April 16, 2025 • 47 mins
Coming home is only the beginning.
In this heartfelt continuation of our conversation on metaphorical scars, Remie and Debbie sit down together to talk honestly about what healing looks like from both sides of the reentry experience. Remie shares what it's like to live with Post-Incarceration Syndrome and the lingering emotional wounds of survival. Debbie offers the perspective of a partner learning how to love without control, hold space without losing herself, and navigate her own growth edges along the way.
This episode explores the tools they've learned, the rituals they’ve created, and the laughter that now anchors their healing journey. It’s about choosing connection over correction—and legacy over shame.
🗣️ “The scars used to lead the way. Now, they ride in the back seat.”
🗣️ “Love without tools will wear you out.”
Whether you’ve come home or you’re loving someone who has—this episode is for you.
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Also, check out the folks who got us together:
Music by: FiyahStartahz
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Cover art by: Timeless Acrylics
https://www.facebook.com/geremy.woods.94
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey y'all, welcome back to another episode of
Lockdown to Legacy, where wespeak truth, share stories and
build bridges betweenincarceration and healing.
I am your co-host, debbie Jones, and today's episode is a
continuation of a conversationthat really struck a chord with
so many of you.
And I'm not here alone.
Remy's here with me.
He's not just a co-host, but mypartner in life and healing,
(00:21):
and he's here to share hisperspectives the real, the raw
and the firsthand.
Do you want to say hi, mr Jones?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hey, what's up?
Everybody Glad to be back.
And yeah, this one was personal, because when people talk about
coming home, they usually onlytalk about the freedom aspect.
But it's not always just aboutthat.
It's about what it feels liketo come home and still be
carrying the prison in yournervous system or in your sleep,
or even in your silence.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Right.
So if you're new to us thisweek, I encourage you to hit
pause here and go back to mysolo soad this last week, where
we broke down what metaphoricalscars are.
So in part one, we talked aboutthose invisible wounds that
incarceration leaves behind, andI will be referring to those
throughout, kind of as thosemetaphorical scars.
We explored how those scarsshow up in the body, in
(01:11):
relationships, in the dailyrhythms of post-prison life, but
that healing isn't a one-waystreet.
It's something we do inrelationship and with each other
.
So it was important for me tobring Remy back this week so
that we could do this togetherand go a little bit deeper.
So this is the part two.
If you hadn't listened to partone, you can jump in here too,
(01:32):
but I just encourage you to goback if you want some extra tips
and some more context andhistory with that.
So in the Scars we Carry, it'snot just about the person who
served time.
It's about the people who lovethem, who walk beside them and
who are trying to heal too.
Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I am ready.
I'll start here, all right.
So one of the hardest thingsabout being out is realizing
that you're not really out, atleast not always.
I mean you can always findyourself drifting back into
those old habits that you usefor protection, I mean, as
(02:10):
Debbie talked about in this lastepisode.
I mean, sometimes you're justlike entering into an unfamiliar
space and the people just thepresence of a large group of
people is like superuncomfortable, you know, the
presence of a large group ofpeople is like super
uncomfortable, you know.
Or going out to eat at arestaurant and having to eat
with your back to the wall orfacing the door, you know, I
(02:32):
mean I can honestly say thatsome of this stuff is kind of
like I've kind of done away with.
I don't I don't have to have myback to the wall or or facing
the door anymore.
But I can promise you that I'mvery much aware of everybody
who's coming and going andeverybody who's walking around
me.
So a lot of times I kind offeel guilty like I'm not giving
(02:54):
the people that I'm sitting infront of my full attention,
because my eyes are constantlydarting around.
You know, have you noticed thatabout me?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, that's why I did a whole episode about it.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Oh yeah, yeah, I forgot this is a part two.
So yeah, I mean I don't know ifpeople are dealing with the
paranoia factor.
I personally have some friendswho have dealt with that anxiety
coming home, with the paranoiaand everything.
I mean you got to remember thaton the inside, with the
paranoia and everything.
I mean you got to remember thaton the inside and, to some
(03:28):
degree, before prison.
I don't want to make this allabout prison, because I had a
life before prison that alwaysrequired me to be vigilant and
in my personal life now I stillsee the scars of that.
Like Debbie will tell you, I amthe security conscious person
in the house.
I am always the one that goesaround and locks all the doors
(03:48):
at night.
I'm the one who got us an alarmsystem, just stuff like that.
What do you got?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
No, stay alert, stay live.
I think that that's abiological wired-in factor.
It'll take a long time to undothat, even if you can right.
I think from the oppositeperspective, as somebody who's
watching, that sometimes it isheartbreaking, not because I
want you to just get over it oranything like that, that's not
the mentality but I do want youto feel safe.
(04:20):
So I've had to learn that yoursurvival strategies aren't about
me, like your desire to makesure that every door is locked
and check it twice and is thesecurity system working, and all
of those things are not aboutme.
They're about protection.
But sometimes, I'll be honest,that's hard.
(04:41):
It's hard to, you know, kind ofsee those emotions rear their
head, or it's hard to kind ofask questions or feel like I'm
triggering an entire defensesystem in yourself.
And it's important then for meto do some introspection and
check in with self too, like amI being supportive?
Am I being too much?
How am I helping?
(05:03):
How am I contributing?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
what's inside of my control and outside of my
control.
So I think that that's alwaysthe thing that I'm weighing.
You know, she is the let me dosome research on this subject.
She is the one who brought thispost-incarceration syndrome
into the picture, whereas me,I'm the one who has the lived
experience and that's how Ilearn best how they come off to
(05:36):
other people.
I mean, to be honest, sometimesI don't even care how they come
off to other people.
It's not until the problem isblatant and in front of me that
I say, okay, let me go back andanalyze the situation, which is
how I learned most of my lifelessons.
It's like going back,reflecting on retrospection,
(06:00):
introspection, stuff like thatthat's how I learn.
And to hear you bring all thisstuff in like, hey, here's an
article, hey, there's a like,it's an actual thing.
That's very helpful to me and Ifeel like it could be helpful
to a lot of other people who maybe like me, who are just
bumping all the roadblocks andthe obstacles in the road and
(06:21):
then saying, okay, how can I dothat better next time?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, it's the normalization of it that I think
is important, like it's a realthing.
It's not that you're broken,it's not institutionalized, it's
not any of these other harmfulconnotations, and it's not even
post-traumatic stress disorder,like that's a completely
different thing.
I think that's what wasimportant to me in kind of
bringing this episode togetherand talking about it.
(06:47):
It's been a conversation youand I have had a lot in our
marriage because, like you saidearlier, I don't want to make it
all about prison either.
I've had things to unlearn too.
I've had to stop treating everyconversation like a check-in or
a report, and it was importantto me to learn how to breathe
and pause and listen, not justfix, because these metaphorical
(07:11):
scars are not just yours.
Being the person who holdsspace for that kind of thing is
a pain, but it changes you too.
It stretches your capacity andsome days stretches you to the
edge.
So I think it's important thatwe kind of think through what
that looks like and I appreciatethat we're kind of doing this
episode and being vulnerable andtalking about ourselves and our
(07:32):
relationship to hopefully helpother people too.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, I mean it's great that we have this outlet
to talk because really, like,every episode is kind of like
going to therapy, to be honest,you know, and I get a chance to
really look at what's going onin my life and share that so
that we can all learn from it,not just you guys and me being a
teacher, but me being a learnerand sharing my learning
(07:58):
experience.
So when I think about, and sowhen I think about our
relationship or the relationshipof someone who has these scars
(08:22):
and the person who's, as theperson coming on from prison or,
you know, with the scars, don'tlike to see ourselves as
victims, you know, or or asbeing, you know, hurt or
traumatized or anything likethat, because there's a certain
stigma to it and we feel like,oh, I have to be fixed, but it
(08:44):
is nice to be able to recognize,like man, I've, I've been
through some shit, you know.
You know, like growing up andnow seeing the stuff that I went
through growing up and nowbeing in our relationship and
saying, oh, it's just a culturaldifference.
You know, I say that a lot Likeman.
We just I grew up different,but that's an easy write-off,
(09:08):
you know that's an easywrite-off, so I don't have to
face what it is that I actuallywent through growing up and I
mean there's a lot.
I can't lie man.
I mean at first I thought, ah,there's a couple of things I
could talk about, but to behonest, it goes deep.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, I think that healing is.
It's not just about survivingthe past, it's about building
something different in thepresent.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I mean there's so much to unlearn and relearn, and
there's so many new avenues andbetter ways to handle certain
situations that I've neverthought of, and so I'm glad I
get to do it with you, babe.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah, I will be vulnerable here.
I can share some I've beentrying to call them growth edges
.
That is, some social emotionallearning shifting right.
It's not just a pain point,it's a what am I growing through
?
Shout out to friend of thepodcast, kevin Gilmore that's
his phrase grow through it.
So things that I had to learn isthat love doesn't mean
(10:20):
micromanaging.
I am somebody who I likestructure a little bit less than
you do.
I like routine a little bitless than you.
I'm a more impulsive person butI do like a very organized
house.
I guess I find routine and likeokay, this is what we do at
(10:41):
this time, this is what time thekids go to bed and I'm the
person who knows when all of thethings happen, and sometimes
that comes off as micromanagingand I have had to learn that
that also can then sound likesurveillance and you and I did
that for a long time was talkabout feeling surveilled by
(11:04):
somebody.
So I really had to pause and dosome introspection about like,
am I creating safety or am Irecreating control, and that was
not my aim as a partner.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, like, to be honest, I love routine, like
that is my jam.
But because I did so much timein prison, my routine is pretty
much 24 hours.
If it doesn't fit inside this24 hours, it'll completely throw
me off.
If you start telling me aboutwhat I have to do next week,
(11:38):
next month, six months from now,I'm like, yeah, okay.
And then it will start toapproach and I'll be like, oh
yeah, it's still, you know, amonth out, yeah, okay, all right
, it's still two weeks out, yeah, okay.
But like, if it doesn't fit inmy 24 hours, it'll be 24 hours
away and I'm like, oh shit, Ididn't do that thing, you know?
Um, when it comes to likeroutine, that's how you get
(12:01):
through prison, because if youfocus on the time of I got this
coming up in six months or thiscoming up in two months, like it
just feels so big to go into aprison and say I got 10 years
and oh, I can do this thing infive years, or I can do this
thing in seven years, I could dothis in six months you just
(12:24):
really get the anxiety of thereal situation, you know.
So I think I said this before ina previous episode I threw away
all my calendars.
I threw away I didn't have aclock, I didn't have calendars
or anything.
I see now the disservice that Idid to myself and how I pretty
much broke my frame of timemanagement.
(12:46):
You know, but I did it tosurvive the time.
You know it was hard.
It was a hard thing to.
It's a hard thing.
I can't say it was a hard thing.
It is a hard thing to come backfrom, to go from.
Time doesn't exist to.
I have all this stuff to manageand it's all got to be done at
(13:08):
a certain time.
So I can honestly say, with thesincerest apology I am sorry,
debbie, because I promise I dropthe ball often and I will
continue to.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I'm sorry, but you're doing better, I think, than we
were a few years ago.
Like, I think you're right andI want to go back to
surveillance because, um, thereare a lot of pieces and parts
(13:46):
that uh have time associatedwith them but that make it
really complicated, um, when oneof us is kind of keeping track
of that and the other personisn't able to.
But you've come up with somegood things.
You've got uh whiteboards youare using are using your
calendar on your phone.
Now You've had to learn thosethings right.
(14:07):
So, reminders, you're using thereminders app, but you had to
figure those processes out andthat was important.
Do you want to talk about yourviewpoint of surveillance?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
We've talked about that on the podcast.
I'm sorry, you kept saying thatand I kept kind of ducking it.
Let me move my mic here for asecond.
So, basically, when it came toman that jumped out when you
said it in the episode I waslistening to it as I was driving
I was like, oh, don't even gothere, you know.
But yeah, I had the hardesttime.
(14:44):
And it all started when you werelike hey, let me know when
you're leaving the work.
And I would always be like whyyou know like I get off work
every day of the same day.
Like I said, I'm all about thatroutine in the 24 hours.
So I'm like every day I get offat the same time.
Why do I need to let you know Imean, unless I'm going to be
late why you need to know whenI'm coming home from work.
(15:07):
And then that paranoia startsto come in, like the fuck is she
doing that she needs to knowwhere I'm coming home?
Well, just share your location.
I'm like why do you want toknow where I'm at?
And when I first started, I wasabsolutely against the location
share.
When was absolutely against thelocation sharing?
(15:27):
When I first started it, itimmediately caused like three
arguments.
Because she was like hey, babe,I just saw that you went here
and did this, and so, you know,I just want to make sure
everything was still the same.
And I'm like, what reason didyou have to be tracking me?
You know, instantly aggressiveand defensive and, to be honest,
I'm not one of those guys justlike I like I don't want you
tracking me because I'm doingdirt or anything like that.
(15:48):
I literally go to work, comehome, spend time with my family,
and you know, which is evenmore reason for me not to want
to be tracked I'm like you knowwhere I'm at, I'm at work, where
I'm with you, you know.
But it felt like surveillance.
But it felt like surveillance,it felt like answering to a CO.
(16:08):
If you go to a level threeprison, you are not allowed to
move unless you tell them whereyou're going, unless you have a
valid reason for going there.
You tell them what time you'regoing to be there and when
you're going to get back, and soit was like being in level
three all over again.
Actually, they call level threecontrol movement.
So it was like, man, this isnot what I want to be doing in
(16:33):
my marriage, you know, but thankyou for loving me through it
and being patient.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It was just a lot of conversation, right, like we had
to figure out everybody'smotivations and I think that
that was really important, thatyou had to understand my ask and
I had to understand your why,right, and that took us a long
time.
I think somebody said to meonce who listens to this podcast
(16:59):
.
They were like I don't thinkyou and Remy probably never
argue.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
I was like, oh, you didn't put the business out
there, did you?
I was like, oh yeah, you got areputation to keep in these
streets.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Man, we fight Like, come on now, we disagree on lots
of things.
We've been fighting what thelast two days, I think what, no,
what?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
When?
Come on, I don't know whatshe's talking about.
See, we're about to fight rightnow.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
But I think that we've made progress and come to
center on what those things are.
The other one I was going toask if you would be willing to
talk about is letting people in.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I don't like to let people in.
I think I don't like to letpeople yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I think, and I think that that you know I think it's
changed since I've known you thelast five years.
I think that at the beginningyou really wouldn't ask for help
and wouldn't rely on anybodyever, and I think that there's
still a little bit of that Likeyou don't want to rely on
anybody.
There's still a lot of that.
I'm not even going to frontthat, like you don't want to
rely on anybody, there's still alot of that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I'm not even going to front.
To be honest, between my issueswith time management and
letting people in, I would saythose are my big two, like one
and two factors that I deal withfrom being in prison and before
, like I talked about.
You know you chalk it up to theculture and in Black culture we
(18:25):
have this thing where it's likeno new friends.
You know I'm still here with myday ones, but my thing is I
don't got no day ones, no moreAll my old friends.
I left that in my past life.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
How about our day one podcast listeners though?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Shout out, shout out.
But yeah, so even in ourrelationship, it's like I don't
want to accept too much help.
I've learned to accept it, butI don't want to accept too much
because then it's like I startto feel like I'm not man enough,
you know, to do it on my own.
(19:02):
To be honest, man, we justtalked about this, like
yesterday, two days ago,something like that, where I
would rather fail than accepttoo much help, you know.
But the reality is that indoing a lot of this stuff and
(19:22):
the growth and the rate ofgrowth that we have achieved, a
lot of this stuff is new, youknow.
So I have to learn it while I'mdoing it, or like learn it
quickly enough to then do it ina, in a, you know, short time
frame.
And, you know, sometimes I get,I get overwhelmed and I just
(19:43):
like fuck it if it fail.
It fail like I don't care, I'lldo it whenever.
And that is not debbie, debbielike are you going to do this?
I'm like man, that's my thing,leave me alone.
And, to be honest, man, I thinkthat was just the fear, talking
for real, like the fear ofdisappointment, the fear of
(20:04):
being a burden, the fear ofdepending on somebody who might
leave, or the fear of dependingon somebody and then not being
able to do it without them.
So I mean part of it is provingsomething to somebody else and
then part of it is proving it tomyself.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah, I mean, it's all messy, it's growth, it's
grace it's still happening.
Should we talk about somethings that we found to be
helpful for us in kind ofstarting these conversations
when we realized that triggerswere happening, or how we kind
of overcame our own fears andfrustrations independently and
with each other?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, sure, I know, for me it's been hit or miss.
You know, I I learned thattrying to talk about it when it
happens is, um, sometimes notthe thing to do, but at the same
time, I never like to feel likeI'm bringing up old stuff, you
know.
So, um, what I've learned isit's best to make a designated
(21:10):
time to talk about stuff likethat when other people aren't
around, when you don't got otherstuff going on that you need to
focus on.
You know, we have our nightswhere you know we just play
video games or we go on walks orwhatever, and that's the time
where you can kind of have thatsafe conversation.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I think, as we have learned each other and I think
this is true of everyrelationship, regardless of the
incarceration status right, youhave to learn what it is your
partner needs at a time thatmaybe you don't like them but
you love them, right.
And so that strategy I talkedabout on the last episode was
(21:50):
that co-regulation strategy.
Like how do you calm eachother's nervous system without
even having to say a wordBecause you don't want to lean
heavy into that reason part, youdon't want to lean into the?
Well, how do we fix it?
Why did you do it that way?
How do we do it differently inthe future?
Like, what you need first isjust some time, some presence,
(22:10):
and sometimes you just have tolearn as you go what those
things are.
I know that for me, oftentimes,when you know I'm not having a
great day, you'll just likestart the teapot before I come
home, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Or if it's a night for you to cook, I'll just start
cooking, start prepping,whatever you know anything to
give you a second to yourself.
When it comes to dealing withproblems with each other, kind
of like I said before, like it'snot always the time to talk
about it in the moment I'velearned that sometimes it works
better if we state the issue butnot go into the solution yet,
(22:55):
Because a lot of times it'ssomething that we don't want to
hear, you know.
So it kind of stings, you know.
And so to be like, hey, youknow, earlier, when this thing
happened, you know, it kind ofrubbed me wrong.
I felt like X, y and Z.
But we can leave it at that,you know, because I know if we
(23:16):
try to go into it, it's going tobe a defensive response.
You're going to either justifyit or say why you should get
over it, which is not alwaysthat well, that's not really
ever the best response.
First you need to digest andreflect on the situation that
was stated, you know, and thenlater on be like, hey, listen, I
(23:40):
heard what you said and I cansee how this might be.
Or, you know, maybe we can trythis and then we can have a
conversation about it.
But to be honest, I learned thisfrom saying some stuff the
wrong way, debbie gettingdefensive, and I'm like you,
always getting defensive.
(24:00):
And then debbie come back afterwe did not spoke to each other
all day and be like I'm sorry.
How I responded, you know.
And then also on my side,debbie said some stuff I'm like
man, whatever you know.
But then later on like I'msorry, even before I feel like I
(24:22):
really did something wrong,just like I can't.
I'm one to not want to go to bedangry.
So I'm sorry about whathappened earlier, you know.
But we did that enough to whereit's like maybe we should just
state the issue and not go intoit.
And I mean things got a lotbetter because a little inside
(24:45):
everybody might think we got thebest chemistry.
But there was one point wherewe argued so much Right and we
were kind of fearful of it.
But I mean, luckily it was abrief time and we are so much
better to where we can actuallyembody that, to where people are
like oh, you guys are so greatand we're like we know, you know
(25:08):
.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
No, I think we've had .
I mean, we really have had towork on it, like every couple
does, right, uh, but I think wehave to pay attention to it
differently, given the historiesthat we both have, particularly
like learning what triggers are.
So, again, removing theincarceration status out of it
or putting it in, however youwant to look at it like, we have
to be really intentional as tohow we look and work at things.
(25:31):
Um, and we have, and we have tonot assume that we know what
that's rooted in.
Right, it's not our thing toheal for the other person, but
it is our duty as a partner toshow up and respond.
I have a coworker who likes tosay I'm not.
I can be responsive, but I'mnot responsible.
I can be responsive, but I'mnot responsible, and so I think
(25:53):
it's important within thiscontext that we know we have a
role in helping somebodyregulate.
We have a role in helpingsomebody heal.
It's not our responsibility toget them there.
It's not my responsibility toknow all of your triggers and
figure them out for you so thatI can fix them.
That's not my purpose.
(26:14):
Healing is a self-owned journeythat somebody has to embark on,
but I can be alongside of you.
So I think that here are a fewthings and we can speak to each
one individually.
But here are a few other thingsI think that helped us Walk and
talks.
You kind of spoke to that alittle bit.
There is less pressure andsignificantly more movement.
It helps us regulate and ithelps us talk.
(26:39):
At the same time, we have thebest conversations when we are
doing something physical.
I think I didn't mean that in asex way, I meant like going on
a walk or going to the gym orlike, I think, even driving,
because we're in that parallel.
Well, my big thing.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
The one I love most is cooking together.
Cooking is kind of one of mylove languages and I love it
when we're in the kitchentogether and it's just like two
chopping boards and a couple ofpots and we're going at it and I
mean, you're right, that'sconversations, whether they lead
to resolutions or not.
(27:16):
It's kind of just thatchemistry thing.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
This one.
I don't think that we do verymuch, but I know that it's
really successful with folkswho've experienced incarceration
.
This one actually comes out ofthe Florida Innocence Project
article that we had talked aboutlast week, and they recommend
code words.
They say when a person isfeeling off, you don't explain
it right away which is somethingyou spoke to, remy, but they
use the system like yellow light.
Say yellow light because it'sjust a heads up that you're not
(27:41):
fully okay, but you're trying,and I think that that's kind of
what you were talking aboutearlier.
Like we don't get into theissue, but we at least let a
statement be known that there'sa something right that we would
want to come back to.
So similar but different.
So they suggest this code wordstrategy to kind of help folks
work through that.
Did you want to say somethingthere?
(28:04):
No.
And then shared rituals, whichyou also talked about a little
bit with cooking.
But like we are reallyintentional on Sunday, sunday is
our day together, so we arereally intentional with our time
and how we spend it on Sundays.
We also do things like nophones at dinnertime, just so
that dinner is a shared familyexperience.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, we do a lot of things with our kids at dinner
where we talk about our day,play games and everything like
that.
But another, going back to theSunday ritual, we clean on
Sunday.
Now, sunday is not a day whereyou know it's not the only day
we clean and really it's not alot to clean, but for some
(28:47):
reason just us two cleaning onthat day feels like it's some
type of connection.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Oh, there's a playlist.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, we have a shared playlist.
Debbie told you guys we don'thave much to share in the way of
music, but our shared playlistwe actually have two where you
know we kind of link ouraccounts and we contribute to
them together.
You know it's a nice littlevibe to set that connected tone.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
The Innocence Project also recommends some things
like gratitude check-ins,creating a space of structure
without it feeling likesurveillance, and I think that
you and I build this into ourSundays also.
Right, we have some prettystructured conversations every
Sunday around our finances andwhat's coming up in the week and
those types of things.
But again, it kind of is rooted, intentionally or
(29:37):
unintentionally, in that desirefor us to everybody know what's
coming up, without there being atime management thing for you
to drop the ball on and feelguilty about, right, or then I
know where you are and you knowwhere I am, without it feeling
like surveillance later in theweek, because I can just be like
oh yeah, remy said he was goingto be late because X, y, z.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, I've learned recently, I could say within the
last six months, to recognize.
You said you could beresponsive, but it's not
responsibility, mm-hmm.
But you have to know who you'redealing with.
I used to always say you knowanger.
(30:16):
Well, it was actually a quote.
So I'm into quotes.
Anger is the byproduct of unmetexpectations and we were
expecting stuff of each otherthat was not in our nature.
I mean, it wasn't in the waythat we're built, you know our
nature.
I mean it wasn't in the waythat we're built, you know.
(30:37):
So I had to start recognizingmy own faults.
Kind of I told you guys aboutthe retrospection, the
introspection.
I had to start saying, okay,debbie asked me to do this thing
.
Debbie comes back, sees Ididn't do it.
Debbie does it herself and kindof silently broods about it.
I'm like, hey, I was going todo that.
Now I'm mad, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
I'm nodding my head so hard listener.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, but I've learned to start asking.
When she asked me hey, can youdo this?
When does that need to be doneby?
Because I don't want you to seeme over here playing a video
game or, you know, lollygaggingaround and this thing needs to
be done by noon, when I plannedon doing it at three, you know.
(31:22):
So don't die anymore.
I get it.
And you, hey, sometimes I miss,still Often.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
But, whatever, I think we also are good at
pausing.
That's something that we've hadto learn.
I think a root of a lot of ourconversations is do you want
advice right now, or you justwant me to be present?
Because a lot of times, theanswer is I just want you to
listen.
Right, like, like, I don't wantthe advice.
I already know what I'm goingto do, I already know, you know
what my next steps are, and itwould piss me off, right, like,
(31:58):
if.
And vice versa.
I did the same thing for you Ifyou presented me with something
that was happening and I justjumped in with a solution that
can be triggering, right?
So it was important for us topractice a pause, but it was
equally important for us to seedo you want advice right now, or
you just want me to listen?
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Yeah, I mean, and sometimes I don't want either.
Sometimes I really just wantyour presence, you know.
And on the advice side, there'sbeen times where you're like,
yeah, I want the advice, youdon't get the advice you want.
And Debbie has gotten to thepoint where she'd be like, okay,
(32:36):
I don't want to talk about thisanymore.
And I'm like you invited me tothe conversation, you know.
But I had to recognize and thiswas through previous
conversations that sometimes,like I said, I'm not aware of my
own triggers or whatever I'mgoing through and I don't know
when to quit.
I don't know when's enough'senough.
I'm like, no, we're going totalk about this.
Like, calm down, dude, I'm hereto help.
(32:56):
Why am I so angry, you know?
So, most importantly, we'velearned to pause, we've learned
to ask.
You know, do you want theadvice, do you want the presence
?
And more often than not, theanswer is just the presence.
Right, because most of the timewe're not trying to be fixed,
we just want to feel safe enoughto be seen.
(33:18):
And that's what these littlerituals and rhythms do they
build safety yeah, they're theemotional version of seat belts
not flashy but life-saving oh,we put that on a t-shirt.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Coming up next.
I think we should talk a littlebit about what healing looks
like now and how, even thoughthe scars are still there,
they're no longer leading theway, and how this component of
incarceration doesn't have to besomething that has these
metaphorical collateralsanctions on a day-to-day basis
either.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah.
So let's be real, thosemetaphorical scars, they don't
vanish.
They're still there.
But what's changed is who's incharge, and the scars used to
lead the way.
Now they kind of just ride inthe backseat.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah, that part.
We're not saying healing's done.
I think it's not a finish line,it's more like a rhythm, and
some days we're in sync andother days we find that we are
very offbeat.
Is that the right version?
But we don't give up the dance.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, that is great Now.
I used to think healing wouldfeel like being fixed, like I'd
wake up one day and not bescared or triggered, but that's
not real.
Healing for me has beenrecognizing what my scars are
and how they are showingoutwardly, and choosing not to
(34:46):
let them be in control of my day.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
And I think for me it's making sure that I'm not
making your silence somethingabout me.
It is rarely, if ever, personalis what I tell people.
When I'm doing consulting andcoaching, we look at people's
traumas and responses and we'relike why are they coming at me
that way when it rarely, if ever, has anything to do with you?
(35:09):
It's rarely personal, but welike to internalize that a
little bit and make it feelpersonal, and so it's been
really important for me thathealing has meant not
internalizing those moments andlearning to trust the foundation
that you and I have built.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, Now I would like to pause here and kind of
go back and focus on something.
You know where it's.
Like we say, healing is notlike being fixed.
I always like to tell peoplethat change does not mean that
you have to do away with yourprevious version.
Right, you know, I tell peoplewhen it comes to professional
(35:51):
stuff, when it comes to personalstuff, like I'm very much the
old person that I was Don't getme wrong when it comes to this
context that we're dealing withnow, I also have a lot of scars
from that person still beingthere, from that person still
being there.
But the growth that I've got tothis point is because I've
(36:11):
learned how to use the old mebetter.
You know, I've learned to usewhat I have and, you know,
handle it different or aim it atsomething more positive, Like I
used to have this oldaggression and now I've learned
how to just tame it, use it as atool when necessary.
You know, when it comes toconfronting somebody, Debbie's
(36:35):
not that person.
She's like babe, I need you togo talk to them, Like I got this
.
When it comes to negotiating,I'm like you know, hey, this is
the line.
We're not going to cross thisline let's talk business.
So I don't want you to thinklike man.
You know, this change is sointimidating, Right, Because I
(36:57):
have to change who I am.
That's what makes you start tofeel like you're broken.
Nah, that's not the case.
What we're going to learn issome new skills to cope with
situations, to learn when to bevulnerable to, when to be
aggressive, when to be securityconscious.
You know, because, really, ifyou change the perspective,
(37:18):
these are skills.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Right, that's kind of a trauma.
That's a Dr Perry concept, too.
He talks a lot about liketrauma.
That's a Dr Perry concept too.
He talks a lot about like weoften ask people to change.
We often ask them to stop thesebehaviors that are problematic,
without replacing them withsomething.
So we haven't offered anybodyanything new.
We're just telling them to stopthis thing over here, which
(37:40):
does a discredit to who theyhave been, but we also, then,
are discrediting things thathave kept them safe thus far in
their lives.
So we're asking them tocompletely stop over here and
just do this new thing, andthat's not giving them any
credit for who they've had to bein their lifetime.
And instead we need to pairthose things together Like okay
(38:01):
within this context.
So, for example, you and I'srelationship.
Like so, within my marriage,here are behaviors that are okay
, that I can borrow from my oldself, and here are new ones that
I've had to learn.
Or here are ways that I've hadto do those skills differently,
because this is how I want mymarriage to be.
And look, whereas I might leanmore heavily on those old skill
(38:22):
sets in another context, butwithin this space, that's not
what I need, right, and thosearen't the tools in my toolbox
that I need to take with me forthe job, right.
So it's always great to teachpeople new things, and I think
we've talked a lot about that,this episode of like.
Here are the things that we cando to learn a new skill set and
create something new ormaximize on old things that
(38:43):
we've done, but it's all equallyimportant to give credit to
those skill sets that have keptus safe or alive up until this
point too.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, I mean, we don't need to necessarily change
us, you know.
To put it another way, I guessI could say I don't want you to
hear hey, you're wrong.
You know, like, what you are iswrong, what you're doing is
wrong.
I would rather you hear andaccept it as hey, man, that
(39:16):
could be used as a better like,that's a great quality, but let
me show you how to use it better.
Right, you know to handledifferent situations that may
come at you, so that way youdon't feel like man, I got to
just change everything aboutmyself.
You're like oh man, I can learnsome new coping mechanisms.
I can learn a new perspective,a new way to use this tool.
(39:39):
I mean, if I gave you a hammerand all you knew was hammer and
nails and I was like hey, let meshow you how to use this other
side, it's got a claw on it.
You can take these nails out.
I'm not saying that you have tostop looking at this as a
whacking tool.
I'm saying you can use thissame thing a different way.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Right, exactly right.
Some other things from thesupporter role.
I talked heavily about thesupporter role last week in our
part one episode.
So, again, if that's the roleyou play, like, I do make sure
that you check that episode out,because I think I talk about a
lot of those things in depth.
But for this section, what Iwould say is there are easy
things, language-wise, that youcan do to support, helping, grow
(40:20):
a new skill set.
Again, you can be responsivebut not responsible right For
somebody's change.
So, uh, things like previouslywhen it was important for you to
sit with your back to the wallin the restaurant and have that
safety, um, particularly rightat the beginning, it was
important for me to like, justknow that and just be like hey,
you want to go sit by the wall?
(40:41):
Or hey, uh, tell the hostess,like, can we have a?
Can we have that table overthere?
It didn't have to bring up thething, we didn't have to talk
about it, but it allowed you tobe safe and seen without having
to get back into those triggersand that trauma.
Equally some other phrasesinstead.
Like I mentioned in the lastepisode, that surveillance piece
(41:01):
was really important.
So, instead of like how's yourday.
Where are you going?
What time are you going to beback?
Some of the times, those thingsare appropriate, but instead
it's also important for myselfto just pause and take a breath
and instead say, like, what kindof support do you need today?
Or just let you come home andhave your moment and then talk
(41:22):
to me about your day.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
I've noticed that you often say now, what's your day
look like, instead of being likewhere are you going and what
time?
What's your day look like?
Well, I got this thing to do.
I'm going to go here around 3o'clock.
I got to go do this whatever.
So it's kind of like I knowwhat you expect.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
It's not a secret.
I know what you expect.
Yeah, you know it's not asecret.
I didn't hide it from you.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
I don't have to be like man, why you want my whole
itinerary.
It's like, you know, I got somestuff to do.
I got to go in town, I got togo see this person, that person
do this, whatever, yeah, itworks.
I'm telling you, like, evenwith the thing about sitting
with my back against the wall,like when you started doing it,
(42:08):
I noticed, because at first itwas like you didn't understand
it.
Then it was like, hey, let's goover here.
And I was like, damn, she's noteven going to ask, say nothing
about it.
So it kind of drew attention toit in my head without drawing
attention to it to anybody else,right?
So then it was like, oh yeah,that's a thing that I do.
Maybe I should try somethingnew, you know.
(42:31):
And I started just being like,nah, we can take any table, you
know.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Or sometimes you'll go to the booth first and you
know like I've picked this boothbecause it's like you can sit
to the wall, but then you'llpick the seat.
That's not against the wall.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
And I'm like, oh, change up, and we don't got to
talk about it and we don't gotto talk about it.
You know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
So, as we close, we want to finish with a few
questions to sit with, whetheryou're the person who came home
or the person who's holdingspace for somebody else's return
.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, this journey is layered and none of us get it
right every time, but reflectionkeeps us growing.
So here are some questions wefound helpful.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
What metaphorical scars are you still carrying and
how do they show up in yourdaily life?
Where have you been trying tofix instead of connect, and
what's one ritual, one rhythm orone small act that helps you
feel safe in your relationships?
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, and I'd add this when are you holding?
Shame that needs to be named.
What does healing look like foryou?
Not a perfect version, but areal messy brave version.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
And, like I did with the part one episode, because of
the topic, because of itsvulnerability, I think it's
important to leave you with anaffirmation.
And here it is we are growingtogether Even in the hard
moments.
We are healing in ways thatpunishment never could.
We are not broken.
We are rebuilding.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
That's dope, all right.
So I mean I said earlier, Ithink I said earlier, you know
we try to be authentic andvulnerable with this podcast.
So just know like you're notalone.
You know whether you'renavigating your own scars,
whether you're walking besidesomeone else like you're doing
the courageous work.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
And if this episode spoke to you, please share it
with somebody who needs to hearit.
And if you've got your ownstory to tell, as always, we
would love to hear it.
You can reach out to us on oursocials or visit us at
lockdowntolegacycom.
Our email, as always, isstories S-T-O-R-I-E-S at
lockdowntolegacycom.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
And that is the number two.
Great yeah.
So hey, I'd like to ask youguys, man, like reach out to us
on our socials, man, Facebook,Instagram.
I recently started putting outthese videos on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
You're a TikToker now in that generation.
I don't even know whichgeneration it is.
I'm an old head.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
I'm an old head.
I don't know who the TikTokersis.
I know I've been out for agesand I'm just creating my first
account, so come support me.
All right, but until next timeyo keep choosing love over
control, presence overperfection and legacy over shame
.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Take care, y'all Remember, healing is mutual
Peace.
Hey y'all, welcome back to another episode of
Lockdown to Legacy, where wespeak truth, share stories and
build bridges betweenincarceration and healing.
I am your co-host, debbie Jones, and today's episode is a
continuation of a conversationthat really struck a chord with
so many of you.
And I'm not here alone.
Remy's here with me.
He's not just a co-host, but mypartner in life and healing,
(00:21):
and he's here to share hisperspectives the real, the raw
and the firsthand.
Do you want to say hi, mr Jones?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hey, what's up?
Everybody Glad to be back.
And yeah, this one was personal, because when people talk about
coming home, they usually onlytalk about the freedom aspect.
But it's not always just aboutthat.
It's about what it feels liketo come home and still be
carrying the prison in yournervous system or in your sleep,
or even in your silence.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Right.
So if you're new to us thisweek, I encourage you to hit
pause here and go back to mysolo soad this last week, where
we broke down what metaphoricalscars are.
So in part one, we talked aboutthose invisible wounds that
incarceration leaves behind, andI will be referring to those
throughout, kind of as thosemetaphorical scars.
We explored how those scarsshow up in the body, in
(01:11):
relationships, in the dailyrhythms of post-prison life, but
that healing isn't a one-waystreet.
It's something we do inrelationship and with each other
.
So it was important for me tobring Remy back this week so
that we could do this togetherand go a little bit deeper.
So this is the part two.
If you hadn't listened to partone, you can jump in here too,
(01:32):
but I just encourage you to goback if you want some extra tips
and some more context andhistory with that.
So in the Scars we Carry, it'snot just about the person who
served time.
It's about the people who lovethem, who walk beside them and
who are trying to heal too.
Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I am ready.
I'll start here, all right.
So one of the hardest thingsabout being out is realizing
that you're not really out, atleast not always.
I mean you can always findyourself drifting back into
those old habits that you usefor protection, I mean, as
(02:10):
Debbie talked about in this lastepisode.
I mean, sometimes you're justlike entering into an unfamiliar
space and the people just thepresence of a large group of
people is like superuncomfortable, you know, the
presence of a large group ofpeople is like super
uncomfortable, you know.
Or going out to eat at arestaurant and having to eat
with your back to the wall orfacing the door, you know, I
(02:32):
mean I can honestly say thatsome of this stuff is kind of
like I've kind of done away with.
I don't I don't have to have myback to the wall or or facing
the door anymore.
But I can promise you that I'mvery much aware of everybody
who's coming and going andeverybody who's walking around
me.
So a lot of times I kind offeel guilty like I'm not giving
(02:54):
the people that I'm sitting infront of my full attention,
because my eyes are constantlydarting around.
You know, have you noticed thatabout me?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, that's why I did a whole episode about it.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Oh yeah, yeah, I forgot this is a part two.
So yeah, I mean I don't know ifpeople are dealing with the
paranoia factor.
I personally have some friendswho have dealt with that anxiety
coming home, with the paranoiaand everything.
I mean you got to remember thaton the inside, with the
paranoia and everything.
I mean you got to remember thaton the inside and, to some
(03:28):
degree, before prison.
I don't want to make this allabout prison, because I had a
life before prison that alwaysrequired me to be vigilant and
in my personal life now I stillsee the scars of that.
Like Debbie will tell you, I amthe security conscious person
in the house.
I am always the one that goesaround and locks all the doors
(03:48):
at night.
I'm the one who got us an alarmsystem, just stuff like that.
What do you got?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
No, stay alert, stay live.
I think that that's abiological wired-in factor.
It'll take a long time to undothat, even if you can right.
I think from the oppositeperspective, as somebody who's
watching, that sometimes it isheartbreaking, not because I
want you to just get over it oranything like that, that's not
the mentality but I do want youto feel safe.
(04:20):
So I've had to learn that yoursurvival strategies aren't about
me, like your desire to makesure that every door is locked
and check it twice and is thesecurity system working, and all
of those things are not aboutme.
They're about protection.
But sometimes, I'll be honest,that's hard.
(04:41):
It's hard to, you know, kind ofsee those emotions rear their
head, or it's hard to kind ofask questions or feel like I'm
triggering an entire defensesystem in yourself.
And it's important then for meto do some introspection and
check in with self too, like amI being supportive?
Am I being too much?
How am I helping?
(05:03):
How am I contributing?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
what's inside of my control and outside of my
control.
So I think that that's alwaysthe thing that I'm weighing.
You know, she is the let me dosome research on this subject.
She is the one who brought thispost-incarceration syndrome
into the picture, whereas me,I'm the one who has the lived
experience and that's how Ilearn best how they come off to
(05:36):
other people.
I mean, to be honest, sometimesI don't even care how they come
off to other people.
It's not until the problem isblatant and in front of me that
I say, okay, let me go back andanalyze the situation, which is
how I learned most of my lifelessons.
It's like going back,reflecting on retrospection,
(06:00):
introspection, stuff like thatthat's how I learn.
And to hear you bring all thisstuff in like, hey, here's an
article, hey, there's a like,it's an actual thing.
That's very helpful to me and Ifeel like it could be helpful
to a lot of other people who maybe like me, who are just
bumping all the roadblocks andthe obstacles in the road and
(06:21):
then saying, okay, how can I dothat better next time?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, it's the normalization of it that I think
is important, like it's a realthing.
It's not that you're broken,it's not institutionalized, it's
not any of these other harmfulconnotations, and it's not even
post-traumatic stress disorder,like that's a completely
different thing.
I think that's what wasimportant to me in kind of
bringing this episode togetherand talking about it.
(06:47):
It's been a conversation youand I have had a lot in our
marriage because, like you saidearlier, I don't want to make it
all about prison either.
I've had things to unlearn too.
I've had to stop treating everyconversation like a check-in or
a report, and it was importantto me to learn how to breathe
and pause and listen, not justfix, because these metaphorical
(07:11):
scars are not just yours.
Being the person who holdsspace for that kind of thing is
a pain, but it changes you too.
It stretches your capacity andsome days stretches you to the
edge.
So I think it's important thatwe kind of think through what
that looks like and I appreciatethat we're kind of doing this
episode and being vulnerable andtalking about ourselves and our
(07:32):
relationship to hopefully helpother people too.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, I mean it's great that we have this outlet
to talk because really, like,every episode is kind of like
going to therapy, to be honest,you know, and I get a chance to
really look at what's going onin my life and share that so
that we can all learn from it,not just you guys and me being a
teacher, but me being a learnerand sharing my learning
(07:58):
experience.
So when I think about, and sowhen I think about our
relationship or the relationshipof someone who has these scars
(08:22):
and the person who's, as theperson coming on from prison or,
you know, with the scars, don'tlike to see ourselves as
victims, you know, or or asbeing, you know, hurt or
traumatized or anything likethat, because there's a certain
stigma to it and we feel like,oh, I have to be fixed, but it
(08:44):
is nice to be able to recognize,like man, I've, I've been
through some shit, you know.
You know, like growing up andnow seeing the stuff that I went
through growing up and nowbeing in our relationship and
saying, oh, it's just a culturaldifference.
You know, I say that a lot Likeman.
We just I grew up different,but that's an easy write-off,
(09:08):
you know that's an easywrite-off, so I don't have to
face what it is that I actuallywent through growing up and I
mean there's a lot.
I can't lie man.
I mean at first I thought, ah,there's a couple of things I
could talk about, but to behonest, it goes deep.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, I think that healing is.
It's not just about survivingthe past, it's about building
something different in thepresent.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I mean there's so much to unlearn and relearn, and
there's so many new avenues andbetter ways to handle certain
situations that I've neverthought of, and so I'm glad I
get to do it with you, babe.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah, I will be vulnerable here.
I can share some I've beentrying to call them growth edges
.
That is, some social emotionallearning shifting right.
It's not just a pain point,it's a what am I growing through
?
Shout out to friend of thepodcast, kevin Gilmore that's
his phrase grow through it.
So things that I had to learn isthat love doesn't mean
(10:20):
micromanaging.
I am somebody who I likestructure a little bit less than
you do.
I like routine a little bitless than you.
I'm a more impulsive person butI do like a very organized
house.
I guess I find routine and likeokay, this is what we do at
(10:41):
this time, this is what time thekids go to bed and I'm the
person who knows when all of thethings happen, and sometimes
that comes off as micromanagingand I have had to learn that
that also can then sound likesurveillance and you and I did
that for a long time was talkabout feeling surveilled by
(11:04):
somebody.
So I really had to pause and dosome introspection about like,
am I creating safety or am Irecreating control, and that was
not my aim as a partner.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, like, to be honest, I love routine, like
that is my jam.
But because I did so much timein prison, my routine is pretty
much 24 hours.
If it doesn't fit inside this24 hours, it'll completely throw
me off.
If you start telling me aboutwhat I have to do next week,
(11:38):
next month, six months from now,I'm like, yeah, okay.
And then it will start toapproach and I'll be like, oh
yeah, it's still, you know, amonth out, yeah, okay, all right
, it's still two weeks out, yeah, okay.
But like, if it doesn't fit inmy 24 hours, it'll be 24 hours
away and I'm like, oh shit, Ididn't do that thing, you know?
Um, when it comes to likeroutine, that's how you get
(12:01):
through prison, because if youfocus on the time of I got this
coming up in six months or thiscoming up in two months, like it
just feels so big to go into aprison and say I got 10 years
and oh, I can do this thing infive years, or I can do this
thing in seven years, I could dothis in six months you just
(12:24):
really get the anxiety of thereal situation, you know.
So I think I said this before ina previous episode I threw away
all my calendars.
I threw away I didn't have aclock, I didn't have calendars
or anything.
I see now the disservice that Idid to myself and how I pretty
much broke my frame of timemanagement.
(12:46):
You know, but I did it tosurvive the time.
You know it was hard.
It was a hard thing to.
It's a hard thing.
I can't say it was a hard thing.
It is a hard thing to come backfrom, to go from.
Time doesn't exist to.
I have all this stuff to manageand it's all got to be done at
(13:08):
a certain time.
So I can honestly say, with thesincerest apology I am sorry,
debbie, because I promise I dropthe ball often and I will
continue to.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I'm sorry, but you're doing better, I think, than we
were a few years ago.
Like, I think you're right andI want to go back to
surveillance because, um, thereare a lot of pieces and parts
(13:46):
that uh have time associatedwith them but that make it
really complicated, um, when oneof us is kind of keeping track
of that and the other personisn't able to.
But you've come up with somegood things.
You've got uh whiteboards youare using are using your
calendar on your phone.
Now You've had to learn thosethings right.
(14:07):
So, reminders, you're using thereminders app, but you had to
figure those processes out andthat was important.
Do you want to talk about yourviewpoint of surveillance?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
We've talked about that on the podcast.
I'm sorry, you kept saying thatand I kept kind of ducking it.
Let me move my mic here for asecond.
So, basically, when it came toman that jumped out when you
said it in the episode I waslistening to it as I was driving
I was like, oh, don't even gothere, you know.
But yeah, I had the hardesttime.
(14:44):
And it all started when you werelike hey, let me know when
you're leaving the work.
And I would always be like whyyou know like I get off work
every day of the same day.
Like I said, I'm all about thatroutine in the 24 hours.
So I'm like every day I get offat the same time.
Why do I need to let you know Imean, unless I'm going to be
late why you need to know whenI'm coming home from work.
(15:07):
And then that paranoia startsto come in, like the fuck is she
doing that she needs to knowwhere I'm coming home?
Well, just share your location.
I'm like why do you want toknow where I'm at?
And when I first started, I wasabsolutely against the location
share.
When was absolutely against thelocation sharing?
(15:27):
When I first started it, itimmediately caused like three
arguments.
Because she was like hey, babe,I just saw that you went here
and did this, and so, you know,I just want to make sure
everything was still the same.
And I'm like, what reason didyou have to be tracking me?
You know, instantly aggressiveand defensive and, to be honest,
I'm not one of those guys justlike I like I don't want you
tracking me because I'm doingdirt or anything like that.
(15:48):
I literally go to work, comehome, spend time with my family,
and you know, which is evenmore reason for me not to want
to be tracked I'm like you knowwhere I'm at, I'm at work, where
I'm with you, you know.
But it felt like surveillance.
But it felt like surveillance,it felt like answering to a CO.
(16:08):
If you go to a level threeprison, you are not allowed to
move unless you tell them whereyou're going, unless you have a
valid reason for going there.
You tell them what time you'regoing to be there and when
you're going to get back, and soit was like being in level
three all over again.
Actually, they call level threecontrol movement.
So it was like, man, this isnot what I want to be doing in
(16:33):
my marriage, you know, but thankyou for loving me through it
and being patient.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It was just a lot of conversation, right, like we had
to figure out everybody'smotivations and I think that
that was really important, thatyou had to understand my ask and
I had to understand your why,right, and that took us a long
time.
I think somebody said to meonce who listens to this podcast
(16:59):
.
They were like I don't thinkyou and Remy probably never
argue.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
I was like, oh, you didn't put the business out
there, did you?
I was like, oh yeah, you got areputation to keep in these
streets.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Man, we fight Like, come on now, we disagree on lots
of things.
We've been fighting what thelast two days, I think what, no,
what?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
When?
Come on, I don't know whatshe's talking about.
See, we're about to fight rightnow.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
But I think that we've made progress and come to
center on what those things are.
The other one I was going toask if you would be willing to
talk about is letting people in.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I don't like to let people in.
I think I don't like to letpeople yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I think, and I think that that you know I think it's
changed since I've known you thelast five years.
I think that at the beginningyou really wouldn't ask for help
and wouldn't rely on anybodyever, and I think that there's
still a little bit of that Likeyou don't want to rely on
anybody.
There's still a lot of that.
I'm not even going to frontthat, like you don't want to
rely on anybody, there's still alot of that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I'm not even going to front.
To be honest, between my issueswith time management and
letting people in, I would saythose are my big two, like one
and two factors that I deal withfrom being in prison and before
, like I talked about.
You know you chalk it up to theculture and in Black culture we
(18:25):
have this thing where it's likeno new friends.
You know I'm still here with myday ones, but my thing is I
don't got no day ones, no moreAll my old friends.
I left that in my past life.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
How about our day one podcast listeners though?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Shout out, shout out.
But yeah, so even in ourrelationship, it's like I don't
want to accept too much help.
I've learned to accept it, butI don't want to accept too much
because then it's like I startto feel like I'm not man enough,
you know, to do it on my own.
(19:02):
To be honest, man, we justtalked about this, like
yesterday, two days ago,something like that, where I
would rather fail than accepttoo much help, you know.
But the reality is that indoing a lot of this stuff and
(19:22):
the growth and the rate ofgrowth that we have achieved, a
lot of this stuff is new, youknow.
So I have to learn it while I'mdoing it, or like learn it
quickly enough to then do it ina, in a, you know, short time
frame.
And, you know, sometimes I get,I get overwhelmed and I just
(19:43):
like fuck it if it fail.
It fail like I don't care, I'lldo it whenever.
And that is not debbie, debbielike are you going to do this?
I'm like man, that's my thing,leave me alone.
And, to be honest, man, I thinkthat was just the fear, talking
for real, like the fear ofdisappointment, the fear of
(20:04):
being a burden, the fear ofdepending on somebody who might
leave, or the fear of dependingon somebody and then not being
able to do it without them.
So I mean part of it is provingsomething to somebody else and
then part of it is proving it tomyself.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah, I mean, it's all messy, it's growth, it's
grace it's still happening.
Should we talk about somethings that we found to be
helpful for us in kind ofstarting these conversations
when we realized that triggerswere happening, or how we kind
of overcame our own fears andfrustrations independently and
with each other?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, sure, I know, for me it's been hit or miss.
You know, I I learned thattrying to talk about it when it
happens is, um, sometimes notthe thing to do, but at the same
time, I never like to feel likeI'm bringing up old stuff, you
know.
So, um, what I've learned isit's best to make a designated
(21:10):
time to talk about stuff likethat when other people aren't
around, when you don't got otherstuff going on that you need to
focus on.
You know, we have our nightswhere you know we just play
video games or we go on walks orwhatever, and that's the time
where you can kind of have thatsafe conversation.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I think, as we have learned each other and I think
this is true of everyrelationship, regardless of the
incarceration status right, youhave to learn what it is your
partner needs at a time thatmaybe you don't like them but
you love them, right.
And so that strategy I talkedabout on the last episode was
(21:50):
that co-regulation strategy.
Like how do you calm eachother's nervous system without
even having to say a wordBecause you don't want to lean
heavy into that reason part, youdon't want to lean into the?
Well, how do we fix it?
Why did you do it that way?
How do we do it differently inthe future?
Like, what you need first isjust some time, some presence,
(22:10):
and sometimes you just have tolearn as you go what those
things are.
I know that for me, oftentimes,when you know I'm not having a
great day, you'll just likestart the teapot before I come
home, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Or if it's a night for you to cook, I'll just start
cooking, start prepping,whatever you know anything to
give you a second to yourself.
When it comes to dealing withproblems with each other, kind
of like I said before, like it'snot always the time to talk
about it in the moment I'velearned that sometimes it works
better if we state the issue butnot go into the solution yet,
(22:55):
Because a lot of times it'ssomething that we don't want to
hear, you know.
So it kind of stings, you know.
And so to be like, hey, youknow, earlier, when this thing
happened, you know, it kind ofrubbed me wrong.
I felt like X, y and Z.
But we can leave it at that,you know, because I know if we
(23:16):
try to go into it, it's going tobe a defensive response.
You're going to either justifyit or say why you should get
over it, which is not alwaysthat well, that's not really
ever the best response.
First you need to digest andreflect on the situation that
was stated, you know, and thenlater on be like, hey, listen, I
(23:40):
heard what you said and I cansee how this might be.
Or, you know, maybe we can trythis and then we can have a
conversation about it.
But to be honest, I learned thisfrom saying some stuff the
wrong way, debbie gettingdefensive, and I'm like you,
always getting defensive.
(24:00):
And then debbie come back afterwe did not spoke to each other
all day and be like I'm sorry.
How I responded, you know.
And then also on my side,debbie said some stuff I'm like
man, whatever you know.
But then later on like I'msorry, even before I feel like I
(24:22):
really did something wrong,just like I can't.
I'm one to not want to go to bedangry.
So I'm sorry about whathappened earlier, you know.
But we did that enough to whereit's like maybe we should just
state the issue and not go intoit.
And I mean things got a lotbetter because a little inside
(24:45):
everybody might think we got thebest chemistry.
But there was one point wherewe argued so much Right and we
were kind of fearful of it.
But I mean, luckily it was abrief time and we are so much
better to where we can actuallyembody that, to where people are
like oh, you guys are so greatand we're like we know, you know
(25:08):
.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
No, I think we've had .
I mean, we really have had towork on it, like every couple
does, right, uh, but I think wehave to pay attention to it
differently, given the historiesthat we both have, particularly
like learning what triggers are.
So, again, removing theincarceration status out of it
or putting it in, however youwant to look at it like, we have
to be really intentional as tohow we look and work at things.
(25:31):
Um, and we have, and we have tonot assume that we know what
that's rooted in.
Right, it's not our thing toheal for the other person, but
it is our duty as a partner toshow up and respond.
I have a coworker who likes tosay I'm not.
I can be responsive, but I'mnot responsible.
I can be responsive, but I'mnot responsible, and so I think
(25:53):
it's important within thiscontext that we know we have a
role in helping somebodyregulate.
We have a role in helpingsomebody heal.
It's not our responsibility toget them there.
It's not my responsibility toknow all of your triggers and
figure them out for you so thatI can fix them.
That's not my purpose.
(26:14):
Healing is a self-owned journeythat somebody has to embark on,
but I can be alongside of you.
So I think that here are a fewthings and we can speak to each
one individually.
But here are a few other thingsI think that helped us Walk and
talks.
You kind of spoke to that alittle bit.
There is less pressure andsignificantly more movement.
It helps us regulate and ithelps us talk.
(26:39):
At the same time, we have thebest conversations when we are
doing something physical.
I think I didn't mean that in asex way, I meant like going on
a walk or going to the gym orlike, I think, even driving,
because we're in that parallel.
Well, my big thing.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
The one I love most is cooking together.
Cooking is kind of one of mylove languages and I love it
when we're in the kitchentogether and it's just like two
chopping boards and a couple ofpots and we're going at it and I
mean, you're right, that'sconversations, whether they lead
to resolutions or not.
(27:16):
It's kind of just thatchemistry thing.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
This one.
I don't think that we do verymuch, but I know that it's
really successful with folkswho've experienced incarceration
.
This one actually comes out ofthe Florida Innocence Project
article that we had talked aboutlast week, and they recommend
code words.
They say when a person isfeeling off, you don't explain
it right away which is somethingyou spoke to, remy, but they
use the system like yellow light.
Say yellow light because it'sjust a heads up that you're not
(27:41):
fully okay, but you're trying,and I think that that's kind of
what you were talking aboutearlier.
Like we don't get into theissue, but we at least let a
statement be known that there'sa something right that we would
want to come back to.
So similar but different.
So they suggest this code wordstrategy to kind of help folks
work through that.
Did you want to say somethingthere?
(28:04):
No.
And then shared rituals, whichyou also talked about a little
bit with cooking.
But like we are reallyintentional on Sunday, sunday is
our day together, so we arereally intentional with our time
and how we spend it on Sundays.
We also do things like nophones at dinnertime, just so
that dinner is a shared familyexperience.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, we do a lot of things with our kids at dinner
where we talk about our day,play games and everything like
that.
But another, going back to theSunday ritual, we clean on
Sunday.
Now, sunday is not a day whereyou know it's not the only day
we clean and really it's not alot to clean, but for some
(28:47):
reason just us two cleaning onthat day feels like it's some
type of connection.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Oh, there's a playlist.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, we have a shared playlist.
Debbie told you guys we don'thave much to share in the way of
music, but our shared playlistwe actually have two where you
know we kind of link ouraccounts and we contribute to
them together.
You know it's a nice littlevibe to set that connected tone.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
The Innocence Project also recommends some things
like gratitude check-ins,creating a space of structure
without it feeling likesurveillance, and I think that
you and I build this into ourSundays also.
Right, we have some prettystructured conversations every
Sunday around our finances andwhat's coming up in the week and
those types of things.
But again, it kind of is rooted, intentionally or
(29:37):
unintentionally, in that desirefor us to everybody know what's
coming up, without there being atime management thing for you
to drop the ball on and feelguilty about, right, or then I
know where you are and you knowwhere I am, without it feeling
like surveillance later in theweek, because I can just be like
oh yeah, remy said he was goingto be late because X, y, z.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, I've learned recently, I could say within the
last six months, to recognize.
You said you could beresponsive, but it's not
responsibility, mm-hmm.
But you have to know who you'redealing with.
I used to always say you knowanger.
(30:16):
Well, it was actually a quote.
So I'm into quotes.
Anger is the byproduct of unmetexpectations and we were
expecting stuff of each otherthat was not in our nature.
I mean, it wasn't in the waythat we're built, you know our
nature.
I mean it wasn't in the waythat we're built, you know.
(30:37):
So I had to start recognizingmy own faults.
Kind of I told you guys aboutthe retrospection, the
introspection.
I had to start saying, okay,debbie asked me to do this thing
.
Debbie comes back, sees Ididn't do it.
Debbie does it herself and kindof silently broods about it.
I'm like, hey, I was going todo that.
Now I'm mad, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
I'm nodding my head so hard listener.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, but I've learned to start asking.
When she asked me hey, can youdo this?
When does that need to be doneby?
Because I don't want you to seeme over here playing a video
game or, you know, lollygaggingaround and this thing needs to
be done by noon, when I plannedon doing it at three, you know.
(31:22):
So don't die anymore.
I get it.
And you, hey, sometimes I miss,still Often.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
But, whatever, I think we also are good at
pausing.
That's something that we've hadto learn.
I think a root of a lot of ourconversations is do you want
advice right now, or you justwant me to be present?
Because a lot of times, theanswer is I just want you to
listen.
Right, like, like, I don't wantthe advice.
I already know what I'm goingto do, I already know, you know
what my next steps are, and itwould piss me off, right, like,
(31:58):
if.
And vice versa.
I did the same thing for you Ifyou presented me with something
that was happening and I justjumped in with a solution that
can be triggering, right?
So it was important for us topractice a pause, but it was
equally important for us to seedo you want advice right now, or
you just want me to listen?
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Yeah, I mean, and sometimes I don't want either.
Sometimes I really just wantyour presence, you know.
And on the advice side, there'sbeen times where you're like,
yeah, I want the advice, youdon't get the advice you want.
And Debbie has gotten to thepoint where she'd be like, okay,
(32:36):
I don't want to talk about thisanymore.
And I'm like you invited me tothe conversation, you know.
But I had to recognize and thiswas through previous
conversations that sometimes,like I said, I'm not aware of my
own triggers or whatever I'mgoing through and I don't know
when to quit.
I don't know when's enough'senough.
I'm like, no, we're going totalk about this.
Like, calm down, dude, I'm hereto help.
(32:56):
Why am I so angry, you know?
So, most importantly, we'velearned to pause, we've learned
to ask.
You know, do you want theadvice, do you want the presence
?
And more often than not, theanswer is just the presence.
Right, because most of the timewe're not trying to be fixed,
we just want to feel safe enoughto be seen.
(33:18):
And that's what these littlerituals and rhythms do they
build safety yeah, they're theemotional version of seat belts
not flashy but life-saving oh,we put that on a t-shirt.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Coming up next.
I think we should talk a littlebit about what healing looks
like now and how, even thoughthe scars are still there,
they're no longer leading theway, and how this component of
incarceration doesn't have to besomething that has these
metaphorical collateralsanctions on a day-to-day basis
either.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah.
So let's be real, thosemetaphorical scars, they don't
vanish.
They're still there.
But what's changed is who's incharge, and the scars used to
lead the way.
Now they kind of just ride inthe backseat.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah, that part.
We're not saying healing's done.
I think it's not a finish line,it's more like a rhythm, and
some days we're in sync andother days we find that we are
very offbeat.
Is that the right version?
But we don't give up the dance.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, that is great Now.
I used to think healing wouldfeel like being fixed, like I'd
wake up one day and not bescared or triggered, but that's
not real.
Healing for me has beenrecognizing what my scars are
and how they are showingoutwardly, and choosing not to
(34:46):
let them be in control of my day.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
And I think for me it's making sure that I'm not
making your silence somethingabout me.
It is rarely, if ever, personalis what I tell people.
When I'm doing consulting andcoaching, we look at people's
traumas and responses and we'relike why are they coming at me
that way when it rarely, if ever, has anything to do with you?
(35:09):
It's rarely personal, but welike to internalize that a
little bit and make it feelpersonal, and so it's been
really important for me thathealing has meant not
internalizing those moments andlearning to trust the foundation
that you and I have built.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, Now I would like to pause here and kind of
go back and focus on something.
You know where it's.
Like we say, healing is notlike being fixed.
I always like to tell peoplethat change does not mean that
you have to do away with yourprevious version.
Right, you know, I tell peoplewhen it comes to professional
(35:51):
stuff, when it comes to personalstuff, like I'm very much the
old person that I was Don't getme wrong when it comes to this
context that we're dealing withnow, I also have a lot of scars
from that person still beingthere, from that person still
being there.
But the growth that I've got tothis point is because I've
(36:11):
learned how to use the old mebetter.
You know, I've learned to usewhat I have and, you know,
handle it different or aim it atsomething more positive, Like I
used to have this oldaggression and now I've learned
how to just tame it, use it as atool when necessary.
You know, when it comes toconfronting somebody, Debbie's
(36:35):
not that person.
She's like babe, I need you togo talk to them, Like I got this
.
When it comes to negotiating,I'm like you know, hey, this is
the line.
We're not going to cross thisline let's talk business.
So I don't want you to thinklike man.
You know, this change is sointimidating, Right, Because I
(36:57):
have to change who I am.
That's what makes you start tofeel like you're broken.
Nah, that's not the case.
What we're going to learn issome new skills to cope with
situations, to learn when to bevulnerable to, when to be
aggressive, when to be securityconscious.
You know, because, really, ifyou change the perspective,
(37:18):
these are skills.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Right, that's kind of a trauma.
That's a Dr Perry concept, too.
He talks a lot about liketrauma.
That's a Dr Perry concept too.
He talks a lot about like weoften ask people to change.
We often ask them to stop thesebehaviors that are problematic,
without replacing them withsomething.
So we haven't offered anybodyanything new.
We're just telling them to stopthis thing over here, which
(37:40):
does a discredit to who theyhave been, but we also, then,
are discrediting things thathave kept them safe thus far in
their lives.
So we're asking them tocompletely stop over here and
just do this new thing, andthat's not giving them any
credit for who they've had to bein their lifetime.
And instead we need to pairthose things together Like okay
(38:01):
within this context.
So, for example, you and I'srelationship.
Like so, within my marriage,here are behaviors that are okay
, that I can borrow from my oldself, and here are new ones that
I've had to learn.
Or here are ways that I've hadto do those skills differently,
because this is how I want mymarriage to be.
And look, whereas I might leanmore heavily on those old skill
(38:22):
sets in another context, butwithin this space, that's not
what I need, right, and thosearen't the tools in my toolbox
that I need to take with me forthe job, right.
So it's always great to teachpeople new things, and I think
we've talked a lot about that,this episode of like.
Here are the things that we cando to learn a new skill set and
create something new ormaximize on old things that
(38:43):
we've done, but it's all equallyimportant to give credit to
those skill sets that have keptus safe or alive up until this
point too.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, I mean, we don't need to necessarily change
us, you know.
To put it another way, I guessI could say I don't want you to
hear hey, you're wrong.
You know, like, what you are iswrong, what you're doing is
wrong.
I would rather you hear andaccept it as hey, man, that
(39:16):
could be used as a better like,that's a great quality, but let
me show you how to use it better.
Right, you know to handledifferent situations that may
come at you, so that way youdon't feel like man, I got to
just change everything aboutmyself.
You're like oh man, I can learnsome new coping mechanisms.
I can learn a new perspective,a new way to use this tool.
(39:39):
I mean, if I gave you a hammerand all you knew was hammer and
nails and I was like hey, let meshow you how to use this other
side, it's got a claw on it.
You can take these nails out.
I'm not saying that you have tostop looking at this as a
whacking tool.
I'm saying you can use thissame thing a different way.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Right, exactly right.
Some other things from thesupporter role.
I talked heavily about thesupporter role last week in our
part one episode.
So, again, if that's the roleyou play, like, I do make sure
that you check that episode out,because I think I talk about a
lot of those things in depth.
But for this section, what Iwould say is there are easy
things, language-wise, that youcan do to support, helping, grow
(40:20):
a new skill set.
Again, you can be responsivebut not responsible right For
somebody's change.
So, uh, things like previouslywhen it was important for you to
sit with your back to the wallin the restaurant and have that
safety, um, particularly rightat the beginning, it was
important for me to like, justknow that and just be like hey,
you want to go sit by the wall?
(40:41):
Or hey, uh, tell the hostess,like, can we have a?
Can we have that table overthere?
It didn't have to bring up thething, we didn't have to talk
about it, but it allowed you tobe safe and seen without having
to get back into those triggersand that trauma.
Equally some other phrasesinstead.
Like I mentioned in the lastepisode, that surveillance piece
(41:01):
was really important.
So, instead of like how's yourday.
Where are you going?
What time are you going to beback?
Some of the times, those thingsare appropriate, but instead
it's also important for myselfto just pause and take a breath
and instead say, like, what kindof support do you need today?
Or just let you come home andhave your moment and then talk
(41:22):
to me about your day.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
I've noticed that you often say now, what's your day
look like, instead of being likewhere are you going and what
time?
What's your day look like?
Well, I got this thing to do.
I'm going to go here around 3o'clock.
I got to go do this whatever.
So it's kind of like I knowwhat you expect.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
It's not a secret.
I know what you expect.
Yeah, you know it's not asecret.
I didn't hide it from you.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
I don't have to be like man, why you want my whole
itinerary.
It's like, you know, I got somestuff to do.
I got to go in town, I got togo see this person, that person
do this, whatever, yeah, itworks.
I'm telling you, like, evenwith the thing about sitting
with my back against the wall,like when you started doing it,
(42:08):
I noticed, because at first itwas like you didn't understand
it.
Then it was like, hey, let's goover here.
And I was like, damn, she's noteven going to ask, say nothing
about it.
So it kind of drew attention toit in my head without drawing
attention to it to anybody else,right?
So then it was like, oh yeah,that's a thing that I do.
Maybe I should try somethingnew, you know.
(42:31):
And I started just being like,nah, we can take any table, you
know.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Or sometimes you'll go to the booth first and you
know like I've picked this boothbecause it's like you can sit
to the wall, but then you'llpick the seat.
That's not against the wall.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
And I'm like, oh, change up, and we don't got to
talk about it and we don't gotto talk about it.
You know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
So, as we close, we want to finish with a few
questions to sit with, whetheryou're the person who came home
or the person who's holdingspace for somebody else's return
.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, this journey is layered and none of us get it
right every time, but reflectionkeeps us growing.
So here are some questions wefound helpful.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
What metaphorical scars are you still carrying and
how do they show up in yourdaily life?
Where have you been trying tofix instead of connect, and
what's one ritual, one rhythm orone small act that helps you
feel safe in your relationships?
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, and I'd add this when are you holding?
Shame that needs to be named.
What does healing look like foryou?
Not a perfect version, but areal messy brave version.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
And, like I did with the part one episode, because of
the topic, because of itsvulnerability, I think it's
important to leave you with anaffirmation.
And here it is we are growingtogether Even in the hard
moments.
We are healing in ways thatpunishment never could.
We are not broken.
We are rebuilding.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
That's dope, all right.
So I mean I said earlier, Ithink I said earlier, you know
we try to be authentic andvulnerable with this podcast.
So just know like you're notalone.
You know whether you'renavigating your own scars,
whether you're walking besidesomeone else like you're doing
the courageous work.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
And if this episode spoke to you, please share it
with somebody who needs to hearit.
And if you've got your ownstory to tell, as always, we
would love to hear it.
You can reach out to us on oursocials or visit us at
lockdowntolegacycom.
Our email, as always, isstories S-T-O-R-I-E-S at
lockdowntolegacycom.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
And that is the number two.
Great yeah.
So hey, I'd like to ask youguys, man, like reach out to us
on our socials, man, Facebook,Instagram.
I recently started putting outthese videos on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
You're a TikToker now in that generation.
I don't even know whichgeneration it is.
I'm an old head.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
I'm an old head.
I don't know who the TikTokersis.
I know I've been out for agesand I'm just creating my first
account, so come support me.
All right, but until next timeyo keep choosing love over
control, presence overperfection and legacy over shame
.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Take care, y'all Remember, healing is mutual
Peace.
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