April 12, 2024 • 29 mins
Have you ever found yourself unexpectedly captivated by a piece of history so profound, it resonates through time? That's exactly what happened to us aboard a double-decker bus, where the Eastern State Penitentiary's towering walls demanded our attention and inspired an episode that connects the past to our present lockdown experiences. We unravel the rich tales of the prison's origins and its once-cutting-edge design, including features like heated cells and 'eye of God' skylights. Discover the penitential intent behind its architecture and the stories that lie within, such as Al Capone's infamous luxury cell, showcasing the disparities in prisoner treatment.
As we wrap up, we not only reflect on the historical significance of such an architectural marvel, but also on the deeper connections forged during these unique times of confinement. Your stories and engagement breathe life into the Lockdown Legacy we're creating together. It's a profound shift in perspective, where our collective histories and personal journeys intertwine. So, join us for this weekly exploration where the walls speak, and we listen—building a legacy one episode at a time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to Lockdown to Legacy stories from the
inside out.
I'm your host, remy Jones.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I am co-host Debbie Jones.
We're a husband and wife teamhere to bring you the real life
stories, experiences andquestions around the American
criminal justice system.
We do advise discretion withthis podcast.
I think we should put that outthere first and foremost.
Yes, we are going to talk aboutexperiences that happen inside
the prison system, outside ofprison systems.
(00:46):
We will use language that mightbe offensive, but we intend to
keep it real.
And if that's not for you, wetotally understand, but please
do what's best for yourlistening ears.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh, we about to keep it real, son.
Our goal of this podcast is toshare the inside realities of
the American prison and criminaljustice system, from
pre-charges all the way topost-release, from the voices of
those who've experienced itfirsthand, including me.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
That's right, let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
What's up everybody, welcome back to another episode
of Lockdown to Legacy.
Of course I'm your host, remyJones, the hostess with the
mostess, just here to give youguys another interesting episode
, to give you guys a littleupdate, because you know that's
how I like to start off everyepisode.
I am in Philly right now,philadelphia, pa, so shout out
(01:53):
to any listeners.
We got there.
Dj, of course, doing her schoolthing, had a conference here
and I've been working so muchlately, man, I kind of just felt
like I should take a vacationand so I kind of tagged along,
man.
Man, philly is interesting.
(02:15):
It's real like deep, for real.
You know, I'm kind of intohistoric architecture.
So already on our second dayhere here, we did the big bus
tour.
You know, we're riding around adouble decker and we're looking
at all these buildings and, man, like it's, it's eye-opening
for real.
We did the same thing.
(02:35):
We went to chicago.
Um, it'll probably be a thingwe go and do everywhere we go,
but, uh, I mean so far, mean sofar, it's dope, man.
Um, that bus ride actuallyinfluenced me to change the
episode that I had already hadplanned for this week.
So, um, on that bus ride wecame across the Eastern state
(02:58):
penitentiary and, um, likeriding up to it.
I mean, we were coming to get,coming up on the cross street
and all of a sudden, there'sjust this huge wall.
I mean like it's a likecobblestone or you know some.
You see, on like a stone fronthouse, it was like a huge wall,
(03:18):
man, I'm talking about a hundredfeet high or more.
You couldn't see anything onthe other side of it, um,
nothing over the wall oranything.
There were no holes.
And that, right there, justinstantly got my attention.
And, um, the bus driver or, I'msorry, the, the tour guide on
the bus, um, started droppingall these jewels, man, and just
(03:40):
started dropping all thesefactoids about it.
And I was like I didn't eventell DJ, so she don't even know
about this.
Uh, little switch up that I didhere, uh, but in my mind I was
like, yo, I first off, I gottago see this, so I'm probably
going to go see that tomorrow.
And, um, I gotta like talkabout this, cause, you know,
(04:01):
just like we did in Belize, youknow, we went to the local
prison that they had there, um,and that case being the only
prison they had in the wholecountry.
But, um, you know, this one,here they actually do tours and
stuff.
So, uh, a little preemptive onthe episode, doing it before the
tour, you know, putting thecart before the horse.
But you know, hey, I gotta giveyou guys an episode.
(04:23):
So here it is the horse.
But you know, hey, I gotta giveyou guys an episode.
So here it is.
So in my uh little independentresearch that I've done um,
mainly um using wikipediaarticles, so I'll put those in
the show notes.
So I've discovered that, uh,this was once the most famous
(04:44):
and expensive prison in theworld.
Like man, we got so much damnhistory in the US here that is
not put into the history books,right?
It's located in a Fairmontsection of the city and, per our
tour guide on the bus, mr Penn,the founder of Pennsylvania,
(05:06):
was riding his horse up thisfair hill.
It was a pretty good-sized hilland he said, oh, what a fair
mount this is, and so theycalled it the Fair Mount section
of the city.
Now, if that's not in fact true, don't hold it against me.
That was the tour guide.
Sorry to throw her under thebus, but it is located in the
(05:36):
Fairmont section of the city andwas operational from 1829 to
1971.
Originally it had a differentname, though.
It was originally called theCherry Hill State Penitentiary,
though it was originally calledthe cherry hill state
penitentiary, and it was builton a 10 acre plot of farmland.
And they had this huge likecontest for it to be designed.
(05:57):
And, um, let me tell you, man,these people were shrewd man,
not necessarily in like you knowthe prison aspect of it, but
just like the balls of thesepeople to be offensive.
So, um, the guy that won thecontest his name was john
havelin and you know he was agerman, um, immigrant that had
(06:22):
settled here in the US, in thePennsylvania area and so the guy
wins the design, right, he winsthe contest.
So they for some reason choosethe second place you know the
runner up in the contest tooversee the building of the
prison.
(06:43):
Now, I don't know about y'all,I'm real competitive.
So for me to come in secondplace and y'all to choose me to
build somebody else's design, Iwould have been so offended, man
, I'd have been mad, I probablywould have sabotaged it.
I can't even lie, man.
That just seems like wow, whywould you do that?
(07:03):
That's a no-no.
But anyway, it was like wow,why would you do that?
That's a no-no.
But anyway it revolutionizedprisons for real At that point
in time.
He used a design that was reallyunheard of at that time and
they called it the hub-and-spokedesign, which really most
(07:25):
prisons use that design now, andthe benefit of that design is
that you could see further, youcould keep an eye in every
direction, so it was all aboutvisibility.
So in this case this prison hasseven corridors of cell blocks,
(07:49):
which you know in the joint wejust call them cell blocks, and
they were heated and they were.
They had skylights, there wasskylit quarters.
So, like when this prison cameout, that's probably why you
(08:13):
know it was the most famous andmost expensive, because when
this prison came out and wascompleted it influenced so many
other prisons, not just here inthe United States but around the
world.
You know, when it was completedit wasn't just the most
expensive prison but it wasactually the most expensive
public structure ever erected inthe United States at that point
and it ended up influencingover 300 prisons around the
world.
So I don't know if you guysremember our episode about
(08:34):
solitary confinement, but we hadmentioned in there that the
Quakers were some of thepioneers of solitary confinement
and the Quakers were also, uh,present here in the Pennsylvania
area.
So this prison actually took inthat solitary confinement
(08:54):
aspect and was one of the firstto actually revolutionize the
prison industry by includingsolitary confinement within the
design of it.
Um, including solitaryconfinement within the design of
it.
They tried to first kind oftest out the design on the Wall
Street I'm sorry, the WalnutStreet jail and they.
(09:15):
The whole concept of that jailwas actually that they
emphasized principles of reformrather than punishment,
criticized principles of reformrather than punishment.
And, believe it or not,solitary confinement back then
was considered a way to reformthe prisoner instead of
(09:35):
punishing them, which, as weknow now is not the case and it
does so much more harm than good.
So just a little recap theseparate system, aka solitary
confinement, was uh firstintroduced in the early 19th
century and the objective wasthat, um, the person in question
(09:59):
, or whatever, needed penance,you know, for their crimes or
for their evil thoughts orwhatever, and so that penance
was expressed through silentreflection, and so they will put
them into a cell or some typeof isolated, secure environment
with nothing but a Bible, andthat was for them to digest the
(10:28):
scripture, reflect upon it.
It had to be silent, it had tobe completely isolated, often
dim, often dank, moist Just allthe bad words you can think that
would come to mind and theywould be in there for weeks.
(10:49):
In modern solitary confinementin prison, inmates could be in
there for years.
Actually they no longer do thewhole Bible shtick but whatever.
But you know some of theconsequences of long-term
(11:10):
solitary confinement,unfortunately were it broke the
inmates down mentally.
You know it caused a lot ofmental health issues, including,
you know, schizophrenia,multiple personality disorders,
etc.
Multiple personality disorders,et cetera.
(11:32):
Um, and not to mention that,you know, once they came out of
solitary confinement they reallyhad withdrawn so much, you know
, not having had that peopleinteraction.
You know we are social beings,we're social creatures and we
need that interaction.
So when they got back out hereinto, you know, into a hostile
(11:53):
environment whether it was fromother inmates or from the staff
themselves they had a whole lotof trouble, you know,
reacclimating to that and so itreally caused problems.
Now I want to hold up for asecond and go back to the design
of this prison Because you knowthis Wikipedia article is like
(12:15):
stupid interesting.
You know, once again I told youthis place was like
revolutionary.
It like really kind oftrailblazed prison design for
its time kind of trailblazedprison design for its time, and
one of the interesting aspectsof it was that it was heated and
(12:37):
the sails had likeaccommodations that really
weren't widely used in any typeof building, let alone a prison.
So, um, the cell structureactually included a faucet with
running water and the runningwater was over the flushing
toilet.
So that was like I mean, it'sstill kind of used today.
(13:01):
It's kind of a water fountaindesign that's um and like fused
into the toilet.
It's really weird.
I don't know why they did that,but anyway, there was also
curved pipes on the walls wherethey ran hot water through it to
heat the sails in thewintertime.
But of all the features thatreally kind of blew my mind was
(13:26):
the fact that the toiletsflushed, and that in itself is
not a big deal really.
I mean, we can all imagine like, yeah, that's what toilets do,
but in this case the toiletswere flushed remotely, so the
inmates had no control over whenthe toilets flushed.
(13:46):
They were flushed only twiceper week by the prison guards.
So I mean, if you can imagine,you're in a cell and you have a
cellmate and you guys got to pee, you guys got to poop, whatever
, over a 14-day period.
(14:08):
I mean, who knows how manytimes you go in there and use
the bathroom, man, and in thesummer it gets kind of hot, gets
kind of.
You know it had to be somethick air man choke you to death
.
That, right there alone, is thepunishment, if you ask me.
But you know, for the time,like I said, man, I'm sure
(14:29):
people were kind of used to itand it was normal and hell, they
might've even been grateful forit.
So another interesting thingabout this design and this one
is really kind of mind blowingfor me is that originally the
inmates were housed in cellsthat could only be accessed by
(14:50):
entering through a smallexercise yard attached to the
back of the prison.
As far as the cell blocksthemselves, there was only like
a small box, kind of like whatyou see in the movies, where it
was a hole large enough to passmeals through the door.
It was a hole large enough topass meals through the door.
The design proved impractical Imean, of course, no-transcript
(15:38):
so it was actually like doubledoor.
That's crazy.
Um, the doors were super smalland so inmates had to really
like kind of um hunch over orduck down to get inside, and
kind of they were also narrow,and so one of the things that
they said might have been areason for this because it was
by design was so that inmateswould have a harder time getting
out and it would minimizeattacks on officers.
(16:00):
Some other people have theorized, though, that the small doors
forced the prisoners to bowwhile entering their cells,
which kind of tied in with thatwhole penance um ideology that
they had.
Um, it was also said that theskylight of each cell you know
(16:20):
the cell construction was umconcrete and it had a single
glass skylight in each cell, andit had a single glass skylight
in each cell, which theyactually termed the eye of God,
suggesting that the prisonerswere always being watched.
(16:41):
That is a little creepy to me.
Um okay, I just I really can'timagine being in a time like
this where you know everythingis religious and you know, it's
just like even doing time.
It's like you're being watchedby God and you got to pay
penance and all this other stuff.
You know, I understand thatthat's a part of a lot of
people's lives, the religion andeverything but like solitary
(17:07):
confinement with nothing but abible is extreme to me, man, I
really.
But this is the stuff I findinteresting.
Like I would really like tokind of like go and find more
information about how religiontied into punishment and
different time and differenteras.
(17:30):
Another interesting factoid isthat they actually started
filling up the prison before itwas finished, you know, before
the construction was finished.
So the original design wasactually, you know, like I said,
a seven spoke, you know, from acentral hub, um, and they were
(17:55):
supposed to be single story withtwo tiers on the cell blocks.
But while they were still doingthe construction, they ended up
enlisting the services ofinmates to finish the last two
cell blocks, you know, cellblocks 14 and 15.
And they said they were prettyhastily built.
(18:17):
You know they were reallytrying to push that timeline to
get it done.
I'm pretty sure we all knowwhat that's like.
Being at this housing market iswhat it is right now and
they're just throwing stuff up.
But basically, um, cell block15 was like so hastily built and
really like, from the verybeginning the conditions were
(18:39):
kind of bad and so that's wherethey put the worst um inmates of
all and they were likecompletely gated off from even
the the guards, so that I meanthat right, there is kind of
nuts, but it's hard to imaginethat you can build a prison of
(18:59):
this size and it's mind-blowing,it's complex, it's everything,
it's inspiring and have itcompletely filled and
overcrowded before the structureis even complete.
And I don't know if I told youguys already, but it was
designed to house 250 inmates.
(19:22):
Time of the prison theyactually had over 85,000 people
go through his stores and, um,you know, like I mentioned
earlier, some of them were evenfamous people.
So we had a Scarface Al Capone.
He was probably their mostnotorious um inmate and
according to our bus guide onceagain, and according to our bus
(19:46):
guide once again, he had suchgreat amenities Like his sale
was nothing like everyone else'ssale and that was due to the
fact that he was actuallyfriends with the warden.
(20:06):
So I mean, when you talk abouta guy who was, you know, mr,
untouchable and ended up goingto prison like if he had to do
prison time, it better had been,you know, as comfortable as
possible, which I find it reallyhard to imagine prison as
(20:29):
comfortable, let alone in, youknow, the 1800s and 1900s.
But hey man, that's just me.
I lived a pampered life, Iguess, on the inside.
Also, according toeasternstateorg, which is the
Eastern State Penitentiarywebsite, alphonse Capone aka was
(20:56):
uh.
He spent eight months in thatprison and he was arrested for
carrying a deadly concealedweapon.
Of course, that was his firstprison sentence.
I'm not really sure if he hadothers, but all I know is that
those eight months in theeastern state were relatively
luxurious.
His cell was on the Park Avenueblock and he had, according to
(21:21):
them, fine furniture, orientalrugs and a cabinet radio, which
I'm pretty sure did not make theother inmates happy, but I'm
sure he was a sharing type, atleast for the music.
Um, also, you know, there'salways a contraband to be smoked
(21:42):
in, as far as you know, um,liquor beer, whatever, and
during this time, um, liquorbeer, whatever, and during this
time, um, we're talking aboutprohibition and everything.
So who knows what type of goodold time they were having in
there.
Um, some other notable uh namesfrom that area that were housed
in eastern state is victor babeandrioli.
(22:06):
Um, he was convicted forkilling a pennsylvania state
trooper in 1937 and served alife sentence for first degree
murder.
But you know, you know how itis right, young hard-headed, I
mean, guys ain't going downwithout a fight.
So he ended up escaping in 1943by hiding in the delivery truck
(22:31):
that was leaving the prison.
Um, they actually caught up tohim at a diner and, you know,
they ended up having a shootoutand he died.
So, you know, sad but didn'tserve a life sentence.
Uh, another figure was MorrisBulber, also known as the rabbi.
(22:52):
Um, he was sentenced in 1942and was serving a life sentence
as a member of an arsenicmurdering ring located in Philly
.
Um, he was called a veteranwitch doctor and compounder of
charms.
Okay, bulber was one of theleaders of the group and they
(23:16):
appealed to women who werewilling to murder their husbands
.
Arsenic wasn't the only methodused, but in order to collect
their husbands' insurancepolicies, you know, and of
course give them a cut.
They were willing to organizeit all as long as the women were
willing to be a part of it.
So between 1932 and 1937, thegroup was responsible for the
(23:42):
deaths of at least 30 peopleleast 30 people.
16 people were convicted forparticipating in the syndicate,
including Bulbert and HoracePerlman, who also served time at
Eastern State for the murders.
Let's see One of the ladies.
(24:03):
So this was not a separateprison for genders, but one of
the ladies that were held herewas Frida Frost.
The female prisoners were partof the landscape crew for the
prison for almost 100 years andFrida was one of the last of
(24:28):
them.
She was transferred to theMuncie Industrial Home for Women
in 1923, but she got famousjust for being the last.
I wouldn't say just for beingthe last, but that was one of
the big things.
She was there serving a 20-yearsentence for murder and guess
what she did?
(24:48):
Poisoned her husband man.
This was not a good era forhusbands, by the way.
I just want to say that manLooks like if you had any value.
You were on the radar and thescope.
So the last famous inmate that Iwant to highlight here is
(25:08):
William Francis Sutton.
He was also known as SlickWillie, which I believe I've
heard that name in pop culturebefore.
He was one of the most famousbank robbers in American history
.
He spent 11 years at EasternState Penitentiary Tentry.
(25:32):
In 1945, him, along with 11other prisoners, escaped from
Eastern State in a prisoner-dugtunnel that went almost 100 feet
underground.
Sutton was recaptured justminutes later.
Over the course of his criminalcareer, though, sutton is
credited with over 50 bankrobberies, three successful
escapes from prison and over 30years served behind bars.
He died in 1980.
I just got to say to get awaywith over 50 bank robberies like
(25:59):
this dude.
I mean, of course we're talkingabout the age where technology
isn't what it is now.
There were no surveillancecameras and instant surveillance
cameras and you know instanttransmissions of, you know cell
phones and pictures and all thisother stuff.
But I mean still like this dudehad stones man, um, slick
(26:22):
Willie man, that's somethingelse.
So today, uh, eastern statepenitentiary is open to the
public.
Uh, it operates as a museum, ahistoric site, and is open
year-round.
They give out guided tours aswell as self-guided audio tours,
and, um, the interesting thingabout the audio tours are
(26:48):
they're mainly narrated by thisone person, steve I can't
remember my pronounce his lastname, I think it's uh, bushimi
um but it also includes audiofrom former guards, wardens and
even prisoners, which I thinkthat is awesome.
I can't wait to go and see thisstuff myself.
(27:09):
There's a scavenger hunt thatthey do for children, and I mean
talk about wanting to work in aprison.
Man, this is probably one ofthose prisons that you can work
at and actually have a good time.
They are hiring right now it'sfor um, grounds maintenance
(27:29):
technicians and stuff like that.
Um, they've done a lot ofrestoration and preservation of
this prison and I mean, dude,I've seen some of the costs of
it.
It's insane.
It's mostly funded through, uh,fundraisers and public works
contributions stuff, stuff likethat.
But I suggest you guys, man, ifyou ever go to Philly, man,
(27:56):
like, hit it up, like this isthe type of stuff that blows my
mind and I love being a part of.
So, with that folks, I'm goingto go ahead and wrap this
episode up.
I want to thank you all forbeing part of this whole journey
with me.
You know this whole lockdownlegacy podcast is.
It means a lot to me and itmeans a lot All of my dedicated
(28:17):
listeners.
So for now, I'm going to goahead and sign off and I'll see
you guys next week.
Peace.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Peace.
Remy Jones.
You can reach us with anyfeedback, questions, comments or
share the love by emailingstories at lockdown2legacycom.
You can reach out there too fora free sticker, and you can
find us on Instagram and Twitterwith the handle at
lockdown2legacy, and on Facebookat the Lockdown to Legacy
podcast.
Thanks for listening, thank you.
Welcome to Lockdown to Legacy stories from the
inside out.
I'm your host, remy Jones.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I am co-host Debbie Jones.
We're a husband and wife teamhere to bring you the real life
stories, experiences andquestions around the American
criminal justice system.
We do advise discretion withthis podcast.
I think we should put that outthere first and foremost.
Yes, we are going to talk aboutexperiences that happen inside
the prison system, outside ofprison systems.
(00:46):
We will use language that mightbe offensive, but we intend to
keep it real.
And if that's not for you, wetotally understand, but please
do what's best for yourlistening ears.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh, we about to keep it real, son.
Our goal of this podcast is toshare the inside realities of
the American prison and criminaljustice system, from
pre-charges all the way topost-release, from the voices of
those who've experienced itfirsthand, including me.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
That's right, let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
What's up everybody, welcome back to another episode
of Lockdown to Legacy.
Of course I'm your host, remyJones, the hostess with the
mostess, just here to give youguys another interesting episode
, to give you guys a littleupdate, because you know that's
how I like to start off everyepisode.
I am in Philly right now,philadelphia, pa, so shout out
(01:53):
to any listeners.
We got there.
Dj, of course, doing her schoolthing, had a conference here
and I've been working so muchlately, man, I kind of just felt
like I should take a vacationand so I kind of tagged along,
man.
Man, philly is interesting.
(02:15):
It's real like deep, for real.
You know, I'm kind of intohistoric architecture.
So already on our second dayhere here, we did the big bus
tour.
You know, we're riding around adouble decker and we're looking
at all these buildings and, man, like it's, it's eye-opening
for real.
We did the same thing.
(02:35):
We went to chicago.
Um, it'll probably be a thingwe go and do everywhere we go,
but, uh, I mean so far, mean sofar, it's dope, man.
Um, that bus ride actuallyinfluenced me to change the
episode that I had already hadplanned for this week.
So, um, on that bus ride wecame across the Eastern state
(02:58):
penitentiary and, um, likeriding up to it.
I mean, we were coming to get,coming up on the cross street
and all of a sudden, there'sjust this huge wall.
I mean like it's a likecobblestone or you know some.
You see, on like a stone fronthouse, it was like a huge wall,
(03:18):
man, I'm talking about a hundredfeet high or more.
You couldn't see anything onthe other side of it, um,
nothing over the wall oranything.
There were no holes.
And that, right there, justinstantly got my attention.
And, um, the bus driver or, I'msorry, the, the tour guide on
the bus, um, started droppingall these jewels, man, and just
(03:40):
started dropping all thesefactoids about it.
And I was like I didn't eventell DJ, so she don't even know
about this.
Uh, little switch up that I didhere, uh, but in my mind I was
like, yo, I first off, I gottago see this, so I'm probably
going to go see that tomorrow.
And, um, I gotta like talkabout this, cause, you know,
(04:01):
just like we did in Belize, youknow, we went to the local
prison that they had there, um,and that case being the only
prison they had in the wholecountry.
But, um, you know, this one,here they actually do tours and
stuff.
So, uh, a little preemptive onthe episode, doing it before the
tour, you know, putting thecart before the horse.
But you know, hey, I gotta giveyou guys an episode.
(04:23):
So here it is the horse.
But you know, hey, I gotta giveyou guys an episode.
So here it is.
So in my uh little independentresearch that I've done um,
mainly um using wikipediaarticles, so I'll put those in
the show notes.
So I've discovered that, uh,this was once the most famous
(04:44):
and expensive prison in theworld.
Like man, we got so much damnhistory in the US here that is
not put into the history books,right?
It's located in a Fairmontsection of the city and, per our
tour guide on the bus, mr Penn,the founder of Pennsylvania,
(05:06):
was riding his horse up thisfair hill.
It was a pretty good-sized hilland he said, oh, what a fair
mount this is, and so theycalled it the Fair Mount section
of the city.
Now, if that's not in fact true, don't hold it against me.
That was the tour guide.
Sorry to throw her under thebus, but it is located in the
(05:36):
Fairmont section of the city andwas operational from 1829 to
1971.
Originally it had a differentname, though.
It was originally called theCherry Hill State Penitentiary,
though it was originally calledthe cherry hill state
penitentiary, and it was builton a 10 acre plot of farmland.
And they had this huge likecontest for it to be designed.
(05:57):
And, um, let me tell you, man,these people were shrewd man,
not necessarily in like you knowthe prison aspect of it, but
just like the balls of thesepeople to be offensive.
So, um, the guy that won thecontest his name was john
havelin and you know he was agerman, um, immigrant that had
(06:22):
settled here in the US, in thePennsylvania area and so the guy
wins the design, right, he winsthe contest.
So they for some reason choosethe second place you know the
runner up in the contest tooversee the building of the
prison.
(06:43):
Now, I don't know about y'all,I'm real competitive.
So for me to come in secondplace and y'all to choose me to
build somebody else's design, Iwould have been so offended, man
, I'd have been mad, I probablywould have sabotaged it.
I can't even lie, man.
That just seems like wow, whywould you do that?
(07:03):
That's a no-no.
But anyway, it was like wow,why would you do that?
That's a no-no.
But anyway it revolutionizedprisons for real At that point
in time.
He used a design that was reallyunheard of at that time and
they called it the hub-and-spokedesign, which really most
(07:25):
prisons use that design now, andthe benefit of that design is
that you could see further, youcould keep an eye in every
direction, so it was all aboutvisibility.
So in this case this prison hasseven corridors of cell blocks,
(07:49):
which you know in the joint wejust call them cell blocks, and
they were heated and they were.
They had skylights, there wasskylit quarters.
So, like when this prison cameout, that's probably why you
(08:13):
know it was the most famous andmost expensive, because when
this prison came out and wascompleted it influenced so many
other prisons, not just here inthe United States but around the
world.
You know, when it was completedit wasn't just the most
expensive prison but it wasactually the most expensive
public structure ever erected inthe United States at that point
and it ended up influencingover 300 prisons around the
world.
So I don't know if you guysremember our episode about
(08:34):
solitary confinement, but we hadmentioned in there that the
Quakers were some of thepioneers of solitary confinement
and the Quakers were also, uh,present here in the Pennsylvania
area.
So this prison actually took inthat solitary confinement
(08:54):
aspect and was one of the firstto actually revolutionize the
prison industry by includingsolitary confinement within the
design of it.
Um, including solitaryconfinement within the design of
it.
They tried to first kind oftest out the design on the Wall
Street I'm sorry, the WalnutStreet jail and they.
(09:15):
The whole concept of that jailwas actually that they
emphasized principles of reformrather than punishment,
criticized principles of reformrather than punishment.
And, believe it or not,solitary confinement back then
was considered a way to reformthe prisoner instead of
(09:35):
punishing them, which, as weknow now is not the case and it
does so much more harm than good.
So just a little recap theseparate system, aka solitary
confinement, was uh firstintroduced in the early 19th
century and the objective wasthat, um, the person in question
(09:59):
, or whatever, needed penance,you know, for their crimes or
for their evil thoughts orwhatever, and so that penance
was expressed through silentreflection, and so they will put
them into a cell or some typeof isolated, secure environment
with nothing but a Bible, andthat was for them to digest the
(10:28):
scripture, reflect upon it.
It had to be silent, it had tobe completely isolated, often
dim, often dank, moist Just allthe bad words you can think that
would come to mind and theywould be in there for weeks.
(10:49):
In modern solitary confinementin prison, inmates could be in
there for years.
Actually they no longer do thewhole Bible shtick but whatever.
But you know some of theconsequences of long-term
(11:10):
solitary confinement,unfortunately were it broke the
inmates down mentally.
You know it caused a lot ofmental health issues, including,
you know, schizophrenia,multiple personality disorders,
etc.
Multiple personality disorders,et cetera.
(11:32):
Um, and not to mention that,you know, once they came out of
solitary confinement they reallyhad withdrawn so much, you know
, not having had that peopleinteraction.
You know we are social beings,we're social creatures and we
need that interaction.
So when they got back out hereinto, you know, into a hostile
(11:53):
environment whether it was fromother inmates or from the staff
themselves they had a whole lotof trouble, you know,
reacclimating to that and so itreally caused problems.
Now I want to hold up for asecond and go back to the design
of this prison Because you knowthis Wikipedia article is like
(12:15):
stupid interesting.
You know, once again I told youthis place was like
revolutionary.
It like really kind oftrailblazed prison design for
its time kind of trailblazedprison design for its time, and
one of the interesting aspectsof it was that it was heated and
(12:37):
the sails had likeaccommodations that really
weren't widely used in any typeof building, let alone a prison.
So, um, the cell structureactually included a faucet with
running water and the runningwater was over the flushing
toilet.
So that was like I mean, it'sstill kind of used today.
(13:01):
It's kind of a water fountaindesign that's um and like fused
into the toilet.
It's really weird.
I don't know why they did that,but anyway, there was also
curved pipes on the walls wherethey ran hot water through it to
heat the sails in thewintertime.
But of all the features thatreally kind of blew my mind was
(13:26):
the fact that the toiletsflushed, and that in itself is
not a big deal really.
I mean, we can all imagine like, yeah, that's what toilets do,
but in this case the toiletswere flushed remotely, so the
inmates had no control over whenthe toilets flushed.
(13:46):
They were flushed only twiceper week by the prison guards.
So I mean, if you can imagine,you're in a cell and you have a
cellmate and you guys got to pee, you guys got to poop, whatever
, over a 14-day period.
(14:08):
I mean, who knows how manytimes you go in there and use
the bathroom, man, and in thesummer it gets kind of hot, gets
kind of.
You know it had to be somethick air man choke you to death
.
That, right there alone, is thepunishment, if you ask me.
But you know, for the time,like I said, man, I'm sure
(14:29):
people were kind of used to itand it was normal and hell, they
might've even been grateful forit.
So another interesting thingabout this design and this one
is really kind of mind blowingfor me is that originally the
inmates were housed in cellsthat could only be accessed by
(14:50):
entering through a smallexercise yard attached to the
back of the prison.
As far as the cell blocksthemselves, there was only like
a small box, kind of like whatyou see in the movies, where it
was a hole large enough to passmeals through the door.
It was a hole large enough topass meals through the door.
The design proved impractical Imean, of course, no-transcript
(15:38):
so it was actually like doubledoor.
That's crazy.
Um, the doors were super smalland so inmates had to really
like kind of um hunch over orduck down to get inside, and
kind of they were also narrow,and so one of the things that
they said might have been areason for this because it was
by design was so that inmateswould have a harder time getting
out and it would minimizeattacks on officers.
(16:00):
Some other people have theorized, though, that the small doors
forced the prisoners to bowwhile entering their cells,
which kind of tied in with thatwhole penance um ideology that
they had.
Um, it was also said that theskylight of each cell you know
(16:20):
the cell construction was umconcrete and it had a single
glass skylight in each cell, andit had a single glass skylight
in each cell, which theyactually termed the eye of God,
suggesting that the prisonerswere always being watched.
(16:41):
That is a little creepy to me.
Um okay, I just I really can'timagine being in a time like
this where you know everythingis religious and you know, it's
just like even doing time.
It's like you're being watchedby God and you got to pay
penance and all this other stuff.
You know, I understand thatthat's a part of a lot of
people's lives, the religion andeverything but like solitary
(17:07):
confinement with nothing but abible is extreme to me, man, I
really.
But this is the stuff I findinteresting.
Like I would really like tokind of like go and find more
information about how religiontied into punishment and
different time and differenteras.
(17:30):
Another interesting factoid isthat they actually started
filling up the prison before itwas finished, you know, before
the construction was finished.
So the original design wasactually, you know, like I said,
a seven spoke, you know, from acentral hub, um, and they were
(17:55):
supposed to be single story withtwo tiers on the cell blocks.
But while they were still doingthe construction, they ended up
enlisting the services ofinmates to finish the last two
cell blocks, you know, cellblocks 14 and 15.
And they said they were prettyhastily built.
(18:17):
You know they were reallytrying to push that timeline to
get it done.
I'm pretty sure we all knowwhat that's like.
Being at this housing market iswhat it is right now and
they're just throwing stuff up.
But basically, um, cell block15 was like so hastily built and
really like, from the verybeginning the conditions were
(18:39):
kind of bad and so that's wherethey put the worst um inmates of
all and they were likecompletely gated off from even
the the guards, so that I meanthat right, there is kind of
nuts, but it's hard to imaginethat you can build a prison of
(18:59):
this size and it's mind-blowing,it's complex, it's everything,
it's inspiring and have itcompletely filled and
overcrowded before the structureis even complete.
And I don't know if I told youguys already, but it was
designed to house 250 inmates.
(19:22):
Time of the prison theyactually had over 85,000 people
go through his stores and, um,you know, like I mentioned
earlier, some of them were evenfamous people.
So we had a Scarface Al Capone.
He was probably their mostnotorious um inmate and
according to our bus guide onceagain, and according to our bus
(19:46):
guide once again, he had suchgreat amenities Like his sale
was nothing like everyone else'ssale and that was due to the
fact that he was actuallyfriends with the warden.
(20:06):
So I mean, when you talk abouta guy who was, you know, mr,
untouchable and ended up goingto prison like if he had to do
prison time, it better had been,you know, as comfortable as
possible, which I find it reallyhard to imagine prison as
(20:29):
comfortable, let alone in, youknow, the 1800s and 1900s.
But hey man, that's just me.
I lived a pampered life, Iguess, on the inside.
Also, according toeasternstateorg, which is the
Eastern State Penitentiarywebsite, alphonse Capone aka was
(20:56):
uh.
He spent eight months in thatprison and he was arrested for
carrying a deadly concealedweapon.
Of course, that was his firstprison sentence.
I'm not really sure if he hadothers, but all I know is that
those eight months in theeastern state were relatively
luxurious.
His cell was on the Park Avenueblock and he had, according to
(21:21):
them, fine furniture, orientalrugs and a cabinet radio, which
I'm pretty sure did not make theother inmates happy, but I'm
sure he was a sharing type, atleast for the music.
Um, also, you know, there'salways a contraband to be smoked
(21:42):
in, as far as you know, um,liquor beer, whatever, and
during this time, um, liquorbeer, whatever, and during this
time, um, we're talking aboutprohibition and everything.
So who knows what type of goodold time they were having in
there.
Um, some other notable uh namesfrom that area that were housed
in eastern state is victor babeandrioli.
(22:06):
Um, he was convicted forkilling a pennsylvania state
trooper in 1937 and served alife sentence for first degree
murder.
But you know, you know how itis right, young hard-headed, I
mean, guys ain't going downwithout a fight.
So he ended up escaping in 1943by hiding in the delivery truck
(22:31):
that was leaving the prison.
Um, they actually caught up tohim at a diner and, you know,
they ended up having a shootoutand he died.
So, you know, sad but didn'tserve a life sentence.
Uh, another figure was MorrisBulber, also known as the rabbi.
(22:52):
Um, he was sentenced in 1942and was serving a life sentence
as a member of an arsenicmurdering ring located in Philly
.
Um, he was called a veteranwitch doctor and compounder of
charms.
Okay, bulber was one of theleaders of the group and they
(23:16):
appealed to women who werewilling to murder their husbands
.
Arsenic wasn't the only methodused, but in order to collect
their husbands' insurancepolicies, you know, and of
course give them a cut.
They were willing to organizeit all as long as the women were
willing to be a part of it.
So between 1932 and 1937, thegroup was responsible for the
(23:42):
deaths of at least 30 peopleleast 30 people.
16 people were convicted forparticipating in the syndicate,
including Bulbert and HoracePerlman, who also served time at
Eastern State for the murders.
Let's see One of the ladies.
(24:03):
So this was not a separateprison for genders, but one of
the ladies that were held herewas Frida Frost.
The female prisoners were partof the landscape crew for the
prison for almost 100 years andFrida was one of the last of
(24:28):
them.
She was transferred to theMuncie Industrial Home for Women
in 1923, but she got famousjust for being the last.
I wouldn't say just for beingthe last, but that was one of
the big things.
She was there serving a 20-yearsentence for murder and guess
what she did?
(24:48):
Poisoned her husband man.
This was not a good era forhusbands, by the way.
I just want to say that manLooks like if you had any value.
You were on the radar and thescope.
So the last famous inmate that Iwant to highlight here is
(25:08):
William Francis Sutton.
He was also known as SlickWillie, which I believe I've
heard that name in pop culturebefore.
He was one of the most famousbank robbers in American history
.
He spent 11 years at EasternState Penitentiary Tentry.
(25:32):
In 1945, him, along with 11other prisoners, escaped from
Eastern State in a prisoner-dugtunnel that went almost 100 feet
underground.
Sutton was recaptured justminutes later.
Over the course of his criminalcareer, though, sutton is
credited with over 50 bankrobberies, three successful
escapes from prison and over 30years served behind bars.
He died in 1980.
I just got to say to get awaywith over 50 bank robberies like
(25:59):
this dude.
I mean, of course we're talkingabout the age where technology
isn't what it is now.
There were no surveillancecameras and instant surveillance
cameras and you know instanttransmissions of, you know cell
phones and pictures and all thisother stuff.
But I mean still like this dudehad stones man, um, slick
(26:22):
Willie man, that's somethingelse.
So today, uh, eastern statepenitentiary is open to the
public.
Uh, it operates as a museum, ahistoric site, and is open
year-round.
They give out guided tours aswell as self-guided audio tours,
and, um, the interesting thingabout the audio tours are
(26:48):
they're mainly narrated by thisone person, steve I can't
remember my pronounce his lastname, I think it's uh, bushimi
um but it also includes audiofrom former guards, wardens and
even prisoners, which I thinkthat is awesome.
I can't wait to go and see thisstuff myself.
(27:09):
There's a scavenger hunt thatthey do for children, and I mean
talk about wanting to work in aprison.
Man, this is probably one ofthose prisons that you can work
at and actually have a good time.
They are hiring right now it'sfor um, grounds maintenance
(27:29):
technicians and stuff like that.
Um, they've done a lot ofrestoration and preservation of
this prison and I mean, dude,I've seen some of the costs of
it.
It's insane.
It's mostly funded through, uh,fundraisers and public works
contributions stuff, stuff likethat.
But I suggest you guys, man, ifyou ever go to Philly, man,
(27:56):
like, hit it up, like this isthe type of stuff that blows my
mind and I love being a part of.
So, with that folks, I'm goingto go ahead and wrap this
episode up.
I want to thank you all forbeing part of this whole journey
with me.
You know this whole lockdownlegacy podcast is.
It means a lot to me and itmeans a lot All of my dedicated
(28:17):
listeners.
So for now, I'm going to goahead and sign off and I'll see
you guys next week.
Peace.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Peace.
Remy Jones.
You can reach us with anyfeedback, questions, comments or
share the love by emailingstories at lockdown2legacycom.
You can reach out there too fora free sticker, and you can
find us on Instagram and Twitterwith the handle at
lockdown2legacy, and on Facebookat the Lockdown to Legacy
podcast.
Thanks for listening, thank you.
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