January 5, 2023 • 21 mins
Wildfire is a vital ecological process, but it can be dangerous. It’s also a tangible reminder of how our climate is changing around us. Therefore, living in areas impacted by wildfire can be stressful on many levels, and individuals may experience eco-anxiety – or even eco-grief – in response.
On the latest episode of the Living With Fire Podcast, guest Caitlyn Wallace, LCSW, unpacks these terms and talks about ways to address feelings about wildfire and climate change. According to Wallace, “Eco-anxiety is the anxiousness and the worry about the changing climate and what might happen. And eco-grief is the sadness and grief at the loss of life – human, animal and plant life – that you anticipate to come.”
For more full episode details including the transcript, visit https://www.buzzsprout.com/1819551/episodes/11988502
Wallace, a licensed clinical social worker and therapist in Northern Nevada, specializes in perinatal mental health and the emerging field of climate-informed therapy. She treats patients experiencing pregnancy, postpartum depression and anxiety, infertility, grief and loss. Wallace explained that some of her clients were also experiencing eco-anxiety and eco-grief.
“I started noticing in some of my clients this grief and guilt around – I work so hard for this baby, I tried so hard for this baby. The baby is here. And now I am guilty and ashamed because there’s a pandemic, there’s smoke, there’s this warming climate and we’re in a huge drought. What did I do? Why did I bring a baby into this world?” said Wallace.
On the podcast, Wallace explained that anxiety and grief show up differently for everyone. Therefore, there is no “one-size-fits-all” solution for dealing with eco-anxiety and grief. However, she emphasized the importance of acknowledging feelings and experiences.
“I think that a big thing is being able to name it and being able to talk about it. Yeah, we know enough to know that for a lot of these things. Specifically, depression, anxiety, that being able to talk about your feelings around them gets you out of a fight-or-flight reactive place and into a place where you can be more responsive.”
Wallace speaks about the benefits of finding a space to talk about the feelings of eco-anxiety, such as a Climate Café modeled after Death Cafés. According to the Climate Psychology Alliance of North America, a Climate Café is “an informal, open, respectful, confidential space to safely share emotional responses and reactions related to the climate and environmental emergency.”
Wallace is one of the only climate-informed therapists in Northern Nevada and has started hosting free Climate Cafés in Reno, which you can read about in Our Town Reno. And, to learn more about eco-anxiety, check out Wallace’s suggested reading list below:
- A Guide to Eco-Anxiety: How to Protect the Planet and Your Mental Health, by Anouchka Grose
- Generation Dread, by Britt Wray
- Turn the Tide on Climate Anxiety: Sustainable Action for Your Mental Health and the Planet, by Megan Kennedy-Woodard and Dr. Patrick Kennedy-Williams
- Earth Emotions: New Words for a New World, by Glenn A. Albrecht
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Caitlyn Wallace (00:00):
And that day, when the smoke was was up, over
150 of the air quality, which islike
Megan Kay (00:05):
It's like an unhealthy zone.
Caitlyn Wallace (00:06):
Unhealthy zone, not where it had been. I think
it was just this for me also,and for a lot of people this
like, okay, like we're doing itagain, and it's a reminder
around the fires, it's areminder of what it was like the
last two years. It's also justthis, like, okay, like we're
(00:30):
watching firsthand how theclimate is changing around us.
Megan Kay (00:37):
This is the Living with Fire Podcast brought to you
by the Living with Fire Programat the University of Nevada Reno
extension.
Hi. Welcome to the Living withFire Podcast. I'm Megan Kay,
your host and OutreachCoordinator for the Living with
Fire Program at the Universityof Nevada, Reno extension. So
(00:58):
this is the third episode of ourseason two, and on this season,
we wanted to explore storiesabout wildfire and its impacts
that are more under the surfaceor unseen. This is also our
second episode about wildfireand mental health. I just want
to let you know right off thebat that on today's episode,
we're going to be talking aboutstress, anxiety and trauma
responses in the body. So on ourlast episode, we featured an
(01:20):
interview with Yasmeen Hossainfrom Oregon State University
that was all about traumainformed communication around
wildfire and how to talk to kidsabout wildfire. If you haven't
listened to it, I highlyrecommend it. It's a great
resource. And on this episode,we're going to be talking about
eco anxiety and eco grief as itrelates to wildfire and other
potentially scary climate changerelated events, our guest is
(01:43):
Caitlyn Wallace.
Caitlyn Wallace (01:44):
My name is Caitlyn Wallace. I'm a licensed
clinical social worker andPerinatal mental health
therapist and a climate informedtherapist, and I live, work and
play on Shashone Paiute inWashoe land in Northern Nevada.
Megan Kay (01:58):
Now the term eco anxiety or eco grief may be new
to you, it was to me, and I'mnot the expert, so I'm gonna go
ahead and let Caitlyn explainit.
Caitlyn Wallace (02:06):
Eco anxiety is the anxiousness and the worry
about the changing climate andwhat might happen. And eco grief
is the sadness and grief at theloss of life, human, animal and
plant life that you anticipateto come.
Megan Kay (02:23):
Caitlyn is a friend of mine, and as you heard, she's
a counselor specializing in thisemerging field of climate
informed therapy. But before Ikind of connected the dots and
figured out that that woulddefinitely be an applicable
topic to cover on this podcast,what inspired me to invite
Caitlyn on the show was anInstagram post that she made
(02:45):
during this past summer thatreally resonated with me and got
me thinking about all the stressand anxiety that go along with
living in high fire hazardareas, or just areas impacted by
wildfire. So I thought that'd bea great place to start.
Caitlyn Wallace (03:04):
I remember the day I posted. I don't remember
specifically what I said, but itwas a smoky day, with the fires
coming out of Yosemite. Thesmoke was coming out of
Yosemite. And for a lot ofpeople in our area, especially
after the last two years, whichhave been weeks and weeks and
weeks of smoke, there was almostlike a trauma response to the
(03:28):
smoke in the air and just solike, oh, okay, here we go
again. For those of you whoaren't familiar, the last two
summers, specifically so thesummer of 2021 and the summer of
2020, in our valley were filledwith smoke.
Megan Kay (03:45):
Yeah, from like the Caldor fire and the Beckwourth
and the Dixie, which were allkind of and then Tamarack, which
are all happening at the sametime.
Caitlyn Wallace (03:53):
Yeah, just huge amounts of smoke flooding into
the valley, which made the airpretty much unbreathable. I
mean, there was we were wearingmasks for COVID, but also they
were saying to wear masks forsmoke, and the kids' schools
were canceled because theycouldn't have the door anyways.
It was just a very hard andchallenging time. Couldn't be
outside without seeing smoke.
You didn't really see the sunfor a few weeks. You couldn't be
(04:17):
outside. A lot of people had allthese plans for summer that were
changed because it couldn't beout and about. And I think there
was a lot of anticipation thatsomething like that would happen
this year too. And that day,when the smoke was was up, over
150 of the air quality, whichis.
Megan Kay (04:37):
It's like an unhealthy zone.
Caitlyn Wallace (04:38):
Unhealthy zone, not where it had been. I think
it was just this for me also,and for a lot of people, this,
like, okay, like, we're doing itagain. And it's a reminder
around the fires. It's areminder of what it was like the
last two years. It's also justthis, like, okay, like. But
(05:01):
we're watching firsthand how theclimate is changing around us.
Climate change is referred to asa hyper event, meaning it's so
big and so close that we can'treally see the edges. So it's
really hard for us to understandand so hard for us to grasp it's
hard for us to hold it in spaceand get perspective on it. And
when that happens, it's either acognitive disconnect from it or
(05:26):
a flood of emotion, because it'sso hard to put it in perspective
and in space. And I think inthat moment for me, it was a.
Megan Kay (05:37):
A flood.
Speaking of wildfire smoke, weactually just put out a guide
called Living with Smoke, "Howto be prepared for smoke
exposure." In our guide, we talkabout what is in wildfire smoke
(05:59):
and why it's potentiallyhazardous to your health. We
also talk about how you canprepare for wildfire smoke and
stay safe indoors and outdoorsduring smoke events. You can
find that guide in the resourcessection of our website at
livingwithfire.com
Caitlyn Wallace (06:18):
So I'll back up just a little bit and say, I've
always been somebody concernedabout the environment. I've been
you knowtaking action,organizing recycling campaigns,
doing all the things since, likehigh school. In fact, initially,
when I went to school, I wasgoing to go do science, and
ended up through various choicesand path changes, some in my
(06:39):
control, and some out on a verydifferent end of the spectrum,
doing mental health work, andgot into perinatal work, so
treating pregnancy, postpartumdepression, anxiety,
infertility, grief and loss, andstarted noticing in some of my
clients this grief and guiltaround, I worked so hard for
(07:00):
this baby. tried so hard forthis baby. The baby is here and
now I am guilty and ridden withshame because there's a
pandemic, there's smoke, there'sthis warming client climate,
we're in a huge drought. Whatdid I do? Why did I bring a baby
onto this world? So from thatperspective, I kind of had that
(07:20):
light bulb moment of like, oh, Ican bring this other thing that
I'm very passionate about intomental health work. I had no
idea how to do it. There wasnobody doing it. And I found the
climate psychology network, andthey're out of the UK, and then
they have an American, NorthAmerican branch of that. And so
I have trained with them, and amnow offering my services as a
(07:47):
climate aware therapist, so.
Megan Kay (07:49):
So this has got sort of a new field of study. You're
saying no one was doing it whenthe light bulb went off for you.
So what does the landscape looklike now? Are people? Are there
more climate aware sort ofcounselors around? Is it
something that people areinterested in?
Caitlyn Wallace (08:10):
Yes and no.
Megan Kay (08:12):
It seems to me, there's just a lack of mental
health.
Caitlyn Wallace (08:14):
There's a lack of mental health providers in
general, especially in our area.
Megan Kay (08:19):
Yeah.
Caitlyn Wallace (08:19):
So if you were in the Bay area of California,
let's say you're going to seemore more providers in general,
and also more specializedproviders.
Megan Kay (08:28):
Because of their health care system.
Caitlyn Wallace (08:29):
Their health care system, their population,
the awareness system of thesethings, also on the East Coast,
I think there's a lot ofproviders on the East Coast. I
haven't looked at the directorylately, but I definitely get
people who are like, you're theonly person that I could find in
a, you know, 100 mile radius towhere I live. So there's that
part of it, too. And also just,I think people have a general
(08:54):
sort of dis-ease, but they can'treally put a name or a word to
it. And I can't tell you howmany times I've told people
like, what I do or that I do,like this very specific sub
specialty of parenthood and ecogrief and eco anxiety. Oh,
what's that? And I tell themlike, Oh, my God, I have that. I
didn't know there was a name forit. So people aren't even really
(09:15):
aware of what it is, let alonethe providers, right? The very
small group of us who are doingthis sort of work, we have the
language for it. We have thebooks for it. I can put some
recommendations and books if youwant to put them in the show
notes.
Megan Kay (09:30):
Yes, please.
Caitlyn Wallace (09:32):
But it's a thing that people don't
recognize, that they have, untilthey hear it and they're like,
Oh yeah, that is a thing that Ihave.
Megan Kay (09:38):
Yeah.
Caitlyn Wallace (09:39):
That is a thing that really worries me or scares
me. Back to the originalquestion of like, how does it
show up? So it helps todifferentiate for me between eco
grief and eco anxiety. Ecoanxiety is the anxiousness and
the worry about the changingclimate and what might happen,
and eco grief is the sadness andgrief at the loss of life.
(10:00):
Human, animal and plant lifethat you anticipate to come. And
then there's also some emergingterms that are specific to
climate change, likeanticipatory trauma. It's a
trauma response in anticipationof an event instead of in
reaction to an event. So wecurrently have acute stress
(10:21):
disorder and post traumaticstress disorder, which look at
after a traumatic event, whathappens to a person. And there's
being floated this theory andidea, based on what some people
are saying is that people arehaving these traumatic stress
responses in anticipation ofincreased fires, water running
(10:43):
out, the changing landscape,oceans rising, the lack of
drinking water. The migrant. Youknow the pattern of migration
that will happen as people arefleeing cities that are no
longer livable due to heat orrising oceans where those people
are going to be going.
Megan Kay (11:03):
How does that happen?
How could you have like a traumaresponse to something that you
haven't experienced yet? Couldyou explain that?
Caitlyn Wallace (11:10):
I don't know exactly, but it looks like hyper
vigilance. It looks likenightmares. It looks like
inability to sleep well, itlooks like being constantly on
edge. It looks like a beliefthat the world is bad, or that
people are bad, that there'sextreme hopelessness about being
(11:30):
able to change things or changethe way that it's going. And
this is just stuff that's beingfloated. Right? It's all new.
This is all it's emerging.
Right? It's a new thing. We'vedealt with hyper objects before,
but this is a hyper object thatis the whole planet.
Megan Kay (11:55):
Wildfire is stressful and wildfire evacuations are
stressful. That's why the Livingwith Fire Program has created
our wildfire evacuationchecklist. It's a really simple
checklist to help you learn howto pack a go bag and prepare
your home and your family, evenyour pets, for wildfire
evacuation. I've included thechecklist in the links in the
(12:17):
show notes below, so be sure tocheck that out. You can also
find it at our website atlivingwithfire.com.
So we talked so you mentionedkind of like how that can show
up. So is there anythingspecific about sort of eco
(12:38):
anxiety or eco grief, likeanything that could possibly
help folks that are experiencingthat I'm wondering if it would
even be helpful for them torealize that it's it is real.
Caitlyn Wallace (12:50):
I think that's a big thing, is being able to
name it and being able to talkabout it. We know enough to know
that for a lot of these things,specifically depression anxiety
that being able to talk aboutyour feelings around them gets
you out of a fight or flightreactive place and into a place
(13:12):
where you can be moreresponsive. And so you know
therapy or Climate Cafes orextended eco anxiety. And eco
grief groups that are morefocused on the mental health
part of it are not a place totake action or to talk about
resources or to shame people whouse a plastic utensil or don't
(13:33):
carry a reusable water bottle.
They're about getting reallyclear on the emotions and being
able to process through them soyou get out of a very reactive
space, and then when you are inan action oriented space, you
can be more responsive.
Megan Kay (13:48):
I mean, I'm just learning in my own sort of
personal journey, the differencebetween those two spaces. You
know, when you're feeling bigfeelings, you want to take
action, but you're not always inthe right space to do it.
Caitlyn Wallace (14:00):
Yeah, it can.
It can turn into an emotionalbypass, where you're not dealing
with the feelings because you'reabout doing direct action. And
can a term that I learned fromBritt Wray, who's written a
wonderful book called GenerationDread, and she uses the term eco
fascism, which is just becomingsuch a hard line, guilt, shamey
(14:24):
pusher about what is acceptable,what is not acceptable, that we
actually create tension. Wedon't come together. We're not
an open, welcoming community,that it becomes like pitting
people against people. Andreally what we need to be
looking at is corporations andcapitalism. There are things
that we can do to help feel likewe have more control, or that
(14:48):
we're taking action and largercorporations are responsible for
a majority of the climate,greenhouse gasses, pollution and
water pollution, plasticpollution. So it's a balance of
understanding that you do have arole to play. You can take
(15:11):
action and that can actually bereally beneficial for your
mental health, is to take thosesmall actions that you can but
then also not shaming people whoare using a plastic straw, or
who forgot their grocery bags,because that's not actually
helping anybody, and shame canjust entrench people or divide
people. So what I'm seeing inpeople, like, what is showing
(15:33):
up? There's a lot of fear, andthere's a lot of fear around,
like I said, the hyper object ofthe unknown, but also points in
time. So like the upcomingelection, the midterm election
is a big one, and then the nextpresidential election is a big
one, because there's a belief inplace about political parties
and what might happen or whatmight not happen. There's, I
(15:54):
think, this time of year forfolks around, you know, the
smoke season, as we've taken tocalling it, although, knock on
wood, this year so far has beenmild, comparatively. So a lot of
worry, you know, everythingfrom, you know, my I don't know
(16:15):
if my grandchildren are going tohave the same opportunity to do
things that I do to, you know,post the election, it's going to
be Mad Max, and everyone shouldjust start getting prepared for
utter destruction right now. Sosome people are thinking more
long term, right? They'rethinking about their grandkids,
and some people are reallyconcerned about six months from
(16:36):
now.
Megan Kay (16:40):
Is, it seems to me like, Are there analogs for that
in the past? Like, for example,maybe people who were really
freaked out about nuclear war orCold War?
Caitlyn Wallace (16:49):
Yes.
Megan Kay (16:50):
So there are, there is there? It's not like you're
going in completely blind,right? There are people who have
dealt with these, like, hugeexistential crises where maybe
they might have similarfeelings. So what would be like
the difference maybe betweensomething like that and
something like climate change.
Caitlyn Wallace (17:07):
Nuclear winter would have impacted everybody.
So there was a lot of that kindof existential stuff that was
going on. 50s, 60s, 70s, I thinkthe difference was that at that
point it was very much like,this is, you know, we pick
sides, right? And it's going tobe the Russians fault or it's
going to be the Americans fault.
And there wasn't a lot of like,this is your fault because you
don't recycle. No, this is yourfault because you eat meat. So
(17:29):
with climate change, there ismore nitpickiness. There's more
person turning on person, right?
So in the perinatal world, forexample, a lot of people are
just opting not to have kids,right? So I'm seeing, you know,
a few people who are workingthrough that, like, what does it
mean to be a person who's nothaving children? But I don't
(17:51):
feel like I can, because of thestate of the world. But that
also, then, if you are somebodywho's had children in you, but
you're also climate concerned,and the research is like, Oh,
well, children are the problem.
People who reproduce are theproblem. That doesn't feel very
welcoming. And so especially forpeople who are climate concerned
and have had children, there's alot of baby spaces are not
(18:14):
talking about climate stuff, anda lot of climate places are
really shaming of people whohave had children. So whereas
before, in an existentialthreat, not always, but the one
that comes to mind that you justmentioned, Cold War there was
like sides and a plan, and we,you know, took small action.
This is like we're almostpitting people against each
(18:36):
other.
Megan Kay (18:39):
Yeah. Is there any sort of advice that you could
offer, because I know it's likein, not like on a clinical
level, but on like a general forpeople maybe feeling like
anxiety, eco anxiety, or maybethat's advice is not the right
word. Where do we go from here?
You know,
Caitlyn Wallace (18:59):
Naming it is a huge one. Being able to put a
name to the experience thatyou're having is really big.
Finding people that you can talkto, reading the science, in a
way that feels digestible. Someof those articles are very
sciencey. I have a master'sdegree, and I read some of
these. I'm like, I have no ideawhat this is there. This is not
(19:20):
the same as like my belovedpsychology and social work.
Megan Kay (19:23):
Well, the headlines can also be sort of misleading.
Caitlyn Wallace (19:26):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you have to stay away fromthe click bait.
Megan Kay (19:29):
Yeah, totally
Caitlyn Wallace (19:30):
In regards to anything, but especially
climate. Curb your time onsocial media, talk, find people,
come to a Climate Cafe.
Megan Kay (19:39):
What is a Climate Cafe?
Caitlyn Wallace (19:41):
I'm so glad you asked. So Climate Cafes are
modeled on Death Cafes. Theystarted in the UK. And it's this
idea that there are these bigexistential crises that maybe we
don't need full blown one on onetherapy to address, but that we
need something. We need to beable to talk about it. In fact,
maybe talking about. Withpeople, is actually the most
(20:02):
helpful route, and so ClimateCafe follows the Death Cafe
model. It is open, it is nontherapeutic, though it is still
supportive, and it's facilitatedgenerally by a climate aware
therapist, someone who has beentrained to host Climate Cafes,
which I have, and it's speakingto the emotions and to the
(20:27):
feelings that you have. It's nota call to action, it's not a
lecture on what climate changeis. It's not a place for debate.
It's just a place to meet andconnect with people and create
openings and community to talkabout the feelings of climate
change.
Megan Kay (20:46):
Thank you for listening to the Living with
Fire Podcast. You can find morestories and resources about
wildfire at our website,livingwithfire.com the Living
with Fire Program is funded bythe Bureau of Land Management,
the Nevada Division of Forestryand the US Forest Service, and
were managed by the Universityof Nevada, Reno extension, an
equal opportunity institution.
And that day, when the smoke was was up, over
150 of the air quality, which islike
Megan Kay (00:05):
It's like an unhealthy zone.
Caitlyn Wallace (00:06):
Unhealthy zone, not where it had been. I think
it was just this for me also,and for a lot of people this
like, okay, like we're doing itagain, and it's a reminder
around the fires, it's areminder of what it was like the
last two years. It's also justthis, like, okay, like we're
(00:30):
watching firsthand how theclimate is changing around us.
Megan Kay (00:37):
This is the Living with Fire Podcast brought to you
by the Living with Fire Programat the University of Nevada Reno
extension.
Hi. Welcome to the Living withFire Podcast. I'm Megan Kay,
your host and OutreachCoordinator for the Living with
Fire Program at the Universityof Nevada, Reno extension. So
(00:58):
this is the third episode of ourseason two, and on this season,
we wanted to explore storiesabout wildfire and its impacts
that are more under the surfaceor unseen. This is also our
second episode about wildfireand mental health. I just want
to let you know right off thebat that on today's episode,
we're going to be talking aboutstress, anxiety and trauma
responses in the body. So on ourlast episode, we featured an
(01:20):
interview with Yasmeen Hossainfrom Oregon State University
that was all about traumainformed communication around
wildfire and how to talk to kidsabout wildfire. If you haven't
listened to it, I highlyrecommend it. It's a great
resource. And on this episode,we're going to be talking about
eco anxiety and eco grief as itrelates to wildfire and other
potentially scary climate changerelated events, our guest is
(01:43):
Caitlyn Wallace.
Caitlyn Wallace (01:44):
My name is Caitlyn Wallace. I'm a licensed
clinical social worker andPerinatal mental health
therapist and a climate informedtherapist, and I live, work and
play on Shashone Paiute inWashoe land in Northern Nevada.
Megan Kay (01:58):
Now the term eco anxiety or eco grief may be new
to you, it was to me, and I'mnot the expert, so I'm gonna go
ahead and let Caitlyn explainit.
Caitlyn Wallace (02:06):
Eco anxiety is the anxiousness and the worry
about the changing climate andwhat might happen. And eco grief
is the sadness and grief at theloss of life, human, animal and
plant life that you anticipateto come.
Megan Kay (02:23):
Caitlyn is a friend of mine, and as you heard, she's
a counselor specializing in thisemerging field of climate
informed therapy. But before Ikind of connected the dots and
figured out that that woulddefinitely be an applicable
topic to cover on this podcast,what inspired me to invite
Caitlyn on the show was anInstagram post that she made
(02:45):
during this past summer thatreally resonated with me and got
me thinking about all the stressand anxiety that go along with
living in high fire hazardareas, or just areas impacted by
wildfire. So I thought that'd bea great place to start.
Caitlyn Wallace (03:04):
I remember the day I posted. I don't remember
specifically what I said, but itwas a smoky day, with the fires
coming out of Yosemite. Thesmoke was coming out of
Yosemite. And for a lot ofpeople in our area, especially
after the last two years, whichhave been weeks and weeks and
weeks of smoke, there was almostlike a trauma response to the
(03:28):
smoke in the air and just solike, oh, okay, here we go
again. For those of you whoaren't familiar, the last two
summers, specifically so thesummer of 2021 and the summer of
2020, in our valley were filledwith smoke.
Megan Kay (03:45):
Yeah, from like the Caldor fire and the Beckwourth
and the Dixie, which were allkind of and then Tamarack, which
are all happening at the sametime.
Caitlyn Wallace (03:53):
Yeah, just huge amounts of smoke flooding into
the valley, which made the airpretty much unbreathable. I
mean, there was we were wearingmasks for COVID, but also they
were saying to wear masks forsmoke, and the kids' schools
were canceled because theycouldn't have the door anyways.
It was just a very hard andchallenging time. Couldn't be
outside without seeing smoke.
You didn't really see the sunfor a few weeks. You couldn't be
(04:17):
outside. A lot of people had allthese plans for summer that were
changed because it couldn't beout and about. And I think there
was a lot of anticipation thatsomething like that would happen
this year too. And that day,when the smoke was was up, over
150 of the air quality, whichis.
Megan Kay (04:37):
It's like an unhealthy zone.
Caitlyn Wallace (04:38):
Unhealthy zone, not where it had been. I think
it was just this for me also,and for a lot of people, this,
like, okay, like, we're doing itagain. And it's a reminder
around the fires. It's areminder of what it was like the
last two years. It's also justthis, like, okay, like. But
(05:01):
we're watching firsthand how theclimate is changing around us.
Climate change is referred to asa hyper event, meaning it's so
big and so close that we can'treally see the edges. So it's
really hard for us to understandand so hard for us to grasp it's
hard for us to hold it in spaceand get perspective on it. And
when that happens, it's either acognitive disconnect from it or
(05:26):
a flood of emotion, because it'sso hard to put it in perspective
and in space. And I think inthat moment for me, it was a.
Megan Kay (05:37):
A flood.
Speaking of wildfire smoke, weactually just put out a guide
called Living with Smoke, "Howto be prepared for smoke
exposure." In our guide, we talkabout what is in wildfire smoke
(05:59):
and why it's potentiallyhazardous to your health. We
also talk about how you canprepare for wildfire smoke and
stay safe indoors and outdoorsduring smoke events. You can
find that guide in the resourcessection of our website at
livingwithfire.com
Caitlyn Wallace (06:18):
So I'll back up just a little bit and say, I've
always been somebody concernedabout the environment. I've been
you knowtaking action,organizing recycling campaigns,
doing all the things since, likehigh school. In fact, initially,
when I went to school, I wasgoing to go do science, and
ended up through various choicesand path changes, some in my
(06:39):
control, and some out on a verydifferent end of the spectrum,
doing mental health work, andgot into perinatal work, so
treating pregnancy, postpartumdepression, anxiety,
infertility, grief and loss, andstarted noticing in some of my
clients this grief and guiltaround, I worked so hard for
(07:00):
this baby. tried so hard forthis baby. The baby is here and
now I am guilty and ridden withshame because there's a
pandemic, there's smoke, there'sthis warming client climate,
we're in a huge drought. Whatdid I do? Why did I bring a baby
onto this world? So from thatperspective, I kind of had that
(07:20):
light bulb moment of like, oh, Ican bring this other thing that
I'm very passionate about intomental health work. I had no
idea how to do it. There wasnobody doing it. And I found the
climate psychology network, andthey're out of the UK, and then
they have an American, NorthAmerican branch of that. And so
I have trained with them, and amnow offering my services as a
(07:47):
climate aware therapist, so.
Megan Kay (07:49):
So this has got sort of a new field of study. You're
saying no one was doing it whenthe light bulb went off for you.
So what does the landscape looklike now? Are people? Are there
more climate aware sort ofcounselors around? Is it
something that people areinterested in?
Caitlyn Wallace (08:10):
Yes and no.
Megan Kay (08:12):
It seems to me, there's just a lack of mental
health.
Caitlyn Wallace (08:14):
There's a lack of mental health providers in
general, especially in our area.
Megan Kay (08:19):
Yeah.
Caitlyn Wallace (08:19):
So if you were in the Bay area of California,
let's say you're going to seemore more providers in general,
and also more specializedproviders.
Megan Kay (08:28):
Because of their health care system.
Caitlyn Wallace (08:29):
Their health care system, their population,
the awareness system of thesethings, also on the East Coast,
I think there's a lot ofproviders on the East Coast. I
haven't looked at the directorylately, but I definitely get
people who are like, you're theonly person that I could find in
a, you know, 100 mile radius towhere I live. So there's that
part of it, too. And also just,I think people have a general
(08:54):
sort of dis-ease, but they can'treally put a name or a word to
it. And I can't tell you howmany times I've told people
like, what I do or that I do,like this very specific sub
specialty of parenthood and ecogrief and eco anxiety. Oh,
what's that? And I tell themlike, Oh, my God, I have that. I
didn't know there was a name forit. So people aren't even really
(09:15):
aware of what it is, let alonethe providers, right? The very
small group of us who are doingthis sort of work, we have the
language for it. We have thebooks for it. I can put some
recommendations and books if youwant to put them in the show
notes.
Megan Kay (09:30):
Yes, please.
Caitlyn Wallace (09:32):
But it's a thing that people don't
recognize, that they have, untilthey hear it and they're like,
Oh yeah, that is a thing that Ihave.
Megan Kay (09:38):
Yeah.
Caitlyn Wallace (09:39):
That is a thing that really worries me or scares
me. Back to the originalquestion of like, how does it
show up? So it helps todifferentiate for me between eco
grief and eco anxiety. Ecoanxiety is the anxiousness and
the worry about the changingclimate and what might happen,
and eco grief is the sadness andgrief at the loss of life.
(10:00):
Human, animal and plant lifethat you anticipate to come. And
then there's also some emergingterms that are specific to
climate change, likeanticipatory trauma. It's a
trauma response in anticipationof an event instead of in
reaction to an event. So wecurrently have acute stress
(10:21):
disorder and post traumaticstress disorder, which look at
after a traumatic event, whathappens to a person. And there's
being floated this theory andidea, based on what some people
are saying is that people arehaving these traumatic stress
responses in anticipation ofincreased fires, water running
(10:43):
out, the changing landscape,oceans rising, the lack of
drinking water. The migrant. Youknow the pattern of migration
that will happen as people arefleeing cities that are no
longer livable due to heat orrising oceans where those people
are going to be going.
Megan Kay (11:03):
How does that happen?
How could you have like a traumaresponse to something that you
haven't experienced yet? Couldyou explain that?
Caitlyn Wallace (11:10):
I don't know exactly, but it looks like hyper
vigilance. It looks likenightmares. It looks like
inability to sleep well, itlooks like being constantly on
edge. It looks like a beliefthat the world is bad, or that
people are bad, that there'sextreme hopelessness about being
(11:30):
able to change things or changethe way that it's going. And
this is just stuff that's beingfloated. Right? It's all new.
This is all it's emerging.
Right? It's a new thing. We'vedealt with hyper objects before,
but this is a hyper object thatis the whole planet.
Megan Kay (11:55):
Wildfire is stressful and wildfire evacuations are
stressful. That's why the Livingwith Fire Program has created
our wildfire evacuationchecklist. It's a really simple
checklist to help you learn howto pack a go bag and prepare
your home and your family, evenyour pets, for wildfire
evacuation. I've included thechecklist in the links in the
(12:17):
show notes below, so be sure tocheck that out. You can also
find it at our website atlivingwithfire.com.
So we talked so you mentionedkind of like how that can show
up. So is there anythingspecific about sort of eco
(12:38):
anxiety or eco grief, likeanything that could possibly
help folks that are experiencingthat I'm wondering if it would
even be helpful for them torealize that it's it is real.
Caitlyn Wallace (12:50):
I think that's a big thing, is being able to
name it and being able to talkabout it. We know enough to know
that for a lot of these things,specifically depression anxiety
that being able to talk aboutyour feelings around them gets
you out of a fight or flightreactive place and into a place
(13:12):
where you can be moreresponsive. And so you know
therapy or Climate Cafes orextended eco anxiety. And eco
grief groups that are morefocused on the mental health
part of it are not a place totake action or to talk about
resources or to shame people whouse a plastic utensil or don't
(13:33):
carry a reusable water bottle.
They're about getting reallyclear on the emotions and being
able to process through them soyou get out of a very reactive
space, and then when you are inan action oriented space, you
can be more responsive.
Megan Kay (13:48):
I mean, I'm just learning in my own sort of
personal journey, the differencebetween those two spaces. You
know, when you're feeling bigfeelings, you want to take
action, but you're not always inthe right space to do it.
Caitlyn Wallace (14:00):
Yeah, it can.
It can turn into an emotionalbypass, where you're not dealing
with the feelings because you'reabout doing direct action. And
can a term that I learned fromBritt Wray, who's written a
wonderful book called GenerationDread, and she uses the term eco
fascism, which is just becomingsuch a hard line, guilt, shamey
(14:24):
pusher about what is acceptable,what is not acceptable, that we
actually create tension. Wedon't come together. We're not
an open, welcoming community,that it becomes like pitting
people against people. Andreally what we need to be
looking at is corporations andcapitalism. There are things
that we can do to help feel likewe have more control, or that
(14:48):
we're taking action and largercorporations are responsible for
a majority of the climate,greenhouse gasses, pollution and
water pollution, plasticpollution. So it's a balance of
understanding that you do have arole to play. You can take
(15:11):
action and that can actually bereally beneficial for your
mental health, is to take thosesmall actions that you can but
then also not shaming people whoare using a plastic straw, or
who forgot their grocery bags,because that's not actually
helping anybody, and shame canjust entrench people or divide
people. So what I'm seeing inpeople, like, what is showing
(15:33):
up? There's a lot of fear, andthere's a lot of fear around,
like I said, the hyper object ofthe unknown, but also points in
time. So like the upcomingelection, the midterm election
is a big one, and then the nextpresidential election is a big
one, because there's a belief inplace about political parties
and what might happen or whatmight not happen. There's, I
(15:54):
think, this time of year forfolks around, you know, the
smoke season, as we've taken tocalling it, although, knock on
wood, this year so far has beenmild, comparatively. So a lot of
worry, you know, everythingfrom, you know, my I don't know
(16:15):
if my grandchildren are going tohave the same opportunity to do
things that I do to, you know,post the election, it's going to
be Mad Max, and everyone shouldjust start getting prepared for
utter destruction right now. Sosome people are thinking more
long term, right? They'rethinking about their grandkids,
and some people are reallyconcerned about six months from
(16:36):
now.
Megan Kay (16:40):
Is, it seems to me like, Are there analogs for that
in the past? Like, for example,maybe people who were really
freaked out about nuclear war orCold War?
Caitlyn Wallace (16:49):
Yes.
Megan Kay (16:50):
So there are, there is there? It's not like you're
going in completely blind,right? There are people who have
dealt with these, like, hugeexistential crises where maybe
they might have similarfeelings. So what would be like
the difference maybe betweensomething like that and
something like climate change.
Caitlyn Wallace (17:07):
Nuclear winter would have impacted everybody.
So there was a lot of that kindof existential stuff that was
going on. 50s, 60s, 70s, I thinkthe difference was that at that
point it was very much like,this is, you know, we pick
sides, right? And it's going tobe the Russians fault or it's
going to be the Americans fault.
And there wasn't a lot of like,this is your fault because you
don't recycle. No, this is yourfault because you eat meat. So
(17:29):
with climate change, there ismore nitpickiness. There's more
person turning on person, right?
So in the perinatal world, forexample, a lot of people are
just opting not to have kids,right? So I'm seeing, you know,
a few people who are workingthrough that, like, what does it
mean to be a person who's nothaving children? But I don't
(17:51):
feel like I can, because of thestate of the world. But that
also, then, if you are somebodywho's had children in you, but
you're also climate concerned,and the research is like, Oh,
well, children are the problem.
People who reproduce are theproblem. That doesn't feel very
welcoming. And so especially forpeople who are climate concerned
and have had children, there's alot of baby spaces are not
(18:14):
talking about climate stuff, anda lot of climate places are
really shaming of people whohave had children. So whereas
before, in an existentialthreat, not always, but the one
that comes to mind that you justmentioned, Cold War there was
like sides and a plan, and we,you know, took small action.
This is like we're almostpitting people against each
(18:36):
other.
Megan Kay (18:39):
Yeah. Is there any sort of advice that you could
offer, because I know it's likein, not like on a clinical
level, but on like a general forpeople maybe feeling like
anxiety, eco anxiety, or maybethat's advice is not the right
word. Where do we go from here?
You know,
Caitlyn Wallace (18:59):
Naming it is a huge one. Being able to put a
name to the experience thatyou're having is really big.
Finding people that you can talkto, reading the science, in a
way that feels digestible. Someof those articles are very
sciencey. I have a master'sdegree, and I read some of
these. I'm like, I have no ideawhat this is there. This is not
(19:20):
the same as like my belovedpsychology and social work.
Megan Kay (19:23):
Well, the headlines can also be sort of misleading.
Caitlyn Wallace (19:26):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you have to stay away fromthe click bait.
Megan Kay (19:29):
Yeah, totally
Caitlyn Wallace (19:30):
In regards to anything, but especially
climate. Curb your time onsocial media, talk, find people,
come to a Climate Cafe.
Megan Kay (19:39):
What is a Climate Cafe?
Caitlyn Wallace (19:41):
I'm so glad you asked. So Climate Cafes are
modeled on Death Cafes. Theystarted in the UK. And it's this
idea that there are these bigexistential crises that maybe we
don't need full blown one on onetherapy to address, but that we
need something. We need to beable to talk about it. In fact,
maybe talking about. Withpeople, is actually the most
(20:02):
helpful route, and so ClimateCafe follows the Death Cafe
model. It is open, it is nontherapeutic, though it is still
supportive, and it's facilitatedgenerally by a climate aware
therapist, someone who has beentrained to host Climate Cafes,
which I have, and it's speakingto the emotions and to the
(20:27):
feelings that you have. It's nota call to action, it's not a
lecture on what climate changeis. It's not a place for debate.
It's just a place to meet andconnect with people and create
openings and community to talkabout the feelings of climate
change.
Megan Kay (20:46):
Thank you for listening to the Living with
Fire Podcast. You can find morestories and resources about
wildfire at our website,livingwithfire.com the Living
with Fire Program is funded bythe Bureau of Land Management,
the Nevada Division of Forestryand the US Forest Service, and
were managed by the Universityof Nevada, Reno extension, an
equal opportunity institution.
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