April 25, 2024 • 37 mins
Today, we're joined by Evan Wade. Evan is the President and CEO of Epoch Lending from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and is also the Founder of EpochOS, an all-in-one business management tool for mortgage brokers to automate accounting, finance, business intelligence, commission calculation, and more.
Evan is here to discuss: → Starting in banking at 19, becoming a Loan Officer, and transitioning to CEO and founding his own company. → The importance of expertise and product knowledge to set yourself apart in the industry. → How you can start and maintain your mortgage business and make it run efficiently.
Epoch Lending's Website: www.epochfg.com
EpochOS' Website: www.epochos.com
Evan Wade's LinkedIn: @EvanWade
Evan Wade's Facebook: @EvanWade
Learn more about the Direct to Consumer LO Accelerator here.
Loans On Demand Website: www.loansondemand.io
Loans On Demand YouTube: @LoansOnDemand
Loans On Demand Instagram: @loansondemand
Luke Shankula's Facebook: @LukeShankula
Luke Shankula's LinkedIn: @LukeShankula
Luke Shankula's Instagram: @lukeshankula
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
podcast, the show where we flipthe real estate status quo on its
head and put loan officers intothe driver's seat.
We give you all the tools,strategies, resources, and mindset
needed to modernize your mortgagebusiness and thrive.
My name is Luke Shankula, aka LongForm Luke, and this is the Loans
On Demand podcast.
going on?
Welcome to the Loans On DemandPodcast, the show where we help
(00:24):
loan officers flip the status quoon real estate agents and put loan
officers in the driver's seat.
And I think today's going to be a
good one because we have EvanWade, the CEO of Epic Mortgage,
the founder of Epic OS.
We've been connected on social
media for a few years.
We like to banter sometimes back
and forth on fun stuff.
But man, welcome to the show.
I'm excited to chat, man.
Yeah, thanks for inviting Sweet,
man.
Well, give us a little background
(00:47):
on who you are, why you're in thisindustry, and honestly, what keeps
you in this industry?Because obviously, the last 18, 24
months has been a little bit of acrapshoot.
So talk a little bit about that,man.
Yeah, so I've been in banking andmortgages since I was 19 years
old.
So from a professional job
standpoint, it's really all Iknow.
And I don't know what else I woulddo at this point being in my
mid-30s now.
So over 15 years now, I started
(01:08):
out as a part-time seasonal bankteller.
Just wanted to put a good job onmy resume.
About six months later, I gotpromoted and offered a full-time
job as a customer service And rep.
that is where I learned lending
and offered a full-time job as acustomer service rep.
And that is where I learnedlending and mortgages.
And it was a large depositoryretail bank.
And they had this genius idea ofallowing the customer service reps
to just sit at the desks tooriginate mortgages because it was
(01:32):
2009.
So it was the first refi boom
after everything kind ofcollapsed.
So they were like, okay, we don'thave enough LOs to handle this,
but we can have all these peoplethat sit in the branch just take
applications, be an order taker,anything like that.
So I'm probably the least usefulperson for you to have on a
podcast because I'm not huge.
I'm not a big salesperson, never
(01:53):
been a natural sales guy.
But what I am good at is becoming
an expert in something.
And I think that that in itself is
a great sales tool.
When you can show that you're
smarter than the next person thatthey talk to, they're going to
trust you more.
Instead of just telling people
what they want to hear, like just,you know, the guidelines, you can
(02:14):
speak confidently about whatyou're offering.
And I think that that's kind of asuper chart, especially if you're
an introvert, you know, like I amthat kind of thing, having that
knowledge can give you thatconfidence to really sell it.
So in order for me to sell thosemortgages, they gave us a one day
class, they call it mortgage proor something like that, basically
just taught us how to take aapplication on the mortgage bot
POS that they had and what thedifference between a conventional
(02:36):
FHA, VA, and USDA loan was, or ajumbo loan, I guess.
And that was about it.
And then they were like, okay, go
ahead.
But they didn't teach you anything
about how to structure loans.
We didn't have access to an LOS,
nothing.
They just expected you to take an
application and the processors youknow, the processors and
underwriters, you know, behind thescenes, just somehow figure it
out.
And it was a disaster for the
(02:57):
company as a whole.
They didn't even tell us where to
go to find the guidelines.
But, you know, I went on the
company's internet, went to themortgage section and just found
their post-it guidelines.
And I literally just read it cover
to cover, like a book.
It was kind of my foundational
knowledge behind how to do amortgage.
And then I tied that in with otherknowledge that I'd learned from
doing like HELOCs and personalloans and stuff like that.
(03:18):
What a DTI, LTV, like all thatkind of stuff was.
So I already had that kind offoundational knowledge, but I was
structuring loans to try and getthem to work.
Like I could see their trade linesthat it gave me in the POS, but I
was basically calculating DTI byhand.
So, just on a sheet of paper witha calculator.
I didn't know any better.
And I didn't even have a
spreadsheet.
I guess I should have built a
(03:38):
spreadsheet in hindsight.
Excel.
Yeah, something like that.
So that was my first introduction
to the mortgage business.
And what was great about it is
that I learned that we had thisthing called sales rep, which is
how we met our sales goals everyquarter.
So I learned through our salesrevenue process that I could do
mortgages or HELOCs a handful ofthem every quarter and I could
(04:00):
crush my sales goals just fromdoing that.
So then, you know, you probablyheard the Wells Fargo.
It wasn't Wells Fargo that Iworked for, but they got in
trouble you for, opening know,shadow accounts for people and
stuff like So that.
you then, you know, probably heard
the Wells It Fargo.
wasn't Wells Fargo that I worked
but for, they got in trouble youfor, opening know, shadow accounts
(04:21):
for people and stuff like that.
So we were pressured into selling
credit cards, savings accounts,all that.
So I could kind of relate to thatstory.
It's just that, you know, thisbank never particularly took it to
that level.
So yeah, I was able to just crush
my sales goals doing loans.
And then I kept getting corroded
and made it to assistant managerat the bank running a team of
about 18 people, everythinginvolved with, you know, sales
operations, compliance, you know,of managing a bank branch.
And then I just got burned out,tried getting jobs, including
full-time loan officer, you know,behind the scenes, they were like,
oh, you can make about 60 bips,but you're not going to get any
(04:43):
referrals from the branch.
You're out on your own.
That kind of thing.
I was like, this doesn't seem
worth it.
But I couldn't get any other jobs.
I was interested in wealthmanagement too.
Couldn't get a job, not even as anentry level.
I don't know what it was.
I was always really highly rated
in my reviews, all that.
It's just never even get a So we
(05:04):
So eventually, I just quit on awhim and didn't have a job lined
up.
I was driving an Uber and back
then you can make some good moneyto have an Uber too.
So I was like, you know what?I know I can pay my mortgage and
my car loan and stuff like that bydoing this.
So let me just take a break anddid a little pit stop at a
corporate compliance companycalled the Corporation Service
Company, which is one of the mainregistered agent services.
(05:26):
So for those of you who ownmortgage brokerages out there
probably know what that is,because you need one in every
state registered in.
So the other like work smarter,
not harder kind of thing is that Iwould just search the state
databases for people who weredelinquent on their annual report
filings and just call thoseclients instead of just like, you
know, making a hundred phone callsevery day.
And then my managers were like,can you at least like attempt to
make more phone calls?You're like three X in everybody's
(05:48):
revenue, but you're doing like athird of the work.
It's like, okay, I'm trying.
But that job was really boring.
So I quit that like three monthslater.
But in the meantime, this wouldhave been late 2014 probably.
So back then they didn't even havea separate messenger at that time,
I don't think.
They called it like the other
folder.
And I happened to get a message
from a guy that was a branchmanager, a local mortgage branch
(06:09):
for a retail mortgage company.
This is on Facebook?
Yep, on Facebook.
Yep.
And so this is literally the onlysmart thing this guy has ever
done.
He went on the NMLS consumer
access website, typed in hislittle zip codes here and there
instead of doing like a name or acompany.
And he would just send messages topeople to try and recruit of
anybody that had an NMLS ID.
(06:31):
So if you're a recruiter, that
might work.
You know, he obviously messaged a
guy that was working for a bank atthe time, but he had sent me that
message, like, because it wentinto my other folder and they
didn't send the notifications backthen.
I think he had sent the messagetwo or three years prior to that.
Yeah.
So I finally responded to him when
I saw that.
(06:51):
I was like, hey, I'm just seeing
this now.
I was like, would you hire me
part-time?He's like, sure.
So I went through the 20 hours,took the test, all of that, you
know, obviously because I wasfederally registered before, you
know, I quickly realized, like, ifI want to do this, I can't do it
part time.
Like, I'm never going to be
successful.
So that was a lot of the reason
why I had quit that corporatecompliance job.
So I call that like my quarterlife crisis because it's probably
(07:13):
about I think it was like 25 yearsold at the time because I didn't
get along with this branchmanager, you know, pretty quickly.
He was just kind of the real oldschool, like slimy sales type
running 600, 700 bit margins inthe branch.
And like I had this like 100%disabled veteran that I was trying
to get like this really slim, likepricing exception on and trying to
justify like telling me about how,know mbs works and all i'm like
dude like i understand all thisstuff like then i left him went to
(07:34):
movement mortgage worked there forabout two years so in that span of
like 14 months i had like fivethat because my branch manager
that i left that also changedmortgage companies so you're one
of those loan officers so i onlyleft two mortgage companies was in
movement for two years those loanSo I only officers.
left two mortgage companies, wasin movement for two years.
And then I started my brokerageafter that, my first brokerage.
(07:57):
And I've been doing that now forsix years.
So been pretty stable, I think,for the most part, other than, you
know, diving into my technologyand all that too.
And obviously we'll get into alittle bit.
You got the entrepreneur bug.
i mean and i always have i think
my parents taught me the conceptof profit when i was about like
eight years old when i did a snackstand at the end of my parents
(08:21):
driveway they were small businessowners they sold their business
sure and both of my grandfather'ssmall business owners too so it's
all i really it's in the blood noyeah it's in the blood it's in the
blood man yeah i did.
It's in the blood.
It's in the blood, man.
Yeah.
I did the corporate thing for awhile.
I learned a lot and I'm reallygrateful for it.
Just not for me.
feel you, man.
I worked for a reverse mortgagecompany for four and a half years
or so.
And it was the reason why I
(08:43):
started being an entrepreneur.
I started my own business as well.
It was terrible.
It was the worst experience ever,
but it was also the bestexperience ever.
It was great.
I mean, I learned a lot of stuff.
I met a lot of people.
I learned what I didn't want to
do.
And what I didn't want to do was
work in corporate.
So that was a big decider when
they basically closed shop in2017.
I did the same thing.
And I just went off and figured
(09:04):
out... I actually started acontract processing business.
I realized pretty quickly thatprocesses and systems are not my
thing.
So I closed 2 reverse mortgages.
And I said, hell no, I'm not doingthat again.
Got my license to become a loanofficer.
Kind of realized pretty quicklythat being an AE and being a loan
officer, two very differentthings.
I know the guidelines really well,but I have no idea how to sell to
especially seniors.
And so I fell into marketing and
that's my background.
So it's crazy how that works.
I feel like sometimes you fallinto entrepreneurship because of
(09:25):
bad experiences.
Did you feel like that was how you
up?No, I always knew I wanted to own
a business at some point.
Although I think if I had always
had a great experience in thecorporate world, maybe I would
have never left.
I don't know, you know, or go work
for a company that, you know, likewhat a lot of tech people do,
like, you know, they get in earlyand help a startup get a good
chunk of equity, you know, thatkind of thing.
(09:48):
I could have seen myself doingthat.
But yeah, I mean, I definitelylanded in the whole mortgage thing
kind of by accident.
You know, I was always been
interested in finance and I'm anerd at heart too.
So, you know, my first businessand taste of entrepreneurship was
actually, you know, beyond thesnack stand was in my early
teenage years.
I started a website hosting
business with a guy that I metplaying like a multiplayer online
video game.
Just both of our names are Evan.
So we just kind of clicked andwe're interested in the same kind
(10:11):
of thing.
And we started a website hosting
business together.
And that was like right around
when Google went public.
So it was when AdSense was still
pretty new.
And we made like 14 grand in one
year because we would just put adson everybody's websites and give
them free website hosting everytime somebody clicked on that ad
or whatever we earned you know acouple bucks or whatever and that
added up to like a 14 000 checkfor a 14 15 year old is a lot it's
(10:32):
a good amount of money that youknow back then i mean now 14 grand
now is you know nothing, nothing,but that's true.
Yeah.
I mean, cause yeah, we are 15
years ago.
We are talking over 20 years ago
now, I guess that I was tellingthat.
Yeah.
So yeah, for sure.
That's pretty wild, man.
I had never thought I was gonna be
an entrepreneur.
Honestly, the only I thought I
(10:53):
wanted to do was be inrestaurants.
So anybody who has worked in arestaurant at any time in their
life should be at the top of yourlist for, you know, when you're
reviewing resumes, becausecustomer service, hustle, like all
that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
You know, obviously not all ofthem are that way, but you can at
least, you know, from thereidentify, you know, somebody who's
going to be good out of For AndWell, yeah, there's a sense of
(11:15):
urgency and things like that.
And just obviously dealing with
people.
That's totally true.
I just like to eat, to man, behonest.
And then when I found out thatmargins were so small on
restaurants, I mean, that's notthe thing.
So I thought I was going to go bea CEO of a corporation and
realized pretty quickly, this is astory you'll find funny.
When I was an AE, the CEO of themortgage company comes around,
(11:35):
he's a new CEO.
And he's like, what do you guys
need?What do you need?
I'm like, I would love some moretraining, like sales training,
like stuff like that.
He's like, yeah, companies don't
really do that anymore.
Obviously, the company ended up
imploding and they went out ofbusiness.
But that right there was like,okay, well, this is how corporate
(11:57):
works.
That was kind of an indicator that
maybe corporate was not the worldfor me, because I just wanted to
grow.
I wanted to get better and things
like And it was just so likenonchalant wanted to I wanted to
get that.
better and things like, like that.
And grow.
it was like, just so like
nonchalant, like, yeah, peopledon't do that.
And that's what we find in thisindustry.
To be honest, it's something thatI think is interesting.
(12:19):
What he said a element of truth toit for sure.
And I think that's a badperspective.
And one of the things that I findis I actually had someone reach
out to me.
She said something like, you know,
I love all your training.
I wish I had more of this.
I'm like, unfortunately, a lot ofthe stuff I talk about is stuff
that companies should be tellingpeople how to do marketing, how to
do sales, how to run a discoverycall and build a value
proposition.
Yeah.
And really interesting to me inthis industry day and age is that
everybody is so focused onrecruiting and hiring somebody,
(12:40):
earning that override on somebody,but isn't willing to invest into
the person or do any, like itdrives me nuts.
I see it myself where people areearning money on others, but then
are like asking questions thatit's like, why aren't you going to
the person that's earning 25, 50pips or whatever it is on
everything that you produce?Like we've gotten so deep into
just that recruiting mentalityand, you know, recruiting first
kind of industry without actuallylike it weeded out, right?
Like those people that aren'tbringing that value, like you
really do have to present if youare a regional, if you are a
district, if you are whatever, oneof those sorts of things, like I'm
finding, I mean, people arestarting to get eliminated,
they're cutting their margins,things like that.
(13:01):
But I do see that a lot.
And I've seen it where those
leaders are trying to gatekeep,like they're trying to gatekeep
information, because like, well,they might take this and go
somewhere else.
And to me blows my mind because
that's not leadership that's justbeing a total coward and not
actually having value in any waywe could talk about this all day
yeah you can't that mentalitybecause yeah right i kind of you
(13:21):
know pretty early on realized thati assume that every person that
comes to work in my company isprobably going to leave at some
point so you know you should notget emotional about it, first of
all.
Second of all, just put yourself
in a position where you protectyourself.
Like I've learned a lot over thelast couple of years of, you know,
(13:45):
fronting benefits for people andlike, you know, doing things like
that.
And then they just roll out and
they owe me, you know, four orfive grand.
(14:06):
And they wonder why companyowners, you know, withhold
people's commission or, you know,don't pay them.
And, you know, oftentimes they'rein the red.
Not always.
You know, I'm sure there's, you
know, scumbag company owners outthere and all that.
But there's just ways that you cankind of hedge against that and
just take the emotion out of it,so to speak.
A lot of people get frustrated.
I've seen people try to run broker
shops and you know this goes forwhether you're an lo or you own
your own company like you'rehiring your first ops people and
(14:28):
you know they don't work out andthen you think that it's on you
but like right it's a process justfinding talented people, like
especially if you're training themfresh.
So, you know, it's just fallingdown and getting back up again and
just realizing that you're notalways going to find that diamond
in the rough on your first hire.
from that perspective as well.
A lot of times, I mean, it maycome down to you.
(14:49):
It may come down to, you know,poor choice of hiring people, poor
processes internally, poorleadership.
I mean, there is some ways thatyou can eventually you probably is
your fault a lot of the times.
It's about learning, though, you
know, what it is, where your flawis.
Are you not asking the rightquestions when you're hiring
somebody?Are you not doing, you know,
personality testing?Are you not a good trainer?
(15:10):
So if you're not good at how areyou going to do training, that?
are you going to supplement Like,that you personality with, are
know, you not a good trainer?testing, So if you're not good at
training, how are you going to dothat?
Like, are you going to supplementthat with, you know, external
resources out there that you canpay for, for them to kind of get
that baseline knowledge?Right.
So of the times.
It's about mean, you're learning
(15:31):
too, in that process.
100%.
Especially if you're just a firsttime sort of business owner,
something I've learned over thelast couple of years is like, I
went from control freak, notwanting to delegate anything to
over delegation, to trying to findthe balance between both of those
things, because it is it's a toughtransition.
Because if you are sort of theperson that doesn't want to start
(15:53):
a business, you're typically goingto be a go getter, you're
typically don't want anybody totell you what to do.
And the truth is, the averageemployee needs all of those
things, right.
And so if something you don't
like, like, I don't like to bemicromanaged, some people need to
be micromanaged fortunately it'sjust the truth i mean to a certain
extent i don't think you should bebreathing down their necks but of
(16:13):
course they need to be managed toa process and to expectations i
just find that you just tell mekind of the thing i need to get
done and i'll do it and i'llfigure it out i don't want you to
tell me oh we'll do it this wayand then do it this way no i'll
just figure it out but uh mostpeople aren't like i think that
creates a lot of issues especiallyfor people that are loan officers
and like really good loan officersthat are sales people sales type
people exactly those heightenedpersonalities for the if you
follow this profile type stuff isthat they don't realize that not
(16:36):
everybody has that superproactive, like, you know, figure
things out on their, like theyneed that direction.
And you'd have to be good atrecognizing other people's
personalities, how they learn, howthey're motivated, all of that.
It's all pretty basic stuff, but alot of people overlook that.
And I have in past too.
A hundred percent.
It's something that people don'tnaturally have, I don't think.
There's two different things.
I do think it's leadership and
management.
I think a lot of that is learned
(16:57):
behavior.
And a lot of things that I do
credit my corporate experiencewith going through those
management and leadership coursesand knowing how people tick and
all of that.
I think a lot of people miss out
on that when you don't have thatkind of corporate experience.
100%.
There is something to be said
about systems.
I mean, you don't get that big
without pretty precise systems andprocesses and training and things
like that, right?Like, most small businesses don't
even know what an SOP is, muchless have built any SOPs, right?
(17:18):
And so, you know, when it comesdown to, you know, building a
business, you got to understandthat if you ever want to scale
beyond yourself, and again, a lotof loan officers just are
grinders, and they just want to doit all themselves.
That's okay.
But for the people that want to
grow a team, you need processesand systems and things like that,
right?And one thing I wanted to touch on
is, you've developed this Epic OSplatform.
Is it for brokers specifically?Is it for anybody?
(17:41):
Like what's that platform looklike?
Talk a little bit about that.
Right now it's just for and not
only just for brokers,specifically broker owners are the
primary users of the platform.
So it's basically like an ERP,
Energized Resource Planner formortgage brokers.
So I am tackling efficiencies andautomations for everything that
(18:03):
has nothing to do with loanorigination for running a
business.
Because you've got Arrive, you've
got LendingPad, you've got LoanCatcher with Black Knight.
I'm hearing rumblings of anothercompany about to release a POS,
LOS solution.
And then all those other POS
platforms out there.
I didn't want to get into the POS.
Encompass.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't even want to get into thePOS.
You know Encompass.
Yeah, yeah.
(18:23):
I We all know Encompass.
Yeah, I didn't want to get into
the POS, LOS game.
It's a crowded field.
There's a few people doing itvery, very well.
And I identified that there'sstill nothing really out there
that's helping somebody start andmaintain a mortgage brokerage and
run it really efficiently.
So is this from a commission
tracking perspective or is thislike a lot?
(18:43):
a lot?So actually commission calculation
and reporting was the first modulethat we released because I built
it for myself.
I really quickly scaled to about
40 something employees and I'mmanaging, you know, we're much
smaller now, but you know, Ireally quickly learned that, you
know, doing all that stuff onspreadsheets is not really
scalable.
So I developed software
specifically to handle that.
And then just over the, like the
last two years, I kind of had thataha moment of, you know, I'm
starting to see like some of'rekind of out on an island.
(19:05):
You know, there's nobody out thereto help them.
They've got all this extra work.
They just want to originate.
And when you do the numbers, ifyou can get to go to a good
company that pays solid comp, goodprocesses and all that, sometimes
it doesn't make sense to own abrokerage.
But for me, it's like, if youstarted a brokerage, you probably
(19:27):
did it for the same primaryreasons I did.
I think you have thatentrepreneurial mindset.
You want to own your own business.
So I just kind of felt bad on
those scenarios.
And I just also identified all the
pain points it is for me to run mybrokerage.
And I'm like, why don't I justdevelop a unified platform to
(19:47):
handle all of those things?So yeah, why don't like, I just
develop a unified platform tohandle all of those things?
So yeah, like I said, commissioncalculation and reporting is the
first thing we tackled.
And this is where loan officers
can currently log in and ops staffcan log into the platform and see
their commission reportsinstantly.
So for those of you workingretail, if you're familiar with
(20:08):
Compensate or other things likethat, it's very similar to that.
It's just obviously affordable formortgage brokers where those other
platforms are not.
The feature that we're about to
launch, we're kind of in finaltesting with an integration with
QuickBooks.
So if you're doing your books
properly, it's a pretty heavy liftas a mortgage broker because
you're getting that checker wirefrom the title company, but it's
(20:31):
usually combined with pass-throughexpense reimbursements for the
credit report, maybe an appraisal,maybe VOEs, that kind of thing.
If you're doing your booksproperly, you should be breaking
all of those out into thosedifferent categories.
And that's a lot of work, a lot ofdata entry, either on you or a
(20:58):
bookkeeper to do.
So we created a sync where we have
most of that information already.
You fill in a couple things and
click the sync button and boom, itpops right in QuickBooks as a
sales receipt.
So then it's really easy to do
your revenue reconciliation aswell.
We just started development on thedata analytics and visualization
(21:19):
as well.
So you'll be able to see all of
your performance numbers and, youknow, drill down to the yellow.
So the yellow will be able to login and see their own stuff.
Branch managers will be able tosee their whole branch.
And then, you know, company ownersobviously can see everything.
So everything you can think of,rankings, your KPIs, so where
you're tracking your company andindividual goals, how fast you are
(21:42):
at closing loans, geographicalheat maps.
Broker owners will appreciatethis.
When you do your new broker appsor renewals, you have to plug in
your volume numbers sometimes forlike the last two years.
And how many of them werecommercial?
How many of them were VA?Yeah, you'll be able to just log
into that's Oh, what I was goingto ask.
Yeah, you'll be able to just loginto my data analytics portal and
it's going to give you all thatinformation automatically from
(22:03):
your LOS.
So in the future, we're looking at
doing a corporate card withexpense management attached to it
too.
So like an app type of a solution.
So every LOS can get their card.
You can identify who it's for, you
know, that kind of thing.
And like have caps.
Yep.
also do like industry specific
rewards to you attach youradvantage credit bill to this card
(22:25):
i'm going to give you a 3x pointsor whatever it is there so that's
how it'll you know incentivizepeople to move away from amex log
into that's Oh, what I was yeahsome of those chase that's cool
man i'm thinking like i don't knowif you got anything to do with
like call reports and of thosekind of.
Yeah.
(22:46):
So for the actual call reports,
arrive and lending, Pat do areally good job of aggravating all
that data, exporting it as an XML.
But what there is, is the annual
MCR financial condition reportthat has to be filed that an LOS
is never going to have all thatdata.
So we'll pull from basically yourP&L from QuickBooks through that
(23:06):
integration, categorize it theway, you know, NMLS wants it.
And then the same concept, you canexport that XML and import it in
NMLS.
So, you know, the idea is that
you'll be able to file that in,you know, 15 minutes first.
I mean, I do it once a year.
Hours?
It takes me hours.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, especially if you're
running a big shop and stuff likethat, obviously, a single person,
(23:28):
you know, single person brokerage,it's hard.
Believe it or not.
I mean, yeah, bigger you get, the
more complicated your financialsget in terms of like categories
and all that.
But like, even when we were small,
it was pretty difficult to do it.
I see in the arrive bird all the
time, people are asking, doesarrive do the MCRFC?
No, it doesn't do that because itdoesn't have any of that data, nor
should it.
It's not an accounting software.
It's a POS, LOS.
(23:48):
Right, right.
Well, you're explaining exactlywhy, you know, brokers that
started their own brokers to starta business are like, hell no, I
don't want to do this, man.
I just want to originate, close
loans, you know, do the normalstuff.
I mean, you can operate a team,but everything else sucks.
I mean, it sounds like at leastfor someone like me, who is very
little process oriented and why Ihave a COO and an operations
(24:11):
person as my right hand woman isbecause I realized pretty quickly,
I just create chaos.
I mean, to be honest.
So yeah, I that's obviously thesoftware is designed to do for
those who do want to own abrokerage, want to be able to do
it more efficiently and easier andall that.
That's what the software isdesigned to do.
So anybody who does have thatentrepreneurial mindset can kind
of hit the ground running.
Nice.
That's pretty cool.
(24:32):
And obviously, I think there is
people out there that maybe theywould have even kept it if they
didn't feel like, you know,there's not the resources.
And, you know, unfortunately, likelike you said there isn't a ton of
resources i know there's been somepush with organizations in the
past to try to help with that to acertain degree some of them have
(24:53):
done a great job of creatingcommunity and people that lean on
and all of that right but i've yetto see like really super impactful
content obviously like you canhave all those training resources
out there, but there's still youneed software or some type of
process to make it efficient.
Like, it's very easy to say, go
create all this stuff to automateeverything.
But it's hundreds of thousands ofdollars to actually design all of
that stuff, because I guess youcan do a lot of it in Excel with
(25:15):
really fancy, you know, pivottables, formulas, all that kind of
stuff that I'm sure a lot ofbroker shops have figured out how
to do.
That's hundreds of hours.
That's hundreds of hours of time.
Exactly.
So there's just no easy way to doit.
And you can share resources, stufflike that.
But wouldn't it be easier just tosign up for software and spend a
little bit of money?And most of the lifting is just
(25:36):
done for you.
I agree.
It's something I mean, again,that's a lot of what goes along
with running a business that Ithink a lot of times, especially
loan officers that maybe haven'tthought about it from that
perspective, don't understandlike, you have to create processes
and systems.
I mean, you know, because if you
ever want to scale beyondyourself, and maybe one or two
people, you have to have writtendown processes, you have to have
specific, you know, automations inplace.
you're Otherwise, just havewritten down You processes.
(25:57):
have to have you specific,automations know, in place.
Otherwise, you're just going towork more hours.
And at a certain point, you'regoing to burn out.
Maybe you don't.
Maybe you're a unicorn.
There is some unicorns out therethat are really good at sales and
really good at process-orientedstuff.
But again, I think those peopleare unicorns.
They sure are.
And they're not typical, right?
I mean, you know, they're eithergoing to be typically like you,
(26:19):
Evan.
They're going to be very like
detail-oriented.
I can freaking structure it
backwards and forwards.
Or they're going to be like, I
don't even know how to run DU.
I don't even know how to do any of
that stuff.
But they can freaking make it rain
with sales, right?So there is that little hybrid
that is out there that does wellwith both of those things.
But that's not a typical human.
I mean, that's just not how humans
typically work.
So just have different
personalities.
So from that perspective, as
(26:42):
you're growing, I mean, you grewthe brokerage pretty quickly.
You've kind of pulled back alittle bit on the scale, which,
you know, it's probably a goodthing.
Sometimes, you know, bringing ontoo many people and people in the
wrong seat sucks.
But how do you manage that from
that perspective?Are you doing a lot of that?
Do you have someone on the teamthat sort of manages that?
(27:02):
What's that look like?Yeah, I have a and I have a good
amount of help that helps with alot of those time consuming tasks
for the bookkeeping payroll.
Obviously we cut down on the
payroll time significantly, butsomebody still got to go in there,
you know, actually run it inpayroll system and all that.
And so I have embedded payroll inmy platform as well.
Nice.
Yeah.
So I have a, like a right-handperson.
(27:22):
She helps me with a little bit ofeverything, state examinations
when we're going through those,all that.
And then we recently hired avirtual assistant out of the
Philippines.
And she's been great so far, too.
So it's a great resource.
A lot of places are doing it now.
You know, I'd love to hireeverybody stateside, but I'm
competing with these, you know,$200 a file broker shops out
there.
You know, so I got to make with
what thin margins I have.
Well, let's be honest, bro.
(27:43):
I mean, I know people like to hateon that.
But that's just the way the worldworks.
I mean, you know, that's how weget cheap Nike stuff, all the
goods and services we did.
People love to talk about bringing
everything stateside, but theydon't understand that everything
would probably quadruple in priceif that happened.
Yeah.
And I don't think they would be
very happy with everythingquadrupling in price.
But yeah, they think everybodyshould have a livable wage.
Like, okay, well, you can't haveboth things.
It's just not how economics works,unfortunately.
But I want to try to leave withsome sort of tangible tactic.
I know you're not activelyoriginating.
(28:04):
I know you said you're not thebest at marketing or sales.
But for whatever reason, you madesales, you built a business,
you've attracted people to workwith you.
So I am going to disagree.
I think maybe you're not good in
the traditional sense of likebullying sales.
I don't personally think thatthat's real sales.
In my opinion, sales is finding aproblem and providing a solution.
That is really what sales is.
Yep.
You don't have to convince someoneif they convince themselves, if
you present the right plan.
So talk a little bit about like in
(28:26):
this market, what are you seeingmaybe some of the people on your
team doing?Or what are you seeing maybe some
of the people on your team doing?Or what would you recommend to
maybe a new person or someonewho's maybe struggling in this
market to get some business rightnow?
I mean, it goes back to kind ofwhat the whole subject of our talk
was, is product knowledge.
If you're not an expert in what
you're selling, like in this kindof market, you have to
differentiate yourself.
And just being a really super
salesy type, I don't think isgoing to cut it in this market.
(28:49):
I guess, unless you're really,really, really good at talking and
networking and all of that kind ofstuff.
But to me, it always gets back toproduct knowledge at the end of
the day, when you can get on thephone and answer things without,
you know, looking up guidelines,whatever, you looking know, up
guidelines, whatever.
You know, I learned how to, if a
customer asked me a question, youknow, I didn't say, I don't know,
(29:11):
I'll get back to you.
I would kind of redirect the
conversation to something else.
And while they're talking, I'm
looking up the answer, you know,that kind of thing.
And then I can tell them on thefly just because I knew where to
go on the guidelines and all thattoo.
So I'll always recommend that likeour business is still far too
complicated and so many differentvariables that you can't just go
(29:33):
out there and sell, sell, sell.
Like you need to study.
And obviously the 20-hour classdoesn't teach you that.
No, it doesn't do anything.
I took that class.
So, you know, I don't rememberanything from that.
But I will say this.
I will say I tell this to this.
people all the A lot of timestime.
people come to brand new loanofficers us, are I don't remember
like, oh,, anything from but Iwill say that, I will say this,
this, I tell this to people allthe time.
(29:55):
A lot of times people come to us,brand new loan officers are like,
Oh, should I buy leads?I'm like, no, do not buy leads.
You probably shouldn't buy leadsfor at least a year, maybe two
years.
Like you have to get good at the
fundamentals first.
And unfortunately, something I
tell new people too, is you got togo out there and grind, man.
You got to go out and talk topeople.
You got to go out and shake hands.
You got to talk to everybody in
(30:16):
your phone book.
You just got to talk to people
because you don't know the productwell enough to buy leads because
that's two separate things.
It's easy to get people on the
phone.
What are you going to say when
you're on the phone?What do you say?
Exactly.
Exactly.
If you're good on the phone, theystart asking questions.
Right.
How do you answer that question
with knowledge i think consumersare really starting to get smart
to not be roped in you know thesurface level type of
conversations when they're dealingwith a mortgage you know there's
just so much information out therenowadays that they can kind of see
(30:37):
through that with a you need to bean expert you need to be an expert
and that's the truth i mean aboutanything right i remember some of
the posts i put about marketingback in 2017 and i'm like did i
really make that post is that areal post that i made about
marketing like that's just mebeing so salesy oh you should do
(30:59):
facebook ads like this is so greati didn't know anything about it i
really didn't know how to run adslike dude it's wild to look back
at some of those posts and be likeoh all right i was one of those i
was one of those guys that youhate evan i might be still one of
those guys that you hate but heythat you hate but hey we've come
full circle i intentionally do notaccept you know the friend
(31:19):
requests from a lot of thosemarketers we call marketing gurus
they like yeah or we call themwhatever yeah no you actually have
been in the weeds you'veoriginated loans you've been in a
like you know the business so likeobviously you have that knowledge
of what we go through asoriginators are on our side.
So yeah.
Yeah, glad man.
And you know, I just try to tellthe truth as much as possible.
People don't like it all the time.
(31:41):
But you know, like there is a
company out there saying 15 fundedloans in 90 days.
I'm like, well, I mean, unlessthese are like hot, hot referrals,
even referrals might not close in90 days.
Let's be honest in this market.
It's crazy.
So man, any parting words,anything that you want to leave
everybody with?I do.
If you listen to other podcasts,I've been, I guess on, I'm a
little repetitive on it, but Ithink it's always a great takeaway
to say to people is that when itcomes to entrepreneurship, owning
a business, or if you're listeningto this and you're a processor,
but you want to be an LO, butyou're afraid of taking that leap.
I always say that you're going toregret not doing it far more than
doing it and failing.
Who cares if you fail?
(32:02):
If you fail, you go pivot and youdo something else.
You'll always look back on yourlife later on and be like, why
didn't I try that?But if you do it, so that's kind
of what I've always lived my lifeby.
If I want to do something, I'mgoing to do it.
And I don't really care if I failor not.
Interestingly enough, man, I havean executive coach.
And one of the things he says isthat success is not a very good
teacher.
Failure is a much better teacher
(32:23):
than success.
And that was pretty cool.
I know that.
And I would say that I've learned
more about leadership and how torun a business and all of that
stuff from the people that areterrible at it than the people
that are good at it.
My good managers and all of that
were just more inspiring types ofpeople to me.
And I looked up to them and thatkind of thing.
But I wouldn't say that I learneda whole lot from them.
(32:43):
They were just there asinspiration for me.
But the people who in my careerthat I've seen have been terrible,
like you just learn how not to payRight.
I agree.
I mean, the same thing I've
learned with, you know, I bought alot of programs and courses and
things like that over the years.
And some of them were great and
some of them were terrible.
But I learned something from every
single one because the truth is Ilearned what not to do as a
business owner and I learned whatto do from the good ones but again
like you said a lot of it camefrom the bad ones learning all
(33:06):
right well that's a terribleclient experience i don't want
that to ever happen so it's aninteresting thing there so real
quick if someone wanted to learn alittle bit more about epic epic os
where can they go find it connectwith you online man what's the
best way to find you yeah so i'mreally active on facebook so
obviously you can search my namei'll probably show it right up
(33:28):
because probably have mutualfriends but i think it's
facebook.com slash e wade 88 andthen epic os.com that's e p o c h
o s.com if you're a broker ownerand you're you know interested in
talking more about making yourbusiness more efficient you can
book a personalized demo with meon there.
I'm not pre-recorded or anything.
I'm still doing them one-on-one
because I like learning from...
Still grinding.
Well, I like learning frombrokerages and what their
particular pain points are.
And it really helps me shape the
(33:49):
direction of development we'regoing into of what they most want.
So you can't really do that fromjust pushing you know, pushing out
a little video or something andshow people the system, you know,
so we'll get to that point, youknow, down the road.
But right now I like listening andlearning.
is smart, man.
I mean, getting a pulse on what's
going on in the real world ispretty important.
(34:09):
Honestly, I'm actually going to betaking some sales calls for the
next probably 30, 60 days, justbecause I'm like, man, I just want
to see what's going on in themarket.
How are people feeling all thatkind of stuff.
And I'd like to do that probablyonce a year and just get back on
the calls.
Because it does really give you a
good understanding of what arepeople feeling?
What's their energy like and justseeing what it looks like from
other people on my team'sperspective.
(34:30):
So I love that, man.
For me, big takeaways from today
is creating systems and processesaround what you do.
Obviously, we talked a lot aboutyour platform.
But you know, even if you don'tuse that platform, understanding
that if you do want to grow, ifyou do want to scale, you need to
have processes and systems inorder to grow.
Otherwise you're just going to besort of all over the place, man.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
(34:51):
And for, if you are listening tothis and you are looking for some
help on flipping the status quo onreal estate agents, go to flip the
status quo.com.
Thank you so much for listening.
Have a great day.
it you for tuning into the loans
on demand podcast on loans ondemand podcast.com.
podcast, the show where we flipthe real estate status quo on its
head and put loan officers intothe driver's seat.
We give you all the tools,strategies, resources, and mindset
needed to modernize your mortgagebusiness and thrive.
My name is Luke Shankula, aka LongForm Luke, and this is the Loans
On Demand podcast.
going on?
Welcome to the Loans On DemandPodcast, the show where we help
(00:24):
loan officers flip the status quoon real estate agents and put loan
officers in the driver's seat.
And I think today's going to be a
good one because we have EvanWade, the CEO of Epic Mortgage,
the founder of Epic OS.
We've been connected on social
media for a few years.
We like to banter sometimes back
and forth on fun stuff.
But man, welcome to the show.
I'm excited to chat, man.
Yeah, thanks for inviting Sweet,
man.
Well, give us a little background
(00:47):
on who you are, why you're in thisindustry, and honestly, what keeps
you in this industry?Because obviously, the last 18, 24
months has been a little bit of acrapshoot.
So talk a little bit about that,man.
Yeah, so I've been in banking andmortgages since I was 19 years
old.
So from a professional job
standpoint, it's really all Iknow.
And I don't know what else I woulddo at this point being in my
mid-30s now.
So over 15 years now, I started
(01:08):
out as a part-time seasonal bankteller.
Just wanted to put a good job onmy resume.
About six months later, I gotpromoted and offered a full-time
job as a customer service And rep.
that is where I learned lending
and offered a full-time job as acustomer service rep.
And that is where I learnedlending and mortgages.
And it was a large depositoryretail bank.
And they had this genius idea ofallowing the customer service reps
to just sit at the desks tooriginate mortgages because it was
(01:32):
2009.
So it was the first refi boom
after everything kind ofcollapsed.
So they were like, okay, we don'thave enough LOs to handle this,
but we can have all these peoplethat sit in the branch just take
applications, be an order taker,anything like that.
So I'm probably the least usefulperson for you to have on a
podcast because I'm not huge.
I'm not a big salesperson, never
(01:53):
been a natural sales guy.
But what I am good at is becoming
an expert in something.
And I think that that in itself is
a great sales tool.
When you can show that you're
smarter than the next person thatthey talk to, they're going to
trust you more.
Instead of just telling people
what they want to hear, like just,you know, the guidelines, you can
(02:14):
speak confidently about whatyou're offering.
And I think that that's kind of asuper chart, especially if you're
an introvert, you know, like I amthat kind of thing, having that
knowledge can give you thatconfidence to really sell it.
So in order for me to sell thosemortgages, they gave us a one day
class, they call it mortgage proor something like that, basically
just taught us how to take aapplication on the mortgage bot
POS that they had and what thedifference between a conventional
(02:36):
FHA, VA, and USDA loan was, or ajumbo loan, I guess.
And that was about it.
And then they were like, okay, go
ahead.
But they didn't teach you anything
about how to structure loans.
We didn't have access to an LOS,
nothing.
They just expected you to take an
application and the processors youknow, the processors and
underwriters, you know, behind thescenes, just somehow figure it
out.
And it was a disaster for the
(02:57):
company as a whole.
They didn't even tell us where to
go to find the guidelines.
But, you know, I went on the
company's internet, went to themortgage section and just found
their post-it guidelines.
And I literally just read it cover
to cover, like a book.
It was kind of my foundational
knowledge behind how to do amortgage.
And then I tied that in with otherknowledge that I'd learned from
doing like HELOCs and personalloans and stuff like that.
(03:18):
What a DTI, LTV, like all thatkind of stuff was.
So I already had that kind offoundational knowledge, but I was
structuring loans to try and getthem to work.
Like I could see their trade linesthat it gave me in the POS, but I
was basically calculating DTI byhand.
So, just on a sheet of paper witha calculator.
I didn't know any better.
And I didn't even have a
spreadsheet.
I guess I should have built a
(03:38):
spreadsheet in hindsight.
Excel.
Yeah, something like that.
So that was my first introduction
to the mortgage business.
And what was great about it is
that I learned that we had thisthing called sales rep, which is
how we met our sales goals everyquarter.
So I learned through our salesrevenue process that I could do
mortgages or HELOCs a handful ofthem every quarter and I could
(04:00):
crush my sales goals just fromdoing that.
So then, you know, you probablyheard the Wells Fargo.
It wasn't Wells Fargo that Iworked for, but they got in
trouble you for, opening know,shadow accounts for people and
stuff like So that.
you then, you know, probably heard
the Wells It Fargo.
wasn't Wells Fargo that I worked
but for, they got in trouble youfor, opening know, shadow accounts
(04:21):
for people and stuff like that.
So we were pressured into selling
credit cards, savings accounts,all that.
So I could kind of relate to thatstory.
It's just that, you know, thisbank never particularly took it to
that level.
So yeah, I was able to just crush
my sales goals doing loans.
And then I kept getting corroded
and made it to assistant managerat the bank running a team of
about 18 people, everythinginvolved with, you know, sales
operations, compliance, you know,of managing a bank branch.
And then I just got burned out,tried getting jobs, including
full-time loan officer, you know,behind the scenes, they were like,
oh, you can make about 60 bips,but you're not going to get any
(04:43):
referrals from the branch.
You're out on your own.
That kind of thing.
I was like, this doesn't seem
worth it.
But I couldn't get any other jobs.
I was interested in wealthmanagement too.
Couldn't get a job, not even as anentry level.
I don't know what it was.
I was always really highly rated
in my reviews, all that.
It's just never even get a So we
(05:04):
So eventually, I just quit on awhim and didn't have a job lined
up.
I was driving an Uber and back
then you can make some good moneyto have an Uber too.
So I was like, you know what?I know I can pay my mortgage and
my car loan and stuff like that bydoing this.
So let me just take a break anddid a little pit stop at a
corporate compliance companycalled the Corporation Service
Company, which is one of the mainregistered agent services.
(05:26):
So for those of you who ownmortgage brokerages out there
probably know what that is,because you need one in every
state registered in.
So the other like work smarter,
not harder kind of thing is that Iwould just search the state
databases for people who weredelinquent on their annual report
filings and just call thoseclients instead of just like, you
know, making a hundred phone callsevery day.
And then my managers were like,can you at least like attempt to
make more phone calls?You're like three X in everybody's
(05:48):
revenue, but you're doing like athird of the work.
It's like, okay, I'm trying.
But that job was really boring.
So I quit that like three monthslater.
But in the meantime, this wouldhave been late 2014 probably.
So back then they didn't even havea separate messenger at that time,
I don't think.
They called it like the other
folder.
And I happened to get a message
from a guy that was a branchmanager, a local mortgage branch
(06:09):
for a retail mortgage company.
This is on Facebook?
Yep, on Facebook.
Yep.
And so this is literally the onlysmart thing this guy has ever
done.
He went on the NMLS consumer
access website, typed in hislittle zip codes here and there
instead of doing like a name or acompany.
And he would just send messages topeople to try and recruit of
anybody that had an NMLS ID.
(06:31):
So if you're a recruiter, that
might work.
You know, he obviously messaged a
guy that was working for a bank atthe time, but he had sent me that
message, like, because it wentinto my other folder and they
didn't send the notifications backthen.
I think he had sent the messagetwo or three years prior to that.
Yeah.
So I finally responded to him when
I saw that.
(06:51):
I was like, hey, I'm just seeing
this now.
I was like, would you hire me
part-time?He's like, sure.
So I went through the 20 hours,took the test, all of that, you
know, obviously because I wasfederally registered before, you
know, I quickly realized, like, ifI want to do this, I can't do it
part time.
Like, I'm never going to be
successful.
So that was a lot of the reason
why I had quit that corporatecompliance job.
So I call that like my quarterlife crisis because it's probably
(07:13):
about I think it was like 25 yearsold at the time because I didn't
get along with this branchmanager, you know, pretty quickly.
He was just kind of the real oldschool, like slimy sales type
running 600, 700 bit margins inthe branch.
And like I had this like 100%disabled veteran that I was trying
to get like this really slim, likepricing exception on and trying to
justify like telling me about how,know mbs works and all i'm like
dude like i understand all thisstuff like then i left him went to
(07:34):
movement mortgage worked there forabout two years so in that span of
like 14 months i had like fivethat because my branch manager
that i left that also changedmortgage companies so you're one
of those loan officers so i onlyleft two mortgage companies was in
movement for two years those loanSo I only officers.
left two mortgage companies, wasin movement for two years.
And then I started my brokerageafter that, my first brokerage.
(07:57):
And I've been doing that now forsix years.
So been pretty stable, I think,for the most part, other than, you
know, diving into my technologyand all that too.
And obviously we'll get into alittle bit.
You got the entrepreneur bug.
i mean and i always have i think
my parents taught me the conceptof profit when i was about like
eight years old when i did a snackstand at the end of my parents
(08:21):
driveway they were small businessowners they sold their business
sure and both of my grandfather'ssmall business owners too so it's
all i really it's in the blood noyeah it's in the blood it's in the
blood man yeah i did.
It's in the blood.
It's in the blood, man.
Yeah.
I did the corporate thing for awhile.
I learned a lot and I'm reallygrateful for it.
Just not for me.
feel you, man.
I worked for a reverse mortgagecompany for four and a half years
or so.
And it was the reason why I
(08:43):
started being an entrepreneur.
I started my own business as well.
It was terrible.
It was the worst experience ever,
but it was also the bestexperience ever.
It was great.
I mean, I learned a lot of stuff.
I met a lot of people.
I learned what I didn't want to
do.
And what I didn't want to do was
work in corporate.
So that was a big decider when
they basically closed shop in2017.
I did the same thing.
And I just went off and figured
(09:04):
out... I actually started acontract processing business.
I realized pretty quickly thatprocesses and systems are not my
thing.
So I closed 2 reverse mortgages.
And I said, hell no, I'm not doingthat again.
Got my license to become a loanofficer.
Kind of realized pretty quicklythat being an AE and being a loan
officer, two very differentthings.
I know the guidelines really well,but I have no idea how to sell to
especially seniors.
And so I fell into marketing and
that's my background.
So it's crazy how that works.
I feel like sometimes you fallinto entrepreneurship because of
(09:25):
bad experiences.
Did you feel like that was how you
up?No, I always knew I wanted to own
a business at some point.
Although I think if I had always
had a great experience in thecorporate world, maybe I would
have never left.
I don't know, you know, or go work
for a company that, you know, likewhat a lot of tech people do,
like, you know, they get in earlyand help a startup get a good
chunk of equity, you know, thatkind of thing.
(09:48):
I could have seen myself doingthat.
But yeah, I mean, I definitelylanded in the whole mortgage thing
kind of by accident.
You know, I was always been
interested in finance and I'm anerd at heart too.
So, you know, my first businessand taste of entrepreneurship was
actually, you know, beyond thesnack stand was in my early
teenage years.
I started a website hosting
business with a guy that I metplaying like a multiplayer online
video game.
Just both of our names are Evan.
So we just kind of clicked andwe're interested in the same kind
(10:11):
of thing.
And we started a website hosting
business together.
And that was like right around
when Google went public.
So it was when AdSense was still
pretty new.
And we made like 14 grand in one
year because we would just put adson everybody's websites and give
them free website hosting everytime somebody clicked on that ad
or whatever we earned you know acouple bucks or whatever and that
added up to like a 14 000 checkfor a 14 15 year old is a lot it's
(10:32):
a good amount of money that youknow back then i mean now 14 grand
now is you know nothing, nothing,but that's true.
Yeah.
I mean, cause yeah, we are 15
years ago.
We are talking over 20 years ago
now, I guess that I was tellingthat.
Yeah.
So yeah, for sure.
That's pretty wild, man.
I had never thought I was gonna be
an entrepreneur.
Honestly, the only I thought I
(10:53):
wanted to do was be inrestaurants.
So anybody who has worked in arestaurant at any time in their
life should be at the top of yourlist for, you know, when you're
reviewing resumes, becausecustomer service, hustle, like all
that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
You know, obviously not all ofthem are that way, but you can at
least, you know, from thereidentify, you know, somebody who's
going to be good out of For AndWell, yeah, there's a sense of
(11:15):
urgency and things like that.
And just obviously dealing with
people.
That's totally true.
I just like to eat, to man, behonest.
And then when I found out thatmargins were so small on
restaurants, I mean, that's notthe thing.
So I thought I was going to go bea CEO of a corporation and
realized pretty quickly, this is astory you'll find funny.
When I was an AE, the CEO of themortgage company comes around,
(11:35):
he's a new CEO.
And he's like, what do you guys
need?What do you need?
I'm like, I would love some moretraining, like sales training,
like stuff like that.
He's like, yeah, companies don't
really do that anymore.
Obviously, the company ended up
imploding and they went out ofbusiness.
But that right there was like,okay, well, this is how corporate
(11:57):
works.
That was kind of an indicator that
maybe corporate was not the worldfor me, because I just wanted to
grow.
I wanted to get better and things
like And it was just so likenonchalant wanted to I wanted to
get that.
better and things like, like that.
And grow.
it was like, just so like
nonchalant, like, yeah, peopledon't do that.
And that's what we find in thisindustry.
To be honest, it's something thatI think is interesting.
(12:19):
What he said a element of truth toit for sure.
And I think that's a badperspective.
And one of the things that I findis I actually had someone reach
out to me.
She said something like, you know,
I love all your training.
I wish I had more of this.
I'm like, unfortunately, a lot ofthe stuff I talk about is stuff
that companies should be tellingpeople how to do marketing, how to
do sales, how to run a discoverycall and build a value
proposition.
Yeah.
And really interesting to me inthis industry day and age is that
everybody is so focused onrecruiting and hiring somebody,
(12:40):
earning that override on somebody,but isn't willing to invest into
the person or do any, like itdrives me nuts.
I see it myself where people areearning money on others, but then
are like asking questions thatit's like, why aren't you going to
the person that's earning 25, 50pips or whatever it is on
everything that you produce?Like we've gotten so deep into
just that recruiting mentalityand, you know, recruiting first
kind of industry without actuallylike it weeded out, right?
Like those people that aren'tbringing that value, like you
really do have to present if youare a regional, if you are a
district, if you are whatever, oneof those sorts of things, like I'm
finding, I mean, people arestarting to get eliminated,
they're cutting their margins,things like that.
(13:01):
But I do see that a lot.
And I've seen it where those
leaders are trying to gatekeep,like they're trying to gatekeep
information, because like, well,they might take this and go
somewhere else.
And to me blows my mind because
that's not leadership that's justbeing a total coward and not
actually having value in any waywe could talk about this all day
yeah you can't that mentalitybecause yeah right i kind of you
(13:21):
know pretty early on realized thati assume that every person that
comes to work in my company isprobably going to leave at some
point so you know you should notget emotional about it, first of
all.
Second of all, just put yourself
in a position where you protectyourself.
Like I've learned a lot over thelast couple of years of, you know,
(13:45):
fronting benefits for people andlike, you know, doing things like
that.
And then they just roll out and
they owe me, you know, four orfive grand.
(14:06):
And they wonder why companyowners, you know, withhold
people's commission or, you know,don't pay them.
And, you know, oftentimes they'rein the red.
Not always.
You know, I'm sure there's, you
know, scumbag company owners outthere and all that.
But there's just ways that you cankind of hedge against that and
just take the emotion out of it,so to speak.
A lot of people get frustrated.
I've seen people try to run broker
shops and you know this goes forwhether you're an lo or you own
your own company like you'rehiring your first ops people and
(14:28):
you know they don't work out andthen you think that it's on you
but like right it's a process justfinding talented people, like
especially if you're training themfresh.
So, you know, it's just fallingdown and getting back up again and
just realizing that you're notalways going to find that diamond
in the rough on your first hire.
from that perspective as well.
A lot of times, I mean, it maycome down to you.
(14:49):
It may come down to, you know,poor choice of hiring people, poor
processes internally, poorleadership.
I mean, there is some ways thatyou can eventually you probably is
your fault a lot of the times.
It's about learning, though, you
know, what it is, where your flawis.
Are you not asking the rightquestions when you're hiring
somebody?Are you not doing, you know,
personality testing?Are you not a good trainer?
(15:10):
So if you're not good at how areyou going to do training, that?
are you going to supplement Like,that you personality with, are
know, you not a good trainer?testing, So if you're not good at
training, how are you going to dothat?
Like, are you going to supplementthat with, you know, external
resources out there that you canpay for, for them to kind of get
that baseline knowledge?Right.
So of the times.
It's about mean, you're learning
(15:31):
too, in that process.
100%.
Especially if you're just a firsttime sort of business owner,
something I've learned over thelast couple of years is like, I
went from control freak, notwanting to delegate anything to
over delegation, to trying to findthe balance between both of those
things, because it is it's a toughtransition.
Because if you are sort of theperson that doesn't want to start
(15:53):
a business, you're typically goingto be a go getter, you're
typically don't want anybody totell you what to do.
And the truth is, the averageemployee needs all of those
things, right.
And so if something you don't
like, like, I don't like to bemicromanaged, some people need to
be micromanaged fortunately it'sjust the truth i mean to a certain
extent i don't think you should bebreathing down their necks but of
(16:13):
course they need to be managed toa process and to expectations i
just find that you just tell mekind of the thing i need to get
done and i'll do it and i'llfigure it out i don't want you to
tell me oh we'll do it this wayand then do it this way no i'll
just figure it out but uh mostpeople aren't like i think that
creates a lot of issues especiallyfor people that are loan officers
and like really good loan officersthat are sales people sales type
people exactly those heightenedpersonalities for the if you
follow this profile type stuff isthat they don't realize that not
(16:36):
everybody has that superproactive, like, you know, figure
things out on their, like theyneed that direction.
And you'd have to be good atrecognizing other people's
personalities, how they learn, howthey're motivated, all of that.
It's all pretty basic stuff, but alot of people overlook that.
And I have in past too.
A hundred percent.
It's something that people don'tnaturally have, I don't think.
There's two different things.
I do think it's leadership and
management.
I think a lot of that is learned
(16:57):
behavior.
And a lot of things that I do
credit my corporate experiencewith going through those
management and leadership coursesand knowing how people tick and
all of that.
I think a lot of people miss out
on that when you don't have thatkind of corporate experience.
100%.
There is something to be said
about systems.
I mean, you don't get that big
without pretty precise systems andprocesses and training and things
like that, right?Like, most small businesses don't
even know what an SOP is, muchless have built any SOPs, right?
(17:18):
And so, you know, when it comesdown to, you know, building a
business, you got to understandthat if you ever want to scale
beyond yourself, and again, a lotof loan officers just are
grinders, and they just want to doit all themselves.
That's okay.
But for the people that want to
grow a team, you need processesand systems and things like that,
right?And one thing I wanted to touch on
is, you've developed this Epic OSplatform.
Is it for brokers specifically?Is it for anybody?
(17:41):
Like what's that platform looklike?
Talk a little bit about that.
Right now it's just for and not
only just for brokers,specifically broker owners are the
primary users of the platform.
So it's basically like an ERP,
Energized Resource Planner formortgage brokers.
So I am tackling efficiencies andautomations for everything that
(18:03):
has nothing to do with loanorigination for running a
business.
Because you've got Arrive, you've
got LendingPad, you've got LoanCatcher with Black Knight.
I'm hearing rumblings of anothercompany about to release a POS,
LOS solution.
And then all those other POS
platforms out there.
I didn't want to get into the POS.
Encompass.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't even want to get into thePOS.
You know Encompass.
Yeah, yeah.
(18:23):
I We all know Encompass.
Yeah, I didn't want to get into
the POS, LOS game.
It's a crowded field.
There's a few people doing itvery, very well.
And I identified that there'sstill nothing really out there
that's helping somebody start andmaintain a mortgage brokerage and
run it really efficiently.
So is this from a commission
tracking perspective or is thislike a lot?
(18:43):
a lot?So actually commission calculation
and reporting was the first modulethat we released because I built
it for myself.
I really quickly scaled to about
40 something employees and I'mmanaging, you know, we're much
smaller now, but you know, Ireally quickly learned that, you
know, doing all that stuff onspreadsheets is not really
scalable.
So I developed software
specifically to handle that.
And then just over the, like the
last two years, I kind of had thataha moment of, you know, I'm
starting to see like some of'rekind of out on an island.
(19:05):
You know, there's nobody out thereto help them.
They've got all this extra work.
They just want to originate.
And when you do the numbers, ifyou can get to go to a good
company that pays solid comp, goodprocesses and all that, sometimes
it doesn't make sense to own abrokerage.
But for me, it's like, if youstarted a brokerage, you probably
(19:27):
did it for the same primaryreasons I did.
I think you have thatentrepreneurial mindset.
You want to own your own business.
So I just kind of felt bad on
those scenarios.
And I just also identified all the
pain points it is for me to run mybrokerage.
And I'm like, why don't I justdevelop a unified platform to
(19:47):
handle all of those things?So yeah, why don't like, I just
develop a unified platform tohandle all of those things?
So yeah, like I said, commissioncalculation and reporting is the
first thing we tackled.
And this is where loan officers
can currently log in and ops staffcan log into the platform and see
their commission reportsinstantly.
So for those of you workingretail, if you're familiar with
(20:08):
Compensate or other things likethat, it's very similar to that.
It's just obviously affordable formortgage brokers where those other
platforms are not.
The feature that we're about to
launch, we're kind of in finaltesting with an integration with
QuickBooks.
So if you're doing your books
properly, it's a pretty heavy liftas a mortgage broker because
you're getting that checker wirefrom the title company, but it's
(20:31):
usually combined with pass-throughexpense reimbursements for the
credit report, maybe an appraisal,maybe VOEs, that kind of thing.
If you're doing your booksproperly, you should be breaking
all of those out into thosedifferent categories.
And that's a lot of work, a lot ofdata entry, either on you or a
(20:58):
bookkeeper to do.
So we created a sync where we have
most of that information already.
You fill in a couple things and
click the sync button and boom, itpops right in QuickBooks as a
sales receipt.
So then it's really easy to do
your revenue reconciliation aswell.
We just started development on thedata analytics and visualization
(21:19):
as well.
So you'll be able to see all of
your performance numbers and, youknow, drill down to the yellow.
So the yellow will be able to login and see their own stuff.
Branch managers will be able tosee their whole branch.
And then, you know, company ownersobviously can see everything.
So everything you can think of,rankings, your KPIs, so where
you're tracking your company andindividual goals, how fast you are
(21:42):
at closing loans, geographicalheat maps.
Broker owners will appreciatethis.
When you do your new broker appsor renewals, you have to plug in
your volume numbers sometimes forlike the last two years.
And how many of them werecommercial?
How many of them were VA?Yeah, you'll be able to just log
into that's Oh, what I was goingto ask.
Yeah, you'll be able to just loginto my data analytics portal and
it's going to give you all thatinformation automatically from
(22:03):
your LOS.
So in the future, we're looking at
doing a corporate card withexpense management attached to it
too.
So like an app type of a solution.
So every LOS can get their card.
You can identify who it's for, you
know, that kind of thing.
And like have caps.
Yep.
also do like industry specific
rewards to you attach youradvantage credit bill to this card
(22:25):
i'm going to give you a 3x pointsor whatever it is there so that's
how it'll you know incentivizepeople to move away from amex log
into that's Oh, what I was yeahsome of those chase that's cool
man i'm thinking like i don't knowif you got anything to do with
like call reports and of thosekind of.
Yeah.
(22:46):
So for the actual call reports,
arrive and lending, Pat do areally good job of aggravating all
that data, exporting it as an XML.
But what there is, is the annual
MCR financial condition reportthat has to be filed that an LOS
is never going to have all thatdata.
So we'll pull from basically yourP&L from QuickBooks through that
(23:06):
integration, categorize it theway, you know, NMLS wants it.
And then the same concept, you canexport that XML and import it in
NMLS.
So, you know, the idea is that
you'll be able to file that in,you know, 15 minutes first.
I mean, I do it once a year.
Hours?
It takes me hours.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, especially if you're
running a big shop and stuff likethat, obviously, a single person,
(23:28):
you know, single person brokerage,it's hard.
Believe it or not.
I mean, yeah, bigger you get, the
more complicated your financialsget in terms of like categories
and all that.
But like, even when we were small,
it was pretty difficult to do it.
I see in the arrive bird all the
time, people are asking, doesarrive do the MCRFC?
No, it doesn't do that because itdoesn't have any of that data, nor
should it.
It's not an accounting software.
It's a POS, LOS.
(23:48):
Right, right.
Well, you're explaining exactlywhy, you know, brokers that
started their own brokers to starta business are like, hell no, I
don't want to do this, man.
I just want to originate, close
loans, you know, do the normalstuff.
I mean, you can operate a team,but everything else sucks.
I mean, it sounds like at leastfor someone like me, who is very
little process oriented and why Ihave a COO and an operations
(24:11):
person as my right hand woman isbecause I realized pretty quickly,
I just create chaos.
I mean, to be honest.
So yeah, I that's obviously thesoftware is designed to do for
those who do want to own abrokerage, want to be able to do
it more efficiently and easier andall that.
That's what the software isdesigned to do.
So anybody who does have thatentrepreneurial mindset can kind
of hit the ground running.
Nice.
That's pretty cool.
(24:32):
And obviously, I think there is
people out there that maybe theywould have even kept it if they
didn't feel like, you know,there's not the resources.
And, you know, unfortunately, likelike you said there isn't a ton of
resources i know there's been somepush with organizations in the
past to try to help with that to acertain degree some of them have
(24:53):
done a great job of creatingcommunity and people that lean on
and all of that right but i've yetto see like really super impactful
content obviously like you canhave all those training resources
out there, but there's still youneed software or some type of
process to make it efficient.
Like, it's very easy to say, go
create all this stuff to automateeverything.
But it's hundreds of thousands ofdollars to actually design all of
that stuff, because I guess youcan do a lot of it in Excel with
(25:15):
really fancy, you know, pivottables, formulas, all that kind of
stuff that I'm sure a lot ofbroker shops have figured out how
to do.
That's hundreds of hours.
That's hundreds of hours of time.
Exactly.
So there's just no easy way to doit.
And you can share resources, stufflike that.
But wouldn't it be easier just tosign up for software and spend a
little bit of money?And most of the lifting is just
(25:36):
done for you.
I agree.
It's something I mean, again,that's a lot of what goes along
with running a business that Ithink a lot of times, especially
loan officers that maybe haven'tthought about it from that
perspective, don't understandlike, you have to create processes
and systems.
I mean, you know, because if you
ever want to scale beyondyourself, and maybe one or two
people, you have to have writtendown processes, you have to have
specific, you know, automations inplace.
you're Otherwise, just havewritten down You processes.
(25:57):
have to have you specific,automations know, in place.
Otherwise, you're just going towork more hours.
And at a certain point, you'regoing to burn out.
Maybe you don't.
Maybe you're a unicorn.
There is some unicorns out therethat are really good at sales and
really good at process-orientedstuff.
But again, I think those peopleare unicorns.
They sure are.
And they're not typical, right?
I mean, you know, they're eithergoing to be typically like you,
(26:19):
Evan.
They're going to be very like
detail-oriented.
I can freaking structure it
backwards and forwards.
Or they're going to be like, I
don't even know how to run DU.
I don't even know how to do any of
that stuff.
But they can freaking make it rain
with sales, right?So there is that little hybrid
that is out there that does wellwith both of those things.
But that's not a typical human.
I mean, that's just not how humans
typically work.
So just have different
personalities.
So from that perspective, as
(26:42):
you're growing, I mean, you grewthe brokerage pretty quickly.
You've kind of pulled back alittle bit on the scale, which,
you know, it's probably a goodthing.
Sometimes, you know, bringing ontoo many people and people in the
wrong seat sucks.
But how do you manage that from
that perspective?Are you doing a lot of that?
Do you have someone on the teamthat sort of manages that?
(27:02):
What's that look like?Yeah, I have a and I have a good
amount of help that helps with alot of those time consuming tasks
for the bookkeeping payroll.
Obviously we cut down on the
payroll time significantly, butsomebody still got to go in there,
you know, actually run it inpayroll system and all that.
And so I have embedded payroll inmy platform as well.
Nice.
Yeah.
So I have a, like a right-handperson.
(27:22):
She helps me with a little bit ofeverything, state examinations
when we're going through those,all that.
And then we recently hired avirtual assistant out of the
Philippines.
And she's been great so far, too.
So it's a great resource.
A lot of places are doing it now.
You know, I'd love to hireeverybody stateside, but I'm
competing with these, you know,$200 a file broker shops out
there.
You know, so I got to make with
what thin margins I have.
Well, let's be honest, bro.
(27:43):
I mean, I know people like to hateon that.
But that's just the way the worldworks.
I mean, you know, that's how weget cheap Nike stuff, all the
goods and services we did.
People love to talk about bringing
everything stateside, but theydon't understand that everything
would probably quadruple in priceif that happened.
Yeah.
And I don't think they would be
very happy with everythingquadrupling in price.
But yeah, they think everybodyshould have a livable wage.
Like, okay, well, you can't haveboth things.
It's just not how economics works,unfortunately.
But I want to try to leave withsome sort of tangible tactic.
I know you're not activelyoriginating.
(28:04):
I know you said you're not thebest at marketing or sales.
But for whatever reason, you madesales, you built a business,
you've attracted people to workwith you.
So I am going to disagree.
I think maybe you're not good in
the traditional sense of likebullying sales.
I don't personally think thatthat's real sales.
In my opinion, sales is finding aproblem and providing a solution.
That is really what sales is.
Yep.
You don't have to convince someoneif they convince themselves, if
you present the right plan.
So talk a little bit about like in
(28:26):
this market, what are you seeingmaybe some of the people on your
team doing?Or what are you seeing maybe some
of the people on your team doing?Or what would you recommend to
maybe a new person or someonewho's maybe struggling in this
market to get some business rightnow?
I mean, it goes back to kind ofwhat the whole subject of our talk
was, is product knowledge.
If you're not an expert in what
you're selling, like in this kindof market, you have to
differentiate yourself.
And just being a really super
salesy type, I don't think isgoing to cut it in this market.
(28:49):
I guess, unless you're really,really, really good at talking and
networking and all of that kind ofstuff.
But to me, it always gets back toproduct knowledge at the end of
the day, when you can get on thephone and answer things without,
you know, looking up guidelines,whatever, you looking know, up
guidelines, whatever.
You know, I learned how to, if a
customer asked me a question, youknow, I didn't say, I don't know,
(29:11):
I'll get back to you.
I would kind of redirect the
conversation to something else.
And while they're talking, I'm
looking up the answer, you know,that kind of thing.
And then I can tell them on thefly just because I knew where to
go on the guidelines and all thattoo.
So I'll always recommend that likeour business is still far too
complicated and so many differentvariables that you can't just go
(29:33):
out there and sell, sell, sell.
Like you need to study.
And obviously the 20-hour classdoesn't teach you that.
No, it doesn't do anything.
I took that class.
So, you know, I don't rememberanything from that.
But I will say this.
I will say I tell this to this.
people all the A lot of timestime.
people come to brand new loanofficers us, are I don't remember
like, oh,, anything from but Iwill say that, I will say this,
this, I tell this to people allthe time.
(29:55):
A lot of times people come to us,brand new loan officers are like,
Oh, should I buy leads?I'm like, no, do not buy leads.
You probably shouldn't buy leadsfor at least a year, maybe two
years.
Like you have to get good at the
fundamentals first.
And unfortunately, something I
tell new people too, is you got togo out there and grind, man.
You got to go out and talk topeople.
You got to go out and shake hands.
You got to talk to everybody in
(30:16):
your phone book.
You just got to talk to people
because you don't know the productwell enough to buy leads because
that's two separate things.
It's easy to get people on the
phone.
What are you going to say when
you're on the phone?What do you say?
Exactly.
Exactly.
If you're good on the phone, theystart asking questions.
Right.
How do you answer that question
with knowledge i think consumersare really starting to get smart
to not be roped in you know thesurface level type of
conversations when they're dealingwith a mortgage you know there's
just so much information out therenowadays that they can kind of see
(30:37):
through that with a you need to bean expert you need to be an expert
and that's the truth i mean aboutanything right i remember some of
the posts i put about marketingback in 2017 and i'm like did i
really make that post is that areal post that i made about
marketing like that's just mebeing so salesy oh you should do
(30:59):
facebook ads like this is so greati didn't know anything about it i
really didn't know how to run adslike dude it's wild to look back
at some of those posts and be likeoh all right i was one of those i
was one of those guys that youhate evan i might be still one of
those guys that you hate but heythat you hate but hey we've come
full circle i intentionally do notaccept you know the friend
(31:19):
requests from a lot of thosemarketers we call marketing gurus
they like yeah or we call themwhatever yeah no you actually have
been in the weeds you'veoriginated loans you've been in a
like you know the business so likeobviously you have that knowledge
of what we go through asoriginators are on our side.
So yeah.
Yeah, glad man.
And you know, I just try to tellthe truth as much as possible.
People don't like it all the time.
(31:41):
But you know, like there is a
company out there saying 15 fundedloans in 90 days.
I'm like, well, I mean, unlessthese are like hot, hot referrals,
even referrals might not close in90 days.
Let's be honest in this market.
It's crazy.
So man, any parting words,anything that you want to leave
everybody with?I do.
If you listen to other podcasts,I've been, I guess on, I'm a
little repetitive on it, but Ithink it's always a great takeaway
to say to people is that when itcomes to entrepreneurship, owning
a business, or if you're listeningto this and you're a processor,
but you want to be an LO, butyou're afraid of taking that leap.
I always say that you're going toregret not doing it far more than
doing it and failing.
Who cares if you fail?
(32:02):
If you fail, you go pivot and youdo something else.
You'll always look back on yourlife later on and be like, why
didn't I try that?But if you do it, so that's kind
of what I've always lived my lifeby.
If I want to do something, I'mgoing to do it.
And I don't really care if I failor not.
Interestingly enough, man, I havean executive coach.
And one of the things he says isthat success is not a very good
teacher.
Failure is a much better teacher
(32:23):
than success.
And that was pretty cool.
I know that.
And I would say that I've learned
more about leadership and how torun a business and all of that
stuff from the people that areterrible at it than the people
that are good at it.
My good managers and all of that
were just more inspiring types ofpeople to me.
And I looked up to them and thatkind of thing.
But I wouldn't say that I learneda whole lot from them.
(32:43):
They were just there asinspiration for me.
But the people who in my careerthat I've seen have been terrible,
like you just learn how not to payRight.
I agree.
I mean, the same thing I've
learned with, you know, I bought alot of programs and courses and
things like that over the years.
And some of them were great and
some of them were terrible.
But I learned something from every
single one because the truth is Ilearned what not to do as a
business owner and I learned whatto do from the good ones but again
like you said a lot of it camefrom the bad ones learning all
(33:06):
right well that's a terribleclient experience i don't want
that to ever happen so it's aninteresting thing there so real
quick if someone wanted to learn alittle bit more about epic epic os
where can they go find it connectwith you online man what's the
best way to find you yeah so i'mreally active on facebook so
obviously you can search my namei'll probably show it right up
(33:28):
because probably have mutualfriends but i think it's
facebook.com slash e wade 88 andthen epic os.com that's e p o c h
o s.com if you're a broker ownerand you're you know interested in
talking more about making yourbusiness more efficient you can
book a personalized demo with meon there.
I'm not pre-recorded or anything.
I'm still doing them one-on-one
because I like learning from...
Still grinding.
Well, I like learning frombrokerages and what their
particular pain points are.
And it really helps me shape the
(33:49):
direction of development we'regoing into of what they most want.
So you can't really do that fromjust pushing you know, pushing out
a little video or something andshow people the system, you know,
so we'll get to that point, youknow, down the road.
But right now I like listening andlearning.
is smart, man.
I mean, getting a pulse on what's
going on in the real world ispretty important.
(34:09):
Honestly, I'm actually going to betaking some sales calls for the
next probably 30, 60 days, justbecause I'm like, man, I just want
to see what's going on in themarket.
How are people feeling all thatkind of stuff.
And I'd like to do that probablyonce a year and just get back on
the calls.
Because it does really give you a
good understanding of what arepeople feeling?
What's their energy like and justseeing what it looks like from
other people on my team'sperspective.
(34:30):
So I love that, man.
For me, big takeaways from today
is creating systems and processesaround what you do.
Obviously, we talked a lot aboutyour platform.
But you know, even if you don'tuse that platform, understanding
that if you do want to grow, ifyou do want to scale, you need to
have processes and systems inorder to grow.
Otherwise you're just going to besort of all over the place, man.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
(34:51):
And for, if you are listening tothis and you are looking for some
help on flipping the status quo onreal estate agents, go to flip the
status quo.com.
Thank you so much for listening.
Have a great day.
it you for tuning into the loans
on demand podcast on loans ondemand podcast.com.
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