May 9, 2024 • 44 mins
Today, we're joined by Ronda Hickey. Ronda is a Senior Mortgage Banker at Flat Branch Home Loans from Newton County, Missouri, who's been in the mortgage industry since 2005. Ronda, an industry unicorn who is great at underwriting and also a master of sales, has a yearly personal production range between 450-500 loans, while also managing a team and raising 5 kids.
Ronda is here to discuss: → How she manages her time in her business, keeps detailed notes on clients, and has boundaries for her personal life. → Value adds you can give to Realtors, niching your referral ask, and where to find business and gain market share. → How overwhelming your client with too much information can lose you deals, and why it's important to say "how", not "no".
Flat Branch Home Loans Website: www.fbhl.com
Ronda Hickey's Email: rhickey@fbhl.com
Ronda Hickey's Facebook: @RondaHickey
Ronda Hickey's LinkedIn: @RondaHickey
Learn more about the Direct to Consumer LO Accelerator here.
Loans On Demand Website: www.loansondemand.io
Loans On Demand YouTube: @LoansOnDemand
Loans On Demand Instagram: @loansondemand
Luke Shankula's Facebook: @LukeShankula
Luke Shankula's LinkedIn: @LukeShankula
Luke Shankula's Instagram: @lukeshankula
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
podcast, the show where we flipthe real estate status quo on its
head and put loan officers intothe driver's seat.
We give you all the tools,strategies, resources, and mindset
needed to modernize your mortgagebusiness and thrive.
My name is Luke Shankula, aka LongForm Luke, and this is the Loans
On Demand podcast.
going on?
Welcome to the Loans on a ManPodcast, the show where we help
(00:25):
loan officers flip the status quoon real estate agents and put loan
officers in the driver's seat.
And I'm excited because today we
have Rhonda Hickey.
She is a total badass and she is a
mortgage banker.
She closes almost 500 units a
year, has five kids.
I don't really know how she does
this.
She's married.
Now, again, this is wild.
So thank you so much for being
here.
(00:45):
Welcome to the show.
Yeah, you bet.
for having me.
Well, so give us a littlebackground.
Who are you?What got you into the industry?
And what keeps you in this crazyindustry?
I actually started in mortgagesbefore the mortgage crisis of
2008.
So I started in 2005.
I sold cars for Honda Auto CenterBellevue in Washington State.
I was Rhonda Honda.
And I sold a car to a lady who was
(01:06):
a private mortgage banker.
And she said, you need to come do
what I do.
And looking back at my life at
that point, it was a compilationof a lot of different things that
I felt God prepared me for.
I had worked a job at a university
that involved a lot of liketranscript evaluating.
So I had to look at transfercredits to see does this match
this class that we have.
(01:26):
And so I feel like, you know, in
mortgage lending, I do so many ofthe things that I used to do then.
And I think most of my job issales.
So I find that it's a really bigblend of sales, and a very detail
oriented environment.
And so it was like the perfect job
for me.
And so I feel super blessed for
selling that Honda CR-V to SusanStrine, wherever she may be these
(01:47):
days.
But when I look back, that's kind
of how I got into this.
Why stay stay days I ask myself
that question.
This job is, I think, 10 out of 10
on the level of I think, when Ifeel at my production, that's 30
to 40 people in process constantlyasking questions and texts all day
and night and just theaccessibility of being available,
(02:08):
but setting like appropriateboundaries.
Sure.
Sometimes I definitely question
why I do this, but it really comesdown to this is a lucrative
industry.
And I feel so blessed to be able
to do what I do every day, forsure.
sure.
And that's awesome.
And if you haven't listened to theepisode, we also have had Sam
Hickey on the show, who isRhonda's husband, and he runs a
(02:28):
team as well.
So they're both crazy.
They're both running bigbusinesses doing crazy amounts of
volume.
And somehow they still have time
to hang out and do things and allthat fun stuff and have five So I
don't kids.
know out and do things and all
that fun stuff and have five kids.
So I don't know how they do it,
but that's why she's on the showto share all the secrets of what
she does.
So I'm excited to dive in today.
On average, I mean, you're closing450 to 500 units a year.
What's your superpower?What sort of makes you sort of run
(02:50):
at those levels, right?we do have teams at our company.
Those are specifically my units.
Like that's my personal production
in that mix.
I'm actually taking those loan
applications, processing thoseloan applications and getting them
through the process.
So my team does close more than
that.
And as far as units go, but I feel
like in that, that is what is mysuperpower.
(03:11):
It's not only actually being ableto understand loan guidelines,
which I am a very big opponent of.
Essentially, I think that people
need to know their craft.
And so understanding loan program
guidelines, the different toolsavailable, AUS, knowing when to
run and how to try all the littledifferent tricks, it increases my
percentage of yes.
Like how often do I get to say yes
compared to my competition is mysuperpower.
(03:33):
And also my ability to sell whythat is different to a realtor.
I feel like my confidence level ofexplaining to a realtor, like, let
me be the best free assistantyou'll ever have.
Like I'm going to not only keepyou informed through the process,
I'm going to say yes to your leadsmore often.
So that business that you're goingout and working hard and paying a
(03:54):
lot of money to get like, let megive you better returns on that
business.
So I feel like that's my combined
superpower is that lend of notonly loving the op side of a loan,
but also being really good at thesales side too.
Sure.
And that's what we like to call
unicorns, people that arelistening to this.
Most people can do one of thosetwo things well, right?
They're either really good atstructuring files and doing all
that sort of nitty gritty workwith the actual loan.
(04:16):
And the other side of that is thesales side.
And again, I mean, I think wetalked about this pre going on
live, but you know, a lot of loanofficers have ADHD, you know,
they're sort of like, not detailoriented people, and they're out
there shaking hands, get somebabies, all that fun stuff.
And a lot of times the detailssort of fall by the wayside, or
they need to find someone thatcan, you know, sort of fill that
role.
And so if you feel like you don't
(04:36):
have a lot of those skills on bothsides, then maybe just finding
someone that has maybe more of anoperational background or the
opposite side, if you're maybebetter at the operational, finding
someone that's, you know, maybebetter at making it rain.
But from that perspective, I mean,you have all these deals in
process.
How do you manage your time?
I mean, ultimately that's a lot oftransactions for one single person
to And do.
like you I said, you mean, have
all these deals in process.
How do you manage your time?
I mean, ultimately, that's a lotof transactions for one single
(04:58):
person to And do.
like you I said, mean, this is
personal production.
This isn't like, I'm putting all
my team's production under my NMLSnumber, like you're actually doing
these deals.
So how do you manage your time?
Like, what does that look like?And then also boundaries, right?
I mean, how do you set boundariesaround that sort of crazy volume?
I mean, I'm sure people want toreach out to you at crazy times,
but you got to cut it off at somepoint.
Yeah, and I feel like I do it alittle bit organically, like how I
manage my day.
I do not time block or anything
fancy like that.
I honestly rarely even use my
Outlook calendar.
So most of what I'm doing is I'm
(05:20):
working off a list throughout theday.
And then I use that list toreprioritize things.
Like I know that I could have fivethings to do, but each of them
have a different level of whenthey need to be done first.
So I'm somebody that's really goodat going out of order throughout
my day based on what I feel is thehighest priority, but also still
always closing all the opencircles.
Like I need to make sure thateverybody gets back to.
So it's obviously a mixture.
It's a blend of knowing who I need
(05:41):
to call back, who I need to textback, who I need to email back,
and then kind of keeping thatorder throughout the day.
I mean, everybody could do thatsome sort of like whatever
organization works best for them.
One thing that I will never get
rid of, no matter where I work, aslong as I'm in this job, is I do
utilize Trello, which is not anindustry thing, but it works so
well.
It's extremely intuitive.
It's super fast to train peopleon.
(06:02):
But essentially, like each client,I know everything about anything
we've ever done on them, how tocontact them.
It's my follow up and everything.
So it's really become the brain of
our operation.
If I for some reason, I'm out of
the office, it allows any of ourloan support to just pop in and
know what we were working on.
Why did we exclude those five
debts?Or what was their job history?
Or how do we calculate the income?So it's essentially a place that
(06:24):
we can put those notes in that'snot a CRM.
And it's also, it's ours, meaningno matter where we go, we can
still keep that.
And we're also able to like,
doesn't matter if I'm at Walmart,and it's on a Saturday, a client
reaches out to me like, hey, wefound the perfect house, can we go
up to 300?I pull up Trello on my phone.
Like, yeah, you can.
Awesome.
I'll send you an updated prequalletter.
(06:45):
I'm not reliant on having to be inhere and then pull up the file and
all those different things.
I have my brain on demand, able to
just pull it up and kind of seewhat's going we those love it.
You know, Trello for anybody who'slistening to this is like a
project management platform.
There's some others out there as
well that are similar to Trello.
What I do like about Trello, like
you mentioned, is there's a lot ofthese platforms that try to do
(07:06):
everything right.
They're just over complicated, you
know, have a lot of moving parts.
You can switch from Kanban view to
this other view to this otherview.
And for someone that may be not besuper technical, it causes a lot
of confusion and overwhelm.
And so I do like Trello from the
perspective of it's very simple touse for the most part, at least.
I mean, it's been a little bitsince I've been in Trello, but
it's a in Trello, but it's fairlyeasy to use.
(07:27):
And it's totally like, it's veryintuitive.
I mean, I feel like I could teachmy mom how to use it.
You know, like it's easy foranybody to use it.
And that intuitive part of itwhere you'd be like, I think I
should be able to do this.
And it just does that.
So it is instrumental in mybusiness personally.
And it's free.
So yeah.
Yeah.
it's free.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so you're using the freeversion.
You're not the paid upgrades.
We have 10 plus people on it.
We do pay for per user.
(07:49):
But if somebody is like a 1, 2, 3,
4, 5, 6, 10 person or less, it isfree.
on Nice.
So Yeah.
those are those premium sort ofmodels where you get you in, 10
can, person or it less, is free.
Nice.
So Yeah.
those are those freemium sort of
models where like, you know, youget in, you can use a lot of the
features for free.
And then some of the features you
may have to pay for, even then Idon't think it's super expensive,
right?It's, you know, maybe 20, 30 bucks
(08:10):
a seat or something.
So yeah, that's amazing.
And from that perspective, like,are you using it almost like a
pipeline type of flow, like aKanban view where you're kind of
dragging them from stage to stage,just like a basic overview of how
that's sort of set up.
Yeah.
So there's like a little bubblethat's called a card and it
represents that specific client.
So all their contact information
and any notes are represented inthere.
And then for my own personalbusiness, we do use lists.
So my daily do would be anything Ineed to work on that day.
And then I have a waiting room,which is where I've usually
(08:31):
reached out to the client and needsomething else to finish on my
pre-qualification.
Okay.
And then we also have like monthlyfollow-up lists where we're like,
Hey, I pre-qualified thiscustomer.
I want to check in with them nextmonth.
I'm not somebody who checks on myclients frequently because there's
just not enough time in the dayfor that.
Like I want to stay in touch withthem enough that they don't forget
my name, but I'm not calling themevery couple of days.
Like, did you find a house yet?Like that's not happening.
(08:53):
And so we move them into monthlyfollow-up lists or if they have
like a bankruptcy waiting period,and I know that it's not going to
be up until next November, I movethem to a next October list so
that I can check in with them nextOctober.
And once we get a contract, itgoes to a new loan assistance
board, which is where they lockit.
They set it up for disclosures,their jobs to have the file, the
processing within three days ofdisclosing the loan.
And we do have a feature calledButler Setup, which it
(09:15):
automatically moves that client'scard.
They don't have to actually clickit and move it.
It moves itself.
If it's not in processing within
three days, they are kind of onhigh alert that that's a priority
list.
And then from there, it goes to
the loan processor where the loanprocessor moves it through their
own list.
Like, okay, it's been
underwritten.
Okay.
It's been conditionally approved,submitted to RD, whatever those
things I a house It's it.
That's awesome.
You talk about process.
I mean, that's important to have
some sort of process that you canfollow because ultimately, I mean,
(09:37):
you say you don't time block,which is crazy to me, but I'm also
ADHD.
So, you know, if I don't time
block, I won't get anything done.
That's cool that you have this
process and that you systemize itto the point where it works for
you.
Because I think that's important.
So many people are like, what'sthe best CRM?
What's the best process?It's like, well, the truth is, you
can do your business about amillion different ways and
(09:58):
ultimately comes down to whatworks for you.
What are you going to beconsistent with?
I mean, people talk about the CRMthing, right?
Oh, what's the best CRM?Well, the best CRM, I know it's
cliche, but the best CRM is theone you use.
Like, what are you using to manageyour pipeline?
And then from that perspective,like, do you set up rots, like
where there's reminders ifsomething happens after a certain
amount of period?Or like, talk about like, hey, if
they have a bankruptcy, does thatpop up as a reminder for you?
(10:20):
Or you just know, hey, here's myreminders.
I just know every single day I'mgoing to check in on that or
whatever.
have something that on a very
specific day, I want to re-pullcredit, or I know that there's a
specific time that I need to doit.
Honestly, normally I just email myloan assistant and be like, remind
me on this day that I need to dothis, right?
Like that's probably what Inormally do.
But as far as like, I know that Iwant to follow up with all those
clients in October of 2024, theygo in that list.
(10:40):
And then that month, one of theloan assistants reaches out to
every one of those clients going,Hey, it looks like we wanted to
recheck in with your credit thismonth.
Is it okay if we give it anothercredit pool?
Or maybe they were pre-qualifiedin shopping and we're just a month
out.
Like, hey, how are things going?
Are there any questions we cananswer?
But the loan assistant reads thosenotes in that client's card to
determine like, what am I reachingout to them for?
Like, what was the purpose of it?Were they a credit improvement
(11:01):
plan or were they pre-qualified inshopping?
And then also from there, theymake their notes, like how did
they reach out?Did they reach out by text, call
or email so that we know the nexttime we reach out, maybe we want
to reach out a different way, likeif they didn't they way, we're not
like, oh, we email them every timeand they never respond.
Maybe they don't check their way,we're not up the phone, give them
a phone call.
So we just try to like reach out
the most effective way possible toget the best return on it.
(11:23):
we just Well, I love that because,you know, it's funny.
That's what I find people do a lotis they'll do something.
Well, I sent an email and I calledthem.
Did they respond?Yeah.
They didn't.
Then keep calling and emailing or
texting or whatever, right?Like just keep trying things
because like I think people giveup too easily on stuff.
And obviously you don't chasepeople forever, but there is a
certain level of justunderstanding that people are
busy.
are busy.
Like put the wife on there or putthe husband on.
Right.
(11:43):
Right.
Next thing you know, now you justfound the main point of contact.
And honestly, I think some peopleget a little scared to reach out.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Yes.
So I'm a big fan of making sure
that essentially, I want to reachout in the way that's going to get
me the best return for thatclient.
yeah.
And that's what we talked about a
lot too, is, you know, like youneed to almost use all the mediums
just to figure out what worksbest.
Because if someone responds to atext, use text message, because
(12:05):
that's clearly their preferredmedium.
If someone responds to an email,send them an email because that's
probably their preferred method.
If they call you, call them.
more thing about Trello, weliterally have labels on our
Trello cards that might say, hey,this person's a day sleeper.
I don't want to be callingsomebody who was up all night and,
you know, two o'clock in theafternoon.
So we do label some of thosethings so we know the best time to
also reach the client.
And it doesn't matter if I'm
(12:26):
talking to that client today orsix months from now, when you
would have well forgot them, Ipull up that client's card and I
can see this person's a talker.
I'm going to be on the phone for
an hour if I call them.
I'm going to send them a text.
You know what I mean?Like, so we're able to kind of
track what I mean?Like, so we're able to kind of
track them.
And that's huge from a trust
building perspective too, becauselike, if you talk to someone,
(12:48):
there's dogs barking in thebackground or something like that,
or there's kids running around inthe background or something like
that, like bringing that up onthat next conversation is a
powerful trust building tool oflike, hey, like, you know, I
remember last time you had a dogbarking in the background.
How's the dog doing?Right.
Like, you know, whatever.
Like, and so, you know, those are
ways to build trust.
We talk about taking notes pretty
consistently because the otherthing too, is especially for
(13:08):
someone like you, who's doing thismany transactions, but anyone
that's doing two, three, four,five transactions a month, you
start to get a little bit of thatblindness.
Cause if you're touching 10, 20files every single month or even
10 files every single month, it'slike everybody runs into each
other.
And funny, because I tell my sales
guys, how do you guys not rememberthese people?
You guys have been talking tothese people.
And then I take a bunch of salescalls.
Oh, okay.
I get it.
It's just they all run together.
They're just blending together.
So having notes is a super hugeway of building trust.
(13:29):
You use a sales tool though, andnot to cut you off, but we use it
with our realtors.
So every single client gets
labeled with where did thatreferral source come from?
And let's say that client closeson their new house.
They love it.
And two years from now, they refer
their sister to me.
Guess what we're looking up?
Who referred the other person,reconnecting them back to that
original referral partner.
And so part of our notes is that
structure of just even saying,okay, this one came from this
friend.
That friend came from this
realtor.
Let's reconnect all those people
so that it's more money in ourrealtor's pocket down the so Yeah,
(13:50):
and that's huge.
One of the biggest things that I
talk about from a salesperspective with realtors is they
typically want one of two things.
They want someone who knows the
fundamentals, which we talkedabout at the beginning.
You need to know the fundamentals.
You need to close on time.
You need to do all those things.
That's important.
You need to know your craft.
But then what they really want is,
can you save them time on thetransaction or can you make them
money?And so being able to do those
(14:11):
things, being able to refer peopleback to them, being able to put
money in their pockets, I mean,those people are going to be
pretty loyal if you're able to putmoney in their pockets and you can
close on time and you can do allthe other things that everybody
likes to talk about.
Right.
So let's talk a little bit aboutwhat the value prop is, right?
I mean, you don't close 470transactions on accident.
(14:31):
What's sort of the approach?I mean, you said that you get a
lot of your business from pastclients, but then I'm assuming you
also have a significant amount ofbusiness that comes from realtors.
What's sort of the pitch or thevalue prop that you bring to
realtors as you're looking, maybegoing after new ones or continue
to build relationships with yourones?
If you looked at my referralsource of like how many loans I
closed last month or something,you're going to see probably 20%
of those are past clientreferrals.
(14:51):
So either the past clientthemselves is coming back for a
new loan, or they're sending a Andfeel like I keep that business
generated by way of oftenfriending my clients on Facebook.
I do use Facebook as a platform toget new business in the sense of I
want them to be somebody that theyconsider me to be a friend or
somebody more than just the personthat did their loan.
So we do develop that kinship, youknow, on Facebook.
Past that, the mix is veryblended.
It's mostly realtors, but it mightbe one referral from that realtor
or maybe two in a given month.
It's not like, oh, yeah, I've got
(15:12):
this real like big hitter, andthey send me all this business.
It's more market share, it's morereferral partners sending me that
one deal every couple of months.
Great.
I love that one deal every coupleof months.
So I learned this early in mybusiness, niching out a spot for
yourself.
I have one agent, they don't send
me all their business.
That's okay.
But they do send me every VA loan.
Why?
Because I told them early on, Isaid, I'm a VA specialist.
I know VA loans in and out.
If you don't send me any other
business, if all you do is send meyour VA loans, like you're going
(15:35):
to love my process for this.
So that's literally all she sends
me is the VA loan.
She knows I do a great job.
She could send me the other ones,but she already has somebody that
she works with that she reallylikes.
It gives her like a way to referme business without feeling like
she's kind of making a slight toher other I I love that
(15:56):
opportunity.
My team also is the preferred
lender for a builder.
I don't personally sit on site
anymore.
I do a little bit on like a
rotation or if you know they needcoverage, somebody's missing a day
or something.
So I'd say most of that business
does go to my team and it doesn'tfilter through me, but maybe 2030
units a year, probably say 20 ayear right now still do come from
(16:18):
that builder relationship, whichit's a really big builder.
So, you know, we're blessed to dothat.
So that might seem like a lot ofunits.
It is, but it's still prettysporadic for me these days.
So if I was not in business growthmode, I do occasionally I do
little nudges, I'll text a realtoror stuff like that, doing that
many loans, like I'm not going tomy closing, I'm in the office
(16:39):
grinding out loans all the time.
So there's an amount of if I had
more time, and I was looking togrow my business, or I put
somebody in this spot to grind,but I enjoy it too much.
Like I enjoy making the loanshappen too much to just really
just say I'd want to do somethingelse.
So I would say that's where Iwould be setting up appointments,
doing more first time homebuyerclasses, like I would do those
things that I felt like reallybuilt my business up at the
(16:59):
beginning is making connectionswith Yeah.
So that's some of the stuff youdid at the beginning was you said
you did like homebuyer classes andthings like that.
Like, I mean, I guess we can goback a little bit and you know,
understand what was it that builtthe business in the first place?
Because doing 500 units byyourself is wild to me.
But going beyond that is prettyimpossible for most people.
So what was it that you would sayattracted so many of these agents
and people to work with Was itjust?
(17:21):
Yeah, I do really feel like it isa very specific thing.
So I moved from Seattle,Washington to Joplin, Missouri in
2010.
And doing loans in Seattle versus
doing loans in Joplin at that timewas like, everybody was your
competition in Washington.
Everybody wanted a cut of your
business.
It was very feisty.
You had to be like veryresponsive, accessible all hours
of the day and night on theweekends.
Joplin, Missouri was a differentpace.
It was predominantly banks, nomortgage just?
(17:42):
we'll get you a pre-qual in threedays, never on night, never on the
weekend.
So when I came to Joplin, it kind
of like turned the table over andpeople are like, wait, what?
She goes super fast.
She's really accurate.
She's responsive.
She wants to like help us do all
these events.
Like it was just a different
speed.
Now, all my competition in Joplin
is like that now.
Everybody has that same vibe, but
(18:02):
it definitely was like, that wasthe turning point of, they didn't
really know how to, you know, dothat.
And so that's why I probably gotmost of my business at the
beginning was just reallycreative, like solution-based
financing.
Like I would just really creative,
like solution based financing.
Like I would always tell
everybody, like, I don't say no toa client.
I say, how, how are we going to dothis?
You want to buy a house?Let's figure out how.
Right.
So even just some of those like
(18:23):
little word tracks with realtors,I think really endeared them to my
process that I'm there to helpthem close more loans.
And also I became kind of like the911, like call Rhonda, this deal
is falling apart.
She can fix it.
I'm definitely a loan fixer.
Somebody else says no, that they
said yes to either.
I'm going to come in and be like,
yeah, this probably shouldn't havebeen a yes then it's going to need
(18:43):
this level of work.
It's going to take this long.
Or we come in and be like, I don'tknow what they're thinking.
This file works this way.
And we just restructure it or we
keep it the way it was.
And we close it and we close it
fast and efficient.
So I just feel like we've created
(19:03):
such a strong reputation builtaround doing a really good job,
but being really fast with ourprocess too.
I I love it.
And I think even just that concept
of like never know, right?There's a pervasive attitude in
the mortgage industry,unfortunately.
And for anybody who's listening tothis, it's probably not but maybe
you, it I don't is.
But know.
people tend to throw prospects inthe mortgage industry,
unfortunately, and for anybodywho's listening to it's this,
(19:25):
probably not but maybe you, it Idon't is, know.
But people tend to throw prospectsin the trash if they're not like
ready to buy.
They call them tire kickers, they
whatever, like, you know, likethese are human beings that are
looking to buy a home.
Are they ready to buy now?
Maybe, maybe not, right?Maybe you can restrict the file
and get them in, but they're stillhuman.
They still deserve respect.
(19:45):
And if you put them on a plan, not
every single person is probablygoing to complete your plan, but I
don't know.
I think there's a massive missed
opportunity that loan officers aremissing out on because they're
still like, Oh, I want thisbusiness.
They got to be ready to buy in thenext 90 days.
And like all that kind of stuff islike, okay, well, what does a
paper buyers do?Like you're a commodity.
They're looking for the lowestrate.
(20:05):
They're looking for the best this,like the race to the bottom, in my
opinion, for that sort ofbusiness, not saying that you
shouldn't take that businessbecause you obviously should take
that business too, but what makesyou stand out?
And I think so many people are socaught up in this.
Well, you know, I need thebusiness now.
And it's like, no, like part ofthis is like, you have to learn
how to nurture people, show up, bea leader and tell them what they
need to do to afford to buy ahouse.
And people seem to not really takethat approach still, even to this
(20:27):
day, I do believe, which is whyyou're still probably getting tons
of business just from being theloan fixer.
I don't want to be that person.
Why not?
You're closing two loans a month.
they also gives other opportunity.
Like I can't tell you how manyreferrals I've got from people who
I didn't get to say yes to rightthen.
And they still refer their friendsand we still close loans for their
friends.
Maybe we didn't get to close loan
for that person, but it was stillan opportunity to show somebody
how much we do care so that whenthey see it, like, oh, you're
(20:50):
buying a house, you've got to callthis person.
And so we get a lot of referralsfrom people we didn't even do
loans for, but we can see we did acredit improvement plan or we
coached them on self employedincome, some aspect of the loan
that we took the time thatsomebody maybe else didn't take.
Right now, granted, we don't haveto do tons of time.
Like somebody has to be investedin their own success.
Of course, of course, of course.
But we're going to follow it
through as long as that client'smoving in the right direction with
(21:13):
us.
We're going to still keep working
on it and just keep loving onthem, keep helping them.
Like you say, they're real people.
So that's definitely a very active
part of our process.
But I think it's in some ways
refreshing, like what you'resaying.
A lot of the people that reach outto me are like, well, we applied
with this other lender, but wedidn't hear back.
Guess what?They were a credit action plan,
you know?Well, that's the problem is like,
again, they like this person's notready to buy right now.
So I'm just, I'm not going to getan application.
(21:35):
I'm not going to do like, and somany people are like, you know,
they won't do a verbal app andsort of move them through that
process.
You know, little things like that.
Well, you don't qualify right now.
That sucks.
Yeah.
And you know, it's funny how many
people I've interviewed on thispodcast that say, the reason I got
into this industry was because Ihad such a terrible experience
working with the loan officer thatfirst started.
He didn't know.
They didn't know this.
They didn't know this.
They didn't know this.
(21:55):
And they told me I couldn't buy orwhatever.
And it's like, I mean, it's greatthat they got into the industry
and are actively trying to changethat.
And I do believe there is a lot ofreally, really good loan officers
out there that take a similarapproach.
But unfortunately, there's a largemajority of people that are
unwilling to understand that thebuyer's journey is not 30 to 90
days like you think it is becauseyou get a buyer that's ready to be
pre-approved and ready to be incontract today from your referral
partner.
That's just not how the cube you
(22:15):
just not how the cube is.
And most of them are going to
spend in this market.
Ours is still super active.
But speaking to the nature of whatI still made me successful is
there are other communities outthere that are still bank driven
that maybe don't have that energylevel.
And if you can do loans anywhere,or you can do loans in any city in
your state or whatever, find adifferent community where it's not
a feeding frenzy.
Like now my community is a feeding
(22:35):
frenzy.
There's all these really great
loan officers doing fast thingswith innovative new products.
Like, fine, pick another ruraltown or another thing here or
there and you go be the mortgageexpert for that town.
And so I just feel like that's theother way I would kind of grow
that is I'd pick a place.
I'd pick a place that was
predominantly bank.
I would go in and be fast and
efficient and amazing.
And I would earn those realtors
business in that community just bydoing it at a different pace.
all That's awesome.
Yeah, that's great advice.
(22:56):
And it was just kind of going backto doing right by people.
I mean, a lot of thismisconception around like, well,
if they don't qualify, theirfriends and family aren't going to
qualify either.
And it's like, I think that's a
total lie.
I mean, if these people are
actively looking to buy, I mean,yeah, like you may get someone
that's total.
I mean, I don't want to say trash,
but you might get someone that'slike, they're never going to buy
and they're going to be a waste ofyour time.
And there are going to be peoplelike that.
(23:17):
But I think if you view it fromthe lens of everybody's like that,
anybody who's not ready to buy inthe next 90 days is that person.
I think you're missing out onmassive opportunities because the
truth is the consumer knowsnothing about the mortgage
process.
And this is coming from someone
who bought a house in 2015.
I worked for a mortgage company.
I thought I needed 20% down.
I thought I needed like these
things.
I thought I didn't make enough
income.
I thought all these things that
were completely false and I couldhave bought probably three or four
(23:39):
years earlier.
And I regretted it.
I mean, to a certain extent, Idon't like fully regret it, but I
regret like not being informedenough.
And that is the average consumer.
And I think loan officers for a
lot of times don't understand thisgap knowledge or curse of
knowledge, right?Like you think that everybody
knows all these things about themortgage transaction.
Like they probably don't knowthere's a USDA program out there
(23:59):
that gets you 0% down.
They might know about the VA.
Maybe they don't.
Maybe they don't know about the
Home Ready Home Possible programs.
Maybe they don't know about the
three and a half FHAs, right?Like who knows, right?
Maybe they don't know about thethree and a half FHAs, right?
Like who knows, right?Maybe they don't know about the
down payment assistance available,you know, in their zip code, but
that's up to you as a loan officerto explain to them.
(24:21):
And so from that perspective, whatdoes the sales process look like
when you do receive referrals?So I usually try to get the app no
matter what, because I don't needto be confusing them talking about
all the different loan programs,because I usually tell people
there's usually one really goodloan option for you.
If you are awesome credit score,conventional buyer, putting 20%
down, guess what?That's probably the best loan type
for you.
We don't need to talk about FHAs
or RDs.
You don't fit, right?
You're too set in this specificway.
So I usually just say, let's justget your information.
(24:42):
I'm going to go in and look atevery possible loan type for you.
Then I'll call back and we'll talkabout what the best options are.
Some clients only have one goodoption.
Some people have lots of options.
And when I call those clients, I'm
like, hey, good news is we havelots of options, but we don't know
what house you're going to buyyet.
So we kind of need to startfilling in those different things
that we don't know.
And then once we do, it's going to
be really clear which loan weshould pay.
Why?Because if they go out and they
find a home that's not in greatcondition, and they were eligible
(25:04):
for a conventional loan, guesswhat?
That's now the only loan typethat's probably the right fit when
we have all these otherpossibilities.
So I usually try to not overeducate the clients.
Some of my clients want to be overeducated.
I'm going to over educate the onesthat want to be over educated.
Everybody doesn't get the sameexperience.
So just enough that I can sellthem on that.
And they want to know that I'vealready told them like, Hey, I
looked at every possible loantype.
I figured out which one is thebest.
(25:25):
This one's the best for you.
And I also don't usually talk to
clients about rate unless theywant to talk about rate.
I'm usually like, Hey, send meover your contract.
We'll get you going.
We lock the loan.
We send them the loan disclosures,get them moving along their way.
So I also don't try to bring upthings that are going to cause
them to feel like, oh, she'stalking to me about this.
Now I maybe need to go do researchon it.
So I'm trying to not bring upthings that might potentially
start to overwhelm them, or takethem down a different direction.
Like don't lose business to yourown process.
(25:46):
And what I mean by that is, if youtake too long to let somebody know
you're working on something, youshould always be acknowledging
people in a pretty quick way.
Even if it's just to say, hey, I
wanted to let you know that I'mworking on this right now.
I'm going to get back with you ina couple of hours.
So I've set their expectation andthen I need to meet that
expectation.
But right now, trigger leads is
such a huge thing.
So if I'm sending them a loan
(26:08):
application link or I'm taking aloan application on the phone,
everybody gets to hear from me.
Heads up, by the way, the credit
bureau sell your information toother lenders.
During this time, don't answercalls from numbers you don't
recognize unless you have to.
Don't give your information over
the phone to anyone else.
I You So I have So I'm So Clients
are like, oh my gosh, thank you somuch.
I applied with a different lenderand I got called 80 times in the
(26:29):
first 30 minutes.
Like, I'm just letting them know
to expect it so they know how tohandle it.
So I lose less business just byhaving that conversation expect So
they know how to handle it.
So I lose it.
less business just by having thatconversation up front and telling
them it's going to happen.
how them it's going to happen.
Guys, this was fire right here.
This was a massive, massive value
bomb because here's the truth.
Bone officers love to call
themselves educators.
They love to call themselves
advisors.
All they're doing is they're
(26:50):
confusing the crap out of peopleand they're losing sales because
they think what the consumer needsis more education.
And yes, they need to be educated,but they don't really need to be
educated on the first call.
Let's be honest.
What they need is they need aleader that show up, tell them
what needs to happen.
Again, you don't know anything.
You can't educate anybody onanything because you haven't
identified the problem andprovided the solution yet because
you don't have all the data yet.
(27:11):
And so you got to understand
what's the data, what's theproblem, what's the thing that
they want to what's do, the thingthey want to accomplish, they want
to buy home, obviously.
But as you mentioned, we don't
know if it's gonna be FHA, VA,conventional USDA, down payment
assistance, like we don't knowwhat it is.
So we have to understand thesituation, get their documents,
pull credit, figure out what thatlooks like.
Okay, now we know now we can startto educate them on some of these
different products.
But I find a lot of times people
(27:33):
want to hide.
Let's be honest.
I think they want to hide behindthis.
I'm educating people.
And it's almost a little bit
cowardly because the truth is youare the one that does all these
transactions.
As a loan officer, you're doing
transactions every single day.
You're touching files every single
day.
You're seeing scenarios every
single day.
You know what the market does.
You know what the market is goingto do.
I mean, again, we know withinreason.
We don't know what the rates aregoing to be in six months.
(27:55):
But we do know that if you look atthe last 100 years in real estate,
pretty much there's not a bad timeto buy other than maybe if you
bought in 2009.
But even then, as long as you held
long enough, you were good, right.
And so I think there's much value
to what you just talked about.
Like I don't over educate, you
said, I don't over educate them.
I just, hey, here's what we're
gonna do.
We're gonna get some information,
and then we'll figure out whatneeds to happen next.
(28:16):
That's value.
That's huge to me.
If you don't take anything awayfrom this podcast today, but that,
that is the most valuable thing isstop trying to over educate the
people because all it does isconfuse them.
And then what they're going to dois you're going to get all this
information.
And then the next loan officer
that calls them that just takestheir application and gets the
process going is going to gettheir business takes too long to
train a new loan officer.
We don't need to train our
customers to be loan officers.
We need to tell our customers
like, Hey, I know you don't dothis every day, but guess what I
(28:38):
do?You're in great hands.
We're going to look at everypossibility, leave no stone
unturned, and we'll come up withthe best solution for your
situation.
That's what clients really want to
hear is can I do it?And what's my payment?
How much do I need to come toclosing with?
Is there a way that I can come toclosing with less money?
Is there a way I can save moremoney?
Can I get a better deal becauseI'm a first-time home buyer?
Guess what?I already looked at those options.
(28:59):
These are the best options.
I looked at every possibility.
Here's how I'm going to save youthe most money.
So I do think sometimes cutting itdown and just giving them the good
news, sending them theirpre-qualitator, like, hey, by the
way, I wanted to go over thesedetails with you.
Tomorrow, we're going to send youan email with a list of items to
gather up just so that we can makesure that all the details that
you've given us match up witheverything that you've talked
about, you know?a way Yeah, because people think
(29:20):
that rate is the most importantthing.
And the reason they think that isbecause consumers are ultimately
taught that that's what theyshould care about.
Right.
But not because it actually really
matters.
Other than obviously, when we just
had these 2% rates, I thinkeverybody kind of knows I got this
2 point whatever 75 rate.
But prior to this craziness of the
2% rates, 3% rates, if you askpeople what the rate was, most
people probably don't evenremember.
Right.
And so like thinking about it from
(29:41):
that perspective, you're right.
I mean, can you afford it?
Can you afford to make a 3000 4000$2,000 payment a month as what
really matters.
I mean, and I'm assuming that's
kind of how you ask it.
Like, you know, what are you
comfortable with on a monthlybasis?
of the loan application, one ofthe questions that I do ask them
is, what is the highest paymentyou would feel comfortable making?
And so part of what we're tellingthem though, is because I'm going
to show you the options that areup to your comfort zone, as long
as you can qualify for them.
(30:02):
And then I'll usually say, hey,
this isn't your max.
It was just the max comfort zone
that we discussed.
So for some reason, you're out
there and you find the perfecthouse and that house justifies a
higher payment.
Just let me know.
And I'll just see if those numberscan work for you.
So you're there to just be thatlike, I'm now your helper.
Don't stress when you find theperfect house, reach out to me,
I'm going to run you the numberson it.
(30:22):
You can see if that's how you wantto structure your offer.
you That's amazing.
You know, again, this was super,
super valuable.
And one of the things we talk
about all the time, you know,unfortunately, salespeople, and I
don't want to just pick on loanofficers, I think it's salespeople
in general, including myself,sometimes, we're so quick to rush
past the discovery, understandingtheir situation and trying to get
to the pitch, the thing that wethink is the value, right?
Is, hey, well, I'm going to showyou all these cool things that I
(30:43):
can do, right?I'm going to show you all these
cool programs.
But the reality is like, we have
to identify what their problem,their pain point is, what they're
looking to solve, why they'relooking to solve those things as
well.
And then from there, we can decide
if we can prescribe, you know, thesolution that we have to them,
asking these questions and beingassertive and being a leader, one
of those things I feel people aretoo scared to show up as a leader
in the sales conversation becausethey don't want to label
themselves a salesperson becausethey don't want to be seen as
(31:03):
pushy.
But I think there's a balance
there.
I think there's a way to do it and
do it from a confidenceperspective and knowing versus
doing it from like, I need to getthe sale.
I'm desperate.
I need the money.
There's differences there, right?You know, pushing something into
something they shouldn't be doing.
That's unethical sales.
Now showing why it makes sense tobuy in a market, even like this,
based off of data, based off of,you know, your experience, I think
is ethical too, because guesswhat?
If they don't move forward withyou, they get a rocket mortgage
(31:25):
ad.
You think rocket mortgage is going
to care?They're going to take their
application.
They're going to charge them two
points.
They're going to whatever it is
that they do on that side.
And that's what I like to explain
to loan officers.
Like if you truly believe you're
the best at what you do as a loanofficer, then it's your ethical
obligation to get these people towork with you because they're
going to go work with someoneelse.
That other person may not care asmuch as you That other person may
(31:47):
not care as much as you do.
So I like to ask this question.
If you were to go back out there,if you're starting over or you
were telling a new loan officersome strategies on how to go out
and get business today, what wouldbe your recommendation for a loan
officer that would do that?Yeah.
So it's an easy question for me toanswer because we do have new loan
officers that have joined our teamthat are now top producing loan
officers at our company.
I mean, one of my loan assistants,
(32:07):
she closes easily 230 to 250 unitsa year on her own.
And she started as my loanassistant.
She worked at Chick-fil-A.
She was a customer online.
And she became one of my loanassistants, best loan assistant
I've ever had.
Phenomenal loan assistant.
Another one was a salesperson.
He actually sold for our builder
and we are the preferred lenderfor him.
And he was a salesperson.
He said, I want to come do your
side of things.
And I was like, oh, no, you don't.
Like, don't do it.
You know, I tried to talk him out
(32:29):
of it.
He wouldn't let me but now I mean,
he's somebody who closes 250 to300 units a year.
And what I kind of told him wasall the same thing is, whenever
you do have a deal, make sure youcommunicate with both sides.
That's another opportunity to getanother agent's business, right?
Be really good at showing thatrelationship, how you do that
process, you get to show both ofthem, it was a freebie, right?
(32:49):
Getting out of whatever thefeeding frenzy is.
So if your community has lots ofloan officers, find another
community that doesn't and drivethere, start taking information in
there, finding those realtors onFacebook, setting up lunches
whenever you can.
And so that's how they built their
business was essentially justgetting out there and then just
trying to multiply everyopportunity they had to grow their
businesses.
So getting out there and then just
trying to multiply everyopportunity they had to grow their
businesses.
So getting out byways and byways,
Josh, I'm just going to say withina two hour radius, he would do a
(33:11):
circuit of driving through ruralKansas, rural Missouri, and he
would just drive and like stop byrealtor offices and just visit
with whoever was there.
And he picked up a lot of those
offices just by showing up andbeing somebody who was good to
their word, fast, efficient.
I feel like maybe lots of people
stop by and they're like, okay,here's a pie.
All right, bye or one Be or It'sactually about going in and
developing relationships.
(33:32):
Probably one of my largest
referral partners I would neverexpect is in rural Kansas.
The community has only banks, nomortgage competition, and they
have a huge hospital in thislittle rural Kansas community.
What's the hospital?Nurses and doctors.
Guess what?We do a ton of loans there.
If I was rebuilding my business, Iwould be finding where is that
demographic profile?Banks, no mortgage companies.
Why?Because I think mortgage companies
are not a jack of all trades likethe bank is.
They are geared to do one thingreally, really well.
(33:52):
And that's mortgages.
And so I feel like that's my
biggest competition is othermortgage companies.
So I want to go to a communitythat has less competition, that
has banks that are doing thingsslow, not doing all the loan
programs, and who has a lot ofindustry.
So maybe they have some factories,manufacturing, hospitals, schools.
Those are the things that I'mlooking for.
If I was going to target acommunity and be like, I'm going
to go there.
I'm going to make that community
my community.
I'm going to go make myself
present.
We have a community champion
program.
It's where we give discounted
closing costs to people who are inlike 911 call centers,
(34:14):
firefighters, could be actuallyanybody who works at the school.
It could be the secretary.
It doesn't matter.
But even if I just drop by likecupcakes or drinks or something
like, hey, guys, just wanted totreat you something.
This is who I am like just goingto making yourself part of that
community.
You can adopt a community
anywhere.
So you can become that community's
lender.
I just pick one that you didn't
have somebody else doing the samething right behind you.
(34:35):
So getting away from the feedingfrenzy and going out and business
development, developing thatbusiness for Guess what?
And so It you got to work?Is that what you're You do got to
do a little work, especially atthe beginning.
So you can build it up enough.
Yeah, it does work for you.
I mean, I'm super grateful for it.
But that's the spot that I feel
I'm at now is I don't have to goout and be quite so active in
that.
But that's still a very enjoyable
space.
Sure.
Going out and doing that work andletting people know like, why
(34:58):
should you trust me with thatbusiness specifically versus
giving out three names ordifferent things like that.
I tell agents giving out threenames just confuses people.
Just tell people like, hey, I havemultiple referral partners that I
could give you.
Why don't you give Ron a call, see
how that goes.
And if we need to get you with
somebody else, we will.
You've done your responsibility to
say that there's multipleopportunities that can help them,
(35:20):
but helping guide them to createlike a confused buyer is not a
buyer, they're going to start toslow down in their process.
We want to keep them comfortableand moving forward.
So yeah, realtor education totheir to keep them comfortable and
moving forward.
So yeah, realtor education to
their confused mind never buys.
And so that's huge.
And I agree.
We talked about niching, right?
I mean, you just talked about it,the heroes of the community.
Like we love that angle.
(35:40):
We do that from our paid ads
perspective, You can do itorganically, right?
Go in, create flyers for openhouses.
And you talked about discountedclosing costs.
You work with an agent that iswilling to give some sort of a
credit if you're in a market thatallows that.
I know some states don't allowthat.
But if you're in a market thatallows that, partner together and
start marketing together a productfor heroes or a program for
(36:03):
heroes, right?I mean, think about Homes for
Heroes.
That's just a discount program.
It doesn't have to be a discount,but it's just, hey, how do we get
in front of these niches?And we talk about riches in the
niches, things like that.
But I think so many times we want
to focus, well, what if I do that?Then do I not get the other loans?
(36:24):
It's like, well, you talked aboutbeing a VA specialist to that one
person.
And so you get her VA loans, but
I'm sure most people are sendingyou all their loans, not just VA
loans, right?true.
So doesn't mean you don't get theother loans.
It just means that you are able tohave a concise message when you're
having conversations with people.
So again, not confusing people,
right?Oh, I do USD and I do VA and I do
(36:44):
FHA and I do this and that.
Okay, cool.
So you're like everybody else.
What makes you stand out from
everybody else?And I think that's the big thing
you were talking about there andfinding communities that don't
have as much competition is abrilliant idea because so many
people are like, well, I livehere.
So I want to do business here.
And it's like, well, you're
licensed in the whole state.
I mean, so many people are so
(37:05):
resistant to doing business.
And I was like, most loan officers
these days are not going to theclosings.
Most loan officers these days arenot meeting people in person.
So like what makes you think thatyou have to be in person?
I get it.
Like it's easier to go see your
realtors local, but you don't evenhave to do that.
You can use zoom or doing zoomright here.
Everybody that I've pretty muchmet in the country is all been via
zoom.
Like I've, none of my team members
are even in my office.
(37:27):
I literally have zero people in my
office.
I have 16 people on the team and
they're all across the entirenation.
There's no reason you don't haveto be in person.
Technology has changed a lot.
So I think there's tons of value
in this podcast.
For me, my biggest takeaways from
today's is, I mean, you talked alot about process.
Obviously you have both sides.
You did great at sales.
We started out with a lot of theprocess oriented stuff.
So if you are a loan officer, itmaybe doesn't fit that sort of
(37:49):
systems oriented mindset.
My recommendation is you need to
do that.
You need to create a process.
You need to create a You process.
need to create a consistent
process.
I know it sucks.
I know it's going to feel likeyou're washing paint dry, but
implementing processes for me, I'mADHD.
So I have to block my calendar.
So I block my calendar.
I have blocks.
I get stuff done.
Even then I don't get stuff done,but I try as much as I can because
(38:09):
if it's not on my calendar, itdoesn't exist for me personally.
That's what works for me.
What works for Rhonda may not work
for you, or it may work for you.
So thinking about it from that
perspective, what works for you,but you have to create systems.
You have to have a process whereyou can keep track of people,
whether it be a CRM, Trello,literally a spreadsheet, you can
use a spreadsheet for now.
I mean, whatever it is, something
that you can track, keep notes, beconsistent over time.
And then the second half of this,we talked about sales, do the
(38:32):
work.
I mean, at the end of the day is
doing the work, being consistent,but it's also doing the things you
say you're going to do honoringyour word, being a person of
integrity that finishes what theysay they're going to do.
And then also that does it fastand does it well be perfecting
your craft.
I'm sure you're always learning
things every single day, eventhough you've been doing this for,
I mean, you said 2010, I think yousaid you got in the business,
right?So years.
Five.
Oh, five.
Oh, that's right.
That's right.
So even longer, right?So that's 21 years now you've been
(38:54):
in the industry and no, almost 19years, I guess.
I don't know.
I don't know how to do math.
What am I doing public math forhere?
A long time.
You've been doing mortgages for a
long time and I'm sure you'relearning things every single day.
So any last parting words for thelisteners here?
I say you're very blessed to getto be in the industry that you're
in.
And it's not like you can just go
to college and be like, I'm goingto be a mortgage loan officer.
(39:14):
And so just be a really goodsteward of that blessing.
Just go out and take really goodcare of people.
And that's every person in theprocess, the title company, the
realtor, the customer, and yourstaff.
So I just felt like that's theweight that we get to carry is
just being really good at this jobthat we were blessed to get to do.
I so mean, there's not too manyindustries where you can make the
type of money you can make in thisindustry and have kind of an
unlimited cap in income withouthaving a degree, without having to
(39:35):
go to 20 years of school and allthat kind of stuff like doctors
and attorneys and a lot of theseother industries do.
Sales is a blessing, but it canalso be stressful.
So if you're going to be in thisindustry, make as much money as
you can.
Obviously do it in the right way.
But I think if you're in thisindustry and you're not making at
least six figures, man, that's alot of stress to deal with, to not
make a bunch of money.
And again, help people.
And I think obviously you can tellthat Rhonda helps people and cares
and it's paid off in spades.
(39:56):
So that's awesome.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
If someone wanted to connect withyou, I don't know if you're
looking to hire whatever, youknow, if someone to connect with
you online or learn more about,you know, your team, where can
they find some more So my name iswithout an H. So it's R-O-N-D-A.
So if you're Googling me orlooking for me that way, it'd be
R-O-N-D-A.
And then my last name, Hickey, you
can find me on Facebook.
And usually every single one of my
(40:18):
posts, I will say this is one morething I could tell your listeners
is if they're going to make aFacebook post that has to do with
their business, always make sureyou include your contact
information.
I see a ton of loan officers will
make this great post and they'relike, reach out to me.
I'd love to help you with this.
And we don't actually include a
way to reach out to them.
So every single one of my public
(40:39):
related posts for my business arealways going to include my cell
phone number and my email addressso they can reach out to me that
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or I mean, the other thing is atleast say, send me a DM, right?
You know, like at least tell themexactly what to do.
They get caught in that otherinbox.
Oh, that's true.
If they're not a friend.
Yeah.
If they're not a friend, then that
can be a problem.
But yeah, I agree.
I mean, you got to have some sortof call to action and you have to
(40:59):
be pretty precise, right?People think they can kind of have
this as broad.
Like, oh, reach out to me.
It's like, well, how?Like, tell me exactly how to do
it, right?how to do it, right?
Don't make it hard, make it easy.
You want to make it the easiest
way possible.
it Yep, absolutely agreed.
And thank you so much for yourtime today, Rhonda.
It was amazing.
Honestly, the discovery process,
what you talked about with notover-educating, I really liked
that part.
That was really something I talk
(41:20):
about a lot, but something that Ithink loan officers need to hear a
little bit more is like education.
I think they think is a good thing
and it is to a certain extent, butit also confuses people.
And like we said, confused mindnever buys.
So thank you so much for your timetoday.
And if you are a loan officer justlooking for some help marketing
and flipping the status quo onreal estate agents, go to
flipthestatus the status quo.comthank you so much for listening
and have a great day
podcast, the show where we flipthe real estate status quo on its
head and put loan officers intothe driver's seat.
We give you all the tools,strategies, resources, and mindset
needed to modernize your mortgagebusiness and thrive.
My name is Luke Shankula, aka LongForm Luke, and this is the Loans
On Demand podcast.
going on?
Welcome to the Loans on a ManPodcast, the show where we help
(00:25):
loan officers flip the status quoon real estate agents and put loan
officers in the driver's seat.
And I'm excited because today we
have Rhonda Hickey.
She is a total badass and she is a
mortgage banker.
She closes almost 500 units a
year, has five kids.
I don't really know how she does
this.
She's married.
Now, again, this is wild.
So thank you so much for being
here.
(00:45):
Welcome to the show.
Yeah, you bet.
for having me.
Well, so give us a littlebackground.
Who are you?What got you into the industry?
And what keeps you in this crazyindustry?
I actually started in mortgagesbefore the mortgage crisis of
2008.
So I started in 2005.
I sold cars for Honda Auto CenterBellevue in Washington State.
I was Rhonda Honda.
And I sold a car to a lady who was
(01:06):
a private mortgage banker.
And she said, you need to come do
what I do.
And looking back at my life at
that point, it was a compilationof a lot of different things that
I felt God prepared me for.
I had worked a job at a university
that involved a lot of liketranscript evaluating.
So I had to look at transfercredits to see does this match
this class that we have.
(01:26):
And so I feel like, you know, in
mortgage lending, I do so many ofthe things that I used to do then.
And I think most of my job issales.
So I find that it's a really bigblend of sales, and a very detail
oriented environment.
And so it was like the perfect job
for me.
And so I feel super blessed for
selling that Honda CR-V to SusanStrine, wherever she may be these
(01:47):
days.
But when I look back, that's kind
of how I got into this.
Why stay stay days I ask myself
that question.
This job is, I think, 10 out of 10
on the level of I think, when Ifeel at my production, that's 30
to 40 people in process constantlyasking questions and texts all day
and night and just theaccessibility of being available,
(02:08):
but setting like appropriateboundaries.
Sure.
Sometimes I definitely question
why I do this, but it really comesdown to this is a lucrative
industry.
And I feel so blessed to be able
to do what I do every day, forsure.
sure.
And that's awesome.
And if you haven't listened to theepisode, we also have had Sam
Hickey on the show, who isRhonda's husband, and he runs a
(02:28):
team as well.
So they're both crazy.
They're both running bigbusinesses doing crazy amounts of
volume.
And somehow they still have time
to hang out and do things and allthat fun stuff and have five So I
don't kids.
know out and do things and all
that fun stuff and have five kids.
So I don't know how they do it,
but that's why she's on the showto share all the secrets of what
she does.
So I'm excited to dive in today.
On average, I mean, you're closing450 to 500 units a year.
What's your superpower?What sort of makes you sort of run
(02:50):
at those levels, right?we do have teams at our company.
Those are specifically my units.
Like that's my personal production
in that mix.
I'm actually taking those loan
applications, processing thoseloan applications and getting them
through the process.
So my team does close more than
that.
And as far as units go, but I feel
like in that, that is what is mysuperpower.
(03:11):
It's not only actually being ableto understand loan guidelines,
which I am a very big opponent of.
Essentially, I think that people
need to know their craft.
And so understanding loan program
guidelines, the different toolsavailable, AUS, knowing when to
run and how to try all the littledifferent tricks, it increases my
percentage of yes.
Like how often do I get to say yes
compared to my competition is mysuperpower.
(03:33):
And also my ability to sell whythat is different to a realtor.
I feel like my confidence level ofexplaining to a realtor, like, let
me be the best free assistantyou'll ever have.
Like I'm going to not only keepyou informed through the process,
I'm going to say yes to your leadsmore often.
So that business that you're goingout and working hard and paying a
(03:54):
lot of money to get like, let megive you better returns on that
business.
So I feel like that's my combined
superpower is that lend of notonly loving the op side of a loan,
but also being really good at thesales side too.
Sure.
And that's what we like to call
unicorns, people that arelistening to this.
Most people can do one of thosetwo things well, right?
They're either really good atstructuring files and doing all
that sort of nitty gritty workwith the actual loan.
(04:16):
And the other side of that is thesales side.
And again, I mean, I think wetalked about this pre going on
live, but you know, a lot of loanofficers have ADHD, you know,
they're sort of like, not detailoriented people, and they're out
there shaking hands, get somebabies, all that fun stuff.
And a lot of times the detailssort of fall by the wayside, or
they need to find someone thatcan, you know, sort of fill that
role.
And so if you feel like you don't
(04:36):
have a lot of those skills on bothsides, then maybe just finding
someone that has maybe more of anoperational background or the
opposite side, if you're maybebetter at the operational, finding
someone that's, you know, maybebetter at making it rain.
But from that perspective, I mean,you have all these deals in
process.
How do you manage your time?
I mean, ultimately that's a lot oftransactions for one single person
to And do.
like you I said, you mean, have
all these deals in process.
How do you manage your time?
I mean, ultimately, that's a lotof transactions for one single
(04:58):
person to And do.
like you I said, mean, this is
personal production.
This isn't like, I'm putting all
my team's production under my NMLSnumber, like you're actually doing
these deals.
So how do you manage your time?
Like, what does that look like?And then also boundaries, right?
I mean, how do you set boundariesaround that sort of crazy volume?
I mean, I'm sure people want toreach out to you at crazy times,
but you got to cut it off at somepoint.
Yeah, and I feel like I do it alittle bit organically, like how I
manage my day.
I do not time block or anything
fancy like that.
I honestly rarely even use my
Outlook calendar.
So most of what I'm doing is I'm
(05:20):
working off a list throughout theday.
And then I use that list toreprioritize things.
Like I know that I could have fivethings to do, but each of them
have a different level of whenthey need to be done first.
So I'm somebody that's really goodat going out of order throughout
my day based on what I feel is thehighest priority, but also still
always closing all the opencircles.
Like I need to make sure thateverybody gets back to.
So it's obviously a mixture.
It's a blend of knowing who I need
(05:41):
to call back, who I need to textback, who I need to email back,
and then kind of keeping thatorder throughout the day.
I mean, everybody could do thatsome sort of like whatever
organization works best for them.
One thing that I will never get
rid of, no matter where I work, aslong as I'm in this job, is I do
utilize Trello, which is not anindustry thing, but it works so
well.
It's extremely intuitive.
It's super fast to train peopleon.
(06:02):
But essentially, like each client,I know everything about anything
we've ever done on them, how tocontact them.
It's my follow up and everything.
So it's really become the brain of
our operation.
If I for some reason, I'm out of
the office, it allows any of ourloan support to just pop in and
know what we were working on.
Why did we exclude those five
debts?Or what was their job history?
Or how do we calculate the income?So it's essentially a place that
(06:24):
we can put those notes in that'snot a CRM.
And it's also, it's ours, meaningno matter where we go, we can
still keep that.
And we're also able to like,
doesn't matter if I'm at Walmart,and it's on a Saturday, a client
reaches out to me like, hey, wefound the perfect house, can we go
up to 300?I pull up Trello on my phone.
Like, yeah, you can.
Awesome.
I'll send you an updated prequalletter.
(06:45):
I'm not reliant on having to be inhere and then pull up the file and
all those different things.
I have my brain on demand, able to
just pull it up and kind of seewhat's going we those love it.
You know, Trello for anybody who'slistening to this is like a
project management platform.
There's some others out there as
well that are similar to Trello.
What I do like about Trello, like
you mentioned, is there's a lot ofthese platforms that try to do
(07:06):
everything right.
They're just over complicated, you
know, have a lot of moving parts.
You can switch from Kanban view to
this other view to this otherview.
And for someone that may be not besuper technical, it causes a lot
of confusion and overwhelm.
And so I do like Trello from the
perspective of it's very simple touse for the most part, at least.
I mean, it's been a little bitsince I've been in Trello, but
it's a in Trello, but it's fairlyeasy to use.
(07:27):
And it's totally like, it's veryintuitive.
I mean, I feel like I could teachmy mom how to use it.
You know, like it's easy foranybody to use it.
And that intuitive part of itwhere you'd be like, I think I
should be able to do this.
And it just does that.
So it is instrumental in mybusiness personally.
And it's free.
So yeah.
Yeah.
it's free.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so you're using the freeversion.
You're not the paid upgrades.
We have 10 plus people on it.
We do pay for per user.
(07:49):
But if somebody is like a 1, 2, 3,
4, 5, 6, 10 person or less, it isfree.
on Nice.
So Yeah.
those are those premium sort ofmodels where you get you in, 10
can, person or it less, is free.
Nice.
So Yeah.
those are those freemium sort of
models where like, you know, youget in, you can use a lot of the
features for free.
And then some of the features you
may have to pay for, even then Idon't think it's super expensive,
right?It's, you know, maybe 20, 30 bucks
(08:10):
a seat or something.
So yeah, that's amazing.
And from that perspective, like,are you using it almost like a
pipeline type of flow, like aKanban view where you're kind of
dragging them from stage to stage,just like a basic overview of how
that's sort of set up.
Yeah.
So there's like a little bubblethat's called a card and it
represents that specific client.
So all their contact information
and any notes are represented inthere.
And then for my own personalbusiness, we do use lists.
So my daily do would be anything Ineed to work on that day.
And then I have a waiting room,which is where I've usually
(08:31):
reached out to the client and needsomething else to finish on my
pre-qualification.
Okay.
And then we also have like monthlyfollow-up lists where we're like,
Hey, I pre-qualified thiscustomer.
I want to check in with them nextmonth.
I'm not somebody who checks on myclients frequently because there's
just not enough time in the dayfor that.
Like I want to stay in touch withthem enough that they don't forget
my name, but I'm not calling themevery couple of days.
Like, did you find a house yet?Like that's not happening.
(08:53):
And so we move them into monthlyfollow-up lists or if they have
like a bankruptcy waiting period,and I know that it's not going to
be up until next November, I movethem to a next October list so
that I can check in with them nextOctober.
And once we get a contract, itgoes to a new loan assistance
board, which is where they lockit.
They set it up for disclosures,their jobs to have the file, the
processing within three days ofdisclosing the loan.
And we do have a feature calledButler Setup, which it
(09:15):
automatically moves that client'scard.
They don't have to actually clickit and move it.
It moves itself.
If it's not in processing within
three days, they are kind of onhigh alert that that's a priority
list.
And then from there, it goes to
the loan processor where the loanprocessor moves it through their
own list.
Like, okay, it's been
underwritten.
Okay.
It's been conditionally approved,submitted to RD, whatever those
things I a house It's it.
That's awesome.
You talk about process.
I mean, that's important to have
some sort of process that you canfollow because ultimately, I mean,
(09:37):
you say you don't time block,which is crazy to me, but I'm also
ADHD.
So, you know, if I don't time
block, I won't get anything done.
That's cool that you have this
process and that you systemize itto the point where it works for
you.
Because I think that's important.
So many people are like, what'sthe best CRM?
What's the best process?It's like, well, the truth is, you
can do your business about amillion different ways and
(09:58):
ultimately comes down to whatworks for you.
What are you going to beconsistent with?
I mean, people talk about the CRMthing, right?
Oh, what's the best CRM?Well, the best CRM, I know it's
cliche, but the best CRM is theone you use.
Like, what are you using to manageyour pipeline?
And then from that perspective,like, do you set up rots, like
where there's reminders ifsomething happens after a certain
amount of period?Or like, talk about like, hey, if
they have a bankruptcy, does thatpop up as a reminder for you?
(10:20):
Or you just know, hey, here's myreminders.
I just know every single day I'mgoing to check in on that or
whatever.
have something that on a very
specific day, I want to re-pullcredit, or I know that there's a
specific time that I need to doit.
Honestly, normally I just email myloan assistant and be like, remind
me on this day that I need to dothis, right?
Like that's probably what Inormally do.
But as far as like, I know that Iwant to follow up with all those
clients in October of 2024, theygo in that list.
(10:40):
And then that month, one of theloan assistants reaches out to
every one of those clients going,Hey, it looks like we wanted to
recheck in with your credit thismonth.
Is it okay if we give it anothercredit pool?
Or maybe they were pre-qualifiedin shopping and we're just a month
out.
Like, hey, how are things going?
Are there any questions we cananswer?
But the loan assistant reads thosenotes in that client's card to
determine like, what am I reachingout to them for?
Like, what was the purpose of it?Were they a credit improvement
(11:01):
plan or were they pre-qualified inshopping?
And then also from there, theymake their notes, like how did
they reach out?Did they reach out by text, call
or email so that we know the nexttime we reach out, maybe we want
to reach out a different way, likeif they didn't they way, we're not
like, oh, we email them every timeand they never respond.
Maybe they don't check their way,we're not up the phone, give them
a phone call.
So we just try to like reach out
the most effective way possible toget the best return on it.
(11:23):
we just Well, I love that because,you know, it's funny.
That's what I find people do a lotis they'll do something.
Well, I sent an email and I calledthem.
Did they respond?Yeah.
They didn't.
Then keep calling and emailing or
texting or whatever, right?Like just keep trying things
because like I think people giveup too easily on stuff.
And obviously you don't chasepeople forever, but there is a
certain level of justunderstanding that people are
busy.
are busy.
Like put the wife on there or putthe husband on.
Right.
(11:43):
Right.
Next thing you know, now you justfound the main point of contact.
And honestly, I think some peopleget a little scared to reach out.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Yes.
So I'm a big fan of making sure
that essentially, I want to reachout in the way that's going to get
me the best return for thatclient.
yeah.
And that's what we talked about a
lot too, is, you know, like youneed to almost use all the mediums
just to figure out what worksbest.
Because if someone responds to atext, use text message, because
(12:05):
that's clearly their preferredmedium.
If someone responds to an email,send them an email because that's
probably their preferred method.
If they call you, call them.
more thing about Trello, weliterally have labels on our
Trello cards that might say, hey,this person's a day sleeper.
I don't want to be callingsomebody who was up all night and,
you know, two o'clock in theafternoon.
So we do label some of thosethings so we know the best time to
also reach the client.
And it doesn't matter if I'm
(12:26):
talking to that client today orsix months from now, when you
would have well forgot them, Ipull up that client's card and I
can see this person's a talker.
I'm going to be on the phone for
an hour if I call them.
I'm going to send them a text.
You know what I mean?Like, so we're able to kind of
track what I mean?Like, so we're able to kind of
track them.
And that's huge from a trust
building perspective too, becauselike, if you talk to someone,
(12:48):
there's dogs barking in thebackground or something like that,
or there's kids running around inthe background or something like
that, like bringing that up onthat next conversation is a
powerful trust building tool oflike, hey, like, you know, I
remember last time you had a dogbarking in the background.
How's the dog doing?Right.
Like, you know, whatever.
Like, and so, you know, those are
ways to build trust.
We talk about taking notes pretty
consistently because the otherthing too, is especially for
(13:08):
someone like you, who's doing thismany transactions, but anyone
that's doing two, three, four,five transactions a month, you
start to get a little bit of thatblindness.
Cause if you're touching 10, 20files every single month or even
10 files every single month, it'slike everybody runs into each
other.
And funny, because I tell my sales
guys, how do you guys not rememberthese people?
You guys have been talking tothese people.
And then I take a bunch of salescalls.
Oh, okay.
I get it.
It's just they all run together.
They're just blending together.
So having notes is a super hugeway of building trust.
(13:29):
You use a sales tool though, andnot to cut you off, but we use it
with our realtors.
So every single client gets
labeled with where did thatreferral source come from?
And let's say that client closeson their new house.
They love it.
And two years from now, they refer
their sister to me.
Guess what we're looking up?
Who referred the other person,reconnecting them back to that
original referral partner.
And so part of our notes is that
structure of just even saying,okay, this one came from this
friend.
That friend came from this
realtor.
Let's reconnect all those people
so that it's more money in ourrealtor's pocket down the so Yeah,
(13:50):
and that's huge.
One of the biggest things that I
talk about from a salesperspective with realtors is they
typically want one of two things.
They want someone who knows the
fundamentals, which we talkedabout at the beginning.
You need to know the fundamentals.
You need to close on time.
You need to do all those things.
That's important.
You need to know your craft.
But then what they really want is,
can you save them time on thetransaction or can you make them
money?And so being able to do those
(14:11):
things, being able to refer peopleback to them, being able to put
money in their pockets, I mean,those people are going to be
pretty loyal if you're able to putmoney in their pockets and you can
close on time and you can do allthe other things that everybody
likes to talk about.
Right.
So let's talk a little bit aboutwhat the value prop is, right?
I mean, you don't close 470transactions on accident.
(14:31):
What's sort of the approach?I mean, you said that you get a
lot of your business from pastclients, but then I'm assuming you
also have a significant amount ofbusiness that comes from realtors.
What's sort of the pitch or thevalue prop that you bring to
realtors as you're looking, maybegoing after new ones or continue
to build relationships with yourones?
If you looked at my referralsource of like how many loans I
closed last month or something,you're going to see probably 20%
of those are past clientreferrals.
(14:51):
So either the past clientthemselves is coming back for a
new loan, or they're sending a Andfeel like I keep that business
generated by way of oftenfriending my clients on Facebook.
I do use Facebook as a platform toget new business in the sense of I
want them to be somebody that theyconsider me to be a friend or
somebody more than just the personthat did their loan.
So we do develop that kinship, youknow, on Facebook.
Past that, the mix is veryblended.
It's mostly realtors, but it mightbe one referral from that realtor
or maybe two in a given month.
It's not like, oh, yeah, I've got
(15:12):
this real like big hitter, andthey send me all this business.
It's more market share, it's morereferral partners sending me that
one deal every couple of months.
Great.
I love that one deal every coupleof months.
So I learned this early in mybusiness, niching out a spot for
yourself.
I have one agent, they don't send
me all their business.
That's okay.
But they do send me every VA loan.
Why?
Because I told them early on, Isaid, I'm a VA specialist.
I know VA loans in and out.
If you don't send me any other
business, if all you do is send meyour VA loans, like you're going
(15:35):
to love my process for this.
So that's literally all she sends
me is the VA loan.
She knows I do a great job.
She could send me the other ones,but she already has somebody that
she works with that she reallylikes.
It gives her like a way to referme business without feeling like
she's kind of making a slight toher other I I love that
(15:56):
opportunity.
My team also is the preferred
lender for a builder.
I don't personally sit on site
anymore.
I do a little bit on like a
rotation or if you know they needcoverage, somebody's missing a day
or something.
So I'd say most of that business
does go to my team and it doesn'tfilter through me, but maybe 2030
units a year, probably say 20 ayear right now still do come from
(16:18):
that builder relationship, whichit's a really big builder.
So, you know, we're blessed to dothat.
So that might seem like a lot ofunits.
It is, but it's still prettysporadic for me these days.
So if I was not in business growthmode, I do occasionally I do
little nudges, I'll text a realtoror stuff like that, doing that
many loans, like I'm not going tomy closing, I'm in the office
(16:39):
grinding out loans all the time.
So there's an amount of if I had
more time, and I was looking togrow my business, or I put
somebody in this spot to grind,but I enjoy it too much.
Like I enjoy making the loanshappen too much to just really
just say I'd want to do somethingelse.
So I would say that's where Iwould be setting up appointments,
doing more first time homebuyerclasses, like I would do those
things that I felt like reallybuilt my business up at the
(16:59):
beginning is making connectionswith Yeah.
So that's some of the stuff youdid at the beginning was you said
you did like homebuyer classes andthings like that.
Like, I mean, I guess we can goback a little bit and you know,
understand what was it that builtthe business in the first place?
Because doing 500 units byyourself is wild to me.
But going beyond that is prettyimpossible for most people.
So what was it that you would sayattracted so many of these agents
and people to work with Was itjust?
(17:21):
Yeah, I do really feel like it isa very specific thing.
So I moved from Seattle,Washington to Joplin, Missouri in
2010.
And doing loans in Seattle versus
doing loans in Joplin at that timewas like, everybody was your
competition in Washington.
Everybody wanted a cut of your
business.
It was very feisty.
You had to be like veryresponsive, accessible all hours
of the day and night on theweekends.
Joplin, Missouri was a differentpace.
It was predominantly banks, nomortgage just?
(17:42):
we'll get you a pre-qual in threedays, never on night, never on the
weekend.
So when I came to Joplin, it kind
of like turned the table over andpeople are like, wait, what?
She goes super fast.
She's really accurate.
She's responsive.
She wants to like help us do all
these events.
Like it was just a different
speed.
Now, all my competition in Joplin
is like that now.
Everybody has that same vibe, but
(18:02):
it definitely was like, that wasthe turning point of, they didn't
really know how to, you know, dothat.
And so that's why I probably gotmost of my business at the
beginning was just reallycreative, like solution-based
financing.
Like I would just really creative,
like solution based financing.
Like I would always tell
everybody, like, I don't say no toa client.
I say, how, how are we going to dothis?
You want to buy a house?Let's figure out how.
Right.
So even just some of those like
(18:23):
little word tracks with realtors,I think really endeared them to my
process that I'm there to helpthem close more loans.
And also I became kind of like the911, like call Rhonda, this deal
is falling apart.
She can fix it.
I'm definitely a loan fixer.
Somebody else says no, that they
said yes to either.
I'm going to come in and be like,
yeah, this probably shouldn't havebeen a yes then it's going to need
(18:43):
this level of work.
It's going to take this long.
Or we come in and be like, I don'tknow what they're thinking.
This file works this way.
And we just restructure it or we
keep it the way it was.
And we close it and we close it
fast and efficient.
So I just feel like we've created
(19:03):
such a strong reputation builtaround doing a really good job,
but being really fast with ourprocess too.
I I love it.
And I think even just that concept
of like never know, right?There's a pervasive attitude in
the mortgage industry,unfortunately.
And for anybody who's listening tothis, it's probably not but maybe
you, it I don't is.
But know.
people tend to throw prospects inthe mortgage industry,
unfortunately, and for anybodywho's listening to it's this,
(19:25):
probably not but maybe you, it Idon't is, know.
But people tend to throw prospectsin the trash if they're not like
ready to buy.
They call them tire kickers, they
whatever, like, you know, likethese are human beings that are
looking to buy a home.
Are they ready to buy now?
Maybe, maybe not, right?Maybe you can restrict the file
and get them in, but they're stillhuman.
They still deserve respect.
(19:45):
And if you put them on a plan, not
every single person is probablygoing to complete your plan, but I
don't know.
I think there's a massive missed
opportunity that loan officers aremissing out on because they're
still like, Oh, I want thisbusiness.
They got to be ready to buy in thenext 90 days.
And like all that kind of stuff islike, okay, well, what does a
paper buyers do?Like you're a commodity.
They're looking for the lowestrate.
(20:05):
They're looking for the best this,like the race to the bottom, in my
opinion, for that sort ofbusiness, not saying that you
shouldn't take that businessbecause you obviously should take
that business too, but what makesyou stand out?
And I think so many people are socaught up in this.
Well, you know, I need thebusiness now.
And it's like, no, like part ofthis is like, you have to learn
how to nurture people, show up, bea leader and tell them what they
need to do to afford to buy ahouse.
And people seem to not really takethat approach still, even to this
(20:27):
day, I do believe, which is whyyou're still probably getting tons
of business just from being theloan fixer.
I don't want to be that person.
Why not?
You're closing two loans a month.
they also gives other opportunity.
Like I can't tell you how manyreferrals I've got from people who
I didn't get to say yes to rightthen.
And they still refer their friendsand we still close loans for their
friends.
Maybe we didn't get to close loan
for that person, but it was stillan opportunity to show somebody
how much we do care so that whenthey see it, like, oh, you're
(20:50):
buying a house, you've got to callthis person.
And so we get a lot of referralsfrom people we didn't even do
loans for, but we can see we did acredit improvement plan or we
coached them on self employedincome, some aspect of the loan
that we took the time thatsomebody maybe else didn't take.
Right now, granted, we don't haveto do tons of time.
Like somebody has to be investedin their own success.
Of course, of course, of course.
But we're going to follow it
through as long as that client'smoving in the right direction with
(21:13):
us.
We're going to still keep working
on it and just keep loving onthem, keep helping them.
Like you say, they're real people.
So that's definitely a very active
part of our process.
But I think it's in some ways
refreshing, like what you'resaying.
A lot of the people that reach outto me are like, well, we applied
with this other lender, but wedidn't hear back.
Guess what?They were a credit action plan,
you know?Well, that's the problem is like,
again, they like this person's notready to buy right now.
So I'm just, I'm not going to getan application.
(21:35):
I'm not going to do like, and somany people are like, you know,
they won't do a verbal app andsort of move them through that
process.
You know, little things like that.
Well, you don't qualify right now.
That sucks.
Yeah.
And you know, it's funny how many
people I've interviewed on thispodcast that say, the reason I got
into this industry was because Ihad such a terrible experience
working with the loan officer thatfirst started.
He didn't know.
They didn't know this.
They didn't know this.
They didn't know this.
(21:55):
And they told me I couldn't buy orwhatever.
And it's like, I mean, it's greatthat they got into the industry
and are actively trying to changethat.
And I do believe there is a lot ofreally, really good loan officers
out there that take a similarapproach.
But unfortunately, there's a largemajority of people that are
unwilling to understand that thebuyer's journey is not 30 to 90
days like you think it is becauseyou get a buyer that's ready to be
pre-approved and ready to be incontract today from your referral
partner.
That's just not how the cube you
(22:15):
just not how the cube is.
And most of them are going to
spend in this market.
Ours is still super active.
But speaking to the nature of whatI still made me successful is
there are other communities outthere that are still bank driven
that maybe don't have that energylevel.
And if you can do loans anywhere,or you can do loans in any city in
your state or whatever, find adifferent community where it's not
a feeding frenzy.
Like now my community is a feeding
(22:35):
frenzy.
There's all these really great
loan officers doing fast thingswith innovative new products.
Like, fine, pick another ruraltown or another thing here or
there and you go be the mortgageexpert for that town.
And so I just feel like that's theother way I would kind of grow
that is I'd pick a place.
I'd pick a place that was
predominantly bank.
I would go in and be fast and
efficient and amazing.
And I would earn those realtors
business in that community just bydoing it at a different pace.
all That's awesome.
Yeah, that's great advice.
(22:56):
And it was just kind of going backto doing right by people.
I mean, a lot of thismisconception around like, well,
if they don't qualify, theirfriends and family aren't going to
qualify either.
And it's like, I think that's a
total lie.
I mean, if these people are
actively looking to buy, I mean,yeah, like you may get someone
that's total.
I mean, I don't want to say trash,
but you might get someone that'slike, they're never going to buy
and they're going to be a waste ofyour time.
And there are going to be peoplelike that.
(23:17):
But I think if you view it fromthe lens of everybody's like that,
anybody who's not ready to buy inthe next 90 days is that person.
I think you're missing out onmassive opportunities because the
truth is the consumer knowsnothing about the mortgage
process.
And this is coming from someone
who bought a house in 2015.
I worked for a mortgage company.
I thought I needed 20% down.
I thought I needed like these
things.
I thought I didn't make enough
income.
I thought all these things that
were completely false and I couldhave bought probably three or four
(23:39):
years earlier.
And I regretted it.
I mean, to a certain extent, Idon't like fully regret it, but I
regret like not being informedenough.
And that is the average consumer.
And I think loan officers for a
lot of times don't understand thisgap knowledge or curse of
knowledge, right?Like you think that everybody
knows all these things about themortgage transaction.
Like they probably don't knowthere's a USDA program out there
(23:59):
that gets you 0% down.
They might know about the VA.
Maybe they don't.
Maybe they don't know about the
Home Ready Home Possible programs.
Maybe they don't know about the
three and a half FHAs, right?Like who knows, right?
Maybe they don't know about thethree and a half FHAs, right?
Like who knows, right?Maybe they don't know about the
down payment assistance available,you know, in their zip code, but
that's up to you as a loan officerto explain to them.
(24:21):
And so from that perspective, whatdoes the sales process look like
when you do receive referrals?So I usually try to get the app no
matter what, because I don't needto be confusing them talking about
all the different loan programs,because I usually tell people
there's usually one really goodloan option for you.
If you are awesome credit score,conventional buyer, putting 20%
down, guess what?That's probably the best loan type
for you.
We don't need to talk about FHAs
or RDs.
You don't fit, right?
You're too set in this specificway.
So I usually just say, let's justget your information.
(24:42):
I'm going to go in and look atevery possible loan type for you.
Then I'll call back and we'll talkabout what the best options are.
Some clients only have one goodoption.
Some people have lots of options.
And when I call those clients, I'm
like, hey, good news is we havelots of options, but we don't know
what house you're going to buyyet.
So we kind of need to startfilling in those different things
that we don't know.
And then once we do, it's going to
be really clear which loan weshould pay.
Why?Because if they go out and they
find a home that's not in greatcondition, and they were eligible
(25:04):
for a conventional loan, guesswhat?
That's now the only loan typethat's probably the right fit when
we have all these otherpossibilities.
So I usually try to not overeducate the clients.
Some of my clients want to be overeducated.
I'm going to over educate the onesthat want to be over educated.
Everybody doesn't get the sameexperience.
So just enough that I can sellthem on that.
And they want to know that I'vealready told them like, Hey, I
looked at every possible loantype.
I figured out which one is thebest.
(25:25):
This one's the best for you.
And I also don't usually talk to
clients about rate unless theywant to talk about rate.
I'm usually like, Hey, send meover your contract.
We'll get you going.
We lock the loan.
We send them the loan disclosures,get them moving along their way.
So I also don't try to bring upthings that are going to cause
them to feel like, oh, she'stalking to me about this.
Now I maybe need to go do researchon it.
So I'm trying to not bring upthings that might potentially
start to overwhelm them, or takethem down a different direction.
Like don't lose business to yourown process.
(25:46):
And what I mean by that is, if youtake too long to let somebody know
you're working on something, youshould always be acknowledging
people in a pretty quick way.
Even if it's just to say, hey, I
wanted to let you know that I'mworking on this right now.
I'm going to get back with you ina couple of hours.
So I've set their expectation andthen I need to meet that
expectation.
But right now, trigger leads is
such a huge thing.
So if I'm sending them a loan
(26:08):
application link or I'm taking aloan application on the phone,
everybody gets to hear from me.
Heads up, by the way, the credit
bureau sell your information toother lenders.
During this time, don't answercalls from numbers you don't
recognize unless you have to.
Don't give your information over
the phone to anyone else.
I You So I have So I'm So Clients
are like, oh my gosh, thank you somuch.
I applied with a different lenderand I got called 80 times in the
(26:29):
first 30 minutes.
Like, I'm just letting them know
to expect it so they know how tohandle it.
So I lose less business just byhaving that conversation expect So
they know how to handle it.
So I lose it.
less business just by having thatconversation up front and telling
them it's going to happen.
how them it's going to happen.
Guys, this was fire right here.
This was a massive, massive value
bomb because here's the truth.
Bone officers love to call
themselves educators.
They love to call themselves
advisors.
All they're doing is they're
(26:50):
confusing the crap out of peopleand they're losing sales because
they think what the consumer needsis more education.
And yes, they need to be educated,but they don't really need to be
educated on the first call.
Let's be honest.
What they need is they need aleader that show up, tell them
what needs to happen.
Again, you don't know anything.
You can't educate anybody onanything because you haven't
identified the problem andprovided the solution yet because
you don't have all the data yet.
(27:11):
And so you got to understand
what's the data, what's theproblem, what's the thing that
they want to what's do, the thingthey want to accomplish, they want
to buy home, obviously.
But as you mentioned, we don't
know if it's gonna be FHA, VA,conventional USDA, down payment
assistance, like we don't knowwhat it is.
So we have to understand thesituation, get their documents,
pull credit, figure out what thatlooks like.
Okay, now we know now we can startto educate them on some of these
different products.
But I find a lot of times people
(27:33):
want to hide.
Let's be honest.
I think they want to hide behindthis.
I'm educating people.
And it's almost a little bit
cowardly because the truth is youare the one that does all these
transactions.
As a loan officer, you're doing
transactions every single day.
You're touching files every single
day.
You're seeing scenarios every
single day.
You know what the market does.
You know what the market is goingto do.
I mean, again, we know withinreason.
We don't know what the rates aregoing to be in six months.
(27:55):
But we do know that if you look atthe last 100 years in real estate,
pretty much there's not a bad timeto buy other than maybe if you
bought in 2009.
But even then, as long as you held
long enough, you were good, right.
And so I think there's much value
to what you just talked about.
Like I don't over educate, you
said, I don't over educate them.
I just, hey, here's what we're
gonna do.
We're gonna get some information,
and then we'll figure out whatneeds to happen next.
(28:16):
That's value.
That's huge to me.
If you don't take anything awayfrom this podcast today, but that,
that is the most valuable thing isstop trying to over educate the
people because all it does isconfuse them.
And then what they're going to dois you're going to get all this
information.
And then the next loan officer
that calls them that just takestheir application and gets the
process going is going to gettheir business takes too long to
train a new loan officer.
We don't need to train our
customers to be loan officers.
We need to tell our customers
like, Hey, I know you don't dothis every day, but guess what I
(28:38):
do?You're in great hands.
We're going to look at everypossibility, leave no stone
unturned, and we'll come up withthe best solution for your
situation.
That's what clients really want to
hear is can I do it?And what's my payment?
How much do I need to come toclosing with?
Is there a way that I can come toclosing with less money?
Is there a way I can save moremoney?
Can I get a better deal becauseI'm a first-time home buyer?
Guess what?I already looked at those options.
(28:59):
These are the best options.
I looked at every possibility.
Here's how I'm going to save youthe most money.
So I do think sometimes cutting itdown and just giving them the good
news, sending them theirpre-qualitator, like, hey, by the
way, I wanted to go over thesedetails with you.
Tomorrow, we're going to send youan email with a list of items to
gather up just so that we can makesure that all the details that
you've given us match up witheverything that you've talked
about, you know?a way Yeah, because people think
(29:20):
that rate is the most importantthing.
And the reason they think that isbecause consumers are ultimately
taught that that's what theyshould care about.
Right.
But not because it actually really
matters.
Other than obviously, when we just
had these 2% rates, I thinkeverybody kind of knows I got this
2 point whatever 75 rate.
But prior to this craziness of the
2% rates, 3% rates, if you askpeople what the rate was, most
people probably don't evenremember.
Right.
And so like thinking about it from
(29:41):
that perspective, you're right.
I mean, can you afford it?
Can you afford to make a 3000 4000$2,000 payment a month as what
really matters.
I mean, and I'm assuming that's
kind of how you ask it.
Like, you know, what are you
comfortable with on a monthlybasis?
of the loan application, one ofthe questions that I do ask them
is, what is the highest paymentyou would feel comfortable making?
And so part of what we're tellingthem though, is because I'm going
to show you the options that areup to your comfort zone, as long
as you can qualify for them.
(30:02):
And then I'll usually say, hey,
this isn't your max.
It was just the max comfort zone
that we discussed.
So for some reason, you're out
there and you find the perfecthouse and that house justifies a
higher payment.
Just let me know.
And I'll just see if those numberscan work for you.
So you're there to just be thatlike, I'm now your helper.
Don't stress when you find theperfect house, reach out to me,
I'm going to run you the numberson it.
(30:22):
You can see if that's how you wantto structure your offer.
you That's amazing.
You know, again, this was super,
super valuable.
And one of the things we talk
about all the time, you know,unfortunately, salespeople, and I
don't want to just pick on loanofficers, I think it's salespeople
in general, including myself,sometimes, we're so quick to rush
past the discovery, understandingtheir situation and trying to get
to the pitch, the thing that wethink is the value, right?
Is, hey, well, I'm going to showyou all these cool things that I
(30:43):
can do, right?I'm going to show you all these
cool programs.
But the reality is like, we have
to identify what their problem,their pain point is, what they're
looking to solve, why they'relooking to solve those things as
well.
And then from there, we can decide
if we can prescribe, you know, thesolution that we have to them,
asking these questions and beingassertive and being a leader, one
of those things I feel people aretoo scared to show up as a leader
in the sales conversation becausethey don't want to label
themselves a salesperson becausethey don't want to be seen as
(31:03):
pushy.
But I think there's a balance
there.
I think there's a way to do it and
do it from a confidenceperspective and knowing versus
doing it from like, I need to getthe sale.
I'm desperate.
I need the money.
There's differences there, right?You know, pushing something into
something they shouldn't be doing.
That's unethical sales.
Now showing why it makes sense tobuy in a market, even like this,
based off of data, based off of,you know, your experience, I think
is ethical too, because guesswhat?
If they don't move forward withyou, they get a rocket mortgage
(31:25):
ad.
You think rocket mortgage is going
to care?They're going to take their
application.
They're going to charge them two
points.
They're going to whatever it is
that they do on that side.
And that's what I like to explain
to loan officers.
Like if you truly believe you're
the best at what you do as a loanofficer, then it's your ethical
obligation to get these people towork with you because they're
going to go work with someoneelse.
That other person may not care asmuch as you That other person may
(31:47):
not care as much as you do.
So I like to ask this question.
If you were to go back out there,if you're starting over or you
were telling a new loan officersome strategies on how to go out
and get business today, what wouldbe your recommendation for a loan
officer that would do that?Yeah.
So it's an easy question for me toanswer because we do have new loan
officers that have joined our teamthat are now top producing loan
officers at our company.
I mean, one of my loan assistants,
(32:07):
she closes easily 230 to 250 unitsa year on her own.
And she started as my loanassistant.
She worked at Chick-fil-A.
She was a customer online.
And she became one of my loanassistants, best loan assistant
I've ever had.
Phenomenal loan assistant.
Another one was a salesperson.
He actually sold for our builder
and we are the preferred lenderfor him.
And he was a salesperson.
He said, I want to come do your
side of things.
And I was like, oh, no, you don't.
Like, don't do it.
You know, I tried to talk him out
(32:29):
of it.
He wouldn't let me but now I mean,
he's somebody who closes 250 to300 units a year.
And what I kind of told him wasall the same thing is, whenever
you do have a deal, make sure youcommunicate with both sides.
That's another opportunity to getanother agent's business, right?
Be really good at showing thatrelationship, how you do that
process, you get to show both ofthem, it was a freebie, right?
(32:49):
Getting out of whatever thefeeding frenzy is.
So if your community has lots ofloan officers, find another
community that doesn't and drivethere, start taking information in
there, finding those realtors onFacebook, setting up lunches
whenever you can.
And so that's how they built their
business was essentially justgetting out there and then just
trying to multiply everyopportunity they had to grow their
businesses.
So getting out there and then just
trying to multiply everyopportunity they had to grow their
businesses.
So getting out byways and byways,
Josh, I'm just going to say withina two hour radius, he would do a
(33:11):
circuit of driving through ruralKansas, rural Missouri, and he
would just drive and like stop byrealtor offices and just visit
with whoever was there.
And he picked up a lot of those
offices just by showing up andbeing somebody who was good to
their word, fast, efficient.
I feel like maybe lots of people
stop by and they're like, okay,here's a pie.
All right, bye or one Be or It'sactually about going in and
developing relationships.
(33:32):
Probably one of my largest
referral partners I would neverexpect is in rural Kansas.
The community has only banks, nomortgage competition, and they
have a huge hospital in thislittle rural Kansas community.
What's the hospital?Nurses and doctors.
Guess what?We do a ton of loans there.
If I was rebuilding my business, Iwould be finding where is that
demographic profile?Banks, no mortgage companies.
Why?Because I think mortgage companies
are not a jack of all trades likethe bank is.
They are geared to do one thingreally, really well.
(33:52):
And that's mortgages.
And so I feel like that's my
biggest competition is othermortgage companies.
So I want to go to a communitythat has less competition, that
has banks that are doing thingsslow, not doing all the loan
programs, and who has a lot ofindustry.
So maybe they have some factories,manufacturing, hospitals, schools.
Those are the things that I'mlooking for.
If I was going to target acommunity and be like, I'm going
to go there.
I'm going to make that community
my community.
I'm going to go make myself
present.
We have a community champion
program.
It's where we give discounted
closing costs to people who are inlike 911 call centers,
(34:14):
firefighters, could be actuallyanybody who works at the school.
It could be the secretary.
It doesn't matter.
But even if I just drop by likecupcakes or drinks or something
like, hey, guys, just wanted totreat you something.
This is who I am like just goingto making yourself part of that
community.
You can adopt a community
anywhere.
So you can become that community's
lender.
I just pick one that you didn't
have somebody else doing the samething right behind you.
(34:35):
So getting away from the feedingfrenzy and going out and business
development, developing thatbusiness for Guess what?
And so It you got to work?Is that what you're You do got to
do a little work, especially atthe beginning.
So you can build it up enough.
Yeah, it does work for you.
I mean, I'm super grateful for it.
But that's the spot that I feel
I'm at now is I don't have to goout and be quite so active in
that.
But that's still a very enjoyable
space.
Sure.
Going out and doing that work andletting people know like, why
(34:58):
should you trust me with thatbusiness specifically versus
giving out three names ordifferent things like that.
I tell agents giving out threenames just confuses people.
Just tell people like, hey, I havemultiple referral partners that I
could give you.
Why don't you give Ron a call, see
how that goes.
And if we need to get you with
somebody else, we will.
You've done your responsibility to
say that there's multipleopportunities that can help them,
(35:20):
but helping guide them to createlike a confused buyer is not a
buyer, they're going to start toslow down in their process.
We want to keep them comfortableand moving forward.
So yeah, realtor education totheir to keep them comfortable and
moving forward.
So yeah, realtor education to
their confused mind never buys.
And so that's huge.
And I agree.
We talked about niching, right?
I mean, you just talked about it,the heroes of the community.
Like we love that angle.
(35:40):
We do that from our paid ads
perspective, You can do itorganically, right?
Go in, create flyers for openhouses.
And you talked about discountedclosing costs.
You work with an agent that iswilling to give some sort of a
credit if you're in a market thatallows that.
I know some states don't allowthat.
But if you're in a market thatallows that, partner together and
start marketing together a productfor heroes or a program for
(36:03):
heroes, right?I mean, think about Homes for
Heroes.
That's just a discount program.
It doesn't have to be a discount,but it's just, hey, how do we get
in front of these niches?And we talk about riches in the
niches, things like that.
But I think so many times we want
to focus, well, what if I do that?Then do I not get the other loans?
(36:24):
It's like, well, you talked aboutbeing a VA specialist to that one
person.
And so you get her VA loans, but
I'm sure most people are sendingyou all their loans, not just VA
loans, right?true.
So doesn't mean you don't get theother loans.
It just means that you are able tohave a concise message when you're
having conversations with people.
So again, not confusing people,
right?Oh, I do USD and I do VA and I do
(36:44):
FHA and I do this and that.
Okay, cool.
So you're like everybody else.
What makes you stand out from
everybody else?And I think that's the big thing
you were talking about there andfinding communities that don't
have as much competition is abrilliant idea because so many
people are like, well, I livehere.
So I want to do business here.
And it's like, well, you're
licensed in the whole state.
I mean, so many people are so
(37:05):
resistant to doing business.
And I was like, most loan officers
these days are not going to theclosings.
Most loan officers these days arenot meeting people in person.
So like what makes you think thatyou have to be in person?
I get it.
Like it's easier to go see your
realtors local, but you don't evenhave to do that.
You can use zoom or doing zoomright here.
Everybody that I've pretty muchmet in the country is all been via
zoom.
Like I've, none of my team members
are even in my office.
(37:27):
I literally have zero people in my
office.
I have 16 people on the team and
they're all across the entirenation.
There's no reason you don't haveto be in person.
Technology has changed a lot.
So I think there's tons of value
in this podcast.
For me, my biggest takeaways from
today's is, I mean, you talked alot about process.
Obviously you have both sides.
You did great at sales.
We started out with a lot of theprocess oriented stuff.
So if you are a loan officer, itmaybe doesn't fit that sort of
(37:49):
systems oriented mindset.
My recommendation is you need to
do that.
You need to create a process.
You need to create a You process.
need to create a consistent
process.
I know it sucks.
I know it's going to feel likeyou're washing paint dry, but
implementing processes for me, I'mADHD.
So I have to block my calendar.
So I block my calendar.
I have blocks.
I get stuff done.
Even then I don't get stuff done,but I try as much as I can because
(38:09):
if it's not on my calendar, itdoesn't exist for me personally.
That's what works for me.
What works for Rhonda may not work
for you, or it may work for you.
So thinking about it from that
perspective, what works for you,but you have to create systems.
You have to have a process whereyou can keep track of people,
whether it be a CRM, Trello,literally a spreadsheet, you can
use a spreadsheet for now.
I mean, whatever it is, something
that you can track, keep notes, beconsistent over time.
And then the second half of this,we talked about sales, do the
(38:32):
work.
I mean, at the end of the day is
doing the work, being consistent,but it's also doing the things you
say you're going to do honoringyour word, being a person of
integrity that finishes what theysay they're going to do.
And then also that does it fastand does it well be perfecting
your craft.
I'm sure you're always learning
things every single day, eventhough you've been doing this for,
I mean, you said 2010, I think yousaid you got in the business,
right?So years.
Five.
Oh, five.
Oh, that's right.
That's right.
So even longer, right?So that's 21 years now you've been
(38:54):
in the industry and no, almost 19years, I guess.
I don't know.
I don't know how to do math.
What am I doing public math forhere?
A long time.
You've been doing mortgages for a
long time and I'm sure you'relearning things every single day.
So any last parting words for thelisteners here?
I say you're very blessed to getto be in the industry that you're
in.
And it's not like you can just go
to college and be like, I'm goingto be a mortgage loan officer.
(39:14):
And so just be a really goodsteward of that blessing.
Just go out and take really goodcare of people.
And that's every person in theprocess, the title company, the
realtor, the customer, and yourstaff.
So I just felt like that's theweight that we get to carry is
just being really good at this jobthat we were blessed to get to do.
I so mean, there's not too manyindustries where you can make the
type of money you can make in thisindustry and have kind of an
unlimited cap in income withouthaving a degree, without having to
(39:35):
go to 20 years of school and allthat kind of stuff like doctors
and attorneys and a lot of theseother industries do.
Sales is a blessing, but it canalso be stressful.
So if you're going to be in thisindustry, make as much money as
you can.
Obviously do it in the right way.
But I think if you're in thisindustry and you're not making at
least six figures, man, that's alot of stress to deal with, to not
make a bunch of money.
And again, help people.
And I think obviously you can tellthat Rhonda helps people and cares
and it's paid off in spades.
(39:56):
So that's awesome.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
If someone wanted to connect withyou, I don't know if you're
looking to hire whatever, youknow, if someone to connect with
you online or learn more about,you know, your team, where can
they find some more So my name iswithout an H. So it's R-O-N-D-A.
So if you're Googling me orlooking for me that way, it'd be
R-O-N-D-A.
And then my last name, Hickey, you
can find me on Facebook.
And usually every single one of my
(40:18):
posts, I will say this is one morething I could tell your listeners
is if they're going to make aFacebook post that has to do with
their business, always make sureyou include your contact
information.
I see a ton of loan officers will
make this great post and they'relike, reach out to me.
I'd love to help you with this.
And we don't actually include a
way to reach out to them.
So every single one of my public
(40:39):
related posts for my business arealways going to include my cell
phone number and my email addressso they can reach out to me that
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or I mean, the other thing is atleast say, send me a DM, right?
You know, like at least tell themexactly what to do.
They get caught in that otherinbox.
Oh, that's true.
If they're not a friend.
Yeah.
If they're not a friend, then that
can be a problem.
But yeah, I agree.
I mean, you got to have some sortof call to action and you have to
(40:59):
be pretty precise, right?People think they can kind of have
this as broad.
Like, oh, reach out to me.
It's like, well, how?Like, tell me exactly how to do
it, right?how to do it, right?
Don't make it hard, make it easy.
You want to make it the easiest
way possible.
it Yep, absolutely agreed.
And thank you so much for yourtime today, Rhonda.
It was amazing.
Honestly, the discovery process,
what you talked about with notover-educating, I really liked
that part.
That was really something I talk
(41:20):
about a lot, but something that Ithink loan officers need to hear a
little bit more is like education.
I think they think is a good thing
and it is to a certain extent, butit also confuses people.
And like we said, confused mindnever buys.
So thank you so much for your timetoday.
And if you are a loan officer justlooking for some help marketing
and flipping the status quo onreal estate agents, go to
flipthestatus the status quo.comthank you so much for listening
and have a great day
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