April 2, 2025 • 35 mins
Synthetic marijuana has created a perfect storm of danger, addiction, and economic exploitation behind prison walls. In this compelling exploration, host Remie Jones draws from personal experience and a PJP article to reveal how this deceptively named substance is transforming correctional facilities across America.
The economics are staggering—a single sheet of paper sprayed with synthetic cannabinoids can fetch up to $3,000 in prison. This creates powerful incentives for smuggling operations that often compromise the integrity of prison staff and vendors who find the financial temptation overwhelming.
Unlike natural cannabis, synthetic marijuana (known variously as K2, Spice, or Deuce) produces effects more akin to psychedelics, leading to disturbing hallucinations and erratic behavior. Remie shares haunting firsthand accounts highlighting both the drug's potency and the desperation for escape that permeates prison environments.
The episode traces the unlikely origins of these compounds to legitimate scientific research repurposed by manufacturers seeking recreational drugs. Within prison walls, consumption has evolved into ritualistic practices leaving distinctive burn patterns that resemble flame trails across cell walls.
Beyond exposing the mechanics of this crisis, Remie challenges listeners to consider deeper questions about addiction, mental health, and the conditions of confinement that drive people to seek chemical escape regardless of consequences. The synthetic marijuana epidemic reveals fundamental failures in how we approach rehabilitation and underscores the urgent need for meaningful prison reform.
Join the conversation about prison reform by following Lockdown the Legacy on social media and sharing this episode to help amplify voices from behind bars.
Source:
https://prisonjournalismproject.org/2025/03/20/what-synthetic-marijuana-has-done-to-my-prison/
Hey Legacy Family! Don't forget to check us out via email or our socials. Here's a list:
Our Website!: https://www.lockdown2legacy.com
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lockdown.2.legacy
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Lockdown2Legacy
InstaGram: https://www.instagram.com/lockdown2legacy/
You can also help support the Legacy movement at these links:
Buy Me A Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/storiesF
PayPal: paypal.me/Lockdown2Legacy
Buzzsprout Tips: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2086791/support
Also, check out the folks who got us together:
Music by: FiyahStartahz
https://soundcloud.com/fiyahstartahz
Cover art by: Timeless Acrylics
https://www.facebook.com/geremy.woods.94
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up Legacy Crew .
Welcome back to another episodeof Lockdown on Legacy.
Of course, I'm your host, remyJones, and today guess what you
got me all to yourselves I'msolo.
Dj really wanted to be on thisepisode but unfortunately she
fell under the weather, so she'sgoing to sit this one out.
But don't worry, you're in goodhands.
Alright, this week we're goingto pick up where we left off.
(00:29):
Last week, you know, we talkedabout prison censorship and we
kind of alluded to the fact thatwe had another article lined up
which, in fact, was about druguse inside of prisons.
This article is called myPrison Is Going Up In Smoke With
Synthetic Marijuana and it isby Jeremy K Phillips, written on
March 20th 2025.
So this article is actuallyabout something that I have
spoke on before on the podcastand some of our early season one
(00:52):
episodes, and that is about.
It kind of aligns with a fewdifferent episodes actually.
So we talk about hustles.
We kind of talked about some ofthe stuff you can get in prison
contraband-wise.
So those are actually twodifferent episodes.
You can go ahead and checkthose out if you want to dig
deep, but at the time ofrightness, Jeremy was in the
(01:16):
East Hall of Arkansas Departmentof Corrections, cummings Unit,
and he describes how it was sorowdy and he just saw it spiral
downward because of theintroduction of synthetic
marijuana.
Now, this synthetic marijuanahas a lot of different nicknames
, street names or whatever.
Some of them you know.
(01:37):
One of the most common ones isspice.
Some other people call it deuceor what do we call this?
K2 is what we call it here inOhio, and this stuff is crazy,
man.
I don't even know why they callit synthetic marijuana because,
honestly, the effects of it arenothing like smoking weed I had
(02:00):
to more closely with apsychedelic like mushrooms or
maybe even acid, especially whenyou consider the way it's
conveyed into a prison.
I would definitely associate itmore with acid.
It is fully synthetic, likethere's nothing natural about
this, and it is commonly foundin many different forms, most
(02:26):
often especially Jeremy, hetalks about it in this article
it was usually smuggled into theprison on paper, which is
really hard to detect.
And another way it's hard todetect is it does not show up on
most common drug urinalysisexams, so it's easy to get away
(02:47):
with it.
It's pretty much the drug ofchoice for inmates.
Now, this article, man, it kindof brought back some memories
for real, because this dudebrought up some stuff that I
kind of forgot about and I don'tknow if it was because I just
(03:09):
suppressed the memories or if Ijust didn't really think about
it too much.
But the prevalence of thisstuff in prison, I mean it kind
of ebbs and flows, it rises andfalls for real, and when it's
bad, you know, like everybody inthe prison I don't care if it's
(03:29):
in your unit or not Like youknow, when shit's bad and the
staff just gets so justaggravated and frustrated with
trying to track it down, but Imean stuff moves, like you hear
stuff and your whole stash ismoved before they can get to you
and it's really like playingwhack-a-mole in a way you know.
(03:53):
So while we dive into this,first I want to talk about the
hustle part of Deuce, which Imentioned before in one of our
early episodes.
The reason why, or at least onereason why, it's so prevalent
is because of the economicalvalue of it.
I mentioned that it's oftensmuggled in on sheets of paper,
(04:15):
so it takes a kind of anorganization, you know, to get
this off.
Usually an inmate has someoneon the outside who has to go
through the process of gettingsome type of synthetic liquefied
cannabinoid and they spray itonto this paper, you know.
And then they let it dry andyou know, now it's time to
(04:39):
transport.
You can transport, I mean, ahundred sheets of this stuff in
one go if you've got the rightcourier.
And unfortunately that calls into question the integrity of
vendors that go inside theprison, of staff members that go
inside the prison, whether theybe on the administrative side,
(05:00):
on the clerical side, or even onthe security side, officers and
such.
But I mean it's paper, right?
I mean I don't care if it'sblank paper, I don't care if
it's printed on paper, it'spaper and it's real, unassuming.
So when we talk about theeconomical value and how that
could draw into questionsomeone's ethics and why, you
(05:24):
know most people like why arethey willing to take this risk?
Like it's not worth it?
But the value of a single sheetof paper, like a full what is
it?
Eight and a half by 11 orsomething like sheet of printer
paper could be up to $3,000 forone sheet of paper.
So most often, you know peoplearen't selling full sheets,
(05:45):
they're cutting them up intotiny strips.
You know they're like an inchlong or something like that, and
you know they're getting a manlike that.
You can fold it up, put it in agum wrapper if you wanted to.
However, you get it in.
When you approach somebody as aninmate and you're like, hey man
, my people are here, I need youto bring this in.
(06:06):
They're going to give it to youin a parking lot, whatever, or
they're going to meet you atWalmart or whatever.
And you really think like youstand behind that oath that you
took, or you know your ethics orwhatever it is, and you're like
no, and they're like man, comeon, bro, I'll give you $1,000
per trip.
And you're like, what the fuck?
$1,000?
(06:27):
How can you afford to give me$1,000 per trip?
And if you're not reallyeducated on the economics of it
and you start doing the mathlike man, I can probably bring
this in like three times in aweek Like, yeah, I'll give you
$1,000 per trip, all right.
Well, maybe I'm willing to bendsome rules a little bit, and
(06:49):
I'm sure the first time you're alittle skeptical, you know.
But as soon as you get thatfirst payment, all of a sudden
it's the staff side that'sprobably pushing like, hey man,
come on, let's do this again.
You know it's not even theinmate driving the show anymore.
The staff probably like I needthat, come on.
And the sheer like, fuckinglike.
(07:16):
This is crazy to be.
To imagine yourself in a setting, you know, like you're inside a
prison cell, most people thinklike in prison you ain't got
shit right, you're at the lowestpoint of your life, but thirst
for survival, man, that's whatit is.
So imagine being inside thisprison cell and you're
exchanging a sheet of paper tosomebody and you're saying hey,
(07:39):
man, have your family send thatmoney to my family, you know,
and you basically you wait untilyou get the confirmation.
Man, have your family send thatmoney to my family and you
basically you wait until you getthe confirmation.
Nowadays it's even fasterbecause we just talked about it,
you got electroniccommunications.
Now you can get an emailmessage or something within
(08:00):
minutes, most times justconfirming like hey, man, your
friend dropped that off, great.
So now boom, you exchange thispiece of paper or you know
little strips of paper orwhatever, and you're about your
business.
It doesn't look suspicious atall.
Like nobody can say like, ohman, I just seen them exchange
drugs.
You like, you know, hey, I drewthis picture for you and just
(08:23):
have a piece of paper lined upbehind it.
Here you go.
You could do it in front of aCEO and nobody would be the
wiser.
So it's really hard to trackdown, it's really hard to put it
into and then you really mosttimes don't even know that it's
in there until the symptoms ofit start.
So Jeremy talked about, andmostly stressed about, the
(08:46):
effects that it had on hishousing unit and on the safety
of people in the housing unit.
Some of the symptoms that hediscussed was you kind of knew
what was going on, because allof a sudden prison time was a
lot more dangerous.
All of a sudden prison time wasa lot more dangerous, like for
absolutely what seemed likeabsolutely no reason.
(09:08):
All of a sudden there was aheightened sense of violence and
criminal activity, extortion,theft, just downright, you know,
violent altercations andeverything.
And it was all basically off ofhow can I get more of this?
You know, uh, people had tofeed their addiction and so
(09:36):
basically, like I can remember,you know from my own personal
experience, when stuff gotstolen so much that it kind of
just became community property,like and this is when I'm I was
in Toledo correctional and theyhad just recently doubled the
population, which Toledo wasbuilt to be a super max prison,
(09:57):
a single man sales, but you knowit's all about money.
So they doubled the prisonpopulation and because there
wasn't enough amenities andbecause now all of a sudden you
got twice as much drug activityor this and that people just did
stuff out of boredom, all typesof stuff.
But it's really hard when yougot stuff and you're not a
(10:23):
fighter, because somebody goessteal your stuff before you can
drum up the courage to go get itback.
Someone's already stole it fromthem and that was.
That was a hard time, man.
That was probably when I didmost of my fighting in prison
and that's probably when I alsohad a lot of people that I
(10:44):
refused to hang out with.
Like I made one dude leave hiscell.
He was in the cell next to me.
I made him we called it checkin.
I made him go up to the CEO andtell him, like you know, I want
to go to the hall, and thereason why I did it is because
he kept letting people steal hisstuff and he wouldn't stand up
to him.
So I felt like he drew too muchof the wrong type of attention
(11:08):
to my area, but anyway, that's adigression.
So Jeremy talks in an articleabout the rise in violence and
criminal activity, extortion,theft and fighting, and it was
all to feed that addiction andthat is something I can totally
relate to.
But that's also something thatI can honestly say.
(11:30):
Drug use is not something thatthe institution really cares
about until the side effects ofdrug use start to spill over
into their domain.
You know when all of a suddenyou have to explain why there's
a rise in fights and thefts andreports of extortion and all
(11:54):
this stuff, that's when it'slike all right, we got to crack
down.
When you just see inmates highand whatever, they don't care
about that, they don't careabout that.
Now, when it comes to the otherside of that, we all know the
economic side, which weexplained.
We know the safety side of itand you know that's cool.
(12:18):
If you're just a person tryingto do your time, I'm telling you
it's the most annoying thingever to be in the middle of this
because there's nowhere you cango.
You know there's no reliefreally.
But on the other side, thehealth risks, you know the
unpredictable effects, thisstuff, like I said, it's not
(12:39):
like weed, where you know youget a little lightheaded, you
know you kind of get that littlehappy buzz feeling and you
might get a little hungry.
No, it's not really like thatand I really don't understand
why they call it syntheticmarijuana, because it's nothing
like that.
I've personally seen a wholeslew of side effects from this
(13:02):
stuff.
Slew of side effects from thisstuff, like I actually had a
friend.
I ain't going to name themnames because you know some of
my dudes still locked up and youknow names are pretty specific.
But I seen one guy we werewatching a movie in the chapel
of all places and it was a scenein the movie where this dude
(13:26):
was fighting a dragon and he hada samurai sword or something
and the dragon spews fire at himand he slices the fire in half
with the sword.
Pretty cool scene.
But my dude lost it.
He was high off this K2 deucesynthetic marijuana and it makes
(13:47):
you hallucinate and so he, reallife, flipped out of his chair
and started rolling on theground and like running around
the room and shit.
And I mean you know it's atleast one CO in there, you got
the chaplain in there, you gotabout 40 inmates in there and
(14:07):
the lights is low and this dudestarts freaking out and
everybody's trying to figure outwhat the hell's going on.
And later I talked to him Ofcourse this was months later
because you know he ended upgoing to the hole and medical
and all this other stuff but hetold me that basically he
thought that the fire from thedragon was on him.
(14:30):
So he just freaked out andstarted rolling around the
ground and everything because hethought he was on fire.
And I at first I thought he wasjoking, but of course, like
I've seen this with my own eyesand I'm like what the fuck dude
like, why would you keep doingthis?
And of course, like I've seenthis with my own eyes and I'm
like what the fuck dude Like,why would you keep doing this?
And of course he did it againbecause that's the nature of the
beast.
(14:52):
Another instance I was walkingback from a visit and I saw this
guy who was just laying in thegrass, looked like he was
swimming.
Laying in the grass, lookedlike he was swimming and it was
at that time it was so prevalentthat other inmates had not even
paid attention to him, likethey walked right by him because
they already knew what it wasand, you know, a CO hadn't done
(15:16):
the rounds yet.
So, basically, dude was justswimming in the grass and nobody
paid him attention.
And I think the only otherinstance of like really tripping
out that I seen, um, I had cameinto a different block.
Uh, I don't know if I was liketrying to get a friend or
(15:38):
something out of there, but Ihad walked into this block and
I'm talking to the CEO at thedesk and all of a sudden this
dude comes running.
He's on the top range and he'sscreaming like somebody's
chasing him and he jumps off thetop range and like crashes down
below onto this table wheredudes are playing dominoes and
(16:02):
the sheer, like like shock oneverybody's face, like what the
hell just happened.
This dude I mean we're talkingabout like 30 feet up, you know,
from the top range to thebottom, and this dude just ran
full speed and jumped off likehe did not know that that was a
fall and I'm like man, Icouldn't understand, I couldn't
(16:26):
wrap my head around it.
But, like I said, if you're inthere and you see the
deterioration of the virusaround you, it makes you uneasy.
And these drugs have been aroundfrom roughly around 2008,.
(16:49):
But that is only when they werediscovered to be used as
synthetic marijuana or othersynthetic drugs like cocaine and
everything Cocaine andeverything which you guys might
(17:33):
know as bath salts that werebeing snorted as cocaine and had
everybody turn how this guynamed John Huffman, who was a
retired organic chemistryprofessor from Clemson
University, played a major rolein creating these compounds,
these chemical compounds that gointo the synthetic weed and
cocaine and whatever.
And basically he talks abouthow, in the early 1990s, he was
(17:57):
a biochemist and they haddiscovered a part of the body
called the cannabinoid receptor,and they said that basically,
in addition to getting potsmokers high, this receptor
seemed to be involved with allsorts of important things like
sleep, appetite, pain and someother things, which was a whole
(18:18):
new horizon for potentialmedicines.
That's a quote from the NPRorgarticle.
Now, that's a quote from theNPRorg article.
But basically, before theycould figure out how it worked,
they had to figure out how ittriggered, what things affected
it and how.
And so Huffman was one of thescientists that was tasked with
(18:40):
figuring it out and he thought,man, this is going to be a fun
little puzzle we're going to do.
And so they synthesized over300 new compounds and they
published it all of theirfindings and formulas in a
scientific journal and they saidfor about 10 years, that was it
.
Nothing ever came of it.
But then, around the end of 2008, huffman received a message
(19:04):
from a blogger from Germany andthey're saying hey, man, your
chemical compounds have beendiscovered in a drug called
Spice.
And he was like what the fuckare you talking about?
Well, spice was actually theofficial name.
It was the brand name of aproduct being sold as an herbal
(19:24):
incense and, of course, it waslabeled, not for human
consumption, but I mean what islabeled for human consumption in
the drug world, right?
I mean other than the big pillpushers.
But it was like this was beingsold in corner stores, in these
(19:47):
one-off hot topics and odds andends stores or whatever where
you can get your vapes andeverything.
And it was just right there,right next to the register,
labeled incense and, of course,kids.
It was like, ah, let's smokethis.
And then it blew their top offand it was like, oh shit, and it
(20:09):
spread like wildfire.
So the actual chemical name wasJWH-018.
And Huffman says it was the18th compound that they had
synthesized and it was reallypotent, but they never thought
anything about it.
But the problem came, accordingto this article, that of course
(20:32):
some very money-minded peopletook the exact recipe from his
research that was published andthey started mass producing in
China and they started boom,shooting it all around the world
.
And so all of a sudden, thisvery which I mean that's the
(20:54):
case with most things is thisvery innocent thing or this you
know very ambitious persondeveloped something for
productive use, you know,responsible use in research, and
it was abused and developedverbatim.
I mean whatever.
(21:14):
It was a Zach replica of hisresearch and it was developed.
It was like, hey, we're goingto use this for something else
because it feels good.
So last thing I mentioned aboutthis NPR article.
You know I'll put it in theshow notes, but basically and
Huffman says that he still tothis day gets emails and other
(21:38):
forms of communications frompeople who are claiming that
this drug has ruined their livesor their kids' lives or someone
else that they know, and theyblame it all on him.
And I mean that's kind ofunfortunate, because he did not
intend that, he did not developit for that purpose, he did not
distribute it or anything else,but some other people did and it
(22:03):
was his research.
But I find that very unfair,man.
You know, going off on one ofmy side notes again, I find that
so unfair because everythingthat, nearly everything that is
negative in this world, wasdeveloped for some type of
responsible use.
I mean we have diseases outhere that are the byproduct of
(22:33):
some scientist research gettingloose.
We the opioid crisis.
You know it's from someresponsible use drugs that end
up getting people hooked.
I mean we had SARS and H1N1.
And what's the one where, like,people were putting it in the
mail and stuff?
Yeah, I mean hell, cocaine, allof it.
(22:58):
It all started as somethinggood and got out of hand.
So I can't put that on him, man, and I won't, I'm not going to
do that.
But when we get back to thestreet level and prison level,
consumption of it, it's sad, man, and you know it's much bigger
(23:20):
than that.
You know it's much bigger thanthe localized focus of it.
But to see the effects, to seethe effects it has on people in
society is bad enough, but tosee the effects of it in prison
in such a controlled environment, it's like basically seeing,
(23:42):
you know, some widespread virusin a petri dish and watching it
just totally take over.
It's horrible, jeremy.
In his article he talks abouthow he ended up seeing somebody
get stabbed right in front ofhim over a sack of commissary
items so that somebody couldtrade it for more of this deuce
(24:05):
you know K2, spice, whateverdrug and on another occasion he
says he saw a man beaten with alock and a sock over a few
sticks worth of the drug Nowsticks.
He explains what thedenominations of this deuce is.
So he says that small sectionsare called dots and that's about
(24:26):
a quarter inch square and theygo for about one to three
dollars.
And then you have slugs whichare about a half inch to one
inch squares and they go forfive to ten dollars.
And then you have slugs whichare about a half inch to one
inch squares and they go for $5to $10.
And then you have what's calledan ID and it is about the size
of a driver's license and itcosts between $50 and $100.
(24:48):
And then sometimes you can geta whole sheet of paper sold as
is, which is eight and a half by11, and it can sell anywhere
from $1,000 to $3,000, which isfreaking, mind-blowing man that
is.
That's wicked.
So to be honest, I never, reallyI never really seen the actual
(25:13):
consumption of this drug.
You know, I always assumed thatit was just rolled up and
smoked just like weed.
You know, in prison I've oftenseen that guys use the Bible
paper, like the little tinybooks that are given out for
free of, like Psalms or Proverbsor something.
They use those as like rollingpapers.
But Jeremy describes adifferent method which I've
(25:39):
never really heard of.
Actually, just real quick, theepisode art for the last episode
was inspired by his descriptionof how the drug is consumed, so
the billowing smoke coming outof the cell doors and everything
that was inspired by hisdescription.
So he describes that wicks aremade out of a length of tightly
(26:04):
twisted toilet paper to form athin rope and then one end is
lit and the flame blown out toallow the chair to slowly burn.
This is verbatim reading fromthe article.
Deuce users use the wicks tolight sticks similar to a
marijuana joint but filled withthe cut up slivers of the deuce
(26:27):
paper Rolled out of thin Biblepaper.
Oh look, how about that?
The wicks themselves aretypically hung on the back walls
of the open barracks.
And then he says that you cansee the black ash collected in
heaps on the floor from all ofthe wicks, burning that back
(26:47):
there, and how nauseating thesmoke is and how thick it hangs
in the air.
Um, he says, over the past fewyears the WIC's brown burn
trails have started to overlapas they spread across the wall,
and the back wall of everybarrack in East Hall now looks
like actual flames have lickedthe wall.
(27:08):
That is a very potentdescription that he painted
there, a very vivid descriptionthat he painted there.
A very vivid description thathe painted there.
And very sad, man.
It's sad because, I mean, I'vedabbled in drugs, man, I will
never sit there and act like Ihaven't.
(27:29):
I've done quite a few.
I wouldn't say quite a few,I've done a few, quite a few, I
wouldn't say quite a few, I'vedone a few.
But to now be, you know, asober, living person with sound
mind and walking I mean throughhis description, walking in a
place like that and just to seeall the telltale signs, man,
(27:52):
it's like wow, it's a lot, man,it's a lot.
And I can only imagine thefrustration of the other inmates
and the staff members andpretty much just like what you
going to do.
You know what can you do?
(28:13):
Besides, I mean some of themore taboo things, like, if
you're an inmate, what you goingto do?
You going to snitch?
To be honest, man, would iteven help?
I mean, when it's thatprevalent like he talks about
multiple people in this one unitbeing dealers Would it even
help?
I mean, it's probably moredangerous than it is beneficial.
Now, I know we talked about howfrustrating it can be,
(28:34):
especially if you're anotherinmate that doesn't mess around
with this stuff, or if you're astaff member and you're trying
to figure out a way to crackdown on it.
The reality is, man, as far asI know, as far as I feel,
there's really nothing to bedone about it, you know, except
for, you know, educating inmateson the dangers of it.
(28:55):
Really, because it does havesignificant health risks.
You know it's not natural weed.
I mean, hell, really, be honest, today's weed ain't even
natural weed.
But this stuff is so chemicallyladen that I mean the short
term has, you know, pretty direconsequences to your health.
So I mean, maybe educationcould stem the tide of it, but
(29:19):
really, I mean it's really hardto crack down on it because it's
really hard to catch it gettingsmuggled in.
You know, like we said, anybodycan pretty much convey it into
the prison, whether that be avisitor or most.
You know, most often staffmembers or vendors who are
(29:41):
tempted by the quick moneyBecause, you know, everybody got
money problems.
But even more creative thanthat, you know there's.
I've personally seen somepretty advanced ways of you know
conveyance.
I've seen people stuff it insoftballs and throw it over the
(30:03):
fence.
You know I've seen dronesdropping stuff on the prison
yard.
You know it's just it's reallyhard to watch every.
You know to fight a war onevery front and be a master on
every front.
You know so, naturally, stuffis going to get by.
(30:24):
So I mean, what we heard todayis more than just a story about
synthetic drugs, you know, oreven at face value, about
addiction or hustle.
I mean it's a story aboutsurvival and the systems and you
know, like everything, themechanics from each different
side.
I mean this deuce or spice,whatever you want to call it.
(30:46):
I mean it isn't just causingchaos in prison yards, like it's
revealing the deeper chaos andhow we address addiction, mental
health and rehabilitationbehind bars.
I mean, to be honest, we can'ttalk about reform without
talking about the conditionspeople are trying to survive.
I mean the conditions thatcreate demand for anything that
(31:06):
offers escape, even if it costssomeone their sanity, their
safety, or even more timebecause you can catch, or even
more time because you can catch.
You can be prosecuted for thisstuff, you know, and it could
result in them lengthening yoursentence.
So, as we continue to, you know, advocate for people on the
(31:27):
inside, to amplify voices fromthe inside, I mean I challenge
you guys out here to, I mean,really take a look at what are
we all doing to support healing,to support reentry and to
support restoration of rights,to help people with their come
(31:52):
to terms with that truth.
I mean, us here at Lockdown theLegacy, we'll just keep
repeating ourselves, you know,like until people catch on,
we'll just keep shining thelight on it, but I mean,
eventually we got to figure outa way to break this cycle.
So, with that man, I'm going toend with that.
(32:15):
Um, I'm going to take a chanceto ask you all to check us out
on social media.
You know, facebook, lockdownthe Legacy podcast, uh,
instagram, lockdown the Legacycheck me out.
I'll be posting little shortvideos and stuff there.
You know, please like,subscribe, follow.
(32:36):
You know it helps a lot and Imean I appreciate you guys who
tune in and listen.
I watch the stats and see, likeall the different cities and
countries that people tune infrom, and I mean that really
(32:56):
take a lot of pride in that andthat means a lot to me.
So thank you for that and ifany of these episodes resonate
with you, if you find theminteresting, you know, please
share it.
You know, don't just like it,but share it because we are
trying to grow.
So start a conversation, dropthat in there.
Hey, you guys should go checkout this Lockdown Legacy podcast
.
You know, plug us in turn ourlights on Um.
(33:18):
But most importantly, you know,stay tuned like, stay stay up
on you know what we got to offer, because really all we're doing
is trying to give voices to thepeople who are silenced.
You know, and with that I'mgonna let it go, peace.
What's up Legacy Crew .
Welcome back to another episodeof Lockdown on Legacy.
Of course, I'm your host, remyJones, and today guess what you
got me all to yourselves I'msolo.
Dj really wanted to be on thisepisode but unfortunately she
fell under the weather, so she'sgoing to sit this one out.
But don't worry, you're in goodhands.
Alright, this week we're goingto pick up where we left off.
(00:29):
Last week, you know, we talkedabout prison censorship and we
kind of alluded to the fact thatwe had another article lined up
which, in fact, was about druguse inside of prisons.
This article is called myPrison Is Going Up In Smoke With
Synthetic Marijuana and it isby Jeremy K Phillips, written on
March 20th 2025.
So this article is actuallyabout something that I have
spoke on before on the podcastand some of our early season one
(00:52):
episodes, and that is about.
It kind of aligns with a fewdifferent episodes actually.
So we talk about hustles.
We kind of talked about some ofthe stuff you can get in prison
contraband-wise.
So those are actually twodifferent episodes.
You can go ahead and checkthose out if you want to dig
deep, but at the time ofrightness, Jeremy was in the
(01:16):
East Hall of Arkansas Departmentof Corrections, cummings Unit,
and he describes how it was sorowdy and he just saw it spiral
downward because of theintroduction of synthetic
marijuana.
Now, this synthetic marijuanahas a lot of different nicknames
, street names or whatever.
Some of them you know.
(01:37):
One of the most common ones isspice.
Some other people call it deuceor what do we call this?
K2 is what we call it here inOhio, and this stuff is crazy,
man.
I don't even know why they callit synthetic marijuana because,
honestly, the effects of it arenothing like smoking weed I had
(02:00):
to more closely with apsychedelic like mushrooms or
maybe even acid, especially whenyou consider the way it's
conveyed into a prison.
I would definitely associate itmore with acid.
It is fully synthetic, likethere's nothing natural about
this, and it is commonly foundin many different forms, most
(02:26):
often especially Jeremy, hetalks about it in this article
it was usually smuggled into theprison on paper, which is
really hard to detect.
And another way it's hard todetect is it does not show up on
most common drug urinalysisexams, so it's easy to get away
(02:47):
with it.
It's pretty much the drug ofchoice for inmates.
Now, this article, man, it kindof brought back some memories
for real, because this dudebrought up some stuff that I
kind of forgot about and I don'tknow if it was because I just
(03:09):
suppressed the memories or if Ijust didn't really think about
it too much.
But the prevalence of thisstuff in prison, I mean it kind
of ebbs and flows, it rises andfalls for real, and when it's
bad, you know, like everybody inthe prison I don't care if it's
(03:29):
in your unit or not Like youknow, when shit's bad and the
staff just gets so justaggravated and frustrated with
trying to track it down, but Imean stuff moves, like you hear
stuff and your whole stash ismoved before they can get to you
and it's really like playingwhack-a-mole in a way you know.
(03:53):
So while we dive into this,first I want to talk about the
hustle part of Deuce, which Imentioned before in one of our
early episodes.
The reason why, or at least onereason why, it's so prevalent
is because of the economicalvalue of it.
I mentioned that it's oftensmuggled in on sheets of paper,
(04:15):
so it takes a kind of anorganization, you know, to get
this off.
Usually an inmate has someoneon the outside who has to go
through the process of gettingsome type of synthetic liquefied
cannabinoid and they spray itonto this paper, you know.
And then they let it dry andyou know, now it's time to
(04:39):
transport.
You can transport, I mean, ahundred sheets of this stuff in
one go if you've got the rightcourier.
And unfortunately that calls into question the integrity of
vendors that go inside theprison, of staff members that go
inside the prison, whether theybe on the administrative side,
(05:00):
on the clerical side, or even onthe security side, officers and
such.
But I mean it's paper, right?
I mean I don't care if it'sblank paper, I don't care if
it's printed on paper, it'spaper and it's real, unassuming.
So when we talk about theeconomical value and how that
could draw into questionsomeone's ethics and why, you
(05:24):
know most people like why arethey willing to take this risk?
Like it's not worth it?
But the value of a single sheetof paper, like a full what is
it?
Eight and a half by 11 orsomething like sheet of printer
paper could be up to $3,000 forone sheet of paper.
So most often, you know peoplearen't selling full sheets,
(05:45):
they're cutting them up intotiny strips.
You know they're like an inchlong or something like that, and
you know they're getting a manlike that.
You can fold it up, put it in agum wrapper if you wanted to.
However, you get it in.
When you approach somebody as aninmate and you're like, hey man
, my people are here, I need youto bring this in.
(06:06):
They're going to give it to youin a parking lot, whatever, or
they're going to meet you atWalmart or whatever.
And you really think like youstand behind that oath that you
took, or you know your ethics orwhatever it is, and you're like
no, and they're like man, comeon, bro, I'll give you $1,000
per trip.
And you're like, what the fuck?
$1,000?
(06:27):
How can you afford to give me$1,000 per trip?
And if you're not reallyeducated on the economics of it
and you start doing the mathlike man, I can probably bring
this in like three times in aweek Like, yeah, I'll give you
$1,000 per trip, all right.
Well, maybe I'm willing to bendsome rules a little bit, and
(06:49):
I'm sure the first time you're alittle skeptical, you know.
But as soon as you get thatfirst payment, all of a sudden
it's the staff side that'sprobably pushing like, hey man,
come on, let's do this again.
You know it's not even theinmate driving the show anymore.
The staff probably like I needthat, come on.
And the sheer like, fuckinglike.
(07:16):
This is crazy to be.
To imagine yourself in a setting, you know, like you're inside a
prison cell, most people thinklike in prison you ain't got
shit right, you're at the lowestpoint of your life, but thirst
for survival, man, that's whatit is.
So imagine being inside thisprison cell and you're
exchanging a sheet of paper tosomebody and you're saying hey,
(07:39):
man, have your family send thatmoney to my family, you know,
and you basically you wait untilyou get the confirmation.
Man, have your family send thatmoney to my family and you
basically you wait until you getthe confirmation.
Nowadays it's even fasterbecause we just talked about it,
you got electroniccommunications.
Now you can get an emailmessage or something within
(08:00):
minutes, most times justconfirming like hey, man, your
friend dropped that off, great.
So now boom, you exchange thispiece of paper or you know
little strips of paper orwhatever, and you're about your
business.
It doesn't look suspicious atall.
Like nobody can say like, ohman, I just seen them exchange
drugs.
You like, you know, hey, I drewthis picture for you and just
(08:23):
have a piece of paper lined upbehind it.
Here you go.
You could do it in front of aCEO and nobody would be the
wiser.
So it's really hard to trackdown, it's really hard to put it
into and then you really mosttimes don't even know that it's
in there until the symptoms ofit start.
So Jeremy talked about, andmostly stressed about, the
(08:46):
effects that it had on hishousing unit and on the safety
of people in the housing unit.
Some of the symptoms that hediscussed was you kind of knew
what was going on, because allof a sudden prison time was a
lot more dangerous.
All of a sudden prison time wasa lot more dangerous, like for
absolutely what seemed likeabsolutely no reason.
(09:08):
All of a sudden there was aheightened sense of violence and
criminal activity, extortion,theft, just downright, you know,
violent altercations andeverything.
And it was all basically off ofhow can I get more of this?
You know, uh, people had tofeed their addiction and so
(09:36):
basically, like I can remember,you know from my own personal
experience, when stuff gotstolen so much that it kind of
just became community property,like and this is when I'm I was
in Toledo correctional and theyhad just recently doubled the
population, which Toledo wasbuilt to be a super max prison,
(09:57):
a single man sales, but you knowit's all about money.
So they doubled the prisonpopulation and because there
wasn't enough amenities andbecause now all of a sudden you
got twice as much drug activityor this and that people just did
stuff out of boredom, all typesof stuff.
But it's really hard when yougot stuff and you're not a
(10:23):
fighter, because somebody goessteal your stuff before you can
drum up the courage to go get itback.
Someone's already stole it fromthem and that was.
That was a hard time, man.
That was probably when I didmost of my fighting in prison
and that's probably when I alsohad a lot of people that I
(10:44):
refused to hang out with.
Like I made one dude leave hiscell.
He was in the cell next to me.
I made him we called it checkin.
I made him go up to the CEO andtell him, like you know, I want
to go to the hall, and thereason why I did it is because
he kept letting people steal hisstuff and he wouldn't stand up
to him.
So I felt like he drew too muchof the wrong type of attention
(11:08):
to my area, but anyway, that's adigression.
So Jeremy talks in an articleabout the rise in violence and
criminal activity, extortion,theft and fighting, and it was
all to feed that addiction andthat is something I can totally
relate to.
But that's also something thatI can honestly say.
(11:30):
Drug use is not something thatthe institution really cares
about until the side effects ofdrug use start to spill over
into their domain.
You know when all of a suddenyou have to explain why there's
a rise in fights and thefts andreports of extortion and all
(11:54):
this stuff, that's when it'slike all right, we got to crack
down.
When you just see inmates highand whatever, they don't care
about that, they don't careabout that.
Now, when it comes to the otherside of that, we all know the
economic side, which weexplained.
We know the safety side of itand you know that's cool.
(12:18):
If you're just a person tryingto do your time, I'm telling you
it's the most annoying thingever to be in the middle of this
because there's nowhere you cango.
You know there's no reliefreally.
But on the other side, thehealth risks, you know the
unpredictable effects, thisstuff, like I said, it's not
(12:39):
like weed, where you know youget a little lightheaded, you
know you kind of get that littlehappy buzz feeling and you
might get a little hungry.
No, it's not really like thatand I really don't understand
why they call it syntheticmarijuana, because it's nothing
like that.
I've personally seen a wholeslew of side effects from this
(13:02):
stuff.
Slew of side effects from thisstuff, like I actually had a
friend.
I ain't going to name themnames because you know some of
my dudes still locked up and youknow names are pretty specific.
But I seen one guy we werewatching a movie in the chapel
of all places and it was a scenein the movie where this dude
(13:26):
was fighting a dragon and he hada samurai sword or something
and the dragon spews fire at himand he slices the fire in half
with the sword.
Pretty cool scene.
But my dude lost it.
He was high off this K2 deucesynthetic marijuana and it makes
(13:47):
you hallucinate and so he, reallife, flipped out of his chair
and started rolling on theground and like running around
the room and shit.
And I mean you know it's atleast one CO in there, you got
the chaplain in there, you gotabout 40 inmates in there and
(14:07):
the lights is low and this dudestarts freaking out and
everybody's trying to figure outwhat the hell's going on.
And later I talked to him Ofcourse this was months later
because you know he ended upgoing to the hole and medical
and all this other stuff but hetold me that basically he
thought that the fire from thedragon was on him.
(14:30):
So he just freaked out andstarted rolling around the
ground and everything because hethought he was on fire.
And I at first I thought he wasjoking, but of course, like
I've seen this with my own eyesand I'm like what the fuck dude
like, why would you keep doingthis?
And of course, like I've seenthis with my own eyes and I'm
like what the fuck dude Like,why would you keep doing this?
And of course he did it againbecause that's the nature of the
beast.
(14:52):
Another instance I was walkingback from a visit and I saw this
guy who was just laying in thegrass, looked like he was
swimming.
Laying in the grass, lookedlike he was swimming and it was
at that time it was so prevalentthat other inmates had not even
paid attention to him, likethey walked right by him because
they already knew what it wasand, you know, a CO hadn't done
(15:16):
the rounds yet.
So, basically, dude was justswimming in the grass and nobody
paid him attention.
And I think the only otherinstance of like really tripping
out that I seen, um, I had cameinto a different block.
Uh, I don't know if I was liketrying to get a friend or
(15:38):
something out of there, but Ihad walked into this block and
I'm talking to the CEO at thedesk and all of a sudden this
dude comes running.
He's on the top range and he'sscreaming like somebody's
chasing him and he jumps off thetop range and like crashes down
below onto this table wheredudes are playing dominoes and
(16:02):
the sheer, like like shock oneverybody's face, like what the
hell just happened.
This dude I mean we're talkingabout like 30 feet up, you know,
from the top range to thebottom, and this dude just ran
full speed and jumped off likehe did not know that that was a
fall and I'm like man, Icouldn't understand, I couldn't
(16:26):
wrap my head around it.
But, like I said, if you're inthere and you see the
deterioration of the virusaround you, it makes you uneasy.
And these drugs have been aroundfrom roughly around 2008,.
(16:49):
But that is only when they werediscovered to be used as
synthetic marijuana or othersynthetic drugs like cocaine and
everything Cocaine andeverything which you guys might
(17:33):
know as bath salts that werebeing snorted as cocaine and had
everybody turn how this guynamed John Huffman, who was a
retired organic chemistryprofessor from Clemson
University, played a major rolein creating these compounds,
these chemical compounds that gointo the synthetic weed and
cocaine and whatever.
And basically he talks abouthow, in the early 1990s, he was
(17:57):
a biochemist and they haddiscovered a part of the body
called the cannabinoid receptor,and they said that basically,
in addition to getting potsmokers high, this receptor
seemed to be involved with allsorts of important things like
sleep, appetite, pain and someother things, which was a whole
(18:18):
new horizon for potentialmedicines.
That's a quote from the NPRorgarticle.
Now, that's a quote from theNPRorg article.
But basically, before theycould figure out how it worked,
they had to figure out how ittriggered, what things affected
it and how.
And so Huffman was one of thescientists that was tasked with
(18:40):
figuring it out and he thought,man, this is going to be a fun
little puzzle we're going to do.
And so they synthesized over300 new compounds and they
published it all of theirfindings and formulas in a
scientific journal and they saidfor about 10 years, that was it
.
Nothing ever came of it.
But then, around the end of 2008, huffman received a message
(19:04):
from a blogger from Germany andthey're saying hey, man, your
chemical compounds have beendiscovered in a drug called
Spice.
And he was like what the fuckare you talking about?
Well, spice was actually theofficial name.
It was the brand name of aproduct being sold as an herbal
(19:24):
incense and, of course, it waslabeled, not for human
consumption, but I mean what islabeled for human consumption in
the drug world, right?
I mean other than the big pillpushers.
But it was like this was beingsold in corner stores, in these
(19:47):
one-off hot topics and odds andends stores or whatever where
you can get your vapes andeverything.
And it was just right there,right next to the register,
labeled incense and, of course,kids.
It was like, ah, let's smokethis.
And then it blew their top offand it was like, oh shit, and it
(20:09):
spread like wildfire.
So the actual chemical name wasJWH-018.
And Huffman says it was the18th compound that they had
synthesized and it was reallypotent, but they never thought
anything about it.
But the problem came, accordingto this article, that of course
(20:32):
some very money-minded peopletook the exact recipe from his
research that was published andthey started mass producing in
China and they started boom,shooting it all around the world
.
And so all of a sudden, thisvery which I mean that's the
(20:54):
case with most things is thisvery innocent thing or this you
know very ambitious persondeveloped something for
productive use, you know,responsible use in research, and
it was abused and developedverbatim.
I mean whatever.
(21:14):
It was a Zach replica of hisresearch and it was developed.
It was like, hey, we're goingto use this for something else
because it feels good.
So last thing I mentioned aboutthis NPR article.
You know I'll put it in theshow notes, but basically and
Huffman says that he still tothis day gets emails and other
(21:38):
forms of communications frompeople who are claiming that
this drug has ruined their livesor their kids' lives or someone
else that they know, and theyblame it all on him.
And I mean that's kind ofunfortunate, because he did not
intend that, he did not developit for that purpose, he did not
distribute it or anything else,but some other people did and it
(22:03):
was his research.
But I find that very unfair,man.
You know, going off on one ofmy side notes again, I find that
so unfair because everythingthat, nearly everything that is
negative in this world, wasdeveloped for some type of
responsible use.
I mean we have diseases outhere that are the byproduct of
(22:33):
some scientist research gettingloose.
We the opioid crisis.
You know it's from someresponsible use drugs that end
up getting people hooked.
I mean we had SARS and H1N1.
And what's the one where, like,people were putting it in the
mail and stuff?
Yeah, I mean hell, cocaine, allof it.
(22:58):
It all started as somethinggood and got out of hand.
So I can't put that on him, man, and I won't, I'm not going to
do that.
But when we get back to thestreet level and prison level,
consumption of it, it's sad, man, and you know it's much bigger
(23:20):
than that.
You know it's much bigger thanthe localized focus of it.
But to see the effects, to seethe effects it has on people in
society is bad enough, but tosee the effects of it in prison
in such a controlled environment, it's like basically seeing,
(23:42):
you know, some widespread virusin a petri dish and watching it
just totally take over.
It's horrible, jeremy.
In his article he talks abouthow he ended up seeing somebody
get stabbed right in front ofhim over a sack of commissary
items so that somebody couldtrade it for more of this deuce
(24:05):
you know K2, spice, whateverdrug and on another occasion he
says he saw a man beaten with alock and a sock over a few
sticks worth of the drug Nowsticks.
He explains what thedenominations of this deuce is.
So he says that small sectionsare called dots and that's about
(24:26):
a quarter inch square and theygo for about one to three
dollars.
And then you have slugs whichare about a half inch to one
inch squares and they go forfive to ten dollars.
And then you have slugs whichare about a half inch to one
inch squares and they go for $5to $10.
And then you have what's calledan ID and it is about the size
of a driver's license and itcosts between $50 and $100.
(24:48):
And then sometimes you can geta whole sheet of paper sold as
is, which is eight and a half by11, and it can sell anywhere
from $1,000 to $3,000, which isfreaking, mind-blowing man that
is.
That's wicked.
So to be honest, I never, reallyI never really seen the actual
(25:13):
consumption of this drug.
You know, I always assumed thatit was just rolled up and
smoked just like weed.
You know, in prison I've oftenseen that guys use the Bible
paper, like the little tinybooks that are given out for
free of, like Psalms or Proverbsor something.
They use those as like rollingpapers.
But Jeremy describes adifferent method which I've
(25:39):
never really heard of.
Actually, just real quick, theepisode art for the last episode
was inspired by his descriptionof how the drug is consumed, so
the billowing smoke coming outof the cell doors and everything
that was inspired by hisdescription.
So he describes that wicks aremade out of a length of tightly
(26:04):
twisted toilet paper to form athin rope and then one end is
lit and the flame blown out toallow the chair to slowly burn.
This is verbatim reading fromthe article.
Deuce users use the wicks tolight sticks similar to a
marijuana joint but filled withthe cut up slivers of the deuce
(26:27):
paper Rolled out of thin Biblepaper.
Oh look, how about that?
The wicks themselves aretypically hung on the back walls
of the open barracks.
And then he says that you cansee the black ash collected in
heaps on the floor from all ofthe wicks, burning that back
(26:47):
there, and how nauseating thesmoke is and how thick it hangs
in the air.
Um, he says, over the past fewyears the WIC's brown burn
trails have started to overlapas they spread across the wall,
and the back wall of everybarrack in East Hall now looks
like actual flames have lickedthe wall.
(27:08):
That is a very potentdescription that he painted
there, a very vivid descriptionthat he painted there.
A very vivid description thathe painted there.
And very sad, man.
It's sad because, I mean, I'vedabbled in drugs, man, I will
never sit there and act like Ihaven't.
(27:29):
I've done quite a few.
I wouldn't say quite a few,I've done a few, quite a few, I
wouldn't say quite a few, I'vedone a few.
But to now be, you know, asober, living person with sound
mind and walking I mean throughhis description, walking in a
place like that and just to seeall the telltale signs, man,
(27:52):
it's like wow, it's a lot, man,it's a lot.
And I can only imagine thefrustration of the other inmates
and the staff members andpretty much just like what you
going to do.
You know what can you do?
(28:13):
Besides, I mean some of themore taboo things, like, if
you're an inmate, what you goingto do?
You going to snitch?
To be honest, man, would iteven help?
I mean, when it's thatprevalent like he talks about
multiple people in this one unitbeing dealers Would it even
help?
I mean, it's probably moredangerous than it is beneficial.
Now, I know we talked about howfrustrating it can be,
(28:34):
especially if you're anotherinmate that doesn't mess around
with this stuff, or if you're astaff member and you're trying
to figure out a way to crackdown on it.
The reality is, man, as far asI know, as far as I feel,
there's really nothing to bedone about it, you know, except
for, you know, educating inmateson the dangers of it.
(28:55):
Really, because it does havesignificant health risks.
You know it's not natural weed.
I mean, hell, really, be honest, today's weed ain't even
natural weed.
But this stuff is so chemicallyladen that I mean the short
term has, you know, pretty direconsequences to your health.
So I mean, maybe educationcould stem the tide of it, but
(29:19):
really, I mean it's really hardto crack down on it because it's
really hard to catch it gettingsmuggled in.
You know, like we said, anybodycan pretty much convey it into
the prison, whether that be avisitor or most.
You know, most often staffmembers or vendors who are
(29:41):
tempted by the quick moneyBecause, you know, everybody got
money problems.
But even more creative thanthat, you know there's.
I've personally seen somepretty advanced ways of you know
conveyance.
I've seen people stuff it insoftballs and throw it over the
(30:03):
fence.
You know I've seen dronesdropping stuff on the prison
yard.
You know it's just it's reallyhard to watch every.
You know to fight a war onevery front and be a master on
every front.
You know so, naturally, stuffis going to get by.
(30:24):
So I mean, what we heard todayis more than just a story about
synthetic drugs, you know, oreven at face value, about
addiction or hustle.
I mean it's a story aboutsurvival and the systems and you
know, like everything, themechanics from each different
side.
I mean this deuce or spice,whatever you want to call it.
(30:46):
I mean it isn't just causingchaos in prison yards, like it's
revealing the deeper chaos andhow we address addiction, mental
health and rehabilitationbehind bars.
I mean, to be honest, we can'ttalk about reform without
talking about the conditionspeople are trying to survive.
I mean the conditions thatcreate demand for anything that
(31:06):
offers escape, even if it costssomeone their sanity, their
safety, or even more timebecause you can catch, or even
more time because you can catch.
You can be prosecuted for thisstuff, you know, and it could
result in them lengthening yoursentence.
So, as we continue to, you know, advocate for people on the
(31:27):
inside, to amplify voices fromthe inside, I mean I challenge
you guys out here to, I mean,really take a look at what are
we all doing to support healing,to support reentry and to
support restoration of rights,to help people with their come
(31:52):
to terms with that truth.
I mean, us here at Lockdown theLegacy, we'll just keep
repeating ourselves, you know,like until people catch on,
we'll just keep shining thelight on it, but I mean,
eventually we got to figure outa way to break this cycle.
So, with that man, I'm going toend with that.
(32:15):
Um, I'm going to take a chanceto ask you all to check us out
on social media.
You know, facebook, lockdownthe Legacy podcast, uh,
instagram, lockdown the Legacycheck me out.
I'll be posting little shortvideos and stuff there.
You know, please like,subscribe, follow.
(32:36):
You know it helps a lot and Imean I appreciate you guys who
tune in and listen.
I watch the stats and see, likeall the different cities and
countries that people tune infrom, and I mean that really
(32:56):
take a lot of pride in that andthat means a lot to me.
So thank you for that and ifany of these episodes resonate
with you, if you find theminteresting, you know, please
share it.
You know, don't just like it,but share it because we are
trying to grow.
So start a conversation, dropthat in there.
Hey, you guys should go checkout this Lockdown Legacy podcast
.
You know, plug us in turn ourlights on Um.
(33:18):
But most importantly, you know,stay tuned like, stay stay up
on you know what we got to offer, because really all we're doing
is trying to give voices to thepeople who are silenced.
You know, and with that I'mgonna let it go, peace.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.