Carrying Criminal Justice Debt

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Navigating the American criminal justice system can feel like being shackled to a ghost—its penalties linger long after time served. That's what we're unpacking today on Lockdown Legacy, with a focus on the often unseen anchor of criminal justice debt. As Remie  and Debbie weave in the transformative journeys of those entangled in a system where financial burdens act as invisible bars, long after release.

The shadow of collateral sanctions casts a long, dark shape across the land of the free. We celebrate the strides of friends emerging from incarceration, but we also acknowledge the steep climb they face, weighed down by punitive debts. From the garnished wages of a Californian health aide to the seemingly interminable probation debt of a Kansas teenager, we confront a system that demands a pound of flesh in fines and fees, often crippling the very citizens it purports to rehabilitate. These aren't just tales of injustice; they're a call to acknowledge the individuals caught in a merciless cycle of debt.

Our closing thoughts turn to the "pay-to-stay" phenomenon, a fiscal maze that entraps former inmates with bills for their bed and board behind bars. With insights from the Vera Institute, we challenge the stark disparities that these practices amplify, and advocate for legal reform with the same fervor we apply to our Whole30 pursuits. It's not just about identifying the cracks in the system—it's about laying the foundation for a system that supports, rather than punishes, its most vulnerable. Tune in for an episode that's as much about the heart as it is about change.

Articles from this episode are listed below:
-Vera Institute main article:
https://www.governing.com/policy/the-long-and-unequal-burden-of-criminal-justice-debt
Vera Institute supporting article:
https://www.vera.org/publications/a-matter-of-time

Please, if you guys would like to help out with Remie's friend Katie who is currently in ICU fighting for her life, please consider donating at the following GoFundMe link:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-katies-fight-mother-

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Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I am co-host Debbie Jones.
We are a husband and wife teamhere to bring you the real life
stories, experiences andquestions around the American
criminal justice system.
We do advise discretion withthis podcast.
I think we should put that outthere first and foremost.
Yes, we are going to talk aboutexperiences that happen inside
the prison system, outside ofprison systems.

(00:46):
We will use language that mightbe offensive, but we intend to
keep it real.
And if that's not for you, wetotally understand, but please
do what's best for yourlistening ears.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh, we're about to keep it real, son.
Our goal of this podcast is toshare the inside realities of
the American prison and criminaljustice system, from
pre-charges all the way topost-release, from the voices of
those who've experienced itfirsthand, including me.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
That's right, we're going to get into it.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
What's up everybody?
Welcome back to another episodeof Lockdown Legacy.
As usual, I'm your host, remyJones.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
I am co-host Debbie Jones.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
The beautiful, the talented, the smartest person I
know and the person I'm so happyand fortunate to have in my
life.
Please excuse my rickety chair.
You guys are going to hear thata lot throughout this episode,
but that's all right.
Man Big Boss decided to takethe comfy chair.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, it's my turn.
I always have to sit in thatchair you deserve it.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
She doesn't sit in this chair all the time.
You guys never hear this chair.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Does that say more about me or you?

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Anyways, just a quick share of what's going on in our
lives.
We are on a weight loss journey.
We talked about it for a whileAt the end of last year.
We got some physicals done forwork and decided that we needed

(02:30):
some lifestyle changes.
Of course, the researcher overhere, dj, decided hey, here's
this whole 30 diet we should try, and me being a husband, I was
like yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
I'd like to offer some corrections.
I don't think it's a weightloss journey so much as a
lifestyle change.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
I wouldn't call it a diet, but I didn't come up with
that plan Changing our diet, notgoing on a diet.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
My blood draws showed potential allergens and so I
was told to cut out things likegluten and dairy for a little
bit to see what was causing theallergies.
Friend of the pod.
Marsha, my friend was actuallythe person who recommended the
whole 30 and starting there.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
Oh, which made me look like an ass.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
I got to cut that out .

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Either way, I got some secondhand information.
Dj's the one that passed alongto me and was like, hey, we
should do this.
She did tell me it came fromMarsha, so my bad for that
oversight, but either way, I'mglad we started it.
This is supposed to be like a30 day thing, hence the name

(03:48):
Whole30.
I'm actually consideringprolonging it.
Man, the changes have beenastounding.
At the three week mark, whichwe're not supposed to do, but I,
being ever so curious, weighedmyself and I was mind boggled.

(04:10):
I thought it was a mistake.
My scales broke because afterthree weeks I had lost 17 pounds
and hadn't even worked out.
I saw diet change and makingbetter, healthier choices.
That's amazing.
I used to be really intoworking out and I've done some

(04:32):
extreme things to lose weightand I've never lost 17 pounds in
three weeks.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
The Whole30 is.
I mean for those who areinterested, as always.
If you're not, this is SkippersParadise.
Please go ahead and skip onforward to our program and
content.
We're going to do better.
We know that we said we weregoing to take breaks and then we
didn't really implement that.
There will be a pause before westart our content so that folks

(04:59):
know that's where you pick upand hit play again.
Accessibility.
Anyway, the Whole30 is.
I don't know, some folks mightfind it restrictive, but you
remove gluten, you remove dairy,you remove alcohol.
Whole30 requires removal ofthings like beans and corn Wheat

(05:20):
yeah, wheat.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
And basically anything with a scientific name
on the label and the ingredientssection.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
As well as added sugar.
So those are some pretty bigthings.
So when I told my dad that thisis what we were doing, he was
like so what do you eat?
He was like you cut outeverything, so what do you eat?
But we've eaten a lot of reallygreat things.
This is a non-paid shout out toButcherBox.
They do not sponsor us in anyway, shape or form, but we have

(05:51):
been getting a ButcherBoxsubscription for the last two
months and they're great.
They deliver really great cutsof meat that don't have
preservatives, meats that areuncured, things like that, so
you're not getting any of thatadded sugar into those cuts of
meat.
So we eat meat and we pair itwith two veggies.

(06:13):
Pretty regularly For lunchesI've been prepping dairy-free
soups, so this week we had anItalian wedding soup, which is
one of my favorite soups.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
It was really good.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, it was one of my favorite soups generally, but
we've done some other things.
There are other ways to addcream to a potato soup and
things like that, so we found alot of really good recipes.
I think we learned pretty earlyon when we were doing our
grocery shopping that it'sreally hard to find things that

(06:45):
don't have added ingredients orthat don't have sugar in them.
There are a lot of things thatyou wouldn't think would have
sugar, or shouldn't really havesugar, that had sugar in them
Sausage.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
I mean, there was like really weird stuff was like
sugar added.
And I just couldn't understandwhy.
Because that should only be oneingredient.
Have like 10 ingredients.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
I mean especially things like frozen veggies.
You think you'd be safe justbuying a bag of frozen
vegetables, but there were allkinds of additional things in it
to preserve the life of yourfrozen vegetables, and so it was
like, okay, we're better offjust getting the fresh version
and making it ourselves.
So it's taken a lot of research, I guess, but it's been

(07:28):
manageable.
I haven't felt overwhelmed withnot having food options.
We have plenty to snack on.
We're eating like nuts, driedfruit, rx bars, lara bars.
There's a lot of apples,bananas.
I eat a banana every day.
I still drink my coffee in themorning.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
I eat a lot of mixed nuts, dried fruit.
My dad, when I told him aboutit he was pretty shocked too.
Like well, that's a lot oflabel reading.
And it was like, really, it wasa lot of label reading in like
the first week.
There was a lot of cravings inthe first week.
By the time we got to like weektwo, and then, especially a

(08:10):
week three, it was like, man, Ihaven't even thought about
sweets, like I'm making food formy kids, and in week one I was
tempted to take a bite or eat itif they didn't want to eat it,
or whatever.
By week three it was like, yeah, go ahead and get rid of that
and put this over here, and itwas just like not even a thought
to be tempted by it.

(08:30):
I can't honestly say the onlydirty thing I did was check the
crumble app.
They just drool over theircookie advertisement and just
like put it away Like I hopenobody saw that, but anyway,
it's been a great, great journey, man.

(08:51):
The health benefits are great.
I've noticed even like animprovement in my memory and my
energy and like my cravings andstuff.
I virtually have no cravingsanymore and if I do, instead of
making a bad choice like I getone of those RX bars or lower
bars.
They're basically just fruityou know, and it cures that

(09:14):
sweets craving.
But other than that, you stillwant to go into that some more
Mm-mm.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Well, other than that we're feeling good.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
Our oldest daughter is doing great.
She finally decided to do swimcompetitively and she's rocking
it.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, I was really thrilled.
She had a meet last weekend andeverybody came.
We are very, very fortunate tohave so much family close by, so
we had lots of grandparentsthere, siblings came.
You were able to get off ofwork in time to see an event.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
And then my aunt came , which this is my trigger
warning particularly to my aunt,as she is a listener of the
podcast that you may want toskip ahead a couple of minutes,
because I do want to thank ourlisteners.
So here's your cue.
I would like to thank ourlisteners for I don't know, just

(10:11):
thinking of us, sending yourprayers, your love, your support
, your checking in just to seehow we're doing after the loss
of my uncle a few weeks ago.
I've said it a lot to folks inthe last few weeks that grief is
not linear.
Some days are good and otherdays are bad, and I see that

(10:34):
with my aunt and with my parentsand just people who loved my
uncle, and I think that they'regoing to come points as the year
goes on I mean, in as manyyears from now go on that it's
going to be like man, he shouldreally be here to experience

(10:54):
this thing, or it's not the samewithout him.
But right now we're just kindof continuing to cling to each
other and my aunt came to ouroldest daughter's swim meet and
our daughter called her andasked her personally to come and
was like I really want toinvite her to come and watch and

(11:16):
I didn't expect her to feel upto that or anything like that.
But she came and it was reallygreat to spend some time with
her like that and, you know, putaside the sadness and things
like that for just a little bitto really cheer her on and spend
time together and go out to eatand all of that.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
So thank you everybody for your support too,
and that and us dealing withthat and the family.
Before we move on to brightersubjects, I would like to ask
your support once again.
I have a really close friendfrom my previous employment and

(11:59):
he's currently his family iscurrently going through some
stuff right now.
His girlfriend, who happens tobe pregnant, just suffered a
brain aneurysm and stroke andshe was found out collapsed in
the snow trying to shovel thedriveway.
So that is really intense,especially after you know what

(12:23):
we've been going through in ourfamily just recently.
There's currently a go fund mefor her family and you know she
has other kids and stuff.
So if you guys could, please,I'll post the link in the show
notes and I'll also post them onevery other episode too.
So if you could, you knowanything that you guys would

(12:45):
like to donate please, it'd bevery well received and
appreciated.
And also, you know, if youcould give out prayers you know
thoughts, positive thoughts,whatever that'd be great.
And in the in the go fund mepost, it'll give some more
background and everything aboutthem.

(13:06):
So I won't, you know, repeat ithere, but I guess that's it.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
If you're thinking about Warren too.
He is recovering.
This was, this is normallyWarren's spot, and so maybe you
have started to hit play, dearlistener, and you were like
these are not the people that Isigned up to hear this week and
you were ready for Warren, andwe understand, we were ready for
Warren too, but he's feelingunder the weather a little bit,
and so we're going to give hisvocal some time in his body,

(13:36):
some time to just just arrest usas he should, and hopefully
next week he'll be back with hisyou know, bi-monthly wisdom for
us all.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
So onto a little bit more positive news.
Before we get to the subject, Istill want to give a little
more updates.
I got a couple of friends onthe inside that are very hopeful
for getting out.
One of them just got his phasetwo hearing, so he'll be back in
court to get an early release.
No one just got out after doing14 years.

(14:10):
So shout out to them, and I'mlooking forward to see good
stuff for him.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, reentry is hard .
I think what your friends havethe benefit of is you, and I
think that that's really helpfulto try to navigate, especially
when somebody's done a long timein prison.
What do you call that?
Doing a bid?

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, we did the bid.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yep, now you know this next phase is tricky too,
but a lot of great things goingon with folks on the inside, and
so any chance we get we'regoing to amplify those things.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, and the small accomplishments are pretty big
accomplishments.
When you first get home, youknow stuff like finding housing
and finding a job, gettingclothing it's like that's huge,
especially after doing, you know, a decade or more.
So when we shine lights on that, you know, please don't think

(15:13):
that it's not a big deal,because it really is so.
Okay, we'll leave that behindand we'll get to another section
, the subject of today's episode.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
And here's where we will pause.
And now we're back.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
And now we're back.
Thanks for sticking around.
If you skip, that's all right,but here we are.
The subject for today's episodeis actually I don't even know
what to call it.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
But basically I would call it the burden of criminal
justice debt.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yes, the burden of criminal justice debt.
That was a pretty good thingyou did there, which is just
looking at the title of thearticle Right On these notes
that we have All right.
So we're rating from an articleactually two articles from the
Vera Institute of Justice, whichyou guys know is going to be,

(16:23):
you know, a resource of ourspretty regularly.
They do pretty solid researchand always have something good
to talk about.
So this article, of course, isabout the burden of criminal
justice debt, and it issomething that is often not seen
when you look at the sentencingaspect of criminal justice.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
And we did an episode close to the beginning of the
podcast called collateralsanctions.
And so there was a little bitof this discussion in this, but
we wanted to obliter, we wantedto devote, I guess, some
intentional time to coveringthis specific collateral
sanction.
And before we jump in, do youwant to define collateral
sanction?

Speaker 1 (17:09):
So collateral sanctions are basically the
consequences that you have todeal with from you know the
fallout of committing a crimeand being sentenced that don't
fall in with the purview of yoursentence.
For instance, having to checkthe box when you go for

(17:29):
employment telling them thatyou're a felon, or when you have
to check the box when you gofor housing, or you know not
being able to own firearms.
You know having to deal withcourt costs, fines and etc.
Those are all consideredcollateral sanctions.
It is guaranteed that you willhave some if you go through a

(17:51):
criminal justice system.
You cannot avoid them in anyway.
But they're not really what'sthe word.
It's not a cookie cutter thing.
It's not consistent from personto person.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Or state to state, or crime to crime, or, you know,
local state, federal charge.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
And that's very unfortunate because that makes
it very vague when you come towonder what to expect.
For instance, there is I readan article I can't remember what
it was on but they were talkingabout sex offenders in Florida.
And of course, when people hearsex offenders, of course you

(18:39):
lose all sympathy, right.
But you know, if you put thecrime aside and you say, okay,
they did their time and they'recoming home, you know, everybody
knows about a sex offenderregistry Well, there are so many
places in Florida where theycan't live, or if they're moving
in and the neighbor complainsso they have to move out, that

(19:01):
basically they started a wholelike homeless village you know,
and the state kind of likedidn't want to do anything about
it because they were violatingtheir probation terms by doing
this, by not having a place tostay where their probation
officer could come and check upon them.

(19:22):
So the state kind of just turneda blind eye and left them build
this village of homeless peopleand even encouraged their POs
to like go and check up on themthere.
Wow, so when you talk about theextremes of collateral damage,
like you know, that's it.
And in other cases it's likelike we're talking about now

(19:44):
court costs and fines when itcomes to not being consistent.
In my case alone, I got like$5,000 worth of court costs and
fines and my I can't call them aco-defendant because we didn't
share the case but a person Igot in trouble with who were on

(20:07):
the very same charges, or verysimilar charges, got like
$50,000 worth of court costs andfines and it's like how does
that happen?
How do two people who virtuallycommit the same crimes get such
drastically different sentences?
Right, you know, and it'sbasically like you're at the
mercy of the judge, theprosecutor and whatever they see
fit.
If they think you have moreresources, you know, like the

(20:31):
only way to get out of it is tobe seen as indigent in the
court's eyes, which means likeyou can't afford it.
You know you got a court to paya appointed lawyer and whatever
else, but if you have a paidlawyer you can't be considered
indigent.
So instantly, once you have acourt of a paid lawyer, you're
getting hit with court costs andfines because they want to

(20:53):
recoup the cost of prosecutingyou.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Right.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
If you have a defined victim and they decide that
they want you to pay restitutionto a victim, especially if it's
a property crime, then they'recharging that straight to you.
If you crash somebody's car andthey say, oh, you got to pay
$50,000 in restitution eventhough that person only paid a
$500 deductible, like that'sgoing on you and they make you

(21:22):
pay while you're in prison.
They take the money out of yourstate pay and any money that
hits your books and then theyalso make you pay when you get
home.
And that's another place wherewe're talking about the
inconsistencies from state tostate.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
And so terms you might hear as we continue to
talk about this are legalfinancial obligations, which are
LFOs, but you also might hearstatute of limitation, which is
S-O-L.
And then when we're thinkingabout these criminal justice
debts, we're talking about thosecriminal fines, those fees,
those restitutions, and really,you know, as Remy was describing

(21:59):
these different incidences, Ithink it's easy to fall into the
category of so you did thecrime, you got to pay that back,
right.
But what we're talking about Ithink we could liken to student
debt.
Maybe I think what mostindividuals who are arguing for
student debt relief are arguingfor is not that individual
shouldn't have to pay back moneythat they borrowed.

(22:21):
But then, when you add interestin all of these fines and fees
on top of that, people areliterally so poor that they have
two or three jobs to make thatstudent loan payment.
Similarly, with criminal fees,with restitution, these things,
there is no statute oflimitation or S-O-L on that.

(22:43):
So as long as you owe it, youhave it to pay back, even if
your checks are being garnishedand things like that, it's again
kind of paying this consumerdebt minimum.
So if you think of that studentloan or that credit card
payment where these fines aregetting stacked on top of each
other, it's very, very difficultto pay back, and one of the
things that stuck out to me isthe median statute of limitation

(23:07):
for criminal fines and fees is40 years 40.
While the median statute oflimitation for civil judgment is
10 years.
So it's like these really,really big periods of time where
you have to pay back this thing, and if it's drawn out over 40

(23:29):
years, there are just people whoare getting their paychecks
garnished for decades or havingto do other things to make sure
that this debt gets paid,because if it doesn't, then
what's your favorite thing totalk about?

Speaker 1 (23:45):
Or set ofism, you will get what's called a
technical violation on yourprobation If you're on active
probation or parole and youcan't pay.
I think it's like two months Ifyou get two months behind,
you're automatically inviolation.
But when you're talking about 40years, like obviously you're

(24:07):
not on probation or paroleanymore and yet you still are
under the pressure to pay or goback to prison for something you
could have done 35 years agoand I always like to look at it
as the person I was 10 years agois not the person I am today.

(24:27):
Anything I did 10 years ago likeif you're still holding that
against me, like shame on you,and no judge or prosecutor looks
at it like that.
Like if I held every judge andprosecutor to the standards of
who they were when they were 19,going through college, having
raves and drinking too much,underage drinking, whatever else

(24:47):
, and I said okay, that definesyour character for the rest of
your life.
All of them will be shamed.
And yet here I am as a 60 yearold, possibly like damn, if I
can't make this payment, likeI'm going to go back to prison.
And so now you're making aperson who could have possibly

(25:10):
totally changed their lives in apositive manner, start to
consider negative possibilities.
They're like well, damn whatcan.
I do to get some money realquick so I can pay this.
Fine, Now you got peoplecommitting crimes again just so
they could pay the judge.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
That actually came up in the survey is folks who are
anonymously surveyed in there-entry side of things were
saying I have had to commitcrimes to pay money for my crime
, my original crime, because Ididn't have enough and had to
decide between things likepaying my essentials for myself

(25:49):
or my family or missing thispayment over here.
So it's it's.
People are faced with thesereally big crossroads and,
unlike things like civil debt orconsumer debt, there is no
bankruptcy option.
There is no repayment plan orincome driven repayment plans or

(26:09):
like save plans or student loanforgiveness plan, like there is
no way to say hey, thishappened 30 years ago and I'm
still continuing to pay it and Ican't get out from underneath
of this.
What options do I have?
The options are you don't haveany.
Your paycheck continues to getgarnished until the state, the

(26:33):
federal government, the whomevergets what they are.
Quote-unquote owed and this.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
This is interesting because In this study by the
Vera Institute, they Uncoveredthat states don't actually have
financial gain off of pursuingpeople for these debts.
Oftentimes they spend moremoney than what is owed to

(27:02):
collect them.
And when you're talking aboutsomebody you know, 20, 30 years
out, they're like dude, youdon't get that money.
When you get it, I mean becausethe state I mean everybody know
the government, they governmentwant theirs, right, so they
don't give a fuck what's goingon in your life.
They don't care if you got kids.
They don't care about yourpersonal consumer debt.

(27:24):
They don't care if, oh, oh,your kids going to college, you
just pay no care, like, oh, yougoing through a divorce, I don't
care.
You lost your job, I do notcare.
Oh, you got child support comingout of your check already too.
Well, we're gonna take oursfirst.
You know, and it's not basedoff of how much you panning

(27:44):
child support, okay, how muchyou making.
It's like nah, we want this.
You know, however much a monthif you can't afford that and if
that makes it so that you can'teat literally you can't buy
groceries, they don't care.
You know, which is veryunfortunate, because Me
personally, if I loaned you somemoney and I knew that the cost

(28:06):
of paying it back would makeyour kids starve.
I'd be like man, don't worryabout it.
You know, you know but you knowthat's not how it works and
instead of relieving that debt,we would rather go and spill,
spend millions on, you know,helping starving children and
underprivileged homes, while weare the reason why they are

(28:31):
underprivileged, you know?
Anyway, I don't know.
Here are two examples given inthis article and one of them
says you know, in Alabama Amilitary veteran bears the
burden of a 20 year old criminaljustice debt that has only
increased since it was imposed.
Also in California, home healthaides he's her paycheck garnish

(28:54):
for a decade to pay back costsof her time spent in jail.
That is stupid.
And also they give a thirdexample of a, a high school
student in Kansas, who accruesjuvenile probation debt that
will never expire right.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
So this is impacting children too, like that's the.
That's the reality of it, and Ialso think that you know what
benefit is this right?
Because you've already talkedabout the states don't really
Consider these pieces ofrestitution, these fines that
they're imposing.
I mean, I'm not talking aboutvictim restitution, so I want to

(29:34):
make that really clear.
I'm talking about the fines andfees in restitution that the
state claims that they are owedor the federal Government claims
that they are owed, like thesecomponents for a court-appointed
lawyer, right for having to seta court date.
These Dollars don't typicallyimpact the Courts themselves,

(29:55):
right?
They're not paying personnelwith that, they're not covering
their overhead with these things.
So A what's not clear in thestudy is what do those fees then
go for?
Right, like, how are thosethings actually broken up and
what?
What line item in a budget isthat?
So that's a question mark forme.
But also, I mean, it couldn't begood that criminal debt exists,

(30:19):
right, like neither for thedebt holders themselves or the
collectors.
So one might think it'sideological and there's a
disparity with that.
But what the Vera Institutefound was that was just not the
case.
They found no relationshipbetween a state's incarceration
rate or its partisan leaning.

(30:40):
So there isn't any drive therefrom a red side or a blue side.
You know those invisible linesthat very much exists, like, for
example, they they talk aboutthat there are deep red, red
states that have brief repaymentperiods and then deep blue
states with really, reallylaborious ones and many, many
combinations in between.

(31:00):
So, as we said at the top, ofthe content is there is no
consistency, which is a Fault inand of itself when we talk
about equitable Criminal justicereform.
This is one of the big pieces,because when it's messy, when it
is ambiguous, when there is nostandard, it's really hard to

(31:24):
make any change.
It's really hard to Advocateagainst, because who are you
advocating against?
Colorado, new Mexico?
Know who you're going after.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Whose fault is this petition to?

Speaker 2 (31:40):
like in your example, those are two individuals that
are sentenced almost at the sametime in Ohio, in the same court
by the same judge, right so?

Speaker 1 (31:49):
well, actually no, we had different judges.
That's why I said we weren'tactually co-defendants on the
same case.
We had different judges andeverything but even though show
the exact point of inconsistency, right?
Because if one judge is likeman, this is a messed up
situation you guys were involvedin and you were just misguided

(32:10):
youth, yeah.
And the other judge is like I'mgoing tough on crime because I
want to get elected again.
Yeah and they're like I'm gonnamake you pay, that you know
right.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
And so it's these inconsistencies in the same
quarter, in the same state, inyou.
So it's those things are whatmake this really hard to combat
and what makes it, excuse me,worse is that many states Don't
even have any kind of LFOstatutes To rely on, so there
isn't a precedent.

(32:39):
It's solely up tointerpretation of those who are,
you know, setting therestitution, which make it
really really difficult.
That's exactly what we'redescribing here.
So when, when it's messy, whenit's Unclear, when there is no
like okay, if I say this, then Ifollow this line to hear on the
flow chart or whatever.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
It makes this completely inequitable as a
practice and it makes it totallyimpossible to Petition relief
because you have absolutely nocase law to quote.
Mm-hmm you know, basicallyyou're going to another judge
and saying please don't thinklike that judge, thought like
can you please help me?
You know right, instead ofbeing like hey, they didn't go

(33:24):
by this rule and this guidelineand this section, you know,
there's really nowhere to pointto and that's really messed up.
And it's really messed up.
And I one of the things Ithought was really interesting
in this article is that theyfound that in states that had

(33:48):
shorter statues of limitations,there was more repayment than in
states with longer statuesStatues of limitations.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Well, to me that's much that's based on motivation,
right Like if I know I got adebt for 40 years.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, you like I got time, I'm not worried.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Or I'm, or I'm pissed about it like I mean.
You'll get your money when youget your money right.
Like there is no, there's nomotivator there for me to try to
pay it off early.
There's no, there's no.
Okay, I can see the light atthe end of the tunnel because in
five years from now, this willall be over, or anything like
that like you take away people'sdrive and motivation to want to

(34:28):
see this off of their plate.
When you say we don't have AnSLL for this, like it's just,
whenever it's paid back, it'spaid back, I would be like,
alright.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
Well, to make an interesting point, already more
interesting, at the end of thestatute, the limitations, even
if you have been paying, theywrite off the remainder of it.
They just totally dismissed thedebt.
So if you got you know 30 grandto pay back and you've been
paying, you know $300 a month,and then you're like, oh, I just

(35:01):
got an income tax return here'syou know two hundred two
thousand dollars or whatever,and then you hit the end of the
statute limitations, you stillgot a Ten grand balance.
They're like, don't worry aboutit, which is awesome because
even though you've been on topof it, you feel like, whoo man,
that's what's up.
But if you're that person who'sbeen like, dude, it's a 40 year

(35:23):
statute of limitations and it'sbeen 30 years and now I can't
pay in or tumble to send me back, do you're like man fucking?

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Discounting the states that have unlimited in
terms of their statutes oflimitation for Fines and fees.
Again, I'm not talking aboutrestitution to a victim here,
solely about these fines andfees component.
There are several.
Do you want to count those realquick?
How many have unlimited here?
That's a.
That is a Quick, can you?

Speaker 1 (35:54):
count.
So there's just different,though there's unlimited for
fines and fees and there'sunlimited for restitution.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Oh, I'm just talking fines and fees.
I believe in you.
You can do this.
While you do that, I'm gonnasay that the one that has the
longest SOL, that's defined isokay.
So there are 27 unlimited.
Okay.
Back to what I was saying.

(36:21):
The one that has the longest,that's defined, is 65 years, 65
years and that is the state ofIowa.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
Who the fuck came up with that number?

Speaker 2 (36:38):
I'm not sure, like, why didn't they just make it
unlimited, if they were gonna goas high as 65, virginia is not
much better, there's a 60.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
So I read that I was kind of disappointed as your
home state.
Now I was gotta go back homeand let them know that that's
ridiculous but I've long knownthat Virginia, and actually most
Commonwealth states in general,have some really just
ridiculous laws.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
So I think that as we begin to think about this you
know, the components we haven'ttalked about are from an equity
lens, as we have long preachedon this podcast as long as
existed in All kinds of researchall over the place we have to
think about race in terms ofdisproportionality in prison

(37:28):
Rates.
We know that black and brownbodies are Largely the prison
population, disproportionatelyso, and as research tells us,
for things that are Less Intense, what's the severe?
Severe, then white counterparts,and I think that's really

(37:51):
important to continue to bringto the focus, because, but as we
talk about criminal justicereform, we would be really
remiss to say, hey, here isanother example of how we are
continuing to keep black andbrown people oppressed within
this country.
Not only are wedisproportionately Sentencing

(38:11):
you to longer, longer time inprison for Crimes that don't
deserve 35 year sentences, etc.
But also when you come home,you're not really free because
we're going to impose these feesand fines repayment for an
unlimited and undescribed amountof time until it's paid back,

(38:34):
or 65 years or you know, likethese Really lengthy things.
It's hard for anybody to comeout on the other side of that,
like come up out of that, and sowhen we think about who lives
in poverty, who lives inhomelessness, who is continuous,
continuously restricted bythese collateral sanctions, we

(38:58):
have to make mention everysingle time that that is
disproportionately black andbrown bodies.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yeah, straight up now there is something that I
wanted to, kind of it justpopped into my mind and it
actually falls outside of thisarticle, kind of falls within
the subject, though, and that islike in the past ten years,

(39:26):
states just far and wide havebeen catching on and taking this
idea of pay to stay, whichstarts as soon as the county
jail and goes into Privateprisons.
Of course, the state doesn't dothat in their prisons, but
private prisons are notoriousfor it, and so, basically,

(39:49):
notoriously, in states likeCalifornia Ohio actually does
some of the county jails in Ohioactually do pay to stay now,
and so, basically, if you getmoney on your books, on your
account in the jail or in theprison, they will deduct monthly
, basically, rent.
You have to pay to stay inprison.

(40:11):
Even in, like some of countyjail in Ohio, when I was in
there, they like drasticallyreduced the quality of the meals
and implemented an outsidevendor to supply basically like
takeout food, so you could ordera burger and fries for $15 or

(40:36):
you could eat the slop that wascoming out.
That was, like you know, justhorrible and quality, and If you
got money put on your books,there was no option.
They were going to take theircut for your stay and they would
.
They would impose it in courtcosts and fines and all types of
stuff like it's.
It's ridiculous how like theylegitimately turn Criminal

(41:04):
justice and incarceration into amoney grab it is.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
It's a multi-million dollar corporation.
Basically, at the you know mind, it might as well make it like
a fortune 500 or, you know, likeit's just.
It's Atrocious how much thissystem Works to profit off of
individuals who don't have itright.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Like I mean it's modern-day slavery.
That's the other thing is, in astate like California, when you
think about all the gangviolence and stuff like that
they struggle with, if you havethe option of going to and this
is all about class and raceright, if you get incarcerated
and I can get incarcerated, andwe're of two different races and

(41:48):
classes and you can't go to,you can afford to go to a
pay-to-stay prison Much betterliving conditions, food and all
that stuff because you have themoney to pay for it.
Mm-hmm then you're going upthere to live.
You know, posh like MarthaStewart, and I'm getting fed to
the wolves because I came beforeto go.
So you know I mean it just tiesright on in, like with the

(42:11):
equity and Equality aspect.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Well, it just is similar to to bring it back to
criminal debt post incarceration, just to tie the two together.
I think the comment I wouldshare is we just continue to
make up rules without any kindof Codification and law about it

(42:36):
, right?
And so this pay-to-staycomponent of hey, you didn't ask
to be here, but we're gonnacharge you rent to be here
anyway, and when you come homewe're going to continue to
garnish your wages to make backthis money.
That doesn't really impact ourbudget or operating lines at all
.
We're just doing it because youknow, judge said so Continues

(42:58):
to highlight just how inhumaneour System is.
And so, until something iscodified in law regarding either
one and you know this is donein a much more, what am I trying
to say?
Like a copy-paste way?
What am I like templated?

Speaker 1 (43:21):
Just.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
Standardized way.
I was gonna get thereeventually.
I was like what are the?
What are the things that relateto this?
But Until something is likecreated where it's standard
across the bowl of the boardboard.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
It's late, it's my bedtime, then we're going to
continuously struggle with howwe reform the system.
So I think, do you have more totalk about?

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, just, this is actually a personal encounter, I
mean Whatever.
So I remember when I was in, Iwas locked up in the county jail
.
I was actually coming back tocoming back from prison to fight
a case and there was a guy inthere who did not want to go
home on house arrest.
They were telling them like oh,we're gonna let you out Because

(44:17):
the prison is overcrowded, sowe're just gonna put you on
house arrest.
And he was like no, I don'twant to.
And I didn't understand it atthe time and he ended up
explaining it to me later.
And it was because if they puthim on house arrest, they were
gonna make him pay for it.
And he was like I don't want to, I just do my time.
And we're like nah, and theykicked him on a prison and made

(44:40):
him pay for it.
And he was like I can't affordthat, you know, especially not
after I just lost my job since Icame to jail, like right, so I
don't know, it's just reallyunfair.
I Guess that is all wrap up.
I did have a couple ofhighlights, so this is also from

(45:04):
the Vera Institute article.
As compared to civil debts,criminal debts are subject to
longer enforcement periods in 68percent of our states and, as
the example that DJ gave, likein Virginia, it is 60 years for
you to pay back fines and fees.
What?

(45:25):
It's only 20 years for you topay back civil debt, and some of
them are even.
The difference is even biggerwhere it's like seven years for
civil judgments and you know,you know, 30, 40 years for
criminal.
So, um, that's pretty, it'spretty intense, man.
Um, what was the other one yousaid?

(45:45):
Um 34 of states outlined anunlimited period of enforcement
for fines and fees on debts.
Right which we counted the lines, and they were about 27 states
individually um, that sucks, man, that sucks, but, um, you know,
as usual, this is somethingthat we came about and we were

(46:08):
like man, people got to knowthis.
Like, the reason why we do thisis to Share with you guys in
society, because out in society,we are the people who have the
power, um, to Bring this tolight and make the change.
So I mean, I mean, how many ofyou guys are going to actually
pay attention to something likethis when you're going to the
voter booth when nobody knowsabout it?

Speaker 2 (46:31):
really, and I mean at the end of the day.
You know, we're talking aboutstatistics, we're talking about
state reform, we're talkingabout big system reform, but
this is impacting individuals.
These are individual people whoare having to make decisions
between Can I buy groceries formy family or should I pay my
Fines and fees from court from10, 15 years ago?

(46:52):
Because if I don't do eitherone, there's huge implications.
Like we talk about ethics andEthics classes and and that's
that's the ethical dilemma,right, is this paradox of what
am I going to do to survive thisweek?
Am I going to risk going backto prison and leaving my family,
or am I gonna Pay this fine andthen my family goes hungry?

(47:16):
Like those are real lifedecisions Individuals are having
to make because of how thesystem is set up right now.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
It's a it's a domino effect too.
I mean, because when you thinkabout the Barriers that we
mentioned in previous episodes,where it's like I come home from
prison and I'm trying to gethousing and I tell them I'm a
felon, what landlord is going tobe like?
Yeah, I'll give you a chance ifthey know that at one point
you're probably going to have tochoose between paying your rent

(47:43):
or paying the government.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Exactly right.
They're like no, I want to dealwith those problems, you know
and I mean I just can't imaginethe mental health struggle that
individuals have to then gothrough on a monthly basis to
figure out which bills are goingto pay.
We already know the mentalhealth cost of poverty.
When we combine that with themental health cost of collateral

(48:06):
sanctions and poverty levelincomes and ethical dilemmas of
family, like the exacerbationpeople have to feel on their
psyche is not talked about inthis article, but we have to
consider it because I'm sureit's astounding.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Yeah, and I, of course, am the one that's going
to petition you guys, because Iknow personally that you don't
have to look too far, no matterhow high you rise in society,
you don't have to look too farto to see somebody who is
struggling with their encounter.
You know, now or previously,with the criminal justice system

(48:47):
and so, even if it's like, oh,my nephew so-and-so, it just
can't seem to straighten up andget his life together, like you
don't know the burden he'sdealing with, trying to
straighten his life up and stillhaving to deal with the stuff
he did previously.
You know, right, it's not aclean slate.
They're starting with right.
So just you know, I'm alwayssaying it like, please have

(49:10):
mercy, be patient, you know.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
I think to wrap us up , if you don't have any other
comments, I'm cool with it Allright.
Uh, this is a concluding thoughtfrom Steven Laurie um, who is
an associate at the VeraInstitute of Justice on the
impact strategy team.
And uh, stephen writes Statesinterested in equity and justice
ought to revise their statutesof limitations for criminal

(49:34):
legal debt down to the goldstandard for consumer debt Three
years or at least equalize howdebts from criminal and civil
cases are treated, to ensurethat enforcement of these debts
is truly limited.
These reforms should alsoextinguish outstanding debt Once
the statute of limitations haveexpired.
For the millions of peopleburdened by LFO debt years and

(49:54):
even decades after the offense,this kind of relief is well past
due.
End quote.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
Yeah, so, um, thank you everybody for listening.
Um, this has been a veryInteresting, thought-provoking
article and I'm glad we got toshare with you guys.
I'm very glad to have the DJwith me.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
Yeah, she gotta go bad, though she gotta go bad.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
But I love having her with me and I know you guys
love having her too.
So no, no, it was fun.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
It's not a burden.
I don't want it to sound likethat.
I don't want it to sound likethat.
I just hear myself tripping onwords and I'm like, oh, it's
been up a long time.
That's right, we do it out oflove.
That's right.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
All right.
So thank you everybody fortuning in.
I'll see you next time, nextweek with mourn, and of course
we're kicking up something goodfor you.
So make sure you guys tune backin peace.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
The lockdown to legacy podcast is proud to be a
part of the bus sprout podcastcommunity network.
Lockdown to legacy is recordedat co-hatch in their lovely
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Thanks for your scholarship.
Audio engineering is done byour very own remy jones.
You can reach us with anyfeedback, questions, comments or
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(51:15):
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Thanks for listening.