March 15, 2024 • 59 mins
Come join Remie and DJ as they unravel the threads of authority abuse within the American justice system. Triggered by unsettling events involving Ohio law enforcement, they lay bare the distressing patterns of misconduct. From lawyers taking advantage of clients to corruption in the police ranks, these stories call for a dire need for transparency and accountability. Join them as they share their insights, personal experiences, and a deep dive into the murky waters of power dynamics in the justice system.
***Please be advised that some subject matter discussed in this episode may be triggering to some individuals. There is subject matter of sexual trauma as well as of traumatic dealings with law enforcement. ***
Articles used for this episode include:
-https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/local/2024/02/06/columbus-police-officer-charged-in-federal-drug-crime-to-he-be-held/72495326007/#
-https://apnews.com/article/business-laws-police-reform-police-government-and-politics-d1301b789461adc582ac659c3f36c03c
-https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2019/04/24/usa-today-revealing-misconduct-records-police-cops/3223984002/#:~:text=Less%20than%2010%25%20of%20officers,forces%20get%20investigated%20for%20misconduct
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to Lockdown the Legacy stories from the
inside out.
I'm your host, remy Jones.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I'm co-host Debbie Jones.
We are a husband and wife teamhere to bring you the real life
stories, experiences andquestions around the American
criminal justice system.
We do advise discretion withthis podcast.
I think we should put that outthere first and foremost.
Yes, we are going to talk aboutexperiences that happen inside
the prison system, outside ofprison systems.
(00:46):
We will use language that mightbe offensive, but we intend to
keep it real.
And if that's not for you, wetotally understand, but please
do what's best for yourlistening ears.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh, we're about to keep it real, son.
Our goal of this podcast is toshare the inside realities of
the American prison and criminaljustice system, from precharges
all the way to post-release,from the voices of those who've
experienced it firsthand,including me.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
That's right, we're going to get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode
of Lockdown on Legacy.
Of course I'm your host, remyJones, and I have a special
treat for you guys this week.
I know we've been doing a lotof the worn and the wise
episodes and I hope you guys arestill loving those, because
those guys love to be a part ofthis show and I love having them
(01:51):
be a part of it.
But we're kind of going back tothe original layout for this
week and I got the beautiful,the wonderful, the smart and the
talented DJ.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Oh, how I have missed that.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I tell you that all the time.
It's not just for the show.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
No, it's not.
You're lovely and wonderful allthe way around.
So I'm really, I'm excited.
I'm excited to be back.
I know it's been intermittentand I appreciate being able to
step away.
This is a season where I needto step away, and so you have
not blinked at that and you'relike, don't worry about it, I
(02:32):
got it.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I breathe in silence.
It's all on the inner side.
It's killing me.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
That's not true.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
No, I mean, I can make it sound good, right.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Anyway, like I said, glad to have you back, love.
It's been far too long.
Let's do a little catch upthough.
I mean the people want to know.
The people want to know.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I don't actually remember when our last episode
together was, so I guess it'sbeen a minute.
Yeah.
I don't even know what'shappened because I don't know
when it was.
I know we talked about our dietonce, so it must have been
after January.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
I'll rub that.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
But I don't really know what happened in February.
What would you like to catch upon?
Well, first starters.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I've tried having a little social life, you know.
So I've done some interestingstuff in the last month or so.
I went to the Drake and J Coleconcert.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I'm my favorite cousin and mentor, ronnie, so
shout out Big Ron.
And then, as a special treat,my brother, of course, the day
before texted me and said thathe was driving up from Virginia
because he was also going to theconcert.
Little bit of amiscommunication, which neither
of us knew that the concert wasgoing to be multiple days long.
(03:59):
So he was actually going to theconcert the day after me, but I
thought we were supposed to bemeeting each other there.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
So I'm like at the front gate, like bro, where are
you at what's?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
the section you in.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
He's like oh we're still driving up there.
I'm like what?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
No, I think that's funny.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, yeah, but good times.
We're having some intermittentgood weather.
You know how Ohio does it, soit was summer last week and it
was spring today and it'll bewinter tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It's been nice, though, like you know, daylight
savings time is what it is, butI do appreciate not coming home
in the dark.
So, at least for me, I'vereally enjoyed that benefit of
walking out of work and it beinglight outside, and it's still
being light for a little bitwhen I get home.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
It's nice to watch the kids ride their bikes and do
the fun stuff.
Those are the simple, easygoingthings that I enjoy.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, and I mean I kind of appreciate the little
hitter and miss good weatherdays too.
I mean I've gotten to bring themotorcycle out.
Kids love going for a ride.
It's interesting they went fromlike, oh, I don't like loud
noises and the bike scares me,to like oh my gosh, can we go on
a bike ride?
It was great.
So we did that.
(05:23):
And then today of course it wasin the 70s and then it rained
and then it got to like tornadoconditions in some places.
But we got to do like a quicklap or two around the circle
with each of our little kids andright as I was coming back the
(05:45):
rain drop started falling.
So it was like that's it.
And then by the time I put thebike away and went out to get in
the car, it was like a full ondownpour because I was just
trying to go, like, pick up somegroceries.
But anyway, I'm in life's great,I like it.
I've been working a lot.
I mean you guys heard me talkabout that with Warren, got some
(06:06):
stuff trying to get off theplate, clean up.
But I don't know if I reallyfeel like I'm working a lot.
I mean, don't get me wrong,when I first come home I'm like
yeah, I'm done, I'm about toquit my job, I'm so tired, I'm
done.
But as long as I get thoselittle 20 minutes to kind of
(06:31):
decompress and switch modeseverything's good when I don't
get those little 20 minutes,though I'd be having to
apologize to Debbie.
I'm sorry, babe, I'm just tiredand mad, but you know.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I think that what's really great about our
relationship is we step up forthe other one when we need to.
I know I think that's goodpartnership.
I've had to step away a lotlately and you have been 100% in
(07:16):
and you're not complaining orFrustrated or anything like that
.
You're just like yep, noproblem, I'll do the dishes,
I'll handle the laundry, I'llstep in.
And Right now you're in aseason where you're working more
and so I'm like, don't worryabout it, I'm gonna get
crock-pot meals and I'm gonna,you know, do these things and
(07:37):
I'm gonna clean on the weekend,and so I don't know.
I am appreciative of the.
Your reciprocity of Knowing thatsometimes it's not 50-50.
I don't think marriage is 50-50, so at least not all the time.
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
I mean, but like I said, I just bad math are behind
your back, I never.
But so Besides you know, ofcourse work, and besides kids,
Mm-hmm.
There's school, yep, and schoolIs Crescing the hill.
We can see the other side.
(08:17):
You can see it.
You can see it, no, no no no,no, no no you're not ready for
this.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Being ready and being able to see it, I think, are
different things.
So when you're in the trenches,you can't really see how close
you are to the end.
You know what I mean?
It all looks dark right now, soyou can't really see like I
think about it, like um, whenyou're scooping the tunnel with
a spoon and you don't reallyknow how close you are to the
other side.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Is that like a what?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
What do you mean?
What is that?
Scooping the tunnel with aspoon like you're trying to dig
out a tunnel, but you're doingit with a spoon.
You don't have a whole shovel,so it's like really tiny.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I got you like there's some Shawshake.
You thought it was like aprison break or something.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
No, I really meant like you're trying to dig
through and you can't.
It's all dark right now, so youcan't really see how close you
are to.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Well, I could see the life for it.
I'll be your spotter.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
No, I'm in it.
I don't.
I don't see the light.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I was driving down the highway the other day and I
saw a billboard for theShawshake Redemption Like tour
of the old MansfieldPenitentiary.
Yeah, I want to go see it.
I want to go see it for, uh,podcast purposes.
It's all research and, and youknow, it's not fun.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
It's not fun.
I mean it's it's not fun, it'sme going to see a prison.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Like been there, done that.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Seen it, lived it Um.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I want to see it because, um, for those of you
who don't know, they have builta new Mansfield prison and they
kind of shut down the oldMansfield Reformatory.
Um, and it was shut down for along time until somebody had the
bright idea to use it for amovie location and so they
(10:07):
filmed the famous movie, um,with uh, what's the guy who
plays?
God and everything morganfreeman.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I don't know any actors, look at me.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Everybody knows god.
So, uh, morgan freeman was inthe movie Shawshake Redemption,
and they filmed it at the oldMansfield Reformatory.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Which kind of in ohio .
We are in ohio, yes, in ohio.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
And um, and it kind of like revitalized it as like a
tourist location.
And so now there's likebillboards everywhere and they
pay you to go to prison or youpay them to go to prison.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, they do the scary thing at the halloween
time to.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Anyway, I worry about that.
I'll say your least fave,you've never been to it.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I would never go either.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
All right, um as far as books go.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, what you read in.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I haven't actually read a book In a while.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It doesn't mean physically, like what are you
listening to reading my audible?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
though, oh my goodness, listen, I'm tearing it
up.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I'm putting out a lotof miles and instead of just
listening to music, I'm doingthe audible thing.
I'm listening to everything,man, like I've listened to the
the art of war again.
Um, I've listened to a wholelot of fiction like sci-fi, uh,
(11:28):
fantasy fiction and man, thanksfor audible plus, who were not
sponsored by, but theydefinitely give you like some
free here and here, mm-hmm.
And man, I'm tearing up wholeseries of books.
Man, there's one series I'mlike.
I'm like book 10.
Wow.
(11:48):
But I ran out of free credit, sonow I gotta wait Now.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I gotta wait a month or another free credit.
The credits are like each bookslike $15-16 and I'm like I'll
be damned when we share anaccount, so we share our credit.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I don't share anything.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I know you've been taking them all lately.
You tell me I could.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
If you want to retract that statement.
I needed him writing.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I don't have time to listen to anything right now, so
Needed in writing.
Huh.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I sure do.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Um, for me, I am oh what?
I'm not reading anything that'snot First google, like it's not
for a different purpose, likeI'm not reading anything for fun
, um, right now, because what isfun really, at the end of it?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
But if you want a nerd out on here, feel free.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
I don't, I can't, um, I can't pull that thread.
I don't know, it's not thereyet for me, so, um, I can't
report back Until I figured out.
So I will eventually, but, um,but what I'm watching is trash
tv.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Same, thing, I call it trash tv.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
My reward for writing is that I get to watch an
episode of Love is Blind, whichis a terrible reality show about
nothing but drama.
Um, it's a dating show on tvwhere you don't see each other.
You just talk in thesesoundproof pods and fall in love
(13:29):
and then propose sight unseen.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
So this is like my space on tv.
I Don't give it.
Come on, man At.
Like you, I ain't never fell inlove with somebody on my space.
You know them old chat roomsand stuff back in the day.
Everybody know what I'm talkingabout.
Trust me, if y'all over 25,y'all know what I'm talking
(13:52):
about.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
So love is blind.
They just had the reunionepisode, so I just I watched it.
Now I'm out of tv to watch Um.
So I have to think of adifferent thing to reward myself
with, because I can go heavyinto these topics and you know,
research, all these things, andI got to balance that with some
(14:13):
just Absolutely trash justnonsense, some completely random
.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
You know, when it comes to like nonsense tv, I
want to watch um catfish, like Iused to watch that in that
house and that guy's there.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
No, that's oh, that's how to catch a pretty.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, that's how I catch a pretty I'm sort of
catfish is all about, like youknow, meeting people online and
they're not how they say theyare, um, they have, like some
famous people there, or two umCatfish I used to watch, and I
used to watch what's the one?
Um Like cheaters or something.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Oh, I don't know.
Oh man, that was awesome.
I really liked that reallymessed people's lives up.
I really liked those completelystaged and fake shows like
Steve Wilkos and um Um, notJerry Springer, but like more
republics.
Judge Judy, those types of yeah, just terrible, trash.
Reality tv um is usually mybinge when I'm not watching like
(15:12):
a true crime or a documentary,yeah, I'll never forget, or the
golden girl.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
You know what I was saying?
No names man.
I'll never forget being like inprison watching judge joe brown
and my ex-girlfriend was onthere, one of my ex-girlfriends
from like middle school or highschool or something, I don't
know.
I think it was high school,like ninth grade, and she was
crazy she was.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
You've never told me this.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Oh, you ought to learn now, okay.
So, um, this uh unnamed womanwas 24 karat, crazy.
Um, the whole way that I mether was because it was my first
day of school, um, at a newschool, and I was lost and I was
late to class.
(15:57):
And I come up the stairs andthere's this dude.
I got her like by the collar upagainst this locker and so
naturally I run up and you know,just get the beating up dude.
I ain't even asked no questions, I just get the whooping on me.
And then I walked through class.
Well, after school there's thisdude outside waiting for me and
(16:19):
it's not the dude I beat up,it's her brother.
And he's like yo, you wasmessing with my sister.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
And I don't even know nobodyhere.
You know you got the wrongperson.
So I see this girl over there.
She like, yeah, that's him.
So, uh, I'm like dude.
(16:40):
So I tell him what happened andhe sighed with me and then we
together going beat up dudeagain Because, like the fuck you
was trying to do.
Well, so now me and dude hangout for a little bit, um, and I
mean over the course of time,and eventually I end up like
dating this sister they're crazyone.
And it was only for like amonth because she was like legit
(17:04):
, like needed certification, andput away, um, but, um, even
though that ended, and it wasreally like nothing to talk
about, um, one day I'm watchingjudge joe brown and I see her on
there and she's with his dudeand, uh, he's suing her because
(17:25):
she didn't keyed his car andbusted windows and stuff.
And I'm like man, I'm glad Iducked that one right.
And uh, she's like, oh, man,but the reason she did is
because he went off to collegeand she wasn't doing nothing
with her life, and he was likeyo, um, I want to see other
people.
And so she uh Saw his car andvandalized it.
(17:48):
The funny part, though, was thatshe was in court, like wagging
her head and everything, like,yeah, I did it and I should have
flattened this tires too.
I'm like, oh my god, what areyou saying?
So judge joe brown said thefunniest thing I've ever heard a
judge say oh, I don't know,whatever.
But he was like, oh, Iunderstand now.
(18:09):
You mad because he upgraded.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
You a hood rat?
Oh no.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
She got so bad and she was like you a hood rat.
I was like what the fuck howyou call the judge a hood rat
Like it was hilarious man.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I don't think I've ever seen anybody I Actually
know in real life on Any ofthose shows oh man, I got a few.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I can tell you I ain't gonna do that.
We got to get to an episode.
That's right, um, but anyway,man trash tv.
Kids work school.
That's the life baby podcasting.
Shout out to my dude, jacob.
I don't know if he listening.
I ain't gonna say no last names, but jacob just got out.
Man, that was my dude, I'mhappy for him.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Congratulations.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Welcome home.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Um, it's a couple guys.
I know that's uh in the process.
You know they they still umFighting for their chance.
So we gonna, we gonna pray forthem and keep them in our minds
and thoughts and, uh, good luckanyway.
Um, on to today's episode.
This one was thought up by thebeautiful, the lovely and the
(19:23):
talented and the extraordinarilysmart dj.
Um, well, you're just uh, shedoes a lot of reading.
Don't let her fool y'all thatshe ain't reading in her spare
time.
In the Infantismally smallamount of spare time she got.
She always like, babe, I readthis article and sends it to me
(19:44):
and I'm like when you have timeto read an article.
I'm like I'm gonna read it toyou, but anyway, um, it's about
Um abuse of authority.
Mm-hmm and law enforcement.
Yeah, and so we have about 10articles here and we're gonna
cherry pick some information.
We'll include the ones, um, inthe show notes that we actually
read from I'm die.
(20:04):
I doubt we'll have time tocover them all.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Mm-hmm and so here's where we will pause and then get
into our content.
I mean, uh, moment of silenceand we're back so this kind of
came to me as an episode topicwhen, um, well, first, I saw
(20:31):
this article come out infebruary in columbus, ohio, and
I I don't know I saw it happenand I was like we gotta, we
gotta do something about it.
And so the columbus dispatch isthe one who put this article
out and, um, it's about thispolice officer who is charged
(20:54):
with federal drug crimes andlaundering, and I'm gonna talk a
little bit about the articlehere.
But, um, when I read the title,I was just like I wonder how
frequently this happens.
I wonder how Often that we heara lot about law enforcement.
We've, um, the death of georgefloy happened in 2020 and and
(21:16):
the murder I should say the themurder of george floyd by
Minneapolis police happened in2020 and it was one case of over
a hundred Of instances ofpolice brutality towards black
individuals in 2020 by may, um,so that's an extraordinary
figure.
So there's all kinds of theseabuses of power that stick out
(21:40):
to me, whether that's brutality,whether that is, uh, drug
crimes that are perpetuatedthrough Routine stops and doing
your quote-unquote job as apolice officer, but also in the
corrections field, um, and itjust there's this through line
of these Um types of abuse ofauthority and these abuses of
(22:02):
power within the legal system,and we don't have time to talk
about each one today.
Maybe there will be a part twoof this episode, but I thought
about it from the perspectivesof lawyers who exploit clients,
um within the judicial system,people who don't have money so
then have to pay in other means,or in favors or in um you know
(22:24):
Crime.
And then I think about we'vetalked about I mentioned
corrections officers, but also,um, there's just these instances
of Power dynamics within theserelationships that can get taken
advantage of really easily.
And so today I wanted to talk alittle bit about law
enforcement and police officers,but then I wanted to pivot and
(22:45):
talk about corrections officersand the experiences of
incarcerated individuals, um,who have these power
differentials and power dynamicsin play.
Anything there, before I jumpinto the article itself.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Uh, no, but I mean I guess yes, uh, this is not
uncommon.
Um, I mean, like you just said,what, how many?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
you say over a hundred or 200 of police
brutality specifically, butwe're going to talk about um An
article that that talks abouthow many instances of misconduct
happen.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
All, right now.
She's just talking about, um,police right now, um, but you
know this podcast is centeredaround incarceration, um, mostly
.
And when you think police, youdon't really, off the cuff,
think of corrections officers or, uh, the judicial system as a
(23:42):
whole.
And Actually with policethere's a lot more transparency
Than it is with corrections,because with the police you can
simply say, hey, uh, we want tosee the body cam footage and you
can file for a freedom ofinformation act or something
release and you can have thatbody cam footage fairly quickly,
(24:05):
whereas with uh correctionsofficers like if there was an
instance and there have beenwhere let's say, um, an inmate
was assaulted by a group ofcorrections officers and it was
on video, like um, like, let'ssay it was on one of the
institutional uh cameras, thesecurity cameras, and you were,
(24:28):
you were to say, hey, we want tosee those videos they could
plainly say no, because theywould say it's a security threat
to release the footage, becauseit would show the camera angles
and all this other nonsense,you know when.
Basically, it's just themcovering their own ass and we're
they're like oh, we'll lookinto it, don't worry about it.
(24:51):
Right you know, and so you knowthis is we're going to just get
hit.
Go ahead to the uh, the policeexample that you gave.
But I just wanted to keep thatin mind, like it's not the
entirety of it, it's not justyou know, traffic stops and
stuff like that, um, so think alittle more broadly.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, and so this specific article comes from the
columbus dispatch.
Uh, it was really a prud.
And what am I saying?
Produced, released, published,published.
I was gonna get there.
Uh, um, this article waspublished in in february of 2024
and it talks about officer julem Mefford, who was arrested on
(25:40):
federal drug trafficking chargesand money laundering, and so,
basically, the nuts and bolts ofthe story is that this police
officer, who had been employedwith columbus division of police
since 2011, was specificallycharged with possession of five
kilograms or more of cocaine andpossession with intent to
(26:02):
distribute.
At the time, um, he also had twoadditional counts of cocaine
possession and uh intent todistribute, which was 500 grams
or more, and money laundering,and that was enough for me to
like be all in to read the restof this Uh, which led me to this
section, where this articlebasically details it's not just
(26:25):
an officer who is Um buying andselling drugs.
It's an officer who, in searches, was illegally searching Homes
that he they had been sent to,he had been sent to on drug
crimes, and so he shows upwithout a search warrant or he
(26:46):
knows the person's not there,like in the specific example
they talk about.
Uh, in the article.
They're talking about adetached garage where they
gained access to the garage,went in and searched it and
removed, um, some of thekilograms of cocaine and then
(27:06):
left the others there to befound when they came back with
an actual search warrant.
Um, so that's a big one, right?
Because it's not just thiscomponent of Okay, you are
having drugs and selling them,but also he is intentionally
gaining access to propertiesthat he suspects have drugs and
(27:29):
taking some of it so the restcan be found, but then is taking
possession of some of it tothen resell.
So completely abusing this roleas an officer, gaining illegal
access to properties and thentaking drugs to then profit off
of outside.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Like there's so many layers to that in and of itself,
Right, and it says that one ofthe apartment complex employees
gave him access to the garage,helped him gain access to it, so
I'm sure he didn't do that justbecause he was trying to be,
you know, helpful.
I'm sure there was some type ofintimidation factor or
(28:10):
something there, or flexing thatwhole position of authority as
a police officer.
So I mean there's that's kindof disturbing on all kinds of
levels.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And when it comes to like the drugs themselves, it's
like just leave just enough toget the charges we want and the
rest is, like you know, pureprofit, I guess.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yes, and exactly what you're saying, with this
intimidation and incidents priorto this.
That happened in 2020.
Again, this officer wasinvestigating a drug trafficking
operation with houses on I mean, I don't want to give all the
way the geographical locationsin Columbus for protection of
(28:52):
other people but this indictmentbasically says that Mefford,
this officer that we're talkingabout approached a suspect in
their investigation and at a gasstation and basically the
person said to Mefford thatthere was cocaine in the house
over on one of the drives alongthe way, and so Mefford went and
(29:17):
took a bag of multiplekilograms of cocaine from one of
the individuals that he wastalking to to figure out where
the drugs are, but then went tothe house and took some of the
other drugs, but again left someto then be found.
And so there's I don't knowthese stories keep going on Like
(29:37):
previous to that, one monthbefore this replaced drugs that
were found with fake cocaine sothat he could take the real
cocaine.
So there's just all of theseinstances, but in each of them
there are these individualsinvolved who I'm sure, are
scared right, they havepossession of drugs or know
(29:57):
about drugs, and that'sintimidating.
But you also have this policeofficer who is this quote
unquote authority figure, and soyou feel the need to comply and
this intimidation component.
And this is where the abuse ofpower comes in, from two levels.
There's an abuse of power ofthese individuals and their
(30:20):
rights right Gaining access tohomes without search warrants,
those kinds of things, but alsoan abuse of power believing that
you are more elite than you areas an, the forcer of the law,
and you talk about that a lot.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, it really bothers me when you see people
exercise their rights and otherpeople like give them shit for
it.
Because my guilty pleasure is Iwatch a lot of videos online and
I'm in this like group onFacebook called police the
(30:56):
police, and it's where peoplerecord their like, traffic stops
and stuff and they upload it.
And it's always like someoverly brazen cop who comes and
just starts saying like whatthey're gonna do, and people are
like no, and then they're likeyes, I am.
And these people are like wellversed, like they do their
(31:17):
research, and they're like no,according to this law and this
subsection and this, and thatyou need X, y and Z, so if you
can give me that, that'd begreat.
And then the officers are likeoh, you're one of them, you know
right.
And then it's like theyimmediately get aggressive
because they're gettingresistance and and even other
(31:38):
people, like other privatecitizens, are like oh man,
they're crazy, you know, justlike, if you don't got nothing
to hide, just do it.
Yeah, if you're not guilty,what's the problem?
And it's like that's the reasonwhy there is this abuse of
power, because you're used topeople just laying down and
forfeit their rights and youknow, I'm not one of those like
people that's going to go outthere and like and you got to
(31:59):
fight the power.
But you know, at the same timeit's like, um, when the cop
comes up to you and you're notwell versed in your rights and
you don't want to exercise them,and a cop comes up and he's
like hey, um, you're an employeeat this apartment complex, I
need you to let me in, you know.
(32:20):
And you're like well, no, Ican't.
And he's like all right, well,I know that there's a drug
trafficking ring going on and ifyou're standing in my way, I'm
going to charge you as acomplicit.
And you're like whoa, you know,yeah, man, I can lock you up
and give you a reef.
Oh, and that's 10 yearsmandatory.
You like whoa, whoa.
All right, man, let's just goover there.
You know, yes, Like that's notunheard of, that happens a lot
(32:41):
Like.
Or, you know, trying to guiltyou into it, Like, don't you
want to?
be a good Samaritan, these drugsare on the streets and if
you're protecting them andyou're like whoa, whoa, whoa,
nobody's protecting anybody,right, but I mean, I don't know,
I don't know, I don't know, Idon't know, I don't know, I
don't know, I don't know, Idon't know, nobody's protecting
anybody you know, but I meanthat's the tactics.
(33:03):
I mean we talked about this withscare tactics.
It's like you know, you knowsomething, I don't know anything
.
Well, if you don't, then gohelp me find them.
And it's horrible, man, it ishorrible and I understand that.
You know there is a level ofcunning that needs to be
(33:25):
exercised by law enforcement toget results, but at the same
time, there is also a high levelof abuse of, you know, mental
manipulation, of intimidation,you know, and sometimes just
flat out thuggery.
Thuggery.
(33:46):
Thuggery, I'm serious.
I mean because listen all rightso I told you I watched these
videos a lot and I've also had alot of interactions with police
officers from my past life.
So I know, because I alwaysthink in weird ways, immediately
when my interactions with thepolice start, I start analyzing
their body language, theirtactics and everything.
(34:08):
I recognize them so that I knowwhat they're trying to use
against me.
As soon as police start talkingto you, what do they do?
The one that's talking to youis on this side and the other
one walks around the other sideof you and so you're like what
the fuck are you doing overthere?
So as soon as you go to pivot,they pivot.
(34:28):
They want to control the area.
They want you to feelintimidated.
You know, if you invite them inyour house, one of them is going
to sit there and talk to youand one of them is going to
start walking through your house.
That's why I always say, likeyou know, walk out, talk to them
outside, because as soon asthey go in the house, that's an
illegal search.
As soon as you invite them in,oh, they can come up with any
(34:51):
amount of reasons.
So I saw this and it wassuspicious.
So whatever, but anyway, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
And all of these are just examples of there's lack of
oversight.
Right and I think that that'shave we talked on this podcast
before about Columbus's taskforce now for police oversight,
law enforcement oversight.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
So that is part of a new law that passed by voters,
by the people in.
I was at last year, two yearsago.
It's very recent and it's sonow.
People who are advocates andactivists and, you know, judges
and all kinds of folks are onthis.
I don't know if it's called atask force, but it's like this
(35:37):
law enforcement oversightcommittee that investigate these
exact things, these pieces ofmisconduct, and so I'll try to
talk a little bit more aboutthat at the end and pull up some
information.
But really, what I wanted tohighlight with this article is
that this is not unique, likeyou just said, remy, that these
(35:58):
pieces of the puzzle happenfrequently.
We just don't know or hearabout them a lot.
I think it's becoming morecommon with social media.
Everything seems to be recorded.
People are recording theirinteractions more now and body
cam footage is like a must inmost stops, so those things help
(36:18):
.
But when I read this article inparticular about Mefford and
planting drugs, taking drugs,coercing people into giving him
drugs who he had stopped, andyou know, all on duty, it's this
clear abuse of I am anauthority figure and I'm going
to use that position to get whatI want, but I also, in some
(36:40):
case, some regard, feel like Ican get away with it.
Like I feel like as an officerof the law, I can get away with
that a little bit becausethere's an intent again to
distribute and profit off ofthat.
It doesn't talk about whetheror not he was using anything,
but it does very clearly talkabout this intent to distribute,
(37:01):
so I think that that's reallynoteworthy.
Were you going to say somethingthere?
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
No, I was just thinking.
The factor that is probablyoverlooked is that if you're
stealing drugs to sell drugs, itmeans that you're probably
picking and choosing whatcriminals you're going to
prosecute and you're lettingother criminals go because
(37:29):
otherwise you have no pipelinefor your drugs.
That's true, that's true.
But I'm stealing kilos of coke.
We're talking about bricks.
We're talking about a lot ofcocaine, a huge value per kilo.
You're not just like going outon the beat and selling that
(37:49):
rock by rock yourself.
You got to be If you got kilos.
You're probably selling kilosto people that then go and sell
it on the street.
So we're not talking about dimebags and grams of cocaine that
somebody goes and snips in thebathroom.
(38:10):
We're talking about bricks,large quantities.
I mean, listen, I've been outthe game for a while, but kilos
of cocaine were like damn, their30 grand per kilo.
So we're talking about a yearlysalary here in one theft
(38:30):
no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah, to kind of put this in a broader perspective, I
wanted to talk about cases ofpolice misconduct, law
enforcement misconduct and liketalk about what they happen most
often, for what percentages,those kinds of things.
So to do that, I wanted tofirst go back to a comment that
(38:53):
you made about, you know, inaccess versus private systems
and stuff that corrections has.
While police in most states arepublic entities, their
misconduct records are notnecessarily.
And so sure, you could requestbody cam footage.
(39:15):
But it isn't a clear cut answerand if you were actually going
to get it.
So I found this article from theAP and it has this analysis of
policemen, misconduct recordsand laws in all 50 states and
what it basically outlines ineach individual states is who
has completely open access tothose public records and what
(39:37):
states don't.
So, for example, alabama is arestricted state.
Police disciplinary records areavailable to the public, but
agencies can require thatrequesters state the reason for
their request and can deny basedon whatever their reason is.
So that's really interesting, Ithink.
Another one is Ohio is an openaccess state, pretty much, so I
(40:05):
was surprised a little by that.
It says Ohio is mostly publicand it says law enforcement
misconduct records are availableto the public in Ohio you just
have to put in a public recordsrequest and so there are all 50
states on this list.
But several states arerestricted.
New Jersey, new Mexico are bothrestricted states and you can
(40:29):
make requests again similar toAlabama but depending on your
reason for requesting, itdoesn't mean that you get access
to that.
The attorney general isactually the ones who get to
make that decision, which Ithink is really interesting.
So it's not as open and shut asoh, the police are public
(40:51):
entities so we should haveaccess to any of their records.
If you are the individual thathas experience, that, that's
different or you're trying tomake a complaint, but if it's
actually trying to find outabout specific misconduct, that
is much more difficult to find,which is why, when I went to
(41:14):
this USA Today article, I wasreally shocked at how low this
number was.
But then, as this article andthe AP and several other sources
go on to say, yes, we can lookat 85,000 cops who have been
investigated for misconduct andwe can read these records, but
they're really hard to source.
So 85,000 is the number we haveaccess to.
(41:36):
That is not representative ofhow much is going on across all
50 states, correct.
So in this USA Today article,like I said, 85,000 records is
what this article in particularanalyzes and polls in terms of
(41:56):
what it is they can point outfor misconduct.
Amongst the findings, here arethree big points.
Most misconduct involvesroutine infractions, but the
records reveal tens of thousandsof cases of serious misconduct
and abuse.
This includes 22,924investigations of officers using
excessive force, 3,145allegations of rape, child abuse
(42:21):
, molestation and or othersexual misconduct and 2,300
cases of domestic violence byofficers.
The second dot point is thatdishonesty is a really frequent
problem.
So amongst this analysis, whatUSA Today was able to find among
this 85,000, was that roughly2,200 of those instances were
(42:43):
for perjury or tampering withevidence or witnessing or
falsifying reports, which isexactly what we're talking about
with Mefford in Columbus, isreplacing drugs with fake drugs
or tampering with the scene andtaking some home.
Where all of those pieces fallwithin this tampering with
evidence, falsifying reports,etc.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Or even like one officer shows up on the scene
and he's there by himself.
By the time backup comes, he'sgiving them what happened and
even if they witness somethingdifferent, they'll all.
Okay, let's cooperate our storyso we can put it down in our
reports.
That happens all the time.
(43:27):
This was probably around like2018 when I was up in Akron, but
there was a story about a copAkron cop who had like a man I
can't remember.
All I remember is that he hadlike almost 300 complaints filed
(43:54):
against him that year and notone of them resulted in him
being out of commission.
He wasn't on dust duty, hewasn't punished or anything, and
yet somehow it got to the pointwhere he ended up doing
something really bad.
I know there was a video.
Something was happening.
I think he was trying to arrestthis lady's son and she came
(44:15):
out trying to defend her son andhe like beat this lady up and
it's all on video and everything.
And of course he's got thatbrazen attitude of like I am the
law and she's just trying tofigure out, like why the fuck
are you putting a hand on my son?
And of course she was animatedand she was like emotional and
(44:38):
kind of yelling, but I mean theresponse didn't really fit the
situation and it got to thepoint to where, like it's broad
daylight, it's out in public,and I mean, people see this
happening.
So now people are coming overthere and now he's feeling like
he has to defend himself againstthese other people.
(45:00):
So now it's one of those thingswhere you know police like to
say like oh, I feared for mylife, but this is clearly a
situation that he created.
And it just kind of blew mymind that you can have almost
300 complaints against you andstill be out doing your job in
public.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Well, that's what I was just about to say.
This last point, I think,speaks volumes and here's how it
reads.
So I want to read itspecifically from the article
and then we can kind of talkabout it.
But it says less than 10% ofofficers in most police forces
get investigated for misconduct.
Yet some officers areconsistently under investigation
.
Nearly 2,500 have beeninvestigated on 10 or more
(45:42):
charges.
20 faced 100 or moreallegations, yet kept their
badge for years.
And so I read this less than10% in most public or most
police forces get investigatedfor misconduct.
I think you could read that twoways.
One is less than 10% ofofficers are committing
misconduct and thus don't getinvestigated because they're not
(46:04):
committing anything.
Or less than 10% of officers inmost police forces get
investigated for misconductbecause they just don't get
investigated.
It's a lack of oversight, butthere are more than 10%
committing it.
Like I think there are two waysto interpret that and the dot
point is vague, but it goes on.
(46:26):
The article goes on to talkabout exactly that oversight
that varies from state to statein terms of how states have
policies in place to deal withmisconduct of their police
forces.
For example, georgia andFlorida decertified thousands of
police officers for everythingfrom crimes to questions about
(46:47):
their fitness to serve, andother states banned almost none,
like Maryland.
They had an over a decade.
Maryland only decertified fourofficers in 10 years.
And in Minneapolis, of course,where officer Derek Chauvin
(47:08):
murdered George Floyd, sevenofficers have been decertified
since 2009.
So there are really vastspectrums, I guess, of what
oversight looks like and howinvestigation of those things
happen.
And I think Reverend AlSharpton said it really well at
(47:32):
Floyd's Feudal, actually in 2020.
And you know, I think thisquote sticks.
But he says until the law isupheld and people know they will
go to jail, they're going tokeep doing it because they are
protected by wickedness in highplaces.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Yeah, and I also wanted to circle back and say,
like that officer that hadalmost 300 complaints against
him, like you said, it's lessthan 10% that are actually
investigated.
So just because the complaintswere documented don't mean
anybody actually looked into it,right?
Speaker 2 (48:11):
And that's why I was saying, with that dot point,
right, it could be less than 10%get investigated, because less
than 10% need to be investigatedor it could be because there's
lots of allegations and peopleare still keeping their badges,
even with these reports existing, and that's the piece.
(48:31):
I think that's hard to discernbecause every state is different
in terms of, a their oversight,but also B their misconduct.
Transparency there is a lack oftransparency to the public, but
the public and taxpayers arewho fund police forces in most
(48:53):
states.
I can't speak for all states,right, but that's how it works
here.
So there is a level ofobligation to be transparent
with the people you are quotesworn to serve and protect.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
No, I don't even remember what I was going to say
.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Okay, so I think that's all I really wanted to
say.
With law enforcement, I justreally wanted to point out that
this is probably the most commontype of misconduct, type of
abuse of power that we can thinkof in terms of the judicial
(49:43):
system, but that it happens allover the place.
So I wanted to start therebecause I feel like that's a
commonality, like that's athread that people can pick up
pretty easily and be like I seeexamples of this.
I think it's important that wesay I would hope people know
this, but we're not down on lawenforcement or I'm down on the
bad ones.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
I'm going to be straight up.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
No, I agree, but I don't want the perception to be.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, yeah, we're not like anti-cop man.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
And I don't think that all cops are bad, but I
think that bad cops make itreally hard to trust any cops,
at least from the perspective ofindividuals who are stopped by
police more frequently and morebiased than others.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Right, there was a video in one of those police to
police groups where the guy wasdoing a first amendment audit
and that's basically like theyjust go and stand out in public
and wait for the police to comeand talk to them and they record
it.
And so this guy in particular,he was like this real skinny
(50:51):
Hispanic guy and he had on cargoshorts and a wife beater, you
know tank top and he had a GoProstrapped to his chest and he
had one in his hand and he stoodoutside the sheriff's
department and he was just likeover across the street from
where, like the parking lotwhere they park other cars and I
(51:14):
mean it's public, there's a lotof like people walking by and
stuff.
And then all of a sudden yousee this cop come out and this
dude looks like the rock, Likehe's built, you know, and he's
like hey, what are you doing?
You know, let me see some ID.
And the guy's like no, I don'thave to show you ID, I'm not
doing anything.
He's like, Well, what are youdoing out here?
He's like I'm just filming fora story, I'm a journalist.
(51:37):
And so the guy demands like tosee, like confiscate his video
cameras.
He's like no.
And next thing, you know, likefive or six more officers come
out and totally surround thisdude and they got on like
bulletproof vests and tacticalgear and like at least three or
(51:59):
four of them had their hands ontheir gun.
And the dude's like why are youguys here?
And he tells the one dude likeAmen, don't stand behind me.
Like he keeps moving, trying toput his back against the wall.
And the guy that's talking tohim was like hey, man, why are
you acting so funny Like he's?
Like you got to understand thatit's my job to make sure that
(52:20):
this area is safe, becauseyou're acting funny and stuff,
and I'll never forget that.
Just do say that something.
That was like just totallyprofound.
And he was like hey, listen, man, this area was really safe
until six dudes with their handson their gun showed up for one
guy in cargo shorts and a tanktop, and so he was like so
(52:40):
what's your name?
And the guy, like the cops,refused to give them them give
him their names.
And so he was like Well, you'rethe supervisor, right?
Why are you sitting hereletting this guy like not
identify himself?
And the supervisor, like herealizes like he was a sergeant
(53:04):
and he realizes like, oh fuck.
So he's like, hey, give me yourname.
But it's like he starts going onwith his name and his badge
number and stuff.
But it's like the supervisorwas right there, ready to play a
part in that and ready to lethis subordinate totally
(53:25):
disregard the policy and the law, and they were totally willing
to intimidate this guy intodoing something that he did not
have to do and then eventuallythey all just ended up walking
back inside with like nothing.
This guy totally like kickedtheir ass as far as you know,
you know upholding his rights.
(53:46):
But I mean, it just goes toshow, like those situations
where if you're not willing toput yourself in that position
and you're willing to just likego along and do whatever just
because you want the situationto go away, you can find
yourself in any type of badsituation.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Once again, sorry if you guys hear the rumble in the
background while we're recording.
I told you like the weatherkind of got a little iffy and so
it's kind of really bad windoutside and thundering.
So sorry about that, but we aresafe and we have been checking
on our family.
(54:29):
So if you heard the phonesvibrating and stuff while we're
recording, sorry about that too,but you know families all
checking in.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Yeah, and so I think for our next episode we should
pivot and really dive into alesser known kind of abusive
power, which is that ofcorrections officers.
And again, I mean I think youmade a really good point of this
at the beginning that thisoperates on a completely
(54:59):
different type of system,whereas law enforcement agencies
are public entities and sothere's a little more leniency,
even though correctionsfacilities are largely funded by
states, at least here in Ohioand you're more public than
private prisons in the UnitedStates.
(55:20):
Public does not meantransparent, and I think that
we're going to see a lot of thatwhen we come back next week to
talk about what it means toabuse power as a corrections
officer and what that powerdifferential as an incarcerated
individual looks like and howthat's a little bit different
(55:40):
than being able to exercise yourright as a citizen like who's
free in the world and can dothings like stand out in front
of the police station and feelsafe enough to do that.
Incarcerated folks don'tnecessarily have that same
opportunity.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
Right, Especially like you know out here.
I mean, you have thatinteraction and, assuming you
make it through it on skates,you go home and you may or may
not ever see that officer again,Whereas incarcerated it's like
that person can repeatedly, dayin and day out, make your life
(56:18):
miserable.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
Yeah, you know and it's not to say that all
interactions are safe withpolice at home.
We know the disproportionalitythat exists and how many
interactions just feel unsafe,even in being a free citizen of
the world, but just thinkingabout how that's compounded by
(56:39):
being incarcerated is next level.
So we want to make sure wespend some dedicated time there
to talk about that, and that'swhy we're going to end our time
together here this week and thenpick up with a part two where
we go in deep, and that's it.
Speaker 1 (56:56):
That's it.
Hope you guys followed all ofthat and I hope that you either
learn something new or at leastenjoy the conversation.
Thanks for being a part of this.
I appreciate you guys tuning inand, as always, feel free to
hit us up on social media onFacebook, the Lockdown Legacy
podcast, anywhere else IG,linkedin, twitter, x, whatever
(57:25):
and our website Lockdown Legacy.
So please also email if you'reone of those old fashioned
people.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
Email, old fashioned now.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
It very much is oh, okay, at stories,
storieslockdownluxycom.
So anyway, thank you all again,and thank you, dj, for being a
part of this as well.
Ooh, big rumbles.
All right, we're out, peace,bye.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a
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Lockdown to Legacy is recordedat co-hatch in their lovely
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Thanks for your scholarship.
Audio engineering is done byour very own Remy Jones.
You can reach us with anyfeedback, questions, comments or
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(58:20):
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Legacy and on Facebook at theLockdown to Legacy podcast.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to Lockdown the Legacy stories from the
inside out.
I'm your host, remy Jones.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I'm co-host Debbie Jones.
We are a husband and wife teamhere to bring you the real life
stories, experiences andquestions around the American
criminal justice system.
We do advise discretion withthis podcast.
I think we should put that outthere first and foremost.
Yes, we are going to talk aboutexperiences that happen inside
the prison system, outside ofprison systems.
(00:46):
We will use language that mightbe offensive, but we intend to
keep it real.
And if that's not for you, wetotally understand, but please
do what's best for yourlistening ears.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh, we're about to keep it real, son.
Our goal of this podcast is toshare the inside realities of
the American prison and criminaljustice system, from precharges
all the way to post-release,from the voices of those who've
experienced it firsthand,including me.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
That's right, we're going to get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode
of Lockdown on Legacy.
Of course I'm your host, remyJones, and I have a special
treat for you guys this week.
I know we've been doing a lotof the worn and the wise
episodes and I hope you guys arestill loving those, because
those guys love to be a part ofthis show and I love having them
(01:51):
be a part of it.
But we're kind of going back tothe original layout for this
week and I got the beautiful,the wonderful, the smart and the
talented DJ.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Oh, how I have missed that.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I tell you that all the time.
It's not just for the show.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
No, it's not.
You're lovely and wonderful allthe way around.
So I'm really, I'm excited.
I'm excited to be back.
I know it's been intermittentand I appreciate being able to
step away.
This is a season where I needto step away, and so you have
not blinked at that and you'relike, don't worry about it, I
(02:32):
got it.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I breathe in silence.
It's all on the inner side.
It's killing me.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
That's not true.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
No, I mean, I can make it sound good, right.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Anyway, like I said, glad to have you back, love.
It's been far too long.
Let's do a little catch upthough.
I mean the people want to know.
The people want to know.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I don't actually remember when our last episode
together was, so I guess it'sbeen a minute.
Yeah.
I don't even know what'shappened because I don't know
when it was.
I know we talked about our dietonce, so it must have been
after January.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
I'll rub that.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
But I don't really know what happened in February.
What would you like to catch upon?
Well, first starters.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I've tried having a little social life, you know.
So I've done some interestingstuff in the last month or so.
I went to the Drake and J Coleconcert.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I'm my favorite cousin and mentor, ronnie, so
shout out Big Ron.
And then, as a special treat,my brother, of course, the day
before texted me and said thathe was driving up from Virginia
because he was also going to theconcert.
Little bit of amiscommunication, which neither
of us knew that the concert wasgoing to be multiple days long.
(03:59):
So he was actually going to theconcert the day after me, but I
thought we were supposed to bemeeting each other there.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
So I'm like at the front gate, like bro, where are
you at what's?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
the section you in.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
He's like oh we're still driving up there.
I'm like what?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
No, I think that's funny.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, yeah, but good times.
We're having some intermittentgood weather.
You know how Ohio does it, soit was summer last week and it
was spring today and it'll bewinter tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It's been nice, though, like you know, daylight
savings time is what it is, butI do appreciate not coming home
in the dark.
So, at least for me, I'vereally enjoyed that benefit of
walking out of work and it beinglight outside, and it's still
being light for a little bitwhen I get home.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
It's nice to watch the kids ride their bikes and do
the fun stuff.
Those are the simple, easygoingthings that I enjoy.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, and I mean I kind of appreciate the little
hitter and miss good weatherdays too.
I mean I've gotten to bring themotorcycle out.
Kids love going for a ride.
It's interesting they went fromlike, oh, I don't like loud
noises and the bike scares me,to like oh my gosh, can we go on
a bike ride?
It was great.
So we did that.
(05:23):
And then today of course it wasin the 70s and then it rained
and then it got to like tornadoconditions in some places.
But we got to do like a quicklap or two around the circle
with each of our little kids andright as I was coming back the
(05:45):
rain drop started falling.
So it was like that's it.
And then by the time I put thebike away and went out to get in
the car, it was like a full ondownpour because I was just
trying to go, like, pick up somegroceries.
But anyway, I'm in life's great,I like it.
I've been working a lot.
I mean you guys heard me talkabout that with Warren, got some
(06:06):
stuff trying to get off theplate, clean up.
But I don't know if I reallyfeel like I'm working a lot.
I mean, don't get me wrong,when I first come home I'm like
yeah, I'm done, I'm about toquit my job, I'm so tired, I'm
done.
But as long as I get thoselittle 20 minutes to kind of
(06:31):
decompress and switch modeseverything's good when I don't
get those little 20 minutes,though I'd be having to
apologize to Debbie.
I'm sorry, babe, I'm just tiredand mad, but you know.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I think that what's really great about our
relationship is we step up forthe other one when we need to.
I know I think that's goodpartnership.
I've had to step away a lotlately and you have been 100% in
(07:16):
and you're not complaining orFrustrated or anything like that
.
You're just like yep, noproblem, I'll do the dishes,
I'll handle the laundry, I'llstep in.
And Right now you're in aseason where you're working more
and so I'm like, don't worryabout it, I'm gonna get
crock-pot meals and I'm gonna,you know, do these things and
(07:37):
I'm gonna clean on the weekend,and so I don't know.
I am appreciative of the.
Your reciprocity of Knowing thatsometimes it's not 50-50.
I don't think marriage is 50-50, so at least not all the time.
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
I mean, but like I said, I just bad math are behind
your back, I never.
But so Besides you know, ofcourse work, and besides kids,
Mm-hmm.
There's school, yep, and schoolIs Crescing the hill.
We can see the other side.
(08:17):
You can see it.
You can see it, no, no no no,no, no no you're not ready for
this.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Being ready and being able to see it, I think, are
different things.
So when you're in the trenches,you can't really see how close
you are to the end.
You know what I mean?
It all looks dark right now, soyou can't really see like I
think about it, like um, whenyou're scooping the tunnel with
a spoon and you don't reallyknow how close you are to the
other side.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Is that like a what?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
What do you mean?
What is that?
Scooping the tunnel with aspoon like you're trying to dig
out a tunnel, but you're doingit with a spoon.
You don't have a whole shovel,so it's like really tiny.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I got you like there's some Shawshake.
You thought it was like aprison break or something.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
No, I really meant like you're trying to dig
through and you can't.
It's all dark right now, so youcan't really see how close you
are to.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Well, I could see the life for it.
I'll be your spotter.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
No, I'm in it.
I don't.
I don't see the light.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I was driving down the highway the other day and I
saw a billboard for theShawshake Redemption Like tour
of the old MansfieldPenitentiary.
Yeah, I want to go see it.
I want to go see it for, uh,podcast purposes.
It's all research and, and youknow, it's not fun.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
It's not fun.
I mean it's it's not fun, it'sme going to see a prison.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Like been there, done that.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Seen it, lived it Um.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I want to see it because, um, for those of you
who don't know, they have builta new Mansfield prison and they
kind of shut down the oldMansfield Reformatory.
Um, and it was shut down for along time until somebody had the
bright idea to use it for amovie location and so they
(10:07):
filmed the famous movie, um,with uh, what's the guy who
plays?
God and everything morganfreeman.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I don't know any actors, look at me.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Everybody knows god.
So, uh, morgan freeman was inthe movie Shawshake Redemption,
and they filmed it at the oldMansfield Reformatory.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Which kind of in ohio .
We are in ohio, yes, in ohio.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
And um, and it kind of like revitalized it as like a
tourist location.
And so now there's likebillboards everywhere and they
pay you to go to prison or youpay them to go to prison.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, they do the scary thing at the halloween
time to.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Anyway, I worry about that.
I'll say your least fave,you've never been to it.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
I would never go either.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
All right, um as far as books go.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, what you read in.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I haven't actually read a book In a while.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It doesn't mean physically, like what are you
listening to reading my audible?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
though, oh my goodness, listen, I'm tearing it
up.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I'm putting out a lotof miles and instead of just
listening to music, I'm doingthe audible thing.
I'm listening to everything,man, like I've listened to the
the art of war again.
Um, I've listened to a wholelot of fiction like sci-fi, uh,
(11:28):
fantasy fiction and man, thanksfor audible plus, who were not
sponsored by, but theydefinitely give you like some
free here and here, mm-hmm.
And man, I'm tearing up wholeseries of books.
Man, there's one series I'mlike.
I'm like book 10.
Wow.
(11:48):
But I ran out of free credit, sonow I gotta wait Now.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I gotta wait a month or another free credit.
The credits are like each bookslike $15-16 and I'm like I'll
be damned when we share anaccount, so we share our credit.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I don't share anything.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I know you've been taking them all lately.
You tell me I could.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
If you want to retract that statement.
I needed him writing.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I don't have time to listen to anything right now, so
Needed in writing.
Huh.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I sure do.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Um, for me, I am oh what?
I'm not reading anything that'snot First google, like it's not
for a different purpose, likeI'm not reading anything for fun
, um, right now, because what isfun really, at the end of it?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
But if you want a nerd out on here, feel free.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
I don't, I can't, um, I can't pull that thread.
I don't know, it's not thereyet for me, so, um, I can't
report back Until I figured out.
So I will eventually, but, um,but what I'm watching is trash
tv.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Same, thing, I call it trash tv.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
My reward for writing is that I get to watch an
episode of Love is Blind, whichis a terrible reality show about
nothing but drama.
Um, it's a dating show on tvwhere you don't see each other.
You just talk in thesesoundproof pods and fall in love
(13:29):
and then propose sight unseen.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
So this is like my space on tv.
I Don't give it.
Come on, man At.
Like you, I ain't never fell inlove with somebody on my space.
You know them old chat roomsand stuff back in the day.
Everybody know what I'm talkingabout.
Trust me, if y'all over 25,y'all know what I'm talking
(13:52):
about.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
So love is blind.
They just had the reunionepisode, so I just I watched it.
Now I'm out of tv to watch Um.
So I have to think of adifferent thing to reward myself
with, because I can go heavyinto these topics and you know,
research, all these things, andI got to balance that with some
(14:13):
just Absolutely trash justnonsense, some completely random
.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
You know, when it comes to like nonsense tv, I
want to watch um catfish, like Iused to watch that in that
house and that guy's there.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
No, that's oh, that's how to catch a pretty.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, that's how I catch a pretty I'm sort of
catfish is all about, like youknow, meeting people online and
they're not how they say theyare, um, they have, like some
famous people there, or two umCatfish I used to watch, and I
used to watch what's the one?
Um Like cheaters or something.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Oh, I don't know.
Oh man, that was awesome.
I really liked that reallymessed people's lives up.
I really liked those completelystaged and fake shows like
Steve Wilkos and um Um, notJerry Springer, but like more
republics.
Judge Judy, those types of yeah, just terrible, trash.
Reality tv um is usually mybinge when I'm not watching like
(15:12):
a true crime or a documentary,yeah, I'll never forget, or the
golden girl.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
You know what I was saying?
No names man.
I'll never forget being like inprison watching judge joe brown
and my ex-girlfriend was onthere, one of my ex-girlfriends
from like middle school or highschool or something, I don't
know.
I think it was high school,like ninth grade, and she was
crazy she was.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
You've never told me this.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Oh, you ought to learn now, okay.
So, um, this uh unnamed womanwas 24 karat, crazy.
Um, the whole way that I mether was because it was my first
day of school, um, at a newschool, and I was lost and I was
late to class.
(15:57):
And I come up the stairs andthere's this dude.
I got her like by the collar upagainst this locker and so
naturally I run up and you know,just get the beating up dude.
I ain't even asked no questions, I just get the whooping on me.
And then I walked through class.
Well, after school there's thisdude outside waiting for me and
(16:19):
it's not the dude I beat up,it's her brother.
And he's like yo, you wasmessing with my sister.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
And I don't even know nobodyhere.
You know you got the wrongperson.
So I see this girl over there.
She like, yeah, that's him.
So, uh, I'm like dude.
(16:40):
So I tell him what happened andhe sighed with me and then we
together going beat up dudeagain Because, like the fuck you
was trying to do.
Well, so now me and dude hangout for a little bit, um, and I
mean over the course of time,and eventually I end up like
dating this sister they're crazyone.
And it was only for like amonth because she was like legit
(17:04):
, like needed certification, andput away, um, but, um, even
though that ended, and it wasreally like nothing to talk
about, um, one day I'm watchingjudge joe brown and I see her on
there and she's with his dudeand, uh, he's suing her because
(17:25):
she didn't keyed his car andbusted windows and stuff.
And I'm like man, I'm glad Iducked that one right.
And uh, she's like, oh, man,but the reason she did is
because he went off to collegeand she wasn't doing nothing
with her life, and he was likeyo, um, I want to see other
people.
And so she uh Saw his car andvandalized it.
(17:48):
The funny part, though, was thatshe was in court, like wagging
her head and everything, like,yeah, I did it and I should have
flattened this tires too.
I'm like, oh my god, what areyou saying?
So judge joe brown said thefunniest thing I've ever heard a
judge say oh, I don't know,whatever.
But he was like, oh, Iunderstand now.
(18:09):
You mad because he upgraded.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
You a hood rat?
Oh no.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
She got so bad and she was like you a hood rat.
I was like what the fuck howyou call the judge a hood rat
Like it was hilarious man.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I don't think I've ever seen anybody I Actually
know in real life on Any ofthose shows oh man, I got a few.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I can tell you I ain't gonna do that.
We got to get to an episode.
That's right, um, but anyway,man trash tv.
Kids work school.
That's the life baby podcasting.
Shout out to my dude, jacob.
I don't know if he listening.
I ain't gonna say no last names, but jacob just got out.
Man, that was my dude, I'mhappy for him.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Congratulations.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Welcome home.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Um, it's a couple guys.
I know that's uh in the process.
You know they they still umFighting for their chance.
So we gonna, we gonna pray forthem and keep them in our minds
and thoughts and, uh, good luckanyway.
Um, on to today's episode.
This one was thought up by thebeautiful, the lovely and the
(19:23):
talented and the extraordinarilysmart dj.
Um, well, you're just uh, shedoes a lot of reading.
Don't let her fool y'all thatshe ain't reading in her spare
time.
In the Infantismally smallamount of spare time she got.
She always like, babe, I readthis article and sends it to me
(19:44):
and I'm like when you have timeto read an article.
I'm like I'm gonna read it toyou, but anyway, um, it's about
Um abuse of authority.
Mm-hmm and law enforcement.
Yeah, and so we have about 10articles here and we're gonna
cherry pick some information.
We'll include the ones, um, inthe show notes that we actually
read from I'm die.
(20:04):
I doubt we'll have time tocover them all.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Mm-hmm and so here's where we will pause and then get
into our content.
I mean, uh, moment of silenceand we're back so this kind of
came to me as an episode topicwhen, um, well, first, I saw
(20:31):
this article come out infebruary in columbus, ohio, and
I I don't know I saw it happenand I was like we gotta, we
gotta do something about it.
And so the columbus dispatch isthe one who put this article
out and, um, it's about thispolice officer who is charged
(20:54):
with federal drug crimes andlaundering, and I'm gonna talk a
little bit about the articlehere.
But, um, when I read the title,I was just like I wonder how
frequently this happens.
I wonder how Often that we heara lot about law enforcement.
We've, um, the death of georgefloy happened in 2020 and and
(21:16):
the murder I should say the themurder of george floyd by
Minneapolis police happened in2020 and it was one case of over
a hundred Of instances ofpolice brutality towards black
individuals in 2020 by may, um,so that's an extraordinary
figure.
So there's all kinds of theseabuses of power that stick out
(21:40):
to me, whether that's brutality,whether that is, uh, drug
crimes that are perpetuatedthrough Routine stops and doing
your quote-unquote job as apolice officer, but also in the
corrections field, um, and itjust there's this through line
of these Um types of abuse ofauthority and these abuses of
(22:02):
power within the legal system,and we don't have time to talk
about each one today.
Maybe there will be a part twoof this episode, but I thought
about it from the perspectivesof lawyers who exploit clients,
um within the judicial system,people who don't have money so
then have to pay in other means,or in favors or in um you know
(22:24):
Crime.
And then I think about we'vetalked about I mentioned
corrections officers, but also,um, there's just these instances
of Power dynamics within theserelationships that can get taken
advantage of really easily.
And so today I wanted to talk alittle bit about law
enforcement and police officers,but then I wanted to pivot and
(22:45):
talk about corrections officersand the experiences of
incarcerated individuals, um,who have these power
differentials and power dynamicsin play.
Anything there, before I jumpinto the article itself.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Uh, no, but I mean I guess yes, uh, this is not
uncommon.
Um, I mean, like you just said,what, how many?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
you say over a hundred or 200 of police
brutality specifically, butwe're going to talk about um An
article that that talks abouthow many instances of misconduct
happen.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
All, right now.
She's just talking about, um,police right now, um, but you
know this podcast is centeredaround incarceration, um, mostly
.
And when you think police, youdon't really, off the cuff,
think of corrections officers or, uh, the judicial system as a
(23:42):
whole.
And Actually with policethere's a lot more transparency
Than it is with corrections,because with the police you can
simply say, hey, uh, we want tosee the body cam footage and you
can file for a freedom ofinformation act or something
release and you can have thatbody cam footage fairly quickly,
(24:05):
whereas with uh correctionsofficers like if there was an
instance and there have beenwhere let's say, um, an inmate
was assaulted by a group ofcorrections officers and it was
on video, like um, like, let'ssay it was on one of the
institutional uh cameras, thesecurity cameras, and you were,
(24:28):
you were to say, hey, we want tosee those videos they could
plainly say no, because theywould say it's a security threat
to release the footage, becauseit would show the camera angles
and all this other nonsense,you know when.
Basically, it's just themcovering their own ass and we're
they're like oh, we'll lookinto it, don't worry about it.
(24:51):
Right you know, and so you knowthis is we're going to just get
hit.
Go ahead to the uh, the policeexample that you gave.
But I just wanted to keep thatin mind, like it's not the
entirety of it, it's not justyou know, traffic stops and
stuff like that, um, so think alittle more broadly.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, and so this specific article comes from the
columbus dispatch.
Uh, it was really a prud.
And what am I saying?
Produced, released, published,published.
I was gonna get there.
Uh, um, this article waspublished in in february of 2024
and it talks about officer julem Mefford, who was arrested on
(25:40):
federal drug trafficking chargesand money laundering, and so,
basically, the nuts and bolts ofthe story is that this police
officer, who had been employedwith columbus division of police
since 2011, was specificallycharged with possession of five
kilograms or more of cocaine andpossession with intent to
(26:02):
distribute.
At the time, um, he also had twoadditional counts of cocaine
possession and uh intent todistribute, which was 500 grams
or more, and money laundering,and that was enough for me to
like be all in to read the restof this Uh, which led me to this
section, where this articlebasically details it's not just
(26:25):
an officer who is Um buying andselling drugs.
It's an officer who, in searches, was illegally searching Homes
that he they had been sent to,he had been sent to on drug
crimes, and so he shows upwithout a search warrant or he
(26:46):
knows the person's not there,like in the specific example
they talk about.
Uh, in the article.
They're talking about adetached garage where they
gained access to the garage,went in and searched it and
removed, um, some of thekilograms of cocaine and then
(27:06):
left the others there to befound when they came back with
an actual search warrant.
Um, so that's a big one, right?
Because it's not just thiscomponent of Okay, you are
having drugs and selling them,but also he is intentionally
gaining access to propertiesthat he suspects have drugs and
(27:29):
taking some of it so the restcan be found, but then is taking
possession of some of it tothen resell.
So completely abusing this roleas an officer, gaining illegal
access to properties and thentaking drugs to then profit off
of outside.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Like there's so many layers to that in and of itself,
Right, and it says that one ofthe apartment complex employees
gave him access to the garage,helped him gain access to it, so
I'm sure he didn't do that justbecause he was trying to be,
you know, helpful.
I'm sure there was some type ofintimidation factor or
(28:10):
something there, or flexing thatwhole position of authority as
a police officer.
So I mean there's that's kindof disturbing on all kinds of
levels.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And when it comes to like the drugs themselves, it's
like just leave just enough toget the charges we want and the
rest is, like you know, pureprofit, I guess.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yes, and exactly what you're saying, with this
intimidation and incidents priorto this.
That happened in 2020.
Again, this officer wasinvestigating a drug trafficking
operation with houses on I mean, I don't want to give all the
way the geographical locationsin Columbus for protection of
(28:52):
other people but this indictmentbasically says that Mefford,
this officer that we're talkingabout approached a suspect in
their investigation and at a gasstation and basically the
person said to Mefford thatthere was cocaine in the house
over on one of the drives alongthe way, and so Mefford went and
(29:17):
took a bag of multiplekilograms of cocaine from one of
the individuals that he wastalking to to figure out where
the drugs are, but then went tothe house and took some of the
other drugs, but again left someto then be found.
And so there's I don't knowthese stories keep going on Like
(29:37):
previous to that, one monthbefore this replaced drugs that
were found with fake cocaine sothat he could take the real
cocaine.
So there's just all of theseinstances, but in each of them
there are these individualsinvolved who I'm sure, are
scared right, they havepossession of drugs or know
(29:57):
about drugs, and that'sintimidating.
But you also have this policeofficer who is this quote
unquote authority figure, and soyou feel the need to comply and
this intimidation component.
And this is where the abuse ofpower comes in, from two levels.
There's an abuse of power ofthese individuals and their
(30:20):
rights right Gaining access tohomes without search warrants,
those kinds of things, but alsoan abuse of power believing that
you are more elite than you areas an, the forcer of the law,
and you talk about that a lot.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, it really bothers me when you see people
exercise their rights and otherpeople like give them shit for
it.
Because my guilty pleasure is Iwatch a lot of videos online and
I'm in this like group onFacebook called police the
(30:56):
police, and it's where peoplerecord their like, traffic stops
and stuff and they upload it.
And it's always like someoverly brazen cop who comes and
just starts saying like whatthey're gonna do, and people are
like no, and then they're likeyes, I am.
And these people are like wellversed, like they do their
(31:17):
research, and they're like no,according to this law and this
subsection and this, and thatyou need X, y and Z, so if you
can give me that, that'd begreat.
And then the officers are likeoh, you're one of them, you know
right.
And then it's like theyimmediately get aggressive
because they're gettingresistance and and even other
(31:38):
people, like other privatecitizens, are like oh man,
they're crazy, you know, justlike, if you don't got nothing
to hide, just do it.
Yeah, if you're not guilty,what's the problem?
And it's like that's the reasonwhy there is this abuse of
power, because you're used topeople just laying down and
forfeit their rights and youknow, I'm not one of those like
people that's going to go outthere and like and you got to
(31:59):
fight the power.
But you know, at the same timeit's like, um, when the cop
comes up to you and you're notwell versed in your rights and
you don't want to exercise them,and a cop comes up and he's
like hey, um, you're an employeeat this apartment complex, I
need you to let me in, you know.
(32:20):
And you're like well, no, Ican't.
And he's like all right, well,I know that there's a drug
trafficking ring going on and ifyou're standing in my way, I'm
going to charge you as acomplicit.
And you're like whoa, you know,yeah, man, I can lock you up
and give you a reef.
Oh, and that's 10 yearsmandatory.
You like whoa, whoa.
All right, man, let's just goover there.
You know, yes, Like that's notunheard of, that happens a lot
(32:41):
Like.
Or, you know, trying to guiltyou into it, Like, don't you
want to?
be a good Samaritan, these drugsare on the streets and if
you're protecting them andyou're like whoa, whoa, whoa,
nobody's protecting anybody,right, but I mean, I don't know,
I don't know, I don't know, Idon't know, I don't know, I
don't know, I don't know, Idon't know, nobody's protecting
anybody you know, but I meanthat's the tactics.
(33:03):
I mean we talked about this withscare tactics.
It's like you know, you knowsomething, I don't know anything
.
Well, if you don't, then gohelp me find them.
And it's horrible, man, it ishorrible and I understand that.
You know there is a level ofcunning that needs to be
(33:25):
exercised by law enforcement toget results, but at the same
time, there is also a high levelof abuse of, you know, mental
manipulation, of intimidation,you know, and sometimes just
flat out thuggery.
Thuggery.
(33:46):
Thuggery, I'm serious.
I mean because listen all rightso I told you I watched these
videos a lot and I've also had alot of interactions with police
officers from my past life.
So I know, because I alwaysthink in weird ways, immediately
when my interactions with thepolice start, I start analyzing
their body language, theirtactics and everything.
(34:08):
I recognize them so that I knowwhat they're trying to use
against me.
As soon as police start talkingto you, what do they do?
The one that's talking to youis on this side and the other
one walks around the other sideof you and so you're like what
the fuck are you doing overthere?
So as soon as you go to pivot,they pivot.
(34:28):
They want to control the area.
They want you to feelintimidated.
You know, if you invite them inyour house, one of them is going
to sit there and talk to youand one of them is going to
start walking through your house.
That's why I always say, likeyou know, walk out, talk to them
outside, because as soon asthey go in the house, that's an
illegal search.
As soon as you invite them in,oh, they can come up with any
(34:51):
amount of reasons.
So I saw this and it wassuspicious.
So whatever, but anyway, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
And all of these are just examples of there's lack of
oversight.
Right and I think that that'shave we talked on this podcast
before about Columbus's taskforce now for police oversight,
law enforcement oversight.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
So that is part of a new law that passed by voters,
by the people in.
I was at last year, two yearsago.
It's very recent and it's sonow.
People who are advocates andactivists and, you know, judges
and all kinds of folks are onthis.
I don't know if it's called atask force, but it's like this
(35:37):
law enforcement oversightcommittee that investigate these
exact things, these pieces ofmisconduct, and so I'll try to
talk a little bit more aboutthat at the end and pull up some
information.
But really, what I wanted tohighlight with this article is
that this is not unique, likeyou just said, remy, that these
(35:58):
pieces of the puzzle happenfrequently.
We just don't know or hearabout them a lot.
I think it's becoming morecommon with social media.
Everything seems to be recorded.
People are recording theirinteractions more now and body
cam footage is like a must inmost stops, so those things help
(36:18):
.
But when I read this article inparticular about Mefford and
planting drugs, taking drugs,coercing people into giving him
drugs who he had stopped, andyou know, all on duty, it's this
clear abuse of I am anauthority figure and I'm going
to use that position to get whatI want, but I also, in some
(36:40):
case, some regard, feel like Ican get away with it.
Like I feel like as an officerof the law, I can get away with
that a little bit becausethere's an intent again to
distribute and profit off ofthat.
It doesn't talk about whetheror not he was using anything,
but it does very clearly talkabout this intent to distribute,
(37:01):
so I think that that's reallynoteworthy.
Were you going to say somethingthere?
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
No, I was just thinking.
The factor that is probablyoverlooked is that if you're
stealing drugs to sell drugs, itmeans that you're probably
picking and choosing whatcriminals you're going to
prosecute and you're lettingother criminals go because
(37:29):
otherwise you have no pipelinefor your drugs.
That's true, that's true.
But I'm stealing kilos of coke.
We're talking about bricks.
We're talking about a lot ofcocaine, a huge value per kilo.
You're not just like going outon the beat and selling that
(37:49):
rock by rock yourself.
You got to be If you got kilos.
You're probably selling kilosto people that then go and sell
it on the street.
So we're not talking about dimebags and grams of cocaine that
somebody goes and snips in thebathroom.
(38:10):
We're talking about bricks,large quantities.
I mean, listen, I've been outthe game for a while, but kilos
of cocaine were like damn, their30 grand per kilo.
So we're talking about a yearlysalary here in one theft
(38:30):
no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah, to kind of put this in a broader perspective, I
wanted to talk about cases ofpolice misconduct, law
enforcement misconduct and liketalk about what they happen most
often, for what percentages,those kinds of things.
So to do that, I wanted tofirst go back to a comment that
(38:53):
you made about, you know, inaccess versus private systems
and stuff that corrections has.
While police in most states arepublic entities, their
misconduct records are notnecessarily.
And so sure, you could requestbody cam footage.
(39:15):
But it isn't a clear cut answerand if you were actually going
to get it.
So I found this article from theAP and it has this analysis of
policemen, misconduct recordsand laws in all 50 states and
what it basically outlines ineach individual states is who
has completely open access tothose public records and what
(39:37):
states don't.
So, for example, alabama is arestricted state.
Police disciplinary records areavailable to the public, but
agencies can require thatrequesters state the reason for
their request and can deny basedon whatever their reason is.
So that's really interesting, Ithink.
Another one is Ohio is an openaccess state, pretty much, so I
(40:05):
was surprised a little by that.
It says Ohio is mostly publicand it says law enforcement
misconduct records are availableto the public in Ohio you just
have to put in a public recordsrequest and so there are all 50
states on this list.
But several states arerestricted.
New Jersey, new Mexico are bothrestricted states and you can
(40:29):
make requests again similar toAlabama but depending on your
reason for requesting, itdoesn't mean that you get access
to that.
The attorney general isactually the ones who get to
make that decision, which Ithink is really interesting.
So it's not as open and shut asoh, the police are public
(40:51):
entities so we should haveaccess to any of their records.
If you are the individual thathas experience, that, that's
different or you're trying tomake a complaint, but if it's
actually trying to find outabout specific misconduct, that
is much more difficult to find,which is why, when I went to
(41:14):
this USA Today article, I wasreally shocked at how low this
number was.
But then, as this article andthe AP and several other sources
go on to say, yes, we can lookat 85,000 cops who have been
investigated for misconduct andwe can read these records, but
they're really hard to source.
So 85,000 is the number we haveaccess to.
(41:36):
That is not representative ofhow much is going on across all
50 states, correct.
So in this USA Today article,like I said, 85,000 records is
what this article in particularanalyzes and polls in terms of
(41:56):
what it is they can point outfor misconduct.
Amongst the findings, here arethree big points.
Most misconduct involvesroutine infractions, but the
records reveal tens of thousandsof cases of serious misconduct
and abuse.
This includes 22,924investigations of officers using
excessive force, 3,145allegations of rape, child abuse
(42:21):
, molestation and or othersexual misconduct and 2,300
cases of domestic violence byofficers.
The second dot point is thatdishonesty is a really frequent
problem.
So amongst this analysis, whatUSA Today was able to find among
this 85,000, was that roughly2,200 of those instances were
(42:43):
for perjury or tampering withevidence or witnessing or
falsifying reports, which isexactly what we're talking about
with Mefford in Columbus, isreplacing drugs with fake drugs
or tampering with the scene andtaking some home.
Where all of those pieces fallwithin this tampering with
evidence, falsifying reports,etc.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Or even like one officer shows up on the scene
and he's there by himself.
By the time backup comes, he'sgiving them what happened and
even if they witness somethingdifferent, they'll all.
Okay, let's cooperate our storyso we can put it down in our
reports.
That happens all the time.
(43:27):
This was probably around like2018 when I was up in Akron, but
there was a story about a copAkron cop who had like a man I
can't remember.
All I remember is that he hadlike almost 300 complaints filed
(43:54):
against him that year and notone of them resulted in him
being out of commission.
He wasn't on dust duty, hewasn't punished or anything, and
yet somehow it got to the pointwhere he ended up doing
something really bad.
I know there was a video.
Something was happening.
I think he was trying to arrestthis lady's son and she came
(44:15):
out trying to defend her son andhe like beat this lady up and
it's all on video and everything.
And of course he's got thatbrazen attitude of like I am the
law and she's just trying tofigure out, like why the fuck
are you putting a hand on my son?
And of course she was animatedand she was like emotional and
(44:38):
kind of yelling, but I mean theresponse didn't really fit the
situation and it got to thepoint to where, like it's broad
daylight, it's out in public,and I mean, people see this
happening.
So now people are coming overthere and now he's feeling like
he has to defend himself againstthese other people.
(45:00):
So now it's one of those thingswhere you know police like to
say like oh, I feared for mylife, but this is clearly a
situation that he created.
And it just kind of blew mymind that you can have almost
300 complaints against you andstill be out doing your job in
public.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Well, that's what I was just about to say.
This last point, I think,speaks volumes and here's how it
reads.
So I want to read itspecifically from the article
and then we can kind of talkabout it.
But it says less than 10% ofofficers in most police forces
get investigated for misconduct.
Yet some officers areconsistently under investigation
.
Nearly 2,500 have beeninvestigated on 10 or more
(45:42):
charges.
20 faced 100 or moreallegations, yet kept their
badge for years.
And so I read this less than10% in most public or most
police forces get investigatedfor misconduct.
I think you could read that twoways.
One is less than 10% ofofficers are committing
misconduct and thus don't getinvestigated because they're not
(46:04):
committing anything.
Or less than 10% of officers inmost police forces get
investigated for misconductbecause they just don't get
investigated.
It's a lack of oversight, butthere are more than 10%
committing it.
Like I think there are two waysto interpret that and the dot
point is vague, but it goes on.
(46:26):
The article goes on to talkabout exactly that oversight
that varies from state to statein terms of how states have
policies in place to deal withmisconduct of their police
forces.
For example, georgia andFlorida decertified thousands of
police officers for everythingfrom crimes to questions about
(46:47):
their fitness to serve, andother states banned almost none,
like Maryland.
They had an over a decade.
Maryland only decertified fourofficers in 10 years.
And in Minneapolis, of course,where officer Derek Chauvin
(47:08):
murdered George Floyd, sevenofficers have been decertified
since 2009.
So there are really vastspectrums, I guess, of what
oversight looks like and howinvestigation of those things
happen.
And I think Reverend AlSharpton said it really well at
(47:32):
Floyd's Feudal, actually in 2020.
And you know, I think thisquote sticks.
But he says until the law isupheld and people know they will
go to jail, they're going tokeep doing it because they are
protected by wickedness in highplaces.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Yeah, and I also wanted to circle back and say,
like that officer that hadalmost 300 complaints against
him, like you said, it's lessthan 10% that are actually
investigated.
So just because the complaintswere documented don't mean
anybody actually looked into it,right?
Speaker 2 (48:11):
And that's why I was saying, with that dot point,
right, it could be less than 10%get investigated, because less
than 10% need to be investigatedor it could be because there's
lots of allegations and peopleare still keeping their badges,
even with these reports existing, and that's the piece.
(48:31):
I think that's hard to discernbecause every state is different
in terms of, a their oversight,but also B their misconduct.
Transparency there is a lack oftransparency to the public, but
the public and taxpayers arewho fund police forces in most
(48:53):
states.
I can't speak for all states,right, but that's how it works
here.
So there is a level ofobligation to be transparent
with the people you are quotesworn to serve and protect.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
No, I don't even remember what I was going to say
.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Okay, so I think that's all I really wanted to
say.
With law enforcement, I justreally wanted to point out that
this is probably the most commontype of misconduct, type of
abuse of power that we can thinkof in terms of the judicial
(49:43):
system, but that it happens allover the place.
So I wanted to start therebecause I feel like that's a
commonality, like that's athread that people can pick up
pretty easily and be like I seeexamples of this.
I think it's important that wesay I would hope people know
this, but we're not down on lawenforcement or I'm down on the
bad ones.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
I'm going to be straight up.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
No, I agree, but I don't want the perception to be.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, yeah, we're not like anti-cop man.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
And I don't think that all cops are bad, but I
think that bad cops make itreally hard to trust any cops,
at least from the perspective ofindividuals who are stopped by
police more frequently and morebiased than others.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Right, there was a video in one of those police to
police groups where the guy wasdoing a first amendment audit
and that's basically like theyjust go and stand out in public
and wait for the police to comeand talk to them and they record
it.
And so this guy in particular,he was like this real skinny
(50:51):
Hispanic guy and he had on cargoshorts and a wife beater, you
know tank top and he had a GoProstrapped to his chest and he
had one in his hand and he stoodoutside the sheriff's
department and he was just likeover across the street from
where, like the parking lotwhere they park other cars and I
(51:14):
mean it's public, there's a lotof like people walking by and
stuff.
And then all of a sudden yousee this cop come out and this
dude looks like the rock, Likehe's built, you know, and he's
like hey, what are you doing?
You know, let me see some ID.
And the guy's like no, I don'thave to show you ID, I'm not
doing anything.
He's like, Well, what are youdoing out here?
He's like I'm just filming fora story, I'm a journalist.
(51:37):
And so the guy demands like tosee, like confiscate his video
cameras.
He's like no.
And next thing, you know, likefive or six more officers come
out and totally surround thisdude and they got on like
bulletproof vests and tacticalgear and like at least three or
(51:59):
four of them had their hands ontheir gun.
And the dude's like why are youguys here?
And he tells the one dude likeAmen, don't stand behind me.
Like he keeps moving, trying toput his back against the wall.
And the guy that's talking tohim was like hey, man, why are
you acting so funny Like he's?
Like you got to understand thatit's my job to make sure that
(52:20):
this area is safe, becauseyou're acting funny and stuff,
and I'll never forget that.
Just do say that something.
That was like just totallyprofound.
And he was like hey, listen, man, this area was really safe
until six dudes with their handson their gun showed up for one
guy in cargo shorts and a tanktop, and so he was like so
(52:40):
what's your name?
And the guy, like the cops,refused to give them them give
him their names.
And so he was like Well, you'rethe supervisor, right?
Why are you sitting hereletting this guy like not
identify himself?
And the supervisor, like herealizes like he was a sergeant
(53:04):
and he realizes like, oh fuck.
So he's like, hey, give me yourname.
But it's like he starts going onwith his name and his badge
number and stuff.
But it's like the supervisorwas right there, ready to play a
part in that and ready to lethis subordinate totally
(53:25):
disregard the policy and the law, and they were totally willing
to intimidate this guy intodoing something that he did not
have to do and then eventuallythey all just ended up walking
back inside with like nothing.
This guy totally like kickedtheir ass as far as you know,
you know upholding his rights.
(53:46):
But I mean, it just goes toshow, like those situations
where if you're not willing toput yourself in that position
and you're willing to just likego along and do whatever just
because you want the situationto go away, you can find
yourself in any type of badsituation.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Once again, sorry if you guys hear the rumble in the
background while we're recording.
I told you like the weatherkind of got a little iffy and so
it's kind of really bad windoutside and thundering.
So sorry about that, but we aresafe and we have been checking
on our family.
(54:29):
So if you heard the phonesvibrating and stuff while we're
recording, sorry about that too,but you know families all
checking in.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Yeah, and so I think for our next episode we should
pivot and really dive into alesser known kind of abusive
power, which is that ofcorrections officers.
And again, I mean I think youmade a really good point of this
at the beginning that thisoperates on a completely
(54:59):
different type of system,whereas law enforcement agencies
are public entities and sothere's a little more leniency,
even though correctionsfacilities are largely funded by
states, at least here in Ohioand you're more public than
private prisons in the UnitedStates.
(55:20):
Public does not meantransparent, and I think that
we're going to see a lot of thatwhen we come back next week to
talk about what it means toabuse power as a corrections
officer and what that powerdifferential as an incarcerated
individual looks like and howthat's a little bit different
(55:40):
than being able to exercise yourright as a citizen like who's
free in the world and can dothings like stand out in front
of the police station and feelsafe enough to do that.
Incarcerated folks don'tnecessarily have that same
opportunity.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
Right, Especially like you know out here.
I mean, you have thatinteraction and, assuming you
make it through it on skates,you go home and you may or may
not ever see that officer again,Whereas incarcerated it's like
that person can repeatedly, dayin and day out, make your life
(56:18):
miserable.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
Yeah, you know and it's not to say that all
interactions are safe withpolice at home.
We know the disproportionalitythat exists and how many
interactions just feel unsafe,even in being a free citizen of
the world, but just thinkingabout how that's compounded by
(56:39):
being incarcerated is next level.
So we want to make sure wespend some dedicated time there
to talk about that, and that'swhy we're going to end our time
together here this week and thenpick up with a part two where
we go in deep, and that's it.
Speaker 1 (56:56):
That's it.
Hope you guys followed all ofthat and I hope that you either
learn something new or at leastenjoy the conversation.
Thanks for being a part of this.
I appreciate you guys tuning inand, as always, feel free to
hit us up on social media onFacebook, the Lockdown Legacy
podcast, anywhere else IG,linkedin, twitter, x, whatever
(57:25):
and our website Lockdown Legacy.
So please also email if you'reone of those old fashioned
people.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
Email, old fashioned now.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
It very much is oh, okay, at stories,
storieslockdownluxycom.
So anyway, thank you all again,and thank you, dj, for being a
part of this as well.
Ooh, big rumbles.
All right, we're out, peace,bye.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a
part of the Buzzsprout podcastcommunity network.
Lockdown to Legacy is recordedat co-hatch in their lovely
audiophile room.
Thanks for your scholarship.
Audio engineering is done byour very own Remy Jones.
You can reach us with anyfeedback, questions, comments or
share the love by emailingstories at lockdown, the number
(58:20):
two Legacycom stories atlockdown to Legacycom.
You can reach out there too fora free sticker, and you can
find us on Instagram and Twitterwith the handle at Lockdown to
Legacy and on Facebook at theLockdown to Legacy podcast.
Thanks for listening.
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