June 5, 2023 • 30 mins
Dr. Bowen was summoned shortly after Lizzie Borden discovered the body of her father, Andrew Borden, dead in the sitting room with his head smashed open by a hatchet. Shortly after Doc Bowen arrived he encountered several witnesses and gave his timeline of events and sadly, described how Mrs. Borden visited his office early Wednesday morning stating that someone was trying to poison her the day before the murders.
Bowen made acute observations on Lizzie and Bridget's behavior including what they were wearing, their composure, and whether or not Lizzie was fainting or crying as the papers said she "was having fainting fits."
District Attorney Hosea Knowlton: Tim Dennis
Dr. Seabury W. Bowen: David Loftus
Fainting Lizzie: Rina Sklar
Music: The Gargoyles of Notre Dame by Alex Grey
Voiceover Narration: Don Sharp @Sharpvoiceovers on Fiverr
Trial transcripts provided with permission by Stefani Koorey
and www.LizzieAndrewBorden.com
HK 130 and HK 332 were selected from "The Knowlton Papers" by the Fall River Historical Society.
Performed by CrankyPants T.D. Dennis
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
D.A. Knowlton (00:00):
And now HK 130.
Rev. R.M. Devens (00:03):
Dear Sir! There has been a deal said about
the impossibility of LizzieBorden killing her father and
mother without her clothingbeing stained with blood. Now
every woman knows that hergossamer waterproof cloak such
as every woman owns will protectthe clothing completely and that
a fire hot enough for ourironing would reduce it to ashes
(00:23):
in less than five minutes. Ihave heard the subject discussed
among women who claim to know.
Narrator (01:02):
And now, the inquest of Doctor Seabury Bowen shortly
after the murders of Andrew andAbby Borden in the summer of
1892.
D.A. Knowlton (01:20):
Doctor Seabury W.
Bowen?
Dr. Bowen (01:22):
Yes.
D.A. Knowlton (01:23):
You are a physician?
Dr. Bowen (01:25):
Yes.
D.A. Knowlton (01:25):
You live next to the Bordens?
Dr. Bowen (01:27):
Yes.
D.A. Knowlton (01:28):
How long have you lived there?
Dr. Bowen (01:29):
I lived across the street from Mr. Borden 20 years.
D.A. Knowlton (01:32):
You undoubtedly were well acquainted with the
family?
Dr. Bowen (01:35):
Yes, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (01:36):
And intimately so?
Dr. Bowen (01:37):
Well, yes.
D.A. Knowlton (01:39):
You were their family physician?
Dr. Bowen (01:40):
Yes, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (01:41):
They did not need much doctoring?
Dr. Bowen (01:43):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (01:44):
Had you attended Mr. Borden recently previous to
his being killed?
Dr. Bowen (01:48):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (01:49):
Had you give him any Bismuth powders or anything
of that sort?
Dr. Bowen (01:52):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (01:53):
Do you know whether he had any such things
around the house?
Dr. Bowen (01:56):
I don't know.
D.A. Knowlton (01:58):
Have you ever prescribed them for him?
Dr. Bowen (02:00):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (02:01):
Or for any member of the family?
Dr. Bowen (02:02):
Not that I remember of. I don't think I have.
D.A. Knowlton (02:05):
So far as you know, he was a man that knew
enough about that branch ofscience to take medicine himself
if he had occasion to.
Dr. Bowen (02:12):
That is a question I could not answer. I am sure I
don't know.
D.A. Knowlton (02:16):
Assuming that Bismuth was found in his
stomach. You would not have anyidea how it got there.
Dr. Bowen (02:21):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (02:23):
You had not been called that week to the family?
Dr. Bowen (02:25):
No, sir. I had not been called. I went over to see
them. The day before Wednesdaymorning. About eight o'clock or
before eight Mrs. Borden came tothe door and said she was
frightened, said that she wasafraid she was poisoned. I told
her to come in. She sat down andshe said the night before about
nine o'clock she and her husbandcommenced to vomit and vomited
(02:46):
for two or three hours until 12,I understood.
What morning was this?
Wednesday morning. I asked herwhat she had eaten for supper
and she told me she said she hadeaten some Baker's white bread
and she had heard of Baker'scream cakes being poisonous and
was afraid there was somethingpoisonous in the bread that made
her vomit. She said she onlyate cake and Baker's white
(03:06):
bread. At that time. She had asort of eructation of vomiting,
slightly. I was afraid she wasgoing to vomit there. I rather
got ready for her. I told her togo home and told her what to
take and she took it.
D.A. Knowlton (03:17):
Do you recollect what it was you prescribed for
her?
Dr. Bowen (03:20):
I told her to take some castor oil and take it in a
little port wine to take thetaste off. And probably that
would be all she would want. Ithink immediately after
breakfast. I thought they wereneighbors. I would just go over.
Before that she said Lizzie camedown. She heard them vomiting. I
think she was in the next room.
And she was up too and shecommenced to vomit at that time
about 12. I thought if they didnot call me I would go over and
(03:41):
make a friendly call. I wentover after breakfast. And then
Bridget let me in. I'm very sureit was the front door. I says
Mr. Borden, what is the matter?
He looked at me and wanted toknow if anybody had sent for me.
I told him no. Mrs. Borden wasover. I thought I would just
come over and see he seemed wellenough then. He said he felt a
(04:02):
little heavy and did not feeljust right. But he said he did
not think he needed anymedicine. I did not urge him at
all, of course, and I went home.
I did not think much about it. Isaw Mr. Borden out two or three
hours afterwards. When I wentin. I saw Lizzie run upstairs.
Mrs. Borden? I did not seebecause I had seen her before.
D.A. Knowlton (04:20):
Did you see Lizzie that morning?
Dr. Bowen (04:22):
She was just going upstairs as I went in the front
door. I thought it was her. I'mnot quite sure.
D.A. Knowlton (04:28):
That it was somebody you thought was Lizzie?
Dr. Bowen (04:30):
Yes, sir. Somebody I suppose was Lizzie, I did not
see her face.
D.A. Knowlton (04:33):
And you did not talk to her?
Dr. Bowen (04:35):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (04:35):
You did not see them again to speak to them
before they were killed?
Dr. Bowen (04:38):
No, I did not see any of them to speak to them. I
don't think I'm very certain Idid not.
D.A. Knowlton (04:44):
Where did you afterwards see Mr. Borden? Did
you see him Thursday?
Dr. Bowen (04:49):
Don't remember of seeing him Thursday might
possibly I saw him Wednesday.
Walking along between the sidedoor and gate. Lizzie I saw
walking up the street and Iconcluded they were all right
all them.
D.A. Knowlton (05:00):
You don't recollect seeing Mr. Borden out
on the street Thursday at all.
Dr. Bowen (05:04):
I don't recollect it.
D.A. Knowlton (05:06):
Did you see Mrs.
Borden on Thursday?
Dr. Bowen (05:08):
No, I did not see her Thursday. I don't remember.
D.A. Knowlton (05:11):
Did you see Lizzie on Thursday before you
were called in?
Dr. Bowen (05:15):
I don't think I did.
I don't remember seeing any ofthem. I started off probably at
nine o'clock.
D.A. Knowlton (05:20):
You go out on your travels at nine o'clock or
thereabouts?
Dr. Bowen (05:22):
I intend to.
D.A. Knowlton (05:24):
You get back when or no habit about it?
Dr. Bowen (05:26):
I intend to be around probably once an hour if I can.
D.A. Knowlton (05:30):
What was the first information that you had
of the tragedy?
Dr. Bowen (05:33):
I drove up to my house and my wife came to the
door and made a motion and saysthey want you quick to Mr.
Bordon's the same time I thinkThomas Bowles a man works across
the street told me at the sametime, I don't know which was
first. I thought probably theywere worse. So I went right over
quick.
D.A. Knowlton (05:49):
When you got there. Who did you find?
Dr. Bowen (05:51):
I found Miss Lizzie.
D.A. Knowlton (05:52):
Anybody else?
Dr. Bowen (05:54):
Bridget.
D.A. Knowlton (05:55):
You were the first outsider to get there?
Dr. Bowen (05:57):
So far as I know.
D.A. Knowlton (05:58):
Mrs. Churchill had not then got there?
Dr. Bowen (06:00):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (06:01):
Did Ms. Lizzie speak to you?
Dr. Bowen (06:02):
Yes, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (06:03):
Tell exactly what happened now.
Dr. Bowen (06:05):
I went to the door, and I met them in the hall. I
went in the side door. I thoughtI would get in there quicker. I
was so much in a hurry. Ihappened to go that way. I met
Miss Lizzie in the hall andBridget. I says, Lizzie what is
the matter? I spoke prettyquick. I say what is the matter?
Lizzie? She said she was afraidher father had been stabbed or
hurt. I think the word stabbedwas used. I says has there been
(06:27):
anybody here? She said no, notas she knew of I would not say
that. She said no. I take thatback. She said not as she knew
of, I think. She said she hadoverheard her father several
times talking loud recently andsaid she was afraid some of the
tenants had had some troublewith him. That is just as near
as I can remember it.
D.A. Knowlton (06:46):
That conversation took place immediately?
Dr. Bowen (06:49):
That took place immediately. The first thing I
said where is he? The door wasshut as it usually is. I never
saw it open hardly between thekitchen and sitting room. I went
through the dining room.
D.A. Knowlton (06:59):
You said where is he? And what answer did she
give?
Dr. Bowen (07:03):
In the sitting room.
She beckoned along through thedining room, I went through the
dining room to the door betweenthe dining room and the sitting
room that was directly at thehead of the sofa. As soon as I
got at the door, I could see thewhole room and saw him because I
was prepared for somethingawful. As I did not hear him and
there was no sound. He lay therestill unrecognizable. His face
was cut in such a manner I nevershould have known who it was. I
(07:24):
stepped in a second lookedaround the room to see if there
was any disturbance. It struckme like a flash to see if there
was anything left in the room.
Then I went right back again andtold them that their father was
dead. I took hold of his pulseand found that he was dead
satisfied myself. I did not knowthat he was when I saw him. I
took hold of his pulse and foundhe was pulseless. Then I went
(07:46):
back and informed them that hewas dead.
Then what? Then what did she sayto that? Or what did she do?
I can't tell I don't know. I wasstunned myself.
D.A. Knowlton (07:54):
What was said about the mother, if anything?
Dr. Bowen (07:56):
There was an inquiry made I don't know whether I made
it somebody said Where is Mrs.
Borden? Where is Mrs. Borden?
Lizzie said I think I think shesaid she had a note this morning
to go and see a sick friend.
That is all such a seriousaffairs that I did not stop and
could not do anything. I wassatisfied of that. In that time.
I said I must go and get some ofthe officers right off. Perhaps
I said I would get the officers.
(08:19):
Lizzie said that Emma was inFairhaven and wanted me to
telegraph to her before I wentout she said if you telegraph to
her, perhaps she will come onthis noon train. I went directly
across to my house, told my wifeand told her about telegraphing.
I was satisfied. She could notcome on the noon train direct.
So my boy drove me down to thetelegraph office and I
telegraphed to Miss Emma Borden.
D.A. Knowlton (08:40):
You would not then heard that the mother had
been killed too?
Dr. Bowen (08:43):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (08:44):
And then I went across to Baker's Drugstore I
motioned the boy to come along.
I stopped two to three minutesthere and told them of it. When
I came out. I got in my carriageagain and drove directly to the
house again and stopped at Mr.
Borden's door and went in. Therewere no crowds there at that
time that I remember of. I droveup on his side and told the boy
to stand there.
Had the crowd began to collect?
Dr. Bowen (09:06):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (09:06):
The news had not got around?
Dr. Bowen (09:08):
No, sir. I don't know as I saw anybody going in at
that time. Then I went directlyto the same side door and was
met there by Mrs. Churchill andAlice Russell. I think Mrs.
Churchill, I'm sure one of them.
Somebody I think Mrs. Churchillsaid they have found Mrs.
Borden. I said where she saidshe was upstairs. You better go
up. Then I went upstairs.
D.A. Knowlton (09:30):
Up the front stairs?
Dr. Bowen (09:31):
Yes, went up the front stairs. As I got at the
top of the stairs. As soon as Igot up on the second story, I
could look right over the bedand I saw her lying there flat
prone. My thought was that shehad run up there and fainted. I
went right around the foot ofthe bed and satisfied myself in
an instant that she was notliving. I don't know whether I
got ahold of her pulse but Isatisfied myself some way I
(09:54):
don't know how that she was notliving. I went right downstairs
again and told them Mrs. Bordenwas dead killed the same instant
I think I said that.
D.A. Knowlton (10:01):
When you looked over the bed and saw the form on
the floor, where were you in thehallway?
Dr. Bowen (10:07):
I think I must have been. I don't think I should
probably have looked until I gotup to the top of the stairs. I
could if I had been looking,I've looked as soon as my head
got level, I might then haveseen her under the bed. I went
directly up fast. And as soon asI looked in the door, I looked
over the bed.
D.A. Knowlton (10:23):
When you looked over the bed and saw the form on
the floor, where were you in thehallway?
Dr. Bowen (10:28):
Not exactly. You would have to come up to the
head of the stairs and go back alittle.
D.A. Knowlton (10:32):
So where was she lying? You could see it from the
head of the stairs. You wentdownstairs and what then?
Dr. Bowen (10:38):
I told them she was dead. Then it's pretty confused.
The rest of it along there forsome time. I could not say who
they were exactly. They keptcoming and going. I told Bridget
to get a sheet and covered upMr. Borden and kept the door
shut so the women would not seeand let the men go along.
D.A. Knowlton (10:54):
When you came back from going down the street.
Who did you find there besidesthose you named?
Dr. Bowen (10:59):
I named Mrs.
Churchill and Lizzie Borden andMiss Russell and Bridget. Do you
mean when I came back fromupstairs?
D.A. Knowlton (11:06):
No, downtown.
Dr. Bowen (11:08):
Whether Mr. Sawyer was there before I got back from
downtown or directly after Icannot tell myself. Mr. Charles
Sawyer was there very near Ithink the time.
D.A. Knowlton (11:18):
Was he a neighbor?
Dr. Bowen (11:19):
No, I don't know where he does live. I have known
him some time.
D.A. Knowlton (11:23):
When you came down from upstairs. Were more
there?
Dr. Bowen (11:26):
Yes. My wife was there then. I told her to go
right home.
D.A. Knowlton (11:29):
Had anybody else besides your wife come?
Dr. Bowen (11:31):
I could not swear to that.
D.A. Knowlton (11:33):
If you are not sure Mr. Sawyer had got there
when you came in from downtown.
Was he there when you came downfrom upstairs?
Dr. Bowen (11:39):
I know he was there.
Almost the first man I could notswear to that.
D.A. Knowlton (11:43):
If you are not sure Mr. Sawyer had got there
when you came in from downtown.
Was he there when you came downfrom upstairs?
Dr. Bowen (11:49):
I don't know whether Mr. Allen came before Sawyer or
not. I don't think it was therebefore I started out in town.
D.A. Knowlton (11:55):
How long before the first police officer came
pretty soon after that, so faras you remember now accepting
the three that you have namedSawyer, possibly and Mrs.
Churchill and Alice Russell.
Were the only ones that hadgotten there.
Dr. Bowen (12:07):
I could not say and Bridget I don't remember if
seeing anybody I would not wantto say.
D.A. Knowlton (12:12):
It did not take you a great while to go down and
back?
Dr. Bowen (12:15):
I drove right down to the office quick.
D.A. Knowlton (12:17):
Your horse was there already?
Dr. Bowen (12:18):
Yes, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (12:19):
You notify the police office?
Dr. Bowen (12:21):
I notified somebody there to get the police. I told
them at the house
D.A. Knowlton (12:24):
When you came back?
Dr. Bowen (12:25):
Yes, sir. At the house.
D.A. Knowlton (12:26):
The second time you came to the house the crowd
had not begun to collect?
Dr. Bowen (12:30):
I don't remember seeing anybody on the sidewalk.
There was no carriage there as Idrove up under the tree close to
the door.
D.A. Knowlton (12:36):
You do not remember seeing Morse when you
got back the second time?
Dr. Bowen (12:40):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (12:40):
Nor when you got down from upstairs?
Dr. Bowen (12:43):
No, sir. Not directly. I did not see him for
some little time. I don't knowwhen.
D.A. Knowlton (12:47):
Had the crowd began to collect a great deal
when he came?
Dr. Bowen (12:51):
Yes. A good many were there. I can't say who... people
that I knew. I knew almosteverybody that came in.
D.A. Knowlton (12:57):
Did Bridget have anything to say when you first
went into the house at all?
Dr. Bowen (13:00):
I don't know. I can't remember.
D.A. Knowlton (13:02):
Was Mr. Borden's body warm when you felt it?
Dr. Bowen (13:05):
There was nothing that attracted my attention. The
main thing was I found he wasdead.
D.A. Knowlton (13:10):
Which would more likely attract your attention
because coldness would attractmy attention?
Dr. Bowen (13:15):
He was pulseless that is what would attract me. If he
was cold it would attract myattention.
D.A. Knowlton (13:21):
You infer inferentially that he was not
cold?
Dr. Bowen (13:24):
I don't think he was cold. I think if he had been
cold it would attract myattention. Probably it might and
might not. I felt of his pulseand found it was pulseless and
found he was dead. I did notstop for a minute in the room I
don't suppose.
D.A. Knowlton (13:37):
As he looked at you when you went in was it
pretty plain that he was badlycut up?
Dr. Bowen (13:41):
Oh, yes, Sir. I did not recognize him. I should not
have recognized him.
D.A. Knowlton (13:45):
Was the blood on his face?
Dr. Bowen (13:47):
Yes, the blood was on his face and his eyeball cut
directly in two he lay on hisright side. The right side of
his face was not seen I saw thewhole of the cut then and none
of the healthy part.
D.A. Knowlton (13:58):
Do you recollect how Lizzie was dressed that
morning.
Dr. Bowen (14:00):
It is pretty hardwork for me probably if I could see a
dress something like it I couldguess but I could not describe
it was sort of a drab or notmuch color of to it to attract
my attention. Sort of a morningCalico dress I should judge.
D.A. Knowlton (14:14):
Did she change her dress?
Dr. Bowen (14:16):
She changed her dress sometime in the course of two or
three hours. I noticed she hadon a wrapper I think afterwards.
She didn't do that until shewent up into a room to stay.
D.A. Knowlton (14:25):
When did she go up to her room to stay?
Dr. Bowen (14:27):
It is pretty hard saying what time. Very soon
after the crowd I should say. Itis pretty hard saying how long I
could not tell.
D.A. Knowlton (14:36):
When you first came, you all came to the side
door?
Dr. Bowen (14:39):
Yes sir.
D.A. Knowlton (14:40):
Where was she standing? Exactly.
Dr. Bowen (14:42):
I could not say exactly where whether she met me
at the end of the entry or whereI could not say I have the
impression now that she was atthe side door and opened the
screen door and the door washalf opened and ready for me
that that is my impression.
D.A. Knowlton (14:57):
Where was Bridget?
Dr. Bowen (14:58):
She was very near the entry was very short and she was
very near I could not sayexactly.
D.A. Knowlton (15:03):
What was Miss Lizzie's appearance and manner.
Dr. Bowen (15:06):
Well, she was excited and well, it's hard to describe
it. She was somewhat excited ina hurry for me to come.
D.A. Knowlton (15:13):
In tears?
Dr. Bowen (15:14):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (15:15):
What was Miss Bridget's appearance and manner?
Dr. Bowen (15:18):
She was calm so far as any excitement in her face
was concerned she was uneasy andexcited in action, but not in
her face. I don't think I'mprepared to say much about that.
D.A. Knowlton (15:28):
Perhaps you did not take much notice of Bridget.
Dr. Bowen (15:31):
I did not take much notice of either of them. The
main thing was to see what thematter was and get at it quick.
D.A. Knowlton (15:37):
The conversation with relation to Mr. Borden is
having had trouble with some manwas all right there.
Dr. Bowen (15:43):
Yes, before I went in to see him. She said Mr. Borden
I'm afraid is injured or father.
I don't know whether it was Mr.
Borden or father. I am afraid heis stabbed. And just the same as
I have said.
D.A. Knowlton (15:54):
Was it not very apparent when you went in that
he was not only stabbed but verymuch cut up? Was it not very
apparent that he was very badlycut up?
Dr. Bowen (16:03):
Yes.
D.A. Knowlton (16:04):
Have you attended Miss Lizzie since that time?
Dr. Bowen (16:07):
Since it was done?
Yes. I have seen her every day.
D.A. Knowlton (16:09):
Has she had any physical difficulties? Been ill?
I ask mostly on account of thenewspapers they say she has had
fainting fits.
Dr. Bowen (16:18):
Nothing more than I should expect nothing special no
more than I would expect fromanybody that is undergoing a
severe strain.
Fainting Lizzie (16:26):
Oh oh, I think I'm going to faint.
D.A. Knowlton (16:31):
Has not fainted?
Dr. Bowen (16:32):
No, sir, not fainted.
By the way I might put in itdoes not connect, but I will go
back to the time when I camedown. The second time. I can
describe her condition at thattime. When I came downstairs the
second time, after I found themother was dead. Miss Russell
was at her side in a chair andwas working over her at that
time. In a minute or two. Shegot her into the dining room on
a sofa or lounge on the end ofthat she was lying down and she
(16:55):
was fanning her and had wetclothes put on her head and they
were working over her in thatway.
D.A. Knowlton (17:01):
Was she faint?
Narrator (17:04):
Oh oh oh...I think I'm going to faint...
Dr. Bowen (17:08):
Not as far as I know of it that time as I found two
people murdered there, I supposethe rest would take care of
themselves pretty well.
Narrator (17:15):
And now we pause this interview to bring you a letter
written to District AttorneyHosea Knowlton about THAT NOTE
known as HK332 by the ReverendRichard M. Devins.
Rev. R.M. Devens (17:29):
Over the the 80,000 people of Fall River, not
one during after all that 10months has ever come forward in
the interest of justice,friendship, or humanity to say
that they ONE! Wrote that noteor caused it to be written or
sent it or by whom, TWO! Nobodyhas ever come forward to say
(17:52):
that a note from Mrs. Borden wasentrusted to them that day and
was delivered and to whom.
THREE! Nobody of the 100s of1000s acquainted with Mrs. B. or
with her marked personality for30 years past has ever come
forward to say that they spokewith her or met her or saw her
(18:13):
on the streets coming out goingon that day. Reverend R.M.
Devens!
D.A. Knowlton (18:23):
Had you known of anybody working around the house
there recently before that?
Dr. Bowen (18:28):
No, sir. I did not know of anybody if they had been
I don't know as I should haveknown it.
D.A. Knowlton (18:33):
Do you know whether Mr. Borden kept axes or
hatches?
Dr. Bowen (18:36):
Oh, no, Sir.
D.A. Knowlton (18:37):
You did not go into his affairs enough for
that?
Dr. Bowen (18:40):
Oh no, sir. I'd never went into the cellar in my life
as I remember of.
D.A. Knowlton (18:44):
Were you intimate enough with the family to know
what the relations were betweenMr. And Mrs. Borden?
Dr. Bowen (18:49):
In what way?
D.A. Knowlton (18:50):
As husband and wife were they cordial and
intimate and affectionate?
Dr. Bowen (18:55):
So far as I ever saw, I never saw anything to the
contrary. That is all I can tellof course.
D.A. Knowlton (19:01):
You had no reason to suppose to the contrary?
Dr. Bowen (19:03):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (19:05):
Had you enough knowledge of the relations to
know what the relations werebetween Miss Emma and her
stepmother?
Dr. Bowen (19:10):
From all I ever saw or heard directly myself I don't
know anything but what theywere. If you want to hearsay I
can tell all there is in thepapers.
D.A. Knowlton (19:21):
Did you know of the relations between Miss
Lizzie and the stepmother?
Dr. Bowen (19:26):
I think the relations were I should judge by what I
have seen seeing them together.
Good deal. I should judge thatthe relations were harmonious
and perfect and natural.
D.A. Knowlton (19:34):
Did you ever hear Lizzie say anything about her
stepmother?
Dr. Bowen (19:38):
I don't think I ever did.
D.A. Knowlton (19:40):
How did she address her? Do you remember?
Dr. Bowen (19:42):
Well, I don't know.
I'm sure I don't remember Inever was in the house except on
business affairs and connectedwith sickness.
D.A. Knowlton (19:49):
Suppose Miss Lizzie and Miss Emma should say
that the relations were notpleasant. Would you be surprised
from what you've seen of it?
Dr. Bowen (19:57):
If they should say so? I don't know anything to the
contrary. I don't know anythingin favor of it. I spoke from all
I ever saw and heard directlymyself.
D.A. Knowlton (20:06):
Did Miss Lizzie tell you at any time where she
was when this thing happened?
Dr. Bowen (20:11):
The first time when an inquiry was made where Mrs.
Borden was?
D.A. Knowlton (20:14):
No. Did she tell you where she was herself when
her father was killed?
Dr. Bowen (20:19):
Yes. She said the first time or I won't say when
very early that she was out ofdoors out to the barn had been
out for a while.
D.A. Knowlton (20:26):
Did she say how long she had been there?
Dr. Bowen (20:28):
No, I don't think she did. I don't remember her saying
how long I don't doubt but Iasked the question where she
was. She said she was out in thebarn.
D.A. Knowlton (20:36):
Didn't she say what she was doing there?
Dr. Bowen (20:38):
She told me sometime.
I don't know whether just thenor a short time afterwards that
she was looking after some ironsor tin. The remarks she made the
first time was that she waslooking after some irons, not
not flat irons. I mean irons. Itmight have been pieces of iron
irons was the word used. Says Iwhere was Bridget I don't know
but I asked Bridget. Somebodysaid one of them said Bridget
(20:58):
had been washing windows and shewent upstairs and was upstairs
when those questions were askedwhether it was before I went
down to telegraph or after Idon't know I have the impression
it was before.
D.A. Knowlton (21:11):
When was this that Lizzie told you she was out
around looking for iron?
Dr. Bowen (21:16):
I've the impression it was very soon after I went
over first.
D.A. Knowlton (21:19):
Were you the first one to see Mrs. Borden?
Dr. Bowen (21:22):
No, sir. I was not. I was sent out by Mrs. Churchill.
Mr. Churchill says we have foundMrs. Borden. I says where is
she? She is upstairs. Go rightup.
D.A. Knowlton (21:32):
Did you notice whether the front door was shut
or not?
Dr. Bowen (21:35):
If it had been open I think I should have known it.
D.A. Knowlton (21:38):
You did not attempt to go in or out the
front door. No, sir. You did notnotice whether the front door
was open or not.
Dr. Bowen (21:44):
If it had been open.
I think I should have noticedit. I don't think it was open.
D.A. Knowlton (21:48):
Did Miss Lizzie have her meal sent up? You say
she went to her room and stayedthere?
Dr. Bowen (21:53):
Yes. They got some toast. I think they went over to
my house across the street andtoasted some white bread for
her. I don't think she ate it. Idon't know about that, though.
Perhaps they got some tea.
D.A. Knowlton (22:03):
Was Dr. Abbott there?
Dr. Bowen (22:05):
Dr. Abbott was there some time.
D.A. Knowlton (22:07):
Not that day?
Dr. Bowen (22:08):
Yes, that day.
D.A. Knowlton (22:10):
I got a rumor that some comment was passed
between you and him about thesize or quantity of the amount
of food that was sent up to her.
Dr. Bowen (22:17):
Between Dr. Abbott and I? Never a word I would
swear to that. Not a word. I didnot know anything about it.
Never anybody except my wife hasmentioned the fact. I knew Alice
I think came over and got sometea and white bread toast. Then
I think my wife said she did noteat any of it or something to
that effect. I accidentallyheard of it. That is all.
D.A. Knowlton (22:38):
Was Mr. Borden a man of quick temper?
Dr. Bowen (22:41):
Well, no, I should not hardly think that he was a
man of quick temper.
D.A. Knowlton (22:45):
If they're going upstairs. Does not that front
door if it is open does not shutoff the stairs. You You cannot
go upstairs when the doors open.
You have to shut the door to getup the hall so narrow. Is that
not so?
Dr. Bowen (22:58):
Perhaps so.
D.A. Knowlton (22:59):
Don't open back against the stairs?
Dr. Bowen (23:01):
Perhaps it does. I did rather think it did. At any
rate. You did not have to getrid of the front door to get
upstairs. No, sir. If the doorhad been open, I should have
seen it.
D.A. Knowlton (23:10):
Your impression is that the door was shut?
Dr. Bowen (23:13):
Yes, a very decided impression that the door was
shut.
D.A. Knowlton (23:16):
The Marshal reminds me to ask you don't you
think on recollection the firstman that got there after you did
was officer Allen?
Dr. Bowen (23:23):
I could not say it might have been.
D.A. Knowlton (23:25):
Do you remember of saying to Mr. Allen, go and
get the police as fast as youcan?
Dr. Bowen (23:29):
I said that to somebody, I was excited.
D.A. Knowlton (23:32):
Have you been able to fix the time when you
first went over to the house?
Dr. Bowen (23:35):
I have changed my mind on the time. I had no means
only I had no means only guessat first, but I deliberated and
finding out as near as I can. Itmust have been I must have
stopped my horse in front of myhouse not very far from 10
minutes past 11. That is about10 minutes earlier than I
thought at first. But on askingmy boy he told me where I was at
(23:56):
a certain time when the clockstruck by thinking it over
sufficiently. I think it wasearlier than my first
impression. My first impressionwas just an impression.
D.A. Knowlton (24:03):
What was your first impression?
Dr. Bowen (24:05):
Between 20 and 25? On further reflection on further
reflection and judging from whatmy boy told me where I was and
who we met at a certain time, Ithink it must have been quite a
good deal earlier.
D.A. Knowlton (24:16):
About what time do you now think it was?
Dr. Bowen (24:19):
Not very far from 10 minutes past 11 It might have
been five or 10 minutes eitherway when I drove up to the house
and went in.
D.A. Knowlton (24:27):
When you got the news and went in?
Dr. Bowen (24:29):
Yes sir. I could not have stayed in there more than
five minutes. I went directly tothe house and down to the
telegraph office and must havebeen back at half past 11.
D.A. Knowlton (24:37):
You think you did stay in the Borden house five
minutes?
Dr. Bowen (24:40):
I don't believe it was more than five. I am only
guessing.
D.A. Knowlton (24:43):
Do you think it was more than two?
Dr. Bowen (24:45):
It might not have been.
D.A. Knowlton (24:47):
Who's was the first person you notified the
thing.
Dr. Bowen (24:50):
The first I spoke was in Baker's drugstore. Samuel
Flint was in the store stood atthe corner I told him Mr. Borden
was murdered.
D.A. Knowlton (24:57):
That was on your first visit downtown.
Dr. Bowen (24:59):
I went directly from the telegraph office right to
the store across the street.
D.A. Knowlton (25:02):
You wrote a dispatch here?
Dr. Bowen (25:04):
I wrote a dispatch and paid for it and sent it.
D.A. Knowlton (25:07):
Have you looked at the dispatch to see what time
it was?
Dr. Bowen (25:10):
No, sir. I have not.
I suppose the time would be onthat. That would show exactly
the time.
D.A. Knowlton (25:15):
That was the first thing you did afterwards?
Dr. Bowen (25:17):
I drove directly to the office from my house.
D.A. Knowlton (25:21):
Had you just as leave go with Mr. Seaver over
there and get out that dispatchand see if it marks the time?
Dr. Bowen (25:26):
Yes, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (25:28):
After writing the dispatch, you told Mr. Flint?
Dr. Bowen (25:30):
Yes. I went directly across South Main Street. I was
well acquainted with Mr. Flint,and I told him about it and then
left him and got into thecarriage and drove back again to
the Borden house and went in asecond time.
D.A. Knowlton (25:43):
You did not notify any policeman?
Dr. Bowen (25:45):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (25:46):
How soon after you got back the second time?
Was it before the officer gotthere?
Dr. Bowen (25:51):
I don't know. I could not say.
D.A. Knowlton (25:52):
Where was you in the clock struck 11?
Dr. Bowen (25:54):
My boy said that I was on South Main Street and we
met a fire department team nearthe head of Union. We heard the
clock strike.
D.A. Knowlton (26:01):
You mean your own son?
Dr. Bowen (26:02):
My driver.
D.A. Knowlton (26:03):
You don't know anything about that message from
Mrs. Borden to go out nursingsomewhere that day?
Dr. Bowen (26:09):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (26:09):
Now you figure from that it would take you
something like 10 minutes to getdown?
Dr. Bowen (26:13):
No, it would not take over five
D.A. Knowlton (26:16):
How do you get the 10 minutes?
Dr. Bowen (26:18):
I leave a leeway of 10 minutes I did not mark it
definitely.
Narrator (27:00):
You've been listening to the inquest of Dr. Seabury
Bowen from the Lizzie Bordentrial in August of 1892. Played
by David Loftus, the role ofDistrict Attorney Hosea
Knowlton, played by Tim Dennis,the fainting Lizzie was played
by Rena Sklar. Special thanks toKBOO radio host and historian
(27:23):
Ken Jones from the popularpodcast Jonesy, the show that
brings you conversations withthe most interesting people in
the world of books, podcasts,radio, theater, music and humor
guaranteed to entertain andenlighten. Catch Ken's show on
KBOO.fm.org. That's "Jonesy" andthanks for writing us a review,
(27:44):
Jonesy. And High Desert Sporesin Milwaukee, Oregon. Your
everything shop for the homemushroom grower. Check them out
at HighDesertSpores.com. Podcastcreator and influencer Courtney
Kosak is a best friend topodcasters trying to grow and
monetize their show with jobs,industry info, craft and
(28:05):
marketing tips with their newshow Podcast Bestie. It debuted
at number one on Apple's New &Noteworthy. That's Podcast
Bestie and thanks for being aLizzie lover, Courtney. Trial
testimony transcripts providedwith permission by Stefani
Koorey andLizzieAndrewBorden.com. Excerpts
(28:26):
of letters written to D.A. HoseaKnowlton from The Knowlton
Papers published by the FallRiver Historical Society, HK 130
and HK 332 was performed byCranky Pants T.D. Dennis. Music
provided by Alex Gray... TheGargoyles of Notre Dame,
(28:49):
produced by Kate Lavender. AndI'm Don Sharp, and I'll see you
in the next one.
And now HK 130.
Rev. R.M. Devens (00:03):
Dear Sir! There has been a deal said about
the impossibility of LizzieBorden killing her father and
mother without her clothingbeing stained with blood. Now
every woman knows that hergossamer waterproof cloak such
as every woman owns will protectthe clothing completely and that
a fire hot enough for ourironing would reduce it to ashes
(00:23):
in less than five minutes. Ihave heard the subject discussed
among women who claim to know.
Narrator (01:02):
And now, the inquest of Doctor Seabury Bowen shortly
after the murders of Andrew andAbby Borden in the summer of
1892.
D.A. Knowlton (01:20):
Doctor Seabury W.
Bowen?
Dr. Bowen (01:22):
Yes.
D.A. Knowlton (01:23):
You are a physician?
Dr. Bowen (01:25):
Yes.
D.A. Knowlton (01:25):
You live next to the Bordens?
Dr. Bowen (01:27):
Yes.
D.A. Knowlton (01:28):
How long have you lived there?
Dr. Bowen (01:29):
I lived across the street from Mr. Borden 20 years.
D.A. Knowlton (01:32):
You undoubtedly were well acquainted with the
family?
Dr. Bowen (01:35):
Yes, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (01:36):
And intimately so?
Dr. Bowen (01:37):
Well, yes.
D.A. Knowlton (01:39):
You were their family physician?
Dr. Bowen (01:40):
Yes, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (01:41):
They did not need much doctoring?
Dr. Bowen (01:43):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (01:44):
Had you attended Mr. Borden recently previous to
his being killed?
Dr. Bowen (01:48):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (01:49):
Had you give him any Bismuth powders or anything
of that sort?
Dr. Bowen (01:52):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (01:53):
Do you know whether he had any such things
around the house?
Dr. Bowen (01:56):
I don't know.
D.A. Knowlton (01:58):
Have you ever prescribed them for him?
Dr. Bowen (02:00):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (02:01):
Or for any member of the family?
Dr. Bowen (02:02):
Not that I remember of. I don't think I have.
D.A. Knowlton (02:05):
So far as you know, he was a man that knew
enough about that branch ofscience to take medicine himself
if he had occasion to.
Dr. Bowen (02:12):
That is a question I could not answer. I am sure I
don't know.
D.A. Knowlton (02:16):
Assuming that Bismuth was found in his
stomach. You would not have anyidea how it got there.
Dr. Bowen (02:21):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (02:23):
You had not been called that week to the family?
Dr. Bowen (02:25):
No, sir. I had not been called. I went over to see
them. The day before Wednesdaymorning. About eight o'clock or
before eight Mrs. Borden came tothe door and said she was
frightened, said that she wasafraid she was poisoned. I told
her to come in. She sat down andshe said the night before about
nine o'clock she and her husbandcommenced to vomit and vomited
(02:46):
for two or three hours until 12,I understood.
What morning was this?
Wednesday morning. I asked herwhat she had eaten for supper
and she told me she said she hadeaten some Baker's white bread
and she had heard of Baker'scream cakes being poisonous and
was afraid there was somethingpoisonous in the bread that made
her vomit. She said she onlyate cake and Baker's white
(03:06):
bread. At that time. She had asort of eructation of vomiting,
slightly. I was afraid she wasgoing to vomit there. I rather
got ready for her. I told her togo home and told her what to
take and she took it.
D.A. Knowlton (03:17):
Do you recollect what it was you prescribed for
her?
Dr. Bowen (03:20):
I told her to take some castor oil and take it in a
little port wine to take thetaste off. And probably that
would be all she would want. Ithink immediately after
breakfast. I thought they wereneighbors. I would just go over.
Before that she said Lizzie camedown. She heard them vomiting. I
think she was in the next room.
And she was up too and shecommenced to vomit at that time
about 12. I thought if they didnot call me I would go over and
(03:41):
make a friendly call. I wentover after breakfast. And then
Bridget let me in. I'm very sureit was the front door. I says
Mr. Borden, what is the matter?
He looked at me and wanted toknow if anybody had sent for me.
I told him no. Mrs. Borden wasover. I thought I would just
come over and see he seemed wellenough then. He said he felt a
(04:02):
little heavy and did not feeljust right. But he said he did
not think he needed anymedicine. I did not urge him at
all, of course, and I went home.
I did not think much about it. Isaw Mr. Borden out two or three
hours afterwards. When I wentin. I saw Lizzie run upstairs.
Mrs. Borden? I did not seebecause I had seen her before.
D.A. Knowlton (04:20):
Did you see Lizzie that morning?
Dr. Bowen (04:22):
She was just going upstairs as I went in the front
door. I thought it was her. I'mnot quite sure.
D.A. Knowlton (04:28):
That it was somebody you thought was Lizzie?
Dr. Bowen (04:30):
Yes, sir. Somebody I suppose was Lizzie, I did not
see her face.
D.A. Knowlton (04:33):
And you did not talk to her?
Dr. Bowen (04:35):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (04:35):
You did not see them again to speak to them
before they were killed?
Dr. Bowen (04:38):
No, I did not see any of them to speak to them. I
don't think I'm very certain Idid not.
D.A. Knowlton (04:44):
Where did you afterwards see Mr. Borden? Did
you see him Thursday?
Dr. Bowen (04:49):
Don't remember of seeing him Thursday might
possibly I saw him Wednesday.
Walking along between the sidedoor and gate. Lizzie I saw
walking up the street and Iconcluded they were all right
all them.
D.A. Knowlton (05:00):
You don't recollect seeing Mr. Borden out
on the street Thursday at all.
Dr. Bowen (05:04):
I don't recollect it.
D.A. Knowlton (05:06):
Did you see Mrs.
Borden on Thursday?
Dr. Bowen (05:08):
No, I did not see her Thursday. I don't remember.
D.A. Knowlton (05:11):
Did you see Lizzie on Thursday before you
were called in?
Dr. Bowen (05:15):
I don't think I did.
I don't remember seeing any ofthem. I started off probably at
nine o'clock.
D.A. Knowlton (05:20):
You go out on your travels at nine o'clock or
thereabouts?
Dr. Bowen (05:22):
I intend to.
D.A. Knowlton (05:24):
You get back when or no habit about it?
Dr. Bowen (05:26):
I intend to be around probably once an hour if I can.
D.A. Knowlton (05:30):
What was the first information that you had
of the tragedy?
Dr. Bowen (05:33):
I drove up to my house and my wife came to the
door and made a motion and saysthey want you quick to Mr.
Bordon's the same time I thinkThomas Bowles a man works across
the street told me at the sametime, I don't know which was
first. I thought probably theywere worse. So I went right over
quick.
D.A. Knowlton (05:49):
When you got there. Who did you find?
Dr. Bowen (05:51):
I found Miss Lizzie.
D.A. Knowlton (05:52):
Anybody else?
Dr. Bowen (05:54):
Bridget.
D.A. Knowlton (05:55):
You were the first outsider to get there?
Dr. Bowen (05:57):
So far as I know.
D.A. Knowlton (05:58):
Mrs. Churchill had not then got there?
Dr. Bowen (06:00):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (06:01):
Did Ms. Lizzie speak to you?
Dr. Bowen (06:02):
Yes, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (06:03):
Tell exactly what happened now.
Dr. Bowen (06:05):
I went to the door, and I met them in the hall. I
went in the side door. I thoughtI would get in there quicker. I
was so much in a hurry. Ihappened to go that way. I met
Miss Lizzie in the hall andBridget. I says, Lizzie what is
the matter? I spoke prettyquick. I say what is the matter?
Lizzie? She said she was afraidher father had been stabbed or
hurt. I think the word stabbedwas used. I says has there been
(06:27):
anybody here? She said no, notas she knew of I would not say
that. She said no. I take thatback. She said not as she knew
of, I think. She said she hadoverheard her father several
times talking loud recently andsaid she was afraid some of the
tenants had had some troublewith him. That is just as near
as I can remember it.
D.A. Knowlton (06:46):
That conversation took place immediately?
Dr. Bowen (06:49):
That took place immediately. The first thing I
said where is he? The door wasshut as it usually is. I never
saw it open hardly between thekitchen and sitting room. I went
through the dining room.
D.A. Knowlton (06:59):
You said where is he? And what answer did she
give?
Dr. Bowen (07:03):
In the sitting room.
She beckoned along through thedining room, I went through the
dining room to the door betweenthe dining room and the sitting
room that was directly at thehead of the sofa. As soon as I
got at the door, I could see thewhole room and saw him because I
was prepared for somethingawful. As I did not hear him and
there was no sound. He lay therestill unrecognizable. His face
was cut in such a manner I nevershould have known who it was. I
(07:24):
stepped in a second lookedaround the room to see if there
was any disturbance. It struckme like a flash to see if there
was anything left in the room.
Then I went right back again andtold them that their father was
dead. I took hold of his pulseand found that he was dead
satisfied myself. I did not knowthat he was when I saw him. I
took hold of his pulse and foundhe was pulseless. Then I went
(07:46):
back and informed them that hewas dead.
Then what? Then what did she sayto that? Or what did she do?
I can't tell I don't know. I wasstunned myself.
D.A. Knowlton (07:54):
What was said about the mother, if anything?
Dr. Bowen (07:56):
There was an inquiry made I don't know whether I made
it somebody said Where is Mrs.
Borden? Where is Mrs. Borden?
Lizzie said I think I think shesaid she had a note this morning
to go and see a sick friend.
That is all such a seriousaffairs that I did not stop and
could not do anything. I wassatisfied of that. In that time.
I said I must go and get some ofthe officers right off. Perhaps
I said I would get the officers.
(08:19):
Lizzie said that Emma was inFairhaven and wanted me to
telegraph to her before I wentout she said if you telegraph to
her, perhaps she will come onthis noon train. I went directly
across to my house, told my wifeand told her about telegraphing.
I was satisfied. She could notcome on the noon train direct.
So my boy drove me down to thetelegraph office and I
telegraphed to Miss Emma Borden.
D.A. Knowlton (08:40):
You would not then heard that the mother had
been killed too?
Dr. Bowen (08:43):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (08:44):
And then I went across to Baker's Drugstore I
motioned the boy to come along.
I stopped two to three minutesthere and told them of it. When
I came out. I got in my carriageagain and drove directly to the
house again and stopped at Mr.
Borden's door and went in. Therewere no crowds there at that
time that I remember of. I droveup on his side and told the boy
to stand there.
Had the crowd began to collect?
Dr. Bowen (09:06):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (09:06):
The news had not got around?
Dr. Bowen (09:08):
No, sir. I don't know as I saw anybody going in at
that time. Then I went directlyto the same side door and was
met there by Mrs. Churchill andAlice Russell. I think Mrs.
Churchill, I'm sure one of them.
Somebody I think Mrs. Churchillsaid they have found Mrs.
Borden. I said where she saidshe was upstairs. You better go
up. Then I went upstairs.
D.A. Knowlton (09:30):
Up the front stairs?
Dr. Bowen (09:31):
Yes, went up the front stairs. As I got at the
top of the stairs. As soon as Igot up on the second story, I
could look right over the bedand I saw her lying there flat
prone. My thought was that shehad run up there and fainted. I
went right around the foot ofthe bed and satisfied myself in
an instant that she was notliving. I don't know whether I
got ahold of her pulse but Isatisfied myself some way I
(09:54):
don't know how that she was notliving. I went right downstairs
again and told them Mrs. Bordenwas dead killed the same instant
I think I said that.
D.A. Knowlton (10:01):
When you looked over the bed and saw the form on
the floor, where were you in thehallway?
Dr. Bowen (10:07):
I think I must have been. I don't think I should
probably have looked until I gotup to the top of the stairs. I
could if I had been looking,I've looked as soon as my head
got level, I might then haveseen her under the bed. I went
directly up fast. And as soon asI looked in the door, I looked
over the bed.
D.A. Knowlton (10:23):
When you looked over the bed and saw the form on
the floor, where were you in thehallway?
Dr. Bowen (10:28):
Not exactly. You would have to come up to the
head of the stairs and go back alittle.
D.A. Knowlton (10:32):
So where was she lying? You could see it from the
head of the stairs. You wentdownstairs and what then?
Dr. Bowen (10:38):
I told them she was dead. Then it's pretty confused.
The rest of it along there forsome time. I could not say who
they were exactly. They keptcoming and going. I told Bridget
to get a sheet and covered upMr. Borden and kept the door
shut so the women would not seeand let the men go along.
D.A. Knowlton (10:54):
When you came back from going down the street.
Who did you find there besidesthose you named?
Dr. Bowen (10:59):
I named Mrs.
Churchill and Lizzie Borden andMiss Russell and Bridget. Do you
mean when I came back fromupstairs?
D.A. Knowlton (11:06):
No, downtown.
Dr. Bowen (11:08):
Whether Mr. Sawyer was there before I got back from
downtown or directly after Icannot tell myself. Mr. Charles
Sawyer was there very near Ithink the time.
D.A. Knowlton (11:18):
Was he a neighbor?
Dr. Bowen (11:19):
No, I don't know where he does live. I have known
him some time.
D.A. Knowlton (11:23):
When you came down from upstairs. Were more
there?
Dr. Bowen (11:26):
Yes. My wife was there then. I told her to go
right home.
D.A. Knowlton (11:29):
Had anybody else besides your wife come?
Dr. Bowen (11:31):
I could not swear to that.
D.A. Knowlton (11:33):
If you are not sure Mr. Sawyer had got there
when you came in from downtown.
Was he there when you came downfrom upstairs?
Dr. Bowen (11:39):
I know he was there.
Almost the first man I could notswear to that.
D.A. Knowlton (11:43):
If you are not sure Mr. Sawyer had got there
when you came in from downtown.
Was he there when you came downfrom upstairs?
Dr. Bowen (11:49):
I don't know whether Mr. Allen came before Sawyer or
not. I don't think it was therebefore I started out in town.
D.A. Knowlton (11:55):
How long before the first police officer came
pretty soon after that, so faras you remember now accepting
the three that you have namedSawyer, possibly and Mrs.
Churchill and Alice Russell.
Were the only ones that hadgotten there.
Dr. Bowen (12:07):
I could not say and Bridget I don't remember if
seeing anybody I would not wantto say.
D.A. Knowlton (12:12):
It did not take you a great while to go down and
back?
Dr. Bowen (12:15):
I drove right down to the office quick.
D.A. Knowlton (12:17):
Your horse was there already?
Dr. Bowen (12:18):
Yes, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (12:19):
You notify the police office?
Dr. Bowen (12:21):
I notified somebody there to get the police. I told
them at the house
D.A. Knowlton (12:24):
When you came back?
Dr. Bowen (12:25):
Yes, sir. At the house.
D.A. Knowlton (12:26):
The second time you came to the house the crowd
had not begun to collect?
Dr. Bowen (12:30):
I don't remember seeing anybody on the sidewalk.
There was no carriage there as Idrove up under the tree close to
the door.
D.A. Knowlton (12:36):
You do not remember seeing Morse when you
got back the second time?
Dr. Bowen (12:40):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (12:40):
Nor when you got down from upstairs?
Dr. Bowen (12:43):
No, sir. Not directly. I did not see him for
some little time. I don't knowwhen.
D.A. Knowlton (12:47):
Had the crowd began to collect a great deal
when he came?
Dr. Bowen (12:51):
Yes. A good many were there. I can't say who... people
that I knew. I knew almosteverybody that came in.
D.A. Knowlton (12:57):
Did Bridget have anything to say when you first
went into the house at all?
Dr. Bowen (13:00):
I don't know. I can't remember.
D.A. Knowlton (13:02):
Was Mr. Borden's body warm when you felt it?
Dr. Bowen (13:05):
There was nothing that attracted my attention. The
main thing was I found he wasdead.
D.A. Knowlton (13:10):
Which would more likely attract your attention
because coldness would attractmy attention?
Dr. Bowen (13:15):
He was pulseless that is what would attract me. If he
was cold it would attract myattention.
D.A. Knowlton (13:21):
You infer inferentially that he was not
cold?
Dr. Bowen (13:24):
I don't think he was cold. I think if he had been
cold it would attract myattention. Probably it might and
might not. I felt of his pulseand found it was pulseless and
found he was dead. I did notstop for a minute in the room I
don't suppose.
D.A. Knowlton (13:37):
As he looked at you when you went in was it
pretty plain that he was badlycut up?
Dr. Bowen (13:41):
Oh, yes, Sir. I did not recognize him. I should not
have recognized him.
D.A. Knowlton (13:45):
Was the blood on his face?
Dr. Bowen (13:47):
Yes, the blood was on his face and his eyeball cut
directly in two he lay on hisright side. The right side of
his face was not seen I saw thewhole of the cut then and none
of the healthy part.
D.A. Knowlton (13:58):
Do you recollect how Lizzie was dressed that
morning.
Dr. Bowen (14:00):
It is pretty hardwork for me probably if I could see a
dress something like it I couldguess but I could not describe
it was sort of a drab or notmuch color of to it to attract
my attention. Sort of a morningCalico dress I should judge.
D.A. Knowlton (14:14):
Did she change her dress?
Dr. Bowen (14:16):
She changed her dress sometime in the course of two or
three hours. I noticed she hadon a wrapper I think afterwards.
She didn't do that until shewent up into a room to stay.
D.A. Knowlton (14:25):
When did she go up to her room to stay?
Dr. Bowen (14:27):
It is pretty hard saying what time. Very soon
after the crowd I should say. Itis pretty hard saying how long I
could not tell.
D.A. Knowlton (14:36):
When you first came, you all came to the side
door?
Dr. Bowen (14:39):
Yes sir.
D.A. Knowlton (14:40):
Where was she standing? Exactly.
Dr. Bowen (14:42):
I could not say exactly where whether she met me
at the end of the entry or whereI could not say I have the
impression now that she was atthe side door and opened the
screen door and the door washalf opened and ready for me
that that is my impression.
D.A. Knowlton (14:57):
Where was Bridget?
Dr. Bowen (14:58):
She was very near the entry was very short and she was
very near I could not sayexactly.
D.A. Knowlton (15:03):
What was Miss Lizzie's appearance and manner.
Dr. Bowen (15:06):
Well, she was excited and well, it's hard to describe
it. She was somewhat excited ina hurry for me to come.
D.A. Knowlton (15:13):
In tears?
Dr. Bowen (15:14):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (15:15):
What was Miss Bridget's appearance and manner?
Dr. Bowen (15:18):
She was calm so far as any excitement in her face
was concerned she was uneasy andexcited in action, but not in
her face. I don't think I'mprepared to say much about that.
D.A. Knowlton (15:28):
Perhaps you did not take much notice of Bridget.
Dr. Bowen (15:31):
I did not take much notice of either of them. The
main thing was to see what thematter was and get at it quick.
D.A. Knowlton (15:37):
The conversation with relation to Mr. Borden is
having had trouble with some manwas all right there.
Dr. Bowen (15:43):
Yes, before I went in to see him. She said Mr. Borden
I'm afraid is injured or father.
I don't know whether it was Mr.
Borden or father. I am afraid heis stabbed. And just the same as
I have said.
D.A. Knowlton (15:54):
Was it not very apparent when you went in that
he was not only stabbed but verymuch cut up? Was it not very
apparent that he was very badlycut up?
Dr. Bowen (16:03):
Yes.
D.A. Knowlton (16:04):
Have you attended Miss Lizzie since that time?
Dr. Bowen (16:07):
Since it was done?
Yes. I have seen her every day.
D.A. Knowlton (16:09):
Has she had any physical difficulties? Been ill?
I ask mostly on account of thenewspapers they say she has had
fainting fits.
Dr. Bowen (16:18):
Nothing more than I should expect nothing special no
more than I would expect fromanybody that is undergoing a
severe strain.
Fainting Lizzie (16:26):
Oh oh, I think I'm going to faint.
D.A. Knowlton (16:31):
Has not fainted?
Dr. Bowen (16:32):
No, sir, not fainted.
By the way I might put in itdoes not connect, but I will go
back to the time when I camedown. The second time. I can
describe her condition at thattime. When I came downstairs the
second time, after I found themother was dead. Miss Russell
was at her side in a chair andwas working over her at that
time. In a minute or two. Shegot her into the dining room on
a sofa or lounge on the end ofthat she was lying down and she
(16:55):
was fanning her and had wetclothes put on her head and they
were working over her in thatway.
D.A. Knowlton (17:01):
Was she faint?
Narrator (17:04):
Oh oh oh...I think I'm going to faint...
Dr. Bowen (17:08):
Not as far as I know of it that time as I found two
people murdered there, I supposethe rest would take care of
themselves pretty well.
Narrator (17:15):
And now we pause this interview to bring you a letter
written to District AttorneyHosea Knowlton about THAT NOTE
known as HK332 by the ReverendRichard M. Devins.
Rev. R.M. Devens (17:29):
Over the the 80,000 people of Fall River, not
one during after all that 10months has ever come forward in
the interest of justice,friendship, or humanity to say
that they ONE! Wrote that noteor caused it to be written or
sent it or by whom, TWO! Nobodyhas ever come forward to say
(17:52):
that a note from Mrs. Borden wasentrusted to them that day and
was delivered and to whom.
THREE! Nobody of the 100s of1000s acquainted with Mrs. B. or
with her marked personality for30 years past has ever come
forward to say that they spokewith her or met her or saw her
(18:13):
on the streets coming out goingon that day. Reverend R.M.
Devens!
D.A. Knowlton (18:23):
Had you known of anybody working around the house
there recently before that?
Dr. Bowen (18:28):
No, sir. I did not know of anybody if they had been
I don't know as I should haveknown it.
D.A. Knowlton (18:33):
Do you know whether Mr. Borden kept axes or
hatches?
Dr. Bowen (18:36):
Oh, no, Sir.
D.A. Knowlton (18:37):
You did not go into his affairs enough for
that?
Dr. Bowen (18:40):
Oh no, sir. I'd never went into the cellar in my life
as I remember of.
D.A. Knowlton (18:44):
Were you intimate enough with the family to know
what the relations were betweenMr. And Mrs. Borden?
Dr. Bowen (18:49):
In what way?
D.A. Knowlton (18:50):
As husband and wife were they cordial and
intimate and affectionate?
Dr. Bowen (18:55):
So far as I ever saw, I never saw anything to the
contrary. That is all I can tellof course.
D.A. Knowlton (19:01):
You had no reason to suppose to the contrary?
Dr. Bowen (19:03):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (19:05):
Had you enough knowledge of the relations to
know what the relations werebetween Miss Emma and her
stepmother?
Dr. Bowen (19:10):
From all I ever saw or heard directly myself I don't
know anything but what theywere. If you want to hearsay I
can tell all there is in thepapers.
D.A. Knowlton (19:21):
Did you know of the relations between Miss
Lizzie and the stepmother?
Dr. Bowen (19:26):
I think the relations were I should judge by what I
have seen seeing them together.
Good deal. I should judge thatthe relations were harmonious
and perfect and natural.
D.A. Knowlton (19:34):
Did you ever hear Lizzie say anything about her
stepmother?
Dr. Bowen (19:38):
I don't think I ever did.
D.A. Knowlton (19:40):
How did she address her? Do you remember?
Dr. Bowen (19:42):
Well, I don't know.
I'm sure I don't remember Inever was in the house except on
business affairs and connectedwith sickness.
D.A. Knowlton (19:49):
Suppose Miss Lizzie and Miss Emma should say
that the relations were notpleasant. Would you be surprised
from what you've seen of it?
Dr. Bowen (19:57):
If they should say so? I don't know anything to the
contrary. I don't know anythingin favor of it. I spoke from all
I ever saw and heard directlymyself.
D.A. Knowlton (20:06):
Did Miss Lizzie tell you at any time where she
was when this thing happened?
Dr. Bowen (20:11):
The first time when an inquiry was made where Mrs.
Borden was?
D.A. Knowlton (20:14):
No. Did she tell you where she was herself when
her father was killed?
Dr. Bowen (20:19):
Yes. She said the first time or I won't say when
very early that she was out ofdoors out to the barn had been
out for a while.
D.A. Knowlton (20:26):
Did she say how long she had been there?
Dr. Bowen (20:28):
No, I don't think she did. I don't remember her saying
how long I don't doubt but Iasked the question where she
was. She said she was out in thebarn.
D.A. Knowlton (20:36):
Didn't she say what she was doing there?
Dr. Bowen (20:38):
She told me sometime.
I don't know whether just thenor a short time afterwards that
she was looking after some ironsor tin. The remarks she made the
first time was that she waslooking after some irons, not
not flat irons. I mean irons. Itmight have been pieces of iron
irons was the word used. Says Iwhere was Bridget I don't know
but I asked Bridget. Somebodysaid one of them said Bridget
(20:58):
had been washing windows and shewent upstairs and was upstairs
when those questions were askedwhether it was before I went
down to telegraph or after Idon't know I have the impression
it was before.
D.A. Knowlton (21:11):
When was this that Lizzie told you she was out
around looking for iron?
Dr. Bowen (21:16):
I've the impression it was very soon after I went
over first.
D.A. Knowlton (21:19):
Were you the first one to see Mrs. Borden?
Dr. Bowen (21:22):
No, sir. I was not. I was sent out by Mrs. Churchill.
Mr. Churchill says we have foundMrs. Borden. I says where is
she? She is upstairs. Go rightup.
D.A. Knowlton (21:32):
Did you notice whether the front door was shut
or not?
Dr. Bowen (21:35):
If it had been open I think I should have known it.
D.A. Knowlton (21:38):
You did not attempt to go in or out the
front door. No, sir. You did notnotice whether the front door
was open or not.
Dr. Bowen (21:44):
If it had been open.
I think I should have noticedit. I don't think it was open.
D.A. Knowlton (21:48):
Did Miss Lizzie have her meal sent up? You say
she went to her room and stayedthere?
Dr. Bowen (21:53):
Yes. They got some toast. I think they went over to
my house across the street andtoasted some white bread for
her. I don't think she ate it. Idon't know about that, though.
Perhaps they got some tea.
D.A. Knowlton (22:03):
Was Dr. Abbott there?
Dr. Bowen (22:05):
Dr. Abbott was there some time.
D.A. Knowlton (22:07):
Not that day?
Dr. Bowen (22:08):
Yes, that day.
D.A. Knowlton (22:10):
I got a rumor that some comment was passed
between you and him about thesize or quantity of the amount
of food that was sent up to her.
Dr. Bowen (22:17):
Between Dr. Abbott and I? Never a word I would
swear to that. Not a word. I didnot know anything about it.
Never anybody except my wife hasmentioned the fact. I knew Alice
I think came over and got sometea and white bread toast. Then
I think my wife said she did noteat any of it or something to
that effect. I accidentallyheard of it. That is all.
D.A. Knowlton (22:38):
Was Mr. Borden a man of quick temper?
Dr. Bowen (22:41):
Well, no, I should not hardly think that he was a
man of quick temper.
D.A. Knowlton (22:45):
If they're going upstairs. Does not that front
door if it is open does not shutoff the stairs. You You cannot
go upstairs when the doors open.
You have to shut the door to getup the hall so narrow. Is that
not so?
Dr. Bowen (22:58):
Perhaps so.
D.A. Knowlton (22:59):
Don't open back against the stairs?
Dr. Bowen (23:01):
Perhaps it does. I did rather think it did. At any
rate. You did not have to getrid of the front door to get
upstairs. No, sir. If the doorhad been open, I should have
seen it.
D.A. Knowlton (23:10):
Your impression is that the door was shut?
Dr. Bowen (23:13):
Yes, a very decided impression that the door was
shut.
D.A. Knowlton (23:16):
The Marshal reminds me to ask you don't you
think on recollection the firstman that got there after you did
was officer Allen?
Dr. Bowen (23:23):
I could not say it might have been.
D.A. Knowlton (23:25):
Do you remember of saying to Mr. Allen, go and
get the police as fast as youcan?
Dr. Bowen (23:29):
I said that to somebody, I was excited.
D.A. Knowlton (23:32):
Have you been able to fix the time when you
first went over to the house?
Dr. Bowen (23:35):
I have changed my mind on the time. I had no means
only I had no means only guessat first, but I deliberated and
finding out as near as I can. Itmust have been I must have
stopped my horse in front of myhouse not very far from 10
minutes past 11. That is about10 minutes earlier than I
thought at first. But on askingmy boy he told me where I was at
(23:56):
a certain time when the clockstruck by thinking it over
sufficiently. I think it wasearlier than my first
impression. My first impressionwas just an impression.
D.A. Knowlton (24:03):
What was your first impression?
Dr. Bowen (24:05):
Between 20 and 25? On further reflection on further
reflection and judging from whatmy boy told me where I was and
who we met at a certain time, Ithink it must have been quite a
good deal earlier.
D.A. Knowlton (24:16):
About what time do you now think it was?
Dr. Bowen (24:19):
Not very far from 10 minutes past 11 It might have
been five or 10 minutes eitherway when I drove up to the house
and went in.
D.A. Knowlton (24:27):
When you got the news and went in?
Dr. Bowen (24:29):
Yes sir. I could not have stayed in there more than
five minutes. I went directly tothe house and down to the
telegraph office and must havebeen back at half past 11.
D.A. Knowlton (24:37):
You think you did stay in the Borden house five
minutes?
Dr. Bowen (24:40):
I don't believe it was more than five. I am only
guessing.
D.A. Knowlton (24:43):
Do you think it was more than two?
Dr. Bowen (24:45):
It might not have been.
D.A. Knowlton (24:47):
Who's was the first person you notified the
thing.
Dr. Bowen (24:50):
The first I spoke was in Baker's drugstore. Samuel
Flint was in the store stood atthe corner I told him Mr. Borden
was murdered.
D.A. Knowlton (24:57):
That was on your first visit downtown.
Dr. Bowen (24:59):
I went directly from the telegraph office right to
the store across the street.
D.A. Knowlton (25:02):
You wrote a dispatch here?
Dr. Bowen (25:04):
I wrote a dispatch and paid for it and sent it.
D.A. Knowlton (25:07):
Have you looked at the dispatch to see what time
it was?
Dr. Bowen (25:10):
No, sir. I have not.
I suppose the time would be onthat. That would show exactly
the time.
D.A. Knowlton (25:15):
That was the first thing you did afterwards?
Dr. Bowen (25:17):
I drove directly to the office from my house.
D.A. Knowlton (25:21):
Had you just as leave go with Mr. Seaver over
there and get out that dispatchand see if it marks the time?
Dr. Bowen (25:26):
Yes, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (25:28):
After writing the dispatch, you told Mr. Flint?
Dr. Bowen (25:30):
Yes. I went directly across South Main Street. I was
well acquainted with Mr. Flint,and I told him about it and then
left him and got into thecarriage and drove back again to
the Borden house and went in asecond time.
D.A. Knowlton (25:43):
You did not notify any policeman?
Dr. Bowen (25:45):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (25:46):
How soon after you got back the second time?
Was it before the officer gotthere?
Dr. Bowen (25:51):
I don't know. I could not say.
D.A. Knowlton (25:52):
Where was you in the clock struck 11?
Dr. Bowen (25:54):
My boy said that I was on South Main Street and we
met a fire department team nearthe head of Union. We heard the
clock strike.
D.A. Knowlton (26:01):
You mean your own son?
Dr. Bowen (26:02):
My driver.
D.A. Knowlton (26:03):
You don't know anything about that message from
Mrs. Borden to go out nursingsomewhere that day?
Dr. Bowen (26:09):
No, sir.
D.A. Knowlton (26:09):
Now you figure from that it would take you
something like 10 minutes to getdown?
Dr. Bowen (26:13):
No, it would not take over five
D.A. Knowlton (26:16):
How do you get the 10 minutes?
Dr. Bowen (26:18):
I leave a leeway of 10 minutes I did not mark it
definitely.
Narrator (27:00):
You've been listening to the inquest of Dr. Seabury
Bowen from the Lizzie Bordentrial in August of 1892. Played
by David Loftus, the role ofDistrict Attorney Hosea
Knowlton, played by Tim Dennis,the fainting Lizzie was played
by Rena Sklar. Special thanks toKBOO radio host and historian
(27:23):
Ken Jones from the popularpodcast Jonesy, the show that
brings you conversations withthe most interesting people in
the world of books, podcasts,radio, theater, music and humor
guaranteed to entertain andenlighten. Catch Ken's show on
KBOO.fm.org. That's "Jonesy" andthanks for writing us a review,
(27:44):
Jonesy. And High Desert Sporesin Milwaukee, Oregon. Your
everything shop for the homemushroom grower. Check them out
at HighDesertSpores.com. Podcastcreator and influencer Courtney
Kosak is a best friend topodcasters trying to grow and
monetize their show with jobs,industry info, craft and
(28:05):
marketing tips with their newshow Podcast Bestie. It debuted
at number one on Apple's New &Noteworthy. That's Podcast
Bestie and thanks for being aLizzie lover, Courtney. Trial
testimony transcripts providedwith permission by Stefani
Koorey andLizzieAndrewBorden.com. Excerpts
(28:26):
of letters written to D.A. HoseaKnowlton from The Knowlton
Papers published by the FallRiver Historical Society, HK 130
and HK 332 was performed byCranky Pants T.D. Dennis. Music
provided by Alex Gray... TheGargoyles of Notre Dame,
(28:49):
produced by Kate Lavender. AndI'm Don Sharp, and I'll see you
in the next one.
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