Today, we're joined by Kayla Kallander, "The Mortgage Meteorologist". Kayla is the AVP Mortgage Advisor at First International Bank & Trust from West Fargo, North Dakota, who's also a Podcaster and Speaker. Kayla is an avid social media connector who also mentors & trains teams and individuals by helping amplify their brand presence through innovative social media strategies.
Kayla is here to discuss: → The keys for someone to be successful on social media. → Why you need to be taking the lead on discovery calls and asking the right questions. → And why now is the time to be looking at your systems and processes.
Kayla Kallander's LinkedIn: @KaylaKallander
Kayla Kallander's Instagram: @kaylakallandermortgage
Kayla Kallander's TikTok: @kaylakallander
Kayla Kallander's Facebook: @KaylaKallander
Kayla Kallander's Links: @KaylaKallander
Listen to Kayla's Podcast, "It's Real" here.
Learn more about the Direct to Consumer LO Accelerator here.
Loans On Demand Website: www.loansondemand.io
Loans On Demand YouTube: @LoansOnDemand
Loans On Demand Instagram: @loansondemand
Luke Shankula's Facebook: @LukeShankula
Luke Shankula's LinkedIn: @LukeShankula
Luke Shankula's Instagram: @lukeshankula
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
podcast, the show where we flipthe real estate status quo on its
head and put loan officers intothe driver's seat.
We give you all the tools,strategies, resources, and mindset
needed to modernize your mortgagebusiness and thrive.
My name is Luke Shankula, akaLongform Luke, and this is the
Loans On Demand podcast.
going on?
Welcome to the Loans On DemandPodcast, the show where we help
(00:25):
loan officers flip the status quoon real estate agents and put loan
officers in the driver's seat.
And I'm excited because today we
have Kayla Callender, or should Isay Callender?
I don't know.
She is the mortgage meteorologist,
big on social media.
And I'm excited because I think
we're going to get some big gemstoday.
So welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for here.
Hey, thanks for having me.
I love that you know how to say my
(00:45):
name, Kayla Callender.
This rolls off the tongue and
people say, is that your realname?
Yes, it is.
So thanks for having me.
I'm excited to just chat and getinto it here.
Awesome.
So I it's important.
It's funny because my buddy, hisname is Skylar, but he gets spells
with an A. He intentionallysometimes will misspell it because
people be like, wait, isn't itspelled like this?
It's like, yeah, names matter andpronouncing people's names and
spelling people's names matter.
(01:05):
So I get it.
It's that big of a deal, but somepeople get pretty offended about
it.
You never know who you might be
slightly offending by not takingit seriously.
So really, I do think it'simportant for people to try to say
people's names correctly and alsoto spell them correctly.
So anyway, let's get into who youare.
Like, give us a little backgroundon who Kayla is.
What has you in this crazyindustry?
What's kept you here, right?Oh, me a hard question right away.
(01:27):
What's kept me here?No one's asked me that.
I'm Kayla Callender.
I'm a mortgage lender in all 50
states.
And I've been in the business,
goodness, since about 2014.
So 10 years.
And one of the things about my jobis, you know, mortgage lending has
evolved significantly from paperapplications to, you know,
electronic to now we are in aspace of virtual social media and
(01:53):
being able to connect with peoplein ways we never have been.
And so for me, I think, you know,you ask what's kept me in this
business.
It's the relationships, a thousand
percent.
And not just relationships with
clients, relationships withrealtors and financial planners
and referral partners.
And then, you know, being that
lender for the family again, yearsto come.
And it's just really cool to bepart of something so significant.
(02:17):
But I also think that one thingthat has got me in here is I am
really good at educating myborrower, really good at putting
content out to educate.
And I think that's something
that's missing in our world ofmortgage, especially in the last
few years, it's transactiontransaction, where now we've had
to really show who we are and howto connect.
And that truly is what's kept mein it, I obviously, the reason I
(02:40):
ask is because, you know, it'spretty easy to know why people are
in the industry in years like 2020and 21.
Yeah, but in years like 22 and 23,when we're getting our butt beat
by the market, and, you know,we're having the worst year since
1995.
Like, you know, that's having the
worst year since 1995.
Like, you know, that's a good
question to Because ask.
ultimately, like, you're in this
industry, because you'repassionate, and you stay in this
(03:01):
industry, because you actually,you know, love what you're doing,
right?Yeah, the money's great.
And you know, there's good years,but obviously, years when most of
the market is down 40, 50, 60%.
It's not as much of a no brainer
to be in the mortgage industry.
So understanding sort of the
background and makes you sort ofpassionate about this industry is,
I think, important to understand.
Because again, I think people that
come into the industry just forthe money, they're going to dip
out of the industry because theydon't have the money.
(03:23):
And for the people that have thestaying power to stay through
these hard times are the ones thatI think get rewarded on the other
side of this sort of turnaround.
Because I do think in the next, I
don't know, is it six months?Is it 18 months?
I don't know, there's gonna be anice little boom of business,
which is going to be good for thepeople that were able to stick
around.
have will be.
And it's been very telling thelast year or so, like, who's
really great at their job, andwho's the client, because it's
(03:45):
really easy to just take apps andlock loans.
And now you need to get granular.
And you need to be able to
articulate to your client, And nowyou need to get granular and you
need to be able to articulate toyour client what it takes to get a
mortgage.
And to also, Luke, navigate this
crazy, you know, rate environment,low inventory.
You almost need someone that'sgoing to empathize with you as you
go through such a big changeduring such a difficult market.
Yeah, 100%.
(04:06):
That's usually something we talk
to people about, too, is like somany people try to, you know, hide
behind this idea that they're justeducators.
And I'm like, okay, cool.
You're an educator, you're an
advisor, you're also asalesperson, and you know, better
a lot of times than the consumerdoes.
But I do think in this market,especially it's educating them on,
okay, you know what, let's look athistorically, how was the market
performed?I mean, other than like, let's say
2007, eight, nine, or whateverthat period was, historically,
it's always been a pretty goodtime to buy a home, right?
(04:29):
I mean, if you can afford it, ifyou can afford the down payment,
if you can afford the monthlypayments, if you can afford it,
like buy it also, you know,understanding their situation.
And I talk about this all thetime.
But one of the things I say is theonline application is one of the
worst things to happen in themortgage industry.
And the reason I say that is notbecause of the app itself, but
because most people got lazy anddidn't do the work that you're
(04:49):
talking about and understandingthe situation.
Hey, I'm a guide.
I'm an educator.
I'm going to show you what thislooks like, preparing you for the
future.
So talk a little bit about that.
How do you approach each of yourclients from that perspective,
right?From the education, from all of
that stuff.
So You know, I love what you just
said, because I just got off acall with a client and I knew that
they were approved with anotherlender.
And I said, what was yourexperience like?
And she's like, well, my firsttime buying a house.
(05:10):
So, I like, And I'm like, OK, likeand I'll start to ask them because
I always have a discovery call.
I try to have the call even before
they apply.
I want to get to know what your
fears.
Why are you buying?
You know, what is the reason forthis?
And how many dogs do you have?And how old are your kids?
And there's so much going on whenyou think about know That in order
for me to really help somebody andunderstand what they need, you
(05:31):
need to have that discovery call,you need to have that hopes and
dreams and wishes and fears call.
And so I always start with that.
And then I get an application.
Then I know when I get the data, I
know exactly, okay, yeah, I knowthey were going to pay that off
or, oh, they said they were goingto have a job at, you know,
they're a doctor and they'regetting a new job.
I know that that's coming.
(05:51):
So it allows me to not all of a
sudden be creating the narrativein my head because I hadn't had
the conversation.
So I'm always having a
conversation, always, always.
And from there, I get an
application.
But as I always tell people, they
say, well, you know, we get thequestion, what's the right program
do I qualify for?I always say to my clients, I say,
you know, when you go to thedoctor, you don't just say, hey,
(06:11):
doc, not feeling good.
Can you give me that medicine?
That doesn't happen.
So I say, I need to do my analysis
and my x-rays and my blood workbefore I can then prescribe you
and diagnose you.
Because essentially prescription
without diagnosis is malpractice.
So when I say that, it kind of
clicks for them.
They're like, that's why Kayla's
asking me all these questions.
And what's really cool, Luke, is
when I ask all these questions,they say, no one's ever asked me
(06:34):
that.
Right.
That's great.
So in short, I have that call.
I have that discussion.
We get an app, we do all the
income and we really dive in.
And then we have another call and
we talk about, okay, I know yousaid you were comfortable with a
$4,000 payment.
Here's what we can approve you
for.
You know, we start to kind of then
connect the dots.
And I think just that piece of
(06:56):
having that call up front makessuch a difference in how people
people are like, okay, cool.
Like I'm not a salesperson.
That's because you have a wrongdefinition of what sales is.
Sales is ultimately leadership.
And it's like, Hey, you know what?
I'm not going to push something onyou that you shouldn't be buying.
Right.
If I truly believe like, and I
told me this all the time, I'mlike, Hey, guess what?
(07:16):
Rocket mortgage.
Like, do you think they're going
to care?Like they're going to put two
points on there.
They're going to do anything they
have to, to get that person toapply, to get them in process
because they understand thatobject and motion stay in motion.
And so they want to get thatperson to apply, to get them in
(07:39):
process, because they understandthat object and motion stay in
motion.
And so they want to get them into
process.
And so we're so scared to ask and
to get people to take that nextstep.
And it's like, why?Like, okay, I'm going to
over-educate someone, but I'm notgoing to ask for the business.
They're just going to go to thenext person who is going to ask,
right?And so I think a mix of the two
(08:00):
things.
But man, the quote that you said,
I say that quote all the time,prescription without diagnosis is
malpractice, because ultimatelythat is what you're doing.
And that is what actually sellspeople.
What sales is, is the discoveryprocess, is understanding their
pain points.
And so many people think that,
again, that the thing that sellspeople is the pitch, the rate, the
program, the this, the that.
If we don't understand what their
goals are, we are not being afiduciary.
I'm not saying necessarily loanofficers have that necessarily,
but they should.
We're not because we're not
understanding like, okay, so we'regonna put them in a 30 year fixed.
What if they plan on selling intwo years?
You didn't have that conversation.
(08:20):
So you don't know you're just
cookie cutter in them intosomething that maybe is not the
best thing for them.
Right?
So it's like, I get it ratematters to a certain extent.
But that's just because consumershave been taught to care about
rate, not because they actuallycare about rate.
Because if you ask most people,probably don't even know what the
rate is, right?I mean, maybe in the last couple
of years they do because everybodyloves to brag about their 2.75.
(08:41):
But maybe in normal markets,people aren't bragging about their
rates all the time.
And so, man, I love that you're
talking about that.
And that's part of the process
because I think so many loanofficers are missing out because
you talked about transactions.
They're so transactional.
And what I think you're doingofficers are missing out because
you talked about transactions.
They're so transactional.
And what I think you're doing isyou're probably capturing a
considerable amount of thefollow-ups, right?
The future transaction.
You've been in the industry for 10
years, so maybe you have some datato prove that.
(09:03):
Yeah.
And I think what I'm trying to do
is, you know, you had saidsomething that I'm finding is so
common is the client doesn't evenknow what to ask besides what's
right.
And so if we can get in front of
people quicker or educate ourreferral partners, like when you
tell them to go shop, don't justsay shop or rate, say, find out
how, you know, each lender thatyou refer to, if you need to send
your three, send your three, buttell them to shop, you know, not
(09:24):
just the rate, but what are theirfees?
What are their programs?Are they accessible?
Are they asking you questions?Are you getting along with them?
Do you have a vibe with them?And all people know what to ask is
what's the rate.
So we need to educate and educate
our partners as well.
A hundred percent.
I agree.
I mean, and let's not even get
into the three referrals thing,but I think that's a necessity
because ultimately how manytransactions does a consumer do
and how many does a loan officeror a real estate agent do?
(09:44):
Like we're assuming that theconsumer knows things that they
don't, right?It's the curse of knowledge.
I mean, as a marketer, I startedtalking about stuff like pixels
and offers and unique valuepropositions and things like that.
And people are like, the heck areyou talking about?
I need to understand that.
Sometimes we got to take that
third, fourth, fifth levellanguage and stop using words like
DTI, LTV, and you know, crazystuff like that, you know, loan
(10:06):
officers like to throw around likeas if everybody knows what that
means.
I also think by using that
language, people feel somewhatbelittled, because like, okay,
this guy's using words that Idon't understand.
So he's talking okay, this me.
I don't know.
I think it's common.
I it's common.
I think too, is even when you talkto the consumer, it's like, you
ask them if they have anyquestions, they don't even know
the questions.
Right.
you Yeah.
Yeah, I even exactly.
have heard And, people know, saystuff like, the best first
(10:27):
question is how can I help you?what if they don't know?
Like, yeah, like, Like, they don'tknow what you I want a I guess is
the question they're going to ask,do.
mortgage, but you already knowthat if you're on a call with I I
don't know.
them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
think, To that's not a great eventhough supposedly some gurus say
that's a good question, me,question, but Hey, you know what?
Who am I to say?What I want to sort of move over
(10:48):
to is I know you do a lot withsocial media.
You know, so talk a little bitabout that.
What are you doing with socialmedia?
Because I know you're attractingconsumers to you, I'm assuming
you're probably attracting realestate agents to you.
What are those like?You know, I think it's evolved
every month, every year.
I started out on LinkedIn 10 years
ago.
And then I always said I would
(11:09):
never be that girl on Instagram orTikTok doing these weird reels.
And yet, that's what was gettingme attention was education and
entertainment, right together.
And what I found was, you know,
Instagram and TikTok are where alot of people aren't going to get
information right forward intothat a bit more the last couple of
years and essentially what I do isI don't just post about what I do
for a living I'm more than just mycareer if people know me they know
that I have four pitbulls theyknow that I have a lake home they
know that I live in Fargo NorthDakota because I always talk about
the weather so I change up what Ipost about right Luke like I'll
(11:30):
talk, because I always talk aboutthe weather.
So I change up what I post about,right, Luke, like, I'll talk about
mortgage, I'll talk about theweather and dogs and the lake,
because everybody, you always hearyou work with who you know, like
and trust.
And it's true.
And so individuals forget that ifyou post about your kids soccer
game, or the fact that you'redoing 75 hard, you are going to
attract people that are attractedto what you're posting about.
(11:52):
And that can lead to other thingslike business.
And so I really focus on postingand sharing things about who Kayla
is as a human.
That's one of the things that I've
found a lot of success with.
I can't tell you look how many
times I've posted about my dogsand a realtor that has a similar
dog has connected with me and nowwe're best friends and they don't
(12:14):
live around where I live but yetwe can be a resource for each
other and then the other partabout social that I really am
passionate about is justengagement because we get caught
up in the what should I post andoh I forgot I didn't look great
today so I didn't post a video.
Right.
Don't forget about just engagingand supporting other people's
posts and commenting, liking andsharing, but commenting with
actual, like, you know, I knowauthenticity gets thrown around
loosely, but being authentic withsupporting people.
And it's amazing what happens whenyou start to pour into others.
(12:37):
You've maybe noticed that too, isyou'll pour into someone because
you want to help.
And then the next thing you know,
they're pouring into you.
And that engagement piece is just
forgotten.
And I think it's so important.
And it's been pivotal for mybusiness.
I will echo that because I've evenbeen known to do that in the past.
Sometimes when you don't feel likedoing social media, like throw up
(12:59):
a post real quick and get out.
But interestingly enough, you'll
see that your engagement on yourown posts will go way down if
you're not engaging on otherpeople's posts for a couple of
reasons.
One, the algorithm is going to,
you know, support the person thatis engaging with other people's
content.
So, you know, the likelihood of if
you're engaging with theircontent, they're going to see more
of your content.
(13:19):
But on the other side is also the
law of reciprocation, right?Law of reciprocity, where people
are like, man, this person keepscommenting these cool things on my
posts.
Like, let's go check out what
they're doing.
Oh, cool.
They're doing some cool thingstoo.
Let me do the same thing.
And all of a sudden you have this
sort of like, whatever parasocialrelationship type thing where
(13:41):
like, you kind of have this onlinerelationship, you've talked with
people and all of a sudden it'slike, cool.
Like I actually know this person.
I know what they like.
I know what they care about, allthat kind of stuff.
But I will say, LinkedIn for me isso hard because I just feel like
it's not authentic.
And I feel like it's a bunch of
people just rolling around intheir suits, all like, oh, yeah,
(14:02):
that was a fantastic post.
And you're like, bro, is anybody
not just sitting around here brownnosing on this platform?
So it's been hard for me.
I'm trying to get into LinkedIn.
I realized part of my problem is Idon't like scrolling through
LinkedIn, whereas on Facebook andInstagram, things like that, it's
much more natural.
Yes.
For me over the years to do that.
So it's like just getting used to
scrolling through LinkedIn,commenting, liking, doing things
like that.
And then that starts to build up.
(14:22):
Because funny, I was talking to aguy that does a lot with LinkedIn.
He said, honestly, biggest thingthat I found, engage with the
people that are posting, engagewith the people that are
consistent, engage with their Andstuff.
all of a they're sudden, going tostart going to your All stuff.
of a the sudden, people that arein the engage with the people that
are consistent, engage with theirAnd stuff.
all of a sudden, they're gonnastart to go into your stuff.
All of a the people that are inthe comments, sudden, they're
gonna see your comments that arethoughtful.
(14:43):
They're gonna go to your stuff.
Like that all starts to build that
reciprocity.
I'm cool.
like, okay, So basically the samething I do on Facebook, apply to
just spend some time on it.
LinkedIn, So and it's crazy how
just one connection, Yeah, nomatter where it comes from, I
always call it the six degrees ofKevin Bacon.
Have you ever heard of that?It's like, you can name been on
there with that person or thatperson, one of my best referral
sources I met on LinkedIn fiveyears they ago, don't even live
(15:05):
around here.
And their whole team refers to me.
And I'm like, gosh, had I not beenon LinkedIn posting about things,
where would I be today?So you just never know where it
can it can go.
Yeah, absolutely.
And well, you talked aboutengagement, right?
I mean, the thing that a lot of ustalk about is posting ghost,
right?So many times we think that the
thing that's going to get usbusiness is the posting.
And a lot of times, that's notwhere the relationships really are
built.
It's built in one on the comments
first, before you get all creepyand get into people's DMS.
But then, you know, talking topeople via messenger.
And again, partially, that's thealgorithm.
Partially, that's just the factthat we're really just being
(15:26):
social on a social network, right?Yeah, we're being rewarded by
being social on the network, whichis cool.
What do you suggest from thatperspective?
Right?I mean, because to me, social
media is hard, because literallybuilt to try to keep us on it.
So how do you set that sort ofboundaries around usage?
And you know, because it caneasily go from business to crap, I
just spent two hours justmindlessly scrolling and I
probably should have been doingsomething.
(16:09):
Man, I think I'm still working onthat, Luke.
I really think I am.
It's hard because you find
yourself like, I'll go scroll tosupport, right?
Go scroll to engage.
I'm not necessarily posting,
obviously.
I So I'll scroll to go see what
individuals are doing.
It's so easy to get interrupted.
It's so easy.
So what I found that has worked
for me is I easy.
up early in the morning and I'll
do my devotionals, you know, andhave that time before the rest of
the world is up, but that's whenI'll engage.
I'll almost get it out of the way.
And that's when I'll take the time
because I have my pre-workout orcoffee and then I'll go work out.
(16:30):
Oh, I have to work out by X time.
So for me, that's kind of a little
hack that I've used is I do itwhen I know, you know, like you're
sipping a drink, you've got 10minutes and then you're capped.
Otherwise I start to do this inthe evening and I have nothing on
my calendar after 8 PM.
It is easy to just go down the
rabbit hole and also compareyourself and think I'm not doing
enough or look at this post, andthen it gets to be late at night,
(16:53):
and it can truly consume you.
So I would say find a time where
you know that, you know, maybe ifyou're a realtor show up, you
know, 20 minutes early to yourappointment, or if you're a
lender, just take that time.
But it's easier said than done.
Let me tell you.
why I asked because, you know,
selfishly, I'm like, Oh, maybeshe's got good boundaries.
But yeah, it is hard becausesocial media, while it has its
obvious positives from a businessperspective, it also has its
(17:15):
obvious negatives from thatperspective as well.
And I have burnt out on socialmedia many times over the years.
Like, you know, one, because youhave to be so consistent in order
to...
There's one reason I started a
YouTube channel, to be honest,within the last couple of months
was because I was like, all right,I don't know how much value I've
put on social media and it's gone.
It's gone never to be seen again.
(17:36):
Whereas like YouTube, we cancontinue to, so I'm like, I'm
going in on something that's alittle bit more evergreen that I
could put my efforts into, butalso be able to use as an asset
for future.
But yeah, social media can have
that dark side of it, which islike one, we're seeing ads all day
long.
So we're being sold to all day
long.
In addition to that, if you're
following a bunch of other salesand marketing type people, you're
(17:57):
getting ads from them and you'regetting their type of stuff.
And you're constantly being soldto all day long.
You're constantly also being soldthis idea that everybody's life is
perfect, right?So I tend to talk a lot about
things that are a little bit moreraw, not a lot, but I do every
once in a while, I'll talk aboutthings that are more raw because I
get comments all the time andmessages all the time.
People saying like, man, thank youfor sharing.
(18:18):
That's like, you know, everybodyelse just kind of just shares
their highlights.
And I'm like, I get it.
I know it sucks.
But sometimes it's like, I do it
for the purpose of...
If this helps someone else realize
that other people are strugglingand other people have gone through
similar things, it's worth it.
Just like the podcast, right?
It's like, I think this podcast isso valuable.
I'm like, if I can help one or twoor three people, that's what
(18:39):
matters.
I don't have to help millions of
people.
I mean, one person, two people,
three people, like that's whatmatters.
I don't have to help millions ofpeople.
I mean, one person, two people,three people.
So seeing it from thatperspective, but you can go down
that dark sort of comparisonrabbit hole of like, Oh, this
person, man, they're crushing it.
They're making so much money.
We don't know that maybe theysuck.
Maybe we go look at the productionand they're closing, you know, a
loan a month, right?Like they're trying to do the same
thing you are like, we don't knowthat.
Yeah.
It's one of those It's one of
(19:00):
those things where people areafraid you are to like, be we
don't know that.
Yeah.
So, you know, it's one of thosethings where people are afraid to
be raw or more raw because like,well, people think, well, what
attracts humans is other humans.
And when you see someone having
faults, I don't know about you,but I have a lot of faults.
So it's almost like, oh, I'm notalone.
And you don't even know how manypeople you can impact by just
being yourself.
It's just, it's easier said than
done though, Luke.
It's like, oh, I've got clients
(19:21):
following me.
Do I really want to put this out
there.
And I think if it's coming from
your heart, I mean, if you'rereally focused on the value add,
you're not going to care how youlook.
And you're not going to care beingopen because oh, The caveat to
this is do not use social media asyour personal diary.
No one wants to see your drama dayin and day out every single day.
But, you know, the way I saytalking about is like, use it as a
way to reflect and tell storiesabout things that may have
happened to you.
(19:41):
The other thing I learned too, was
I was working with a mindset coachyears back.
And I was like, man, I feel kindof like inauthentic, not talking
about things I'm going through.
And, and they were like, you don't
need to talk about the thingsyou're going through in the
moment.
You can tell lessons from six
months, 12 months back when you'reready to talk about the lessons.
And so you don't have to be like,Oh man, today I lost a loan.
And I I'm just you know, what abad day.
And don't be that person.
Because that's the person that's
bringing a bunch of negativity.
But there's also on the other side
(20:01):
of it is like being true to whoyou are like, Hey, I had this
problem.
I've been talking about ADHD a lot
recently, because I didn't know Ihad ADHD until like a year ago.
I had ops manager that was like,Luke, you need to get tested.
I'm like, What are you talkingabout?
She's like, you have ADHD.
So no, I don't.
I have ADHD.
So I've been talking a lot about
like some of the things that comealong with having ADHD, you know,
the substance abuse, things likethat.
And it's like, I just talk aboutit.
People like, man, it's sorelatable and things like that.
(20:24):
And it's like, this sucks.
But same time, might as well tell
the lessons.
Well, an ADHD combined with social
media.
I mean, that is, yeah, we tell
you, from experience, it's hard.
And I think, you know, you said
it, it's like, once you're throughit, it's easier to talk about once
you're in it, you're getting theseemotions, because we've all been
through things in our lives.
And we look back and you're like,
Oh, I shouldn't have maybe talkedabout that.
I really it was so fresh.
(20:44):
So I love that you said that,
like, maybe once you're throughit, like, then you're ready to go
on it.
in I think it's important because
i mean again like we don't want touse it as a diary we want to use
it as a way to showcase thelessons that are learned and i'm a
big believer in failures andthings like that teaches us and my
executive coach verbalized thisreally well for me probably a
couple weeks ago and he said hesaid you know what like success is
not a very good teacher because imean think about like anybody who
started in 2020, I mean, how manypeople thought they were the best
(21:06):
loan officer ever in 2020 and 21?That was just right place in the
That time, right?What if they started in 2022,
right?Wrong place at the wrong time.
You know what I mean?Like, so failure is actually a
better teacher than successesbecause again, success could be,
you know, there's circumstancesthat could actually have impacted
the fact that you won, right?Like, you know, selling little
widgets online, like read a bookabout a guy who during the Trump
period, he was doing like asurvival gear type stuff and they
were just crushing it, right?Just crushing it.
And then, you know, as sort of thestuff shifted, like all of a
(21:28):
sudden he found himself likebleeding money every single month
and realizing that, okay, well nowthis sort sort of, there's the
shift in the market.
And it's like, that is the true
lessons is learning, okay, well,how do I survive these times?
And so that's why I honestlybelieve that the last couple of
years has been a perfectopportunity for the right people
to step up and learn, all right,well, how do I structure my
(21:48):
business so that it's not assusceptible to market changes like
this?What are the systems I got to
implement?How do I improve my customer
journey?How do I improve my systems on
conversion, right?You know, instead of having five
realtors, maybe I need 35realtors.
How do I create systems to getthose 35 realtors, right?
There's a lot of things there thatneeded to change in order for you
to survive this And I think a lotof individuals may have given up.
I think, yeah, take the time off.
You know, a lot of people are so
(22:09):
busy in 2020, 21 that they justneed a break.
But at the end of the day, I hopethat those individuals were also
focusing on their systems and howthey could become better because
there was a slow time.
And, and I think now it's still
slow for many, like take this timeto really look into how you're
doing things.
One of my biggest things that I
looked at was my conversion and Ican't control interest rates or
inventory, but I looked and I hadall of these approved people and
(22:32):
I'm like, well, I did I But mynumbers maybe weren't as high
because I couldn't convert.
Why wasn't I converting?
Was I following up?Was I following up with the real
estate agent?Was I giving value to the clients
or did I completely just let themgo?
But in reality, I think it wasinventory and rates.
So now I'm like, okay, how do Istay in front of these people?
How do I continue to pour intothem and let them know I'm here?
(22:55):
And so I think if you're a loanofficer, you should really be
taking this time if it's slowerand looking into your systems
because now's the time becauseyou've got the time.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you talk about conversion.
You're right.
I mean, some of those things you
can't control.
So what can you control?
Maybe my conversion right now iswhatever 5%.
So how many more people do I haveto talk to in order to get the
numbers that I want to get to?Like, that's the biggest thing is
(23:16):
like, you know, maybe you can'treally control so much to converge
because you really can't, right?I mean, you know, in sales and
just in life in general, there'sthis concept of leading versus
lagging indicators.
And so many times we focus on the
lagging indicators, which are kindof the results, the outcomes, the
goals, the things that we want toaccomplish.
But like, you can't actually likeforce someone to buy, right?
I to?I mean, can persuade, you can have
influence.
You can't actually like force
(23:36):
someone to do something.
What you can do is you can, all
right, I'm going to just talk to10 people every day.
I'm not going to freaking stopworking until I talk to 10 people.
you I, know, whatever it is,right?
Like whatever your metrics are.
All right.
I'm going to get at least X amountof applications a week.
Well, you can't really control Xamount of applications, but you
know, Hey, for every a hundredpeople I talk to, I get 10
(23:57):
applications for every 10 people Iget applications from, I get five
pre-approvals from every fivepre-approvals.
I got to get three closing.
So I got to talk to a hundred
people a week.
Yeah.
Yeah.
First engineer that if this is
your goal, like if you're notbreaking down your numbers as a
loan officer or your pre-calls oryour conversion rates, that's
where you're missing.
If you can get dialed in on that,
(24:18):
that is like your acres ofdiamonds in my opinion.
Yeah.
Well, and recommendation for
everybody who is listening as wellis if you can record some sales
calls and listen to them, mostlikely you're going to realize how
bad you are, how much you suck atsales.
Not that you're not a good personand all that kind of stuff.
But listening to your calls is oneof the best ways to realize the
amount of ways that you're missingout on opportunities, right?
(24:38):
When you slow things down and youcan listen to it in retrospect,
like, oh, man, I should have saidthis here.
You know what?I should have probed a little
deeper here.
I should have asked a better
question here.
Oh, man, this was not an
objection.
This was just a clarifying
question, right?And little things like that really
sort of increase the quality ofthe conversations.
And also there's a concept that Ilearned a while back from a mentor
called regression to the mean,right?
So like you go to a training, youlearn this, you know, hey, here's
(24:59):
the script.
We're going to do this script.
And all of a sudden, great.
And then time passes.
And all of a sudden you kind of goback to what you were used to.
And so without reviewing calls anddoing things like that, you're
just going to continue to regressto the mean.
And so part of growth is stayingon top of that training and
continue to grow over time.
As from that perspective, like, do
you spend time, you know, learningnew things?
What's kind of that look like fromyour perspective from a growth
(25:20):
trajectory?Yeah.
So I am always that type that Idon't know if it's a sickness or a
problem where I'm just want moreinformation, more information.
One of the struggles is how do youretain that?
And how do you practice that?And so for me, this is not a
selling thing.
And I actually have it right here.
Have you heard of the remarkable?Okay.
I just using this because what'shappening, Lucas, I had all these
ideas and I was learning things.
I'm listening to podcasts.
I'm having conversations withsomeone like you.
And I'm like, I'm taking notes.
Like I'm finding that I have
things everywhere and I have asystem in less.
(25:41):
It's like when you go to the gymand don't have a plan for the
weights and the reps.
So I just got the remarkable two
days ago.
I'm kid you not.
And I'm like, I need somethingwhere I can have a safe place to
hold things that I can pull it upon my phone.
One of the things that I'm kind ofleaning into is anytime that I
hear I something that I don'tknow, like if you ever hear a word
(26:02):
you don't know, or a topic thatyou're not sure of, or maybe in
mortgage, it's how does thatactually work?
You know, how does inflationreally impact rates?
You know, I will write it down andI will then look it up or have
like a list.
So for me, it's having an
organized system first andforemost.
And then I try to take at least acouple of times a week to hop on a
webinar or every morning when Iget ready for work or I drive, I
listen to a podcast.
One that's like entertaining or
(26:23):
helpful, like the skinnyconfidential about, you know,
health and wellness and tips likethat.
But then I'll listen to some typeof podcast that has to do with
investing or my job, anythingthat's going to create better
version or intelligent version ofme.
And then I will also take notes onthat.
So I'm always, always listening topodcasts.
But my one downfall that I have isthe scrolling at night is I've got
my book by my bed.
But I need to shut that down.
Because it's amazing what littleprogress like 10 pages a day can
(26:44):
do.
So yeah, it's nuts.
But you just have to do it.
Just take the 20 minutes during
the 10 patients.
But now I have something that I've
got my checklist that's holding meaccountable because it's so easy
to just throw this stuff aroundand then be like, what did I
learn?And how am I implementing So...
Right, right.
Yeah.
The Remarkable is a littleexpensive, but it is pretty cool
to be able to have a digitalversion and works really nice.
I mean, I've had it for a whileand And I'll be honest, I haven't
(27:08):
used it as consistently as Ishould.
But over the last whatever couplemonths, I've been really trying to
be consistent.
And as an ADHD person, I tend to
talk over people.
So my executive coach is like,
Luke, anytime that you're tryingto talk over someone, I'm good on
the podcast.
But in other scenarios, I get
excited, I just start talking.
And so he says, write it down.
(27:29):
I also have a problem with, I'm alittle, I want to call it
combative.
I have a very strong opinion about
things and not everybody likes todebate.
So even with my team, you know,he's like, you need to write
things down because like, thinkabout how people feel when you
kind of shut them down, eventhough you don't know you're
shutting them down.
I mean, so I had to learn like,
all right, you literally railroadpeople without knowing it.
(27:50):
And so one of the things I'm doingis in calls, I just write notes,
put myself on mute, write notes,and then I can say it later.
I can share it in a different waywhere I'm not like overriding
them.
So little things like that to sort
of help has been something I'vebeen using Remarkable for.
But I like the whole list idea,something that's been hard with
ADHD to just stick to your system,to be honest.
(28:12):
way Or you're like, oh, there's 75checklists I can download.
I don't know which checklist.
We need to decide because
indecision is a We need to So Iagree.
Awesome.
So I like to leave some sort of
strategy tactic.
If you were, let's say you were
getting started again today, or ifyou're giving advice to a loan
officer in this market, what islike one or two things that they
(28:34):
could do today to go out there andget business, to get more
exposure, you know, to help themgrow?
You know, I think there's a couplethings that come to mind.
One is more on just mortgagelending.
One is involving social media.
I think that, you know, you and I
spoke about, it's so easy toassume that a borrower even knows
how to complete an application.
(28:54):
Right.
So what I have done and what hashelped me is any questions that
I've gotten from clients, I willtake note of that.
And then I have a spreadsheetwhere I ask clients questions.
And I'll basically evolve thisspreadsheet to ask questions and
then say, you know, hey, did youknow that, you know, your first
payment is not due when you getyour mortgage because maybe
they're in a lease?You know, just these little things
(29:16):
that people say, oh, I didn't knowthat.
That is your bread and butter.
The things that people don't know,
take note, take note.
And then take that and create
social media content with itbecause it's so easy to just
assume people know.
But that is also just gold when it
comes to your ability to post, goand create a 20 second video.
When we say VOE, what does thatmean?
When we say VA and FHA, what doesthis mean?
You've got tons of content thatyou can use.
(29:37):
So that would be my tip is focuson those questions that you're
getting.
Or when people say, I didn't know
that I had no idea.
That is your way to have those
calls and be better at those callsand create content that really
client can digest and help themand add value.
And I love that.
That's something that we hear all
the time is like, what do I post?I'm like, you literally just said
(29:57):
you post it, content that peopleare asking And that's me.
the easiest type of content topost because you specifically
know, what they're asking you youis, know, what well, do I post?
I'm you like, literally just saidYou post it.
content that people are asking.
I that's mean, the easiest type of
content to post because you knowspecifically what they're asking
you is, you know, again, what'sLTV?
What's DTI?What credit score do I need to
qualify for this?Like little things like that.
I mean, you know, people thinkthey need 20% down, right?
(30:17):
That's like the main pervasivemyth, I would think, is the 20%
down.
And, you know, it's probably been
overdone, but I think you canalways put your own spin on things
like that or shift the way or talkabout a specific program, right?
Talk about program.
Talk about here we have the
California Dream for All rightnow.
And a lot of people are using thatas a way to get people in the
(30:38):
door.
There's FHA 3.5%.
There's 3% down.
There's down payment assistance
programs.
There's little things like that
that people don't understand,don't get.
I worked for a mortgage companyfor 3 years.
And I finally talked to a loanofficer that was there.
And he's you like, don't I need.
I mean, worked for a mortgage
company for like three years and Ifinally talked to a loan officer
that was there and he's like, youHey, don't need 20% down.
I worked for a mortgage company.
(30:58):
Yes, it was a reverse mortgage
company, but I still worked for amortgage company.
I should have known better.
And so that's what I try to tell
loan officers all the time.
Like the consumer doesn't know.
And when people get mad aboutthings like, well, why did the
consumer not send me the seventhpage of the bank statement?
(31:18):
Because they don't know.
Stop pretending like they know
anything about this transactionthey know nothing about anything
like zero they know nothing stopassuming that anybody knows more
and that's again the curse ofknowledge just stop assuming that
people know anything about themortgage transaction because the
truth is unless they're very verysophisticated which is probably
gonna be like one to five percentof the entire buyer pool like
they're not gonna know anything sobe an advocate be a guide and also
(31:43):
be patient because again, peopledon't understand what they don't
know.
So to me, that's huge.
Any other thoughts, any otheradvice for any loan officers in
this so You know, I keep hearingthis survive until 25 and I keep
hearing that, but I think it'slike, there's no reason why right
now you can't have insane successin 2024.
Just almost, you just have to slowdown sometimes and just stop and
(32:06):
really like take an hour of yourday and just reflect on how you're
doing your business or where areyour deals coming from?
And like we talked aboutconversion, like just maybe take a
day or an hour and just reallylook at your business because
we're so focused on, oh, I'm goingto go to that conference or I'm
going to listen to that podcast orI'm going to go get my next deal.
It's okay to just press pause.
Really just dive into how you've
done and your goals are and reallyhow to like just be better at what
you do.
Yeah, agreed.
100% agreed.
So if anybody wants to learn more
about you, connect with youonline, learn more about, you
(32:26):
know, where you work in, I don'tknow if you're recruiting or
anything like that, but you know,shout out how people can connect
with you.
You can Google me, Kayla Calendar,
calendar with a K. But I'm onInstagram Kayla calendar mortgage.
I'm on LinkedIn.
I'm on TikTok Kayla calendar on
Facebook.
I'm on all the things.
So essentially, I just say if youcan go to Google and you can spell
calendar K-A-L-L-A-N-D-E-R, youwill find me and you can connect
with me.
Awesome.
That's perfect for For someonethat loves social media, dropping
all the social medias is theperfect thing to do.
(32:48):
So Thank you so much.
awesome.
And for like me, my big takeawaysfrom today was really, I mean,
coming down to if you are usingsocial media, it comes down to
consistency, but it comes down toreally just engaging with people
and making social media social.
And what I liked about what you
talked about is something I talkabout a lot too, is so many people
like to think, or maybe they don'tlike to think, but they think that
what's going to get them success,what's going to get them business
is posting about business.
Generally, that's the stuff that's
going to get the least engagement.
And you know, if that's all you
(33:09):
post, you're actually probablygonna get less business by only
posting business than you would ifyou posted maybe 10% to 20 to 30%
business.
And the rest of it is who you are
as a person.
So that's what I've learned over
the years.
I know there may be some other
coaches out there, but you got toeducate your people.
And I'm like, to be honest, no onewants to really like only read
mortgage education, right?Like cool.
Like every once in a while, yes,you should be sprinkling in some
(33:31):
education because you should be athought leader.
But you know, the truth is peoplewant to see your dogs.
They want to see your family.
They want to see, you know, the
lake house, they want to seewhatever the the lake house they
want to see whatever the soccergame all this stuff they want to
see that because that's whatthey're attracted to and so to me
like that was a big thing that wassomething that i think so many
(33:52):
people miss with social media isunderstanding like just be
yourself and that's what's goingto help you win i know often to
see you said it's thrown around alot i say the same thing
authenticity gets thrown around alot but the truth is be really
authentic don't fake it like don'tpretend like you're something else
because a lot of people do that.
And then you show up in person
like, Oh, this is a fricking jerk.
I don't want to work with this
(34:14):
person.
So be who you are.
Be funny.
If you like funny, sure.
Memes.
If you like memes, be serious.
If you're serious, right?Like just be who you are online.
And I think that'll serve youwell.
So if you are listening to thisand you are looking for some help
on flipping the status quo on realestate go agents, to flip the
status quo.com.
Thank you so much to this and you
are looking for some help onflipping the status quo on real
(34:35):
estate go agents, toflipthestatusquo.com.
Thank you so much for listeningand have a great day.
who you for tuning into the LoansOn Demand podcast on
loansondemandpodcast.com.
podcast, the show where we flipthe real estate status quo on its
head and put loan officers intothe driver's seat.
We give you all the tools,strategies, resources, and mindset
needed to modernize your mortgagebusiness and thrive.
My name is Luke Shankula, akaLongform Luke, and this is the
Loans On Demand podcast.
going on?
Welcome to the Loans On DemandPodcast, the show where we help
(00:25):
loan officers flip the status quoon real estate agents and put loan
officers in the driver's seat.
And I'm excited because today we
have Kayla Callender, or should Isay Callender?
I don't know.
She is the mortgage meteorologist,
big on social media.
And I'm excited because I think
we're going to get some big gemstoday.
So welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for here.
Hey, thanks for having me.
I love that you know how to say my
(00:45):
name, Kayla Callender.
This rolls off the tongue and
people say, is that your realname?
Yes, it is.
So thanks for having me.
I'm excited to just chat and getinto it here.
Awesome.
So I it's important.
It's funny because my buddy, hisname is Skylar, but he gets spells
with an A. He intentionallysometimes will misspell it because
people be like, wait, isn't itspelled like this?
It's like, yeah, names matter andpronouncing people's names and
spelling people's names matter.
(01:05):
So I get it.
It's that big of a deal, but somepeople get pretty offended about
it.
You never know who you might be
slightly offending by not takingit seriously.
So really, I do think it'simportant for people to try to say
people's names correctly and alsoto spell them correctly.
So anyway, let's get into who youare.
Like, give us a little backgroundon who Kayla is.
What has you in this crazyindustry?
What's kept you here, right?Oh, me a hard question right away.
(01:27):
What's kept me here?No one's asked me that.
I'm Kayla Callender.
I'm a mortgage lender in all 50
states.
And I've been in the business,
goodness, since about 2014.
So 10 years.
And one of the things about my jobis, you know, mortgage lending has
evolved significantly from paperapplications to, you know,
electronic to now we are in aspace of virtual social media and
(01:53):
being able to connect with peoplein ways we never have been.
And so for me, I think, you know,you ask what's kept me in this
business.
It's the relationships, a thousand
percent.
And not just relationships with
clients, relationships withrealtors and financial planners
and referral partners.
And then, you know, being that
lender for the family again, yearsto come.
And it's just really cool to bepart of something so significant.
(02:17):
But I also think that one thingthat has got me in here is I am
really good at educating myborrower, really good at putting
content out to educate.
And I think that's something
that's missing in our world ofmortgage, especially in the last
few years, it's transactiontransaction, where now we've had
to really show who we are and howto connect.
And that truly is what's kept mein it, I obviously, the reason I
(02:40):
ask is because, you know, it'spretty easy to know why people are
in the industry in years like 2020and 21.
Yeah, but in years like 22 and 23,when we're getting our butt beat
by the market, and, you know,we're having the worst year since
1995.
Like, you know, that's having the
worst year since 1995.
Like, you know, that's a good
question to Because ask.
ultimately, like, you're in this
industry, because you'repassionate, and you stay in this
(03:01):
industry, because you actually,you know, love what you're doing,
right?Yeah, the money's great.
And you know, there's good years,but obviously, years when most of
the market is down 40, 50, 60%.
It's not as much of a no brainer
to be in the mortgage industry.
So understanding sort of the
background and makes you sort ofpassionate about this industry is,
I think, important to understand.
Because again, I think people that
come into the industry just forthe money, they're going to dip
out of the industry because theydon't have the money.
(03:23):
And for the people that have thestaying power to stay through
these hard times are the ones thatI think get rewarded on the other
side of this sort of turnaround.
Because I do think in the next, I
don't know, is it six months?Is it 18 months?
I don't know, there's gonna be anice little boom of business,
which is going to be good for thepeople that were able to stick
around.
have will be.
And it's been very telling thelast year or so, like, who's
really great at their job, andwho's the client, because it's
(03:45):
really easy to just take apps andlock loans.
And now you need to get granular.
And you need to be able to
articulate to your client, And nowyou need to get granular and you
need to be able to articulate toyour client what it takes to get a
mortgage.
And to also, Luke, navigate this
crazy, you know, rate environment,low inventory.
You almost need someone that'sgoing to empathize with you as you
go through such a big changeduring such a difficult market.
Yeah, 100%.
(04:06):
That's usually something we talk
to people about, too, is like somany people try to, you know, hide
behind this idea that they're justeducators.
And I'm like, okay, cool.
You're an educator, you're an
advisor, you're also asalesperson, and you know, better
a lot of times than the consumerdoes.
But I do think in this market,especially it's educating them on,
okay, you know what, let's look athistorically, how was the market
performed?I mean, other than like, let's say
2007, eight, nine, or whateverthat period was, historically,
it's always been a pretty goodtime to buy a home, right?
(04:29):
I mean, if you can afford it, ifyou can afford the down payment,
if you can afford the monthlypayments, if you can afford it,
like buy it also, you know,understanding their situation.
And I talk about this all thetime.
But one of the things I say is theonline application is one of the
worst things to happen in themortgage industry.
And the reason I say that is notbecause of the app itself, but
because most people got lazy anddidn't do the work that you're
(04:49):
talking about and understandingthe situation.
Hey, I'm a guide.
I'm an educator.
I'm going to show you what thislooks like, preparing you for the
future.
So talk a little bit about that.
How do you approach each of yourclients from that perspective,
right?From the education, from all of
that stuff.
So You know, I love what you just
said, because I just got off acall with a client and I knew that
they were approved with anotherlender.
And I said, what was yourexperience like?
And she's like, well, my firsttime buying a house.
(05:10):
So, I like, And I'm like, OK, likeand I'll start to ask them because
I always have a discovery call.
I try to have the call even before
they apply.
I want to get to know what your
fears.
Why are you buying?
You know, what is the reason forthis?
And how many dogs do you have?And how old are your kids?
And there's so much going on whenyou think about know That in order
for me to really help somebody andunderstand what they need, you
(05:31):
need to have that discovery call,you need to have that hopes and
dreams and wishes and fears call.
And so I always start with that.
And then I get an application.
Then I know when I get the data, I
know exactly, okay, yeah, I knowthey were going to pay that off
or, oh, they said they were goingto have a job at, you know,
they're a doctor and they'regetting a new job.
I know that that's coming.
(05:51):
So it allows me to not all of a
sudden be creating the narrativein my head because I hadn't had
the conversation.
So I'm always having a
conversation, always, always.
And from there, I get an
application.
But as I always tell people, they
say, well, you know, we get thequestion, what's the right program
do I qualify for?I always say to my clients, I say,
you know, when you go to thedoctor, you don't just say, hey,
(06:11):
doc, not feeling good.
Can you give me that medicine?
That doesn't happen.
So I say, I need to do my analysis
and my x-rays and my blood workbefore I can then prescribe you
and diagnose you.
Because essentially prescription
without diagnosis is malpractice.
So when I say that, it kind of
clicks for them.
They're like, that's why Kayla's
asking me all these questions.
And what's really cool, Luke, is
when I ask all these questions,they say, no one's ever asked me
(06:34):
that.
Right.
That's great.
So in short, I have that call.
I have that discussion.
We get an app, we do all the
income and we really dive in.
And then we have another call and
we talk about, okay, I know yousaid you were comfortable with a
$4,000 payment.
Here's what we can approve you
for.
You know, we start to kind of then
connect the dots.
And I think just that piece of
(06:56):
having that call up front makessuch a difference in how people
people are like, okay, cool.
Like I'm not a salesperson.
That's because you have a wrongdefinition of what sales is.
Sales is ultimately leadership.
And it's like, Hey, you know what?
I'm not going to push something onyou that you shouldn't be buying.
Right.
If I truly believe like, and I
told me this all the time, I'mlike, Hey, guess what?
(07:16):
Rocket mortgage.
Like, do you think they're going
to care?Like they're going to put two
points on there.
They're going to do anything they
have to, to get that person toapply, to get them in process
because they understand thatobject and motion stay in motion.
And so they want to get thatperson to apply, to get them in
(07:39):
process, because they understandthat object and motion stay in
motion.
And so they want to get them into
process.
And so we're so scared to ask and
to get people to take that nextstep.
And it's like, why?Like, okay, I'm going to
over-educate someone, but I'm notgoing to ask for the business.
They're just going to go to thenext person who is going to ask,
right?And so I think a mix of the two
(08:00):
things.
But man, the quote that you said,
I say that quote all the time,prescription without diagnosis is
malpractice, because ultimatelythat is what you're doing.
And that is what actually sellspeople.
What sales is, is the discoveryprocess, is understanding their
pain points.
And so many people think that,
again, that the thing that sellspeople is the pitch, the rate, the
program, the this, the that.
If we don't understand what their
goals are, we are not being afiduciary.
I'm not saying necessarily loanofficers have that necessarily,
but they should.
We're not because we're not
understanding like, okay, so we'regonna put them in a 30 year fixed.
What if they plan on selling intwo years?
You didn't have that conversation.
(08:20):
So you don't know you're just
cookie cutter in them intosomething that maybe is not the
best thing for them.
Right?
So it's like, I get it ratematters to a certain extent.
But that's just because consumershave been taught to care about
rate, not because they actuallycare about rate.
Because if you ask most people,probably don't even know what the
rate is, right?I mean, maybe in the last couple
of years they do because everybodyloves to brag about their 2.75.
(08:41):
But maybe in normal markets,people aren't bragging about their
rates all the time.
And so, man, I love that you're
talking about that.
And that's part of the process
because I think so many loanofficers are missing out because
you talked about transactions.
They're so transactional.
And what I think you're doingofficers are missing out because
you talked about transactions.
They're so transactional.
And what I think you're doing isyou're probably capturing a
considerable amount of thefollow-ups, right?
The future transaction.
You've been in the industry for 10
years, so maybe you have some datato prove that.
(09:03):
Yeah.
And I think what I'm trying to do
is, you know, you had saidsomething that I'm finding is so
common is the client doesn't evenknow what to ask besides what's
right.
And so if we can get in front of
people quicker or educate ourreferral partners, like when you
tell them to go shop, don't justsay shop or rate, say, find out
how, you know, each lender thatyou refer to, if you need to send
your three, send your three, buttell them to shop, you know, not
(09:24):
just the rate, but what are theirfees?
What are their programs?Are they accessible?
Are they asking you questions?Are you getting along with them?
Do you have a vibe with them?And all people know what to ask is
what's the rate.
So we need to educate and educate
our partners as well.
A hundred percent.
I agree.
I mean, and let's not even get
into the three referrals thing,but I think that's a necessity
because ultimately how manytransactions does a consumer do
and how many does a loan officeror a real estate agent do?
(09:44):
Like we're assuming that theconsumer knows things that they
don't, right?It's the curse of knowledge.
I mean, as a marketer, I startedtalking about stuff like pixels
and offers and unique valuepropositions and things like that.
And people are like, the heck areyou talking about?
I need to understand that.
Sometimes we got to take that
third, fourth, fifth levellanguage and stop using words like
DTI, LTV, and you know, crazystuff like that, you know, loan
(10:06):
officers like to throw around likeas if everybody knows what that
means.
I also think by using that
language, people feel somewhatbelittled, because like, okay,
this guy's using words that Idon't understand.
So he's talking okay, this me.
I don't know.
I think it's common.
I it's common.
I think too, is even when you talkto the consumer, it's like, you
ask them if they have anyquestions, they don't even know
the questions.
Right.
you Yeah.
Yeah, I even exactly.
have heard And, people know, saystuff like, the best first
(10:27):
question is how can I help you?what if they don't know?
Like, yeah, like, Like, they don'tknow what you I want a I guess is
the question they're going to ask,do.
mortgage, but you already knowthat if you're on a call with I I
don't know.
them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
think, To that's not a great eventhough supposedly some gurus say
that's a good question, me,question, but Hey, you know what?
Who am I to say?What I want to sort of move over
(10:48):
to is I know you do a lot withsocial media.
You know, so talk a little bitabout that.
What are you doing with socialmedia?
Because I know you're attractingconsumers to you, I'm assuming
you're probably attracting realestate agents to you.
What are those like?You know, I think it's evolved
every month, every year.
I started out on LinkedIn 10 years
ago.
And then I always said I would
(11:09):
never be that girl on Instagram orTikTok doing these weird reels.
And yet, that's what was gettingme attention was education and
entertainment, right together.
And what I found was, you know,
Instagram and TikTok are where alot of people aren't going to get
information right forward intothat a bit more the last couple of
years and essentially what I do isI don't just post about what I do
for a living I'm more than just mycareer if people know me they know
that I have four pitbulls theyknow that I have a lake home they
know that I live in Fargo NorthDakota because I always talk about
the weather so I change up what Ipost about right Luke like I'll
(11:30):
talk, because I always talk aboutthe weather.
So I change up what I post about,right, Luke, like, I'll talk about
mortgage, I'll talk about theweather and dogs and the lake,
because everybody, you always hearyou work with who you know, like
and trust.
And it's true.
And so individuals forget that ifyou post about your kids soccer
game, or the fact that you'redoing 75 hard, you are going to
attract people that are attractedto what you're posting about.
(11:52):
And that can lead to other thingslike business.
And so I really focus on postingand sharing things about who Kayla
is as a human.
That's one of the things that I've
found a lot of success with.
I can't tell you look how many
times I've posted about my dogsand a realtor that has a similar
dog has connected with me and nowwe're best friends and they don't
(12:14):
live around where I live but yetwe can be a resource for each
other and then the other partabout social that I really am
passionate about is justengagement because we get caught
up in the what should I post andoh I forgot I didn't look great
today so I didn't post a video.
Right.
Don't forget about just engagingand supporting other people's
posts and commenting, liking andsharing, but commenting with
actual, like, you know, I knowauthenticity gets thrown around
loosely, but being authentic withsupporting people.
And it's amazing what happens whenyou start to pour into others.
(12:37):
You've maybe noticed that too, isyou'll pour into someone because
you want to help.
And then the next thing you know,
they're pouring into you.
And that engagement piece is just
forgotten.
And I think it's so important.
And it's been pivotal for mybusiness.
I will echo that because I've evenbeen known to do that in the past.
Sometimes when you don't feel likedoing social media, like throw up
(12:59):
a post real quick and get out.
But interestingly enough, you'll
see that your engagement on yourown posts will go way down if
you're not engaging on otherpeople's posts for a couple of
reasons.
One, the algorithm is going to,
you know, support the person thatis engaging with other people's
content.
So, you know, the likelihood of if
you're engaging with theircontent, they're going to see more
of your content.
(13:19):
But on the other side is also the
law of reciprocation, right?Law of reciprocity, where people
are like, man, this person keepscommenting these cool things on my
posts.
Like, let's go check out what
they're doing.
Oh, cool.
They're doing some cool thingstoo.
Let me do the same thing.
And all of a sudden you have this
sort of like, whatever parasocialrelationship type thing where
(13:41):
like, you kind of have this onlinerelationship, you've talked with
people and all of a sudden it'slike, cool.
Like I actually know this person.
I know what they like.
I know what they care about, allthat kind of stuff.
But I will say, LinkedIn for me isso hard because I just feel like
it's not authentic.
And I feel like it's a bunch of
people just rolling around intheir suits, all like, oh, yeah,
(14:02):
that was a fantastic post.
And you're like, bro, is anybody
not just sitting around here brownnosing on this platform?
So it's been hard for me.
I'm trying to get into LinkedIn.
I realized part of my problem is Idon't like scrolling through
LinkedIn, whereas on Facebook andInstagram, things like that, it's
much more natural.
Yes.
For me over the years to do that.
So it's like just getting used to
scrolling through LinkedIn,commenting, liking, doing things
like that.
And then that starts to build up.
(14:22):
Because funny, I was talking to aguy that does a lot with LinkedIn.
He said, honestly, biggest thingthat I found, engage with the
people that are posting, engagewith the people that are
consistent, engage with their Andstuff.
all of a they're sudden, going tostart going to your All stuff.
of a the sudden, people that arein the engage with the people that
are consistent, engage with theirAnd stuff.
all of a sudden, they're gonnastart to go into your stuff.
All of a the people that are inthe comments, sudden, they're
gonna see your comments that arethoughtful.
(14:43):
They're gonna go to your stuff.
Like that all starts to build that
reciprocity.
I'm cool.
like, okay, So basically the samething I do on Facebook, apply to
just spend some time on it.
LinkedIn, So and it's crazy how
just one connection, Yeah, nomatter where it comes from, I
always call it the six degrees ofKevin Bacon.
Have you ever heard of that?It's like, you can name been on
there with that person or thatperson, one of my best referral
sources I met on LinkedIn fiveyears they ago, don't even live
(15:05):
around here.
And their whole team refers to me.
And I'm like, gosh, had I not beenon LinkedIn posting about things,
where would I be today?So you just never know where it
can it can go.
Yeah, absolutely.
And well, you talked aboutengagement, right?
I mean, the thing that a lot of ustalk about is posting ghost,
right?So many times we think that the
thing that's going to get usbusiness is the posting.
And a lot of times, that's notwhere the relationships really are
built.
It's built in one on the comments
first, before you get all creepyand get into people's DMS.
But then, you know, talking topeople via messenger.
And again, partially, that's thealgorithm.
Partially, that's just the factthat we're really just being
(15:26):
social on a social network, right?Yeah, we're being rewarded by
being social on the network, whichis cool.
What do you suggest from thatperspective?
Right?I mean, because to me, social
media is hard, because literallybuilt to try to keep us on it.
So how do you set that sort ofboundaries around usage?
And you know, because it caneasily go from business to crap, I
just spent two hours justmindlessly scrolling and I
probably should have been doingsomething.
(16:09):
Man, I think I'm still working onthat, Luke.
I really think I am.
It's hard because you find
yourself like, I'll go scroll tosupport, right?
Go scroll to engage.
I'm not necessarily posting,
obviously.
I So I'll scroll to go see what
individuals are doing.
It's so easy to get interrupted.
It's so easy.
So what I found that has worked
for me is I easy.
up early in the morning and I'll
do my devotionals, you know, andhave that time before the rest of
the world is up, but that's whenI'll engage.
I'll almost get it out of the way.
And that's when I'll take the time
because I have my pre-workout orcoffee and then I'll go work out.
(16:30):
Oh, I have to work out by X time.
So for me, that's kind of a little
hack that I've used is I do itwhen I know, you know, like you're
sipping a drink, you've got 10minutes and then you're capped.
Otherwise I start to do this inthe evening and I have nothing on
my calendar after 8 PM.
It is easy to just go down the
rabbit hole and also compareyourself and think I'm not doing
enough or look at this post, andthen it gets to be late at night,
(16:53):
and it can truly consume you.
So I would say find a time where
you know that, you know, maybe ifyou're a realtor show up, you
know, 20 minutes early to yourappointment, or if you're a
lender, just take that time.
But it's easier said than done.
Let me tell you.
why I asked because, you know,
selfishly, I'm like, Oh, maybeshe's got good boundaries.
But yeah, it is hard becausesocial media, while it has its
obvious positives from a businessperspective, it also has its
(17:15):
obvious negatives from thatperspective as well.
And I have burnt out on socialmedia many times over the years.
Like, you know, one, because youhave to be so consistent in order
to...
There's one reason I started a
YouTube channel, to be honest,within the last couple of months
was because I was like, all right,I don't know how much value I've
put on social media and it's gone.
It's gone never to be seen again.
(17:36):
Whereas like YouTube, we cancontinue to, so I'm like, I'm
going in on something that's alittle bit more evergreen that I
could put my efforts into, butalso be able to use as an asset
for future.
But yeah, social media can have
that dark side of it, which islike one, we're seeing ads all day
long.
So we're being sold to all day
long.
In addition to that, if you're
following a bunch of other salesand marketing type people, you're
(17:57):
getting ads from them and you'regetting their type of stuff.
And you're constantly being soldto all day long.
You're constantly also being soldthis idea that everybody's life is
perfect, right?So I tend to talk a lot about
things that are a little bit moreraw, not a lot, but I do every
once in a while, I'll talk aboutthings that are more raw because I
get comments all the time andmessages all the time.
People saying like, man, thank youfor sharing.
(18:18):
That's like, you know, everybodyelse just kind of just shares
their highlights.
And I'm like, I get it.
I know it sucks.
But sometimes it's like, I do it
for the purpose of...
If this helps someone else realize
that other people are strugglingand other people have gone through
similar things, it's worth it.
Just like the podcast, right?
It's like, I think this podcast isso valuable.
I'm like, if I can help one or twoor three people, that's what
(18:39):
matters.
I don't have to help millions of
people.
I mean, one person, two people,
three people, like that's whatmatters.
I don't have to help millions ofpeople.
I mean, one person, two people,three people.
So seeing it from thatperspective, but you can go down
that dark sort of comparisonrabbit hole of like, Oh, this
person, man, they're crushing it.
They're making so much money.
We don't know that maybe theysuck.
Maybe we go look at the productionand they're closing, you know, a
loan a month, right?Like they're trying to do the same
thing you are like, we don't knowthat.
Yeah.
It's one of those It's one of
(19:00):
those things where people areafraid you are to like, be we
don't know that.
Yeah.
So, you know, it's one of thosethings where people are afraid to
be raw or more raw because like,well, people think, well, what
attracts humans is other humans.
And when you see someone having
faults, I don't know about you,but I have a lot of faults.
So it's almost like, oh, I'm notalone.
And you don't even know how manypeople you can impact by just
being yourself.
It's just, it's easier said than
done though, Luke.
It's like, oh, I've got clients
(19:21):
following me.
Do I really want to put this out
there.
And I think if it's coming from
your heart, I mean, if you'rereally focused on the value add,
you're not going to care how youlook.
And you're not going to care beingopen because oh, The caveat to
this is do not use social media asyour personal diary.
No one wants to see your drama dayin and day out every single day.
But, you know, the way I saytalking about is like, use it as a
way to reflect and tell storiesabout things that may have
happened to you.
(19:41):
The other thing I learned too, was
I was working with a mindset coachyears back.
And I was like, man, I feel kindof like inauthentic, not talking
about things I'm going through.
And, and they were like, you don't
need to talk about the thingsyou're going through in the
moment.
You can tell lessons from six
months, 12 months back when you'reready to talk about the lessons.
And so you don't have to be like,Oh man, today I lost a loan.
And I I'm just you know, what abad day.
And don't be that person.
Because that's the person that's
bringing a bunch of negativity.
But there's also on the other side
(20:01):
of it is like being true to whoyou are like, Hey, I had this
problem.
I've been talking about ADHD a lot
recently, because I didn't know Ihad ADHD until like a year ago.
I had ops manager that was like,Luke, you need to get tested.
I'm like, What are you talkingabout?
She's like, you have ADHD.
So no, I don't.
I have ADHD.
So I've been talking a lot about
like some of the things that comealong with having ADHD, you know,
the substance abuse, things likethat.
And it's like, I just talk aboutit.
People like, man, it's sorelatable and things like that.
(20:24):
And it's like, this sucks.
But same time, might as well tell
the lessons.
Well, an ADHD combined with social
media.
I mean, that is, yeah, we tell
you, from experience, it's hard.
And I think, you know, you said
it, it's like, once you're throughit, it's easier to talk about once
you're in it, you're getting theseemotions, because we've all been
through things in our lives.
And we look back and you're like,
Oh, I shouldn't have maybe talkedabout that.
I really it was so fresh.
(20:44):
So I love that you said that,
like, maybe once you're throughit, like, then you're ready to go
on it.
in I think it's important because
i mean again like we don't want touse it as a diary we want to use
it as a way to showcase thelessons that are learned and i'm a
big believer in failures andthings like that teaches us and my
executive coach verbalized thisreally well for me probably a
couple weeks ago and he said hesaid you know what like success is
not a very good teacher because imean think about like anybody who
started in 2020, I mean, how manypeople thought they were the best
(21:06):
loan officer ever in 2020 and 21?That was just right place in the
That time, right?What if they started in 2022,
right?Wrong place at the wrong time.
You know what I mean?Like, so failure is actually a
better teacher than successesbecause again, success could be,
you know, there's circumstancesthat could actually have impacted
the fact that you won, right?Like, you know, selling little
widgets online, like read a bookabout a guy who during the Trump
period, he was doing like asurvival gear type stuff and they
were just crushing it, right?Just crushing it.
And then, you know, as sort of thestuff shifted, like all of a
(21:28):
sudden he found himself likebleeding money every single month
and realizing that, okay, well nowthis sort sort of, there's the
shift in the market.
And it's like, that is the true
lessons is learning, okay, well,how do I survive these times?
And so that's why I honestlybelieve that the last couple of
years has been a perfectopportunity for the right people
to step up and learn, all right,well, how do I structure my
(21:48):
business so that it's not assusceptible to market changes like
this?What are the systems I got to
implement?How do I improve my customer
journey?How do I improve my systems on
conversion, right?You know, instead of having five
realtors, maybe I need 35realtors.
How do I create systems to getthose 35 realtors, right?
There's a lot of things there thatneeded to change in order for you
to survive this And I think a lotof individuals may have given up.
I think, yeah, take the time off.
You know, a lot of people are so
(22:09):
busy in 2020, 21 that they justneed a break.
But at the end of the day, I hopethat those individuals were also
focusing on their systems and howthey could become better because
there was a slow time.
And, and I think now it's still
slow for many, like take this timeto really look into how you're
doing things.
One of my biggest things that I
looked at was my conversion and Ican't control interest rates or
inventory, but I looked and I hadall of these approved people and
(22:32):
I'm like, well, I did I But mynumbers maybe weren't as high
because I couldn't convert.
Why wasn't I converting?
Was I following up?Was I following up with the real
estate agent?Was I giving value to the clients
or did I completely just let themgo?
But in reality, I think it wasinventory and rates.
So now I'm like, okay, how do Istay in front of these people?
How do I continue to pour intothem and let them know I'm here?
(22:55):
And so I think if you're a loanofficer, you should really be
taking this time if it's slowerand looking into your systems
because now's the time becauseyou've got the time.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you talk about conversion.
You're right.
I mean, some of those things you
can't control.
So what can you control?
Maybe my conversion right now iswhatever 5%.
So how many more people do I haveto talk to in order to get the
numbers that I want to get to?Like, that's the biggest thing is
(23:16):
like, you know, maybe you can'treally control so much to converge
because you really can't, right?I mean, you know, in sales and
just in life in general, there'sthis concept of leading versus
lagging indicators.
And so many times we focus on the
lagging indicators, which are kindof the results, the outcomes, the
goals, the things that we want toaccomplish.
But like, you can't actually likeforce someone to buy, right?
I to?I mean, can persuade, you can have
influence.
You can't actually like force
(23:36):
someone to do something.
What you can do is you can, all
right, I'm going to just talk to10 people every day.
I'm not going to freaking stopworking until I talk to 10 people.
you I, know, whatever it is,right?
Like whatever your metrics are.
All right.
I'm going to get at least X amountof applications a week.
Well, you can't really control Xamount of applications, but you
know, Hey, for every a hundredpeople I talk to, I get 10
(23:57):
applications for every 10 people Iget applications from, I get five
pre-approvals from every fivepre-approvals.
I got to get three closing.
So I got to talk to a hundred
people a week.
Yeah.
Yeah.
First engineer that if this is
your goal, like if you're notbreaking down your numbers as a
loan officer or your pre-calls oryour conversion rates, that's
where you're missing.
If you can get dialed in on that,
(24:18):
that is like your acres ofdiamonds in my opinion.
Yeah.
Well, and recommendation for
everybody who is listening as wellis if you can record some sales
calls and listen to them, mostlikely you're going to realize how
bad you are, how much you suck atsales.
Not that you're not a good personand all that kind of stuff.
But listening to your calls is oneof the best ways to realize the
amount of ways that you're missingout on opportunities, right?
(24:38):
When you slow things down and youcan listen to it in retrospect,
like, oh, man, I should have saidthis here.
You know what?I should have probed a little
deeper here.
I should have asked a better
question here.
Oh, man, this was not an
objection.
This was just a clarifying
question, right?And little things like that really
sort of increase the quality ofthe conversations.
And also there's a concept that Ilearned a while back from a mentor
called regression to the mean,right?
So like you go to a training, youlearn this, you know, hey, here's
(24:59):
the script.
We're going to do this script.
And all of a sudden, great.
And then time passes.
And all of a sudden you kind of goback to what you were used to.
And so without reviewing calls anddoing things like that, you're
just going to continue to regressto the mean.
And so part of growth is stayingon top of that training and
continue to grow over time.
As from that perspective, like, do
you spend time, you know, learningnew things?
What's kind of that look like fromyour perspective from a growth
(25:20):
trajectory?Yeah.
So I am always that type that Idon't know if it's a sickness or a
problem where I'm just want moreinformation, more information.
One of the struggles is how do youretain that?
And how do you practice that?And so for me, this is not a
selling thing.
And I actually have it right here.
Have you heard of the remarkable?Okay.
I just using this because what'shappening, Lucas, I had all these
ideas and I was learning things.
I'm listening to podcasts.
I'm having conversations withsomeone like you.
And I'm like, I'm taking notes.
Like I'm finding that I have
things everywhere and I have asystem in less.
(25:41):
It's like when you go to the gymand don't have a plan for the
weights and the reps.
So I just got the remarkable two
days ago.
I'm kid you not.
And I'm like, I need somethingwhere I can have a safe place to
hold things that I can pull it upon my phone.
One of the things that I'm kind ofleaning into is anytime that I
hear I something that I don'tknow, like if you ever hear a word
(26:02):
you don't know, or a topic thatyou're not sure of, or maybe in
mortgage, it's how does thatactually work?
You know, how does inflationreally impact rates?
You know, I will write it down andI will then look it up or have
like a list.
So for me, it's having an
organized system first andforemost.
And then I try to take at least acouple of times a week to hop on a
webinar or every morning when Iget ready for work or I drive, I
listen to a podcast.
One that's like entertaining or
(26:23):
helpful, like the skinnyconfidential about, you know,
health and wellness and tips likethat.
But then I'll listen to some typeof podcast that has to do with
investing or my job, anythingthat's going to create better
version or intelligent version ofme.
And then I will also take notes onthat.
So I'm always, always listening topodcasts.
But my one downfall that I have isthe scrolling at night is I've got
my book by my bed.
But I need to shut that down.
Because it's amazing what littleprogress like 10 pages a day can
(26:44):
do.
So yeah, it's nuts.
But you just have to do it.
Just take the 20 minutes during
the 10 patients.
But now I have something that I've
got my checklist that's holding meaccountable because it's so easy
to just throw this stuff aroundand then be like, what did I
learn?And how am I implementing So...
Right, right.
Yeah.
The Remarkable is a littleexpensive, but it is pretty cool
to be able to have a digitalversion and works really nice.
I mean, I've had it for a whileand And I'll be honest, I haven't
(27:08):
used it as consistently as Ishould.
But over the last whatever couplemonths, I've been really trying to
be consistent.
And as an ADHD person, I tend to
talk over people.
So my executive coach is like,
Luke, anytime that you're tryingto talk over someone, I'm good on
the podcast.
But in other scenarios, I get
excited, I just start talking.
And so he says, write it down.
(27:29):
I also have a problem with, I'm alittle, I want to call it
combative.
I have a very strong opinion about
things and not everybody likes todebate.
So even with my team, you know,he's like, you need to write
things down because like, thinkabout how people feel when you
kind of shut them down, eventhough you don't know you're
shutting them down.
I mean, so I had to learn like,
all right, you literally railroadpeople without knowing it.
(27:50):
And so one of the things I'm doingis in calls, I just write notes,
put myself on mute, write notes,and then I can say it later.
I can share it in a different waywhere I'm not like overriding
them.
So little things like that to sort
of help has been something I'vebeen using Remarkable for.
But I like the whole list idea,something that's been hard with
ADHD to just stick to your system,to be honest.
(28:12):
way Or you're like, oh, there's 75checklists I can download.
I don't know which checklist.
We need to decide because
indecision is a We need to So Iagree.
Awesome.
So I like to leave some sort of
strategy tactic.
If you were, let's say you were
getting started again today, or ifyou're giving advice to a loan
officer in this market, what islike one or two things that they
(28:34):
could do today to go out there andget business, to get more
exposure, you know, to help themgrow?
You know, I think there's a couplethings that come to mind.
One is more on just mortgagelending.
One is involving social media.
I think that, you know, you and I
spoke about, it's so easy toassume that a borrower even knows
how to complete an application.
(28:54):
Right.
So what I have done and what hashelped me is any questions that
I've gotten from clients, I willtake note of that.
And then I have a spreadsheetwhere I ask clients questions.
And I'll basically evolve thisspreadsheet to ask questions and
then say, you know, hey, did youknow that, you know, your first
payment is not due when you getyour mortgage because maybe
they're in a lease?You know, just these little things
(29:16):
that people say, oh, I didn't knowthat.
That is your bread and butter.
The things that people don't know,
take note, take note.
And then take that and create
social media content with itbecause it's so easy to just
assume people know.
But that is also just gold when it
comes to your ability to post, goand create a 20 second video.
When we say VOE, what does thatmean?
When we say VA and FHA, what doesthis mean?
You've got tons of content thatyou can use.
(29:37):
So that would be my tip is focuson those questions that you're
getting.
Or when people say, I didn't know
that I had no idea.
That is your way to have those
calls and be better at those callsand create content that really
client can digest and help themand add value.
And I love that.
That's something that we hear all
the time is like, what do I post?I'm like, you literally just said
(29:57):
you post it, content that peopleare asking And that's me.
the easiest type of content topost because you specifically
know, what they're asking you youis, know, what well, do I post?
I'm you like, literally just saidYou post it.
content that people are asking.
I that's mean, the easiest type of
content to post because you knowspecifically what they're asking
you is, you know, again, what'sLTV?
What's DTI?What credit score do I need to
qualify for this?Like little things like that.
I mean, you know, people thinkthey need 20% down, right?
(30:17):
That's like the main pervasivemyth, I would think, is the 20%
down.
And, you know, it's probably been
overdone, but I think you canalways put your own spin on things
like that or shift the way or talkabout a specific program, right?
Talk about program.
Talk about here we have the
California Dream for All rightnow.
And a lot of people are using thatas a way to get people in the
(30:38):
door.
There's FHA 3.5%.
There's 3% down.
There's down payment assistance
programs.
There's little things like that
that people don't understand,don't get.
I worked for a mortgage companyfor 3 years.
And I finally talked to a loanofficer that was there.
And he's you like, don't I need.
I mean, worked for a mortgage
company for like three years and Ifinally talked to a loan officer
that was there and he's like, youHey, don't need 20% down.
I worked for a mortgage company.
(30:58):
Yes, it was a reverse mortgage
company, but I still worked for amortgage company.
I should have known better.
And so that's what I try to tell
loan officers all the time.
Like the consumer doesn't know.
And when people get mad aboutthings like, well, why did the
consumer not send me the seventhpage of the bank statement?
(31:18):
Because they don't know.
Stop pretending like they know
anything about this transactionthey know nothing about anything
like zero they know nothing stopassuming that anybody knows more
and that's again the curse ofknowledge just stop assuming that
people know anything about themortgage transaction because the
truth is unless they're very verysophisticated which is probably
gonna be like one to five percentof the entire buyer pool like
they're not gonna know anything sobe an advocate be a guide and also
(31:43):
be patient because again, peopledon't understand what they don't
know.
So to me, that's huge.
Any other thoughts, any otheradvice for any loan officers in
this so You know, I keep hearingthis survive until 25 and I keep
hearing that, but I think it'slike, there's no reason why right
now you can't have insane successin 2024.
Just almost, you just have to slowdown sometimes and just stop and
(32:06):
really like take an hour of yourday and just reflect on how you're
doing your business or where areyour deals coming from?
And like we talked aboutconversion, like just maybe take a
day or an hour and just reallylook at your business because
we're so focused on, oh, I'm goingto go to that conference or I'm
going to listen to that podcast orI'm going to go get my next deal.
It's okay to just press pause.
Really just dive into how you've
done and your goals are and reallyhow to like just be better at what
you do.
Yeah, agreed.
100% agreed.
So if anybody wants to learn more
about you, connect with youonline, learn more about, you
(32:26):
know, where you work in, I don'tknow if you're recruiting or
anything like that, but you know,shout out how people can connect
with you.
You can Google me, Kayla Calendar,
calendar with a K. But I'm onInstagram Kayla calendar mortgage.
I'm on LinkedIn.
I'm on TikTok Kayla calendar on
Facebook.
I'm on all the things.
So essentially, I just say if youcan go to Google and you can spell
calendar K-A-L-L-A-N-D-E-R, youwill find me and you can connect
with me.
Awesome.
That's perfect for For someonethat loves social media, dropping
all the social medias is theperfect thing to do.
(32:48):
So Thank you so much.
awesome.
And for like me, my big takeawaysfrom today was really, I mean,
coming down to if you are usingsocial media, it comes down to
consistency, but it comes down toreally just engaging with people
and making social media social.
And what I liked about what you
talked about is something I talkabout a lot too, is so many people
like to think, or maybe they don'tlike to think, but they think that
what's going to get them success,what's going to get them business
is posting about business.
Generally, that's the stuff that's
going to get the least engagement.
And you know, if that's all you
(33:09):
post, you're actually probablygonna get less business by only
posting business than you would ifyou posted maybe 10% to 20 to 30%
business.
And the rest of it is who you are
as a person.
So that's what I've learned over
the years.
I know there may be some other
coaches out there, but you got toeducate your people.
And I'm like, to be honest, no onewants to really like only read
mortgage education, right?Like cool.
Like every once in a while, yes,you should be sprinkling in some
(33:31):
education because you should be athought leader.
But you know, the truth is peoplewant to see your dogs.
They want to see your family.
They want to see, you know, the
lake house, they want to seewhatever the the lake house they
want to see whatever the soccergame all this stuff they want to
see that because that's whatthey're attracted to and so to me
like that was a big thing that wassomething that i think so many
(33:52):
people miss with social media isunderstanding like just be
yourself and that's what's goingto help you win i know often to
see you said it's thrown around alot i say the same thing
authenticity gets thrown around alot but the truth is be really
authentic don't fake it like don'tpretend like you're something else
because a lot of people do that.
And then you show up in person
like, Oh, this is a fricking jerk.
I don't want to work with this
(34:14):
person.
So be who you are.
Be funny.
If you like funny, sure.
Memes.
If you like memes, be serious.
If you're serious, right?Like just be who you are online.
And I think that'll serve youwell.
So if you are listening to thisand you are looking for some help
on flipping the status quo on realestate go agents, to flip the
status quo.com.
Thank you so much to this and you
are looking for some help onflipping the status quo on real
(34:35):
estate go agents, toflipthestatusquo.com.
Thank you so much for listeningand have a great day.
who you for tuning into the LoansOn Demand podcast on
loansondemandpodcast.com.
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