April 9, 2025 • 31 mins
Coming home from prison doesn’t erase the damage, it just changes the scenery. In this powerful episode, we explore the invisible scars left by incarceration and how loved ones can offer support rooted in empathy, not enforcement.
Dr. Debbie Jones walks listeners through the emotional, psychological, and neurological impacts of prison life, using brain-based, trauma-informed practices to help families and partners navigate the complex terrain of reentry. From Post-Incarceration Syndrome to the importance of co-regulation and autonomy, this episode offers tools, language, and real-life examples for anyone who wants to love someone through their healing.
Whether you’ve served time or are walking alongside someone who has, this conversation is for you. This episode provides compassionate guidance on fostering connection over control and empathy over enforcementBecause healing doesn’t just happen with freedom, it happens in relationships.
🔗 Mentioned in this episode: Dr. Bruce Perry, Post-Incarceration Syndrome, and resources from the Florida Innocence Project, National Incarceration Association, and Prison Policy Initiative.
💬 If this episode resonates with you, share it with a friend or reach out to continue the conversation. Your story—and theirs—deserves to be heard. Share your experiences with us at stories@lockdown2legacy.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Debbie Jones (00:00):
Hey everybody and welcome back to another episode
of Lockdown to Legacy.
I am your co-host, debbie Jones, and I am here by myself today
and I'm really excited to dothis episode.
You know, lockdown to Legacy isa place where we speak truth,
share stories and build bridgesbetween incarceration and
healing, and what I'm hoping todive into today is powerful and
(00:23):
often unspoken component that isa part of reentry and that is
the scars you can't see.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about the emotional,
psychological and neurologicalimpact of incarceration and how
we can love our partners,friends, family, whomever,
through that healing.
This episode is for anyone whois loving someone who's home,
(00:44):
walking beside someonereentering the world after
prison and wondering how do Isupport them without smothering
them, how do I show up for thosewithout triggering those scars?
So let's dive deep into it.
In this first section I'm goingto kind of talk about these
invisible wounds ofincarceration that people often
carry home with them from prison, and you know the motivation, I
(01:07):
guess, or the inspiration forthis episode, has come from my
own experience in loving mypartner.
You all know the great,wonderful and amazing Remy Jones
, host of this podcast, hadspent 10 years incarcerated.
And while we throw around thisterm institutionalized and it's
not one that Remy or Iparticularly like when thinking
(01:28):
about incarceration it isapplicable in that people bring
home more than those, the waythat we love our partners, and
it shows up in the way that weshow up for each other.
(01:50):
So this was something that Remyand I navigated at the
beginnings of our relationship.
What's important here is I wasnot Remy's first relationship in
coming home from prison.
We didn't know each otherduring that time either, so
these were kind of things I cameto cold, I didn't understand,
and you know there are times Istill don't understand the
depths of this and sometimes Ido step on these triggers and
(02:13):
bring them back out.
But I wanted to share a littlebit from my own expertise in
this kind of brain-based scienceof how these things have been,
these strategies.
This understanding has beenhelpful to me as the partner of
someone who I love who had tospend quite a considerable
amount of time incarcerated.
(02:33):
So when people says scarred byincarceration, I think most
folks might picture the physicallike an injury or just the
visible toll of time served, butwe don't talk a lot about the
scars.
You can't see the ones on thebrain or the nervous system or
even the heart.
And those metaphorical scarsthe psychological and emotional
(02:58):
damage caused by prisonenvironment are similar to
physical scars in that theydon't just go away once
somebody's released.
They show up in how a personfeels, how they think, how they
trust and even how they respondto stress and how they connect
with others.
So, like I said, I want tobring a little bit of brain
science into this, becausethat's the world that I've lived
(03:19):
in in a lot of my career inbringing these trauma-informed
approaches or this understandingof the brain into how we
interact with other people.
So you're going to hear mereference some of that today as
a part of this conversation.
So, according to Dr Bruce Perry,who has written a lot of books
I recommend the book whatHappened to you he did that in
conjunction with Oprah andeverybody loves Oprah, so you
(03:41):
can pick that up.
But Dr Perry says that traumaaffects the brain from the
bottom up, meaning that thereare survival parts of the brain,
like the brain stem, that kickin long before thinking parts do
so.
If somebody has spent months,years or decades in a space
where they had to constantlyprotect themselves, they learn
(04:03):
to live in that part of thebrain, that survival part, and
that nervous system becomeswired to then scan for threats
even when the danger is nolonger present.
And that wiring it doesn't justshut off when the prison gates
open.
When I talk about this survivalbrain in different settings,
what I often tell people is justbecause the threat immediate
(04:26):
threat has gone away, so theprison environment has gone away
, your perceptions of it haven't.
You have become wired to expectthat environment.
So if you take Remy, forexample, 10 years is a long time
to have a specific routine, aspecific type of threat
consistently show up and havingto navigate that environment for
it to just now go away.
(04:47):
It doesn't work like that.
Our bodies just don't work likethat.
So here's a few ways in whichthis can show up for people, and
this is sourced from a lot ofdifferent articles.
I'm going to link all of themin the show notes today.
So you'll hear me talk aboutthe Prison Policy Institute that
(05:07):
we talk a lot about.
You'll also hear me referencean article by Dr Carrie Pettis
Davis and Stephanie Kennedy andpart of the Institute for
Justice Research and Development.
You will hear me reference anarticle from GBH done by
Dominique Farrell.
You'll hear me reference anarticle from GBH done by
Dominique Farrell.
You'll hear me referencepost-incarceration syndrome and
(05:34):
that is an AmericanPsychological Association term,
but there are a lot of articlesthat consider this.
The NIA team has a great one.
And then I also am going totalk a little bit about the
Florida Innocence Project, whodoes a lot of work around this
topic.
So all of these examples comefrom those articles.
Again, I'm going to sourcethose for you in the show notes.
(05:54):
But here's a few ways in whichthis survival brain can show up.
A person might always want toface the door when sitting in
public places, not becausethey're being difficult, but
because their body is still insurvival mode.
So being able to see the doorsand who's coming in and going
out, knowing those exits, it'sreally important.
They might jump at suddennoises or hate being touched,
(06:18):
either from behind or justgenerally.
The touch is a huge sensorypiece that sometimes feels
unsafe and avoiding large crowds.
Again, this isn't just aboutpersonality, it is about
protection.
Folks may not want to betracked constantly or asked
about their plans.
After being on surveillance andcontrol for years, simple
(06:41):
questions, even like where areyou going, can feel like parole
all over again For years.
Simple questions, even likewhere are you going, can feel
like parole all over again.
You've heard Remy and I talkabout this one at length on this
podcast, so I won't go too deep.
But a part of this.
The goal of this is for us toshare our experiences, and this
is a big one for us.
We had to learn how to navigatethis because it felt to me
(07:02):
normal in a relationship that Icould be able to ask where are
you going, or how long are yougoing to be there?
What time will you be home?
Let me know when you're leaving, work, those types of things
and even sharing location whichhas become, you know, a newer
age problem with iPhones and allthose things of technology like
(07:28):
where you just share me, shareyour location with me, then I
don't have to ask you.
That was my solution, like Idon't have to ask you when
you're going to be home becauseI can just check.
But that sense of surveillancewas really threatening to my
husband and we had to figure outhow to navigate the where are
you going without it feelinglike another life sentence.
I don't want my marriage tofeel like a life sentence or
surveillance, so it wasimportant for us to kind of
think through that, and sothat's a big one for us.
Some people might alsoexperience emotional numbness.
(07:50):
Therapists call this kind ofthe flat effect, and that's not
coldness, it's just a nervoussystem doing what it's supposed
to do, which is cope with trauma.
So you heard me mention theterm post-incarceration system,
so let me break that down alittle bit.
Post-incarceration syndrome isa term that describes a cluster
of symptoms common in folks whohave been incarcerated for a
long time, like PTSD symptoms,institutionalized behaviors,
(08:15):
social disorientation or evensubstance use disorders.
It's a response to long-termexposure to a harmful
high-stress environment, and yetwe rarely name it or offer
support for it during re-entry.
This is not common.
We talk a lot on this podcastabout transition services and
their availability within cominghome from incarceration and
(08:38):
other systems, but being awareof PICS is a next step, because
most systems don't think aboutthis or prepare families for
thinking about this, and sothat's my hope in kind of
talking about this today too, isthat us on the other side the
lovers, the family members, thesupporters we need to show up
(09:02):
differently, and we can't do soin the absence of information.
So, according to the NationalIncarceration Association.
People with PICS may feeldisconnected, anxious, withdrawn
or intensely reactive, andwithout proper support they're
likely to isolate, shut down oreven re-offend.
And let me be clear, this isnot about weakness, it's about
(09:23):
survival.
So when we say prison leavescars, we're not being poetic.
We're just being honest thatthese are real neurological,
behavioral and emotionalinjuries that require real
understanding, real compassion,real healing.
And for those of us who lovesomeone who's come home, that
means that we have to be willingto shift how we see certain
(09:45):
behaviors and not look at it asdisrespect or distance, but
adaptiveness.
And those are messages that weare being given, but it's
important that we receive themas an evidence that our partners
, our loved ones, have survived.
So next I'm going to talk alittle bit about how these scars
show up in relationships andwhy loving someone doesn't mean
(10:06):
policing them.
So stick with me.
Okay, welcome back.
So let's talk about what itmeans after someone's come home
and how we love them.
Home isn't always healing.
Being out doesn't automaticallymean being free.
Those are not the same thingsand they especially are not
(10:30):
necessarily true.
Emotionally, coming home fromprison is often painted as this
joyful, triumphant return, butfor many it's confusing and
overwhelming, and even traumaticin its own ways.
The world has moved on.
Family routines have shifted.
People expect you to just jumpin like nothing happened, and
for someone who's carrying thesescars of incarceration, that
(10:52):
can feel like being thrown intodeeper water before they've even
learned to swim.
One of the biggest issues isexpectations survival, like
(11:15):
finding a job, staying out oftrouble, managing flashbacks and
navigating a world thatsuddenly feels fast and foreign
to them, particularly dependentupon the amount of time that
they've spent behind bars.
So this is where relationshipsget tricky.
Well-meaning partners, friends,family members might start
asking questions like where areyou going?
Who are you with?
What time will you be back?
These often come from a placeof care, but to someone who just
(11:36):
left prison, they feel likesurveillance, like parole, like
being back inside, and that'swhy it's important that we don't
accidentally start policing ourpeople when they come home.
So let's flip the script.
Instead of what's your plan forthe day, I have had to shift a
little bit to is there anythingyou want to share with me about
(11:56):
your day?
Right, this gives my husbandpower in that conversation and
the ability to say as little ashe would like to, instead of,
who are you hanging out with?
I have tried things like I'dlove to know who's supporting
you these days.
There's a difference there,right, one is control.
One feels like connection andwe're aiming for connection
(12:21):
Again through thattrauma-informed lens, especially
Dr Perry's regulate relatereason model.
We understand that safety comesbefore deep conversations of
reasoning.
If a person doesn't emotionallyfeel safe in their home,
they're not going to open up andthey're not going to feel calm
and they're not going to trust.
And that's not about us failingour partners, it's about their
(12:42):
brain doing what their brain istrained to do under extreme
stress.
So the question becomes how doI show love in a way that
doesn't feel like control?
And that's what we're going totalk about next.
So let's get practical.
What does support actually looklike when your loved one is
navigating those invisible scars?
(13:03):
Because love isn't alwaysenough.
Love alone is not always enough.
We need tools, we needstrategies and we need a
trauma-informed mindset.
So let's start with thisco-regulation.
If someone's nervous system isactivated, your calm presence
can help regulate their stressresponse system.
So what that means is that ifyou see somebody who is
(13:26):
dysregulated or kind of ampingup and you're seeing that
behavioral response.
If you remain calm, you canhelp somebody else be calm.
So this might be lowering yourvoice or slowing your pace, even
softening your facialexpressions, not demanding
explanations, just being present.
Even sitting together insilence can be powerful if it
(13:48):
feels safe.
Next, we can offerpredictability without control,
creating a structure but lettingit breathe, such as hey, I'll
be making dinner at six, you'rewelcome to join, or you want me
to check in before the weekendto see what we both need?
It's not about micromanaging,it is about creating rhythm and
(14:08):
choice.
Third, we have to respect thetrauma response.
It's not personal if they don'twant to go out.
It's not a red flag if theywant to sit with their back to
the wall, and it's not rejectionif they pull away when they
feel overstimulated.
Bodies are just doing whatbodies do to survive.
And the truth is, in theenvironment in which our
(14:32):
partners have come from, theyhad to do a lot to survive.
According to the FloridaInnocence Project, many
returning citizens experiencethings like survivor's guilt,
emotional shutdown anddisconnect from their
surroundings, and unless thosearound them recognize this is
what it is, it often leads tomisunderstanding, conflict and
withdrawal.
So here are a few things that wecan do.
(14:53):
First, make space for quietmoments without pressure.
Second, invite but don't insist.
Third, learn aboutpost-incarceration syndrome and
how it might show up.
And fourth, focus on sharedrituals.
My husband and I like to sharemusic.
We don't like the same musicindividually, but there's a
(15:15):
specific kind of music we cometo together, and so we've
created a couple of playlistsand we play them.
When we do other things that weenjoy doing together, like
going on a walk or cooking, weplay our shared playlist because
those activities don't requireintense emotional labor, but
they allow us to buildconnection over time and, above
all else, be patient.
Healing is not linear.
(15:35):
There will be good days, therewill be hard days, but every
time we choose empathy overenforcement, we help soften up
those scars.
We become part of the healingenvironment, and that's what
we're leaning into.
Next is what healing can reallylook like and why.
We don't need all of theanswers to be part of the
solution.
(15:55):
So the truth is that healingdoesn't look like what most of
us expect.
It doesn't always look likesomeone opening up the right way
.
It doesn't always sound likesomeone saying I need help, and
it rarely happens on a timelinethat we can predict.
Healing, especially afterincarceration, is nonlinear.
It takes time, it takes safetyand it takes relationship.
(16:17):
But the good news is that thebrain can change.
With enough repetition andconsistency and safe connection,
even the most deeply wiredtrauma responses can soften.
Framework really shines that wetalked about from Dr Perry
earlier.
When we first relate, what wemean is breathing together,
(16:38):
listening to calming music,cooking side by side, going for
a walk in rhythm.
Anything that activates thoselower parts of the brain in a
predictable and safe way canhelp in calming the nervous
system.
Then we lean into relationship.
That's that relate part.
So after regulation we buildthat connection and that could
be just laughing together orwatching a favorite show or
(17:01):
sharing stories from childhood.
We don't have to start with thetrauma, but we do have to start
with the relationship.
As I mentioned, remy and I, youknow, got together after his
obvious incarceration, but wedidn't know each other while he
was incarcerated.
And so what I wanted to do,particularly at the beginning,
(17:22):
when our relationship was stillnew, we had a lot of connection
right that you often do in thosehoneymoon periods you lean into
each other and that learning ofeach other.
But I had to recognize that hedeserved space to share at a
pace that was fair to him.
Now I got to give Remy props.
You have heard him say, aswe've talked about our love
(17:44):
story before, that it was reallyimportant for him, on like one
of our very first phone calls,after we had been talking, you
know, via text or email for acouple of weeks, for him to say
hey, I need to let you know thatI've been previously
incarcerated and it's not fairto you or to me if I don't move
forward without letting you know.
And it wasn't a deal breakerfor me, it didn't matter to me
(18:07):
that he had been previouslyincarcerated and I didn't even
ask at that time for what itwasn't.
That didn't matter.
I very much believe inrehabilitation, so none of those
things were concerns or redflags to me.
What was important is that hewas able to share at a pace that
was determined by him, and Ihad to lean back a little bit
(18:31):
and lean back into thatregulation and relationship,
because I really wanted to startwith the trauma.
I wanted to understand thethings he might be experiencing
at home and you know part ofthat is this is the work I do on
a day-to-day basis, right.
So even as a trauma-informedpractitioner, even as somebody
who does this in the day-to-dayworld, I was like, well, tell me
about it, tell me about it.
(18:52):
And I did the thing I'm notsupposed to do, right, because
we're human and that's what wedo.
But I had to pull back andreally think through what
matters to me in building thisrelationship with this person.
This is a thing that I see as apotential long-term thing for
me, and it's important that wefind things that we like to do
(19:14):
together.
And I think, particularly forfolks who who maybe have gone
through part of the relationshipwith each other and that person
was incarcerated and nowthey're transitioning home, this
might look a little differentfor you, right, because you were
there, at least on phone orvideo chat, throughout part of
that incarceration, so you knowwhat that environment was like
(19:36):
for them, but in the transitionhome that's harder.
It's harder to identify whatthose shared things are for you
now that this environment nolonger exists.
Remy and I didn't have that samebarrier because we didn't have
a relationship during hisincarceration, nor was I his
first relationship in cominghome, but we still had to do a
(19:57):
lot of the learning, so we hadto figure out that we don't
share a lot of the same taste inmusic.
I do not like to watch movies,and he really loves movies.
We had to figure out what ourdifferences were so that we
could understand then.
What does it mean for us toregulate together?
What does it mean for us tohave relationship together?
(20:18):
And at the end of the day, itwas connection.
It was all rooted in connectionfor us, and it was important
that we leaned into that.
So only after we had thatunderstanding could we then move
into the reasoning.
That's where the deepconversations happen, not just
about the past and the pain, butthe goals.
And trying to reason againwithout relationship or
(20:39):
regulation just leads toshutdown and conflict.
So here's what healing mightlook like in real time.
This could be choosing to staypresent when you would normally
withdraw, saying no to an oldpattern and yes to something new
, asking for space instead ofexploding in anger, or
(21:01):
initiating a hug, a joke or amoment of connection.
All of those things are reallysmall, right, but they are huge
to the person that we are loving.
Through this healing right, itis crucial that we step back and
say what is our role andresponsibility in this?
(21:23):
You might've listened to thisepisode thus far and been like,
well, that's a lot for me to do,and them not taking ownership
of their trauma, right, likethey're not doing any of the
healing.
I'm doing all of the healing,and so here's the way that they
should have to show up too, likeit shouldn't all just be on me.
We've heard that before and Ithink that's true.
People are responsible to workthrough their own trauma, and
(21:52):
nor is it your responsibility tomake sure everybody is good.
It's not your responsibility tofix anybody, and what I would
counter is that we do have aresponsibility for showing what
is possible.
As I talked about earlier,safety comes in the form of
predictability.
Safety comes in the form ofconsistency.
Safety comes in the form ofpresence, and when we deprive
that of our partner because theyare still working through some
(22:17):
things, then we just make itthat much harder for them to
work through the things.
But instead, if we step backand say, okay, here are these
metaphorical scars, here arethese things that my partner is
struggling with, my loved one isstruggling with, how are the
ways in which I show up?
What are the small things thatI can tweak?
These aren't difficult things.
(22:38):
The language changes I'veoffered are not difficult to do.
Choosing to stay present whenwe might normally withdraw or
they might normally withdraw,isn't difficult.
Saying no to an old pattern andyes to something new
challenging in the moment, butnot difficult overall.
Asking for space instead ofgetting angry.
(23:00):
It's easy for us to escalatewhen somebody else has escalated
right.
That's why fights happen,that's why arguments occur.
But if we can hold on and askfor some space and step away
from that and revisit when wehave an ability to, we're going
to see a deeper level of healing.
(23:21):
And then initiating a hug, ajoke, a moment of connection.
These are things that we wantwith moment of connection.
These are things that we wantwith our partner anyway.
These are things we want withour loved ones anyway.
So being able to share that inreal time allows our person to
know that we are consistentlysafe.
You don't have to be atherapist to help somebody heal.
(23:42):
You just have to be consistent,kind, curious and willing to
show up.
And if we are walking alongsidesomebody on this journey, we
are helping them rewire thattrauma.
We are helping them toliterally rewire their brains
and that is sacred work.
You may not think it is.
(24:03):
I'm letting you know what youare doing is sacred work.
We are helping someone believethat freedom doesn't just mean
out of prison.
It means being safe and seenand supported and that, my
friends, is where legacy begins.
Before we wrap up, I want toleave some space for reflection.
(24:23):
If this episode stirredsomething in you, whether you're
someone who's coming home,someone who is loving somebody
through this process, I want youto know that it's okay to feel
all the things.
There is no perfect way to dothis.
I think that what I can shareabout my almost five-year
marriage at this point is that,like every other marriage, there
(24:46):
are ups and downs, but what istruly important for me in
supporting my partner is theunderstanding that I'm likely
going to get it wrong and I'mlikely going to continue to
activate some triggers.
There are things that I justcan't plan or solve for, things
that I just can't plan or solvefor, and when I step on that and
(25:06):
the situation blows up in a wayI didn't intend, it is still my
responsibility to come back andrevisit that.
Do I do that?
Well, every time?
No, my husband will tell you.
It is difficult for me to saysorry.
It is difficult for me to comeback to something, and so, even
(25:34):
with all of this knowledge andunderstanding, it is hard for me
to think through what thosethings might be, what I have
learned over the years about whomy partner needs me to be so
that we don't step on thosethings, or how I need to come to
that conversation differently,and oftentimes that takes
stepping away and revisiting itat a later time, but also not
pushing him, and I think thatthat's been the hardest and most
difficult thing for me is thatI lean into the role of wanting
(25:58):
to fix, and I thought that thatwas a helpful place to be.
It turns out most often, folksjust want you to listen, right,
they want you to see them forwho they are as they go along
this journey, because what istrue is, my husband is not who
he was in 2008 when he went toprison.
He is not who he was five yearsago when he came home, and I
(26:21):
think that that's one of theprivileges of long-term
relationships and I don't justmean in marriages, I mean like
being a parent, or being a sonand or daughter, being a loved
one of someone who has gonealong this journey that you're
very close to.
You get to see severaliterations of who this person is
(26:42):
and you get to love themthrough all of them, regardless
of what that journey might be orlook like.
Now, to offer some clarity, I'mnot talking about relationships
that are harmful or toxic.
I'm talking about relationshipsthat a person is bringing home
these metaphorical scars thatwe've been talking about and
that we are trying to help themsee the other side of.
(27:02):
So there are differences indistinguishing components of
that.
That would be a lot to get intotoday, but I want to make sure
that I distinguish ordifferentiate that.
So maybe you're realizing thatsome of your questions or habits
could be triggering to yourloved one without you even
knowing it.
Goodness, maybe you're the onewho's just trying to breathe,
(27:26):
trying to feel safe in a worldthat still feels like it's
watching your every move, andthe truth is you're not alone.
Neither of those people in thatcircumstance are alone.
Healing happens in relationship.
It happens through repair.
It does not happen throughperfection.
It happens when people show up,imperfectly but consistently.
(27:47):
So let me offer you thisaffirmation today.
I am learning to see beyond thebehavior, to the brain behind
it.
Love can look like safety,space and showing up again
tomorrow.
Take that with you into yourweek, into your conversations,
into your moments of frustrationand tenderness, and if you mess
(28:09):
up, it's okay.
Keep learning and loving andlistening.
You are doing hard work, we aredoing hard work, our loved ones
coming home are doing hard work, and every single time that we
choose empathy over enforcementand connection over control, we
are creating that legacy ofhealing.
We are facilitating that.
(28:30):
So it is important for us tocontinue to show up here today,
not to control or fix, but towitness support and love with
patience and presence.
Scars tell a story, but they donot define the future.
Thank you so much for joining mefor this shorter episode of
Lockdown to Legacy, my soloepisode this week.
(28:51):
I'm paying my husband back fortaking it solo for me while I
was sick last week.
If you're walking this path,whether you're the one who's
coming home or the one that'swaiting at the door, you are
part of a story that matters.
And if you found this helpful,consider sharing it with someone
who needs to hear it.
And if you have a story of yourown you would like to share,
anonymous or not, we would loveto hear from you.
As always, you can reach out tous at stories at
(29:14):
lockdowntolegacycom, or you canreach out on any of our social
media sites.
Until next time, keep building,keep loving and keep showing up
.
Take care, y'.
Hey everybody and welcome back to another episode
of Lockdown to Legacy.
I am your co-host, debbie Jones, and I am here by myself today
and I'm really excited to dothis episode.
You know, lockdown to Legacy isa place where we speak truth,
share stories and build bridgesbetween incarceration and
healing, and what I'm hoping todive into today is powerful and
(00:23):
often unspoken component that isa part of reentry and that is
the scars you can't see.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about the emotional,
psychological and neurologicalimpact of incarceration and how
we can love our partners,friends, family, whomever,
through that healing.
This episode is for anyone whois loving someone who's home,
(00:44):
walking beside someonereentering the world after
prison and wondering how do Isupport them without smothering
them, how do I show up for thosewithout triggering those scars?
So let's dive deep into it.
In this first section I'm goingto kind of talk about these
invisible wounds ofincarceration that people often
carry home with them from prison, and you know the motivation, I
(01:07):
guess, or the inspiration forthis episode, has come from my
own experience in loving mypartner.
You all know the great,wonderful and amazing Remy Jones
, host of this podcast, hadspent 10 years incarcerated.
And while we throw around thisterm institutionalized and it's
not one that Remy or Iparticularly like when thinking
(01:28):
about incarceration it isapplicable in that people bring
home more than those, the waythat we love our partners, and
it shows up in the way that weshow up for each other.
(01:50):
So this was something that Remyand I navigated at the
beginnings of our relationship.
What's important here is I wasnot Remy's first relationship in
coming home from prison.
We didn't know each otherduring that time either, so
these were kind of things I cameto cold, I didn't understand,
and you know there are times Istill don't understand the
depths of this and sometimes Ido step on these triggers and
(02:13):
bring them back out.
But I wanted to share a littlebit from my own expertise in
this kind of brain-based scienceof how these things have been,
these strategies.
This understanding has beenhelpful to me as the partner of
someone who I love who had tospend quite a considerable
amount of time incarcerated.
(02:33):
So when people says scarred byincarceration, I think most
folks might picture the physicallike an injury or just the
visible toll of time served, butwe don't talk a lot about the
scars.
You can't see the ones on thebrain or the nervous system or
even the heart.
And those metaphorical scarsthe psychological and emotional
(02:58):
damage caused by prisonenvironment are similar to
physical scars in that theydon't just go away once
somebody's released.
They show up in how a personfeels, how they think, how they
trust and even how they respondto stress and how they connect
with others.
So, like I said, I want tobring a little bit of brain
science into this, becausethat's the world that I've lived
(03:19):
in in a lot of my career inbringing these trauma-informed
approaches or this understandingof the brain into how we
interact with other people.
So you're going to hear mereference some of that today as
a part of this conversation.
So, according to Dr Bruce Perry,who has written a lot of books
I recommend the book whatHappened to you he did that in
conjunction with Oprah andeverybody loves Oprah, so you
(03:41):
can pick that up.
But Dr Perry says that traumaaffects the brain from the
bottom up, meaning that thereare survival parts of the brain,
like the brain stem, that kickin long before thinking parts do
so.
If somebody has spent months,years or decades in a space
where they had to constantlyprotect themselves, they learn
(04:03):
to live in that part of thebrain, that survival part, and
that nervous system becomeswired to then scan for threats
even when the danger is nolonger present.
And that wiring it doesn't justshut off when the prison gates
open.
When I talk about this survivalbrain in different settings,
what I often tell people is justbecause the threat immediate
(04:26):
threat has gone away, so theprison environment has gone away
, your perceptions of it haven't.
You have become wired to expectthat environment.
So if you take Remy, forexample, 10 years is a long time
to have a specific routine, aspecific type of threat
consistently show up and havingto navigate that environment for
it to just now go away.
(04:47):
It doesn't work like that.
Our bodies just don't work likethat.
So here's a few ways in whichthis can show up for people, and
this is sourced from a lot ofdifferent articles.
I'm going to link all of themin the show notes today.
So you'll hear me talk aboutthe Prison Policy Institute that
(05:07):
we talk a lot about.
You'll also hear me referencean article by Dr Carrie Pettis
Davis and Stephanie Kennedy andpart of the Institute for
Justice Research and Development.
You will hear me reference anarticle from GBH done by
Dominique Farrell.
You'll hear me reference anarticle from GBH done by
Dominique Farrell.
You'll hear me referencepost-incarceration syndrome and
(05:34):
that is an AmericanPsychological Association term,
but there are a lot of articlesthat consider this.
The NIA team has a great one.
And then I also am going totalk a little bit about the
Florida Innocence Project, whodoes a lot of work around this
topic.
So all of these examples comefrom those articles.
Again, I'm going to sourcethose for you in the show notes.
(05:54):
But here's a few ways in whichthis survival brain can show up.
A person might always want toface the door when sitting in
public places, not becausethey're being difficult, but
because their body is still insurvival mode.
So being able to see the doorsand who's coming in and going
out, knowing those exits, it'sreally important.
They might jump at suddennoises or hate being touched,
(06:18):
either from behind or justgenerally.
The touch is a huge sensorypiece that sometimes feels
unsafe and avoiding large crowds.
Again, this isn't just aboutpersonality, it is about
protection.
Folks may not want to betracked constantly or asked
about their plans.
After being on surveillance andcontrol for years, simple
(06:41):
questions, even like where areyou going, can feel like parole
all over again For years.
Simple questions, even likewhere are you going, can feel
like parole all over again.
You've heard Remy and I talkabout this one at length on this
podcast, so I won't go too deep.
But a part of this.
The goal of this is for us toshare our experiences, and this
is a big one for us.
We had to learn how to navigatethis because it felt to me
(07:02):
normal in a relationship that Icould be able to ask where are
you going, or how long are yougoing to be there?
What time will you be home?
Let me know when you're leaving, work, those types of things
and even sharing location whichhas become, you know, a newer
age problem with iPhones and allthose things of technology like
(07:28):
where you just share me, shareyour location with me, then I
don't have to ask you.
That was my solution, like Idon't have to ask you when
you're going to be home becauseI can just check.
But that sense of surveillancewas really threatening to my
husband and we had to figure outhow to navigate the where are
you going without it feelinglike another life sentence.
I don't want my marriage tofeel like a life sentence or
surveillance, so it wasimportant for us to kind of
think through that, and sothat's a big one for us.
Some people might alsoexperience emotional numbness.
(07:50):
Therapists call this kind ofthe flat effect, and that's not
coldness, it's just a nervoussystem doing what it's supposed
to do, which is cope with trauma.
So you heard me mention theterm post-incarceration system,
so let me break that down alittle bit.
Post-incarceration syndrome isa term that describes a cluster
of symptoms common in folks whohave been incarcerated for a
long time, like PTSD symptoms,institutionalized behaviors,
(08:15):
social disorientation or evensubstance use disorders.
It's a response to long-termexposure to a harmful
high-stress environment, and yetwe rarely name it or offer
support for it during re-entry.
This is not common.
We talk a lot on this podcastabout transition services and
their availability within cominghome from incarceration and
(08:38):
other systems, but being awareof PICS is a next step, because
most systems don't think aboutthis or prepare families for
thinking about this, and sothat's my hope in kind of
talking about this today too, isthat us on the other side the
lovers, the family members, thesupporters we need to show up
(09:02):
differently, and we can't do soin the absence of information.
So, according to the NationalIncarceration Association.
People with PICS may feeldisconnected, anxious, withdrawn
or intensely reactive, andwithout proper support they're
likely to isolate, shut down oreven re-offend.
And let me be clear, this isnot about weakness, it's about
(09:23):
survival.
So when we say prison leavescars, we're not being poetic.
We're just being honest thatthese are real neurological,
behavioral and emotionalinjuries that require real
understanding, real compassion,real healing.
And for those of us who lovesomeone who's come home, that
means that we have to be willingto shift how we see certain
(09:45):
behaviors and not look at it asdisrespect or distance, but
adaptiveness.
And those are messages that weare being given, but it's
important that we receive themas an evidence that our partners
, our loved ones, have survived.
So next I'm going to talk alittle bit about how these scars
show up in relationships andwhy loving someone doesn't mean
(10:06):
policing them.
So stick with me.
Okay, welcome back.
So let's talk about what itmeans after someone's come home
and how we love them.
Home isn't always healing.
Being out doesn't automaticallymean being free.
Those are not the same thingsand they especially are not
(10:30):
necessarily true.
Emotionally, coming home fromprison is often painted as this
joyful, triumphant return, butfor many it's confusing and
overwhelming, and even traumaticin its own ways.
The world has moved on.
Family routines have shifted.
People expect you to just jumpin like nothing happened, and
for someone who's carrying thesescars of incarceration, that
(10:52):
can feel like being thrown intodeeper water before they've even
learned to swim.
One of the biggest issues isexpectations survival, like
(11:15):
finding a job, staying out oftrouble, managing flashbacks and
navigating a world thatsuddenly feels fast and foreign
to them, particularly dependentupon the amount of time that
they've spent behind bars.
So this is where relationshipsget tricky.
Well-meaning partners, friends,family members might start
asking questions like where areyou going?
Who are you with?
What time will you be back?
These often come from a placeof care, but to someone who just
(11:36):
left prison, they feel likesurveillance, like parole, like
being back inside, and that'swhy it's important that we don't
accidentally start policing ourpeople when they come home.
So let's flip the script.
Instead of what's your plan forthe day, I have had to shift a
little bit to is there anythingyou want to share with me about
(11:56):
your day?
Right, this gives my husbandpower in that conversation and
the ability to say as little ashe would like to, instead of,
who are you hanging out with?
I have tried things like I'dlove to know who's supporting
you these days.
There's a difference there,right, one is control.
One feels like connection andwe're aiming for connection
(12:21):
Again through thattrauma-informed lens, especially
Dr Perry's regulate relatereason model.
We understand that safety comesbefore deep conversations of
reasoning.
If a person doesn't emotionallyfeel safe in their home,
they're not going to open up andthey're not going to feel calm
and they're not going to trust.
And that's not about us failingour partners, it's about their
(12:42):
brain doing what their brain istrained to do under extreme
stress.
So the question becomes how doI show love in a way that
doesn't feel like control?
And that's what we're going totalk about next.
So let's get practical.
What does support actually looklike when your loved one is
navigating those invisible scars?
(13:03):
Because love isn't alwaysenough.
Love alone is not always enough.
We need tools, we needstrategies and we need a
trauma-informed mindset.
So let's start with thisco-regulation.
If someone's nervous system isactivated, your calm presence
can help regulate their stressresponse system.
So what that means is that ifyou see somebody who is
(13:26):
dysregulated or kind of ampingup and you're seeing that
behavioral response.
If you remain calm, you canhelp somebody else be calm.
So this might be lowering yourvoice or slowing your pace, even
softening your facialexpressions, not demanding
explanations, just being present.
Even sitting together insilence can be powerful if it
(13:48):
feels safe.
Next, we can offerpredictability without control,
creating a structure but lettingit breathe, such as hey, I'll
be making dinner at six, you'rewelcome to join, or you want me
to check in before the weekendto see what we both need?
It's not about micromanaging,it is about creating rhythm and
(14:08):
choice.
Third, we have to respect thetrauma response.
It's not personal if they don'twant to go out.
It's not a red flag if theywant to sit with their back to
the wall, and it's not rejectionif they pull away when they
feel overstimulated.
Bodies are just doing whatbodies do to survive.
And the truth is, in theenvironment in which our
(14:32):
partners have come from, theyhad to do a lot to survive.
According to the FloridaInnocence Project, many
returning citizens experiencethings like survivor's guilt,
emotional shutdown anddisconnect from their
surroundings, and unless thosearound them recognize this is
what it is, it often leads tomisunderstanding, conflict and
withdrawal.
So here are a few things that wecan do.
(14:53):
First, make space for quietmoments without pressure.
Second, invite but don't insist.
Third, learn aboutpost-incarceration syndrome and
how it might show up.
And fourth, focus on sharedrituals.
My husband and I like to sharemusic.
We don't like the same musicindividually, but there's a
(15:15):
specific kind of music we cometo together, and so we've
created a couple of playlistsand we play them.
When we do other things that weenjoy doing together, like
going on a walk or cooking, weplay our shared playlist because
those activities don't requireintense emotional labor, but
they allow us to buildconnection over time and, above
all else, be patient.
Healing is not linear.
(15:35):
There will be good days, therewill be hard days, but every
time we choose empathy overenforcement, we help soften up
those scars.
We become part of the healingenvironment, and that's what
we're leaning into.
Next is what healing can reallylook like and why.
We don't need all of theanswers to be part of the
solution.
(15:55):
So the truth is that healingdoesn't look like what most of
us expect.
It doesn't always look likesomeone opening up the right way
.
It doesn't always sound likesomeone saying I need help, and
it rarely happens on a timelinethat we can predict.
Healing, especially afterincarceration, is nonlinear.
It takes time, it takes safetyand it takes relationship.
(16:17):
But the good news is that thebrain can change.
With enough repetition andconsistency and safe connection,
even the most deeply wiredtrauma responses can soften.
Framework really shines that wetalked about from Dr Perry
earlier.
When we first relate, what wemean is breathing together,
(16:38):
listening to calming music,cooking side by side, going for
a walk in rhythm.
Anything that activates thoselower parts of the brain in a
predictable and safe way canhelp in calming the nervous
system.
Then we lean into relationship.
That's that relate part.
So after regulation we buildthat connection and that could
be just laughing together orwatching a favorite show or
(17:01):
sharing stories from childhood.
We don't have to start with thetrauma, but we do have to start
with the relationship.
As I mentioned, remy and I, youknow, got together after his
obvious incarceration, but wedidn't know each other while he
was incarcerated.
And so what I wanted to do,particularly at the beginning,
(17:22):
when our relationship was stillnew, we had a lot of connection
right that you often do in thosehoneymoon periods you lean into
each other and that learning ofeach other.
But I had to recognize that hedeserved space to share at a
pace that was fair to him.
Now I got to give Remy props.
You have heard him say, aswe've talked about our love
(17:44):
story before, that it was reallyimportant for him, on like one
of our very first phone calls,after we had been talking, you
know, via text or email for acouple of weeks, for him to say
hey, I need to let you know thatI've been previously
incarcerated and it's not fairto you or to me if I don't move
forward without letting you know.
And it wasn't a deal breakerfor me, it didn't matter to me
(18:07):
that he had been previouslyincarcerated and I didn't even
ask at that time for what itwasn't.
That didn't matter.
I very much believe inrehabilitation, so none of those
things were concerns or redflags to me.
What was important is that hewas able to share at a pace that
was determined by him, and Ihad to lean back a little bit
(18:31):
and lean back into thatregulation and relationship,
because I really wanted to startwith the trauma.
I wanted to understand thethings he might be experiencing
at home and you know part ofthat is this is the work I do on
a day-to-day basis, right.
So even as a trauma-informedpractitioner, even as somebody
who does this in the day-to-dayworld, I was like, well, tell me
about it, tell me about it.
(18:52):
And I did the thing I'm notsupposed to do, right, because
we're human and that's what wedo.
But I had to pull back andreally think through what
matters to me in building thisrelationship with this person.
This is a thing that I see as apotential long-term thing for
me, and it's important that wefind things that we like to do
(19:14):
together.
And I think, particularly forfolks who who maybe have gone
through part of the relationshipwith each other and that person
was incarcerated and nowthey're transitioning home, this
might look a little differentfor you, right, because you were
there, at least on phone orvideo chat, throughout part of
that incarceration, so you knowwhat that environment was like
(19:36):
for them, but in the transitionhome that's harder.
It's harder to identify whatthose shared things are for you
now that this environment nolonger exists.
Remy and I didn't have that samebarrier because we didn't have
a relationship during hisincarceration, nor was I his
first relationship in cominghome, but we still had to do a
(19:57):
lot of the learning, so we hadto figure out that we don't
share a lot of the same taste inmusic.
I do not like to watch movies,and he really loves movies.
We had to figure out what ourdifferences were so that we
could understand then.
What does it mean for us toregulate together?
What does it mean for us tohave relationship together?
(20:18):
And at the end of the day, itwas connection.
It was all rooted in connectionfor us, and it was important
that we leaned into that.
So only after we had thatunderstanding could we then move
into the reasoning.
That's where the deepconversations happen, not just
about the past and the pain, butthe goals.
And trying to reason againwithout relationship or
(20:39):
regulation just leads toshutdown and conflict.
So here's what healing mightlook like in real time.
This could be choosing to staypresent when you would normally
withdraw, saying no to an oldpattern and yes to something new
, asking for space instead ofexploding in anger, or
(21:01):
initiating a hug, a joke or amoment of connection.
All of those things are reallysmall, right, but they are huge
to the person that we are loving.
Through this healing right, itis crucial that we step back and
say what is our role andresponsibility in this?
(21:23):
You might've listened to thisepisode thus far and been like,
well, that's a lot for me to do,and them not taking ownership
of their trauma, right, likethey're not doing any of the
healing.
I'm doing all of the healing,and so here's the way that they
should have to show up too, likeit shouldn't all just be on me.
We've heard that before and Ithink that's true.
People are responsible to workthrough their own trauma, and
(21:52):
nor is it your responsibility tomake sure everybody is good.
It's not your responsibility tofix anybody, and what I would
counter is that we do have aresponsibility for showing what
is possible.
As I talked about earlier,safety comes in the form of
predictability.
Safety comes in the form ofconsistency.
Safety comes in the form ofpresence, and when we deprive
that of our partner because theyare still working through some
(22:17):
things, then we just make itthat much harder for them to
work through the things.
But instead, if we step backand say, okay, here are these
metaphorical scars, here arethese things that my partner is
struggling with, my loved one isstruggling with, how are the
ways in which I show up?
What are the small things thatI can tweak?
These aren't difficult things.
(22:38):
The language changes I'veoffered are not difficult to do.
Choosing to stay present whenwe might normally withdraw or
they might normally withdraw,isn't difficult.
Saying no to an old pattern andyes to something new
challenging in the moment, butnot difficult overall.
Asking for space instead ofgetting angry.
(23:00):
It's easy for us to escalatewhen somebody else has escalated
right.
That's why fights happen,that's why arguments occur.
But if we can hold on and askfor some space and step away
from that and revisit when wehave an ability to, we're going
to see a deeper level of healing.
(23:21):
And then initiating a hug, ajoke, a moment of connection.
These are things that we wantwith moment of connection.
These are things that we wantwith our partner anyway.
These are things we want withour loved ones anyway.
So being able to share that inreal time allows our person to
know that we are consistentlysafe.
You don't have to be atherapist to help somebody heal.
(23:42):
You just have to be consistent,kind, curious and willing to
show up.
And if we are walking alongsidesomebody on this journey, we
are helping them rewire thattrauma.
We are helping them toliterally rewire their brains
and that is sacred work.
You may not think it is.
(24:03):
I'm letting you know what youare doing is sacred work.
We are helping someone believethat freedom doesn't just mean
out of prison.
It means being safe and seenand supported and that, my
friends, is where legacy begins.
Before we wrap up, I want toleave some space for reflection.
(24:23):
If this episode stirredsomething in you, whether you're
someone who's coming home,someone who is loving somebody
through this process, I want youto know that it's okay to feel
all the things.
There is no perfect way to dothis.
I think that what I can shareabout my almost five-year
marriage at this point is that,like every other marriage, there
(24:46):
are ups and downs, but what istruly important for me in
supporting my partner is theunderstanding that I'm likely
going to get it wrong and I'mlikely going to continue to
activate some triggers.
There are things that I justcan't plan or solve for, things
that I just can't plan or solvefor, and when I step on that and
(25:06):
the situation blows up in a wayI didn't intend, it is still my
responsibility to come back andrevisit that.
Do I do that?
Well, every time?
No, my husband will tell you.
It is difficult for me to saysorry.
It is difficult for me to comeback to something, and so, even
(25:34):
with all of this knowledge andunderstanding, it is hard for me
to think through what thosethings might be, what I have
learned over the years about whomy partner needs me to be so
that we don't step on thosethings, or how I need to come to
that conversation differently,and oftentimes that takes
stepping away and revisiting itat a later time, but also not
pushing him, and I think thatthat's been the hardest and most
difficult thing for me is thatI lean into the role of wanting
(25:58):
to fix, and I thought that thatwas a helpful place to be.
It turns out most often, folksjust want you to listen, right,
they want you to see them forwho they are as they go along
this journey, because what istrue is, my husband is not who
he was in 2008 when he went toprison.
He is not who he was five yearsago when he came home, and I
(26:21):
think that that's one of theprivileges of long-term
relationships and I don't justmean in marriages, I mean like
being a parent, or being a sonand or daughter, being a loved
one of someone who has gonealong this journey that you're
very close to.
You get to see severaliterations of who this person is
(26:42):
and you get to love themthrough all of them, regardless
of what that journey might be orlook like.
Now, to offer some clarity, I'mnot talking about relationships
that are harmful or toxic.
I'm talking about relationshipsthat a person is bringing home
these metaphorical scars thatwe've been talking about and
that we are trying to help themsee the other side of.
(27:02):
So there are differences indistinguishing components of
that.
That would be a lot to get intotoday, but I want to make sure
that I distinguish ordifferentiate that.
So maybe you're realizing thatsome of your questions or habits
could be triggering to yourloved one without you even
knowing it.
Goodness, maybe you're the onewho's just trying to breathe,
(27:26):
trying to feel safe in a worldthat still feels like it's
watching your every move, andthe truth is you're not alone.
Neither of those people in thatcircumstance are alone.
Healing happens in relationship.
It happens through repair.
It does not happen throughperfection.
It happens when people show up,imperfectly but consistently.
(27:47):
So let me offer you thisaffirmation today.
I am learning to see beyond thebehavior, to the brain behind
it.
Love can look like safety,space and showing up again
tomorrow.
Take that with you into yourweek, into your conversations,
into your moments of frustrationand tenderness, and if you mess
(28:09):
up, it's okay.
Keep learning and loving andlistening.
You are doing hard work, we aredoing hard work, our loved ones
coming home are doing hard work, and every single time that we
choose empathy over enforcementand connection over control, we
are creating that legacy ofhealing.
We are facilitating that.
(28:30):
So it is important for us tocontinue to show up here today,
not to control or fix, but towitness support and love with
patience and presence.
Scars tell a story, but they donot define the future.
Thank you so much for joining mefor this shorter episode of
Lockdown to Legacy, my soloepisode this week.
(28:51):
I'm paying my husband back fortaking it solo for me while I
was sick last week.
If you're walking this path,whether you're the one who's
coming home or the one that'swaiting at the door, you are
part of a story that matters.
And if you found this helpful,consider sharing it with someone
who needs to hear it.
And if you have a story of yourown you would like to share,
anonymous or not, we would loveto hear from you.
As always, you can reach out tous at stories at
(29:14):
lockdowntolegacycom, or you canreach out on any of our social
media sites.
Until next time, keep building,keep loving and keep showing up
.
Take care, y'.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.