February 14, 2025 • 45 mins
What if the bonds you formed during your darkest times became the pillars of your redemption? That's exactly what happened when Kel, my dear friend, and I first connected back in county jail, supported by the spiritual strength of our mothers. Now, as Kel stands on the cusp of freedom, we reflect on the profound lessons learned through his journey of incarceration and the resilience needed to transform those lessons into a legacy of hope and change. Our conversation is a heartfelt exploration of trust, growth, and the vital role family and community support play in overcoming the challenges of the criminal justice system.
As we discuss the unique struggles and opportunities faced by those in prison, we confront the mental health stigma that often silences and isolates men behind bars. Kel and I share personal experiences of breaking down barriers of pride and ego, emphasizing the importance of seeking mental health support during incarceration and after release. We offer insights into building financial stability and credit as cornerstones for success post-incarceration, underscoring the importance of using time wisely for self-improvement and planning for a future filled with hope and possibility.
Every journey of transformation requires a roadmap and trusted companions, and we aim to provide both in our discussion. By sharing practical advice and our own stories of growth, we encourage listeners to embrace their individuality and use their circumstances as a springboard for change. The power of family support and the impact of evolving roles within loved ones are key themes, as Kel prepares to reintegrate and continue his journey beyond the prison walls. Join us in celebrating the achievements and personal growth that define this new beginning.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Remie (00:10):
Hey everybody, welcome back to season two of Lockdown
to Legacy.
I'm your host, Remy Jones, andfrom time to time I will be
joined by my co-host, dj, whojust so happens to also be my
awesome sauce wife.
I also have a couple of closefriends that are still
incarcerated who will be regularcontributors and together we
(00:33):
will bring you the real ondealing with the criminal
justice system from multipleangles.
A lot of what we share will bereal experiences from both
currently and formerlyincarcerated people like myself,
along with current events thataffect those impacted by the
legal system.
So thank you for tapping in,thank you for sticking with us
from season one.
Now let's get to it.
(00:53):
Hey, lockdown and Legacy fans,I want to thank you guys for
sticking with us during ourhiatus and I want to welcome you
guys back to Season 2.
(01:14):
This is our Episode 2.
And we got a guest.
This is one of my good friends.
You know most of these guys aremy friends from the inside, but
this guy actually knew somewhatbefore I went to prison, but
we'll get into that later in theepisode.
So he decided he wanted to doan interview.
(01:36):
He is approaching release.
He had previously served, Ithink, 11 years and then got out
for a few years and,unfortunately, was one of those
recidivism statistics, and sothis time, having learned a
(01:56):
lesson and experienced somegrowth in there, he decided that
he wanted to share his story.
So I'm much appreciative of him, and I hope you guys are too,
and I hope you guys learnsomething or gain some insight
from not only the successstories that we share, but also
some of the ones who you knowhave a harder time or take a
(02:17):
little longer to learn thoselessons.
Nonetheless, though, it's notabout how long it takes us to
get there.
It's about the fact that wemade it so without further ado.
Here's my man, cal this call isfrom a drc correctional facility
(02:38):
and is subject to monitoringand recording.
Utilization of an unapprovedapplication and three-way calls
to communicate are strictlyprohibited and a violation of
DRC policy.
Thank you for using GTL.
Thank you for using GTL.
What's up, bro?
How are you man?
What's up with my bro?
Ain't that much man, Ain't thatmuch at all, Just, you know,
(03:01):
trying to weather the cold.
Kel (03:05):
Man, listen, I just got up, maybe not too long ago.
What woke me up was everybody,man, it's cold, it's cold, it's
cold outside, it must be coldoutside, but how you been, I'm
hanging, I'm hanging, so, buthow you?
Remie (03:27):
been, though I'm hanging.
I'm hanging, so first off, youknow I like to have people
introduce themselves.
I'll let everybody know.
This is my good friend Kale.
How long have we known eachother, kale 16?
.
Kel (03:42):
Man, we met in 2008, 2008, 2008, yep, so you know, uh, it
was unfortunate situation, butat the same time, you know,
sometimes an unfortunatesituation, when utilized
(04:02):
properly, can turn into a goodthing.
But, yeah, 2008, man.
Remie (04:06):
Yeah, so 2008,.
You know, we were actually inthe county jail, both fighting
for our lives against thissystem that I ain't going to use
no adjectives to describe.
But yeah, we was in there andthey're going through it, man.
Yeah, we was in there andthey're going through it, man.
And we was in the same blockand really didn't cross paths
(04:29):
until we went on visit and ourmothers actually linked up as
support, spiritual support, andso you know, of course, how moms
do.
Oh, I met a lady, her son, inthere.
You need to go talk to him.
Y'all need to lean on eachother and stay strong.
I'm like, yeah, don't worryabout that in here.
(04:50):
But you know, we did end upcrossing paths and I mean it was
cool.
It was cool.
We did kind of look out for eachother in there.
I was new to the prison, youknow.
So once I realized again I'mabout to go down, you know it
was kind of like a big brothersituation, you know, gave me
(05:10):
some advice and stuff, let meknow what I was about to be, you
know what to expect, and Iappreciated that.
And then, you know, we, weexchanged information and we
both start you know our separatepaths um, to doing time, and
once again it was like, yeah, weexchanged information, a letter
(05:30):
or two might have been written,but it was mainly our mothers
that kind of kept it going.
And then I mean, I went to what?
Toledo?
And you, um, I don't know whereyou went first.
Kel (05:45):
I went.
After I left the county, I wentto Lorain and then from Lorain
I went to Lake Erie and thenfrom Lake Erie I went to Grafton
Right.
But what I wanted to say, as Iwas listening to you when we met
in the county right, this is atrue story.
Anybody that knows me for realknows that I'm a real private
(06:05):
county.
Right, this is a true story.
Anybody that knows me for realknows that I'm a real private
person, right.
So when you said the wholething about I became like a big
brother and everything Inormally don't do that right,
like when you're in the countyand you see somebody else, at
that point it's every man forthemselves.
Facts, facts.
Remie (06:25):
Facts, because you ain't trying to have nobody's problems
become yours, and I think Italked about it in another
episode.
Like prison, snitches is real.
There's dudes in there that'lllisten to all your stories.
Get close and go talk to theirlawyer like all right.
Yeah, I got the scoop.
Kel (06:40):
Yeah, get me.
Yeah, get me out of here.
I got some information for you,but I don't know what it was
about you.
I think it was.
I think we played a game ofchess and as we were playing a
game of chess, I was listeningto you and one of the things
that I picked up about you wasthat, alright, the young man got
(07:02):
a good head on his shoulders.
So as long as I know thatyou're young man, got a good
head on his shoulders, so aslong as I know that you're
somebody that has a good head onyour shoulders, I'll talk to
you.
And in the process of listeningto you, I'm like, all right.
And then that's what opened upthe door for us to even start
talking in the first place,because if he was one of them
other ones, I'd have just keptit moving.
Remie (07:23):
Yeah, we call them crash dummies for anybody who don't
know.
County jail full of crashdummies.
Dudes that I mean.
To be honest, it's just soboring in there.
And then you're dealing withthis loss of freedom so you're
angry.
I literally know dudes thatwould go get in a fight because
they was bored.
They would go steal somebody'sstuff brazenly, broad daylight
(07:45):
no sneaking about it justbecause they want somebody to
come find them, or they, youknow, flood these toilets.
Try to flush their whole blanketdown their toilet so the COs
would come in there with theriot gear, like it's.
You definitely got to becareful who you hit your cart to
in the county man or in prisonin general, because it's easy to
(08:06):
let somebody in and it's hardto get somebody out.
Kel (08:10):
That's the fact.
Once they're in your business,oh my God, they feel like
they're entitled to you, to yourpresence, your energy, and at
some point it's actually betterto just not know anybody.
Just keep to yourself, that'sthe best way.
Yeah, but the other part, whenhe was talking about our moms
listen, true story I wasspeaking with my mom the other
(08:33):
day and she was asking aboutyour mom, and I just go to show
like our moms have been like atrue catalyst between us,
because I just kept thinking,think about it.
I'm like if our moms didn'tkeep in contact, I don't know if
we would have kept in contact,because once you went your
direction and I went mydirection, our communication
(08:56):
stopped.
But we were always in contactwith our, with our mothers, and
they were always dropping.
That hit.
You know, yeah, someone stillasked about you.
You want to know where you at.
You know, yeah, someone stillasks about you.
You want to know where you at.
You know someone still asksabout you.
And it just kept that wholecommunication going and then we
ran into each other again.
It was just like like we neverleft each other because we were
(09:18):
always still connected somewhere.
Remie (09:21):
Yeah, and I remember too, like um, reaching out to my mom
, and I had reached out to you afew times.
Like I said, we talked back andforth a few times.
But when I say a few times,we're talking about maybe three
times over.
At that point, like what, sixyears, five, six years?
So you know it was hey, justbasically acknowledging you
(09:43):
still exist, hope, everythingcool.
You know, basically, you know,by that time I worked from like
oh, this, you know I'm fresh, Iain't never been to adult prison
.
I'm moving now, I'm in my ownlane, I got my own stuff going.
So I'm like I ain't reallylooking out for nobody, like if
I seen, I seen.
Looking out for nobody, like ifI seen him, I seen him.
(10:03):
But um, when it actually evenwhen it, um, even when you
actually did come, it was awhile until we were in the same
block.
But when we were in the sameblock it was like it was
basically like county again,like the comfort level.
You know we been together, youknow that's my brother.
Kel (10:28):
Yeah, and I appreciated that, and that's where.
That's where.
That is where I did, too.
You know, I'm very.
It was in the process of allthat.
We became family, though, andthat is.
That's the rarity in prisonwithin itself.
All right, I look at you likemy little bro.
Remie (10:44):
I'm telling you, even the fact that we knew each other
from county really don't mattertoo much, because what we're
talking about here is we'retalking about the fact that,
yeah, we know each other.
(11:04):
But even then I knew dudes.
Well, I came across dudes thatI had met throughout my life,
whether it was high school,middle school, whatever and they
come up to me hey, what's up,bro?
And I'm like nigga, I don'tknow.
You Like calm down, because forreal I don't know what you off
into and I don't want yourproblems to become my problems.
But when we had linked up again, it was like dang, like finally
(11:28):
somebody I can trust to talkabout stuff with.
You know, stuff going on thatyou don't really get a chance to
acknowledge and give the properattention to because you ain't
got nobody to talk to.
You cannot I don't care whatnobody say go down to mental
health, talk to nobody out there.
You know you can't just meetnobody and just get to opening
up out there.
You know you, you can't justmeet nobody and just get to
opening up.
(11:48):
So finally, when it's stuffgoing on at home and all this,
you like damn, bro, like pullthe box out, let's talk, because
otherwise you would just keepit in and you know you ain't
really working on yourselfotherwise, you know that's a
fact.
Kel (12:02):
So so you remember, um, we were at Grafton and we were in
the back day room and I think Iwas getting ready to leave um
and be released, but before Iwas explaining to you how I
built my credit up, you know, um, and essentially just started
(12:22):
rebuilding everything, thatconversation that we had I never
talked to anybody else aboutjust on the basis of it was like
, oh all, right, so in the endprison is that right?
It does.
I hate every minute of it.
But, as you know, I'm one ofthose people to where it's like,
if I have to be here, I, by thedecisions that I made, that
(12:47):
brought me here.
If I have to be here, I have tomake this count for something.
And so while I was in there, youknow, took the credit classes
and you know all the programmingand everything.
But just on the side, you know,I pretty much figured out how
to.
Since I had family supportsending me money to put on the
(13:10):
books that I can get to be whatI need, I figured out a way to
do my credit off of it.
And then I shared thatinformation with you because I'm
, like my ideology, became aperson that's returning home to
society needs to have a goodcredit score right, because with
that you're able to purchase avehicle which is your reliable
(13:34):
transportation to get more fromwork.
You know you're trying to get ahouse or somebody.
That's for substance.
You don't want to live in thehood if you're trying to get
away from the nonsense, but ifyou got a poor credit score,
poor employment and poortransportation, your options are
limited.
And so once I realized that itjust so away from the nonsense,
but if you got a poor creditscore, poor employment and poor
transportation, your options arelimited.
(13:54):
Once I realized that, it justso happened that I figured that
out around the time that welinked up in Grafton.
I was sharing that informationwith you because I wanted you to
succeed.
You know what I mean.
Remie (14:09):
And I appreciate that too , because I actually did put
that to good know what I mean.
And I appreciate that too,cause I actually did put that to
good use.
I mean between you and mycousin when I came home he
actually did like credit repairand stuff, but I mean between
the two of y'all putting thatseed.
I instantly started working onmy credit.
I didn't really have the timeto get to it while I was in
there, cause I got out like whatNine months after you or
(14:30):
something.
But when I get out I was likestraight to it and I mean within
the first year I was well upinto the you know, the 700s, mid
700s, like.
If you in there and you can, ifyou got the support on the
outside to help you startbuilding credit as soon as
possible, throw you on some ofthe trade lines if they're
(14:51):
responsible with them.
It matters, and for your kidstoo.
For your kids it matters morethan you think for you to have a
lengthy credit and I appreciatethat, bro, I thank you.
Kel (15:07):
For sure, for sure.
But that just goes back to thejourney of incarceration in
comparison to the ideology inprison is you don't get close to
people, you don't talk topeople, you keep to yourself.
But then there are those littlegems, those little moments when
people cross your path and it'sjust like you know what.
(15:29):
They're all big mistakes.
Anybody got a story.
But there are still civilpeople, you know, that have just
made a mistake.
That's the reality of, and thisis my opinion, that's the
reality of prison, right, don'tget me wrong.
There are some messed up people, right, that deserve to
actually be behind bars.
Right, I agree with that 100%.
(15:52):
And then there are people, goodpeople, that just make a
mistake, right?
Remie (15:59):
Yeah, I met some of the smartest, most talented people
that I ever met in my life inprison, like facts for real.
Like like facts for real and um, I learned some of the most
valuable lessons in my life frompeople in prison, you know, um,
which is why I like doing thisbecause I like giving that um
(16:22):
firsthand account, like peoplestill in prison, people have
come home from prison like shareyour experience, because really
, society just paints us aswe're a bunch of people behind a
fence, working out and ready tocome out here and reoffend,
like just all we waiting for isa chance to make a victim out of
somebody.
Right, you know, and that'sreally not the case, like it's
(16:45):
really not Sometimes, most ofthe time, yeah, Most of the time
, most of the time and, truth betold, all right.
Kel (16:55):
So this is just, you know, just being forthright and open
for a second.
So you know, I had got out andthe whole credit thing I was
talking about, everything wasperfect, got out, bought cars,
bought houses, startedbusinesses, everything was going
great, right, and theneverything blew up in my face
(17:19):
Self-inflicted, of course,because at the core of it all,
one of the things that I did notaddress was my emotional
baggage.
Right, and, like you had saidearlier, we don't talk to mental
health.
People don't talk to you asmales.
(17:41):
Right, we're taught to be likethese strong people.
I can handle it, right, um, butmental health is a real thing
and I hadn't come to grips withmy emotional baggage and, as a
result, you know, I ended upgetting into an altercation and
ended up coming back Not proudof it.
But it was at that moment inlife that I just kind of said
(18:05):
you know what I'm tired.
So you know, I come home,everything is great, I'm doing
good, and then, boom, here I am.
I come home, everything isgreat, I'm doing good, and then
boom, here I am.
I said this has to stop.
So one of the things that I hadto break out of was that adage
of we don't talk to mentalhealth.
I finally had to just embraceit and say you know what, hey, I
need some mental health, I needsome help.
Remie (18:27):
There are people that want to go to mental health in
prison.
I ain't going to lie man, Iwould have loved to have gone
over to mental health and gottenhelp, but in prison it seems
like even in medical, nobody'slooking out for you as an inmate
, even the medical professionals.
It's really us against them.
(18:49):
It's not always unjustified.
I mean, like we said, there'ssome people that's in there and
they did something wrong.
They're trying to get back ontheir feet and learn from it,
and it's other people in therethat are straight scumbags.
They're trying to get over.
So yeah, when you go to mentalhealth, when you go to medical,
first thing they do is think oh,you're just trying to get some
(19:10):
drugs, you're just trying to.
You know you're trying to geton the mental health caseload so
you can get some drugs, getsome SSI, finesse the system,
you know, which really makes ithard for the people.
That's like yo, I need help inthere, tell them a bunch of
personal stuff and then had a COback on the block with all your
information.
(19:30):
You know, like all thisprivileged personal information,
and because the CO has to be inthe medical wing, he done heard
all of it, or they done talkedabout it.
He done came back, told anotherCO.
Now you looking like boo-boo.
You know You're like what thefuck?
Why did I even go down thereand they ain't help me?
They ain't help me anyway andit's weird because the inmate
(19:56):
wants to get on the caseload.
The inmate wants to get on thecaseload so they can get
medication, they can get SSI.
Whatever the staff side, theyeither don't want to give you
medication or they're like fuckit, but I'm on a case, so so
like you fighting, but you don'teven know which way you going,
they like all right, we'll giveyou some medication.
You like, nah, I don't, I don'tthink I need that.
(20:16):
Next thing, you know youwalking around like a zombie
cause they didn't put you on allthis.
You know craziness, back fromtaking meds, psych meds, in
prison.
Kel (20:29):
They tried to give it to him.
I don't want the medication.
Remie (20:33):
It's real hard trying to fight that battle man of.
I need to talk to somebody, Ineed some help, but I can't
trust the system.
And then when you get out,unfortunately you got that
residual like I can't trust thesystem when really you should be
going to try to find somemental health, whether it's just
(20:53):
a simple therapist, whether itis some type of medication to
help with anything.
You got going on depression,anxiety, whatever.
But I mean, after going throughthe system, you're like I ain't
taking that shit, I don't neednobody, I ain't messing with
y'all.
And really when you first getout, that's the time them.
You like I ain't taking thatshit, I don't need nobody, I I
ain't messing with y'all.
And really when you first getout, that's the time, that's the
best time to seek mental health, uh treatment, because it's
(21:17):
basically all covered by thestate.
So for anybody listening, ifyou need that help, like reach
out, especially once you get out, because you know nine times
out of ten you didn't get thathelp inside.
Get, especially once you getout, because you know nine times
out of ten you didn't get thathelp inside.
Get that help when you get out,man, and not just for getting
on the caseload, not just forgetting SSI and trying to
(21:39):
finesse the system, but reallytry to work through your demons
and your baggage so you can moveon.
So I'm guessing that's what youdid, right?
Kel (21:50):
Yeah, go ahead so you can move on.
Can I give a disclaimer?
I'm guessing that's what youdid right yeah, go ahead.
I'm going to give a disclaimerto all that are listening right,
get out of your own way, right,meaning?
I know we have the stereotypeof males to.
You know, we're men, we canhandle our problems.
Sometimes we can't, and it'sokay to admit that we can't.
(22:14):
None of us are, you know, justthat strong that we can just do
it on our own.
It's impossible.
And my advice is, you know,don't let our pride get in the
way, don't let your ego get inthe way.
You know, accept the helpbecause in the end, it's let
your ego get in the way.
You know.
Accept the help because in theend, it's only going to make you
better.
And I'm speaking that fromexperience, because I was that
(22:37):
person that let my ego get inthe way all the time and saying
you know I'm not going, I got it.
I don't need anybody telling mewhat to do, I'll figure it out.
Just do it.
You know it's going to help.
Get the help.
It's okay, get the help.
Remie (22:54):
Yeah, that is not a sign of weakness or nothing.
Man, go ahead.
It's cool to lean on people,man, ask for help, admit when
you're not okay, because thebaggage that you got going on,
and you know another stereotypeof us man is we are, we want to
(23:15):
be leaders, so we trying to goand lead somebody else's life
and we still ain't got rid ofall this baggage and stuff that
we carrying around.
Like you, you, you about tomess somebody else's life up.
You know.
Yeah, that's that's great.
Uh, that's a great disclaimer,because one of the questions I
(23:36):
had was what is one of thehardest lessons that you've
learned over the years?
And that fits perfectly.
So, uh, to to piggyback, though.
Like what?
What is some good advice thatyou would give, like a younger
you or somebody fresh cominginto the system now, at a young
age?
Kel (23:54):
If they're coming in the system right now.
You know, fresh out, I meanfresh in you know the first
thing that I would tell themdon't try to rush into getting
to know people.
Settle into the reality ofwhere you are right.
You know there's that mythologythat you know you got to click
(24:16):
up there.
You know that there's strengthin numbers, there's strength in
individuality.
That's where the strength isright.
That's the first piece ofadvice.
Second piece of advice I wouldgive them is just I know there's
the cliche of why is it thateverybody that goes to prison
(24:37):
finds God.
If they really wanted to findGod and all this stuff, they
would have done that on thestreet.
My response to that is it iswhat it is.
However, you find them,whenever you find them, wherever
you find them, just findsomething that's going to bring
some sort of stability, somesort of higher accountability
that can begin to set some sortof path in your life, though.
(25:00):
Um, next thing I would tellthem the hardest thing for us to
do is admit that we were wrongor did something right.
Um, acceptance.
You know we got to accept thereality of it is what it is.
(25:20):
I'm here, you know.
I understand there are someinnocent people that are locked
up.
And then there's the realitythat we've all done something to
end up where we are.
Next thing aggressively set aplan.
You know, don't let the timeyou know just be wasteful, right
(25:45):
whether it be go get someeducation or get some mental
health, or get some mentalhealth, go get some vocational
programming.
If you don't have a GED, go getyour GED.
Go do something productive,because if you just come in
without some sort of plan andyou just waste that time, that
(26:07):
just channels to when you getout as well.
Now you've done nothing in herehere, you've done nothing out
there, but if you progress inhere, it'll transfer out there.
Now will it be an easytransition with everything that
you've done as far as per se,your mental health and
programming and self-awarenessand just getting yourself
(26:29):
together?
It's not going to be easy, butyou are a thousand steps ahead
when you do return.
You have one minute remaining.
By going ahead and takingadvantage of the resources than
you would if you didn't.
Remie (26:50):
I used to say that all the time, man, if you wait until
your release to start workingon yourself, you're way far
behind.
You're bound to fail for real.
If you wait until you get out,oh, I'm going to get my shit
together when I get out.
No, it's too late, bro.
I'll see you back on the nextbit.
I got in an argument withadministration about stuff that
(27:11):
I would not do.
That they wanted me to dobecause I was like yo, I'm
working on myself, and they hada hard time accepting that.
But that's all right.
They accepted it in the end andI think it worked out.
Kel (27:26):
So here's a reality that I do want to share, right about
the prison system itself.
The reality is, if you thinkabout the prison system, you
think about staff, right, thosethat work here in the
institution.
Their job security is based onthe actual incarceration of men
(27:52):
and women.
So there's a double-edged swordof saying, yes, they're here to
help you and then the otherside is they're here to destroy
you, because if they actuallyhelp fix, actually help fix a
(28:14):
population of individuals thatsociety considers miscreant and
detrimental to society, but ifthey actually fix that
percentage of people, then thatmeans that they would be out of
a job.
Remie (28:22):
Oh yeah, they're going to work themselves out into
unemployment.
Kel (28:26):
Exactly.
That is a general consensusthat people have to be really
aware of.
Yes, they're hired to help us,but they really don't want to
help us, because now you have torealize that this is their
likelihood, right, that's thereality of it.
However, that's why you, as anindividual, have to take it upon
(28:46):
yourself to fix yourself Right,and what I was about to say
earlier was the minute that theysee you actually trying to fix
yourself and like really trulycommitted Not all of them, but
you have some staff then they'llbuy into you trying to fix
yourself Right.
Then they really make theresources available to you.
(29:09):
That's right.
On this incarceration that I'mon right now um, I came in
during covid and so there wasnothing going on, but when I got
here, it was like I startedmaking my plan, and the first
thing that I said that I want todo is I want to get into the
barber school, I want to getinto some type of educational
(29:30):
program in exactly where I saidearlier, and so I had signed up.
Even though the stuff wasn'teven available yet, I still
signed up for it.
I signed up for the barbercollege and, you know, through
the powers that be the sanctionsthat were on for COVID, as far
as the no movement and things ofthat nature.
(29:51):
That stuff was lifted.
And when they lifted that, thatmade it available for us to be
able to go to school andeverything.
And as soon as they opened itup, as soon as they opened it up
, I was able to get into thefirst class in Barber School.
I completed Barber CollegeGreat and I knew I was getting
(30:11):
ready to complete Bar college.
I had signed up for college.
So as I finished up barberschool, I got into uh business
administration in order to getmy associates in business got
that and because of the fieldthat I pretty much isolated
myself, that I wanted to work in, I knew that I needed to take,
(30:32):
you know, dot training.
I needed to take OSHA training.
So I went ahead and did thatand got my certifications and
those.
So, but the more that I didthose things, the more that my
case managers and unit managerswere like hey, you know, we see,
you know on your or as or, wesee you doing x, y and z.
(30:53):
You know you can also do thisnext thing.
You know I was signed up withuh, the us department of
agriculture, to take um greenliteracy programming.
So you have to take thosenecessary steps to fix yourself.
Now that's just from theprogramming side.
(31:13):
But, as I mentioned, I finallygave in and said I need some
mental health help.
So I reached out to the mentalhealth people and, fortunately
enough, I met a good counselorand I was able to talk to him.
And I was able to talk to themand I was able to get some
things off my chest that I hadbeen carrying all my life.
And you know now, once youcomplete all those steps, you've
(31:36):
set up a recipe for success sothat when those doors do finally
open up, that's saying thatit's the perfect science or
recipe, but at least you are athousand steps ahead for success
than I would have been had Ijust did nothing.
Remie (31:52):
Yeah, that's great.
And you're right, man, aboutthe staff.
They're not buying into yourdream.
They've seen a million peoplecome through them doors and try
to sell a dream, so they're notbuying in until your actions say
, man, you're really trying tochange.
And it's not just one program,two programs, but like the whole
(32:14):
way you move got to change.
Every priority that you got gotto shift.
You know, I remember when thathappened for me.
I remember trying to get intowhat was it?
The diesel mechanics program?
And they were like ah, like, ah, yeah, no, we ain't trying to,
you know.
But there's, I was like allright, it's cool, it's a waiting
(32:35):
list, I'll be on the waitinglist, put me on.
I was like but put me on awaiting list for welding also,
and put me on a waiting list forthis and that and um, and for
college.
So I started going to collegefor a communications degree.
But afterwards, all thosewaiting lists that I was on,
like, all of a sudden they likeoh, the diesel mechanics came up
.
Okay, cool, I'm going to stayin college and I'm going to do
(32:56):
diesel mechanics.
So I dropped down to like threeclasses and they was like well,
you can't do that, why not?
So I did it, passed the dieselmechanics Like, alright, I want
my CDL.
They like oh well, you, becauseof the nature of your crime,
they love to say that shit.
They love to say that you know,because of the nature of your
(33:17):
crime, we don't want to let yougo outside the fence.
I'm like I go outside the fenceevery day to go to diesel
mechanics.
I ain't got no tickets.
I ain't got no, nothing Likewhat y'all.
So now I gotta hunt down who totalk to.
Once I talk to the right person, they like oh yeah, don't even
worry about it, I'm gonna getyou in there.
I do the, I do the um, the cdl.
At that point it wasn't nothingI could ask for that I wouldn't
(33:39):
get.
I want to do this program.
At one point I was in like I wasin um.
I was in college.
I was in the um, the, thedigital design, graphic design.
I was in c digital design,graphic design.
I was in CDL.
I was in all these differentthings.
At one time People were like,bro, how you doing that?
I'm like I just let them know Iain't taking no, I'm not taking
no.
(33:59):
I got to go home and I remembersome dudes over in Lorain got
caught bringing their cellphones and stuff, so they fired
all of them, took them all tothe hole under investigation and
they just called me like hey,I'm in finals, I'm trying to
write my finals and stuff.
And they're like hey, wechanged your job.
You got to go over there andclean the visit room over there.
(34:20):
I'm like no, they're like whatyou mean?
No, I'm like no, like I'm astudent.
That I'm like no, Like I'm astudent, that's my job.
They're like all right, well,you know, if you don't, you can
go to the hole.
I was like well, you want topack my stuff or you want me to
pack my stuff, because if I'mnot about to get my schooling
done and I'm going to go to thehole, like either way, I'm not
(34:40):
getting my way.
So we go ahead and make thisthe hard way.
And they're like man, I need totalk to the case manager.
He ain't coming in untiltomorrow.
Bro, I went and cleaned the room, I did my homework while I was
over there and the first thingin the morning I was out there
to see the case manager.
I was like yo, I need to letyou know that I quit.
He was like oh, you can't quit.
(35:00):
I was like no, you don'tunderstand, I'm not quitting.
I already quit like I'm astudent.
Hey, dude, look at me.
Like what the fuck man Like?
So I mean, we gonna get thisbed, move out the way, because I
already told them they can packmy stuff.
I'm good, I'm ready.
They like ah, man, well, youtake that away.
They can't threaten you withgoing to the hole, like I'm
already in prison.
(35:21):
I'm trying to work on myself.
You're in my way of becoming abetter person and think about
that for a second.
Kel (35:28):
I don't mean to interrupt, but just think about that for a
second.
How do you go to jail in jail?
That was always a philosophythat you got to be a really
ignorant person.
To go to jail in jail, my bad,go ahead.
Remie (35:39):
No, no, you're good.
You got to be a really ignorantperson to threaten somebody to
go to jail in jail, but for youto fall for it at the same time
is equally just asinine, becauseI'm like, so you're going to
move me from one part of theprison to another part of the
(36:02):
prison, but I'm still going tobe in prison, right, cool, let's
do it Right.
I mean, I don't know, butanyway, that was just my little
go ahead and vent thing.
But to bring this all aroundthough, we did the time, we made
the best of the time.
I'm proud of you for using yourtime better this time around,
man, because you know,previously it was bit mode and
(36:24):
this time it seemed to be justfrom day one, preparing, you
know, and focusing on what wasmore important, which was
working on yourself mentalhealth, family, what's that?
Yeah.
Kel (36:38):
What was different for me this time is the other
incarceration, because I didn'twant to accept that I was in
prison.
I didn't want to accept that Iwas receiving discipline or on
time out or punishment.
So I made the incarceration fun.
You know I was doing this,doing that, getting into this,
getting into that.
You know, this time around Isat down and took it all in,
(37:03):
like, oh, this is a punishment,this is real.
I did something for me to behere and I made this time hell
on purpose.
I allowed the negativity.
I I allowed myself to feel thenegativity this time right,
because when I walk out of here,I hate this place so much that
(37:27):
that's the leading factor in mydecisions, that I hate and have
a disgust for this place so muchthat every decision I make is
designed to prevent me frombeing in a position to be in a
place that I hate, which issomething I didn't do in the
(37:48):
past.
And another thing that I wantedto add we can't forget about the
family element, that familysupport right, and that is the
most critical thing.
A lot of us don't have familysupport.
My mother supported me.
My aunt and uncle supported me.
My wife she supported me.
How'd that go?
(38:08):
Uncle supporting me, my wife,she's supporting me, so how'd
that go?
But that family support, youknow, I I gotta give the thanks
you know to them.
If you have it, cherish it andrecognize that us being away
from our families impacts theirability to grow, because they
have essentially put their liveson hold because of our
(38:30):
statistics right, so they'rewaiting for us to come home with
level heads and sane heads sothat we can become a part of
that family unit again andeverything get back on track.
So that's the other thing tokeep in mind.
Like, while you're here,recognize that your family,
especially if they're supportingyou.
Let that be the guiding factorto your decision-making of how
(38:54):
can I help benefit my familywhen I come home and hurt them
again.
I just wanted to put that inthere too, but yeah.
Remie (39:02):
We often forget that we're missing from our families
while we're in prison.
We often just like we on thephone and we thinking like we
still in the mix and that's nice, you know.
It's nice that they allow us tothink that for real.
But, to be honest, you need tounderstand that you went from a
leader of your household toanother dependent.
(39:22):
You don't run shit, so get thatin your head and that's a hard
pill to swallow for real.
But then also, um, for yourfamily, man, it's nice and they
need to understand that you arean alpha and you are away from
the pack.
They gotta open up room for youto come back in so things flow
(39:43):
smoothly.
So there's not this powerdynamic because they've been
holding it down without you.
They have become the alpha inthe house and now it's this like
okay, where can I pick up?
Let's work together, because alot of dudes I seen it, man they
come back and they like it's myshit?
Like nah, bruh, it's really not.
(40:04):
But okay, I'm gonna let youthink that until problems happen
, which they inevitably will,you know right.
But yeah, um, you know you, youat the end now you, you.
Well, I hate using that termyou're not at the end.
You, you coming up on releasebecause I tell people this ain't
the end.
This, this is the beginning.
(40:24):
This is the beginning theeverything you do in there that
we just talked about preparing.
That's the prequel, like weready for game day now, and
congratulations on that.
Kel (40:36):
I appreciate that, bro.
Remie (40:38):
Congratulations on where you've grown to in preparation
for it.
Kel (40:44):
Man, forget about me.
Congratulations to you.
I don't want to let it gounnoticed.
Right, I've been watching youall this time.
I've watched you succeed as afamily man.
I've watched you succeed as abusinessman.
I've watched you succeed asjust an individual, from that
dude that I met in 2008, rightto here.
(41:05):
It is 2025, right, you knowwe've kept in contact all this
time, but I'm inspired by you,believe it or not, right?
But that just goes back to 2008, when I said this young man has
a good head on his shoulder.
Right, when you see somebodythat has a good head on their
shoulder, you got to empowerthat individual.
(41:26):
You got to empower it, becauseall it takes is to get up.
I've been watching you at thewife and kids and houses and
businesses.
You're doing your thing.
You're staying out of here.
That's commendable.
I got to give you your flowers,too, though.
Keep up the good work, man.
(41:47):
I'm proud of you.
Thanks, man, thanks.
Remie (41:49):
Keep up the good work, man.
I'm proud of you.
Thanks, man.
Thanks, that means a lot, and Ijust had a conversation with
somebody about this man thatrecognizing that it's people in
there that are using me as anexample and inspiration is, in
itself, an inspiration for me tokeep doing good, because I know
(42:11):
that not only do I have a lotto lose out here, but I could
potentially fuck up the rolethat I play in all these other
people's lives.
So, yeah, thanks, man.
Thanks for that recognition.
Kel (42:26):
For sure you do.
Keep it up, man.
Remie (42:30):
I'll see you soon.
Yeah, I will, man, and I'll behere for you, bro.
Like you know, I'm alwaystrying to give some game for
free, man, all the hard earnedlessons that I learned, cause
I'm not telling you that it wasa straight line up, it
definitely was not, but it'll bea chance to give some of that
(42:51):
game that you gave me.
Give it back, you know For sure, only to the wide, so you got
any closing thoughts.
Man, you got any closingthoughts you want to end it off
with?
Kel (43:02):
Closing thoughts.
Man, first thing about prisonis don't come to prison.
If whatever element out therethat would even lead you to here
, change it, get rid of it, slowyour life down, but if you do
have to come, make the best outof it.
Make your time count.
I'm happy.
It's an unfortunate situationbut I know that I'm light years
(43:26):
ahead and I feel that I'm readyto be successful, to take care
of my family, and I'm glad thatI have influential people like
yourself in my life, keeping mycircle small.
And I'm just waiting for thatdoor to open up so I can go
ahead and do what's planned.
(43:47):
Don't come to me, great man.
Remie (43:54):
As always, man, because I love to talk and give my two
cents.
I'm going to give my little twocents to people out there man
that's going through it, orpeople that's supporting people
going through it and that'sbefore you can make any type of
great change or before you canmake change in somebody else,
you first got to change thethings that define them.
(44:16):
So when you say that you focuson success, you can't be
successful until you definesuccess.
Remember when we was in thestreets, we wanted to be
successful, and successful wasgetting a bottle, getting the
girls, getting the weed, gettingthe move and how we was moving.
That was successful to us.
(44:37):
So you couldn't tell us we werenot successful and that we
needed to straighten up.
So you know, work on thefoundations.
That's all I'm going to say.
Kel (44:48):
I agree with you 100%.
Remie (44:52):
All right, man, all right , and with that we're going to
wrap this one up.
DJ (45:08):
The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a part of
the Buzzsprout PodcastCommunity Network.
Audio engineering is done byour very own Remy Jones.
You can reach out to us withany feedback, questions,
comments or share the love byemailing stories at
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Stories at lockdown2 tolegacycom.
(45:29):
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Please don't forget to rate,review and subscribe.
Thanks for listening.
Hey everybody, welcome back to season two of Lockdown
to Legacy.
I'm your host, Remy Jones, andfrom time to time I will be
joined by my co-host, dj, whojust so happens to also be my
awesome sauce wife.
I also have a couple of closefriends that are still
incarcerated who will be regularcontributors and together we
(00:33):
will bring you the real ondealing with the criminal
justice system from multipleangles.
A lot of what we share will bereal experiences from both
currently and formerlyincarcerated people like myself,
along with current events thataffect those impacted by the
legal system.
So thank you for tapping in,thank you for sticking with us
from season one.
Now let's get to it.
(00:53):
Hey, lockdown and Legacy fans,I want to thank you guys for
sticking with us during ourhiatus and I want to welcome you
guys back to Season 2.
(01:14):
This is our Episode 2.
And we got a guest.
This is one of my good friends.
You know most of these guys aremy friends from the inside, but
this guy actually knew somewhatbefore I went to prison, but
we'll get into that later in theepisode.
So he decided he wanted to doan interview.
(01:36):
He is approaching release.
He had previously served, Ithink, 11 years and then got out
for a few years and,unfortunately, was one of those
recidivism statistics, and sothis time, having learned a
(01:56):
lesson and experienced somegrowth in there, he decided that
he wanted to share his story.
So I'm much appreciative of him, and I hope you guys are too,
and I hope you guys learnsomething or gain some insight
from not only the successstories that we share, but also
some of the ones who you knowhave a harder time or take a
(02:17):
little longer to learn thoselessons.
Nonetheless, though, it's notabout how long it takes us to
get there.
It's about the fact that wemade it so without further ado.
Here's my man, cal this call isfrom a drc correctional facility
(02:38):
and is subject to monitoringand recording.
Utilization of an unapprovedapplication and three-way calls
to communicate are strictlyprohibited and a violation of
DRC policy.
Thank you for using GTL.
Thank you for using GTL.
What's up, bro?
How are you man?
What's up with my bro?
Ain't that much man, Ain't thatmuch at all, Just, you know,
(03:01):
trying to weather the cold.
Kel (03:05):
Man, listen, I just got up, maybe not too long ago.
What woke me up was everybody,man, it's cold, it's cold, it's
cold outside, it must be coldoutside, but how you been, I'm
hanging, I'm hanging, so, buthow you?
Remie (03:27):
been, though I'm hanging.
I'm hanging, so first off, youknow I like to have people
introduce themselves.
I'll let everybody know.
This is my good friend Kale.
How long have we known eachother, kale 16?
.
Kel (03:42):
Man, we met in 2008, 2008, 2008, yep, so you know, uh, it
was unfortunate situation, butat the same time, you know,
sometimes an unfortunatesituation, when utilized
(04:02):
properly, can turn into a goodthing.
But, yeah, 2008, man.
Remie (04:06):
Yeah, so 2008,.
You know, we were actually inthe county jail, both fighting
for our lives against thissystem that I ain't going to use
no adjectives to describe.
But yeah, we was in there andthey're going through it, man.
Yeah, we was in there andthey're going through it, man.
And we was in the same blockand really didn't cross paths
(04:29):
until we went on visit and ourmothers actually linked up as
support, spiritual support, andso you know, of course, how moms
do.
Oh, I met a lady, her son, inthere.
You need to go talk to him.
Y'all need to lean on eachother and stay strong.
I'm like, yeah, don't worryabout that in here.
(04:50):
But you know, we did end upcrossing paths and I mean it was
cool.
It was cool.
We did kind of look out for eachother in there.
I was new to the prison, youknow.
So once I realized again I'mabout to go down, you know it
was kind of like a big brothersituation, you know, gave me
(05:10):
some advice and stuff, let meknow what I was about to be, you
know what to expect, and Iappreciated that.
And then, you know, we, weexchanged information and we
both start you know our separatepaths um, to doing time, and
once again it was like, yeah, weexchanged information, a letter
(05:30):
or two might have been written,but it was mainly our mothers
that kind of kept it going.
And then I mean, I went to what?
Toledo?
And you, um, I don't know whereyou went first.
Kel (05:45):
I went.
After I left the county, I wentto Lorain and then from Lorain
I went to Lake Erie and thenfrom Lake Erie I went to Grafton
Right.
But what I wanted to say, as Iwas listening to you when we met
in the county right, this is atrue story.
Anybody that knows me for realknows that I'm a real private
(06:05):
county.
Right, this is a true story.
Anybody that knows me for realknows that I'm a real private
person, right.
So when you said the wholething about I became like a big
brother and everything Inormally don't do that right,
like when you're in the countyand you see somebody else, at
that point it's every man forthemselves.
Facts, facts.
Remie (06:25):
Facts, because you ain't trying to have nobody's problems
become yours, and I think Italked about it in another
episode.
Like prison, snitches is real.
There's dudes in there that'lllisten to all your stories.
Get close and go talk to theirlawyer like all right.
Yeah, I got the scoop.
Kel (06:40):
Yeah, get me.
Yeah, get me out of here.
I got some information for you,but I don't know what it was
about you.
I think it was.
I think we played a game ofchess and as we were playing a
game of chess, I was listeningto you and one of the things
that I picked up about you wasthat, alright, the young man got
(07:02):
a good head on his shoulders.
So as long as I know thatyou're young man, got a good
head on his shoulders, so aslong as I know that you're
somebody that has a good head onyour shoulders, I'll talk to
you.
And in the process of listeningto you, I'm like, all right.
And then that's what opened upthe door for us to even start
talking in the first place,because if he was one of them
other ones, I'd have just keptit moving.
Remie (07:23):
Yeah, we call them crash dummies for anybody who don't
know.
County jail full of crashdummies.
Dudes that I mean.
To be honest, it's just soboring in there.
And then you're dealing withthis loss of freedom so you're
angry.
I literally know dudes thatwould go get in a fight because
they was bored.
They would go steal somebody'sstuff brazenly, broad daylight
(07:45):
no sneaking about it justbecause they want somebody to
come find them, or they, youknow, flood these toilets.
Try to flush their whole blanketdown their toilet so the COs
would come in there with theriot gear, like it's.
You definitely got to becareful who you hit your cart to
in the county man or in prisonin general, because it's easy to
(08:06):
let somebody in and it's hardto get somebody out.
Kel (08:10):
That's the fact.
Once they're in your business,oh my God, they feel like
they're entitled to you, to yourpresence, your energy, and at
some point it's actually betterto just not know anybody.
Just keep to yourself, that'sthe best way.
Yeah, but the other part, whenhe was talking about our moms
listen, true story I wasspeaking with my mom the other
(08:33):
day and she was asking aboutyour mom, and I just go to show
like our moms have been like atrue catalyst between us,
because I just kept thinking,think about it.
I'm like if our moms didn'tkeep in contact, I don't know if
we would have kept in contact,because once you went your
direction and I went mydirection, our communication
(08:56):
stopped.
But we were always in contactwith our, with our mothers, and
they were always dropping.
That hit.
You know, yeah, someone stillasked about you.
You want to know where you at.
You know, yeah, someone stillasks about you.
You want to know where you at.
You know someone still asksabout you.
And it just kept that wholecommunication going and then we
ran into each other again.
It was just like like we neverleft each other because we were
(09:18):
always still connected somewhere.
Remie (09:21):
Yeah, and I remember too, like um, reaching out to my mom
, and I had reached out to you afew times.
Like I said, we talked back andforth a few times.
But when I say a few times,we're talking about maybe three
times over.
At that point, like what, sixyears, five, six years?
So you know it was hey, justbasically acknowledging you
(09:43):
still exist, hope, everythingcool.
You know, basically, you know,by that time I worked from like
oh, this, you know I'm fresh, Iain't never been to adult prison
.
I'm moving now, I'm in my ownlane, I got my own stuff going.
So I'm like I ain't reallylooking out for nobody, like if
I seen, I seen.
Looking out for nobody, like ifI seen him, I seen him.
(10:03):
But um, when it actually evenwhen it, um, even when you
actually did come, it was awhile until we were in the same
block.
But when we were in the sameblock it was like it was
basically like county again,like the comfort level.
You know we been together, youknow that's my brother.
Kel (10:28):
Yeah, and I appreciated that, and that's where.
That's where.
That is where I did, too.
You know, I'm very.
It was in the process of allthat.
We became family, though, andthat is.
That's the rarity in prisonwithin itself.
All right, I look at you likemy little bro.
Remie (10:44):
I'm telling you, even the fact that we knew each other
from county really don't mattertoo much, because what we're
talking about here is we'retalking about the fact that,
yeah, we know each other.
(11:04):
But even then I knew dudes.
Well, I came across dudes thatI had met throughout my life,
whether it was high school,middle school, whatever and they
come up to me hey, what's up,bro?
And I'm like nigga, I don'tknow.
You Like calm down, because forreal I don't know what you off
into and I don't want yourproblems to become my problems.
But when we had linked up again, it was like dang, like finally
(11:28):
somebody I can trust to talkabout stuff with.
You know, stuff going on thatyou don't really get a chance to
acknowledge and give the properattention to because you ain't
got nobody to talk to.
You cannot I don't care whatnobody say go down to mental
health, talk to nobody out there.
You know you can't just meetnobody and just get to opening
up out there.
You know you, you can't justmeet nobody and just get to
opening up.
(11:48):
So finally, when it's stuffgoing on at home and all this,
you like damn, bro, like pullthe box out, let's talk, because
otherwise you would just keepit in and you know you ain't
really working on yourselfotherwise, you know that's a
fact.
Kel (12:02):
So so you remember, um, we were at Grafton and we were in
the back day room and I think Iwas getting ready to leave um
and be released, but before Iwas explaining to you how I
built my credit up, you know, um, and essentially just started
(12:22):
rebuilding everything, thatconversation that we had I never
talked to anybody else aboutjust on the basis of it was like
, oh all, right, so in the endprison is that right?
It does.
I hate every minute of it.
But, as you know, I'm one ofthose people to where it's like,
if I have to be here, I, by thedecisions that I made, that
(12:47):
brought me here.
If I have to be here, I have tomake this count for something.
And so while I was in there, youknow, took the credit classes
and you know all the programmingand everything.
But just on the side, you know,I pretty much figured out how
to.
Since I had family supportsending me money to put on the
(13:10):
books that I can get to be whatI need, I figured out a way to
do my credit off of it.
And then I shared thatinformation with you because I'm
, like my ideology, became aperson that's returning home to
society needs to have a goodcredit score right, because with
that you're able to purchase avehicle which is your reliable
(13:34):
transportation to get more fromwork.
You know you're trying to get ahouse or somebody.
That's for substance.
You don't want to live in thehood if you're trying to get
away from the nonsense, but ifyou got a poor credit score,
poor employment and poortransportation, your options are
limited.
And so once I realized that itjust so away from the nonsense,
but if you got a poor creditscore, poor employment and poor
transportation, your options arelimited.
(13:54):
Once I realized that, it justso happened that I figured that
out around the time that welinked up in Grafton.
I was sharing that informationwith you because I wanted you to
succeed.
You know what I mean.
Remie (14:09):
And I appreciate that too , because I actually did put
that to good know what I mean.
And I appreciate that too,cause I actually did put that to
good use.
I mean between you and mycousin when I came home he
actually did like credit repairand stuff, but I mean between
the two of y'all putting thatseed.
I instantly started working onmy credit.
I didn't really have the timeto get to it while I was in
there, cause I got out like whatNine months after you or
(14:30):
something.
But when I get out I was likestraight to it and I mean within
the first year I was well upinto the you know, the 700s, mid
700s, like.
If you in there and you can, ifyou got the support on the
outside to help you startbuilding credit as soon as
possible, throw you on some ofthe trade lines if they're
(14:51):
responsible with them.
It matters, and for your kidstoo.
For your kids it matters morethan you think for you to have a
lengthy credit and I appreciatethat, bro, I thank you.
Kel (15:07):
For sure, for sure.
But that just goes back to thejourney of incarceration in
comparison to the ideology inprison is you don't get close to
people, you don't talk topeople, you keep to yourself.
But then there are those littlegems, those little moments when
people cross your path and it'sjust like you know what.
(15:29):
They're all big mistakes.
Anybody got a story.
But there are still civilpeople, you know, that have just
made a mistake.
That's the reality of, and thisis my opinion, that's the
reality of prison, right, don'tget me wrong.
There are some messed up people, right, that deserve to
actually be behind bars.
Right, I agree with that 100%.
(15:52):
And then there are people, goodpeople, that just make a
mistake, right?
Remie (15:59):
Yeah, I met some of the smartest, most talented people
that I ever met in my life inprison, like facts for real.
Like like facts for real and um, I learned some of the most
valuable lessons in my life frompeople in prison, you know, um,
which is why I like doing thisbecause I like giving that um
(16:22):
firsthand account, like peoplestill in prison, people have
come home from prison like shareyour experience, because really
, society just paints us aswe're a bunch of people behind a
fence, working out and ready tocome out here and reoffend,
like just all we waiting for isa chance to make a victim out of
somebody.
Right, you know, and that'sreally not the case, like it's
(16:45):
really not Sometimes, most ofthe time, yeah, Most of the time
, most of the time and, truth betold, all right.
Kel (16:55):
So this is just, you know, just being forthright and open
for a second.
So you know, I had got out andthe whole credit thing I was
talking about, everything wasperfect, got out, bought cars,
bought houses, startedbusinesses, everything was going
great, right, and theneverything blew up in my face
(17:19):
Self-inflicted, of course,because at the core of it all,
one of the things that I did notaddress was my emotional
baggage.
Right, and, like you had saidearlier, we don't talk to mental
health.
People don't talk to you asmales.
(17:41):
Right, we're taught to be likethese strong people.
I can handle it, right, um, butmental health is a real thing
and I hadn't come to grips withmy emotional baggage and, as a
result, you know, I ended upgetting into an altercation and
ended up coming back Not proudof it.
But it was at that moment inlife that I just kind of said
(18:05):
you know what I'm tired.
So you know, I come home,everything is great, I'm doing
good, and then, boom, here I am.
I come home, everything isgreat, I'm doing good, and then
boom, here I am.
I said this has to stop.
So one of the things that I hadto break out of was that adage
of we don't talk to mentalhealth.
I finally had to just embraceit and say you know what, hey, I
need some mental health, I needsome help.
Remie (18:27):
There are people that want to go to mental health in
prison.
I ain't going to lie man, Iwould have loved to have gone
over to mental health and gottenhelp, but in prison it seems
like even in medical, nobody'slooking out for you as an inmate
, even the medical professionals.
It's really us against them.
(18:49):
It's not always unjustified.
I mean, like we said, there'ssome people that's in there and
they did something wrong.
They're trying to get back ontheir feet and learn from it,
and it's other people in therethat are straight scumbags.
They're trying to get over.
So yeah, when you go to mentalhealth, when you go to medical,
first thing they do is think oh,you're just trying to get some
(19:10):
drugs, you're just trying to.
You know you're trying to geton the mental health caseload so
you can get some drugs, getsome SSI, finesse the system,
you know, which really makes ithard for the people.
That's like yo, I need help inthere, tell them a bunch of
personal stuff and then had a COback on the block with all your
information.
(19:30):
You know, like all thisprivileged personal information,
and because the CO has to be inthe medical wing, he done heard
all of it, or they done talkedabout it.
He done came back, told anotherCO.
Now you looking like boo-boo.
You know You're like what thefuck?
Why did I even go down thereand they ain't help me?
They ain't help me anyway andit's weird because the inmate
(19:56):
wants to get on the caseload.
The inmate wants to get on thecaseload so they can get
medication, they can get SSI.
Whatever the staff side, theyeither don't want to give you
medication or they're like fuckit, but I'm on a case, so so
like you fighting, but you don'teven know which way you going,
they like all right, we'll giveyou some medication.
You like, nah, I don't, I don'tthink I need that.
(20:16):
Next thing, you know youwalking around like a zombie
cause they didn't put you on allthis.
You know craziness, back fromtaking meds, psych meds, in
prison.
Kel (20:29):
They tried to give it to him.
I don't want the medication.
Remie (20:33):
It's real hard trying to fight that battle man of.
I need to talk to somebody, Ineed some help, but I can't
trust the system.
And then when you get out,unfortunately you got that
residual like I can't trust thesystem when really you should be
going to try to find somemental health, whether it's just
(20:53):
a simple therapist, whether itis some type of medication to
help with anything.
You got going on depression,anxiety, whatever.
But I mean, after going throughthe system, you're like I ain't
taking that shit, I don't neednobody, I ain't messing with
y'all.
And really when you first getout, that's the time them.
You like I ain't taking thatshit, I don't need nobody, I I
ain't messing with y'all.
And really when you first getout, that's the time, that's the
best time to seek mental health, uh treatment, because it's
(21:17):
basically all covered by thestate.
So for anybody listening, ifyou need that help, like reach
out, especially once you get out, because you know nine times
out of ten you didn't get thathelp inside.
Get, especially once you getout, because you know nine times
out of ten you didn't get thathelp inside.
Get that help when you get out,man, and not just for getting
on the caseload, not just forgetting SSI and trying to
(21:39):
finesse the system, but reallytry to work through your demons
and your baggage so you can moveon.
So I'm guessing that's what youdid, right?
Kel (21:50):
Yeah, go ahead so you can move on.
Can I give a disclaimer?
I'm guessing that's what youdid right yeah, go ahead.
I'm going to give a disclaimerto all that are listening right,
get out of your own way, right,meaning?
I know we have the stereotypeof males to.
You know, we're men, we canhandle our problems.
Sometimes we can't, and it'sokay to admit that we can't.
(22:14):
None of us are, you know, justthat strong that we can just do
it on our own.
It's impossible.
And my advice is, you know,don't let our pride get in the
way, don't let your ego get inthe way.
You know, accept the helpbecause in the end, it's let
your ego get in the way.
You know.
Accept the help because in theend, it's only going to make you
better.
And I'm speaking that fromexperience, because I was that
(22:37):
person that let my ego get inthe way all the time and saying
you know I'm not going, I got it.
I don't need anybody telling mewhat to do, I'll figure it out.
Just do it.
You know it's going to help.
Get the help.
It's okay, get the help.
Remie (22:54):
Yeah, that is not a sign of weakness or nothing.
Man, go ahead.
It's cool to lean on people,man, ask for help, admit when
you're not okay, because thebaggage that you got going on,
and you know another stereotypeof us man is we are, we want to
(23:15):
be leaders, so we trying to goand lead somebody else's life
and we still ain't got rid ofall this baggage and stuff that
we carrying around.
Like you, you, you about tomess somebody else's life up.
You know.
Yeah, that's that's great.
Uh, that's a great disclaimer,because one of the questions I
(23:36):
had was what is one of thehardest lessons that you've
learned over the years?
And that fits perfectly.
So, uh, to to piggyback, though.
Like what?
What is some good advice thatyou would give, like a younger
you or somebody fresh cominginto the system now, at a young
age?
Kel (23:54):
If they're coming in the system right now.
You know, fresh out, I meanfresh in you know the first
thing that I would tell themdon't try to rush into getting
to know people.
Settle into the reality ofwhere you are right.
You know there's that mythologythat you know you got to click
(24:16):
up there.
You know that there's strengthin numbers, there's strength in
individuality.
That's where the strength isright.
That's the first piece ofadvice.
Second piece of advice I wouldgive them is just I know there's
the cliche of why is it thateverybody that goes to prison
(24:37):
finds God.
If they really wanted to findGod and all this stuff, they
would have done that on thestreet.
My response to that is it iswhat it is.
However, you find them,whenever you find them, wherever
you find them, just findsomething that's going to bring
some sort of stability, somesort of higher accountability
that can begin to set some sortof path in your life, though.
(25:00):
Um, next thing I would tellthem the hardest thing for us to
do is admit that we were wrongor did something right.
Um, acceptance.
You know we got to accept thereality of it is what it is.
(25:20):
I'm here, you know.
I understand there are someinnocent people that are locked
up.
And then there's the realitythat we've all done something to
end up where we are.
Next thing aggressively set aplan.
You know, don't let the timeyou know just be wasteful, right
(25:45):
whether it be go get someeducation or get some mental
health, or get some mentalhealth, go get some vocational
programming.
If you don't have a GED, go getyour GED.
Go do something productive,because if you just come in
without some sort of plan andyou just waste that time, that
(26:07):
just channels to when you getout as well.
Now you've done nothing in herehere, you've done nothing out
there, but if you progress inhere, it'll transfer out there.
Now will it be an easytransition with everything that
you've done as far as per se,your mental health and
programming and self-awarenessand just getting yourself
(26:29):
together?
It's not going to be easy, butyou are a thousand steps ahead
when you do return.
You have one minute remaining.
By going ahead and takingadvantage of the resources than
you would if you didn't.
Remie (26:50):
I used to say that all the time, man, if you wait until
your release to start workingon yourself, you're way far
behind.
You're bound to fail for real.
If you wait until you get out,oh, I'm going to get my shit
together when I get out.
No, it's too late, bro.
I'll see you back on the nextbit.
I got in an argument withadministration about stuff that
(27:11):
I would not do.
That they wanted me to dobecause I was like yo, I'm
working on myself, and they hada hard time accepting that.
But that's all right.
They accepted it in the end andI think it worked out.
Kel (27:26):
So here's a reality that I do want to share, right about
the prison system itself.
The reality is, if you thinkabout the prison system, you
think about staff, right, thosethat work here in the
institution.
Their job security is based onthe actual incarceration of men
(27:52):
and women.
So there's a double-edged swordof saying, yes, they're here to
help you and then the otherside is they're here to destroy
you, because if they actuallyhelp fix, actually help fix a
(28:14):
population of individuals thatsociety considers miscreant and
detrimental to society, but ifthey actually fix that
percentage of people, then thatmeans that they would be out of
a job.
Remie (28:22):
Oh yeah, they're going to work themselves out into
unemployment.
Kel (28:26):
Exactly.
That is a general consensusthat people have to be really
aware of.
Yes, they're hired to help us,but they really don't want to
help us, because now you have torealize that this is their
likelihood, right, that's thereality of it.
However, that's why you, as anindividual, have to take it upon
(28:46):
yourself to fix yourself Right,and what I was about to say
earlier was the minute that theysee you actually trying to fix
yourself and like really trulycommitted Not all of them, but
you have some staff then they'llbuy into you trying to fix
yourself Right.
Then they really make theresources available to you.
(29:09):
That's right.
On this incarceration that I'mon right now um, I came in
during covid and so there wasnothing going on, but when I got
here, it was like I startedmaking my plan, and the first
thing that I said that I want todo is I want to get into the
barber school, I want to getinto some type of educational
(29:30):
program in exactly where I saidearlier, and so I had signed up.
Even though the stuff wasn'teven available yet, I still
signed up for it.
I signed up for the barbercollege and, you know, through
the powers that be the sanctionsthat were on for COVID, as far
as the no movement and things ofthat nature.
(29:51):
That stuff was lifted.
And when they lifted that, thatmade it available for us to be
able to go to school andeverything.
And as soon as they opened itup, as soon as they opened it up
, I was able to get into thefirst class in Barber School.
I completed Barber CollegeGreat and I knew I was getting
(30:11):
ready to complete Bar college.
I had signed up for college.
So as I finished up barberschool, I got into uh business
administration in order to getmy associates in business got
that and because of the fieldthat I pretty much isolated
myself, that I wanted to work in, I knew that I needed to take,
(30:32):
you know, dot training.
I needed to take OSHA training.
So I went ahead and did thatand got my certifications and
those.
So, but the more that I didthose things, the more that my
case managers and unit managerswere like hey, you know, we see,
you know on your or as or, wesee you doing x, y and z.
(30:53):
You know you can also do thisnext thing.
You know I was signed up withuh, the us department of
agriculture, to take um greenliteracy programming.
So you have to take thosenecessary steps to fix yourself.
Now that's just from theprogramming side.
(31:13):
But, as I mentioned, I finallygave in and said I need some
mental health help.
So I reached out to the mentalhealth people and, fortunately
enough, I met a good counselorand I was able to talk to him.
And I was able to talk to themand I was able to get some
things off my chest that I hadbeen carrying all my life.
And you know now, once youcomplete all those steps, you've
(31:36):
set up a recipe for success sothat when those doors do finally
open up, that's saying thatit's the perfect science or
recipe, but at least you are athousand steps ahead for success
than I would have been had Ijust did nothing.
Remie (31:52):
Yeah, that's great.
And you're right, man, aboutthe staff.
They're not buying into yourdream.
They've seen a million peoplecome through them doors and try
to sell a dream, so they're notbuying in until your actions say
, man, you're really trying tochange.
And it's not just one program,two programs, but like the whole
(32:14):
way you move got to change.
Every priority that you got gotto shift.
You know, I remember when thathappened for me.
I remember trying to get intowhat was it?
The diesel mechanics program?
And they were like ah, like, ah, yeah, no, we ain't trying to,
you know.
But there's, I was like allright, it's cool, it's a waiting
(32:35):
list, I'll be on the waitinglist, put me on.
I was like but put me on awaiting list for welding also,
and put me on a waiting list forthis and that and um, and for
college.
So I started going to collegefor a communications degree.
But afterwards, all thosewaiting lists that I was on,
like, all of a sudden they likeoh, the diesel mechanics came up
.
Okay, cool, I'm going to stayin college and I'm going to do
(32:56):
diesel mechanics.
So I dropped down to like threeclasses and they was like well,
you can't do that, why not?
So I did it, passed the dieselmechanics Like, alright, I want
my CDL.
They like oh well, you, becauseof the nature of your crime,
they love to say that shit.
They love to say that you know,because of the nature of your
(33:17):
crime, we don't want to let yougo outside the fence.
I'm like I go outside the fenceevery day to go to diesel
mechanics.
I ain't got no tickets.
I ain't got no, nothing Likewhat y'all.
So now I gotta hunt down who totalk to.
Once I talk to the right person, they like oh yeah, don't even
worry about it, I'm gonna getyou in there.
I do the, I do the um, the cdl.
At that point it wasn't nothingI could ask for that I wouldn't
(33:39):
get.
I want to do this program.
At one point I was in like I wasin um.
I was in college.
I was in the um, the, thedigital design, graphic design.
I was in c digital design,graphic design.
I was in CDL.
I was in all these differentthings.
At one time People were like,bro, how you doing that?
I'm like I just let them know Iain't taking no, I'm not taking
no.
(33:59):
I got to go home and I remembersome dudes over in Lorain got
caught bringing their cellphones and stuff, so they fired
all of them, took them all tothe hole under investigation and
they just called me like hey,I'm in finals, I'm trying to
write my finals and stuff.
And they're like hey, wechanged your job.
You got to go over there andclean the visit room over there.
(34:20):
I'm like no, they're like whatyou mean?
No, I'm like no, like I'm astudent.
That I'm like no, Like I'm astudent, that's my job.
They're like all right, well,you know, if you don't, you can
go to the hole.
I was like well, you want topack my stuff or you want me to
pack my stuff, because if I'mnot about to get my schooling
done and I'm going to go to thehole, like either way, I'm not
(34:40):
getting my way.
So we go ahead and make thisthe hard way.
And they're like man, I need totalk to the case manager.
He ain't coming in untiltomorrow.
Bro, I went and cleaned the room, I did my homework while I was
over there and the first thingin the morning I was out there
to see the case manager.
I was like yo, I need to letyou know that I quit.
He was like oh, you can't quit.
(35:00):
I was like no, you don'tunderstand, I'm not quitting.
I already quit like I'm astudent.
Hey, dude, look at me.
Like what the fuck man Like?
So I mean, we gonna get thisbed, move out the way, because I
already told them they can packmy stuff.
I'm good, I'm ready.
They like ah, man, well, youtake that away.
They can't threaten you withgoing to the hole, like I'm
already in prison.
(35:21):
I'm trying to work on myself.
You're in my way of becoming abetter person and think about
that for a second.
Kel (35:28):
I don't mean to interrupt, but just think about that for a
second.
How do you go to jail in jail?
That was always a philosophythat you got to be a really
ignorant person.
To go to jail in jail, my bad,go ahead.
Remie (35:39):
No, no, you're good.
You got to be a really ignorantperson to threaten somebody to
go to jail in jail, but for youto fall for it at the same time
is equally just asinine, becauseI'm like, so you're going to
move me from one part of theprison to another part of the
(36:02):
prison, but I'm still going tobe in prison, right, cool, let's
do it Right.
I mean, I don't know, butanyway, that was just my little
go ahead and vent thing.
But to bring this all aroundthough, we did the time, we made
the best of the time.
I'm proud of you for using yourtime better this time around,
man, because you know,previously it was bit mode and
(36:24):
this time it seemed to be justfrom day one, preparing, you
know, and focusing on what wasmore important, which was
working on yourself mentalhealth, family, what's that?
Yeah.
Kel (36:38):
What was different for me this time is the other
incarceration, because I didn'twant to accept that I was in
prison.
I didn't want to accept that Iwas receiving discipline or on
time out or punishment.
So I made the incarceration fun.
You know I was doing this,doing that, getting into this,
getting into that.
You know, this time around Isat down and took it all in,
(37:03):
like, oh, this is a punishment,this is real.
I did something for me to behere and I made this time hell
on purpose.
I allowed the negativity.
I I allowed myself to feel thenegativity this time right,
because when I walk out of here,I hate this place so much that
(37:27):
that's the leading factor in mydecisions, that I hate and have
a disgust for this place so muchthat every decision I make is
designed to prevent me frombeing in a position to be in a
place that I hate, which issomething I didn't do in the
(37:48):
past.
And another thing that I wantedto add we can't forget about the
family element, that familysupport right, and that is the
most critical thing.
A lot of us don't have familysupport.
My mother supported me.
My aunt and uncle supported me.
My wife she supported me.
How'd that go?
(38:08):
Uncle supporting me, my wife,she's supporting me, so how'd
that go?
But that family support, youknow, I I gotta give the thanks
you know to them.
If you have it, cherish it andrecognize that us being away
from our families impacts theirability to grow, because they
have essentially put their liveson hold because of our
(38:30):
statistics right, so they'rewaiting for us to come home with
level heads and sane heads sothat we can become a part of
that family unit again andeverything get back on track.
So that's the other thing tokeep in mind.
Like, while you're here,recognize that your family,
especially if they're supportingyou.
Let that be the guiding factorto your decision-making of how
(38:54):
can I help benefit my familywhen I come home and hurt them
again.
I just wanted to put that inthere too, but yeah.
Remie (39:02):
We often forget that we're missing from our families
while we're in prison.
We often just like we on thephone and we thinking like we
still in the mix and that's nice, you know.
It's nice that they allow us tothink that for real.
But, to be honest, you need tounderstand that you went from a
leader of your household toanother dependent.
(39:22):
You don't run shit, so get thatin your head and that's a hard
pill to swallow for real.
But then also, um, for yourfamily, man, it's nice and they
need to understand that you arean alpha and you are away from
the pack.
They gotta open up room for youto come back in so things flow
(39:43):
smoothly.
So there's not this powerdynamic because they've been
holding it down without you.
They have become the alpha inthe house and now it's this like
okay, where can I pick up?
Let's work together, because alot of dudes I seen it, man they
come back and they like it's myshit?
Like nah, bruh, it's really not.
(40:04):
But okay, I'm gonna let youthink that until problems happen
, which they inevitably will,you know right.
But yeah, um, you know you, youat the end now you, you.
Well, I hate using that termyou're not at the end.
You, you coming up on releasebecause I tell people this ain't
the end.
This, this is the beginning.
(40:24):
This is the beginning theeverything you do in there that
we just talked about preparing.
That's the prequel, like weready for game day now, and
congratulations on that.
Kel (40:36):
I appreciate that, bro.
Remie (40:38):
Congratulations on where you've grown to in preparation
for it.
Kel (40:44):
Man, forget about me.
Congratulations to you.
I don't want to let it gounnoticed.
Right, I've been watching youall this time.
I've watched you succeed as afamily man.
I've watched you succeed as abusinessman.
I've watched you succeed asjust an individual, from that
dude that I met in 2008, rightto here.
(41:05):
It is 2025, right, you knowwe've kept in contact all this
time, but I'm inspired by you,believe it or not, right?
But that just goes back to 2008, when I said this young man has
a good head on his shoulder.
Right, when you see somebodythat has a good head on their
shoulder, you got to empowerthat individual.
(41:26):
You got to empower it, becauseall it takes is to get up.
I've been watching you at thewife and kids and houses and
businesses.
You're doing your thing.
You're staying out of here.
That's commendable.
I got to give you your flowers,too, though.
Keep up the good work, man.
(41:47):
I'm proud of you.
Thanks, man, thanks.
Remie (41:49):
Keep up the good work, man.
I'm proud of you.
Thanks, man.
Thanks, that means a lot, and Ijust had a conversation with
somebody about this man thatrecognizing that it's people in
there that are using me as anexample and inspiration is, in
itself, an inspiration for me tokeep doing good, because I know
(42:11):
that not only do I have a lotto lose out here, but I could
potentially fuck up the rolethat I play in all these other
people's lives.
So, yeah, thanks, man.
Thanks for that recognition.
Kel (42:26):
For sure you do.
Keep it up, man.
Remie (42:30):
I'll see you soon.
Yeah, I will, man, and I'll behere for you, bro.
Like you know, I'm alwaystrying to give some game for
free, man, all the hard earnedlessons that I learned, cause
I'm not telling you that it wasa straight line up, it
definitely was not, but it'll bea chance to give some of that
(42:51):
game that you gave me.
Give it back, you know For sure, only to the wide, so you got
any closing thoughts.
Man, you got any closingthoughts you want to end it off
with?
Kel (43:02):
Closing thoughts.
Man, first thing about prisonis don't come to prison.
If whatever element out therethat would even lead you to here
, change it, get rid of it, slowyour life down, but if you do
have to come, make the best outof it.
Make your time count.
I'm happy.
It's an unfortunate situationbut I know that I'm light years
(43:26):
ahead and I feel that I'm readyto be successful, to take care
of my family, and I'm glad thatI have influential people like
yourself in my life, keeping mycircle small.
And I'm just waiting for thatdoor to open up so I can go
ahead and do what's planned.
(43:47):
Don't come to me, great man.
Remie (43:54):
As always, man, because I love to talk and give my two
cents.
I'm going to give my little twocents to people out there man
that's going through it, orpeople that's supporting people
going through it and that'sbefore you can make any type of
great change or before you canmake change in somebody else,
you first got to change thethings that define them.
(44:16):
So when you say that you focuson success, you can't be
successful until you definesuccess.
Remember when we was in thestreets, we wanted to be
successful, and successful wasgetting a bottle, getting the
girls, getting the weed, gettingthe move and how we was moving.
That was successful to us.
(44:37):
So you couldn't tell us we werenot successful and that we
needed to straighten up.
So you know, work on thefoundations.
That's all I'm going to say.
Kel (44:48):
I agree with you 100%.
Remie (44:52):
All right, man, all right , and with that we're going to
wrap this one up.
DJ (45:08):
The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a part of
the Buzzsprout PodcastCommunity Network.
Audio engineering is done byour very own Remy Jones.
You can reach out to us withany feedback, questions,
comments or share the love byemailing stories at
lockdown2legacycom.
Stories at lockdown2 tolegacycom.
(45:29):
You can reach out there, too,for a free sticker, and you can
find us on Instagram and Twitterwith the handle at lockdown to
legacy and on Facebook at thelockdown to legacy podcast.
Please don't forget to rate,review and subscribe.
Thanks for listening.
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