
our restoration projects.
Christina Restaino (04:41):
I'm Christina Restaino, I'm the
director of this esteemedprogram and on the faculty at
UNR.
Megan Kay (04:49):
I'm Megan Kay, I'm the Outreach Coordinator for the
Living with Fire Program at UNR.
So before we dive into thetopics of like the work, the
work that you're doing, I wantedto get to know you guys a little
bit. So why don't we start withRhiana, and do you mind giving
like, letting us know how yougot to be an environmental
specialist.
Rhiana Jones (05:10):
I grew up in this area. I'm Washoe and Salt River,
Pima-Maricopa, down fromArizona, and I grew up on the
Hung A Lel Ti reservation, and Iwent to school in Northern
California at Humboldt State formy undergrad. I have an
undergraduate degree in botany,and both my parents were
artists. I was really intonature and drawing, and so I was
(05:33):
like, I'm going to go and learnall the parts of plants and be
able to draw them really goodand, you know, become a
botanical illustrator. But I,you know, that didn't happen. I
went another direction, and justreally got into the science of
plants and botany andenvironmental science and
conservation. And I went on toget my masters in New Mexico at
(05:53):
New Mexico State University. Andso I have a master's in plant
and environmental science there.
I studied chile peppers, whichwas kind of another caveat from
my plan. But after that, youknow, I wanted to to work for
one of my tribes, or anyindigenous tribe, really, to
kind of take what I learned backto my community and, you know,
(06:17):
help others, encourage others togo to school. The youth
education was really heavilyinfluenced in my family, and I
think it's really important forpeople to, you know, leave their
leave their hometown for a whileand get out and see what's out
there, and then be able to, youknow, learn some stuff and bring
(06:38):
it back to your community. Sothat was my plan. And, you know,
I there was an opportunity towork for the Environmental
Protection Department, and I'vebeen here about a year and four
months. So I'm the Meeks MeadowProject Manager. I work up with
the restoration project for theMáyala Wáta Restoration, and
we're doing some, you know,COVID kind of stops and stuff,
(07:02):
but we're doing some coniferthinning up there, and where we
started doing groundwatermonitoring, and we hope to have
a scientific publication out ofthat. So I think what I would
like to see, and you know whyI'm passionate about working for
the Department, is bringing amore, you know, scientific
aspect to some of the work we'redoing. There's, you know, a good
(07:23):
cultural aspect, but I think,you know, mixing that with
science as well, and in terms ofgetting it out into the public
and, you know, being relevant inthe scientific community is, is
what I want to see and hope for,for this project, and the
groundwater monitoringspecifically, and the cultural
burning Helen so you can write apaper.
Helen Fillmore (07:43):
It's goofy. I feel goofy sometimes talking
about this, I guess, like how Igot passionate about this work.
But when I was younger, we had aWashoe language immersion school
where we were taught by ourelders. And it's one of those,
like one one room school houses,kind of a situation where there
was only 20 of us or so. I'm notexactly sure this the whole
(08:05):
number, whatnot, but at theWashoe language immersion
school, we took, you know, wewere taught everything in our
language from our elders. Andthen for our science classes, we
got to learn from like expertsin the field, because we would
take these field trips up toMeeks Meadow Máyala Wáta, is
(08:26):
what we call it, and up toTahoe, kind of throughout our
homelands. And they would, theway that they kind of arranged
it was that, you know, we wouldtalk to the head foresters, or
talk to some of the headscientists, and they would give,
like, these little bit ofoutreach. And at that time, it
was really awesome, because we'dbe learning from our elders,
(08:47):
kind of in preparation of thosemeetings, or those like, like on
the ground experiences. And youknow, our elders would tell us,
kind of their version of it, andthen it would be reinforced,
then by what the scientists weresaying, too. And so it was kind
of this, really, you know, itwas just this environmental
(09:09):
science. Ecology was just adiscipline that really resonated
with, like, our culturalbeliefs, our values, things like
that. And so I would say mypassion start to started to
develop at that early age. Andthen when I got into college, I
took a Environmental Managementcourse, and my professor at that
(09:33):
time was, he was really awesome,but the first half of the I was
at the University of Washingtonin Seattle, and the first half
of the class was kind of generalmanagement and things like that.
And then the second half of theclass, he used Tahoe as a case
study, because Tahoe is one ofthe few areas in the world
that's actually managed at thewatershed level. And then it's
(09:54):
it's all these differentmemorandums of agreements
between different states andjurisdictions and things like
that. But he's it was, not onlydid I realize, like, I can be in
a discipline and study somethingthat's really interesting and
that's really relevant to ourculture, but then I can also
(10:14):
study the areas that arespecific to, that are most
important to me, and I can studythem, you know, all the way in
Seattle, way far away from home.
So in so many ways, likeenvironmental science kept me
home, and I always knew like Iwanted to return back home.
During that time, I was alsoworking as a wildland
firefighter out of Carson City,just as a quick way to make some
(10:37):
good money and travel in thesummertime and to be outside and
camp and and I really fell inlove with that job during that
time. Was planning on kind ofpursuing that as a career, but I
I decided at some point that Imade a pretty good firefighter,
but that I'd make a really greatsomething else. And so went back
(10:58):
to school, got my masters inhydrology, and this position
opened. This wasn't, I guess mymy interest has always been more
into, like, research and kindof, like what Rhiana was saying,
as far as, like, getting moreinto some of that high, like,
not higher, but getting moreinto some of the more technical,
(11:19):
scientific research areas, butwith the pandemic, I did really
want to start getting more intoimplementation, and so took this
job with the tribe. And yeah, Iwould say, you know, as far as,
like, what keeps me excited?
It's like working with peoplelike Rihanna every day, somebody
(11:42):
who grew up in the area who has,like, all of the personal
relationship and all of that,like cultural relationship that
we kind of stem from, but thenalso has the other perspective
too, of like, you know, theseare people that we can work With
to really make this culturalrelationship we have that much
(12:03):
stronger. These are people whocan support us in those ways.
And so it's just been, yeah, Iwould say it's been, it's, it's
really an honor to be workingfor, like your homelands and
your community directly. And Iam looking forward to what we
can build here.
Megan Kay (12:22):
I like what you said, too about the you're a good
wildland firefighter, but youwould make a great something
else. I think a lot of people, Ishare that as well with just
like, a little bit of wildlandfire experience. So it's like, I
think I'd be better at somethingelse. The you guys, you guys
touched on it earlier, when youwere talking about Markleeville
(12:42):
and the reservation. But do youjust, for folks, listeners who
don't know where Washoe triballands are, Rhiana or Helen,
Would you guys mind just givinga quick overview of the of the
tribal lands and also,specifically just the projects
where the projects are locatedthat you guys are working on?
Helen Fillmore (13:01):
Oh yes. Oh, yes.
So dáɁaw Tahoe is the center ofour homelands. And our homelands
really kind of extend out fromthere up into the north and to
Susanville down South by MonoLake, and then kind of just
definitely on the like EasternSierra Foothills, and then on
the side up into the Pine NutHills, the western side, up into
the Pine Nut Hills. And so wehave both, kind of like those
(13:24):
Sierra Nevada ecosystems andthen those Great Basin
ecosystems as well. Where we'relocated. Currently, our
headquarters is in Gardnerville,Nevada. We've our reservation
lands are very small compared toour you know, our traditional
(13:46):
territories. We have fourcommunities, one located in Hung
A Lel Ti, the in Woodford,California, Markleeville area,
then one in Gardnerville, andtwo in Carson City. And that's
where the I guess about half ofour tribal members reside within
(14:06):
those four communities. Theother half live off reservation.
But the significant majority ofour off reservation tribal
members live within the arealike Reno, Carson City,
Sacramento, kind of still likein those, those, like, regular
boundaries, and then ourproject. So our projects are
(14:30):
kind of tricky, because we, mostof our specific projects are on
reservation lands, or that'swhat we're committed to is our,
like, our reservation lands fortrust lands, but our biggest
projects are on forest serviceland and on BIA allotment lands.
And so those are ones where wehave to have, like, more
(14:51):
official agreements in place,and like more official funding
to come in. And so. And the BIAallotment lands, those are our
fire restoration projects, andRomaine Smokey III, he's the one
who's managing those projects.
And we're getting ready toreplant. Tomorrow. We're going
(15:13):
to start kicking off our springplanting, and then the Máyala
Wáta Project and the TahoeBasin. We have a couple of acres
within the Tahoe basin that aretribal land, but the Máyala Wáta
Project isn't tribal land. It'sforest service land, but it's
our biggest restoration project.
And yeah,
Megan Kay (15:32):
Is that the, sorry, I creeped, I creeped on you guys
and read your read the WashoeEnvironmental Protection
Department newsletter. Is thatthe, what, the the the project
that's described in thatnewsletter? Is that the the
Máyala Wáta, or is that the the?
Helen Fillmore (15:49):
The Meeks Meadow? Yeah.
Megan Kay (15:52):
Cool.
Rhiana Jones (15:52):
So I think Helen mentioned earlier, Máyala Wáta
is the name for Meeks Creek. Sowe're calling that whole project
in Meeks Meadow, the Máyala Wátarestoration project. So the
Meeks Meadow and the Máyala WátaProject are the same one. I'll
pick up where Helen left off.
Yes. So the main projects wehave going on now, like she
said, are in the Pine Nut Hillsand Meeks Meadow, but we
received some funding throughit's a tribal wildlife grant to
(16:17):
do a resilience garden, where wecan be funded to grow our own
culturally sensitive and nativerestoration plans for our own
restoration projects. So we'vetalked about, there's this Skunk
Harbor parcel up on Tahoe. TheIncline parcel belongs to the
Washoe Tribe. Is that accurateto say Helen? Okay, Olympic
(16:38):
Valley, and then Meek's, PineNut's, and there's also a
Babbitt Peak parcel. So all ofthese could potentially be sites
for future restoration or, youknow, fire prevention go and
thin the trees or the bushes,and, you know, possibly plant
some plants up there. But I'lltalk a little bit about Meek's,
(16:58):
since that's my main project. Sowhat we hope to do up there, you
know, COVID stops and stuff, butthe plan with the Forest Service
and through the stewardshipagreement, and we have a lot of
other funders, like the NationalFish and Wildlife the
California, Tahoe Conservancy,Tahoe fund, many, many people
have contributed to this projectto to get it going. So we have
(17:20):
plans to thin the conifers. Thisyear, lodgepole pines have
encroached on the meadow. It's300 acres of meadow, and it's,
you know, hardly recognizable asa meadow anymore. So to thin all
those trees, and then go in anddo some culturally guided
prescribed burns, and then plantsome culturally significant
(17:42):
plants once the water tablecomes up a little bit. We, you
know, those, what we're seeingnow through our groundwater
monitoring is that thoseconifers are just acting as
straws and sucking up all themoisture in the meadow. So we
hope to have that, you know,come back to be more boggy and
provide, you know, properhabitat for the meadow plants
(18:05):
that were once there, culturallysignificant plants, plants used
for medicine, plants for food.
All these important to theWashoe Tribe and as well as
basket making materials that arefound in the meadow.
Megan Kay (18:23):
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(19:09):
How did you guys, how were youguys able to understand the
evidence of cultural practicesand cultural burning like, how
did you guys come to learn aboutit. Did you guys talk to elders,
or is there documented history?
Helen Fillmore (19:26):
One of the trickiest parts about us and
kind of about the Washoe tribeand our people in our community
specifically, and ourrelationship to fire, is that
we, I would say, the greatestevidence that we have currently
demonstrating that Washoe peopledid burn, pre-contact, pre, you
(19:49):
know, pre-colonialism is kind ofthe state of our ecosystems. So
I would say that's the bestevidence that we have, because
we do have a, our homelands arelocated in areas where, when
settlement started, which for along time, you know, we didn't
(20:10):
get we're kind of one of thelater communities to get
colonized, just because ofaccess to the Sierras. And
there's so many mountains youhave to climb just to Washoe
homelands, that it wasn't until,like the late till the gold
rush, and then when silver wasfound in the Comstock Lode, that
we really like, started seeing alot of settlement. But when we
(20:32):
started seeing settlement in ourhomelands, it was significant,
and it was severe and so andsince then, you know, I mean, we
can just mention Tahoe at anyinternational stage, and people
would know that area, becauseit's even to this day, you know
that the rate of tourism upthere is is so high. So with the
(20:56):
influence of settlement Washoepeople have kind of, well, I
shouldn't say, I would say, withthe influence of settlement, we
haven't our communities, ourelders, our families, haven't
practiced fire. The entire Tahoebasin was clear cut for timber
production at a certain time,and so that completely changed
(21:17):
the ecosystem there. And so, youknow, even, even finding
ecological evidence of, like,how often fires might have
occurred is, is a huge stretchthat we're kind of trying to to
reconstruct and revitalize andso, but is there? It's not that
(21:37):
there isn't knowledge within ourour communities, or that our
elders remember. It's just thatwe're asking them to remember
things when they were three,four years old, and some of
them, sometimes it's how you askthe questions, and sometimes
it's how you start the storiesand and then what you get from
those stories. It's also likethey might have a story of, you
(22:04):
know, a certain fire, storyabout how to cook pine nuts, or
a story about things where firewould be used and to them, it's
not, you know, we use fire for ahealthy environment. We use fire
to keep our plants strong. Itwas like, Well, this was when we
used fire, and this, it was atthis point, or this fire was lit
(22:24):
because of this other reasonthat seems completely unrelated,
but it also shows like they hadthis huge and like significant
knowledge of fire and how itwould move throughout the
landscape. And so what we'reworking on right now really is
to try to restore in those areaswhere I would you know, we've
(22:45):
we've together, kind of all ofthat best knowledge that we
might know, or weave togetherall of the evidence that we
might be able to find in a waythat is culturally relevant,
even though It might not berooted in very specific stories,
or, you know, very specificguidelines and how it was done
(23:07):
previously, but ways that it canstill be culturally relevant in
a way that our like futuregenerations can also carry it on
from now and so it kind of meansthat we're moving a little bit
slower than what I think, youknow, even the environment wants
us to move in when it comes tokind of restoring what what
(23:28):
needs to happen and what kind ofchanges we need to see, but at
the same time, I think it isgoing to be a lot stronger, a
lot stronger foundation. If wedo it right, it'll have a lot
stronger foundation into
Megan Kay (23:40):
Thank you for for unpacking that for me. Because,
like, it makes so much sense towhat you guys were talking
about, like, what inspires youabout your work, and so for me,
as I'm not a scientist, but itit makes me it's like putting
together the pieces and usingyour science background to come
up with the evidence and maybejust shining a light on
(24:03):
something that the scientificcommunity has, it has yet to
shine a light on, you know,using those skills that you guys
have learned, and then, justlike, using it to talk about
restoration, but in a culturalwith a cultural context, and I
just, I think that's why thatthis interests me so much,
because it's kind of, it's likea missing piece of the puzzle.
(24:25):
And I wanted to follow up too,and kind of ask about, because
you were talking about, like,culture, culturally relevant
plants that you're trying to to,would it be like, replant? Is
that the right term or to justrehabilitate? Do you guys just
want to share a little bit of ofthat, those specifics, like,
Rhiana Jones (24:47):
There's a list of, you know, maybe 60 plants that
what kind of plants are youtrying to emphasize? And, yeah,
that.
were chosen as having culturalsignificance. WEPD did some work
with the cultural resourcesdepartment and some elders to
put together this list. Some ofthose plants would be yarrow,
wild onion, swamp onion. Thesewere all food, not yarrow,
(25:07):
yarrow is a medicine, mountainalder, service berry, blueberry,
green leaf, manzanita, earlybalsam root, incense cedar, a
lot of these plants all havenames in Washoe, and some of
them are still up in MeeksMeadow. But some of them, you
don't see as much, or theremight be, you know, one or two.
(25:28):
So replanting would be, youknow, one thing we do want to
do, and that's kind of wherethat resilience garden would
Megan Kay (25:35):
I was gonna say for the resilience guard would
come in to see if we can growsome of these culturally
significant native plants that,you know, I don't know if you
guys have ever tried to grownative plants, but it seems like
only Mother Earth can do it.
there? Is there then like a planput in place to preserve what
(25:57):
you guys have rehabilitated, tomake sure that it's a that it's
a resource for or is it justmeant to be sort of, is it? Is
it meant to be like a anexperiment? Or is it meant to be
like a usable resource, like aplace people can go to forage
these plants?
Rhiana Jones (26:13):
It's mostly meant to be a usable resource so that
we could, you know, as fundingallows keep these plants growing
and have youth and communitymembers come in and learn how to
grow these plants and whatthey're used for, and then also
maybe be able to go out torehabilitate their homelands,
you know, I think that's a big,a big part of it, and very
(26:37):
important, you know, in orderfor people to feel that
connection to nature is to beable to go out and do the work
themselves. So have these plansand then give them to the
community. And, you know, maybeI think, like Currently, we have
funding to have a communitymember come in and take care of
these plants. But, you know,have them go out and continue to
do this for years to come. Ithink the stewardship agreement
(27:00):
for Meeks Meadow goes till 2028,so, you know, as long as we have
that, that time frame and andthat permission to go and be
doing work in the meadow, wewant to, you know, get as much
stuff done as we can, have asmany cultural events as we can
up there. Be able to take eldersup there again. And, you know,
hear those stories. And, youknow, maybe they remember going
(27:22):
up there as a kid, or, you know,hearing stories about their
parents going up as a kid that,you know, my hopes are just kind
of trigger those memories byactually taking people out and
having them, you know, do morehands on stuff with the plants
and the restoration and, youknow, planting the plants,
digging in the meadow, removinginvasive weeds by hand, being
(27:42):
able to identify those invasiveweeds, that type of thing.
Helen Fillmore (27:47):
Yeah, and I guess, just to add to that too,
because it like restoration issuch restoration itself, right?
Is such a intensive activity torestore an ecosystem, ecosystem
from like a devastated orunhealthy state and get it back
to a healthy state is laborintensive. It's costly, it's
(28:14):
it's really challenging, right?
And then you're alwaysevaluating kind of the pros and
cons of different activities.
Because one activity might, youknow, negatively impact a
different activity. But when itcomes to stewardship, if we can
restore these ecosystems into ahealthy state and then provide,
(28:36):
or, you know, restore some ofthose cultural practices so that
it's truly just stewardship andit's maintenance. At that point
it really like, then we don'thave to, you know, wait till it
regrows in 20 years and then dothis other intensive project.
Again, we just have this ongoingmaintenance, this ongoing
stewardship of the area, and byrestoring our culturally
important plants, that reallydoes kind of restore, well, we
(29:01):
have to restore the plants, butwe also have to restore the
activities that kind of reallydo improve those conditions for
those plants and improve thatconnection between our community
and that area. But if we'resuccessful at all of those
different steps, then really, atthat point, our community has
everything that they need to toreally contribute to the health
(29:23):
of the ecosystems as well as thehealth of, like, our culture,
our language, our, you know,traditional practices, our, you
know, spiritual beliefs, thingslike that. And so I think the
long term goal is that, youknow, we don't keep having that
we can restore these areas, andthen it's just, you know,
maintenance and stewardship atthat point. It's not these
(29:46):
heavy, these intensiverestoration projects.
Megan Kay (29:50):
Could you guys help paint a picture of, like, what
the ecosystem used to look like,what it looks like now and then,
kind of like what. And whatyou're trying to get it to so
like, what, what did thesemeadows used to look like? Or,
if you were to experience it,what would it be like?
Christina Restaino (30:07):
And and more, how did they used to what
were the processes and thefunctions that made them
healthy? Right? Because that'show we think about healthy,
healthy ecosystems, right? Is,is, how were, what were the
functions that were occurringthat were evidence that they
were healthy to begin with.
Megan Kay (30:24):
Yeah, so, like, three, I guess we're going on a
journey here. So we're like,painting three pictures. So
like, I guess pre colonizationand pre settle, pre, you know,
European settlement, and then Iguess whatever point you could
pinpoint to target, I guess,like right now and then also
what you're trying to get to.
Rhiana Jones (30:45):
You know, the Comstock era, like Helen
mentioned, changed everything.
So I believe that was around1860 so the meadow previously
was a meadow, prior to settlersthe Comstock era, it was, you
know, still a meadow. Andtraditionally, Washoes would
have their winter camps in theCarson Valley, and then go up to
Tahoe for their summer camps andspend the summer there, hunting,
(31:07):
fishing and, you know, gatheringthese medicinal plants and the
foods that grew in the meadow.
So this, you know, happened for1000s and 1000s of years, and
then after the Comstock era,they cut it all down for timber.
The meadow, I believe, was usedfor cattle grazing. And so it
just completely changed theecosystem. And, you know,
(31:29):
Washoes were driven out of LakeTahoe. They weren't allowed to
continue their seasonalmigration to and from Lake Tahoe
for their summer camps. And sothey stopped, you know,
essentially managing the land.
And when I say managing theland, you know, you talked or
asked a little bit about thehistory of fire. And so when I
think about that, it's like, youknow, they didn't call burning
(31:52):
the meadow cultural burning.
Fire was just a part of life.
You had a fire. And from whatI've read that fires were when
they left the summer camp, fireswere left to burn, and then it
would just kind of smolderaround the area, burn whatever
trash or sticks they had cutdown or used for tools, and then
that kind of just smoldered outand kind of, you know, cleaned
(32:14):
the area for the next, season'suse, so there wasn't like, a
bunch of buildup and trash outthere. I've also heard people
tell stories. It's like, ohyeah, you know, my father would
burn the meadow. And I was like,Well, what was it for? Because,
again, you know, asking an elderif they did cultural burning,
you're not going to get theanswer you want. So it's, you
(32:37):
know, a process of trying totrying to, trying to ask the
right questions, like Helensaid, and figure out, you know,
how they use that fire. Was itfor cooking? Was it for, you
know, just warmth? Was it forcooking pine nuts or drying
materials? You know, there's,there's information there that
we were still getting at. But Ithink prior to the Comstock era,
(33:00):
it was the seasonal migrationthat essentially was the land
management of clearing out treesthat were in their way, in the
way of their camps, and maybeburning those trees. As simple
as that.
Helen Fillmore (33:15):
It's really easy to explain when you look at the
history of fire in the area too.
Some of the other things, like,even when we're talking
specifically about meadows, itgets a little bit more nuanced,
because people don't understand,like, oh, there's all these, you
know, vascular plants that won'tgrow if they don't have enough
water. But why do those evenmatter? Because we'd rather go
up into the hills and eatberries instead. So. But when it
(33:37):
comes to fire, and the historyof fire, like what we're seeing
right now, for example, arethese huge, mega fires, then
they're spreading so rapidly,and it's become, it's a state of
emergency all summer long, everysummer. And how did we get to
that situation? And it's been,you know, the removal of fire,
(34:01):
but also kind of the removal ofindigenous practices within the
lands. And so the removal offire is a huge like fire is a
disturbance, but it's anecessary disturbance. Our
gathering practices are adisturbance, but they're a
necessary disturbance. Ourcooking practices were a
disturbance, but a necessarydisturbance that these
(34:23):
ecosystems have also adapted to.
And so when you remove adisturbance, just like if you
remove an apex predator from theecosystem, it totally changes
that ecosystem and the health ofthat ecosystem in the way that
it functions naturally. And sofinding a way to incorporate
(34:44):
that disturbance into the thesystem, again, in and not just
incorporating it, butincorporating it in the way that
it would lead to the health andthe like the natural state of
that ecosystem originally. Andso that's kind of, I would say,
(35:05):
where we're getting at as faras, like, what why restoration
is needed on these areasspecifically, is because we've
removed these really importantparts of the ecosystem, and then
we've stayed hands off, andwe've left them alone. And now
these ecosystems have grown andchanged into these really
(35:25):
unhealthy states that thencreate further devastation. And
so the meadows are a really nicearea. As far as identifying
like, really, I don't want tosay easy, but the meadows are a
kind of perfect opportunity tojust show how bad things get if
(35:48):
we aren't actively managing it.
So in forested areas, it kind oftakes a little bit longer to see
how, you know, you might do aprescribed burn and that'll kill
some trees. And then it justkind of like people walk by and
they think it's so sad and andhorrible for so long, until it
finally, eventually gets to thatstate. But in these meadows, you
can look out to thesecompletely. Even stands where
(36:13):
you can't even see through them.
You wouldn't be able to walkthrough them. The wildlife can't
get through them. There's nocorridor. They're completely
separated. And then once thosetrees establish, the rate of
then the rate of establishmentjust keeps going up because
they're able, like with meadows,good functioning meadow is wet
(36:36):
enough that those coniferspecies can't grow there,
because they get they'redrowned. Basically, they get too
much water and they can'tsurvive. But as soon as they
start to establish themselves,and usually in drought, drought
years, they start to suck upmore and more of that water, and
then all of the sudden you don'thave a meadow, you have a really
(36:56):
dense, really scary, reallyintense forest. And so at that
point, it does take really heavyrestoration work to remove it
and get it back to that state.
But then, because meadows aresuch a annual ecosystem that
even you know, after your firstyear of burning, the next
(37:17):
spring, when everything grows,all the meadow plants, not all
of them, but a lot of them growback. And anything that had kind
of that seed bank that's stillin that area grows back in their
luscious and they're green andthey're beautiful. And so it's
really a great, a great focusright now, I think, as far as
kind of really trying to torestore these practices in
(37:41):
places that are really like,really need it, like at a
critical state right now,
Megan Kay (37:57):
Communities located in wildfire prone areas need to
take extra measures to livesafely. There are many ways to
prepare communities andproperties for wildfire,
including creating andmaintaining adequate defensible
space and hardening homes towithstand wildfire. This could
mean altering or replacingcertain components of the home.
Our wildfire home retrofit guidewill help you better prepare
your home and communities forwildfire. You can find the guide
(38:20):
and resources section of ourwebsite at livingwithfire.com.
Christina Restaino (38:23):
I want to hear a little bit more about the
Fire Resilience Project andthinking about the kind of, you
know, three different ecosystemtypes, if you will, right, you
(38:44):
have the Sierra Nevada, the PJWoodland and the Sagebrush
Ecosystem. And so what does,what do targets for cultural
burning look like in those threevery significantly different eco
regions, if you will, that wehave here.
Helen Fillmore (39:05):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. So the Fire
Resilience Project really cameout of the Máyala Wáta cultural
burn, because we're we reallyour department is like
environmental protectionfocused, so we don't have like a
fire suppression focus, orsomething like that within our
department. And so when it cameup that, like, you know, fire is
a stewardship practice, what isthat going to look like for
(39:30):
like, what do we what skills dowe need? What resources do we
need within this department tothen be able to use fire as a
stewardship practice on ourprojects for environmental
protection, and so that's kindof how the conversation got
started, and what we're whatwe're looking at. But then it's
tricky in these differentecosystems. So again, fire and
(39:51):
meadows, it's obvious thatmeadows need to be cleared out
when they start, when thoseconifers start to encroaching,
encroaching on them, and.
Christina Restaino (40:00):
Even in general, in Sierra Nevada mixed
conflict forest, it's prettyobvious. But then in these sage
brush woodland ecosystems withcheatgrass invasive species,
implementing fire becomes thisvery complicated thing to
tackle.
Megan Kay (40:18):
Yeah, because isn't there? Isn't there more fire
than there historically was inthose ecosystems?
Helen Fillmore (40:23):
Yes, and it's and the fire's devastating,
right? Because pinyon pines,they're like these little shrubs
that are close to the ground.
They don't have a thick bark. Iffire gets to them, they're gone
for the most part. And so tryingto figure out what fire may or
may not have looked like in thePine Nut Hills is a little bit
(40:44):
trickier, but I have sometheories, kind of based off of
because so the one thing that'sdifferent about Tahoe and the
Pine Nut Hills is that we dohave a much more recent and
stronger cultural memory aboutwhat happens in the Pine Nut
Hills, because we, our families,kept our, like, tribal allotment
(41:06):
properties in the Pine Nut Hillsbecause they were so significant
to our culture, based off of,like, what we can find, they
didn't. They never, you know,just did an understory burn, or
tried to do an understory burnin the Pine Nut Hills. Based off
the I think, like the evidencefrom our culture, I would say
(41:29):
the evidence from an ecologicalstandpoint, however, is also
weak at best. As far as whatchange happened in the mid 1850s
that led to this highencroachment of Pinyon-Juniper,
both kind of in filling withinthe forest areas and then also
spreading. So I do, on apersonal note, feel like some of
(41:50):
our theories from a culturalstandpoint, are a little bit
stronger than what we might beable to find out from a like a
scientific or ecologicalstandpoint. And there is
starting to be come they'restarting. There are some studies
coming out about this is goingto get kind of heavy for a
(42:11):
second, but studies in thesouthwest talking about
depopulation. And so whensettlers came here, when they
first started showing up, ourcommunities were already
decimated because, like diseasehad come before them. It it pre
like it followed thembeforehand. We used to have very
extensive trade routes. And soeven before we started
(42:33):
interacting with settlers, wewere interacting with people who
interacted with, who interactedwith, who interacted with
settlers, and then kind ofalready experiencing that
devastation from disease. And sowe might not know what our
population was pre colonization,but we can estimate that it
would be a lot larger than whatit was when they did come here,
(42:53):
or when they did start, kind ofmaking estimates about that. And
so with that becomes a huge landuse change, right? Because
people aren't even they're justless people in the environment
using the resources. I mean nowwe have over as a country, over
population, potentially. I meanas a world, you know, we're
(43:14):
really putting our resources attheir third capacity to a large
degree. But in those times wewere they were being
underutilized for for at least afew decades right before well
that, I would say they're stillbeing under utilized to what
they're kind of ecologicallyadapted to do, because not only
(43:36):
with Washoe people, but for theNumu and Newe, the Paiute and
Shoshone people in the GreatBasin, the pine nuts were the
reason why we've been able tosurvive for 1000s of years,
because it was a food sourcethat you could store for
multiple years and that youcould and because you could
store it, you could save it andstore it, you could live off of
(43:57):
it, even If there's a bad crop.
So we have these climate ofthis, like, you know, high I
always it's the most variableclimate in almost the world,
because we have so manydifferent mountain ranges. We
have hot summers and coldwinters. So both in, like, a
regular, you know, yearlyclimate. But then in our annual
(44:19):
look at some years where we geta lot of snow, and then some
years followed by no snow. Andso you have to have some sort of
a food source that you can storefor multiple years if you're
going to live. And so theseareas were heavily, heavily used
by our communities. And thenwhen you remove people from that
situation, then they're nolonger being used. So I think
(44:41):
some of our strongest, ourstrongest evidence of fire and
cultural burning, or what, youknow, what did we do to keep
those areas healthy for thefuture? And I really do think a
lot of it comes from the. How wegathered pine nuts, how we
(45:01):
cooked pine nuts, and how westored them. And so when we
gathered pine nuts, we'd clean,I should say not when we'd like,
not past tense, but when wegather pine nuts, we clean out
the duff underneath these trees.
And that's really important,especially when you go out
there, because if fire can getinto that Duff, it can get up
into the tree really easy. So weclean out that duff because it
(45:23):
creates kind of this clear areathat when we knock the pine nuts
onto the ground, then you canget them. And then the other
part that we do is that we callit a , but it's like a big, long
stick, and then use that toknock the pine cones onto the
ground. And when you do that,you're also thinning, like
trimming the trees, becausethese these trees don't knock
(45:44):
their own. They're not the typeof conifer that knocks like
prunes themselves. So they haveto have, like, to get rid of
dead branches. They needassistance. And so when we're
hitting those trees with that,it's getting rid of those, like
those dead branches, and, youknow, thinning that area out so
(46:04):
in and of itself, even just howwe gather it, it creates a more
fire resilient tree, just fromgathering alone and then with
that death and that those deadbranches. So when we cook our
pine nuts, we cook them in likeearthen ovens. We cook them
under the ground. So you takethat dead duff, those that
branches, and you use it tostart these like fires, to cook
(46:26):
the pine nuts, and you cook thepine nuts. And so then you're
also getting rid of all of thefuel that would have been
accumulated by these originalpractices. And then it would
have been done kind of formonths in the fall time, because
everybody would go up into thePine Nut Hills. And our co
(46:47):
worker, Shelley Wyatt, she waseven talking, we were talking
earlier this year, and she wastalking about how her her dad
would remember, becauseeverybody go to the same camps.
And so they would look out, likeacross over the hill and see
like smoke coming up, andthey'll say, oh so. And so must
have just got up here fromwherever and and they always
(47:08):
knew that. So it's somethingthat not only did they do it
every year, but it was somethingthat people were so comfortable
with, and they just spend, youknow, the fall time up there,
and even kind of into morerecent years, but now, like,
what you're saying withcheatgrass? I mean, I don't even
know, like, we don't know whatthe solution is right now. We
(47:34):
know that we're our community isexperiencing that devastation.
Our elders are always asking us,like, what are we doing to
protect the Pine Nut Hills? Butwith that invasive like, there
it, I hate to say, like, there'snot a whole lot of hope we're
going to do our best no matterwhat, and anything we can do to
kind of help, like, the nextperson that's going to have to
(47:57):
pick that up and do it too, Ithink is worth the effort, but,
but, yeah, it's a is definitelya tricky conversation once we
start talking about like fire inthe face of climate change, in
the face of invasive species, inthe face of things that you know
are a little bit harder to
Christina Restaino (48:18):
You know, I also would think that the
control.
gathering of the duff and thelitter and the branches and
everything and burning allthroughout probably kept down
seedlings from encroaching rightso it's not only was it making
it more resilient to fire, Butit was also reducing kind of in
(48:40):
growth, which is becoming aproblem in those regions also
now, right? And so it's that,that dynamic, it, it reminds me,
I went on a trip in the Inyowith some tribal elders there,
and they were explaining thePiaget trenches on the Jeffrey
pine trees and how they gatherthe larvae of the Pandora moth
(49:03):
and they but historically, theywould clear the duff around all
of the big Jeffrey pine trees.
And those are some of theoldest, most kind of iconic,
beautiful pine trees that thatexist on the east side because
they were culturally maintainedfor generations. And, you know,
those trees have survivedmultiple wildfires in the
(49:27):
contemporary era because ofthat. And so I think that that
logic is really sound, right?
That that's what was happeningin the pine nuts, that it's this
mix of you kind of grooming theecosystem, if you will, managing
it. And then, you know, havingthat ecosystem adapt to that
(49:51):
management over time, and thenyou remove that entirely. And,
well, you. You don't get thatanymore. These sites that need
to be restored are the siteswhere that kind of, you know,
multi generational understandingof ecosystem, process and
function has been removed,right? And it's that, that very
(50:14):
key, you know, whether it'ssuppressing giant wildland
fires, whether it's removingcultural practices, any of these
kind of critical maintenanceregimes that were occurring that
are now gone. That's why we areworking so hard to quote,
unquote, restore our, our, our,our our ecosystems, is to find
(50:38):
that balance again. But justlike you said, the target of
what that balance is is changingso significantly, with invasive
species, with climate change,with encroachment of more humans
and the wildland urbaninterface, right? So you know,
bringing in the lessons learnedas much as we can is so
(51:01):
critical, but it is hardsometimes to feel like we are.
We are keeping up with the paceand scale that's needed.
(52:19):
And it's allsorts of human interactions,
right? Because it's like we needto think about contemporary
human interactions in thecurrent system that we're
engaging with, right? And andall social scientists, which I'm
trained as an ecologist, buthave worked a lot side by side
with folks in the socialsciences, you can read dozens
(52:40):
of, hundreds, thousands ofacademic papers showing
ecological resilience is socialresilience is, you know, right?
There are these. You can't haveone without the other. I still
think we're having to convinceagencies and folks that this
social, cultural resilience isjust as important as ecological
(53:02):
resilience, and you can't haveone without the other. And I'm
seeing all the heads nod here onthe Zoom screen. But you know, I
think that one of the issuesthat I tend to have is that, you
know these planning processesthat we need to go through in
order to implement anymanagement actions on the
landscape takes such a long timethat by the time we get to
(53:26):
implement them, that it's like,well, now the target has
changed, and we need to berethinking how we're you know,
yeah, it's just we have so muchdata and science and information
and suggestions out there. Wejust need to do.
Helen Fillmore (53:41):
The other part too is like, when it does come
to that social component, whatwe're also facing right is that
even, I mean, we want people toreconnect and with the land, but
we want them to reconnect withit in the right ways. So like,
one of the things that we'rereally struggling with in our
Pine Nut Hills is, like, offroad vehicle use and they,
(54:02):
they're creating, like, way morebad disturbance than they are
any kind of good disturbance andand so I think that's the other
part, is like, making sure thatwe're, we're telling, like, the
the right story, that it's notjust, yeah, it's not just Kind
of going up there, and I don'tknow, I mean, cultural
(54:24):
appropriation has been such ahuge issue that we've also
experienced that having likethat conversation can get
tricky. But I think one of thethings like about our work is
that we really do get to workdirectly, like with the tribe
and for the tribe, and soeverything we do really is kind
of not appropriative at thatpoint. It really is about kind
(54:46):
of getting doing the rightthings that are, you know, there
are families that their familieshave already been doing for so
Megan Kay (54:52):
we're already talking about it, to transition to kind
long,of like this what you guys see
is the future of fire andstewardship on, I mean, I guess
you can whatever you could be inthe US in the world, but also,
(55:14):
like, specifically, just onWashoe lands, like, how, what?
And I would, I would, I wouldask you, not just like your
hopes and dreams for the historyof fire, but also, like, based
on your experience like workingwith inner agencies, like, what
are some successes you've seensome inspiring things, and also
just some challenges to, like,these stewardship endeavors.
Rhiana Jones (55:36):
In terms of working with other agencies. You
know, I kind of started thatprocess, and what I have found
is, when it's not fire season,they are very, very receptive
and willing and open to workingwith tribes. And, you know, they
understand our need for wantingto bring fire back to the land.
(55:57):
You know, talking about culturalburning and prescribed fire,
it's gotten a lot of, I don'tknow what's the word momentum
this year, with respect toCalifornia being on fire, and,
you know, just kind ofrethinking about our land
practices, not just as a tribeor as an indigenous person, but
(56:17):
as somebody who lives inCalifornia, or somebody who
lives in the Great Basin, just,you know, like, what we're
doing, you know, isn't workingany longer. It might have worked
in the past with suppressingfire, but now it's gotten to the
point where these forests are soovergrown that it's like, okay,
let's take a step back and lookat maybe how, you know,
(56:38):
indigenous people managed landbefore, and if this is the right
direction to go. So they've beenvery open and receptive. We've
also been very fortunate to haveother tribes come and do
training for our community, theGreenville Rancheria and Danny
Manning, and then also Bill Tripfrom the Karuk tribe in Northern
(57:01):
California, and Ron Good from, Ibelieve the East Fork, Mono
tribe, or is it mono? I never.
Christina Restaino (57:12):
It's mono.
They always say mono disease,its mono.
Rhiana Jones (57:18):
right? My dad better not hear this. Is going
to give it to me. So thosetribes and those particular
people have been, have beenworking towards the school for
some years. They've, they have,you know, the proper
connections, the the path youneed to take to do what we want
to do, which is, you know, kindof be in charge of our own, our
(57:43):
own burning, perhaps have anative fire program that is just
in terms of being like more selfsufficient, or a sovereign
nation, like be able to have ourown, our own fire crew that
protects our own homelands. So Ithink, I yeah. I think people
are receptive and open to it,and this is the perfect time to
be starting a program like this,because of the situation that
(58:08):
you know, California has been inwith, with the wildfires these
past few seasons, and climatechange and whatnot.
Megan Kay (58:26):
Thank you for listening to the Living with
Fire Podcast. You can find morestories about wildfire and other
resources at livingwithfire.comthe Living with Fire Program is
funded by the University ofNevada, Reno Extension Nevada
(59:50):
Division of Forestry, Bureau ofLand Management and the United
States Forest Service.
Hey, welcome to the Living with Fire Podcast where
(00:21):
we share stories and resourcesto help you live more safely
with wildfire. Hi, I'm yourhost. Megan Kay, the Outreach
Coordinator for the Living withFire Program, and I'm joined by
my boss, Jamie Roice-Gomes, Hi,Jamie.
Jamie Roice-Gomes (00:34):
Hi. How's it going?
Megan Kay (00:36):
We're here today to talk about the episode you guys
are about to listen to, which isan interview with Helen Fillmore
and Rhiana Jones, environmentalspecialists with the Washoe
Tribe. And we got to talk tothem about cultural history of
burning on Washoe lands. Andalso got to talk to them about
(00:58):
some great projects that they'reworking on right now up in Meeks
Meadows in Tahoe. So Jamie, you,you, you weren't able to be on
the interview because we got, wegot busy schedules, but you were
able to listen to it. I justwanted to hear your take on it.
Jamie Roice-Gomes (01:12):
To be honest, I was, I thought it was
fascinating to learn from HelenFillmore about what the
strongest evidence for fire andcultural burning was with the
Washoe Tribe and the elders,just how they they cook the pine
nuts, and how they collect thepine nuts and and how that's
(01:35):
related. And it just really mademe think of the importance of,
you know, finding outinformation from from previous
generations, like what they didand how they did it, and, and I
don't want to go into that andreally kind of like spoil it for
(01:57):
the audience, but, and I'm goingto bring up an example it's
completely unrelated, but kindof related. It just reminds me
of, like, you know, my friend'sgrandma used to put spearmint in
her flour. And why did she dothat? She did it because the
mint in spearmint gum repelsweevils. Folks don't really know
(02:20):
that, and so it's really, it'sreally important to find out
from previous generations whatthey did and why they did it,
and then implement that into thehabits and the thought process
and the things that you dotoday. And it just either, it
just resonated me. I know it'snot really related, but it just
is, is important.
Megan Kay (02:41):
Yeah, I that is something that I have not really
thought much about, either, andthat really resonated with me.
And not to spoil it, becauseit's a great interview, I know,
but yeah, the idea that justkind of, we've always interacted
with the land and vegetation,whether it's harvesting, just
(03:02):
existing on the land, having tocreate fires to survive, and the
impact that that has on theecosystem. So it really got me
thinking about just how humansinteract with ecosystems, and
how we've always been doingthat, ever since humans were on
the land. And measuring that,and taking that in in context,
(03:27):
is really important when youthink about restoration. Because
what are we trying to restorethese ecosystems to? And humans
have to be a part of that thinkthat that logic and that that
process. So anyway, that's along winded intro to this
episode. I hope you guys enjoyit, and here's the interview.
Rhiana Jones (04:01):
My name is Rihanna Jones. I am environmental
specialist too with the WashoeTribe of Nevada in California. I
work for the EnvironmentalProtection Department
Helen Fillmore (04:17):
My name is Helen Fillmore, and I am also an
environmental specialist for theWashoe tribe. And I am
currently, or I guess, recently,our Fire Resilience Project
Manager to try to restore andrevitalize our cultural burning
practices for our within ourhomelands, but specifically for
(04:39):
our restoration projects.
Christina Restaino (04:41):
I'm Christina Restaino, I'm the
director of this esteemedprogram and on the faculty at
UNR.
Megan Kay (04:49):
I'm Megan Kay, I'm the Outreach Coordinator for the
Living with Fire Program at UNR.
So before we dive into thetopics of like the work, the
work that you're doing, I wantedto get to know you guys a little
bit. So why don't we start withRhiana, and do you mind giving
like, letting us know how yougot to be an environmental
specialist.
Rhiana Jones (05:10):
I grew up in this area. I'm Washoe and Salt River,
Pima-Maricopa, down fromArizona, and I grew up on the
Hung A Lel Ti reservation, and Iwent to school in Northern
California at Humboldt State formy undergrad. I have an
undergraduate degree in botany,and both my parents were
artists. I was really intonature and drawing, and so I was
(05:33):
like, I'm going to go and learnall the parts of plants and be
able to draw them really goodand, you know, become a
botanical illustrator. But I,you know, that didn't happen. I
went another direction, and justreally got into the science of
plants and botany andenvironmental science and
conservation. And I went on toget my masters in New Mexico at
(05:53):
New Mexico State University. Andso I have a master's in plant
and environmental science there.
I studied chile peppers, whichwas kind of another caveat from
my plan. But after that, youknow, I wanted to to work for
one of my tribes, or anyindigenous tribe, really, to
kind of take what I learned backto my community and, you know,
(06:17):
help others, encourage others togo to school. The youth
education was really heavilyinfluenced in my family, and I
think it's really important forpeople to, you know, leave their
leave their hometown for a whileand get out and see what's out
there, and then be able to, youknow, learn some stuff and bring
(06:38):
it back to your community. Sothat was my plan. And, you know,
I there was an opportunity towork for the Environmental
Protection Department, and I'vebeen here about a year and four
months. So I'm the Meeks MeadowProject Manager. I work up with
the restoration project for theMáyala Wáta Restoration, and
we're doing some, you know,COVID kind of stops and stuff,
(07:02):
but we're doing some coniferthinning up there, and where we
started doing groundwatermonitoring, and we hope to have
a scientific publication out ofthat. So I think what I would
like to see, and you know whyI'm passionate about working for
the Department, is bringing amore, you know, scientific
aspect to some of the work we'redoing. There's, you know, a good
(07:23):
cultural aspect, but I think,you know, mixing that with
science as well, and in terms ofgetting it out into the public
and, you know, being relevant inthe scientific community is, is
what I want to see and hope for,for this project, and the
groundwater monitoringspecifically, and the cultural
burning Helen so you can write apaper.
Helen Fillmore (07:43):
It's goofy. I feel goofy sometimes talking
about this, I guess, like how Igot passionate about this work.
But when I was younger, we had aWashoe language immersion school
where we were taught by ourelders. And it's one of those,
like one one room school houses,kind of a situation where there
was only 20 of us or so. I'm notexactly sure this the whole
(08:05):
number, whatnot, but at theWashoe language immersion
school, we took, you know, wewere taught everything in our
language from our elders. Andthen for our science classes, we
got to learn from like expertsin the field, because we would
take these field trips up toMeeks Meadow Máyala Wáta, is
(08:26):
what we call it, and up toTahoe, kind of throughout our
homelands. And they would, theway that they kind of arranged
it was that, you know, we wouldtalk to the head foresters, or
talk to some of the headscientists, and they would give,
like, these little bit ofoutreach. And at that time, it
was really awesome, because we'dbe learning from our elders,
(08:47):
kind of in preparation of thosemeetings, or those like, like on
the ground experiences. And youknow, our elders would tell us,
kind of their version of it, andthen it would be reinforced,
then by what the scientists weresaying, too. And so it was kind
of this, really, you know, itwas just this environmental
(09:09):
science. Ecology was just adiscipline that really resonated
with, like, our culturalbeliefs, our values, things like
that. And so I would say mypassion start to started to
develop at that early age. Andthen when I got into college, I
took a Environmental Managementcourse, and my professor at that
(09:33):
time was, he was really awesome,but the first half of the I was
at the University of Washingtonin Seattle, and the first half
of the class was kind of generalmanagement and things like that.
And then the second half of theclass, he used Tahoe as a case
study, because Tahoe is one ofthe few areas in the world
that's actually managed at thewatershed level. And then it's
(09:54):
it's all these differentmemorandums of agreements
between different states andjurisdictions and things like
that. But he's it was, not onlydid I realize, like, I can be in
a discipline and study somethingthat's really interesting and
that's really relevant to ourculture, but then I can also
(10:14):
study the areas that arespecific to, that are most
important to me, and I can studythem, you know, all the way in
Seattle, way far away from home.
So in so many ways, likeenvironmental science kept me
home, and I always knew like Iwanted to return back home.
During that time, I was alsoworking as a wildland
firefighter out of Carson City,just as a quick way to make some
(10:37):
good money and travel in thesummertime and to be outside and
camp and and I really fell inlove with that job during that
time. Was planning on kind ofpursuing that as a career, but I
I decided at some point that Imade a pretty good firefighter,
but that I'd make a really greatsomething else. And so went back
(10:58):
to school, got my masters inhydrology, and this position
opened. This wasn't, I guess mymy interest has always been more
into, like, research and kindof, like what Rhiana was saying,
as far as, like, getting moreinto some of that high, like,
not higher, but getting moreinto some of the more technical,
(11:19):
scientific research areas, butwith the pandemic, I did really
want to start getting more intoimplementation, and so took this
job with the tribe. And yeah, Iwould say, you know, as far as,
like, what keeps me excited?
It's like working with peoplelike Rihanna every day, somebody
(11:42):
who grew up in the area who has,like, all of the personal
relationship and all of that,like cultural relationship that
we kind of stem from, but thenalso has the other perspective
too, of like, you know, theseare people that we can work With
to really make this culturalrelationship we have that much
(12:03):
stronger. These are people whocan support us in those ways.
And so it's just been, yeah, Iwould say it's been, it's, it's
really an honor to be workingfor, like your homelands and
your community directly. And Iam looking forward to what we
can build here.
Megan Kay (12:22):
I like what you said, too about the you're a good
wildland firefighter, but youwould make a great something
else. I think a lot of people, Ishare that as well with just
like, a little bit of wildlandfire experience. So it's like, I
think I'd be better at somethingelse. The you guys, you guys
touched on it earlier, when youwere talking about Markleeville
(12:42):
and the reservation. But do youjust, for folks, listeners who
don't know where Washoe triballands are, Rhiana or Helen,
Would you guys mind just givinga quick overview of the of the
tribal lands and also,specifically just the projects
where the projects are locatedthat you guys are working on?
Helen Fillmore (13:01):
Oh yes. Oh, yes.
So dáɁaw Tahoe is the center ofour homelands. And our homelands
really kind of extend out fromthere up into the north and to
Susanville down South by MonoLake, and then kind of just
definitely on the like EasternSierra Foothills, and then on
the side up into the Pine NutHills, the western side, up into
the Pine Nut Hills. And so wehave both, kind of like those
(13:24):
Sierra Nevada ecosystems andthen those Great Basin
ecosystems as well. Where we'relocated. Currently, our
headquarters is in Gardnerville,Nevada. We've our reservation
lands are very small compared toour you know, our traditional
(13:46):
territories. We have fourcommunities, one located in Hung
A Lel Ti, the in Woodford,California, Markleeville area,
then one in Gardnerville, andtwo in Carson City. And that's
where the I guess about half ofour tribal members reside within
(14:06):
those four communities. Theother half live off reservation.
But the significant majority ofour off reservation tribal
members live within the arealike Reno, Carson City,
Sacramento, kind of still likein those, those, like, regular
boundaries, and then ourproject. So our projects are
(14:30):
kind of tricky, because we, mostof our specific projects are on
reservation lands, or that'swhat we're committed to is our,
like, our reservation lands fortrust lands, but our biggest
projects are on forest serviceland and on BIA allotment lands.
And so those are ones where wehave to have, like, more
(14:51):
official agreements in place,and like more official funding
to come in. And so. And the BIAallotment lands, those are our
fire restoration projects, andRomaine Smokey III, he's the one
who's managing those projects.
And we're getting ready toreplant. Tomorrow. We're going
(15:13):
to start kicking off our springplanting, and then the Máyala
Wáta Project and the TahoeBasin. We have a couple of acres
within the Tahoe basin that aretribal land, but the Máyala Wáta
Project isn't tribal land. It'sforest service land, but it's
our biggest restoration project.
And yeah,
Megan Kay (15:32):
Is that the, sorry, I creeped, I creeped on you guys
and read your read the WashoeEnvironmental Protection
Department newsletter. Is thatthe, what, the the the project
that's described in thatnewsletter? Is that the the
Máyala Wáta, or is that the the?
Helen Fillmore (15:49):
The Meeks Meadow? Yeah.
Megan Kay (15:52):
Cool.
Rhiana Jones (15:52):
So I think Helen mentioned earlier, Máyala Wáta
is the name for Meeks Creek. Sowe're calling that whole project
in Meeks Meadow, the Máyala Wátarestoration project. So the
Meeks Meadow and the Máyala WátaProject are the same one. I'll
pick up where Helen left off.
Yes. So the main projects wehave going on now, like she
said, are in the Pine Nut Hillsand Meeks Meadow, but we
received some funding throughit's a tribal wildlife grant to
(16:17):
do a resilience garden, where wecan be funded to grow our own
culturally sensitive and nativerestoration plans for our own
restoration projects. So we'vetalked about, there's this Skunk
Harbor parcel up on Tahoe. TheIncline parcel belongs to the
Washoe Tribe. Is that accurateto say Helen? Okay, Olympic
(16:38):
Valley, and then Meek's, PineNut's, and there's also a
Babbitt Peak parcel. So all ofthese could potentially be sites
for future restoration or, youknow, fire prevention go and
thin the trees or the bushes,and, you know, possibly plant
some plants up there. But I'lltalk a little bit about Meek's,
(16:58):
since that's my main project. Sowhat we hope to do up there, you
know, COVID stops and stuff, butthe plan with the Forest Service
and through the stewardshipagreement, and we have a lot of
other funders, like the NationalFish and Wildlife the
California, Tahoe Conservancy,Tahoe fund, many, many people
have contributed to this projectto to get it going. So we have
(17:20):
plans to thin the conifers. Thisyear, lodgepole pines have
encroached on the meadow. It's300 acres of meadow, and it's,
you know, hardly recognizable asa meadow anymore. So to thin all
those trees, and then go in anddo some culturally guided
prescribed burns, and then plantsome culturally significant
(17:42):
plants once the water tablecomes up a little bit. We, you
know, those, what we're seeingnow through our groundwater
monitoring is that thoseconifers are just acting as
straws and sucking up all themoisture in the meadow. So we
hope to have that, you know,come back to be more boggy and
provide, you know, properhabitat for the meadow plants
(18:05):
that were once there, culturallysignificant plants, plants used
for medicine, plants for food.
All these important to theWashoe Tribe and as well as
basket making materials that arefound in the meadow.
Megan Kay (18:23):
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(18:43):
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livingwithfire.com.
(19:09):
How did you guys, how were youguys able to understand the
evidence of cultural practicesand cultural burning like, how
did you guys come to learn aboutit. Did you guys talk to elders,
or is there documented history?
Helen Fillmore (19:26):
One of the trickiest parts about us and
kind of about the Washoe tribeand our people in our community
specifically, and ourrelationship to fire, is that
we, I would say, the greatestevidence that we have currently
demonstrating that Washoe peopledid burn, pre-contact, pre, you
(19:49):
know, pre-colonialism is kind ofthe state of our ecosystems. So
I would say that's the bestevidence that we have, because
we do have a, our homelands arelocated in areas where, when
settlement started, which for along time, you know, we didn't
(20:10):
get we're kind of one of thelater communities to get
colonized, just because ofaccess to the Sierras. And
there's so many mountains youhave to climb just to Washoe
homelands, that it wasn't until,like the late till the gold
rush, and then when silver wasfound in the Comstock Lode, that
we really like, started seeing alot of settlement. But when we
(20:32):
started seeing settlement in ourhomelands, it was significant,
and it was severe and so andsince then, you know, I mean, we
can just mention Tahoe at anyinternational stage, and people
would know that area, becauseit's even to this day, you know
that the rate of tourism upthere is is so high. So with the
(20:56):
influence of settlement Washoepeople have kind of, well, I
shouldn't say, I would say, withthe influence of settlement, we
haven't our communities, ourelders, our families, haven't
practiced fire. The entire Tahoebasin was clear cut for timber
production at a certain time,and so that completely changed
(21:17):
the ecosystem there. And so, youknow, even, even finding
ecological evidence of, like,how often fires might have
occurred is, is a huge stretchthat we're kind of trying to to
reconstruct and revitalize andso, but is there? It's not that
(21:37):
there isn't knowledge within ourour communities, or that our
elders remember. It's just thatwe're asking them to remember
things when they were three,four years old, and some of
them, sometimes it's how you askthe questions, and sometimes
it's how you start the storiesand and then what you get from
those stories. It's also likethey might have a story of, you
(22:04):
know, a certain fire, storyabout how to cook pine nuts, or
a story about things where firewould be used and to them, it's
not, you know, we use fire for ahealthy environment. We use fire
to keep our plants strong. Itwas like, Well, this was when we
used fire, and this, it was atthis point, or this fire was lit
(22:24):
because of this other reasonthat seems completely unrelated,
but it also shows like they hadthis huge and like significant
knowledge of fire and how itwould move throughout the
landscape. And so what we'reworking on right now really is
to try to restore in those areaswhere I would you know, we've
(22:45):
we've together, kind of all ofthat best knowledge that we
might know, or weave togetherall of the evidence that we
might be able to find in a waythat is culturally relevant,
even though It might not berooted in very specific stories,
or, you know, very specificguidelines and how it was done
(23:07):
previously, but ways that it canstill be culturally relevant in
a way that our like futuregenerations can also carry it on
from now and so it kind of meansthat we're moving a little bit
slower than what I think, youknow, even the environment wants
us to move in when it comes tokind of restoring what what
(23:28):
needs to happen and what kind ofchanges we need to see, but at
the same time, I think it isgoing to be a lot stronger, a
lot stronger foundation. If wedo it right, it'll have a lot
stronger foundation into
Megan Kay (23:40):
Thank you for for unpacking that for me. Because,
like, it makes so much sense towhat you guys were talking
about, like, what inspires youabout your work, and so for me,
as I'm not a scientist, but itit makes me it's like putting
together the pieces and usingyour science background to come
up with the evidence and maybejust shining a light on
(24:03):
something that the scientificcommunity has, it has yet to
shine a light on, you know,using those skills that you guys
have learned, and then, justlike, using it to talk about
restoration, but in a culturalwith a cultural context, and I
just, I think that's why thatthis interests me so much,
because it's kind of, it's likea missing piece of the puzzle.
(24:25):
And I wanted to follow up too,and kind of ask about, because
you were talking about, like,culture, culturally relevant
plants that you're trying to to,would it be like, replant? Is
that the right term or to justrehabilitate? Do you guys just
want to share a little bit of ofthat, those specifics, like,
Rhiana Jones (24:47):
There's a list of, you know, maybe 60 plants that
what kind of plants are youtrying to emphasize? And, yeah,
that.
were chosen as having culturalsignificance. WEPD did some work
with the cultural resourcesdepartment and some elders to
put together this list. Some ofthose plants would be yarrow,
wild onion, swamp onion. Thesewere all food, not yarrow,
(25:07):
yarrow is a medicine, mountainalder, service berry, blueberry,
green leaf, manzanita, earlybalsam root, incense cedar, a
lot of these plants all havenames in Washoe, and some of
them are still up in MeeksMeadow. But some of them, you
don't see as much, or theremight be, you know, one or two.
(25:28):
So replanting would be, youknow, one thing we do want to
do, and that's kind of wherethat resilience garden would
Megan Kay (25:35):
I was gonna say for the resilience guard would
come in to see if we can growsome of these culturally
significant native plants that,you know, I don't know if you
guys have ever tried to grownative plants, but it seems like
only Mother Earth can do it.
there? Is there then like a planput in place to preserve what
(25:57):
you guys have rehabilitated, tomake sure that it's a that it's
a resource for or is it justmeant to be sort of, is it? Is
it meant to be like a anexperiment? Or is it meant to be
like a usable resource, like aplace people can go to forage
these plants?
Rhiana Jones (26:13):
It's mostly meant to be a usable resource so that
we could, you know, as fundingallows keep these plants growing
and have youth and communitymembers come in and learn how to
grow these plants and whatthey're used for, and then also
maybe be able to go out torehabilitate their homelands,
you know, I think that's a big,a big part of it, and very
(26:37):
important, you know, in orderfor people to feel that
connection to nature is to beable to go out and do the work
themselves. So have these plansand then give them to the
community. And, you know, maybeI think, like Currently, we have
funding to have a communitymember come in and take care of
these plants. But, you know,have them go out and continue to
do this for years to come. Ithink the stewardship agreement
(27:00):
for Meeks Meadow goes till 2028,so, you know, as long as we have
that, that time frame and andthat permission to go and be
doing work in the meadow, wewant to, you know, get as much
stuff done as we can, have asmany cultural events as we can
up there. Be able to take eldersup there again. And, you know,
hear those stories. And, youknow, maybe they remember going
(27:22):
up there as a kid, or, you know,hearing stories about their
parents going up as a kid that,you know, my hopes are just kind
of trigger those memories byactually taking people out and
having them, you know, do morehands on stuff with the plants
and the restoration and, youknow, planting the plants,
digging in the meadow, removinginvasive weeds by hand, being
(27:42):
able to identify those invasiveweeds, that type of thing.
Helen Fillmore (27:47):
Yeah, and I guess, just to add to that too,
because it like restoration issuch restoration itself, right?
Is such a intensive activity torestore an ecosystem, ecosystem
from like a devastated orunhealthy state and get it back
to a healthy state is laborintensive. It's costly, it's
(28:14):
it's really challenging, right?
And then you're alwaysevaluating kind of the pros and
cons of different activities.
Because one activity might, youknow, negatively impact a
different activity. But when itcomes to stewardship, if we can
restore these ecosystems into ahealthy state and then provide,
(28:36):
or, you know, restore some ofthose cultural practices so that
it's truly just stewardship andit's maintenance. At that point
it really like, then we don'thave to, you know, wait till it
regrows in 20 years and then dothis other intensive project.
Again, we just have this ongoingmaintenance, this ongoing
stewardship of the area, and byrestoring our culturally
important plants, that reallydoes kind of restore, well, we
(29:01):
have to restore the plants, butwe also have to restore the
activities that kind of reallydo improve those conditions for
those plants and improve thatconnection between our community
and that area. But if we'resuccessful at all of those
different steps, then really, atthat point, our community has
everything that they need to toreally contribute to the health
(29:23):
of the ecosystems as well as thehealth of, like, our culture,
our language, our, you know,traditional practices, our, you
know, spiritual beliefs, thingslike that. And so I think the
long term goal is that, youknow, we don't keep having that
we can restore these areas, andthen it's just, you know,
maintenance and stewardship atthat point. It's not these
(29:46):
heavy, these intensiverestoration projects.
Megan Kay (29:50):
Could you guys help paint a picture of, like, what
the ecosystem used to look like,what it looks like now and then,
kind of like what. And whatyou're trying to get it to so
like, what, what did thesemeadows used to look like? Or,
if you were to experience it,what would it be like?
Christina Restaino (30:07):
And and more, how did they used to what
were the processes and thefunctions that made them
healthy? Right? Because that'show we think about healthy,
healthy ecosystems, right? Is,is, how were, what were the
functions that were occurringthat were evidence that they
were healthy to begin with.
Megan Kay (30:24):
Yeah, so, like, three, I guess we're going on a
journey here. So we're like,painting three pictures. So
like, I guess pre colonizationand pre settle, pre, you know,
European settlement, and then Iguess whatever point you could
pinpoint to target, I guess,like right now and then also
what you're trying to get to.
Rhiana Jones (30:45):
You know, the Comstock era, like Helen
mentioned, changed everything.
So I believe that was around1860 so the meadow previously
was a meadow, prior to settlersthe Comstock era, it was, you
know, still a meadow. Andtraditionally, Washoes would
have their winter camps in theCarson Valley, and then go up to
Tahoe for their summer camps andspend the summer there, hunting,
(31:07):
fishing and, you know, gatheringthese medicinal plants and the
foods that grew in the meadow.
So this, you know, happened for1000s and 1000s of years, and
then after the Comstock era,they cut it all down for timber.
The meadow, I believe, was usedfor cattle grazing. And so it
just completely changed theecosystem. And, you know,
(31:29):
Washoes were driven out of LakeTahoe. They weren't allowed to
continue their seasonalmigration to and from Lake Tahoe
for their summer camps. And sothey stopped, you know,
essentially managing the land.
And when I say managing theland, you know, you talked or
asked a little bit about thehistory of fire. And so when I
think about that, it's like, youknow, they didn't call burning
(31:52):
the meadow cultural burning.
Fire was just a part of life.
You had a fire. And from whatI've read that fires were when
they left the summer camp, fireswere left to burn, and then it
would just kind of smolderaround the area, burn whatever
trash or sticks they had cutdown or used for tools, and then
that kind of just smoldered outand kind of, you know, cleaned
(32:14):
the area for the next, season'suse, so there wasn't like, a
bunch of buildup and trash outthere. I've also heard people
tell stories. It's like, ohyeah, you know, my father would
burn the meadow. And I was like,Well, what was it for? Because,
again, you know, asking an elderif they did cultural burning,
you're not going to get theanswer you want. So it's, you
(32:37):
know, a process of trying totrying to, trying to ask the
right questions, like Helensaid, and figure out, you know,
how they use that fire. Was itfor cooking? Was it for, you
know, just warmth? Was it forcooking pine nuts or drying
materials? You know, there's,there's information there that
we were still getting at. But Ithink prior to the Comstock era,
(33:00):
it was the seasonal migrationthat essentially was the land
management of clearing out treesthat were in their way, in the
way of their camps, and maybeburning those trees. As simple
as that.
Helen Fillmore (33:15):
It's really easy to explain when you look at the
history of fire in the area too.
Some of the other things, like,even when we're talking
specifically about meadows, itgets a little bit more nuanced,
because people don't understand,like, oh, there's all these, you
know, vascular plants that won'tgrow if they don't have enough
water. But why do those evenmatter? Because we'd rather go
up into the hills and eatberries instead. So. But when it
(33:37):
comes to fire, and the historyof fire, like what we're seeing
right now, for example, arethese huge, mega fires, then
they're spreading so rapidly,and it's become, it's a state of
emergency all summer long, everysummer. And how did we get to
that situation? And it's been,you know, the removal of fire,
(34:01):
but also kind of the removal ofindigenous practices within the
lands. And so the removal offire is a huge like fire is a
disturbance, but it's anecessary disturbance. Our
gathering practices are adisturbance, but they're a
necessary disturbance. Ourcooking practices were a
disturbance, but a necessarydisturbance that these
(34:23):
ecosystems have also adapted to.
And so when you remove adisturbance, just like if you
remove an apex predator from theecosystem, it totally changes
that ecosystem and the health ofthat ecosystem in the way that
it functions naturally. And sofinding a way to incorporate
(34:44):
that disturbance into the thesystem, again, in and not just
incorporating it, butincorporating it in the way that
it would lead to the health andthe like the natural state of
that ecosystem originally. Andso that's kind of, I would say,
(35:05):
where we're getting at as faras, like, what why restoration
is needed on these areasspecifically, is because we've
removed these really importantparts of the ecosystem, and then
we've stayed hands off, andwe've left them alone. And now
these ecosystems have grown andchanged into these really
(35:25):
unhealthy states that thencreate further devastation. And
so the meadows are a really nicearea. As far as identifying
like, really, I don't want tosay easy, but the meadows are a
kind of perfect opportunity tojust show how bad things get if
(35:48):
we aren't actively managing it.
So in forested areas, it kind oftakes a little bit longer to see
how, you know, you might do aprescribed burn and that'll kill
some trees. And then it justkind of like people walk by and
they think it's so sad and andhorrible for so long, until it
finally, eventually gets to thatstate. But in these meadows, you
can look out to thesecompletely. Even stands where
(36:13):
you can't even see through them.
You wouldn't be able to walkthrough them. The wildlife can't
get through them. There's nocorridor. They're completely
separated. And then once thosetrees establish, the rate of
then the rate of establishmentjust keeps going up because
they're able, like with meadows,good functioning meadow is wet
(36:36):
enough that those coniferspecies can't grow there,
because they get they'redrowned. Basically, they get too
much water and they can'tsurvive. But as soon as they
start to establish themselves,and usually in drought, drought
years, they start to suck upmore and more of that water, and
then all of the sudden you don'thave a meadow, you have a really
(36:56):
dense, really scary, reallyintense forest. And so at that
point, it does take really heavyrestoration work to remove it
and get it back to that state.
But then, because meadows aresuch a annual ecosystem that
even you know, after your firstyear of burning, the next
(37:17):
spring, when everything grows,all the meadow plants, not all
of them, but a lot of them growback. And anything that had kind
of that seed bank that's stillin that area grows back in their
luscious and they're green andthey're beautiful. And so it's
really a great, a great focusright now, I think, as far as
kind of really trying to torestore these practices in
(37:41):
places that are really like,really need it, like at a
critical state right now,
Megan Kay (37:57):
Communities located in wildfire prone areas need to
take extra measures to livesafely. There are many ways to
prepare communities andproperties for wildfire,
including creating andmaintaining adequate defensible
space and hardening homes towithstand wildfire. This could
mean altering or replacingcertain components of the home.
Our wildfire home retrofit guidewill help you better prepare
your home and communities forwildfire. You can find the guide
(38:20):
and resources section of ourwebsite at livingwithfire.com.
Christina Restaino (38:23):
I want to hear a little bit more about the
Fire Resilience Project andthinking about the kind of, you
know, three different ecosystemtypes, if you will, right, you
(38:44):
have the Sierra Nevada, the PJWoodland and the Sagebrush
Ecosystem. And so what does,what do targets for cultural
burning look like in those threevery significantly different eco
regions, if you will, that wehave here.
Helen Fillmore (39:05):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. So the Fire
Resilience Project really cameout of the Máyala Wáta cultural
burn, because we're we reallyour department is like
environmental protectionfocused, so we don't have like a
fire suppression focus, orsomething like that within our
department. And so when it cameup that, like, you know, fire is
a stewardship practice, what isthat going to look like for
(39:30):
like, what do we what skills dowe need? What resources do we
need within this department tothen be able to use fire as a
stewardship practice on ourprojects for environmental
protection, and so that's kindof how the conversation got
started, and what we're whatwe're looking at. But then it's
tricky in these differentecosystems. So again, fire and
(39:51):
meadows, it's obvious thatmeadows need to be cleared out
when they start, when thoseconifers start to encroaching,
encroaching on them, and.
Christina Restaino (40:00):
Even in general, in Sierra Nevada mixed
conflict forest, it's prettyobvious. But then in these sage
brush woodland ecosystems withcheatgrass invasive species,
implementing fire becomes thisvery complicated thing to
tackle.
Megan Kay (40:18):
Yeah, because isn't there? Isn't there more fire
than there historically was inthose ecosystems?
Helen Fillmore (40:23):
Yes, and it's and the fire's devastating,
right? Because pinyon pines,they're like these little shrubs
that are close to the ground.
They don't have a thick bark. Iffire gets to them, they're gone
for the most part. And so tryingto figure out what fire may or
may not have looked like in thePine Nut Hills is a little bit
(40:44):
trickier, but I have sometheories, kind of based off of
because so the one thing that'sdifferent about Tahoe and the
Pine Nut Hills is that we dohave a much more recent and
stronger cultural memory aboutwhat happens in the Pine Nut
Hills, because we, our families,kept our, like, tribal allotment
(41:06):
properties in the Pine Nut Hillsbecause they were so significant
to our culture, based off of,like, what we can find, they
didn't. They never, you know,just did an understory burn, or
tried to do an understory burnin the Pine Nut Hills. Based off
the I think, like the evidencefrom our culture, I would say
(41:29):
the evidence from an ecologicalstandpoint, however, is also
weak at best. As far as whatchange happened in the mid 1850s
that led to this highencroachment of Pinyon-Juniper,
both kind of in filling withinthe forest areas and then also
spreading. So I do, on apersonal note, feel like some of
(41:50):
our theories from a culturalstandpoint, are a little bit
stronger than what we might beable to find out from a like a
scientific or ecologicalstandpoint. And there is
starting to be come they'restarting. There are some studies
coming out about this is goingto get kind of heavy for a
(42:11):
second, but studies in thesouthwest talking about
depopulation. And so whensettlers came here, when they
first started showing up, ourcommunities were already
decimated because, like diseasehad come before them. It it pre
like it followed thembeforehand. We used to have very
extensive trade routes. And soeven before we started
(42:33):
interacting with settlers, wewere interacting with people who
interacted with, who interactedwith, who interacted with
settlers, and then kind ofalready experiencing that
devastation from disease. And sowe might not know what our
population was pre colonization,but we can estimate that it
would be a lot larger than whatit was when they did come here,
(42:53):
or when they did start, kind ofmaking estimates about that. And
so with that becomes a huge landuse change, right? Because
people aren't even they're justless people in the environment
using the resources. I mean nowwe have over as a country, over
population, potentially. I meanas a world, you know, we're
(43:14):
really putting our resources attheir third capacity to a large
degree. But in those times wewere they were being
underutilized for for at least afew decades right before well
that, I would say they're stillbeing under utilized to what
they're kind of ecologicallyadapted to do, because not only
(43:36):
with Washoe people, but for theNumu and Newe, the Paiute and
Shoshone people in the GreatBasin, the pine nuts were the
reason why we've been able tosurvive for 1000s of years,
because it was a food sourcethat you could store for
multiple years and that youcould and because you could
store it, you could save it andstore it, you could live off of
(43:57):
it, even If there's a bad crop.
So we have these climate ofthis, like, you know, high I
always it's the most variableclimate in almost the world,
because we have so manydifferent mountain ranges. We
have hot summers and coldwinters. So both in, like, a
regular, you know, yearlyclimate. But then in our annual
(44:19):
look at some years where we geta lot of snow, and then some
years followed by no snow. Andso you have to have some sort of
a food source that you can storefor multiple years if you're
going to live. And so theseareas were heavily, heavily used
by our communities. And thenwhen you remove people from that
situation, then they're nolonger being used. So I think
(44:41):
some of our strongest, ourstrongest evidence of fire and
cultural burning, or what, youknow, what did we do to keep
those areas healthy for thefuture? And I really do think a
lot of it comes from the. How wegathered pine nuts, how we
(45:01):
cooked pine nuts, and how westored them. And so when we
gathered pine nuts, we'd clean,I should say not when we'd like,
not past tense, but when wegather pine nuts, we clean out
the duff underneath these trees.
And that's really important,especially when you go out
there, because if fire can getinto that Duff, it can get up
into the tree really easy. So weclean out that duff because it
(45:23):
creates kind of this clear areathat when we knock the pine nuts
onto the ground, then you canget them. And then the other
part that we do is that we callit a , but it's like a big, long
stick, and then use that toknock the pine cones onto the
ground. And when you do that,you're also thinning, like
trimming the trees, becausethese these trees don't knock
(45:44):
their own. They're not the typeof conifer that knocks like
prunes themselves. So they haveto have, like, to get rid of
dead branches. They needassistance. And so when we're
hitting those trees with that,it's getting rid of those, like
those dead branches, and, youknow, thinning that area out so
(46:04):
in and of itself, even just howwe gather it, it creates a more
fire resilient tree, just fromgathering alone and then with
that death and that those deadbranches. So when we cook our
pine nuts, we cook them in likeearthen ovens. We cook them
under the ground. So you takethat dead duff, those that
branches, and you use it tostart these like fires, to cook
(46:26):
the pine nuts, and you cook thepine nuts. And so then you're
also getting rid of all of thefuel that would have been
accumulated by these originalpractices. And then it would
have been done kind of formonths in the fall time, because
everybody would go up into thePine Nut Hills. And our co
(46:47):
worker, Shelley Wyatt, she waseven talking, we were talking
earlier this year, and she wastalking about how her her dad
would remember, becauseeverybody go to the same camps.
And so they would look out, likeacross over the hill and see
like smoke coming up, andthey'll say, oh so. And so must
have just got up here fromwherever and and they always
(47:08):
knew that. So it's somethingthat not only did they do it
every year, but it was somethingthat people were so comfortable
with, and they just spend, youknow, the fall time up there,
and even kind of into morerecent years, but now, like,
what you're saying withcheatgrass? I mean, I don't even
know, like, we don't know whatthe solution is right now. We
(47:34):
know that we're our community isexperiencing that devastation.
Our elders are always asking us,like, what are we doing to
protect the Pine Nut Hills? Butwith that invasive like, there
it, I hate to say, like, there'snot a whole lot of hope we're
going to do our best no matterwhat, and anything we can do to
kind of help, like, the nextperson that's going to have to
(47:57):
pick that up and do it too, Ithink is worth the effort, but,
but, yeah, it's a is definitelya tricky conversation once we
start talking about like fire inthe face of climate change, in
the face of invasive species, inthe face of things that you know
are a little bit harder to
Christina Restaino (48:18):
You know, I also would think that the
control.
gathering of the duff and thelitter and the branches and
everything and burning allthroughout probably kept down
seedlings from encroaching rightso it's not only was it making
it more resilient to fire, Butit was also reducing kind of in
(48:40):
growth, which is becoming aproblem in those regions also
now, right? And so it's that,that dynamic, it, it reminds me,
I went on a trip in the Inyowith some tribal elders there,
and they were explaining thePiaget trenches on the Jeffrey
pine trees and how they gatherthe larvae of the Pandora moth
(49:03):
and they but historically, theywould clear the duff around all
of the big Jeffrey pine trees.
And those are some of theoldest, most kind of iconic,
beautiful pine trees that thatexist on the east side because
they were culturally maintainedfor generations. And, you know,
those trees have survivedmultiple wildfires in the
(49:27):
contemporary era because ofthat. And so I think that that
logic is really sound, right?
That that's what was happeningin the pine nuts, that it's this
mix of you kind of grooming theecosystem, if you will, managing
it. And then, you know, havingthat ecosystem adapt to that
(49:51):
management over time, and thenyou remove that entirely. And,
well, you. You don't get thatanymore. These sites that need
to be restored are the siteswhere that kind of, you know,
multi generational understandingof ecosystem, process and
function has been removed,right? And it's that, that very
(50:14):
key, you know, whether it'ssuppressing giant wildland
fires, whether it's removingcultural practices, any of these
kind of critical maintenanceregimes that were occurring that
are now gone. That's why we areworking so hard to quote,
unquote, restore our, our, our,our our ecosystems, is to find
(50:38):
that balance again. But justlike you said, the target of
what that balance is is changingso significantly, with invasive
species, with climate change,with encroachment of more humans
and the wildland urbaninterface, right? So you know,
bringing in the lessons learnedas much as we can is so
(51:01):
critical, but it is hardsometimes to feel like we are.
We are keeping up with the paceand scale that's needed.
(52:19):
And it's allsorts of human interactions,
right? Because it's like we needto think about contemporary
human interactions in thecurrent system that we're
engaging with, right? And andall social scientists, which I'm
trained as an ecologist, buthave worked a lot side by side
with folks in the socialsciences, you can read dozens
(52:40):
of, hundreds, thousands ofacademic papers showing
ecological resilience is socialresilience is, you know, right?
There are these. You can't haveone without the other. I still
think we're having to convinceagencies and folks that this
social, cultural resilience isjust as important as ecological
(53:02):
resilience, and you can't haveone without the other. And I'm
seeing all the heads nod here onthe Zoom screen. But you know, I
think that one of the issuesthat I tend to have is that, you
know these planning processesthat we need to go through in
order to implement anymanagement actions on the
landscape takes such a long timethat by the time we get to
(53:26):
implement them, that it's like,well, now the target has
changed, and we need to berethinking how we're you know,
yeah, it's just we have so muchdata and science and information
and suggestions out there. Wejust need to do.
Helen Fillmore (53:41):
The other part too is like, when it does come
to that social component, whatwe're also facing right is that
even, I mean, we want people toreconnect and with the land, but
we want them to reconnect withit in the right ways. So like,
one of the things that we'rereally struggling with in our
Pine Nut Hills is, like, offroad vehicle use and they,
(54:02):
they're creating, like, way morebad disturbance than they are
any kind of good disturbance andand so I think that's the other
part, is like, making sure thatwe're, we're telling, like, the
the right story, that it's notjust, yeah, it's not just Kind
of going up there, and I don'tknow, I mean, cultural
(54:24):
appropriation has been such ahuge issue that we've also
experienced that having likethat conversation can get
tricky. But I think one of thethings like about our work is
that we really do get to workdirectly, like with the tribe
and for the tribe, and soeverything we do really is kind
of not appropriative at thatpoint. It really is about kind
(54:46):
of getting doing the rightthings that are, you know, there
are families that their familieshave already been doing for so
Megan Kay (54:52):
we're already talking about it, to transition to kind
long,of like this what you guys see
is the future of fire andstewardship on, I mean, I guess
you can whatever you could be inthe US in the world, but also,
(55:14):
like, specifically, just onWashoe lands, like, how, what?
And I would, I would, I wouldask you, not just like your
hopes and dreams for the historyof fire, but also, like, based
on your experience like workingwith inner agencies, like, what
are some successes you've seensome inspiring things, and also
just some challenges to, like,these stewardship endeavors.
Rhiana Jones (55:36):
In terms of working with other agencies. You
know, I kind of started thatprocess, and what I have found
is, when it's not fire season,they are very, very receptive
and willing and open to workingwith tribes. And, you know, they
understand our need for wantingto bring fire back to the land.
(55:57):
You know, talking about culturalburning and prescribed fire,
it's gotten a lot of, I don'tknow what's the word momentum
this year, with respect toCalifornia being on fire, and,
you know, just kind ofrethinking about our land
practices, not just as a tribeor as an indigenous person, but
(56:17):
as somebody who lives inCalifornia, or somebody who
lives in the Great Basin, just,you know, like, what we're
doing, you know, isn't workingany longer. It might have worked
in the past with suppressingfire, but now it's gotten to the
point where these forests are soovergrown that it's like, okay,
let's take a step back and lookat maybe how, you know,
(56:38):
indigenous people managed landbefore, and if this is the right
direction to go. So they've beenvery open and receptive. We've
also been very fortunate to haveother tribes come and do
training for our community, theGreenville Rancheria and Danny
Manning, and then also Bill Tripfrom the Karuk tribe in Northern
(57:01):
California, and Ron Good from, Ibelieve the East Fork, Mono
tribe, or is it mono? I never.
Christina Restaino (57:12):
It's mono.
They always say mono disease,its mono.
Rhiana Jones (57:18):
right? My dad better not hear this. Is going
to give it to me. So thosetribes and those particular
people have been, have beenworking towards the school for
some years. They've, they have,you know, the proper
connections, the the path youneed to take to do what we want
to do, which is, you know, kindof be in charge of our own, our
(57:43):
own burning, perhaps have anative fire program that is just
in terms of being like more selfsufficient, or a sovereign
nation, like be able to have ourown, our own fire crew that
protects our own homelands. So Ithink, I yeah. I think people
are receptive and open to it,and this is the perfect time to
be starting a program like this,because of the situation that
(58:08):
you know, California has been inwith, with the wildfires these
past few seasons, and climatechange and whatnot.
Megan Kay (58:26):
Thank you for listening to the Living with
Fire Podcast. You can find morestories about wildfire and other
resources at livingwithfire.comthe Living with Fire Program is
funded by the University ofNevada, Reno Extension Nevada
(59:50):
Division of Forestry, Bureau ofLand Management and the United
States Forest Service.
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