January 5, 2023 • 21 mins
Wildfire is a vital ecological process, but it can be dangerous. It’s also a tangible reminder of how our climate is changing around us. Therefore, living in areas impacted by wildfire can be stressful on many levels, and individuals may experience eco-anxiety – or even eco-grief – in response.
On the latest episode of the Living With Fire Podcast, guest Caitlyn Wallace, LCSW, unpacks these terms and talks about ways to address feelings about wildfire and climate change. According to Wallace, “Eco-anxiety is the anxiousness and the worry about the changing climate and what might happen. And eco-grief is the sadness and grief at the loss of life – human, animal and plant life – that you anticipate to come.”
Wallace, a licensed clinical social worker and therapist in Northern Nevada, specializes in perinatal mental health and the emerging field of climate-informed therapy. She treats patients experiencing pregnancy, postpartum depression and anxiety, infertility, grief and loss. Wallace explained that some of her clients were also experiencing eco-anxiety and eco-grief.
“I started noticing in some of my clients this grief and guilt around – I work so hard for this baby, I tried so hard for this baby. The baby is here. And now I am guilty and ashamed because there’s a pandemic, there’s smoke, there’s this warming climate and we’re in a huge drought. What did I do? Why did I bring a baby into this world?” said Wallace.
On the podcast, Wallace explained that anxiety and grief show up differently for everyone. Therefore, there is no “one-size-fits-all” solution for dealing with eco-anxiety and grief. However, she emphasized the importance of acknowledging feelings and experiences.
“I think that a big thing is being able to name it and being able to talk about it. Yeah, we know enough to know that for a lot of these things. Specifically, depression, anxiety, that being able to talk about your feelings around them gets you out of a fight-or-flight reactive place and into a place where you can be more responsive.”
Wallace speaks about the benefits of finding a space to talk about the feelings of eco-anxiety, such as a Climate Café modeled after Death Cafés. According to the Climate Psychology Alliance of North America, a Climate Café is “an informal, open, respectful, confidential space to safely share emotional responses and reactions related to the climate and environmental emergency.”
Wallace is one of the only climate-informed therapists in Northern Nevada and has started hosting free Climate Cafés in Reno, which you can read about in Our Town Reno. And, to learn more about eco-anxiety, check out Wallace’s suggested reading list below:
- A Guide to Eco-Anxiety: How to Protect the Planet and Your Mental Health, by Anouchka Grose
- Generation Dread, by Britt Wray
- Turn the Tide on Climate Anxiety: Sustainable Action for Your Mental Health and the Planet, by Megan Kennedy-Woodard and Dr. Patrick Kennedy-Williams
- Earth Emotions: New Words for a New World, by Glenn A. Albrecht
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Caitlyn Wallace (00:00):
And that day when the smoke was was up over
150 The air quality which isstill
Megan Kay (00:05):
in the unhealthy zone healthy
Caitlyn Wallace (00:07):
is not where it had been. I think it was just
this for me, also. And for a lotof people this is okay. Like
we're doing it again. And it's areminder around the fires, it's
a reminder of what it was likethe last two years. It's also
just this like, okay, like we'rewatching firsthand how the
(00:32):
climate is changing around us.
Megan Kay (00:37):
This is the living with fire podcast brought to you
by the living with Fire Programat the University of Nevada Reno
extension. Hi, welcome to theliving with fire Podcast. I'm
Megan Kay, your host andOutreach Coordinator for the
living with Fire Program at theUniversity of Nevada Reno
extension. So this is the thirdepisode of our season two and on
(01:00):
this season, we wanted toexplore stories about wildfire
and its impacts that are moreunder the surface or unseen.
This is also our second episodeabout wildfire and mental
health. I just want to let youknow right off the bat that on
today's episode, we're going tobe talking about stress,
anxiety, and trauma responses inthe body. So on our last
episode, we featured aninterview with Yasmine Hussain
(01:22):
from Oregon State Universitythat was all about trauma
informed communication aroundwildfire and how to talk to kids
about wildfire. If you haven'tlistened to it, I highly
recommend it. It's a greatresource. And on this episode,
we're going to be talking abouteco anxiety and eco grief as it
relates to wildfire and otherpotentially scary climate change
related events. Our guest isCaitlin Wallace.
Caitlyn Wallace (01:44):
My name is Caitlin Wallace. I'm a licensed
clinical social worker andPerinatal mental health
therapist and a climate informedtherapist and I live work and
play on Shoshone Paiute andmarshy land in Northern Nevada.
Megan Kay (01:58):
Now the term eco anxiety or eco grief may be new
to you. It was to me, and I'mnot the expert. So I'm gonna go
ahead and let Caitlin explainit.
Caitlyn Wallace (02:06):
Eco anxiety is the anxiousness and the worried
about the changing climate andwhat might happen. And eco grief
is the sadness and grief at theloss of life. Human animal and
plant life that you anticipateto come.
Megan Kay (02:23):
Kaitlyn is a friend of mine, and as you heard, she's
a counselor specializing in thisemerging field of climate
informed therapy. But before Ikind of connected the dots and
figured out that that woulddefinitely be an applicable
topic to cover on this podcast.
What inspired me to inviteCaitlin on the show was an
Instagram post that she madeduring this past summer. That
(02:45):
really resonated with me and gotme thinking about all the stress
and anxiety that go along withliving in high fire hazard areas
or just areas impacted byWildfire. So I thought that'd be
a great place to start.
Caitlyn Wallace (03:04):
I remember the day it posted. I don't remember
specifically what I said. But itwas a smoky day with the fires
coming out of Yosemite. Thissmoke was coming out of
Yosemite. And for a lot ofpeople in our area, especially
after the last two years, whichhave been weeks and weeks and
weeks of smoke there was almostlike a trauma response to the
(03:28):
smoke in the air. And just tolike, oh, okay, here we go
again. For those of you whoaren't familiar, the last two
summers, specifically. So thesummer of 2021, and the summer
of 2020 in our valley werefilled with smoke. Yeah, from
like the Kaldor fire and thebackwards and the Dixie, which
(03:49):
are all kind of and thenTamarack for all happening at
the same time. Yeah, just hugeamounts of smoke flooding into
the valley, which made the airpretty much unbreathable name
there was we were wearing masksfor COVID. But also they were
saying to wear masks for smoke.
And the kids schools werecanceled because they couldn't
handle it or no, it was just avery hard and challenging time.
(04:11):
Couldn't be outside withoutseeing smoke. You didn't really
see this on for a few weeks. Itcouldn't be outside. A lot of
people had all these plans forsummer that were changed because
it couldn't be out and about andI think there's a lot of
anticipation that something likethat would happen this year two,
and that day when the smoke wasup over 150 The air quality
(04:34):
which is still in the unhealthyzone healthy is not where it had
been. But I think it was justthis for me also. And for a lot
of people decide, okay, likewe're doing it again. And it's a
reminder around the fires. It'sa reminder of what it was like
(04:54):
the last two years. It's alsojust as like okay like We're
watching firsthand how theclimate is changing around us.
Climate change is referred to asa hyper event, meaning it's so
big, and so close that we can'treally see the edges. So it's
really hard for us tounderstand, it's so hard for us
to grasp. It's hard for us tohold it in space and get
(05:16):
perspective on it. And when thathappens, it's either a cognitive
disconnect from it, or a floodof emotion. Because it's so hard
to put it in perspective and inspace. And I think in that
moment, for me, it was a floodthe flood.
Megan Kay (05:48):
Speaking of wildfire smoke, we actually just put out
a guide called Living withsmoke, how to be prepared for
smoke exposure. In our guide, wetalk about what is in wildfire
smoke, and why it's potentiallyhazardous to your health. We
also talk about how you canprepare for wildfire smoke, and
stay safe indoors and outdoorsduring smoke events. You can
(06:10):
find that guide in the resourcessection of our website at living
with feiyr.com.
Caitlyn Wallace (06:18):
So I'll back up just a little bit and say, I've
always been somebody concernedabout the environment have been,
you know, taking action,organizing recycling campaigns,
doing all those things sincelike high school. Initially,
when I went to school, I wasgoing to go do science, and
ended up through various choicesand path changes, some in my
(06:39):
control and some out and a verydifferent end of the spectrum,
doing mental health work and gotinto perinatal work. So treating
pregnancy postpartum depressionand anxiety, infertility, grief
and loss and I started noticingin some of my clients this grief
and guilt around, I work so hardfor this baby, I tried so hard
(07:01):
for this baby. The baby is here.
And now I am guilty and ashamedbecause there's a pandemic,
there's smoke, there's thiswarming climate, we're in a
huge drought. What did I do? Whydid I bring a baby into this
world? So from that perspective,I kind of had that lightbulb
moment of like, oh, I can bringthis other thing that I'm very
(07:23):
passionate about into mentalhealth work, I had no idea how
to do it. There was nobody doingit. And I found the climate
psychology network, there arethe UK, and then they have an
American, North American branchof that. And so I have trained
with them. And I'm now offeringmy services as a climate aware
(07:46):
therapist.
Megan Kay (07:49):
So so this is kind of sort of a new field of study,
you're saying no one was doingit when the light bulb went off
for you. So what is thelandscape look like now? People?
Are there more climate aware?
Sort of counselors around? Is itsomething that people are
interested in?
Caitlyn Wallace (08:10):
Yes, and no, yes, it seems to me, there's
just a lack of mental health.
There's a lack of mental healthin general writers in general,
especially in our area. Yeah. Soif you were in the Bay area of
California, let's say you'regonna see more and more
providers in general, and alsomore specialized providers, but
because of their health caresystem, their health care
system, their population, theawareness to some of these
(08:32):
things. So on the East Coast, Ithink there's a lot of providers
on the East Coast, I haven'tlooked at the directory lately,
but I definitely get people whoare like, you're the only person
that I could find in, you know,100 mile radius to where I live.
So there's that part of it too.
And also, just I think, peoplehave a general sort of dis ease,
(08:55):
but they can't really put a nameor a word to it. And I can't
tell you how many times I'vetold people what I do, or that I
do like this is very specificsubspecialty of peg parenthood
and eco grief and eco anxiety.
Oh, what's that? And I tell themlike, Oh, my God, I have that. I
didn't know there was a name forit. So people aren't even really
aware of what it is, let alonethe providers, or the very small
(09:18):
group of us who are doing thissort of work. We haven't the
language for it. We have thebooks for it. I can put some
recommendations and books if youwant to put them in the show
notes, please. But it's a thingthat people don't recognize that
they have until they hear it andthey're like, oh, yeah, that is
the thing that I have. Yeah,that is the thing that really
(09:39):
worries me or scares me back tothe original question of like,
how does it show up? So it helpsto differentiate from me between
ego grief and eco anxiety. Ecoanxiety is the anxiousness and
the worried about the changingclimate and what might happen.
And eco grief is the sadness andgrief at the loss of life. human
animal and plant life that youanticipate to come. And then
(10:04):
there's also some emerging termsthat are specific to climate
change, like anticipatorytrauma. It's a trauma response
in anticipation of an eventinstead of in reaction to an
event. So we currently haveacute stress disorder and post
traumatic stress disorder, whichlooks at after a traumatic
(10:24):
event, what happens to a personand there's been floated this
theory and idea based on whatsome people are saying is that
people are having thesetraumatic stress responses in
anticipation of increased fires,water running out. The changing
landscape, oceans rising, thelack of drinking water, migrant,
(10:48):
you know, the the pattern ofmigration that will happen as
people are fleeing cities thatare no longer livable due to
heat, or rising oceans, wherethose people are going to be
going.
Megan Kay (11:03):
How does that happen?
How could you have like a traumaresponse to something that you
haven't experienced yet? Can youexplain that?
Caitlyn Wallace (11:11):
I don't know exactly. But it looks like
hypervigilance. It looks likenightmares. It looks like
inability to sleep well lookslike being constantly on edge.
It looks like a belief that theworld is bad, or that people
were bad, that there's extremehopelessness, about being able
to change things or change theway that it's going. And this is
(11:33):
just stuff that's being floated.
It's all new. This is all it'semerging. Exactly. Right. Yeah.
It's a new thing. We've dealtwith hyper objects before. But
this is a hyper object that isthe whole planet.
Megan Kay (11:55):
Wildfire is stressful, and wildfire,
evacuations are stressful.
That's why the Luma Fire Programhas created our wildfire
evacuation checklist. It's areally simple checklist to help
you learn how to pack a go bag,and prepare your home and your
family, even your pets forwildfire evacuation. I've
included the checklist in thelinks in the show notes below.
(12:17):
So be sure to check that out.
You can also find it on ourwebsite at living with
feiyr.com.
So we talked, so you mentionedkind of like how that can show
up. So is there anythingspecific about sort of eco
(12:38):
anxiety or eco grief, likeanything that could possibly
help folks that are experiencingthat, I'm wondering if it would
even be helpful for them torealize that it's, it is real,
Caitlyn Wallace (12:50):
I think that's a big thing is being able to
name it and being able to talkabout it. Yeah, we know enough
to know that for a lot of thesethings. Specifically depression,
anxiety, that being able to talkabout your feelings around them
gets you out of a fight orflight reactive place and into a
(13:12):
place where you can be moreresponsive. And so you know, a
therapy or climate cafes, orextended gangs, any good grief
groups that are more focused onthe mental health part of it,
are not a place to take actionor to talk about resources or to
shame people who use a plasticutensil or don't carry a
(13:33):
reusable water bottle, they'reabout getting really clear on
the emotions and being able toprocess through them. So you get
out of a very reactive space.
And then when you are in anaction oriented space, you can
be more responsive.
Megan Kay (13:48):
I mean, I'm just learning in my own sort of
personal journey, the differencebetween those two spaces. You
know, when you're feeling bigfeelings, you want to take
action, but you're not always inthe right space to do it. Yeah,
it can
Caitlyn Wallace (14:01):
it can turn into an emotional bypass, or
you're not dealing with thefeelings because you're about
doing direct action. And can aterm that I learned from Robert
Ray who's written a wonderfulbook called Generation dread,
and she uses the term ecofascism, which is just becoming
(14:24):
such a hardline guilt Shamypusher about what is acceptable,
what is not acceptable, that weactually create tension. We
don't come together. We're notan open, welcoming community
that it becomes like pittingpeople against people. And
really what we need to belooking at is corporations and
capitalism. There are thingsthat we can do to help feel like
(14:48):
we have more control over thatwe're taking action and larger
corporations are responsible fora majority of yeah The climate,
greenhouse gases, pollution andwater pollution, plastic
pollution. So it's a balance ofunderstanding that you do have a
(15:11):
role to play, you can takeaction and that can actually be
really beneficial for yourmental health is to take those
small actions that you can, butthen also not shaming people who
are using a plastic straw, orwho forgot their grocery bags,
because that's not actuallyhelping anybody and shame can
just entrench people or dividepeople. Yeah. So what I'm seeing
(15:32):
in people, like what is showingup, there's a lot of fear. Yeah.
And there's a lot of fear aroundkind of, I guess, at the hype
project of the unknown, but alsopoints in time. So like the
upcoming election, the midtermelection is a big one. And then
the next presidential electionis a big one, because there's a
belief in place about likepolitical parties and what might
(15:54):
happen or what might not happen.
There's, I think, this time ofyear for folks around, you know,
the smoke season, as we've takento calling it knock on wood this
year so far, has been prettymild, mild comparatively. Yeah.
So a lot of worry, you know,everything from, you know, my I
(16:14):
don't know, if my grandchildrenare gonna have the same
opportunity to do things that Ido to, you know, post the
election, it's gonna be mad max,and everyone should just start
getting prepared for utterdestruction right now. So some
people are thinking more longterm, right? They're thinking
about their grandkids, and somepeople are really concerned
(16:36):
about six months from now
Megan Kay (16:39):
is, it seems to me like are there analogues for
that in the past? Like, forexample, maybe people who were
really freaked out about nuclearwar, or Cold War? Yes. So there
are there is there. It's notlike you're going in completely
blind, right? There are peoplewho have dealt with these like
huge existential crises wheremaybe they might have similar
(17:01):
feelings. So what would be likethe difference maybe between
something like that, andsomething like climate change,
Caitlyn Wallace (17:07):
and if your winter would have impacted
everybody's, there was a lot ofthat. And then that's the
central stuff that was going on?
Yeah. 50s 60s 70s differencesthat at that point, it was very
much like, this is, you know, wepick sides, right? And it's
going to be the Russians fault,or it's going to be the
Americans fault. And therewasn't a lot of like, this is
your fault, because you don'trecycle? No, this is your fault,
(17:28):
because you eat meat. So withclimate change, there's more
nitpicking this, there's moreperson turning on person, right?
So in the perinatal world, forexample, a lot of people are
just opting not to have kids.
Right? So I'm seeing, you know,a few people who are working
through that, like, what does itmean to be a person who is not
(17:49):
having children, but I don'tfeel like I can because of the
state of the world. But thatalso, then, if you are somebody
who's had children in you, butyou're also climate concerned,
and the researchers say, Oh,well, children are the problem,
people who reproduce or theproblem, if that doesn't feel
very welcoming. And soespecially for people who are
(18:10):
climate concerned and have hadchildren, there's a lot of baby
spaces are not talking aboutclimate stuff. And a lot of
climate places are reallyshaming of people who have had
children. So whereas before, inexistential threat, not always,
but the one that comes to mindthat you just mentioned Cold
War, there was like sides and aplan and we, you know, took
(18:33):
small action. This is like,we're almost pitting people
against each other. Yeah.
Megan Kay (18:39):
Is there any sort of advice that you could offer?
Because I know it's like in notlike on a clinical level, but on
like a general, for people maybefeeling like anxiety, eco
anxiety? Or maybe that's adviceis not the right word? Where do
we go from here? You know,
Caitlyn Wallace (18:59):
naming it is a huge one, being able to put a
name to the experience thatyou're having is really big,
finding people that you can talkto reading the science. Yes, in
a way that feels digestible.
Some of those articles are verysciency. Yeah, I have a master's
degree and I read some of these.
I'm like, I have no idea whatthis is. This is not the same as
(19:21):
like my beloved psychology andsocial work. Well, the headlines
can also be sort of misleading.
Absolutely. Yeah. You have tostay away from the clickbait.
Yeah, totally in regards toanything but especially climate.
Grab your time on social media.
And, you know, when people cometo a climate cafe,
Megan Kay (19:39):
what is the climate cafe?
Caitlyn Wallace (19:41):
I'm so glad you asked, so climate cafes are
modeled on death cafes, theystarted in the UK. And it's this
idea that there are these bigexistential crises that maybe we
don't need, full blownone-on-one therapy to address
but that we need something. Weneed to be able to talk about
it. In fact, maybe talking aboutwith people is actually the most
(20:02):
helpful route. And so climateCafe follows the death Cafe
model. It is open it is nontherapeutic though it is still
supportive, and it's facilitatedgenerally by a climate aware
therapist, someone who has beentrained to host me cafes, which
I have, and it's speaking to theemotions into the feelings that
(20:27):
you have. It's not a call toaction. It's not a lecture on
what climate change is. It's nota place for debate. It's just a
place to meet and connect withpeople and create openings and
community to talk about thefeelings of climate change.
Megan Kay (20:46):
Thank you for listening to the living fire
podcast. You can find morestories and resources about
wildfire and our websitelivingwithfire.com The living
with FIRE program is funded bythe Bureau of Land Management,
the Nevada Division of Forestryand the US Forest Service and
were managed by the Universityof Nevada Reno extension an
equal opportunity institution
And that day when the smoke was was up over
150 The air quality which isstill
Megan Kay (00:05):
in the unhealthy zone healthy
Caitlyn Wallace (00:07):
is not where it had been. I think it was just
this for me, also. And for a lotof people this is okay. Like
we're doing it again. And it's areminder around the fires, it's
a reminder of what it was likethe last two years. It's also
just this like, okay, like we'rewatching firsthand how the
(00:32):
climate is changing around us.
Megan Kay (00:37):
This is the living with fire podcast brought to you
by the living with Fire Programat the University of Nevada Reno
extension. Hi, welcome to theliving with fire Podcast. I'm
Megan Kay, your host andOutreach Coordinator for the
living with Fire Program at theUniversity of Nevada Reno
extension. So this is the thirdepisode of our season two and on
(01:00):
this season, we wanted toexplore stories about wildfire
and its impacts that are moreunder the surface or unseen.
This is also our second episodeabout wildfire and mental
health. I just want to let youknow right off the bat that on
today's episode, we're going tobe talking about stress,
anxiety, and trauma responses inthe body. So on our last
episode, we featured aninterview with Yasmine Hussain
(01:22):
from Oregon State Universitythat was all about trauma
informed communication aroundwildfire and how to talk to kids
about wildfire. If you haven'tlistened to it, I highly
recommend it. It's a greatresource. And on this episode,
we're going to be talking abouteco anxiety and eco grief as it
relates to wildfire and otherpotentially scary climate change
related events. Our guest isCaitlin Wallace.
Caitlyn Wallace (01:44):
My name is Caitlin Wallace. I'm a licensed
clinical social worker andPerinatal mental health
therapist and a climate informedtherapist and I live work and
play on Shoshone Paiute andmarshy land in Northern Nevada.
Megan Kay (01:58):
Now the term eco anxiety or eco grief may be new
to you. It was to me, and I'mnot the expert. So I'm gonna go
ahead and let Caitlin explainit.
Caitlyn Wallace (02:06):
Eco anxiety is the anxiousness and the worried
about the changing climate andwhat might happen. And eco grief
is the sadness and grief at theloss of life. Human animal and
plant life that you anticipateto come.
Megan Kay (02:23):
Kaitlyn is a friend of mine, and as you heard, she's
a counselor specializing in thisemerging field of climate
informed therapy. But before Ikind of connected the dots and
figured out that that woulddefinitely be an applicable
topic to cover on this podcast.
What inspired me to inviteCaitlin on the show was an
Instagram post that she madeduring this past summer. That
(02:45):
really resonated with me and gotme thinking about all the stress
and anxiety that go along withliving in high fire hazard areas
or just areas impacted byWildfire. So I thought that'd be
a great place to start.
Caitlyn Wallace (03:04):
I remember the day it posted. I don't remember
specifically what I said. But itwas a smoky day with the fires
coming out of Yosemite. Thissmoke was coming out of
Yosemite. And for a lot ofpeople in our area, especially
after the last two years, whichhave been weeks and weeks and
weeks of smoke there was almostlike a trauma response to the
(03:28):
smoke in the air. And just tolike, oh, okay, here we go
again. For those of you whoaren't familiar, the last two
summers, specifically. So thesummer of 2021, and the summer
of 2020 in our valley werefilled with smoke. Yeah, from
like the Kaldor fire and thebackwards and the Dixie, which
(03:49):
are all kind of and thenTamarack for all happening at
the same time. Yeah, just hugeamounts of smoke flooding into
the valley, which made the airpretty much unbreathable name
there was we were wearing masksfor COVID. But also they were
saying to wear masks for smoke.
And the kids schools werecanceled because they couldn't
handle it or no, it was just avery hard and challenging time.
(04:11):
Couldn't be outside withoutseeing smoke. You didn't really
see this on for a few weeks. Itcouldn't be outside. A lot of
people had all these plans forsummer that were changed because
it couldn't be out and about andI think there's a lot of
anticipation that something likethat would happen this year two,
and that day when the smoke wasup over 150 The air quality
(04:34):
which is still in the unhealthyzone healthy is not where it had
been. But I think it was justthis for me also. And for a lot
of people decide, okay, likewe're doing it again. And it's a
reminder around the fires. It'sa reminder of what it was like
(04:54):
the last two years. It's alsojust as like okay like We're
watching firsthand how theclimate is changing around us.
Climate change is referred to asa hyper event, meaning it's so
big, and so close that we can'treally see the edges. So it's
really hard for us tounderstand, it's so hard for us
to grasp. It's hard for us tohold it in space and get
(05:16):
perspective on it. And when thathappens, it's either a cognitive
disconnect from it, or a floodof emotion. Because it's so hard
to put it in perspective and inspace. And I think in that
moment, for me, it was a floodthe flood.
Megan Kay (05:48):
Speaking of wildfire smoke, we actually just put out
a guide called Living withsmoke, how to be prepared for
smoke exposure. In our guide, wetalk about what is in wildfire
smoke, and why it's potentiallyhazardous to your health. We
also talk about how you canprepare for wildfire smoke, and
stay safe indoors and outdoorsduring smoke events. You can
(06:10):
find that guide in the resourcessection of our website at living
with feiyr.com.
Caitlyn Wallace (06:18):
So I'll back up just a little bit and say, I've
always been somebody concernedabout the environment have been,
you know, taking action,organizing recycling campaigns,
doing all those things sincelike high school. Initially,
when I went to school, I wasgoing to go do science, and
ended up through various choicesand path changes, some in my
(06:39):
control and some out and a verydifferent end of the spectrum,
doing mental health work and gotinto perinatal work. So treating
pregnancy postpartum depressionand anxiety, infertility, grief
and loss and I started noticingin some of my clients this grief
and guilt around, I work so hardfor this baby, I tried so hard
(07:01):
for this baby. The baby is here.
And now I am guilty and ashamedbecause there's a pandemic,
there's smoke, there's thiswarming climate, we're in a
huge drought. What did I do? Whydid I bring a baby into this
world? So from that perspective,I kind of had that lightbulb
moment of like, oh, I can bringthis other thing that I'm very
(07:23):
passionate about into mentalhealth work, I had no idea how
to do it. There was nobody doingit. And I found the climate
psychology network, there arethe UK, and then they have an
American, North American branchof that. And so I have trained
with them. And I'm now offeringmy services as a climate aware
(07:46):
therapist.
Megan Kay (07:49):
So so this is kind of sort of a new field of study,
you're saying no one was doingit when the light bulb went off
for you. So what is thelandscape look like now? People?
Are there more climate aware?
Sort of counselors around? Is itsomething that people are
interested in?
Caitlyn Wallace (08:10):
Yes, and no, yes, it seems to me, there's
just a lack of mental health.
There's a lack of mental healthin general writers in general,
especially in our area. Yeah. Soif you were in the Bay area of
California, let's say you'regonna see more and more
providers in general, and alsomore specialized providers, but
because of their health caresystem, their health care
system, their population, theawareness to some of these
(08:32):
things. So on the East Coast, Ithink there's a lot of providers
on the East Coast, I haven'tlooked at the directory lately,
but I definitely get people whoare like, you're the only person
that I could find in, you know,100 mile radius to where I live.
So there's that part of it too.
And also, just I think, peoplehave a general sort of dis ease,
(08:55):
but they can't really put a nameor a word to it. And I can't
tell you how many times I'vetold people what I do, or that I
do like this is very specificsubspecialty of peg parenthood
and eco grief and eco anxiety.
Oh, what's that? And I tell themlike, Oh, my God, I have that. I
didn't know there was a name forit. So people aren't even really
aware of what it is, let alonethe providers, or the very small
(09:18):
group of us who are doing thissort of work. We haven't the
language for it. We have thebooks for it. I can put some
recommendations and books if youwant to put them in the show
notes, please. But it's a thingthat people don't recognize that
they have until they hear it andthey're like, oh, yeah, that is
the thing that I have. Yeah,that is the thing that really
(09:39):
worries me or scares me back tothe original question of like,
how does it show up? So it helpsto differentiate from me between
ego grief and eco anxiety. Ecoanxiety is the anxiousness and
the worried about the changingclimate and what might happen.
And eco grief is the sadness andgrief at the loss of life. human
animal and plant life that youanticipate to come. And then
(10:04):
there's also some emerging termsthat are specific to climate
change, like anticipatorytrauma. It's a trauma response
in anticipation of an eventinstead of in reaction to an
event. So we currently haveacute stress disorder and post
traumatic stress disorder, whichlooks at after a traumatic
(10:24):
event, what happens to a personand there's been floated this
theory and idea based on whatsome people are saying is that
people are having thesetraumatic stress responses in
anticipation of increased fires,water running out. The changing
landscape, oceans rising, thelack of drinking water, migrant,
(10:48):
you know, the the pattern ofmigration that will happen as
people are fleeing cities thatare no longer livable due to
heat, or rising oceans, wherethose people are going to be
going.
Megan Kay (11:03):
How does that happen?
How could you have like a traumaresponse to something that you
haven't experienced yet? Can youexplain that?
Caitlyn Wallace (11:11):
I don't know exactly. But it looks like
hypervigilance. It looks likenightmares. It looks like
inability to sleep well lookslike being constantly on edge.
It looks like a belief that theworld is bad, or that people
were bad, that there's extremehopelessness, about being able
to change things or change theway that it's going. And this is
(11:33):
just stuff that's being floated.
It's all new. This is all it'semerging. Exactly. Right. Yeah.
It's a new thing. We've dealtwith hyper objects before. But
this is a hyper object that isthe whole planet.
Megan Kay (11:55):
Wildfire is stressful, and wildfire,
evacuations are stressful.
That's why the Luma Fire Programhas created our wildfire
evacuation checklist. It's areally simple checklist to help
you learn how to pack a go bag,and prepare your home and your
family, even your pets forwildfire evacuation. I've
included the checklist in thelinks in the show notes below.
(12:17):
So be sure to check that out.
You can also find it on ourwebsite at living with
feiyr.com.
So we talked, so you mentionedkind of like how that can show
up. So is there anythingspecific about sort of eco
(12:38):
anxiety or eco grief, likeanything that could possibly
help folks that are experiencingthat, I'm wondering if it would
even be helpful for them torealize that it's, it is real,
Caitlyn Wallace (12:50):
I think that's a big thing is being able to
name it and being able to talkabout it. Yeah, we know enough
to know that for a lot of thesethings. Specifically depression,
anxiety, that being able to talkabout your feelings around them
gets you out of a fight orflight reactive place and into a
(13:12):
place where you can be moreresponsive. And so you know, a
therapy or climate cafes, orextended gangs, any good grief
groups that are more focused onthe mental health part of it,
are not a place to take actionor to talk about resources or to
shame people who use a plasticutensil or don't carry a
(13:33):
reusable water bottle, they'reabout getting really clear on
the emotions and being able toprocess through them. So you get
out of a very reactive space.
And then when you are in anaction oriented space, you can
be more responsive.
Megan Kay (13:48):
I mean, I'm just learning in my own sort of
personal journey, the differencebetween those two spaces. You
know, when you're feeling bigfeelings, you want to take
action, but you're not always inthe right space to do it. Yeah,
it can
Caitlyn Wallace (14:01):
it can turn into an emotional bypass, or
you're not dealing with thefeelings because you're about
doing direct action. And can aterm that I learned from Robert
Ray who's written a wonderfulbook called Generation dread,
and she uses the term ecofascism, which is just becoming
(14:24):
such a hardline guilt Shamypusher about what is acceptable,
what is not acceptable, that weactually create tension. We
don't come together. We're notan open, welcoming community
that it becomes like pittingpeople against people. And
really what we need to belooking at is corporations and
capitalism. There are thingsthat we can do to help feel like
(14:48):
we have more control over thatwe're taking action and larger
corporations are responsible fora majority of yeah The climate,
greenhouse gases, pollution andwater pollution, plastic
pollution. So it's a balance ofunderstanding that you do have a
(15:11):
role to play, you can takeaction and that can actually be
really beneficial for yourmental health is to take those
small actions that you can, butthen also not shaming people who
are using a plastic straw, orwho forgot their grocery bags,
because that's not actuallyhelping anybody and shame can
just entrench people or dividepeople. Yeah. So what I'm seeing
(15:32):
in people, like what is showingup, there's a lot of fear. Yeah.
And there's a lot of fear aroundkind of, I guess, at the hype
project of the unknown, but alsopoints in time. So like the
upcoming election, the midtermelection is a big one. And then
the next presidential electionis a big one, because there's a
belief in place about likepolitical parties and what might
(15:54):
happen or what might not happen.
There's, I think, this time ofyear for folks around, you know,
the smoke season, as we've takento calling it knock on wood this
year so far, has been prettymild, mild comparatively. Yeah.
So a lot of worry, you know,everything from, you know, my I
(16:14):
don't know, if my grandchildrenare gonna have the same
opportunity to do things that Ido to, you know, post the
election, it's gonna be mad max,and everyone should just start
getting prepared for utterdestruction right now. So some
people are thinking more longterm, right? They're thinking
about their grandkids, and somepeople are really concerned
(16:36):
about six months from now
Megan Kay (16:39):
is, it seems to me like are there analogues for
that in the past? Like, forexample, maybe people who were
really freaked out about nuclearwar, or Cold War? Yes. So there
are there is there. It's notlike you're going in completely
blind, right? There are peoplewho have dealt with these like
huge existential crises wheremaybe they might have similar
(17:01):
feelings. So what would be likethe difference maybe between
something like that, andsomething like climate change,
Caitlyn Wallace (17:07):
and if your winter would have impacted
everybody's, there was a lot ofthat. And then that's the
central stuff that was going on?
Yeah. 50s 60s 70s differencesthat at that point, it was very
much like, this is, you know, wepick sides, right? And it's
going to be the Russians fault,or it's going to be the
Americans fault. And therewasn't a lot of like, this is
your fault, because you don'trecycle? No, this is your fault,
(17:28):
because you eat meat. So withclimate change, there's more
nitpicking this, there's moreperson turning on person, right?
So in the perinatal world, forexample, a lot of people are
just opting not to have kids.
Right? So I'm seeing, you know,a few people who are working
through that, like, what does itmean to be a person who is not
(17:49):
having children, but I don'tfeel like I can because of the
state of the world. But thatalso, then, if you are somebody
who's had children in you, butyou're also climate concerned,
and the researchers say, Oh,well, children are the problem,
people who reproduce or theproblem, if that doesn't feel
very welcoming. And soespecially for people who are
(18:10):
climate concerned and have hadchildren, there's a lot of baby
spaces are not talking aboutclimate stuff. And a lot of
climate places are reallyshaming of people who have had
children. So whereas before, inexistential threat, not always,
but the one that comes to mindthat you just mentioned Cold
War, there was like sides and aplan and we, you know, took
(18:33):
small action. This is like,we're almost pitting people
against each other. Yeah.
Megan Kay (18:39):
Is there any sort of advice that you could offer?
Because I know it's like in notlike on a clinical level, but on
like a general, for people maybefeeling like anxiety, eco
anxiety? Or maybe that's adviceis not the right word? Where do
we go from here? You know,
Caitlyn Wallace (18:59):
naming it is a huge one, being able to put a
name to the experience thatyou're having is really big,
finding people that you can talkto reading the science. Yes, in
a way that feels digestible.
Some of those articles are verysciency. Yeah, I have a master's
degree and I read some of these.
I'm like, I have no idea whatthis is. This is not the same as
(19:21):
like my beloved psychology andsocial work. Well, the headlines
can also be sort of misleading.
Absolutely. Yeah. You have tostay away from the clickbait.
Yeah, totally in regards toanything but especially climate.
Grab your time on social media.
And, you know, when people cometo a climate cafe,
Megan Kay (19:39):
what is the climate cafe?
Caitlyn Wallace (19:41):
I'm so glad you asked, so climate cafes are
modeled on death cafes, theystarted in the UK. And it's this
idea that there are these bigexistential crises that maybe we
don't need, full blownone-on-one therapy to address
but that we need something. Weneed to be able to talk about
it. In fact, maybe talking aboutwith people is actually the most
(20:02):
helpful route. And so climateCafe follows the death Cafe
model. It is open it is nontherapeutic though it is still
supportive, and it's facilitatedgenerally by a climate aware
therapist, someone who has beentrained to host me cafes, which
I have, and it's speaking to theemotions into the feelings that
(20:27):
you have. It's not a call toaction. It's not a lecture on
what climate change is. It's nota place for debate. It's just a
place to meet and connect withpeople and create openings and
community to talk about thefeelings of climate change.
Megan Kay (20:46):
Thank you for listening to the living fire
podcast. You can find morestories and resources about
wildfire and our websitelivingwithfire.com The living
with FIRE program is funded bythe Bureau of Land Management,
the Nevada Division of Forestryand the US Forest Service and
were managed by the Universityof Nevada Reno extension an
equal opportunity institution
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