April 4, 2024 • 57 mins
Stepping through the revolving doors of the criminal justice system elicits a myriad of emotions—it's a world where the lines between right and wrong are often blurred and where power can easily become a weapon. Our journey today isn't for the faint of heart as we tear away the veil to reveal the gritty and complex truths hidden within America's correctional facilities, drawing from the harrowing experiences of those who know it best, including Remie's. From personal stories of becoming a novice soccer coach to the academic rigors of dissertation writing, we share the lessons learned in weaving a tapestry of resilience amidst the turmoil.
The power dynamics within prison walls seldom make it to mainstream conversation, yet they form the backbone of today's candid dialogue. We traverse the dark corridors of abuse, from the physical to the psychological, and lay bare the stories that need to be told. Whistleblowers walk a tightrope, their voices often stifled by the very system meant to guard justice, and we dissect the cultural aftermath. These discussions are punctuated with hope—visions for reform that dignify those behind bars and smooth their re-entry into a world that has moved on without them.
As we wrap up our session, our heartfelt thanks go out to our loyal listeners. We extend a virtual hand to you, our listeners, inviting you to connect, to offer your insight, and to join us in the unfolding narrative of human triumph over adversity. Each episode is a testament to the strength of spirit, from the shadows of incarceration to the bright potential of what lies beyond.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to Lockdown to Legacy stories from the
inside out.
I'm your host, remy Jones.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I am co-host Debbie Jones.
We're a husband and wife teamhere to bring you the real life
stories, experiences andquestions around the American
criminal justice system.
We do advise discretion withthis podcast.
I think we should put that outthere first and foremost.
Yes, we are going to talk aboutexperiences that happen inside
the prison system, outside ofprison systems.
(00:46):
We will use language that mightbe offensive, but we intend to
keep it real.
And if that's not for you, wetotally understand, but please
do what's best for yourlistening ears.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh, we about to keep it real, son.
Our goal of this podcast is toshare the inside realities of
the American prison and criminaljustice system, from
pre-charges all the way topost-release, from the voices of
those who've experienced itfirsthand, including me.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
That's right, let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode
of Lockdown to Legacy.
I am your host, Remy Jones.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And I am your co-host , Debbie Jones.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Come on, you gotta say it.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
What.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
The beautiful, the talented.
You can say it about yourselfbrag on yourself the beautiful,
talented, smart andawe-inspiring debbie jones, aka
dj.
Please don't call her deej.
We'll fight all right.
Um, before we get too up toofar off into this, I owe you all
(02:04):
an apology.
I had some personal stuff goingon in life and I dropped the
ball in scheduling in all thedifferent arenas.
So I am a new coach of somefive and under kids for soccer
and I mean, can I publicly sayit's not been the best?
You've only had one practice.
How are you going to say that?
And I mean, can I publicly sayit's not been?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
the best.
You've only had one practice.
How are you going to say that?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Because that one practice made me question
everything about my life.
But you know, hey, it's been.
I'm waiting on it to berewarding.
I think it will be good.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
It'll be fun.
It was the first one.
They were just excited.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, and you know I'm thinking of some new stuff.
Got some new plans as far aspractices go and I can't wait
for the first game.
It is going to be epic to seethese little kids scrambling
around with nothing but thebright, shiny ball to chase.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
They don't know how to score a goal.
They don't know how to kick aball.
They don't know how to kick aball.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
When it happens, it's going to be big.
It should be Someone's going toget it to roll in that net.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Hilarious.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And they're going to cheer and I'm going to be proud,
Mm-hmm.
So other than that, on updates,you know things are pretty
chill.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
We've got a vacation next week, which is exciting.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
That's what I was going to say.
Vacation going to Philly.
We got any Philly listeners?
Please tap in, hit us up onsocial media, give us some
suggestions of what we shouldlook at.
Remember, we need something, alittle balance.
You know, I'm from the hood.
I want to see something, atleast one thing ratchet, but I
prefer to stay safe.
Also, I don't need any of that.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I want the history and the museums and the places
to eat.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, and I ain't talking about Whataburger, you
got anything like that.
Keep it off the list.
I'm talking about bougie eating.
All right, all right.
Other other updates, otherupdates, other updates.
Um, working hard on thatdissertation it's been some late
nights burning that, uh, whatthey call it, the midnight oil I
(04:17):
think that's the phrase.
Yeah, yeah but progress,progress is happening.
I'm proud, I'm proud of you.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Thank you.
It's a labor of love.
I think it's a baby.
It's a lot of work so I guessso.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, it's just like a baby.
You're going to cry sometimes.
You're probably going to cryfor no reason, you don't even
know why.
But at the end I'm going to betaking them pictures of you
holding them little plaques andstuff.
I'm ready?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
you're just ready for it to be over?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I think I mean I'm about just as ready as you are,
but you know I'm gonna do itwith a smile.
I'm gonna do it with a smile,um other than that we are
getting ready for spring youknow, if any of you guys know
what ohio uh spring is like,it's uh winter, you know, with
uh and tornadoes.
A couple warm days, we've hadsome really bad tornadoes, um,
(05:14):
some of them have affected ourfamily, um, but we've been very
fortunate that the majority ofit has not.
But, um, you know, our heartsand condolences go out to the
places around us that were hitvery hard.
There have been some casualtiesand a lot of damage.
So I mean, if you guys couldlook up some organizations to
(05:39):
donate to that are helping outwith the relief, that'd be great
.
I don't think I have any that Ican post in the links right now
.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Check out your local United Way chapters.
They are leading a lot of theeffort, as well as the emergency
management agencies, EMA orFEMA, F-E-M-A of the state of
Ohio.
They are all kind of leadingthe charge.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
That's why I keep you baby, that's why I keep you
close.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Got all the official stuff.
Man Happy to help andcontribute in that way.
And lastly, we will announcethis again at the end, but we've
got a pretty big announcement,right.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
For sure it's.
I don't know, depending on howyou look at it good news, bad
news, whatever but in the end,in the grand scheme of things, I
think it's going to be a verypositive thing for the podcast.
And that thing is we are goingto go on hiatus, more like
(06:39):
changing the format of it.
So you know, a lot of podcastsdo seasons and we were thinking
that that would be a good thingto do.
Give us time to kind of getahead, mass record some stuff
and not be so pressed to fiteverything into this schedule.
You know, remember we got fourkids.
We're working full-time jobs,going to school and other things
(07:03):
, but this is something that wedefinitely love doing and don't
want to give up on, and Idefinitely don't want to
half-ass you either.
So it'll give me a chance toput those good ideas that I've
been mentioning into theproduction line and we're going
to come back bigger and better.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
And so you will continue to hear from us until
the end of this month, so thatit's not a disruption to your
normal listening.
So don't expect that today's it, and then you're never going to
hear from us again.
We're not going to ghost youlike that.
So you'll hear from us untilthe end of April, regular
Fridays, like normal, and thenwe will announce weekly.
(07:46):
You'll get this repetition andreminder and we will be putting
out when our new season willdrop after that, but my guess is
it will be sometime midsummer.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, also, it's not going to be a total radio
silence.
We're still going to be activeon social media.
So, um, I'll still be makingperiodic posts there and, uh,
giving you guys updates on theupcoming additions to new
features to the podcast.
So if you guys still want toengage with us that way, I
(08:19):
strongly recommend it and I willbe so happy.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
And our ask of you in the interim is please write in
your questions, particularly forWarren and Wise.
That's an episode that we arereally hoping to put together
and we want some more questionsfor that.
So if you've been thinking of,what does this look like in
(08:44):
prison?
What does this look like?
How does everybody go to thebathroom?
That's usually the big one,right Like, how does this stuff
happen?
Like, if you want to know thosethings, no question is off of
the table.
They are willing to answer.
Remy, of course, is alsowilling to contribute his
knowledge, past experiences, tothat conversation.
But send us a kite.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, oh, that was a good one, thank you.
Also, when it comes to Warrenand Wise, these guys have been
laying their hearts out there,man.
They have even expressedinterest in you guys right now,
and so if you have questionsregarding, like, what was like
life like before prison, whatled to, you know, prison, or the
(09:28):
current circumstances, or whatthey've been doing in the
meantime to better prepare forcoming home, like, I think
they'd be very receptive to that.
So, like I said, whateverwithin reason, you know, just
try to be respectful about it.
And I mean those guys will loveto, you know, shower you with
(09:49):
their stories, with theirinsights, you know, and they
love it just as much as we do.
They have expressed theirgratitude for the people who
have sent word to them, you know, and, in general, just for
having this platform.
So I'm glad that we could dothat, and they are too.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
And so you can submit those questions to us formally
via email at stories atlockdown2legacycom, or you can
send those to us via message.
Of course, we do have socialmedia platforms.
We are active on Facebook,Instagram, Twitter and Facebook
Messenger.
Yes, you can message us on anyof those and also the big one.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
One of the additions that I kept talking about is our
website, which I would like totake the time to shout out
lockdowntolegacycom.
There is a place where you cangive your shout out and it will
be submitted directly to us, andso that is one of the things
that I would like to stronglyencourage you to take the time
(10:55):
to visit.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Great.
Any other updates from your end.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Nah.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
All right.
Well, let's take a break andthen we're going to get into it.
The following episode of thelockdown to legacy podcast
features language we don't oftenuse in other episodes, and so
(11:23):
we wanted to provide appropriatewarning.
Within this episode, we talkabout instances of physical
violence, sexual assault andvictimization, and potentially
harmful language out of context.
Viewer discretion is advised.
So our topic tonight is a parttwo of an episode we did a
couple weeks ago about the abuseof power.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yep.
So we talked about the abuse ofpower on the side of law
enforcement, as in, you know,police officers and that type of
thing, but the mostlyoverlooked arm of the law is
corrections officers.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
And we alluded to this a little bit within that
episode that corrections is alittle bit harder to patrol, and
so this is going to come up alittle bit more.
You know, law enforcement hasits pitfalls in terms of how
things get enforced, whatreviews look like, what's
available to the public, butcorrections is a little bit even
more of a mystery, because westill have a lot of privatized
(12:24):
institutions within the prisonsystem and while these private
institutions are slowly, veryslowly going away, they still
exist.
And so, as a generalunderstanding, what we're
talking about tonight ismisconduct.
We are going to talk about it,but we're talking about
(12:45):
misconduct from this standpointof.
This is an intentional abuse ofauthority, an intentional
taking of a position of power,right of a power, differential
power dynamic and using it toone's advantage.
(13:05):
And the population we're talkingabout specifically is those who
are incarcerated.
So misconduct, by legaldictionary definition, is any
unlawful conduct on the part ofa person concerned in the
administration of justice whichis prejudicial to the rights of
parties.
So when we're thinking aboutthis misconduct, this can be
(13:30):
lots of different types of abuseor neglect that happens towards
incarcerated folks in lots ofdifferent ways.
According to the Black LawDictionary, abuse is cruelty
that causes harm to another.
I think we can think of abusepretty broadly, and with
incarcerated folks this tends toshow up in physical, sexual,
(13:52):
emotional, psychological orneglectful ways.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yes, and we're not just talking about in men's
prison, we're also referring towomen's prison and juvenile
detention facilities.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
They're also referring to women's prison and
juvenile detention facilitiesand what's interesting and a
little bit sad is the prevalenceof correctional officer
misconduct.
It's hard to kind of get thisdata.
I looked on Prison PolicyInstitute and the Marshall
Project and Sentencing Projectand lots of other places that
(14:27):
really do these briefings, thatkind of put the data out there
and even within those reallywell vetted evidence, you know
informed type of places who dothis work daily, they were like
this is a hard one to put afinger to because it's so swept
under the rug to put a finger to, because it's so um swept under
(14:47):
the rug and each institutionhas its own kind of review
process and policies associatedand what's released to the
public is um nil right, heavilyredacted.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
um, as many of you know, like the freedom of
information act is the main toolthat is used to police, the
police.
Whenever there's body camfootage, whenever there's police
reports, you know you file aFreedom of Information Act
request to get that footage orinformation or whatever, so that
(15:19):
it can be viewed by the public.
When it comes to corrections,it's not so easily gained, like
even with a Freedom ofInformation Act request.
It's like they really don'thave to abide by that because of
security issues.
And that's the first thing theyquote is like no, we can't show
you that security footagebecause it reveals the exact
(15:44):
location of security cameras,what cameras are active and what
cameras are decoys and suchthings as that.
So a lot of times there isfootage and they refuse to
release it, and that makes itreally hard, especially as
someone on the inside who'sfighting for justice.
(16:05):
It makes it hard for us on theoutside fighting for justice.
But if you don't have anybodyon the outside to fight for you,
you're pretty much just screwedif you're on the inside.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, and that's unfortunate, and that's a point
that's going to come up againand again as we talk is this
notion that if something wrongis happening to you, who do you
then report that to, if theperson who is quote unquote in
charge of you is the one beingunlawful towards you in some
(16:36):
regard?
So how do you then report thisincident of happening or this
pattern of abuse happening?
If this person is in a positionof authority over you, and with
incarcerated folks, it's as ifeverybody is in a position
that's better than you.
You're looked at as nobodyright.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Right.
I think a lot of us have seeninstances where there have been
officers that becamewhistleblowers, where they have
stopped a fellow officer fromcommitting some type of wrong or
they have reported on thatofficer doing that wrong and
(17:19):
then they were severelyblackballed and punished
afterwards.
Yeah, and that is the same forcorrections.
I even have a personal instancewhere I was sent to the hole
and there was the lady thatwrote the ticket on me got
another CO who was pretty racist, openly racist, to back her
(17:43):
story.
That was a lie, pretty racistand openly racist to back her
story.
That was a lie.
And another CEO came and wrotea statement for me on my behalf
saying that they witnessed whathappened.
So the original lady who wroteme up got fired, but not too
long after that the lady whowrote a statement on me on my
behalf actually got fired also.
(18:04):
So it's it's really hard to,like I said, even when you're on
the inside, you're trying tofigure out who can I get to come
to my my you know my side tohelp and you get somebody who
wants to do the right thing andthen they immediately get them
out of there.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Um.
We also had a um.
What was he Major who wasdemoted?
They said he was too inmatefriendly.
So, it happens, and it reallyhappens, no matter what height
you rise to within thathierarchy.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, and I have a little.
I think I have a few examplesof those coming up towards the
end that I want to talk about,because I always try to leave
some policy recommendation, butpolicy is hard when there is no
infrastructure to support it.
So we can kind of dissect thata little bit closer to the end.
But I wanted to kind of givesome examples and of course,
(19:04):
remy, you can add your ownpersonal stories to this,
because I'm sure the things youhave seen parallel this or, you
know, exacerbate this further.
So these are some examples oftypes of misconduct as reported
by the Federal Bureau ofInvestigations.
So they are correction officerPaul Tillis of Florida was
(19:27):
convicted of intentionallypouring, scalding hot water on
an inmate and refusing medicalassistance for the injury which
occurred.
That was in 2005.
Another correction officer herein Ohio, actually Seth Bunke,
was convicted of kicking aninmate repeatedly in the face
and head.
I probably should have put atrauma warning at the beginning
of this.
(19:47):
So if you made it through thosetwo, my apologies.
Some of these are going to be alittle bit trigger warning ish
Um.
Correction officer in New Mexicowas convicted of sexual abuse
of a female inmate in 2010.
As you can imagine that'sreally common and it's going to
come up um within this episodetoo.
Corrections officer inWisconsin was convicted of
(20:10):
sexual abuse of multiple femaleinmates in 2014.
An officer in Florida wasconvicted of bribery in 2015.
The officer accepted money frominmates in exchange for
contraband.
Correction officer CharlesStocker was charged with aiding
and abetting drug trafficking in2017.
The officer is accused ofproviding details of ongoing
(20:34):
investigations by the local drugtask force to drug dealers.
Correction officer in Floridawas charged with false
statements to federalinvestigators in 2015.
This officer was verbally andvisually recorded discussing
past monetary exchanges withinmates for contraband, and the
officer denied any discussionsever.
Past monetary exchanges withinmates for contraband and the
officer denied any discussionsever occurred like that with
(20:55):
inmates.
And then correction officerHarold Walby of Florida was
convicted of the identity theftof several inmates occurring
between 2010 and 2012.
The officer kept records ofseveral inmates and used the
information to file false taxreturns.
That's not one that occurred tome.
It was identity theft andstealing a personal
(21:19):
identification like that.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
I mean it's something you don't think of, but after
hearing it it kind of becomesobvious, because these are the
people who open your mail andread your stuff before you can
get it.
I mean they type your name intoan information portal right
there on a computer and yourname, your date of birth, your
(21:44):
social security number andeverything is right there in
your jacket that's what we callit on inside your jacket, I mean
they know when you're gettingout, they know how long you've
been in.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
So I mean pretty much it tells them everything they
can get away with and how longthey got.
I mentioned sexual abuse.
I think we should stop andpause and talk a little bit
about that.
And pause and talk a little bitabout that.
And I know you've got a PrisonPolicy Institute article that
talks about sexual victimizationin prisons.
But really the sexual abuse ofinmates has had significant
(22:23):
attention within the last 20years because of the Prison Rape
Elimination Act of 2003.
And that act required thatcomprehensive policies be
implemented and enforced by allcorrection facilities at every
level.
And Congress found that it isan inmate's civil right to be
free of any form of sexual abuseby another inmate as well as a
(22:47):
correctional staff.
And I think that that secondpart of that clause is actually
the one that's less highlighted.
Everybody assumes, I mean, wehear the don't drop the soap, I
feel like kind of jokes aboutincarceration a lot and
perpetuated by media, but theprevalence at which corrections
(23:12):
officers are sexually abusingincarcerated people is
staggering.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, you know, when stuff like this is first
implemented, there is, on theshort end, an era of overdoing
it.
And I remember when Priya firstcame really heavily into the
joint and it was so big thatthey installed alarms.
(23:52):
Like when you enter the block,there was this place.
You had to scan your badge andfor female officers it would
like alarm.
You know sirens with lights andeverything would go off saying
hey and a female's entering thebuilding.
So you know, if you don't havea shirt on, you have to put on a
shirt.
If you're in a shower, you haveto make sure, like you know,
shirt on, you have to put on ashirt.
If you're in a shower, you haveto make sure, like you know,
the curtains closed, whatever,like you could not in any way be
(24:14):
um inappropriate around afemale.
Um and even on, like staff andinmates alike, like there was no
room for you to be overheard,um saying anything like sexually
derogative, you calling anybodya punk, a fag, like anything
like that, like demeaning onhomosexuality, like you would
(24:37):
find yourself back in court.
There was no wiggle room and um, I remember like seeing how
angry some of the ceos because Imean they would sit there and
talk about this stuff openly allday, and it basically became
like like nobody, everybody wasafraid to say anything wrong,
(24:58):
you know, um, and nobody wantedto work with some of the female
officers that would come inthere.
It was really kind of a weirdtime, um, but now that it's
leveled out, you know it'sactually doing what it's meant
to do and protect everybody, youknow.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, and you know the numbers on this.
I think it's hard to kind ofget these reports in some way
that you know how many folks inprison and jail systems are
actually experiencing this.
The Prison Policy Institutearticle I was referencing had
(25:36):
some prevalent statistics, but Iknow that they're a little bit
older, from about 2010.
And so it talked about anestimated 4.4% of prison inmates
and 3.1% of jail inmatesreported experiencing one or
more incidences of sexualvictimization by another inmate
(25:57):
or facility staff.
Specifically, regardingfacility staff, they said that
about 2.8% of prison inmates and2.0% of jail inmates had sexual
contact or sex with staff, andmost of those were
non-incidencies of willingness.
(26:17):
And I thought it was alsoreally important to highlight
that sexual activity withfacility staff was reported more
by male prisoners than femaleprisoners, by almost a percent
in both prison and in jail.
(26:45):
So I think those statistics,which they seem small right 2.1,
2.0, 4% is about 88,000.
So that's 88,000 people who arehaving unwanted sexual contact
in circumstances that theycannot control or leave.
That's the other component thatI think gets really overlooked.
(27:06):
When we're thinking about thisis like, oh, 4%, 3%, 2%.
But these are folks who are inenvironments where they can't
just leave their perpetrator.
They can't just go home, theycan't, but also they can't
report that in a way in whichthey're confident that something
(27:27):
will be done about it.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Right, um, when it comes to reporting something
like that, or even just um,trying to resist, um, you have
to remember that this is aperson who has total control
over you.
You know, this is a person who,during their shift, could make
your life a living hell.
(27:49):
Um, I've said it before and Iwas not exaggerating If a CEO
came up to you and they werelike hey, strip butt naked right
here, I don't care if you're inthe hallway, I don't care if
you're in the middle of chowhall, they're like hey, strip
naked.
If they say they have anyreason of suspicion or whatever,
they can cook up anything.
They can have 10 COs rightthere surrounding you stripping
(28:12):
you butt naked in front ofeverybody.
Oh sorry, um, so yeah, they canhave.
You know, 10 COs right theresurrounding you stripping you
butt naked in front of everybody.
Um, and, like I said, in prisonthere's a thing called a rule 21
, which is the most used ruleinfraction, disobedience of a
(28:33):
direct order.
A rule 21 is something that youhave to comply with and then
report later in order to fightit.
Stupid, right?
So simply by saying no, I'm notgoing to do that means you're
going to be met with, you knowforce.
Those CEOs are going to show up.
(28:55):
You know they're going to notask any questions.
They're going to apply as muchforce as they need to need to
for you to comply.
And then, after all of that,who's going to listen to you?
you know, but at the same timeit's like if you have to degrade
yourself or whatever, um, andalso like, even if it doesn't
get to that level, you simplysay no and that staff member
(29:19):
feels some type of way like theycan change your um, they can
change your duty assignment,like.
I had it one time where and Imean mean it didn't involve
sexual anything but, um, justout of spite, my duty assignment
was changed from student tocleaning the toilets, like, and
the unit manager wasn't in thatday, they weren't going to be
(29:42):
back for three days.
So it's like, who do I talk toyou?
Speaker 2 (29:44):
know right, there's nobody to rectify that or
advocate or go to bat for you.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
It's just like you're you're stuck yeah, and I even
explained like hey, man, like Igot finals going on, I gotta do
this college, college work.
And they were like no, I don'tcare nothing about that.
Like go clean these showers andthen tell me when you're done,
because I got some more work foryou and I had no contact with
this dude prior to that.
Really, it wasn't even too muchout of spite.
It was because somebody had gotcaught smuggling some
(30:15):
contraband in and he just neededit done.
He picked the first person andwhen I said no, then he got mad,
so yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
And I think I mean, I know you've got a friend
currently going through some ofthis.
You know a friend currentlygoing through some of this.
You know, let me use myauthority to put you in a
position type of stuff going onright now, but I think that
that's the, that's the highlightof these, both of these
episodes.
It's here I am in a positionthat holds weight, value,
(30:46):
authority, and just because Ican, here are things I'm going
to do to debase, to humiliate,to dehumanize somebody else and
that, to me, I don't know.
I can't imagine feeling like Ihave that position of power over
(31:07):
another human being, and Ithink that goes back to well,
sometimes incarcerated peoplearen't seen as human beings,
they are seen as less thanbecause of um, like, like using,
oh, they committed a crime orthey got sentenced to jail or
prison is now an excuse to treatsomebody horribly yeah, and
(31:31):
don't get me wrong, like I've,in previous episodes talked
about your crime, you know yourcrime.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
There are levels to.
You know how you're treated inprison based off of what crime
you've committed.
And you know, unfortunately,sexually based crimes are at the
bottom.
And you know, unfortunately,sexually based crimes are at the
bottom.
You know, if you have a crimeagainst a child or a sex case or
a crime against the elderly,most times inmates will you know
(32:01):
they'll be violent towards you.
They'll, like, totallyostracize you.
But a lot of times the staff dotoo, ostracize you, um, but a
lot of times the staff do too,um, and there are even staff who
have like they're cool withgroups of inmates and they'll
come over and tell a group ofinmates like yo, this dude's in
here for whatever, like I don'twant him.
(32:22):
You know I don't want himaround my desk, I don't want him
this and that.
Like y'all handle it like.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
That happens regularly, you know um, sorry,
was that a loss there?
I am processing this.
I don't know it's.
It's hard for me to wrap myhead around and that's why, you
know, when this um, when theoriginal law enforcement story
(32:50):
came up, I was like we got totalk about this because, um,
utilizing a position to, I don'tknow, enforce rule over
somebody else has always beenreally hard for me to kind of
grapple with and understand.
Um, and how we can rank people,uh, is another thing that's, I
(33:11):
think, challenging to me.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah, I mean, but that doesn't just happen on the
inside, we do that out here,yeah.
Which is why I think thispodcast is really so important
and in the beginning I said itlike I want to bridge the gap
between the community and theincarcerated people is because
from out here in society, all wethink about is a bunch of
(33:35):
people who committed crimes andare on the other side of the
fence.
We don't think about who thosepeople are, the lives they have
and what they mean to theirfamilies and people.
On the outside, all we say iswhat a murderer, what a drug
dealer, what a child abuser, youknow, whatever it is like.
(33:57):
We literally define them by thecrimes they were convicted of,
not even realizing thecircumstances or the fact that
some of them are innocent.
I'm not advocating sayingeverybody in prison is innocent.
I'm just saying that's how weview prisons, not only because
(34:18):
of our ignorance, but alsobecause of pop culture.
So when you think about whatactually goes on on the inside,
it's not just a bunch of guyslifting weights and fucking each
other in the shower.
That's not what it is.
It's literally people trying tolive their life day by day
until they have hope ofcontinuing in a different light.
(34:41):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yeah, I think another component of this misconduct
thing that's important tohighlight is we have this
perceived mentality ofincarcerated individuals.
Exactly what you're just sayingof misconduct allegations
doubled and then between 2010and 2020, it doubled again, and
(35:20):
I don't think that that'sprobably because more folks are
speaking out.
I think it's probably becausemore incidences are happening,
Even with things like theintroduction of the Prison Rape
Elimination Act, I feel.
Well, I mean, we also have tocontrol, for the amount of
people in prison is increasingas well within those two decades
too, so it's hard to know whatthat is.
(35:42):
But when you have over 60% ofmisconduct allegations resulting
in suspension for thecorrections officer that the
allegations made against, thenwe have a problem with how we
are handling misconductallegations on the inside and
(36:04):
with training and with I don'tknow.
I can't imagine that it's aneasy job with I don't know.
I can't imagine that it's aneasy job.
I can't imagine it's a fun timeto be a corrections officer,
but I also can't imagine takingthat position and then, you know
, feeling within some period oftime that I need to commit some
(36:25):
level of misconduct to the pointwhere I have to be suspended
from my job because there's somelevel of truth to it.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I think on some levels, it might be related to
groupthink.
For those of you who don't knowwhat groupthink is, it's a
psychological term based onbasically losing yourself in the
crowd.
Uh, the individual loses a lotof their cognitive, cognitive,
(36:54):
uh individuality and just goeswith the flow of the crowd.
A lot of people do a lot ofthings that is not
characteristic of themselves, um, in large crowds, and so I
think that that may be oneaspect of it.
Um, and another aspect is, umyou know, I talked about this
(37:14):
before too A lot of timesprisons are built in small
communities, um rural areas, or,you know, small developing
towns, or formerly developedtowns, you know, um industrial
towns and stuff like that.
So, being that it's in a smalltown, sometimes the people from
(37:35):
that community end upincarcerated in there, and it's
very hard, I imagine, to be a COin there and see the guy who
beat up your sister, you know,or you know, see the girl who,
you know, stole somebody in yourfamily's credit card
information and victimized them,or something like that.
(37:55):
Like, if you see them, how doyou then like not retaliate,
especially if you're one ofthose people who is in charge of
a large group of inmates andyou say hey, if you guys do
something, this person you know,I'll give you x, y and z
benefits.
That happens too yeah um, I, Iwas actually um in a group like
(38:21):
that I wouldn't call it a group,but uh, there was a ceo that I
actually got cool with and, um,you know, he was actually from
that city and knew a lot of guysfrom that city that he grew up
with, that were incarceratedwith, and he would give us
information all the time and askfor favors all the time.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
How did you feel about it then?
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Back then, gotta gotta, um, be honest, man, I was
a different person and backthen I was just looking about.
You know what's in it for me,and so I mean, I did things you
know, and it's hard because,looking at it from a different
(39:05):
mind state back then, I couldalways say like I didn't do
anything too bad.
But looking at it from who I amnow, I'm like I would never do
that nowadays.
So it's it's really hard tolook back on it and say with
objectivity how bad it was.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Well, I won't have you dwell on it too long.
How about that?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I've had encounters with staff members, I've had
female staff approach me andstuff.
It's a part of doing time.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
I didn't know if you were going to talk about that or
not yeah, I told her about italready.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Um, I won't go into too much detail, but I mean it
definitely happens.
And back then, you know, I wasuh, 20 years old, so it was very
flattering and something tobrag on, you know.
And you know you're thinking inyour head like man, I ain't
gonna hit the streets foranother.
At the time I was like I aingoing to hit the streets for
(40:09):
another.
At the time I was like I ain'tgoing to hit the streets for
another eight years, sure.
But uh, yeah, I mean it.
It it's kind of like being akid and having, like you know,
like a high school kid, having ateacher hit on him or something
.
Yeah, it seems cool.
At the time you don't realizejust how big of a deal and
inappropriate it is and how muchof a power vacuum you're in.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Yeah, yeah, well, thanks for sharing no problem I
wasn't sure.
I didn't know if you were goingto talk about it or not.
I wasn't going to force you to.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Uh, you know I saw you kept looking at me what's
that supposed to mean?
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I'm, we're recording again I'm looking over at you
because we're talking all right,but that's the past and now
we're in the here and now,looking ahead to the future and
now I'm a hater, I'm an advocate.
That's hating on somebody's runwell I think that, um, you just
don't know what you don't knowright.
(41:10):
And so, um, even when I wasreading some of these briefs uh,
particularly about sexualvictimization um, some folks
within that survey talked abouthow, at the time, it was, I mean
, they would have considered itconsensual and then, as they
were able to reflect on it later, they were like, oh it, it
(41:32):
wasn't really like.
I just, I guess it was at thetime because I said the word but
it didn't feel like I had achoice.
So there's a layer in therethat I don't think people have
the ability to really thinkthrough in the moment.
But when you get to step awayfrom it and look back, there's
(41:53):
always new perceptions orperspectives.
What did you call that?
You taught me this termHindsight bias.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Hindsight bias, yeah, and according to Ohio law, a
person of authority, especiallyin a position of like a
corrections officer or staffmember, like they, have such
control over you that it isimpossible for you to give
consent in that situation.
According to Ohio law, that'srelevant, that's important, yeah
(42:24):
, so I don't care if you werethe one that approached them, if
they consented and went throughwith it.
It's still on them like it's.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
It's impossible that feels fair, because exactly what
we're talking about is thispower differential.
Somebody here has more rightsthan the other person here.
It's really clear cut who thatis within the scenario.
So, according to Federal Bureauof Prisons, there are three
types of classifications formisconduct if an allegation is
(42:54):
made, and so those fall withinthree tiers of severity.
Classification one does includePREA, which you talked about
earlier and how that kind oftook over as soon as it was
introduced, so it doesn'tsurprise me that falls within
category one, which is the mostsevere.
But also physical assault,bribery, theft over $100,000.
(43:15):
That seems high.
Drug trafficking, falsestatements, facilitating escape
and aiding and abetting criminalactivity with inmates is a tier
one classification.
Tier two is physical threats,off-duty, felony misconduct and
misuse of government property,and tier three includes abusive
language, not following policyproperly, off-duty, misdemeanor
(43:40):
misconduct and use of alcoholand drugs while on duty.
It's a tier three.
Some of those were surprising tome, and so there's not a lot of
descriptive policy about whatfalls within that, but those are
the three specific categoriesthat folks can fall into.
We did talk a little bit abouthow much misconduct happens and
(44:05):
what it results in.
I mentioned that over 60% ofallocations lead to at least one
day suspension.
That was a number as of 2014.
We're obviously 10 years.
We're 10 years from 2014.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Okay, don't say that, don't say that out loud that
aloud.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Sorry that hurt me out loud to do that quick math
feelings man um, so that numberis a little bit outdated.
I don't know where we are now,but that still seems high for 10
years ago uh over 60 percentleading to a one day at least
one day suspension.
Um, and in that same year, therewere 34 arrests made of
(44:44):
corrections officers because ofmisconduct that consisted of
illegal activity by the FBI.
So the issue is existing right.
I think it's important enoughto highlight and say it's
happening, because if these arethe numbers that are being
actually reported and we'vealready talked about the cameras
(45:07):
, we've talked about theadvocacy and being able to get a
hold of the video or of therecording or of the statements
that aren't redacted so if theseare the things that people are
able to get a hold of, it'sresulting in this what else is
happening behind closed doorsthat we don't know?
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Right, and you know, when it comes to reporting and
you're talking about an instanceof misconduct like sexual
misconduct or contraband,smuggling or something like that
, um, or even abusive languageand stuff, you got to remember
the reluctance of people toreport it.
Um, if you thought it was badout here in the free world for
(45:51):
people to report stuff like this, I mean, and there is so much
worse because, um, for a longtime you had to report it to the
people that are committing theproblems.
I mean we, we.
You mentioned the term kite.
You know we would have to go tothe CEO and say, hey, can I
have a kite?
We would have to writeeverything that we wanted to
(46:15):
report on this kite and give itback to the CEO for them to put
it in the mailbox.
And so it's like, why would Ieven waste my time to report
that, you know, um, when it'snot going to go anywhere, like
it might not even make it to themailroom, you know?
So, like I said, um, thosenumbers are kind of staggering,
(46:37):
I mean when you look at it morein depth, but they also reflect
that the majority of it goesunreported.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
And so I want to kind of wrap with the what do we do
about it?
So what?
And I think that in a lot ofthe pieces that you and I read
to kind of prepare and talkabout this, they talked about
like ethical leadership andsupervision, and I think that
those recommendations are great,right, that having active
(47:09):
management and havingintentional one-on-ones and
doing preventative or proactiveretention and prevention
strategies are important, but Idon't know that that's
necessarily effective.
I think that Colonel DavidParrish of Hillsborough County
Sheriff's Office in Tampa putsit really well.
(47:30):
He says you can have all thestandard operating procedures in
the world, but you actuallyhave to follow them, and so you
can put all of these things inplace.
But if whoever is in chargeisn't following said procedure,
or if it's an expectation that,or like if everybody within the
(47:51):
unit or within the facilityknows that you know the colonel
is going to, you know, be fine,the major is going to do
whatever the captain's got this,be fine, the major's gonna do
whatever the captain's got this,like.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
I mean, I feel like that if there's an understanding
that these are just it's kindof like pirates of the caribbean
, like these are just guidelines, not rules, um that it doesn't
necessarily change the cultureyeah, um, I like to piggyback
that kind of and um, I think agood solution would be just a
periodic reminder on the staff'spart of what their mission is,
(48:25):
you know their mission statement, because I think the day-to-day
operations just go off of thatculture you mentioned and that
whole like this is a brotherhood, us against them mentality, and
not like a reminder of like howmany lives are we changing in a
positive way, how many peopleare we, you know, getting ready
to return to the population, andyou know, and are they ready,
(48:49):
are they equipped to succeed,type thing.
I think if we reframed it inthat way it would go like so far
.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
And I think yeah, I think it's exactly that this
positive reframe, I think isimportant and I think that you
and I talk about this all thetime.
We've mentioned it on thispodcast more than once that um,
at least in ohio, it's thedepartment of rehabilitation and
correction, right like, but therehabilitation is the um
leading thing.
It's we are here to help.
(49:20):
We are here to help somebodyget back home, not like we are
babysitters of the worst of theworst or like those kinds of
things that often get um,perpetuated and internalized
because, depending on thementality of the folks in charge
, uh, dictates a lot of what thepractice is of those in charge
(49:40):
as well charge uh, dictates alot of what the practice is of
those in charge as well.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Yeah, I mean, but it also, um, it affects the people
that are being supervised also.
Um, if I'm incarcerated and Iknow that the people in charge
look down on me, then everythingabout the way I'm doing my time
is like man, fuck them, becauseif it was them, it'd be fuck me
right.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Yeah, those are good points too.
The last note I'll make is thata lot of what is up against
change is also union.
So a lot of corrections areunionized and unions are harder
to penetrate, right, becausethey have lawyers and a lot of
(50:27):
advocacy and you have to appeasethe union, and so a lot of
states are taking those thingson.
They are putting other thingsin place.
Specifically, new York, theytook on the corrections union
Union in 2016, and kind ofhelped change that contract to
better benefit the people thatcorrections officers serve,
(50:48):
which are incarcerated folks.
They serve them and I thinkthat that's a part of that
reframing that we were talkingabout just a minute ago.
And so a lot of the prison, theprison's legal services in New
York, said changing the sceneisn't just about identifying bad
actors, it's not just about thegrievances, it's about how do
(51:11):
they get substantiated and howare these things tracked from
facility to facility and how dowe actually penalize that so
that things change?
And how do we actually penalizethat so that things change?
Because if you file a grievance, it gets substantiated but
nothing happens as an outcome,then it's not an effective
system anyway.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
And so they worked with the union on that and were
able to see some change withinthe state.
I think in that regard, bydoing that and by holding the
bad apples accountable, I thinkit opens up the door to attract
a better, higher quality.
What's the word I'm looking for?
Not talent, but like a employee.
Right, you know like it kind ofgoes back to like when you were
(51:54):
in like elementary and middleschool.
Like you wanted to grow up tobe a cop and you admire them,
you know.
And then you grew up and youfound out what it was really
like and all the dickheads andbullies in school became cops.
It's like well damn.
But if we go back to that olderyou know more, um like hold
them to a higher regard, thenyou will start, you know,
(52:16):
attracting the good guys againwho actually sign up to be
police officers and correctionofficers to serve the greater
good.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
And a lot of this is also infrastructure and I think
that's important.
We recognize that it's hard toattract the best and brightest
talent when you don't have anymoney to pay them.
We know that CEOs don't makegood salaries, at least in our
state.
I imagine that that's probablytrue in a lot of places.
So it's hard to bring in thebest when you can't pay the best
(52:45):
.
And we also know the shortageof COs that exist right now.
We have heard from Wise andfrom Warren about how lack of
staff has changed theirday-to-day life, because it
dictates what they are andaren't allowed to do, because
they can't go out to the yard ifthere's no staff to go out with
them or like those kinds ofpieces.
So we fully recognize theinfrastructure too, and it kind
(53:06):
of just goes back to this ageold cart before the horse type
of thing.
Do you change the policy firstor do you hire the people first,
like what has to come first, sothat things change?
So we fully recognize that, butI think it's possible.
I think it's possible.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
Anything's possible, babe.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
Thank you, and I had another thing, but now I lost it
.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Snooze you lose.
I'll take the time to highlightsomething that I think is
actually I thought was kind ofweird.
But as I thought on it a littlemore, I kind of see, like in
this context of thisconversation, the value of it.
In one of our Warren's wisdomepisodes Warren talked about how
(53:59):
in the normalcy block block thestaff and the inmates call each
other by their first names andat first I was like that's not a
little weird.
I mean, even warren said, likeyou know, coming up to a ceo
like hey, joe, you know it'slike it's kind of weird.
Um, I've even been on the phonewith him while like a ceo walked
(54:21):
pass and he said something tohim.
I thought he was talking toanother inmate.
I was like dude, that is, it'sweird man.
But it kind of aligns with thename of the project which is the
normalcy block.
Um, and when you have that kindof a peer toer respect for each
(54:42):
other from the CO and theinmate, I mean of course the
inmate has earned that right.
They're not just giving it, butI mean it goes a long way from
both sides for them showingrespect for each other and
respect is one of the componentsof being a good supervisor,
yeah, and respect is one of thecomponents of being a good
(55:02):
supervisor.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it, as
CEOs are supervisors ofincarcerated folks, like that.
They're the employee, and soit's not to say that power
differentials don't exist in oureveryday life.
They're built into ourcorporate lives, and I mean,
like almost every job's got asupervisor right, like, unless
you're working for yourself, um,somebody who's got a boss, or
(55:25):
everybody's got a boss, um, butthere are ways to frame that
relationship so that it doesn'thave to be negative, um, and I
think that's a perfect place toend it as a possibility or a
sense of hope as to where we cango next.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
Yeah, that sort of aligns with bridging that gap.
You know, building bridges, allright.
Well, thank you everybody fortuning in Once again.
As stated earlier, we will betaking a hiatus at the end of
this month, the end of April.
As stated earlier, we will betaking a hiatus at the end of
(56:02):
this month, the end of April,and we will keep you guys
updated and give you more infoas it comes in about the outlook
and prospect of that.
But before that ever happens,man, I feel like I really got to
give my thanks to you guys forsticking with us this long and
all the feedback and support.
You know, tuning in with usweekly.
I really appreciate it and Ilove you very much for that, and
(56:26):
I'm hoping that when we comeback we'll have even more good
features and it'll be a lot morestreamlined, so that on your
end and our end, we can all getthe most out of it.
So with that, peace, bye.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a
part of the Buzzsprout PodcastCommunity Network.
Lockdown to Legacy is recordedat Cohatch in their lovely
audiophile room.
Thanks for your scholarship.
Audio engineering is done byour very own Remy Jones.
You can reach us with anyfeedback, questions, comments or
share the love by emailingstories at lockdown2legacycom.
(57:12):
Stories at lockdown2legacycom.
You can reach out there too fora free sticker, and you can
find us on Instagram and Twitterwith the handle at
Lockdown2Legacy and on Facebookat the Lockdown2Legacy podcast.
Thanks for listening, thank you.
Welcome to Lockdown to Legacy stories from the
inside out.
I'm your host, remy Jones.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I am co-host Debbie Jones.
We're a husband and wife teamhere to bring you the real life
stories, experiences andquestions around the American
criminal justice system.
We do advise discretion withthis podcast.
I think we should put that outthere first and foremost.
Yes, we are going to talk aboutexperiences that happen inside
the prison system, outside ofprison systems.
(00:46):
We will use language that mightbe offensive, but we intend to
keep it real.
And if that's not for you, wetotally understand, but please
do what's best for yourlistening ears.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh, we about to keep it real, son.
Our goal of this podcast is toshare the inside realities of
the American prison and criminaljustice system, from
pre-charges all the way topost-release, from the voices of
those who've experienced itfirsthand, including me.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
That's right, let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode
of Lockdown to Legacy.
I am your host, Remy Jones.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And I am your co-host , Debbie Jones.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Come on, you gotta say it.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
What.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
The beautiful, the talented.
You can say it about yourselfbrag on yourself the beautiful,
talented, smart andawe-inspiring debbie jones, aka
dj.
Please don't call her deej.
We'll fight all right.
Um, before we get too up toofar off into this, I owe you all
(02:04):
an apology.
I had some personal stuff goingon in life and I dropped the
ball in scheduling in all thedifferent arenas.
So I am a new coach of somefive and under kids for soccer
and I mean, can I publicly sayit's not been the best?
You've only had one practice.
How are you going to say that?
And I mean, can I publicly sayit's not been?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
the best.
You've only had one practice.
How are you going to say that?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Because that one practice made me question
everything about my life.
But you know, hey, it's been.
I'm waiting on it to berewarding.
I think it will be good.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
It'll be fun.
It was the first one.
They were just excited.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, and you know I'm thinking of some new stuff.
Got some new plans as far aspractices go and I can't wait
for the first game.
It is going to be epic to seethese little kids scrambling
around with nothing but thebright, shiny ball to chase.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
They don't know how to score a goal.
They don't know how to kick aball.
They don't know how to kick aball.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
When it happens, it's going to be big.
It should be Someone's going toget it to roll in that net.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Hilarious.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And they're going to cheer and I'm going to be proud,
Mm-hmm.
So other than that, on updates,you know things are pretty
chill.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
We've got a vacation next week, which is exciting.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
That's what I was going to say.
Vacation going to Philly.
We got any Philly listeners?
Please tap in, hit us up onsocial media, give us some
suggestions of what we shouldlook at.
Remember, we need something, alittle balance.
You know, I'm from the hood.
I want to see something, atleast one thing ratchet, but I
prefer to stay safe.
Also, I don't need any of that.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I want the history and the museums and the places
to eat.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, and I ain't talking about Whataburger, you
got anything like that.
Keep it off the list.
I'm talking about bougie eating.
All right, all right.
Other other updates, otherupdates, other updates.
Um, working hard on thatdissertation it's been some late
nights burning that, uh, whatthey call it, the midnight oil I
(04:17):
think that's the phrase.
Yeah, yeah but progress,progress is happening.
I'm proud, I'm proud of you.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Thank you.
It's a labor of love.
I think it's a baby.
It's a lot of work so I guessso.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, it's just like a baby.
You're going to cry sometimes.
You're probably going to cryfor no reason, you don't even
know why.
But at the end I'm going to betaking them pictures of you
holding them little plaques andstuff.
I'm ready?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
you're just ready for it to be over?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I think I mean I'm about just as ready as you are,
but you know I'm gonna do itwith a smile.
I'm gonna do it with a smile,um other than that we are
getting ready for spring youknow, if any of you guys know
what ohio uh spring is like,it's uh winter, you know, with
uh and tornadoes.
A couple warm days, we've hadsome really bad tornadoes, um,
(05:14):
some of them have affected ourfamily, um, but we've been very
fortunate that the majority ofit has not.
But, um, you know, our heartsand condolences go out to the
places around us that were hitvery hard.
There have been some casualtiesand a lot of damage.
So I mean, if you guys couldlook up some organizations to
(05:39):
donate to that are helping outwith the relief, that'd be great
.
I don't think I have any that Ican post in the links right now
.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Check out your local United Way chapters.
They are leading a lot of theeffort, as well as the emergency
management agencies, EMA orFEMA, F-E-M-A of the state of
Ohio.
They are all kind of leadingthe charge.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
That's why I keep you baby, that's why I keep you
close.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Got all the official stuff.
Man Happy to help andcontribute in that way.
And lastly, we will announcethis again at the end, but we've
got a pretty big announcement,right.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
For sure it's.
I don't know, depending on howyou look at it good news, bad
news, whatever but in the end,in the grand scheme of things, I
think it's going to be a verypositive thing for the podcast.
And that thing is we are goingto go on hiatus, more like
(06:39):
changing the format of it.
So you know, a lot of podcastsdo seasons and we were thinking
that that would be a good thingto do.
Give us time to kind of getahead, mass record some stuff
and not be so pressed to fiteverything into this schedule.
You know, remember we got fourkids.
We're working full-time jobs,going to school and other things
(07:03):
, but this is something that wedefinitely love doing and don't
want to give up on, and Idefinitely don't want to
half-ass you either.
So it'll give me a chance toput those good ideas that I've
been mentioning into theproduction line and we're going
to come back bigger and better.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
And so you will continue to hear from us until
the end of this month, so thatit's not a disruption to your
normal listening.
So don't expect that today's it, and then you're never going to
hear from us again.
We're not going to ghost youlike that.
So you'll hear from us untilthe end of April, regular
Fridays, like normal, and thenwe will announce weekly.
(07:46):
You'll get this repetition andreminder and we will be putting
out when our new season willdrop after that, but my guess is
it will be sometime midsummer.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, also, it's not going to be a total radio
silence.
We're still going to be activeon social media.
So, um, I'll still be makingperiodic posts there and, uh,
giving you guys updates on theupcoming additions to new
features to the podcast.
So if you guys still want toengage with us that way, I
(08:19):
strongly recommend it and I willbe so happy.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
And our ask of you in the interim is please write in
your questions, particularly forWarren and Wise.
That's an episode that we arereally hoping to put together
and we want some more questionsfor that.
So if you've been thinking of,what does this look like in
(08:44):
prison?
What does this look like?
How does everybody go to thebathroom?
That's usually the big one,right Like, how does this stuff
happen?
Like, if you want to know thosethings, no question is off of
the table.
They are willing to answer.
Remy, of course, is alsowilling to contribute his
knowledge, past experiences, tothat conversation.
But send us a kite.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, oh, that was a good one, thank you.
Also, when it comes to Warrenand Wise, these guys have been
laying their hearts out there,man.
They have even expressedinterest in you guys right now,
and so if you have questionsregarding, like, what was like
life like before prison, whatled to, you know, prison, or the
(09:28):
current circumstances, or whatthey've been doing in the
meantime to better prepare forcoming home, like, I think
they'd be very receptive to that.
So, like I said, whateverwithin reason, you know, just
try to be respectful about it.
And I mean those guys will loveto, you know, shower you with
(09:49):
their stories, with theirinsights, you know, and they
love it just as much as we do.
They have expressed theirgratitude for the people who
have sent word to them, you know, and, in general, just for
having this platform.
So I'm glad that we could dothat, and they are too.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
And so you can submit those questions to us formally
via email at stories atlockdown2legacycom, or you can
send those to us via message.
Of course, we do have socialmedia platforms.
We are active on Facebook,Instagram, Twitter and Facebook
Messenger.
Yes, you can message us on anyof those and also the big one.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
One of the additions that I kept talking about is our
website, which I would like totake the time to shout out
lockdowntolegacycom.
There is a place where you cangive your shout out and it will
be submitted directly to us, andso that is one of the things
that I would like to stronglyencourage you to take the time
(10:55):
to visit.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Great.
Any other updates from your end.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Nah.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
All right.
Well, let's take a break andthen we're going to get into it.
The following episode of thelockdown to legacy podcast
features language we don't oftenuse in other episodes, and so
(11:23):
we wanted to provide appropriatewarning.
Within this episode, we talkabout instances of physical
violence, sexual assault andvictimization, and potentially
harmful language out of context.
Viewer discretion is advised.
So our topic tonight is a parttwo of an episode we did a
couple weeks ago about the abuseof power.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yep.
So we talked about the abuse ofpower on the side of law
enforcement, as in, you know,police officers and that type of
thing, but the mostlyoverlooked arm of the law is
corrections officers.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
And we alluded to this a little bit within that
episode that corrections is alittle bit harder to patrol, and
so this is going to come up alittle bit more.
You know, law enforcement hasits pitfalls in terms of how
things get enforced, whatreviews look like, what's
available to the public, butcorrections is a little bit even
more of a mystery, because westill have a lot of privatized
(12:24):
institutions within the prisonsystem and while these private
institutions are slowly, veryslowly going away, they still
exist.
And so, as a generalunderstanding, what we're
talking about tonight ismisconduct.
We are going to talk about it,but we're talking about
(12:45):
misconduct from this standpointof.
This is an intentional abuse ofauthority, an intentional
taking of a position of power,right of a power, differential
power dynamic and using it toone's advantage.
(13:05):
And the population we're talkingabout specifically is those who
are incarcerated.
So misconduct, by legaldictionary definition, is any
unlawful conduct on the part ofa person concerned in the
administration of justice whichis prejudicial to the rights of
parties.
So when we're thinking aboutthis misconduct, this can be
(13:30):
lots of different types of abuseor neglect that happens towards
incarcerated folks in lots ofdifferent ways.
According to the Black LawDictionary, abuse is cruelty
that causes harm to another.
I think we can think of abusepretty broadly, and with
incarcerated folks this tends toshow up in physical, sexual,
(13:52):
emotional, psychological orneglectful ways.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yes, and we're not just talking about in men's
prison, we're also referring towomen's prison and juvenile
detention facilities.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
They're also referring to women's prison and
juvenile detention facilitiesand what's interesting and a
little bit sad is the prevalenceof correctional officer
misconduct.
It's hard to kind of get thisdata.
I looked on Prison PolicyInstitute and the Marshall
Project and Sentencing Projectand lots of other places that
(14:27):
really do these briefings, thatkind of put the data out there
and even within those reallywell vetted evidence, you know
informed type of places who dothis work daily, they were like
this is a hard one to put afinger to because it's so swept
under the rug to put a finger to, because it's so um swept under
(14:47):
the rug and each institutionhas its own kind of review
process and policies associatedand what's released to the
public is um nil right, heavilyredacted.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
um, as many of you know, like the freedom of
information act is the main toolthat is used to police, the
police.
Whenever there's body camfootage, whenever there's police
reports, you know you file aFreedom of Information Act
request to get that footage orinformation or whatever, so that
(15:19):
it can be viewed by the public.
When it comes to corrections,it's not so easily gained, like
even with a Freedom ofInformation Act request.
It's like they really don'thave to abide by that because of
security issues.
And that's the first thing theyquote is like no, we can't show
you that security footagebecause it reveals the exact
(15:44):
location of security cameras,what cameras are active and what
cameras are decoys and suchthings as that.
So a lot of times there isfootage and they refuse to
release it, and that makes itreally hard, especially as
someone on the inside who'sfighting for justice.
(16:05):
It makes it hard for us on theoutside fighting for justice.
But if you don't have anybodyon the outside to fight for you,
you're pretty much just screwedif you're on the inside.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, and that's unfortunate, and that's a point
that's going to come up againand again as we talk is this
notion that if something wrongis happening to you, who do you
then report that to, if theperson who is quote unquote in
charge of you is the one beingunlawful towards you in some
(16:36):
regard?
So how do you then report thisincident of happening or this
pattern of abuse happening?
If this person is in a positionof authority over you, and with
incarcerated folks, it's as ifeverybody is in a position
that's better than you.
You're looked at as nobodyright.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Right.
I think a lot of us have seeninstances where there have been
officers that becamewhistleblowers, where they have
stopped a fellow officer fromcommitting some type of wrong or
they have reported on thatofficer doing that wrong and
(17:19):
then they were severelyblackballed and punished
afterwards.
Yeah, and that is the same forcorrections.
I even have a personal instancewhere I was sent to the hole
and there was the lady thatwrote the ticket on me got
another CO who was pretty racist, openly racist, to back her
(17:43):
story.
That was a lie, pretty racistand openly racist to back her
story.
That was a lie.
And another CEO came and wrotea statement for me on my behalf
saying that they witnessed whathappened.
So the original lady who wroteme up got fired, but not too
long after that the lady whowrote a statement on me on my
behalf actually got fired also.
(18:04):
So it's it's really hard to,like I said, even when you're on
the inside, you're trying tofigure out who can I get to come
to my my you know my side tohelp and you get somebody who
wants to do the right thing andthen they immediately get them
out of there.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Um.
We also had a um.
What was he Major who wasdemoted?
They said he was too inmatefriendly.
So, it happens, and it reallyhappens, no matter what height
you rise to within thathierarchy.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, and I have a little.
I think I have a few examplesof those coming up towards the
end that I want to talk about,because I always try to leave
some policy recommendation, butpolicy is hard when there is no
infrastructure to support it.
So we can kind of dissect thata little bit closer to the end.
But I wanted to kind of givesome examples and of course,
(19:04):
remy, you can add your ownpersonal stories to this,
because I'm sure the things youhave seen parallel this or, you
know, exacerbate this further.
So these are some examples oftypes of misconduct as reported
by the Federal Bureau ofInvestigations.
So they are correction officerPaul Tillis of Florida was
(19:27):
convicted of intentionallypouring, scalding hot water on
an inmate and refusing medicalassistance for the injury which
occurred.
That was in 2005.
Another correction officer herein Ohio, actually Seth Bunke,
was convicted of kicking aninmate repeatedly in the face
and head.
I probably should have put atrauma warning at the beginning
of this.
(19:47):
So if you made it through thosetwo, my apologies.
Some of these are going to be alittle bit trigger warning ish
Um.
Correction officer in New Mexicowas convicted of sexual abuse
of a female inmate in 2010.
As you can imagine that'sreally common and it's going to
come up um within this episodetoo.
Corrections officer inWisconsin was convicted of
(20:10):
sexual abuse of multiple femaleinmates in 2014.
An officer in Florida wasconvicted of bribery in 2015.
The officer accepted money frominmates in exchange for
contraband.
Correction officer CharlesStocker was charged with aiding
and abetting drug trafficking in2017.
The officer is accused ofproviding details of ongoing
(20:34):
investigations by the local drugtask force to drug dealers.
Correction officer in Floridawas charged with false
statements to federalinvestigators in 2015.
This officer was verbally andvisually recorded discussing
past monetary exchanges withinmates for contraband, and the
officer denied any discussionsever.
Past monetary exchanges withinmates for contraband and the
officer denied any discussionsever occurred like that with
(20:55):
inmates.
And then correction officerHarold Walby of Florida was
convicted of the identity theftof several inmates occurring
between 2010 and 2012.
The officer kept records ofseveral inmates and used the
information to file false taxreturns.
That's not one that occurred tome.
It was identity theft andstealing a personal
(21:19):
identification like that.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
I mean it's something you don't think of, but after
hearing it it kind of becomesobvious, because these are the
people who open your mail andread your stuff before you can
get it.
I mean they type your name intoan information portal right
there on a computer and yourname, your date of birth, your
(21:44):
social security number andeverything is right there in
your jacket that's what we callit on inside your jacket, I mean
they know when you're gettingout, they know how long you've
been in.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
So I mean pretty much it tells them everything they
can get away with and how longthey got.
I mentioned sexual abuse.
I think we should stop andpause and talk a little bit
about that.
And pause and talk a little bitabout that.
And I know you've got a PrisonPolicy Institute article that
talks about sexual victimizationin prisons.
But really the sexual abuse ofinmates has had significant
(22:23):
attention within the last 20years because of the Prison Rape
Elimination Act of 2003.
And that act required thatcomprehensive policies be
implemented and enforced by allcorrection facilities at every
level.
And Congress found that it isan inmate's civil right to be
free of any form of sexual abuseby another inmate as well as a
(22:47):
correctional staff.
And I think that that secondpart of that clause is actually
the one that's less highlighted.
Everybody assumes, I mean, wehear the don't drop the soap, I
feel like kind of jokes aboutincarceration a lot and
perpetuated by media, but theprevalence at which corrections
(23:12):
officers are sexually abusingincarcerated people is
staggering.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, you know, when stuff like this is first
implemented, there is, on theshort end, an era of overdoing
it.
And I remember when Priya firstcame really heavily into the
joint and it was so big thatthey installed alarms.
(23:52):
Like when you enter the block,there was this place.
You had to scan your badge andfor female officers it would
like alarm.
You know sirens with lights andeverything would go off saying
hey and a female's entering thebuilding.
So you know, if you don't havea shirt on, you have to put on a
shirt.
If you're in a shower, you haveto make sure, like you know,
shirt on, you have to put on ashirt.
If you're in a shower, you haveto make sure, like you know,
the curtains closed, whatever,like you could not in any way be
(24:14):
um inappropriate around afemale.
Um and even on, like staff andinmates alike, like there was no
room for you to be overheard,um saying anything like sexually
derogative, you calling anybodya punk, a fag, like anything
like that, like demeaning onhomosexuality, like you would
(24:37):
find yourself back in court.
There was no wiggle room and um, I remember like seeing how
angry some of the ceos because Imean they would sit there and
talk about this stuff openly allday, and it basically became
like like nobody, everybody wasafraid to say anything wrong,
(24:58):
you know, um, and nobody wantedto work with some of the female
officers that would come inthere.
It was really kind of a weirdtime, um, but now that it's
leveled out, you know it'sactually doing what it's meant
to do and protect everybody, youknow.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, and you know the numbers on this.
I think it's hard to kind ofget these reports in some way
that you know how many folks inprison and jail systems are
actually experiencing this.
The Prison Policy Institutearticle I was referencing had
(25:36):
some prevalent statistics, but Iknow that they're a little bit
older, from about 2010.
And so it talked about anestimated 4.4% of prison inmates
and 3.1% of jail inmatesreported experiencing one or
more incidences of sexualvictimization by another inmate
(25:57):
or facility staff.
Specifically, regardingfacility staff, they said that
about 2.8% of prison inmates and2.0% of jail inmates had sexual
contact or sex with staff, andmost of those were
non-incidencies of willingness.
(26:17):
And I thought it was alsoreally important to highlight
that sexual activity withfacility staff was reported more
by male prisoners than femaleprisoners, by almost a percent
in both prison and in jail.
(26:45):
So I think those statistics,which they seem small right 2.1,
2.0, 4% is about 88,000.
So that's 88,000 people who arehaving unwanted sexual contact
in circumstances that theycannot control or leave.
That's the other component thatI think gets really overlooked.
(27:06):
When we're thinking about thisis like, oh, 4%, 3%, 2%.
But these are folks who are inenvironments where they can't
just leave their perpetrator.
They can't just go home, theycan't, but also they can't
report that in a way in whichthey're confident that something
(27:27):
will be done about it.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Right, um, when it comes to reporting something
like that, or even just um,trying to resist, um, you have
to remember that this is aperson who has total control
over you.
You know, this is a person who,during their shift, could make
your life a living hell.
(27:49):
Um, I've said it before and Iwas not exaggerating If a CEO
came up to you and they werelike hey, strip butt naked right
here, I don't care if you're inthe hallway, I don't care if
you're in the middle of chowhall, they're like hey, strip
naked.
If they say they have anyreason of suspicion or whatever,
they can cook up anything.
They can have 10 COs rightthere surrounding you stripping
(28:12):
you butt naked in front ofeverybody.
Oh sorry, um, so yeah, they canhave.
You know, 10 COs right theresurrounding you stripping you
butt naked in front of everybody.
Um, and, like I said, in prisonthere's a thing called a rule 21
, which is the most used ruleinfraction, disobedience of a
(28:33):
direct order.
A rule 21 is something that youhave to comply with and then
report later in order to fightit.
Stupid, right?
So simply by saying no, I'm notgoing to do that means you're
going to be met with, you knowforce.
Those CEOs are going to show up.
(28:55):
You know they're going to notask any questions.
They're going to apply as muchforce as they need to need to
for you to comply.
And then, after all of that,who's going to listen to you?
you know, but at the same timeit's like if you have to degrade
yourself or whatever, um, andalso like, even if it doesn't
get to that level, you simplysay no and that staff member
(29:19):
feels some type of way like theycan change your um, they can
change your duty assignment,like.
I had it one time where and Imean mean it didn't involve
sexual anything but, um, justout of spite, my duty assignment
was changed from student tocleaning the toilets, like, and
the unit manager wasn't in thatday, they weren't going to be
(29:42):
back for three days.
So it's like, who do I talk toyou?
Speaker 2 (29:44):
know right, there's nobody to rectify that or
advocate or go to bat for you.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
It's just like you're you're stuck yeah, and I even
explained like hey, man, like Igot finals going on, I gotta do
this college, college work.
And they were like no, I don'tcare nothing about that.
Like go clean these showers andthen tell me when you're done,
because I got some more work foryou and I had no contact with
this dude prior to that.
Really, it wasn't even too muchout of spite.
It was because somebody had gotcaught smuggling some
(30:15):
contraband in and he just neededit done.
He picked the first person andwhen I said no, then he got mad,
so yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
And I think I mean, I know you've got a friend
currently going through some ofthis.
You know a friend currentlygoing through some of this.
You know, let me use myauthority to put you in a
position type of stuff going onright now, but I think that
that's the, that's the highlightof these, both of these
episodes.
It's here I am in a positionthat holds weight, value,
(30:46):
authority, and just because Ican, here are things I'm going
to do to debase, to humiliate,to dehumanize somebody else and
that, to me, I don't know.
I can't imagine feeling like Ihave that position of power over
(31:07):
another human being, and Ithink that goes back to well,
sometimes incarcerated peoplearen't seen as human beings,
they are seen as less thanbecause of um, like, like using,
oh, they committed a crime orthey got sentenced to jail or
prison is now an excuse to treatsomebody horribly yeah, and
(31:31):
don't get me wrong, like I've,in previous episodes talked
about your crime, you know yourcrime.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
There are levels to.
You know how you're treated inprison based off of what crime
you've committed.
And you know, unfortunately,sexually based crimes are at the
bottom.
And you know, unfortunately,sexually based crimes are at the
bottom.
You know, if you have a crimeagainst a child or a sex case or
a crime against the elderly,most times inmates will you know
(32:01):
they'll be violent towards you.
They'll, like, totallyostracize you.
But a lot of times the staff dotoo, ostracize you, um, but a
lot of times the staff do too,um, and there are even staff who
have like they're cool withgroups of inmates and they'll
come over and tell a group ofinmates like yo, this dude's in
here for whatever, like I don'twant him.
(32:22):
You know I don't want himaround my desk, I don't want him
this and that.
Like y'all handle it like.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
That happens regularly, you know um, sorry,
was that a loss there?
I am processing this.
I don't know it's.
It's hard for me to wrap myhead around and that's why, you
know, when this um, when theoriginal law enforcement story
(32:50):
came up, I was like we got totalk about this because, um,
utilizing a position to, I don'tknow, enforce rule over
somebody else has always beenreally hard for me to kind of
grapple with and understand.
Um, and how we can rank people,uh, is another thing that's, I
(33:11):
think, challenging to me.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah, I mean, but that doesn't just happen on the
inside, we do that out here,yeah.
Which is why I think thispodcast is really so important
and in the beginning I said itlike I want to bridge the gap
between the community and theincarcerated people is because
from out here in society, all wethink about is a bunch of
(33:35):
people who committed crimes andare on the other side of the
fence.
We don't think about who thosepeople are, the lives they have
and what they mean to theirfamilies and people.
On the outside, all we say iswhat a murderer, what a drug
dealer, what a child abuser, youknow, whatever it is like.
(33:57):
We literally define them by thecrimes they were convicted of,
not even realizing thecircumstances or the fact that
some of them are innocent.
I'm not advocating sayingeverybody in prison is innocent.
I'm just saying that's how weview prisons, not only because
(34:18):
of our ignorance, but alsobecause of pop culture.
So when you think about whatactually goes on on the inside,
it's not just a bunch of guyslifting weights and fucking each
other in the shower.
That's not what it is.
It's literally people trying tolive their life day by day
until they have hope ofcontinuing in a different light.
(34:41):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yeah, I think another component of this misconduct
thing that's important tohighlight is we have this
perceived mentality ofincarcerated individuals.
Exactly what you're just sayingof misconduct allegations
doubled and then between 2010and 2020, it doubled again, and
(35:20):
I don't think that that'sprobably because more folks are
speaking out.
I think it's probably becausemore incidences are happening,
Even with things like theintroduction of the Prison Rape
Elimination Act, I feel.
Well, I mean, we also have tocontrol, for the amount of
people in prison is increasingas well within those two decades
too, so it's hard to know whatthat is.
(35:42):
But when you have over 60% ofmisconduct allegations resulting
in suspension for thecorrections officer that the
allegations made against, thenwe have a problem with how we
are handling misconductallegations on the inside and
(36:04):
with training and with I don'tknow.
I can't imagine that it's aneasy job with I don't know.
I can't imagine that it's aneasy job.
I can't imagine it's a fun timeto be a corrections officer,
but I also can't imagine takingthat position and then, you know
, feeling within some period oftime that I need to commit some
(36:25):
level of misconduct to the pointwhere I have to be suspended
from my job because there's somelevel of truth to it.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I think on some levels, it might be related to
groupthink.
For those of you who don't knowwhat groupthink is, it's a
psychological term based onbasically losing yourself in the
crowd.
Uh, the individual loses a lotof their cognitive, cognitive,
(36:54):
uh individuality and just goeswith the flow of the crowd.
A lot of people do a lot ofthings that is not
characteristic of themselves, um, in large crowds, and so I
think that that may be oneaspect of it.
Um, and another aspect is, umyou know, I talked about this
(37:14):
before too A lot of timesprisons are built in small
communities, um rural areas, or,you know, small developing
towns, or formerly developedtowns, you know, um industrial
towns and stuff like that.
So, being that it's in a smalltown, sometimes the people from
(37:35):
that community end upincarcerated in there, and it's
very hard, I imagine, to be a COin there and see the guy who
beat up your sister, you know,or you know, see the girl who,
you know, stole somebody in yourfamily's credit card
information and victimized them,or something like that.
(37:55):
Like, if you see them, how doyou then like not retaliate,
especially if you're one ofthose people who is in charge of
a large group of inmates andyou say hey, if you guys do
something, this person you know,I'll give you x, y and z
benefits.
That happens too yeah um, I, Iwas actually um in a group like
(38:21):
that I wouldn't call it a group,but uh, there was a ceo that I
actually got cool with and, um,you know, he was actually from
that city and knew a lot of guysfrom that city that he grew up
with, that were incarceratedwith, and he would give us
information all the time and askfor favors all the time.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
How did you feel about it then?
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Back then, gotta gotta, um, be honest, man, I was
a different person and backthen I was just looking about.
You know what's in it for me,and so I mean, I did things you
know, and it's hard because,looking at it from a different
(39:05):
mind state back then, I couldalways say like I didn't do
anything too bad.
But looking at it from who I amnow, I'm like I would never do
that nowadays.
So it's it's really hard tolook back on it and say with
objectivity how bad it was.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Well, I won't have you dwell on it too long.
How about that?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I've had encounters with staff members, I've had
female staff approach me andstuff.
It's a part of doing time.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
I didn't know if you were going to talk about that or
not yeah, I told her about italready.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Um, I won't go into too much detail, but I mean it
definitely happens.
And back then, you know, I wasuh, 20 years old, so it was very
flattering and something tobrag on, you know.
And you know you're thinking inyour head like man, I ain't
gonna hit the streets foranother.
At the time I was like I aingoing to hit the streets for
(40:09):
another.
At the time I was like I ain'tgoing to hit the streets for
another eight years, sure.
But uh, yeah, I mean it.
It it's kind of like being akid and having, like you know,
like a high school kid, having ateacher hit on him or something
.
Yeah, it seems cool.
At the time you don't realizejust how big of a deal and
inappropriate it is and how muchof a power vacuum you're in.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Yeah, yeah, well, thanks for sharing no problem I
wasn't sure.
I didn't know if you were goingto talk about it or not.
I wasn't going to force you to.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Uh, you know I saw you kept looking at me what's
that supposed to mean?
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I'm, we're recording again I'm looking over at you
because we're talking all right,but that's the past and now
we're in the here and now,looking ahead to the future and
now I'm a hater, I'm an advocate.
That's hating on somebody's runwell I think that, um, you just
don't know what you don't knowright.
(41:10):
And so, um, even when I wasreading some of these briefs uh,
particularly about sexualvictimization um, some folks
within that survey talked abouthow, at the time, it was, I mean
, they would have considered itconsensual and then, as they
were able to reflect on it later, they were like, oh it, it
(41:32):
wasn't really like.
I just, I guess it was at thetime because I said the word but
it didn't feel like I had achoice.
So there's a layer in therethat I don't think people have
the ability to really thinkthrough in the moment.
But when you get to step awayfrom it and look back, there's
(41:53):
always new perceptions orperspectives.
What did you call that?
You taught me this termHindsight bias.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Hindsight bias, yeah, and according to Ohio law, a
person of authority, especiallyin a position of like a
corrections officer or staffmember, like they, have such
control over you that it isimpossible for you to give
consent in that situation.
According to Ohio law, that'srelevant, that's important, yeah
(42:24):
, so I don't care if you werethe one that approached them, if
they consented and went throughwith it.
It's still on them like it's.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
It's impossible that feels fair, because exactly what
we're talking about is thispower differential.
Somebody here has more rightsthan the other person here.
It's really clear cut who thatis within the scenario.
So, according to Federal Bureauof Prisons, there are three
types of classifications formisconduct if an allegation is
(42:54):
made, and so those fall withinthree tiers of severity.
Classification one does includePREA, which you talked about
earlier and how that kind oftook over as soon as it was
introduced, so it doesn'tsurprise me that falls within
category one, which is the mostsevere.
But also physical assault,bribery, theft over $100,000.
(43:15):
That seems high.
Drug trafficking, falsestatements, facilitating escape
and aiding and abetting criminalactivity with inmates is a tier
one classification.
Tier two is physical threats,off-duty, felony misconduct and
misuse of government property,and tier three includes abusive
language, not following policyproperly, off-duty, misdemeanor
(43:40):
misconduct and use of alcoholand drugs while on duty.
It's a tier three.
Some of those were surprising tome, and so there's not a lot of
descriptive policy about whatfalls within that, but those are
the three specific categoriesthat folks can fall into.
We did talk a little bit abouthow much misconduct happens and
(44:05):
what it results in.
I mentioned that over 60% ofallocations lead to at least one
day suspension.
That was a number as of 2014.
We're obviously 10 years.
We're 10 years from 2014.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Okay, don't say that, don't say that out loud that
aloud.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Sorry that hurt me out loud to do that quick math
feelings man um, so that numberis a little bit outdated.
I don't know where we are now,but that still seems high for 10
years ago uh over 60 percentleading to a one day at least
one day suspension.
Um, and in that same year, therewere 34 arrests made of
(44:44):
corrections officers because ofmisconduct that consisted of
illegal activity by the FBI.
So the issue is existing right.
I think it's important enoughto highlight and say it's
happening, because if these arethe numbers that are being
actually reported and we'vealready talked about the cameras
(45:07):
, we've talked about theadvocacy and being able to get a
hold of the video or of therecording or of the statements
that aren't redacted so if theseare the things that people are
able to get a hold of, it'sresulting in this what else is
happening behind closed doorsthat we don't know?
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Right, and you know, when it comes to reporting and
you're talking about an instanceof misconduct like sexual
misconduct or contraband,smuggling or something like that
, um, or even abusive languageand stuff, you got to remember
the reluctance of people toreport it.
Um, if you thought it was badout here in the free world for
(45:51):
people to report stuff like this, I mean, and there is so much
worse because, um, for a longtime you had to report it to the
people that are committing theproblems.
I mean we, we.
You mentioned the term kite.
You know we would have to go tothe CEO and say, hey, can I
have a kite?
We would have to writeeverything that we wanted to
(46:15):
report on this kite and give itback to the CEO for them to put
it in the mailbox.
And so it's like, why would Ieven waste my time to report
that, you know, um, when it'snot going to go anywhere, like
it might not even make it to themailroom, you know?
So, like I said, um, thosenumbers are kind of staggering,
(46:37):
I mean when you look at it morein depth, but they also reflect
that the majority of it goesunreported.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
And so I want to kind of wrap with the what do we do
about it?
So what?
And I think that in a lot ofthe pieces that you and I read
to kind of prepare and talkabout this, they talked about
like ethical leadership andsupervision, and I think that
those recommendations are great,right, that having active
(47:09):
management and havingintentional one-on-ones and
doing preventative or proactiveretention and prevention
strategies are important, but Idon't know that that's
necessarily effective.
I think that Colonel DavidParrish of Hillsborough County
Sheriff's Office in Tampa putsit really well.
(47:30):
He says you can have all thestandard operating procedures in
the world, but you actuallyhave to follow them, and so you
can put all of these things inplace.
But if whoever is in chargeisn't following said procedure,
or if it's an expectation that,or like if everybody within the
(47:51):
unit or within the facilityknows that you know the colonel
is going to, you know, be fine,the major is going to do
whatever the captain's got this,be fine, the major's gonna do
whatever the captain's got this,like.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
I mean, I feel like that if there's an understanding
that these are just it's kindof like pirates of the caribbean
, like these are just guidelines, not rules, um that it doesn't
necessarily change the cultureyeah, um, I like to piggyback
that kind of and um, I think agood solution would be just a
periodic reminder on the staff'spart of what their mission is,
(48:25):
you know their mission statement, because I think the day-to-day
operations just go off of thatculture you mentioned and that
whole like this is a brotherhood, us against them mentality, and
not like a reminder of like howmany lives are we changing in a
positive way, how many peopleare we, you know, getting ready
to return to the population, andyou know, and are they ready,
(48:49):
are they equipped to succeed,type thing.
I think if we reframed it inthat way it would go like so far
.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
And I think yeah, I think it's exactly that this
positive reframe, I think isimportant and I think that you
and I talk about this all thetime.
We've mentioned it on thispodcast more than once that um,
at least in ohio, it's thedepartment of rehabilitation and
correction, right like, but therehabilitation is the um
leading thing.
It's we are here to help.
(49:20):
We are here to help somebodyget back home, not like we are
babysitters of the worst of theworst or like those kinds of
things that often get um,perpetuated and internalized
because, depending on thementality of the folks in charge
, uh, dictates a lot of what thepractice is of those in charge
(49:40):
as well charge uh, dictates alot of what the practice is of
those in charge as well.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Yeah, I mean, but it also, um, it affects the people
that are being supervised also.
Um, if I'm incarcerated and Iknow that the people in charge
look down on me, then everythingabout the way I'm doing my time
is like man, fuck them, becauseif it was them, it'd be fuck me
right.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Yeah, those are good points too.
The last note I'll make is thata lot of what is up against
change is also union.
So a lot of corrections areunionized and unions are harder
to penetrate, right, becausethey have lawyers and a lot of
(50:27):
advocacy and you have to appeasethe union, and so a lot of
states are taking those thingson.
They are putting other thingsin place.
Specifically, new York, theytook on the corrections union
Union in 2016, and kind ofhelped change that contract to
better benefit the people thatcorrections officers serve,
(50:48):
which are incarcerated folks.
They serve them and I thinkthat that's a part of that
reframing that we were talkingabout just a minute ago.
And so a lot of the prison, theprison's legal services in New
York, said changing the sceneisn't just about identifying bad
actors, it's not just about thegrievances, it's about how do
(51:11):
they get substantiated and howare these things tracked from
facility to facility and how dowe actually penalize that so
that things change?
And how do we actually penalizethat so that things change?
Because if you file a grievance, it gets substantiated but
nothing happens as an outcome,then it's not an effective
system anyway.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
And so they worked with the union on that and were
able to see some change withinthe state.
I think in that regard, bydoing that and by holding the
bad apples accountable, I thinkit opens up the door to attract
a better, higher quality.
What's the word I'm looking for?
Not talent, but like a employee.
Right, you know like it kind ofgoes back to like when you were
(51:54):
in like elementary and middleschool.
Like you wanted to grow up tobe a cop and you admire them,
you know.
And then you grew up and youfound out what it was really
like and all the dickheads andbullies in school became cops.
It's like well damn.
But if we go back to that olderyou know more, um like hold
them to a higher regard, thenyou will start, you know,
(52:16):
attracting the good guys againwho actually sign up to be
police officers and correctionofficers to serve the greater
good.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
And a lot of this is also infrastructure and I think
that's important.
We recognize that it's hard toattract the best and brightest
talent when you don't have anymoney to pay them.
We know that CEOs don't makegood salaries, at least in our
state.
I imagine that that's probablytrue in a lot of places.
So it's hard to bring in thebest when you can't pay the best
(52:45):
.
And we also know the shortageof COs that exist right now.
We have heard from Wise andfrom Warren about how lack of
staff has changed theirday-to-day life, because it
dictates what they are andaren't allowed to do, because
they can't go out to the yard ifthere's no staff to go out with
them or like those kinds ofpieces.
So we fully recognize theinfrastructure too, and it kind
(53:06):
of just goes back to this ageold cart before the horse type
of thing.
Do you change the policy firstor do you hire the people first,
like what has to come first, sothat things change?
So we fully recognize that, butI think it's possible.
I think it's possible.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
Anything's possible, babe.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
Thank you, and I had another thing, but now I lost it
.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Snooze you lose.
I'll take the time to highlightsomething that I think is
actually I thought was kind ofweird.
But as I thought on it a littlemore, I kind of see, like in
this context of thisconversation, the value of it.
In one of our Warren's wisdomepisodes Warren talked about how
(53:59):
in the normalcy block block thestaff and the inmates call each
other by their first names andat first I was like that's not a
little weird.
I mean, even warren said, likeyou know, coming up to a ceo
like hey, joe, you know it'slike it's kind of weird.
Um, I've even been on the phonewith him while like a ceo walked
(54:21):
pass and he said something tohim.
I thought he was talking toanother inmate.
I was like dude, that is, it'sweird man.
But it kind of aligns with thename of the project which is the
normalcy block.
Um, and when you have that kindof a peer toer respect for each
(54:42):
other from the CO and theinmate, I mean of course the
inmate has earned that right.
They're not just giving it, butI mean it goes a long way from
both sides for them showingrespect for each other and
respect is one of the componentsof being a good supervisor,
yeah, and respect is one of thecomponents of being a good
(55:02):
supervisor.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it, as
CEOs are supervisors ofincarcerated folks, like that.
They're the employee, and soit's not to say that power
differentials don't exist in oureveryday life.
They're built into ourcorporate lives, and I mean,
like almost every job's got asupervisor right, like, unless
you're working for yourself, um,somebody who's got a boss, or
(55:25):
everybody's got a boss, um, butthere are ways to frame that
relationship so that it doesn'thave to be negative, um, and I
think that's a perfect place toend it as a possibility or a
sense of hope as to where we cango next.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
Yeah, that sort of aligns with bridging that gap.
You know, building bridges, allright.
Well, thank you everybody fortuning in Once again.
As stated earlier, we will betaking a hiatus at the end of
this month, the end of April.
As stated earlier, we will betaking a hiatus at the end of
(56:02):
this month, the end of April,and we will keep you guys
updated and give you more infoas it comes in about the outlook
and prospect of that.
But before that ever happens,man, I feel like I really got to
give my thanks to you guys forsticking with us this long and
all the feedback and support.
You know, tuning in with usweekly.
I really appreciate it and Ilove you very much for that, and
(56:26):
I'm hoping that when we comeback we'll have even more good
features and it'll be a lot morestreamlined, so that on your
end and our end, we can all getthe most out of it.
So with that, peace, bye.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a
part of the Buzzsprout PodcastCommunity Network.
Lockdown to Legacy is recordedat Cohatch in their lovely
audiophile room.
Thanks for your scholarship.
Audio engineering is done byour very own Remy Jones.
You can reach us with anyfeedback, questions, comments or
share the love by emailingstories at lockdown2legacycom.
(57:12):
Stories at lockdown2legacycom.
You can reach out there too fora free sticker, and you can
find us on Instagram and Twitterwith the handle at
Lockdown2Legacy and on Facebookat the Lockdown2Legacy podcast.
Thanks for listening, thank you.
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