January 27, 2024 • 49 mins
Imagine stepping into a world where every day is a battle for survival, where education and violence walk a razor-thin line. We take you behind the bars to uncover the harsh realities of the American prison system with an unflinching gaze. My brother Father Wise and I share our personal journey, revealing the diverse ways inmates navigate the treacherous waters of incarceration—from those seizing the chance for self-improvement to others succumbing to the darkness of violence and theft. We bear witness to the struggle and the faint glimmers of hope, such as the culinary arts program that offers a lifeline to a future beyond prison walls.
The weight of a prison sentence extends far beyond the individual—it ripples through families and the hearts of youth teetering on the precipice of life choices. I open up about the delicate act of protecting one's professional credentials amidst chaos and the profound impact mentoring can have on redirecting at-risk youth. Through anecdotes and hard-earned wisdom, we illustrate the power of experience and mentorship, showcasing how guiding the younger generation towards intellectual prowess can pave the way for a life rebuilt on knowledge rather than brute strength.
Navigating reentry into society presents its own maze of psychological and social obstacles. We explore the seismic shift in attitudes among those leaving different incarceration levels and the erosion of the once-sacred convict code. The complexities of reintegration are laid bare as we discuss the survival behaviors that become ingrained and the challenges these present when reuniting with loved ones. Join us for a poignant conversation that promises no punches pulled, just an honest reflection on the journey from lockdown to laying the foundations for a new legacy.
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Also, check out the folks who got us together:
Music by: FiyahStartahz
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Cover art by: Timeless Acrylics
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to Lockdown to Legacy stories from the
inside out.
I'm your host, remy Jones.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I'm co-host Debbie Jones.
We are a husband and wife teamhere to bring you the real life
stories, experiences andquestions around the American
criminal justice system.
We do advise discretion withthis podcast.
I think we should put that outthere first and foremost.
Yes, we are going to talk aboutexperiences that happen inside
the prison system, outside ofprison systems.
(00:46):
We will use language that mightbe offensive, but we intend to
keep it real.
And if that's not for you, wetotally understand, but please
do what's best for yourlistening ears.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh, we're about to keep it real, son.
Our goal of this podcast is toshare the inside realities of
the American prison and criminaljustice system, from precharges
all the way to post-release,from the voices of those who've
experienced it firsthand,including me.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
That's right, we're going to get into it.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
What's up everybody?
Welcome back to another episodeof Lockdown, the Legacy.
Of course, this episode isanother special one because this
is actually another of thewisest world episodes, so you
know what that means.
I got my brother Fyla Wisethat's going to join us this
episode and I wanted to talkabout something a little on the
(01:51):
flip side of what we normallytalk about.
Usually we're talking aboutwhat happens when you come home
from prison, what happensleading up to prison, what
happens with recidivism and allthis other stuff programming but
really I don't feel like we'retalking about just the reality
of being in prison, as somebodyin prison, and what that
(02:12):
day-to-day is.
You know how to bit that's whatwe call it how to do your time,
how to bit, whether you're oneof those people that constantly
go to programming.
You're constantly playingsports, you're constantly
playing cards.
You know I play D&D, I playMagic Gathering.
I did pretty much everything.
I went to college, I worked outand I mean it's some people
(02:37):
that literally haven't grown upyet.
They're mad and all they do isfight.
That's how they pass their time, or they steal or something
like that.
So the reality is that whetheryou're one of those people or
whether you're just somebodyelse that has to share space
with those people.
You know it's a challenge.
It's a challenge every day Ifyou're trying to stay out of
(02:58):
trouble and you are faced withone of those people, or if
you're faced with an asshole, coor whatever it is.
Everybody has their own goalthat they're striving towards,
whether that's early release,parole boards, you know, just
staying out of trouble, tryingto get their security level
dropped, whatever it is, I meanhell, trying to avoid gangs,
(03:20):
like really you got troublecoming from every direction,
whether you're one of the peoplein the trouble or just trying
to avoid the trouble.
So this episode me and Wisejust going to have a little
casual conversation about thatYo enjoy.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
What's up bro?
Yo what's good.
What's good Ain't not much.
Man, how are you?
I'm good.
I'm good One day, step at atime.
You already know, bro, alreadyknow Everything with you in the
free world.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Oh man, Everything cool.
Man, what's been going on withyou?
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Slow for the bone man .
You know a lot of moving around.
You know how this jail thinggoes.
A lot of moving around One spotto the next, one dorm to the
next, for whatever reason theyfeel necessary to do.
Other than that, though, myhead is up, I'm in culinary art
school doing my thing, you know,trying to make you man.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, that's what's up Now.
You had told me about beingmoved around a lot, man, and
that's.
I mean, that's kind of got alot to do with what I wanted to
talk about today, Like just thereality of being in there and
the way the day-to-day functionis at each different security
level, you know.
But first, before we even getto that man, I want to hear
(04:40):
about this culinary arts thing,because I ain't really heard
much about that.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Oh yeah, the culinary art school is just nice, man,
you know it's like.
The only thing is like we can'tdo anything hands on right now
because the mess hall is being,you know, fixed.
You know it's beingre-innovated, so it's like they
over there fixing it up orwhatever.
So right now everything isstrictly bookmarked, which is
(05:07):
good anyway, because it's a needto know basis when you're
dealing with culinary arts.
People think that culinary artsis just all about the cooking
and things of that nature orwhatever.
But it's so much more deeperthan that.
You know, You've got to learnmeasurements, You've got to
learn food born illnesses,You've got to learn all kinds of
so many things to the fact oflearning culinary arts.
(05:29):
You know that comes with it,Whatever.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
It does come with the program, the program.
Y'all do any safe servecertified or something?
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Yeah, yep.
So so when we graduate in sixmonths, we get a safe certified
certificate that lasts fiveyears, but it has to be renewed
every five years.
But we also, in terms of that,get we also get a food handler's
license that lasts and stayswith you forever, so you don't
(05:59):
have to ever get that renewed.
It'll always be in your filewherever you go.
What?
Else do I say so?
it's a really good program andfor those and for those in
search for, like, diplomas andthings of that nature.
You know, they also have itworked out to the point where
you can go through culinary artsor you can go through I want to
(06:20):
say, not electrical, I can'tremember the other one oh,
carpentry, carpentry, excuse me,carpentry.
And they actually have aprogram set up to the point
where you can get your highschool diploma through them by
graduating their courses.
But you've got to put the workin though, but they're on test
(06:43):
that you take, yeah, so it'sgood.
It's good.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I mean, in my opinion , man, that makes it more
valuable and making it moreenticing for people to actually
go.
Because I used to be a tutorfor the 21 and under for the GD
Right.
It's mandatory if you 21 orunder to go and get in the GD
classes.
But don't nobody want to bethere.
Because, I mean to be honest,if you grew up in the streets,
(07:09):
like getting a GD is likepointless, like it's not about
to open up no doors for you inyour head, you know it's like
what if I get a GD, am I goingto get a good job, like you know
?
But if they know that they gotsome skills and some
certifications that back that GD, then why, why, why, why?
Yeah, I'll go do that, you know, and they might be more willing
(07:30):
to put in the work.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
One thing with one thing with the Ohio, ohio's
penal system, is the fact thatmore institutions need to have
more vocationals inside theinstitutions.
Because we all know andunderstand well that when you
don't have any type of skillsets under your belt and you
come to prison, especially at ayoung age, and then you leave
(07:54):
without any skill sets underyour belt, then it's that much.
It's just that much worse,because not every citizen rate
is going to continue to keepgoing around and around and
around.
And then nobody, they don'teven care because they already
this generation today.
You know they're a good groupof kids, man, but stuff they
just so lost.
They have no morals, they haveno values, they have no
(08:16):
principles and they have norespect, not even for themselves
.
And they're sad because if theyhad vocationals in prison then
they would have something tolook forward to, because now
they're actually doing somethinghands on while going to school
and getting to education at thesame exact time.
But when they go home they nowhave something that they know
(08:37):
how to do, like yo, I know howto fix a house.
Yo, I know how to do electricalwork.
Yo, I know how to do plumbing,and they're proud of that
because they learned a trade.
So they're not going to begoing back to renovate, back to
society, to just do the samethings that they used to do and
that they used to doing.
(08:57):
That.
The only thing that they knowhow to do is whatever they do,
you understand?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
I mean I try to stress that a lot because I mean
I started college and stuffbefore I came to prison but I
didn't really take it seriousfor real.
I mean, you know, when you inthe streets it's like everything
moving so fast, like I washalf-assed in it.
You know, I failed some classes, dropped some classes, I didn't
really care.
So I got to the joint to thatpoint where the state was paying
(09:28):
for me to go to college.
All of a sudden I mean I was,that was five years in so all of
a sudden I had that disciplineand that desire like I can't go
home.
The way I came in and I got tosay, man, I tell everybody that
college and getting my CDL whilein prison changed the whole way
(09:48):
I operated out here, becauseit's easy to go back to the
streets and the people that youwas hanging around when you
ain't got shit, you ain't gotshit, they ain't got shit.
Everybody fit in, you know.
But when you come home, likewhen I came home, and I was like
, man, listen, I'm trying to geta job ASAP my mom was like no,
(10:08):
I'll just take your time.
I'm like hell, no, I wanna gota job.
They try to play me.
But I knew what I had and Iknew what I was worth at that
time.
See, when you ain't got nothing, you don't know what you worth
for real, and when you don'tknow what you worth, you just be
quick to be like, well, fuck it.
Then you know, because youdon't really know what
possibilities you got.
(10:28):
So you be like, fuck it.
I ain't even gonna try Exactly,but, like when I had my CDL and
that first job tried to play me, I was like, bro, I got a CDL,
I'll go drive a truck right now.
So I called them, went toorientation before I even quit
the job and then, once I went toorientation and found out I got
it, I just went here and waslike yo, this, my two week
notice, I'm cool.
And boom, I was out theredriving this truck.
(10:51):
But the responsibility that camewith the CDL was something that
I had to always protect andeverybody that mentored me in
the truck driving they wasalways like protect your license
.
You know it's stuff that youcould do that'll make you lose
your license forever and yourlicense is your livelihood.
(11:11):
So, and that's the same thingfor, you know, being a nurse or
being a doctor, or being a brick, a mason or, you know, a car
salesman, a mechanic, anythingLike.
It's certain stuff you could dowhere you could lose your
certification, you know.
So you got to protect it.
And so when you get thatmentality like this is valuable,
(11:34):
I got to protect it.
All of a sudden, you like, likeme, I'd be like bro, you know, I
still fuck with a couple ofdudes that still fuck around the
streets.
But I'd be like, hey, don'tbring that shit in my car, bro.
Like, if we gonna hang out, I'mgonna meet you there, you know.
And you know, oh, you want togo to the store.
Well, shit, I just run and getit.
(11:55):
You know, like it ain't reallya lot that I'm willing to do,
that would jeopardize mylivelihood.
And so, just like this, youknow, you get your culinary arts
certification or anything likethat.
You come home and you havesomething valuable that you have
to protect and by protecting it, just by protecting it alone,
(12:17):
you end up not going back andbeing around a lot of the
bullshit.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Right, exactly, exactly.
And you know it's something.
It's also something like, see,so everything is not for
everybody, and I'm sad to say,but true, but even education,
when it comes to education, alot of these kids, man, believe
it or not, both of you alreadyknow because you're two of them,
(12:43):
but a lot of them are smart, alot of them could pass it with
flying colors, but it's justlike they don't want it, like
it's just not what they want Atthat particular time in their
life when they needed the most,when it's crucial, when it's
most needed.
You feel me Because, like I say, like we both know and
understand, they're so used to.
All they know is the streets,the streets, the streets, the
(13:05):
streets, the streets, thestreets.
And peer pressure, you know,brings a pause to their growth
and development, because nowthey feel that they don't want
to be the oddball out.
And we know and understand too,when we look at today's society
, to the, at a closer look toour youth, that the un-norm is
new norm, you know, and that'ssad.
(13:26):
But it also takes us as grownmen, literally, and grown women,
to like to do the best we canin pulling them up, because,
even though these are not ourbiological seeds, though our
children.
We still need to have thesetalks with them, like me.
This is another reason why theycaught me, father wise, because
I'm always pulling the shortiesto the side when I see the ones
(13:50):
that have the potential as wellas the ones that don't.
But at the same time, I pullthem to the side and I give them
pull-ups and I let them knowlike look that one cool, that
wasn't cool.
There was a better way of goingabout doing it.
If you do it this way, youain't always going to use
violence, so you ain't alwaysgot to be so quick to use your
hands, so use your mind sometime.
(14:10):
You ain't got to be so quick tocuss the CO's out.
Use your mind.
Learn your pin gang.
Get your pin gang down.
You know what I mean.
Get you know what I'm saying.
Get your education and beatthem with your mind.
You ain't got to beat them withyour physical aspect every
single time, you know, becauseyou're not going to win like
that all the time.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
You know, it's two things that go with that, bro.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
It's like I try to do the best I can to them, but you
know it's a uphill battle, butI'm willing to fight though.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yeah, it's two things that go with that, and one of
them is somebody in like yourposition, my position, somebody
especially on the inside,somebody that done a lot of time
.
You know, doing a lot of timeusually comes with a lot of
wisdom, you know.
And so, like you said, youpulling up on dudes, like, hey,
(14:56):
you know, figure out a betterway, and that goes.
You know that old saying eachone, teach one, you know, pass
it on on, because the youngergeneration in prison is wild and
they the same way on thestreets.
Man, like I ain't gonna lie, Iused to think, you know, before
I left prison I used to say likeI'm not afraid to cross an
(15:17):
invisible line.
You know I'm not going out thereto fuck around, but the only
way I would do some shit is ifthey brought it past my doorstep
.
But I'd be seeing these youngdudes out here and I'd be like
these motherfuckers is ridingaround in real life with
weaponry that you see on Call ofDuty a fucking pistol with a 51
clip.
You know a pistol that slideinto a jacket, that make it an
(15:44):
automatic rifle.
I'm like man, hell.
No, these niggas are doing man.
They killing people left andright for absolutely no reason.
Nigga winked at my girlfriendat a party.
Dude, try to holler at mysister at school like they
killing dudes.
So when they get to the jointthey mad unguided and it's good
(16:04):
that somebody like pull up onthem.
Like, hey, you know, figure outa better way.
And it's not all about physicalintimidation to be the best or,
you know, beating somebody up,nothing like that.
Like I had a little young dudewhen I was in there.
Man, he wanted the right poetrybut he didn't want to tell
nobody because he thought it wasweak.
But the dudes that he wasafraid to tell he could beat up
(16:27):
all of them for real, right,right, right.
Like when you start thinkingabout what it is to be a real
nigga, you know, with air quoteslike first, be true to yourself
, be real to yourself, you know.
And then also on the youngerdudes side, man, like you were
saying education ain't foreverybody.
(16:50):
And I learned that myself, man,because when I first went to
college out here I was man forreal.
All through high school andcollege out here I was getting
like mediocre to bad grades.
When I got to prison and I hadthat real thirst for knowledge.
That's when I was gettingstraight A's.
When I came home and I went toOSU, I was getting mediocre
(17:13):
grades again.
But what I realized was Ididn't have a desire to have a
degree.
I made the goal like, yeah, Iwant to get a degree because I
want to be the first of myfamily and stuff.
But when it came down to a forI was like a degree ain't going
to help me, you know, it ain'tgoing to help me make more money
(17:33):
.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
You have one minute remaining.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
It ain't going to help me get to where I want to
be.
So what I realized was I had adesire to learn.
A desire to learn and a desireto get a formal education, or
two different things.
You know, college and justbeing a lifelong learner is two
different things.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Indeed, it is.
Indeed it is, but you transformit from a boy to a man, and
that's one of theresponsibilities and the
beginning of manhood is to knowthat you're tired of being a boy
and it's time to be a man.
So you see the responsibility,the justice, responsibilities
that need to be handled, and sonow you take the initiative to
(18:20):
move you, to put your best footforward.
Now I'll be right back.
All right, bro, thank you forusing GTL.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
All right, so, as you guys know, it's just these 15
minute phone calls, so we'regoing to wait for why I have to
call right back and we're goingto continue the conversation.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Talk to me.
I talk back, brother.
What's good?
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Yeah, what's up, man, welcome back.
Hey.
So for this episode, man, Iwant to kind of talk about some
of the realities in prison,because we talk about a lot
about what it's like after youcome home or what it's like
during the holidays or somethinglike that.
But what's it like day to day?
You know like you was talkingabout you just got moved a few
(19:03):
times in a room.
You know like the reality isthat you're not in control when
you're in prison.
You know as much as you want tobe, you're at the mercy of the
you know institution for it.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
See, and that's what we need to know and understand
too that when we in here and alot of the things that we get
away with, just like in society,a lot of the things that you
know okay, let's take it back tochildhood on a quick side, when
we used to think that we usedto get away with things, and
your mother or your father orboth used to tell you like yo
listen, I've been there, I'vedone that, like you're not
(19:40):
getting away with that.
If I tell you to go left andyou go right, you're going to
fall into a ditch.
It's just that simple.
But the bottom line is you'renever in control because
somebody always has to guide you, and so even in here, that's
why you know they call it prison, you know, and they call it.
You know they call itrehabilitation for a reason, but
(20:02):
at the same time they took therehabilitation part and then
turned it into a negative.
The rehabilitation is supposedto have been the positive, but
they took that and turned itinto a negative.
The system did, and it's sadbecause it only triggers these
younger generation to even actmore wilder and more crazier and
be more ignorant than theyalready are.
(20:24):
And it's sad because the oldergeneration, such as myself, like
I, was cool.
So I work hard to stay out ofthe way, to stay out of trouble,
to do everything necessary tostay on that straight and narrow
and move to a better locationmeaning a better pod or a better
(20:45):
unit or whatever so that I canget myself together and focus
more, sort of like an honor dormor honor pod or whatever you
want to call it nowadays.
But the fact of the matter isI'm here in this pod and I'm
staying out the way, I'm doingeverything right and exact or
whatever, and I'm doing good andme and a couple of more guys
(21:06):
and then they just uproot us andthrow us right back in the pits
and it's like, why are you alldoing this?
Oh well, we wanted to try thisright here, you know, and move
all of the STG dudes meaning theyou know dudes that are
affiliated in gangs and known onrecord and the most trouble
makers or whatever and we wantedto put them down in this unit
(21:27):
so we can watch them.
So you take me, as well asother individuals who've been
out of the way for the last fewyears, and you throw us back
into the pit.
Everything is happening that,so you just jeopardize it.
You just jeopardize one thefact that I've been doing good,
(21:48):
trying to get my security leveldropped and you have to stay out
of trouble.
You can't catch no RIB ticketsRight, so you jeopardize in that
.
And you jeopardize them onfreedom, because you put me back
amongst the wolves.
Now, not to say that we can'thandle being in this situation,
but we've grown and developed somuch to the point that we've
escalated above and beyond that.
We want to be past thisno-transcript.
(22:13):
But then I had to take it backto the fact that.
Think about it and I say, yo,this is their doing, but it's
also a test from God too at thesame time.
And I have to look at it thatway, because if everything
happens for divine purpose and areason and if you put me back
here, then it has to be a divinepurpose I have to have a server
purpose and that purpose that Ichoose to serve that I feel
(22:34):
that came from above, is thefact that me snatching these
little ones up when I can andtrying to save their life by
having talks with them andopening their eyes so that they
can see things for what it isand not what it appears to be.
They show them that there is abetter way.
I even had to challenge it.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
No, go ahead what you was saying.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
No, I even had to challenge a couple of them one
time.
You know, they get on theirhigh horse and they get to
talking their gangsta, gangsta,whatever.
Whatever you know, and you knowme, bro, I'm quiet, I'm laid
back, lay low, I'm still low,I'm humble, or whatever.
But then a couple of them youknow they get crazy or whatever
get bit out of shape for noreason.
So I challenged them.
(23:16):
I said, listen, it's five ofy'all, I'll fight each one of
y'all and if any one of y'allwhooped me, I'll give you $100.
But if I whooped y'all, y'allgot to go to school.
They lifted me, like what.
But do you know that man, oneof those guys none of them took
me up on that challenge, not oneof them.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, that's dope.
Now what?
I'm trying to say is, once youget into the bit man, once you
get well into the bit, hopefullyyou start finding new ways to
respond.
Because that's the whole,that's the only thing you in
control of in there.
You know you not in control ofthe young dudes trying to test
(23:59):
you or the administration movingyou know bed moves or anything
like that and what you incontrol of is how you respond to
it.
And at first, you know, when Istarted getting older in prison,
I started seeing a lot moreyounger dudes come in behind me.
At first my growth was allright.
(24:21):
I understand that I'm older andyou know I may not have the
stamina that I used to have.
I got wisdom and battle tested.
You know.
I got you know the fight IQ.
But what I have now is anunderstanding that as soon as
this fight starts I got tofinish it ASAP, which makes me a
(24:42):
whole lot more dangerous, youknow, because I'm not trying to
show off for nobody.
I ain't trying like and that'swhat made it bad.
It's like you know, I done beento a level three and work my
way down.
By working my way down, I'dhave had to, you know, re
solidify a reputation and try tokeep it hushed so I don't go
(25:02):
back up.
But at the same time, it's like, without fighting, I had to
make them understand like,listen, we ain't gonna do this
Because the young dudes thinkthat if you quiet or if you not
quick to fight, you weak.
I'm trying to say like, bruh,I'm trying to help you and me,
you know you know exactlybecause I said it before, when I
(25:28):
was fresh off the streets, man,I thought I was like this shit,
we know, when it came togetting some work, like we can
go on the back wall right now,like it was, it was any time,
like let's go get some workright now.
But when I seen a dude get youknow some Vaseline and sugar
cubes, put in the microwave for30 minutes and then threw in his
(25:49):
face, I was like oh this shitdifferent.
You know what I see.
When I see, when I was in thehole and I seen dude throw the
glock, dookie on the guard, Iwas like oh this this shit way
different than just being on thestreets and catching some hands
, you know.
So maybe all the magic shadesyeah like all types of shit Like
(26:13):
and when I say that you know Iwas talking about like security
levels.
It's different threats atdifferent security levels.
When we was at level three, Idon't care if you hated somebody
, you respected them because youknew that you could be
physically maimed or die.
I don't see any state trooperscoming here and yellow tape off
somebody's sale after a fight.
Yeah, um.
(26:35):
But then when we got to leveltwo, it was like okay, everybody
want to fight, but it ain't all.
It ain't all shanks and lockerboxes and all this other shit,
this weapons.
We just fighting more often.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
So when I got to level one, not to cut you off,
it was like.
But they just came with a newrule, right.
So it just came with a new rule.
So because you know, the newthing is crashing on dudes,
that's the new thing in thesystem where I will pay you and
you are going crash on somebody,just crashing, in other words,
just catching from the blindside and just hurt them real bad
(27:08):
because they don't see itcoming Right.
So it's been so much of thatgoing on.
Now they came with some new,some new rules now and would
stipulate the fact that if youcrash on somebody, meaning that
you blindside them, that theyput you in a hole for six months
and they raise your.
(27:29):
They raise your level.
You get commissary visits,packages, phone calls.
All of that's dead for sixmonths after you get out the
hole.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Oh, you're on restriction after you get out
the hole.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
Restricted, yeah, and if you end, because a lot of
dudes that do it, most of themare going home.
You know they short timers, sonaturally you're going to go
home on PRC.
So if you have PRC stipulations, guess what?
Now they're adding newsanctions to the PRC
stipulations that you alreadyhave put in place waiting on you
(28:06):
to come.
Now you just added more to that.
So they're not playing, they'retrying to really, they really
try to knock down on thatproblem.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
They're not going to send you up to come back, then
they send you up for your nextbit, exactly.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Exactly, exactly.
And these little ones, they'dbe like oh, I don't give a, I
don't give a fuck about that,they come with that little
bullshit.
But I had to add well, again, Ihad to add a couple of them.
What makes you, what's so?
Fly about crashing on somebody,though that don't see it coming
(28:39):
, though Whatever happened, togive a shooting a fair one with
them all fucking like lettingthem get a fair one.
But, needless to say, this isthe level three mentality.
Level four, mentality, levelfive, mentality, whatever it is,
different levels to this.
And it's like you have to learnto educate.
We have to learn to educateourselves along the way, because
(29:01):
when you try that you hadenough, then you're, then you
try that you had enough, justlike anything else in life.
And so when you start comingdown these levels comprised of
fours, the threes, or fromthrees, or from fours, the
threes, the twos, or from threes, the twos, the ones you see the
difference in the, in the, inthe, in the, in your
surroundings when you're in thepenitentiaries and the different
penitentiaries at differentlevels.
(29:23):
And, like I said, level twos maya little bit be a little bit
more rowdy.
Rowdy because the youngergeneration have taken over
completely.
So with so many young dudes, somany young black males in
prison today, it's sad to see ifit really is, you know.
But they have no guidance, theyhave no structure, they have no
, they have no hope they have.
They don't have anything.
(29:44):
So I do the best I can, alongwith some more brothers, like
yourself used to do, and I tryto pull them in and I try to
help them as best I can so thatthey can see things in a better
way.
You know what I'm saying.
Like you say, at the end of theday, we have no control and the
only thing they try to do iscontinuously pamper us with, you
know, even with the TV anddifferent things that they allow
(30:05):
us to have.
That's just a pampering, to tryto calm us down, like because
they need for us to havesomething to do.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Speaking of, like no control, like you know it's.
It's different at everysecurity level at every
institution, but you really haveto learn how to survive all
over again once you get yoursecurity change, because it's
not the same from a level threeor level four or level five or
level two or level one, likewhen I came, when I was on level
(30:34):
three, you know, speaking ofcontrol, like if you wanted to
go to the phone, like it mightbe a certain gang that control
each phone, you know.
So you might just think, oh,I'm about to go over here and
happen a phone real quick.
And you think like, okay, youknow, ain't nobody in line, I'm
going to call back.
And somebody pulled tight Like,hey, man, what you doing on our
phone.
(30:56):
You like you like what you know,because you don't understand
how to survive around there,certain people that control
certain things and the CEOsmight see it and just turn an
eye, you know, turn a blind eye.
But then you get down to leveltwo.
You so used to that, you soused to having a lock and a sock
ready, a shank, ready, somebaby oil, whatever you know.
(31:17):
You get down to level two andyou you start like damn, okay,
dudes walking around and flipflops, headphones on, like back
to the you know, sleeping withtheir head towards the aisle.
You like man, what the fuckgoing on?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
You know you get down to level one.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
You like okay, everybody just want to talk
crazy to me, Like I want tosmack their mouth.
So you have to like learn, likeokay, like calm down, Like this
ain't the place for that.
You know, I just talked to oneof my homies and he was like man
, I hate it in this institutionbecause it's just so soft.
I was like, bro, you got to,you got to calm it down.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Man, tom, yeah, you got to, you see, and when you
used to being a certain kind ofwait for so many years, it's
like okay.
So it's like it's like mymentality versus an individual's
mentality coming from a levelone that ended in a level one
for 10 years, and then I'mcoming from a level three after
(32:16):
10 years, coming to the street,right.
So his mentality is going to bemore humble, more you know,
more more sufficient, moreunderstanding.
My attitude is going to be likeyou're looking at, don't touch
me, and everything is going tobe like, like aggressive
behavior.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
No matter what you're looking at me.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
You have one minute remaining.
Even playing space,everything's aggressive,
aggressive, but yeah, there's nocontrol.
We have no control.
We have no control over thesystem.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Well, I mean, don't get me wrong, we always trying
to take control.
I mean, once you get a certainreputation like you know, when I
was talking about the old lawdudes, like they keep order for
real, like it used to be, likeif you wanted to do some grimy
shit and you knew somebody of acertain level of respect live
next to that dude you would goand ask them permission, Like
(33:14):
hey man.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
This is between a convict and an inmate.
There are no more convictsanymore.
The system wipes us out.
It just wipes us out.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah, I remember dudes coming to me like, hey,
man, I'm trying to hit up yourneighbor, like is it cool?
And I'm like hell, no, man,keep that shit from around here.
They like, oh, come on, man,you know I pay you if you let me
hit this lick.
Like that's how it used to beand you know now it's.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
Thank you for using Gtl.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
But yeah, though it's like I don't even remember what
I was saying.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
I mean, you know, we were talking about how the
respect factor goes when DeBloiscame over and actually can they
do a hit.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, I mean, that's how it used to be.
It was like you know somebodycoming as permission because
they knew that you know thefallout is in your area.
You know you like no man, keepthat shit from around here.
You know they they be like, oh,I pay you, I pay you if you let
me hit this lick.
I mean some dudes like allright, you know, some dudes like
hell, no, like you know, andit's not even a factor of like
(34:22):
you know you protecting thatperson.
It's really just like you know,it's kind of like a prison
neighborhood watch, like man,you know this, this my area.
It's like this, my area, youknow.
Or even like being on a blockon the streets, you know.
If a certain gang control acertain area or something, they
be like, oh no, no, we can't goover there and do this because
(34:42):
so-and-so control that area, youknow right.
So you know, I used to tell the, the deputy warden when I was
still in grafting man.
I used to tell her like hey,you trying to make all these
changes around here and youmaking them too fast, you know,
because you just trying to rideout all the old laws or anybody
that got more than five years todo, you just trying to ride
(35:05):
them out to another prison andfill this with a whole bunch of
young short timers.
You know, and I'm like thatshit ain't gonna work because
you gonna turn this bitch into agladiator camp If you ain't got
no old law that's in the mix tokind of, and they don't
understand that they don'tunderstand.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
What they still realize is, you see, now back in
the day, right, like definitelywardens and wardens or whatever
the case may be, like theywould have they probably
wouldn't do it themselves buthad intel to come in and ask
questions like you know, whatcan we do to make this spot calm
down or make it better orwhatever the case may be they
(35:46):
actually listen to that shit.
You know what I'm saying andlike.
So when you had to talk withthe deputy warden or whatever
the case, and you was lettingher know, like what you doing
ain't gonna work, like yo youput in, you just sending all of
the old guys up out of here asgrandfather, then then you
sending all of these making thiscamp a youth camp and it's
going to turn into a gladiatorschool.
(36:08):
You have to think one or twothings right.
It's either that's what theywant to happen, or they go, or
they don't want it.
In the blind, they don't knowwhat's going to happen until it
does and they don't listen.
But if they took the initiativeto listen, then a lot of these
institutions will be a lotbetter than what they are for
real.
(36:28):
But another sad thing about thepenitentiary again today is that
it's so extremely overpopulatedwith young males, like young
males, I'm talking 18, 19, 20.
And they in here doing theydoing football numbers and they
don't care.
(36:49):
And it's a pandemic with this,with this, with this drug thing
going on, with this new typedrug they got going on.
It's like all of these babiesdown there I call them babies
because they're so young to me18, 19, 20, 21, 22.
And everybody's hooked on thisroad spraying and setting all
and all the road spraying to K2.
(37:11):
That flows through thepenitentiaries and stuff like
that, you know.
Well you remember when I was inthere.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
I think it was like 2016, 2017, where it was like I
don't know.
It was like in one week it waslike 10 overdoses on the
fentanyl and they had like thewhole place locked down.
They had the dogs in and allthis other shit.
I was like man, but for real, Ithink the problem is that the
(37:41):
deputy warrants and warrantsain't career like law
enforcement no more.
They're not.
They're not career prisonofficials no more.
You got these young dudes thatwant to just get in and fly up
the ranks and they ain't reallybeen involved in it Because,
like you said, I remember beingin level three and they coming
(38:02):
in like, hey, what can we do?
Like shit started to get out ofhand and we noticed it.
So what can we do?
Instead of just being likewe're going to respond with an
iron fist Like nah, because nowwe think we hard, so we ain't
just going to let you punk us.
And I remember they came in andwas like some dudes gave some
suggestions and they was likeall right, well, we're going to
(38:24):
start the movie channel.
We're going to rotate moviesEvery Tuesday, we're going to
switch it up, we're going toplay a movie at this time, at
this time and at this time, andit was like, oh okay, on this
day it's going to be nothing butnew releases.
Next thing you know, you goteverybody sitting in their cell
waiting for the movie to come on.
Ain't nobody trying to donothing bullshit?
And that's a great example ofhow somebody was like hey man,
(38:47):
instead of trying to crack down,why don't we go talk to them
and see what we can do to makedudes chill out?
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Exactly.
But you know, a lot of timeswhen they call themselves doing
that with these communitymeetings, town hall meetings,
they call them, you know, andthen they ask these questions.
And they ask these questionsand In regards to the answers
that we, that they're supposedto take heed to, as far as us
(39:17):
telling them everything that'snot right and exact to the point
where, you know, if they listento us and they follow, they
follow what we say that it canmake things better for the
institution as well as a saferenvironment.
You know what I'm saying.
Don't get me wrong.
Prison is going to always beprison, no matter what.
But at the same time, don'tcome to us and piss on our head
(39:41):
and tell us it's raining,because you know that you really
don't want our help or ouradvice.
Don't come bothering us likethat and try to find out
solutions to that or answers toa solution that you really don't
want the answers to.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
And that's all.
I'm saying of course that'sconsidered.
You put your.
I said we seen a heaven toowhere you put in your
suggestions and you seeeverybody else put in their
suggestions and out of singlething change.
You don't hear nothing elseabout it.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
And then one thing that I want to put out there too
, and I pray, I pray thatsomebody in Albany not Albany,
but I'm thinking about New York,but Columbus is listening,
because when Columbus walksthrough any institution or
prison, they always try toconvene for us to be locked down
(40:34):
at the time that they bringthem through certain areas, so
that we can't pull them to theside and talk to the bigger
weeks that are up in Columbus.
That'll take the initiative toreally listen, because some of
the people will listen.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
And they don't want that to happen.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
And we as the inmates , we not stupid.
We know who the people are thatare listening before they even
step on the premises.
Exactly.
So you write a lot of timeswhen the people from central
office in the capital, columbus,when they come and walk through
a prison, everybody locked downand they'll take them to a
specific block that they thinkis a safe block from the being,
(41:12):
they think that the dudes arehappy and not going to complain
too much and they think that youknow and they be like, okay,
we're going to leave these guysout and we're going to take them
on a tour.
Of this block it's the clean one, it's the one that got all the
stuff working in it.
Ain't nothing broken?
Exactly.
And so when they walk through,dudes just sitting there playing
(41:33):
chess, playing Scrabble, youknow kicking it.
They ain't saying nothing, theyain't doing nothing, they don't
even want to talk to them.
Really, they don't even knowwho they are probably.
But you know, that's one blockout of the whole institution.
Everybody else is like man,it's damn roof leaking and they
be locking us down all the time.
And you know they done tore myshit up and damaged my property,
(41:55):
or they, you know a lot ofthings, yo a lot of things, man,
but yeah, for us, hello, yeah,I'm that.
Speaker 4 (42:04):
Yeah, but as far as you know, getting back on that
control issue, you know, likethey, they tend to put us in
positions sometimes to thinkthat we are in control when
we're really not, you know.
But they quick to let you knowtoo that you're not in control,
because with a, with a quick,with the, with the punch of a
(42:26):
button I'm gonna set me downwith a punch of a button they
can stop your visits, stopanything they want to stop.
Yeah, the click of a button.
You understand what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
I just try to say that they wanted to.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
right now they can cut me off, huh.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
I used to try to say that all the time, like, like
you said, visits, like they, forno reason and no warning.
They could just be like, nah,you ain't got no visits, no more
, they can cut your phone calloff in the middle of it.
All right, your own phonerestriction.
Or you know, like you said,they just move your your, your
bed location.
How many times in the lastcouple of weeks?
Speaker 4 (43:08):
For the last week and a half I didn't move four times
.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
There's some time you sell in, they like, nah, nah,
we changed our mind, you ain'tgot no control.
So I used to tell people, like,when it comes to the level of
not having control down, tomMalt, like a rule 21,.
You know if you've been inprison.
You know in Ohio what a rule 21is.
It is the most basic catch allrule ever and it's a disobeying
of a direct order.
(43:32):
That and out of place is likeprobably on every ticket you'll
ever get, because it's the onlyone that you just can't not get
found not guilty of, becauseanybody can say anything.
They can walk up to you and belike hey, right here in the
middle of the day room witheverybody was standing around
strip naked.
You like man, the fuck out ofhere.
They go like, all right, cuffhim up, right, you know, and you
(43:56):
ain't know why, you get thestrip Nothing.
You just like man, I ain'tdoing that shit, all right,
we're disobeying as a directorder.
We're going to go ahead andlock him up.
We just going to make thatstick until we can find
something else while he in there.
On disobeying as a direct order,we're going to go and tear shit
up Like.
This is the level of lack ofcontrol that we're subjected to
on the inside If they be, like achild, supposed to be at noon
(44:22):
for lunch and they don't servethat shit till 5.30,.
So what, like it's nothing youcan do.
It's nothing you can do, youknow 5.30, they come around with
a baloney bag.
Right, right.
Speaker 4 (44:38):
Or just a peanut butter and jelly, that's it.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Yeah, you know.
So I mean, when you think aboutpeople in prison, most people
out here don't think aboutpeople in prison.
They just think, ah, they did acrime, they should go do the
time.
They don't think about theconditions of doing time, they
don't think about the dangersand trying to stay out the way,
trying to rebuild yourself andrehabilitate yourself.
(45:03):
And then you got danger fromthe little young dudes, the
inmates, or the power happy CEOthat just had a bad day.
You know, they don't know aboutthe struggles of really Right.
Speaker 4 (45:19):
And so and let's get more in depth on that for a
second, because it's like so forour loved ones out there in the
world mainly our women, butfamily members period, when we
tend to act out a certain kindof way with aggression, it's not
because we actually want to, orwe do it in a form of
(45:42):
disrespecting you, because wecan, or anything of that nature.
It's the fact that we have tolearn to adapt to our
surroundings, and then part ofadapting to our surroundings
causes us to become moreaggressive to a lot of
situations, because that's howyou have to respond.
In certain places and certainpenitentiaries, you have to
(46:04):
respond with aggressiveness, andthen it just becomes that
aggressive behavior becomes apart of you.
I don't mean to be aggressive,but I come off as being
aggressive all the time, and sowhat I want to say is for those
who love it, who love us andstill have their hooks in us out
there, to please be moreunderstanding and patient and
just when we come off like that,be patient and just let us know
(46:29):
like hey, tone it down a littlebit, calm down, relax.
This is me you talk to.
Just don't be so quick to takeit to heart and just be like who
the fuck is you talking to?
What the fuck?
Because that's going to makematters worse.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Yeah, communication.
The communication is better.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
We don't.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
I mean, that's really something that we kind of lack
on the inside is communicationskills.
I mean, because, if you thinkabout it, the people that we
need to communicate with themost are the staff, the
administrators and stuff likethat.
But it's a huge barrier whereyou're not allowed to talk to
(47:09):
certain people unless you gotoffice hours.
And I give mad respect, man,because this is some people that
I know in there and I ain'tgoing to throw their names out,
but it's some people some casemanagers, some unit managers,
some captains.
Speaker 4 (47:25):
You have one minute remaining.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Where they was like the most approachable people
ever they had.
Sit there and kick it with you,man.
I've seen one of the captainscome in and play chess with a
duel one time.
It was just sitting therechopping it up with everybody,
like you said, asking likewhat's going on?
Like y'all cool, y'all needanything.
And everybody was just sittingthere, cool man.
They demoted his ass so quick.
Actually, no, actually no, hewas a major.
(47:51):
He was a major and they demotedhim to captain but he was doing
stuff that made the prisonchill out.
You know, he was actually.
He ain't have to worry about noprison snitch, he just sat down
and talked to dudes.
So hey, but look, man, wewrapping up, man.
I appreciate you, bro, Iappreciate you.
I appreciate you.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
I appreciate you anytime, man, anytime, and to
the listeners, thank you.
Thank you for listening.
Keep tuning in, man.
Keep tuning in and getting thegood word, man.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Facts this is another episode of WISES WORLD.
Speaker 4 (48:24):
You already know the great father of the wise First
time world though, baby, wetrying to make it better, right.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Oh, yeah, each one teach one.
Each one teach one right on bro.
Speaker 4 (48:31):
Thank you for using GTL.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
The lockdown to legacy podcast is proud to be a
part of the bus sprout podcastcommunity network.
Lockdown to legacy is recordedat co-hatch in their lovely
audio file room.
Thanks for your scholarship.
Audio engineering is done byour very own Remy Jones.
You can reach us with anyfeedback, questions, comments or
share the love by emailingstories at lockdown, the number
(49:04):
two legacycom, stories atlockdown to legacycom.
You can reach out there too fora free sticker, and you can
find us on Instagram and Twitterwith the handle at lockdown to
legacy and on Facebook at thelockdown to legacy podcast.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to Lockdown to Legacy stories from the
inside out.
I'm your host, remy Jones.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I'm co-host Debbie Jones.
We are a husband and wife teamhere to bring you the real life
stories, experiences andquestions around the American
criminal justice system.
We do advise discretion withthis podcast.
I think we should put that outthere first and foremost.
Yes, we are going to talk aboutexperiences that happen inside
the prison system, outside ofprison systems.
(00:46):
We will use language that mightbe offensive, but we intend to
keep it real.
And if that's not for you, wetotally understand, but please
do what's best for yourlistening ears.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh, we're about to keep it real, son.
Our goal of this podcast is toshare the inside realities of
the American prison and criminaljustice system, from precharges
all the way to post-release,from the voices of those who've
experienced it firsthand,including me.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
That's right, we're going to get into it.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
What's up everybody?
Welcome back to another episodeof Lockdown, the Legacy.
Of course, this episode isanother special one because this
is actually another of thewisest world episodes, so you
know what that means.
I got my brother Fyla Wisethat's going to join us this
episode and I wanted to talkabout something a little on the
(01:51):
flip side of what we normallytalk about.
Usually we're talking aboutwhat happens when you come home
from prison, what happensleading up to prison, what
happens with recidivism and allthis other stuff programming but
really I don't feel like we'retalking about just the reality
of being in prison, as somebodyin prison, and what that
(02:12):
day-to-day is.
You know how to bit that's whatwe call it how to do your time,
how to bit, whether you're oneof those people that constantly
go to programming.
You're constantly playingsports, you're constantly
playing cards.
You know I play D&D, I playMagic Gathering.
I did pretty much everything.
I went to college, I worked outand I mean it's some people
(02:37):
that literally haven't grown upyet.
They're mad and all they do isfight.
That's how they pass their time, or they steal or something
like that.
So the reality is that whetheryou're one of those people or
whether you're just somebodyelse that has to share space
with those people.
You know it's a challenge.
It's a challenge every day Ifyou're trying to stay out of
(02:58):
trouble and you are faced withone of those people, or if
you're faced with an asshole, coor whatever it is.
Everybody has their own goalthat they're striving towards,
whether that's early release,parole boards, you know, just
staying out of trouble, tryingto get their security level
dropped, whatever it is, I meanhell, trying to avoid gangs,
(03:20):
like really you got troublecoming from every direction,
whether you're one of the peoplein the trouble or just trying
to avoid the trouble.
So this episode me and Wisejust going to have a little
casual conversation about thatYo enjoy.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
What's up bro?
Yo what's good.
What's good Ain't not much.
Man, how are you?
I'm good.
I'm good One day, step at atime.
You already know, bro, alreadyknow Everything with you in the
free world.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Oh man, Everything cool.
Man, what's been going on withyou?
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Slow for the bone man .
You know a lot of moving around.
You know how this jail thinggoes.
A lot of moving around One spotto the next, one dorm to the
next, for whatever reason theyfeel necessary to do.
Other than that, though, myhead is up, I'm in culinary art
school doing my thing, you know,trying to make you man.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, that's what's up Now.
You had told me about beingmoved around a lot, man, and
that's.
I mean, that's kind of got alot to do with what I wanted to
talk about today, Like just thereality of being in there and
the way the day-to-day functionis at each different security
level, you know.
But first, before we even getto that man, I want to hear
(04:40):
about this culinary arts thing,because I ain't really heard
much about that.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Oh yeah, the culinary art school is just nice, man,
you know it's like.
The only thing is like we can'tdo anything hands on right now
because the mess hall is being,you know, fixed.
You know it's beingre-innovated, so it's like they
over there fixing it up orwhatever.
So right now everything isstrictly bookmarked, which is
(05:07):
good anyway, because it's a needto know basis when you're
dealing with culinary arts.
People think that culinary artsis just all about the cooking
and things of that nature orwhatever.
But it's so much more deeperthan that.
You know, You've got to learnmeasurements, You've got to
learn food born illnesses,You've got to learn all kinds of
so many things to the fact oflearning culinary arts.
(05:29):
You know that comes with it,Whatever.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
It does come with the program, the program.
Y'all do any safe servecertified or something?
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Yeah, yep.
So so when we graduate in sixmonths, we get a safe certified
certificate that lasts fiveyears, but it has to be renewed
every five years.
But we also, in terms of that,get we also get a food handler's
license that lasts and stayswith you forever, so you don't
(05:59):
have to ever get that renewed.
It'll always be in your filewherever you go.
What?
Else do I say so?
it's a really good program andfor those and for those in
search for, like, diplomas andthings of that nature.
You know, they also have itworked out to the point where
you can go through culinary artsor you can go through I want to
(06:20):
say, not electrical, I can'tremember the other one oh,
carpentry, carpentry, excuse me,carpentry.
And they actually have aprogram set up to the point
where you can get your highschool diploma through them by
graduating their courses.
But you've got to put the workin though, but they're on test
(06:43):
that you take, yeah, so it'sgood.
It's good.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I mean, in my opinion , man, that makes it more
valuable and making it moreenticing for people to actually
go.
Because I used to be a tutorfor the 21 and under for the GD
Right.
It's mandatory if you 21 orunder to go and get in the GD
classes.
But don't nobody want to bethere.
Because, I mean to be honest,if you grew up in the streets,
(07:09):
like getting a GD is likepointless, like it's not about
to open up no doors for you inyour head, you know it's like
what if I get a GD, am I goingto get a good job, like you know
?
But if they know that they gotsome skills and some
certifications that back that GD, then why, why, why, why?
Yeah, I'll go do that, you know, and they might be more willing
(07:30):
to put in the work.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
One thing with one thing with the Ohio, ohio's
penal system, is the fact thatmore institutions need to have
more vocationals inside theinstitutions.
Because we all know andunderstand well that when you
don't have any type of skillsets under your belt and you
come to prison, especially at ayoung age, and then you leave
(07:54):
without any skill sets underyour belt, then it's that much.
It's just that much worse,because not every citizen rate
is going to continue to keepgoing around and around and
around.
And then nobody, they don'teven care because they already
this generation today.
You know they're a good groupof kids, man, but stuff they
just so lost.
They have no morals, they haveno values, they have no
(08:16):
principles and they have norespect, not even for themselves
.
And they're sad because if theyhad vocationals in prison then
they would have something tolook forward to, because now
they're actually doing somethinghands on while going to school
and getting to education at thesame exact time.
But when they go home they nowhave something that they know
(08:37):
how to do, like yo, I know howto fix a house.
Yo, I know how to do electricalwork.
Yo, I know how to do plumbing,and they're proud of that
because they learned a trade.
So they're not going to begoing back to renovate, back to
society, to just do the samethings that they used to do and
that they used to doing.
(08:57):
That.
The only thing that they knowhow to do is whatever they do,
you understand?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
I mean I try to stress that a lot because I mean
I started college and stuffbefore I came to prison but I
didn't really take it seriousfor real.
I mean, you know, when you inthe streets it's like everything
moving so fast, like I washalf-assed in it.
You know, I failed some classes, dropped some classes, I didn't
really care.
So I got to the joint to thatpoint where the state was paying
(09:28):
for me to go to college.
All of a sudden I mean I was,that was five years in so all of
a sudden I had that disciplineand that desire like I can't go
home.
The way I came in and I got tosay, man, I tell everybody that
college and getting my CDL whilein prison changed the whole way
(09:48):
I operated out here, becauseit's easy to go back to the
streets and the people that youwas hanging around when you
ain't got shit, you ain't gotshit, they ain't got shit.
Everybody fit in, you know.
But when you come home, likewhen I came home, and I was like
, man, listen, I'm trying to geta job ASAP my mom was like no,
(10:08):
I'll just take your time.
I'm like hell, no, I wanna gota job.
They try to play me.
But I knew what I had and Iknew what I was worth at that
time.
See, when you ain't got nothing, you don't know what you worth
for real, and when you don'tknow what you worth, you just be
quick to be like, well, fuck it.
Then you know, because youdon't really know what
possibilities you got.
(10:28):
So you be like, fuck it.
I ain't even gonna try Exactly,but, like when I had my CDL and
that first job tried to play me, I was like, bro, I got a CDL,
I'll go drive a truck right now.
So I called them, went toorientation before I even quit
the job and then, once I went toorientation and found out I got
it, I just went here and waslike yo, this, my two week
notice, I'm cool.
And boom, I was out theredriving this truck.
(10:51):
But the responsibility that camewith the CDL was something that
I had to always protect andeverybody that mentored me in
the truck driving they wasalways like protect your license
.
You know it's stuff that youcould do that'll make you lose
your license forever and yourlicense is your livelihood.
(11:11):
So, and that's the same thingfor, you know, being a nurse or
being a doctor, or being a brick, a mason or, you know, a car
salesman, a mechanic, anythingLike.
It's certain stuff you could dowhere you could lose your
certification, you know.
So you got to protect it.
And so when you get thatmentality like this is valuable,
(11:34):
I got to protect it.
All of a sudden, you like, likeme, I'd be like bro, you know, I
still fuck with a couple ofdudes that still fuck around the
streets.
But I'd be like, hey, don'tbring that shit in my car, bro.
Like, if we gonna hang out, I'mgonna meet you there, you know.
And you know, oh, you want togo to the store.
Well, shit, I just run and getit.
(11:55):
You know, like it ain't reallya lot that I'm willing to do,
that would jeopardize mylivelihood.
And so, just like this, youknow, you get your culinary arts
certification or anything likethat.
You come home and you havesomething valuable that you have
to protect and by protecting it, just by protecting it alone,
(12:17):
you end up not going back andbeing around a lot of the
bullshit.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Right, exactly, exactly.
And you know it's something.
It's also something like, see,so everything is not for
everybody, and I'm sad to say,but true, but even education,
when it comes to education, alot of these kids, man, believe
it or not, both of you alreadyknow because you're two of them,
(12:43):
but a lot of them are smart, alot of them could pass it with
flying colors, but it's justlike they don't want it, like
it's just not what they want Atthat particular time in their
life when they needed the most,when it's crucial, when it's
most needed.
You feel me Because, like I say, like we both know and
understand, they're so used to.
All they know is the streets,the streets, the streets, the
(13:05):
streets, the streets, thestreets.
And peer pressure, you know,brings a pause to their growth
and development, because nowthey feel that they don't want
to be the oddball out.
And we know and understand too,when we look at today's society
, to the, at a closer look toour youth, that the un-norm is
new norm, you know, and that'ssad.
(13:26):
But it also takes us as grownmen, literally, and grown women,
to like to do the best we canin pulling them up, because,
even though these are not ourbiological seeds, though our
children.
We still need to have thesetalks with them, like me.
This is another reason why theycaught me, father wise, because
I'm always pulling the shortiesto the side when I see the ones
(13:50):
that have the potential as wellas the ones that don't.
But at the same time, I pullthem to the side and I give them
pull-ups and I let them knowlike look that one cool, that
wasn't cool.
There was a better way of goingabout doing it.
If you do it this way, youain't always going to use
violence, so you ain't alwaysgot to be so quick to use your
hands, so use your mind sometime.
(14:10):
You ain't got to be so quick tocuss the CO's out.
Use your mind.
Learn your pin gang.
Get your pin gang down.
You know what I mean.
Get you know what I'm saying.
Get your education and beatthem with your mind.
You ain't got to beat them withyour physical aspect every
single time, you know, becauseyou're not going to win like
that all the time.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
You know, it's two things that go with that, bro.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
It's like I try to do the best I can to them, but you
know it's a uphill battle, butI'm willing to fight though.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yeah, it's two things that go with that, and one of
them is somebody in like yourposition, my position, somebody
especially on the inside,somebody that done a lot of time
.
You know, doing a lot of timeusually comes with a lot of
wisdom, you know.
And so, like you said, youpulling up on dudes, like, hey,
(14:56):
you know, figure out a betterway, and that goes.
You know that old saying eachone, teach one, you know, pass
it on on, because the youngergeneration in prison is wild and
they the same way on thestreets.
Man, like I ain't gonna lie, Iused to think, you know, before
I left prison I used to say likeI'm not afraid to cross an
(15:17):
invisible line.
You know I'm not going out thereto fuck around, but the only
way I would do some shit is ifthey brought it past my doorstep
.
But I'd be seeing these youngdudes out here and I'd be like
these motherfuckers is ridingaround in real life with
weaponry that you see on Call ofDuty a fucking pistol with a 51
clip.
You know a pistol that slideinto a jacket, that make it an
(15:44):
automatic rifle.
I'm like man, hell.
No, these niggas are doing man.
They killing people left andright for absolutely no reason.
Nigga winked at my girlfriendat a party.
Dude, try to holler at mysister at school like they
killing dudes.
So when they get to the jointthey mad unguided and it's good
(16:04):
that somebody like pull up onthem.
Like, hey, you know, figure outa better way.
And it's not all about physicalintimidation to be the best or,
you know, beating somebody up,nothing like that.
Like I had a little young dudewhen I was in there.
Man, he wanted the right poetrybut he didn't want to tell
nobody because he thought it wasweak.
But the dudes that he wasafraid to tell he could beat up
(16:27):
all of them for real, right,right, right.
Like when you start thinkingabout what it is to be a real
nigga, you know, with air quoteslike first, be true to yourself
, be real to yourself, you know.
And then also on the youngerdudes side, man, like you were
saying education ain't foreverybody.
(16:50):
And I learned that myself, man,because when I first went to
college out here I was man forreal.
All through high school andcollege out here I was getting
like mediocre to bad grades.
When I got to prison and I hadthat real thirst for knowledge.
That's when I was gettingstraight A's.
When I came home and I went toOSU, I was getting mediocre
(17:13):
grades again.
But what I realized was Ididn't have a desire to have a
degree.
I made the goal like, yeah, Iwant to get a degree because I
want to be the first of myfamily and stuff.
But when it came down to a forI was like a degree ain't going
to help me, you know, it ain'tgoing to help me make more money
(17:33):
.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
You have one minute remaining.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
It ain't going to help me get to where I want to
be.
So what I realized was I had adesire to learn.
A desire to learn and a desireto get a formal education, or
two different things.
You know, college and justbeing a lifelong learner is two
different things.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Indeed, it is.
Indeed it is, but you transformit from a boy to a man, and
that's one of theresponsibilities and the
beginning of manhood is to knowthat you're tired of being a boy
and it's time to be a man.
So you see the responsibility,the justice, responsibilities
that need to be handled, and sonow you take the initiative to
(18:20):
move you, to put your best footforward.
Now I'll be right back.
All right, bro, thank you forusing GTL.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
All right, so, as you guys know, it's just these 15
minute phone calls, so we'regoing to wait for why I have to
call right back and we're goingto continue the conversation.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Talk to me.
I talk back, brother.
What's good?
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Yeah, what's up, man, welcome back.
Hey.
So for this episode, man, Iwant to kind of talk about some
of the realities in prison,because we talk about a lot
about what it's like after youcome home or what it's like
during the holidays or somethinglike that.
But what's it like day to day?
You know like you was talkingabout you just got moved a few
(19:03):
times in a room.
You know like the reality isthat you're not in control when
you're in prison.
You know as much as you want tobe, you're at the mercy of the
you know institution for it.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
See, and that's what we need to know and understand
too that when we in here and alot of the things that we get
away with, just like in society,a lot of the things that you
know okay, let's take it back tochildhood on a quick side, when
we used to think that we usedto get away with things, and
your mother or your father orboth used to tell you like yo
listen, I've been there, I'vedone that, like you're not
(19:40):
getting away with that.
If I tell you to go left andyou go right, you're going to
fall into a ditch.
It's just that simple.
But the bottom line is you'renever in control because
somebody always has to guide you, and so even in here, that's
why you know they call it prison, you know, and they call it.
You know they call itrehabilitation for a reason, but
(20:02):
at the same time they took therehabilitation part and then
turned it into a negative.
The rehabilitation is supposedto have been the positive, but
they took that and turned itinto a negative.
The system did, and it's sadbecause it only triggers these
younger generation to even actmore wilder and more crazier and
be more ignorant than theyalready are.
(20:24):
And it's sad because the oldergeneration, such as myself, like
I, was cool.
So I work hard to stay out ofthe way, to stay out of trouble,
to do everything necessary tostay on that straight and narrow
and move to a better locationmeaning a better pod or a better
(20:45):
unit or whatever so that I canget myself together and focus
more, sort of like an honor dormor honor pod or whatever you
want to call it nowadays.
But the fact of the matter isI'm here in this pod and I'm
staying out the way, I'm doingeverything right and exact or
whatever, and I'm doing good andme and a couple of more guys
(21:06):
and then they just uproot us andthrow us right back in the pits
and it's like, why are you alldoing this?
Oh well, we wanted to try thisright here, you know, and move
all of the STG dudes meaning theyou know dudes that are
affiliated in gangs and known onrecord and the most trouble
makers or whatever and we wantedto put them down in this unit
(21:27):
so we can watch them.
So you take me, as well asother individuals who've been
out of the way for the last fewyears, and you throw us back
into the pit.
Everything is happening that,so you just jeopardize it.
You just jeopardize one thefact that I've been doing good,
(21:48):
trying to get my security leveldropped and you have to stay out
of trouble.
You can't catch no RIB ticketsRight, so you jeopardize in that
.
And you jeopardize them onfreedom, because you put me back
amongst the wolves.
Now, not to say that we can'thandle being in this situation,
but we've grown and developed somuch to the point that we've
escalated above and beyond that.
We want to be past thisno-transcript.
(22:13):
But then I had to take it backto the fact that.
Think about it and I say, yo,this is their doing, but it's
also a test from God too at thesame time.
And I have to look at it thatway, because if everything
happens for divine purpose and areason and if you put me back
here, then it has to be a divinepurpose I have to have a server
purpose and that purpose that Ichoose to serve that I feel
(22:34):
that came from above, is thefact that me snatching these
little ones up when I can andtrying to save their life by
having talks with them andopening their eyes so that they
can see things for what it isand not what it appears to be.
They show them that there is abetter way.
I even had to challenge it.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
No, go ahead what you was saying.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
No, I even had to challenge a couple of them one
time.
You know, they get on theirhigh horse and they get to
talking their gangsta, gangsta,whatever.
Whatever you know, and you knowme, bro, I'm quiet, I'm laid
back, lay low, I'm still low,I'm humble, or whatever.
But then a couple of them youknow they get crazy or whatever
get bit out of shape for noreason.
So I challenged them.
(23:16):
I said, listen, it's five ofy'all, I'll fight each one of
y'all and if any one of y'allwhooped me, I'll give you $100.
But if I whooped y'all, y'allgot to go to school.
They lifted me, like what.
But do you know that man, oneof those guys none of them took
me up on that challenge, not oneof them.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, that's dope.
Now what?
I'm trying to say is, once youget into the bit man, once you
get well into the bit, hopefullyyou start finding new ways to
respond.
Because that's the whole,that's the only thing you in
control of in there.
You know you not in control ofthe young dudes trying to test
(23:59):
you or the administration movingyou know bed moves or anything
like that and what you incontrol of is how you respond to
it.
And at first, you know, when Istarted getting older in prison,
I started seeing a lot moreyounger dudes come in behind me.
At first my growth was allright.
(24:21):
I understand that I'm older andyou know I may not have the
stamina that I used to have.
I got wisdom and battle tested.
You know.
I got you know the fight IQ.
But what I have now is anunderstanding that as soon as
this fight starts I got tofinish it ASAP, which makes me a
(24:42):
whole lot more dangerous, youknow, because I'm not trying to
show off for nobody.
I ain't trying like and that'swhat made it bad.
It's like you know, I done beento a level three and work my
way down.
By working my way down, I'dhave had to, you know, re
solidify a reputation and try tokeep it hushed so I don't go
(25:02):
back up.
But at the same time, it's like, without fighting, I had to
make them understand like,listen, we ain't gonna do this
Because the young dudes thinkthat if you quiet or if you not
quick to fight, you weak.
I'm trying to say like, bruh,I'm trying to help you and me,
you know you know exactlybecause I said it before, when I
(25:28):
was fresh off the streets, man,I thought I was like this shit,
we know, when it came togetting some work, like we can
go on the back wall right now,like it was, it was any time,
like let's go get some workright now.
But when I seen a dude get youknow some Vaseline and sugar
cubes, put in the microwave for30 minutes and then threw in his
(25:49):
face, I was like oh this shitdifferent.
You know what I see.
When I see, when I was in thehole and I seen dude throw the
glock, dookie on the guard, Iwas like oh this this shit way
different than just being on thestreets and catching some hands
, you know.
So maybe all the magic shadesyeah like all types of shit Like
(26:13):
and when I say that you know Iwas talking about like security
levels.
It's different threats atdifferent security levels.
When we was at level three, Idon't care if you hated somebody
, you respected them because youknew that you could be
physically maimed or die.
I don't see any state trooperscoming here and yellow tape off
somebody's sale after a fight.
Yeah, um.
(26:35):
But then when we got to leveltwo, it was like okay, everybody
want to fight, but it ain't all.
It ain't all shanks and lockerboxes and all this other shit,
this weapons.
We just fighting more often.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
So when I got to level one, not to cut you off,
it was like.
But they just came with a newrule, right.
So it just came with a new rule.
So because you know, the newthing is crashing on dudes,
that's the new thing in thesystem where I will pay you and
you are going crash on somebody,just crashing, in other words,
just catching from the blindside and just hurt them real bad
(27:08):
because they don't see itcoming Right.
So it's been so much of thatgoing on.
Now they came with some new,some new rules now and would
stipulate the fact that if youcrash on somebody, meaning that
you blindside them, that theyput you in a hole for six months
and they raise your.
(27:29):
They raise your level.
You get commissary visits,packages, phone calls.
All of that's dead for sixmonths after you get out the
hole.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Oh, you're on restriction after you get out
the hole.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
Restricted, yeah, and if you end, because a lot of
dudes that do it, most of themare going home.
You know they short timers, sonaturally you're going to go
home on PRC.
So if you have PRC stipulations, guess what?
Now they're adding newsanctions to the PRC
stipulations that you alreadyhave put in place waiting on you
(28:06):
to come.
Now you just added more to that.
So they're not playing, they'retrying to really, they really
try to knock down on thatproblem.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
They're not going to send you up to come back, then
they send you up for your nextbit, exactly.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Exactly, exactly.
And these little ones, they'dbe like oh, I don't give a, I
don't give a fuck about that,they come with that little
bullshit.
But I had to add well, again, Ihad to add a couple of them.
What makes you, what's so?
Fly about crashing on somebody,though that don't see it coming
(28:39):
, though Whatever happened, togive a shooting a fair one with
them all fucking like lettingthem get a fair one.
But, needless to say, this isthe level three mentality.
Level four, mentality, levelfive, mentality, whatever it is,
different levels to this.
And it's like you have to learnto educate.
We have to learn to educateourselves along the way, because
(29:01):
when you try that you hadenough, then you're, then you
try that you had enough, justlike anything else in life.
And so when you start comingdown these levels comprised of
fours, the threes, or fromthrees, or from fours, the
threes, the twos, or from threes, the twos, the ones you see the
difference in the, in the, inthe, in the, in your
surroundings when you're in thepenitentiaries and the different
penitentiaries at differentlevels.
(29:23):
And, like I said, level twos maya little bit be a little bit
more rowdy.
Rowdy because the youngergeneration have taken over
completely.
So with so many young dudes, somany young black males in
prison today, it's sad to see ifit really is, you know.
But they have no guidance, theyhave no structure, they have no
, they have no hope they have.
They don't have anything.
(29:44):
So I do the best I can, alongwith some more brothers, like
yourself used to do, and I tryto pull them in and I try to
help them as best I can so thatthey can see things in a better
way.
You know what I'm saying.
Like you say, at the end of theday, we have no control and the
only thing they try to do iscontinuously pamper us with, you
know, even with the TV anddifferent things that they allow
(30:05):
us to have.
That's just a pampering, to tryto calm us down, like because
they need for us to havesomething to do.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Speaking of, like no control, like you know it's.
It's different at everysecurity level at every
institution, but you really haveto learn how to survive all
over again once you get yoursecurity change, because it's
not the same from a level threeor level four or level five or
level two or level one, likewhen I came, when I was on level
(30:34):
three, you know, speaking ofcontrol, like if you wanted to
go to the phone, like it mightbe a certain gang that control
each phone, you know.
So you might just think, oh,I'm about to go over here and
happen a phone real quick.
And you think like, okay, youknow, ain't nobody in line, I'm
going to call back.
And somebody pulled tight Like,hey, man, what you doing on our
phone.
(30:56):
You like you like what you know,because you don't understand
how to survive around there,certain people that control
certain things and the CEOsmight see it and just turn an
eye, you know, turn a blind eye.
But then you get down to leveltwo.
You so used to that, you soused to having a lock and a sock
ready, a shank, ready, somebaby oil, whatever you know.
(31:17):
You get down to level two andyou you start like damn, okay,
dudes walking around and flipflops, headphones on, like back
to the you know, sleeping withtheir head towards the aisle.
You like man, what the fuckgoing on?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
You know you get down to level one.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
You like okay, everybody just want to talk
crazy to me, Like I want tosmack their mouth.
So you have to like learn, likeokay, like calm down, Like this
ain't the place for that.
You know, I just talked to oneof my homies and he was like man
, I hate it in this institutionbecause it's just so soft.
I was like, bro, you got to,you got to calm it down.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Man, tom, yeah, you got to, you see, and when you
used to being a certain kind ofwait for so many years, it's
like okay.
So it's like it's like mymentality versus an individual's
mentality coming from a levelone that ended in a level one
for 10 years, and then I'mcoming from a level three after
(32:16):
10 years, coming to the street,right.
So his mentality is going to bemore humble, more you know,
more more sufficient, moreunderstanding.
My attitude is going to be likeyou're looking at, don't touch
me, and everything is going tobe like, like aggressive
behavior.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
No matter what you're looking at me.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
You have one minute remaining.
Even playing space,everything's aggressive,
aggressive, but yeah, there's nocontrol.
We have no control.
We have no control over thesystem.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Well, I mean, don't get me wrong, we always trying
to take control.
I mean, once you get a certainreputation like you know, when I
was talking about the old lawdudes, like they keep order for
real, like it used to be, likeif you wanted to do some grimy
shit and you knew somebody of acertain level of respect live
next to that dude you would goand ask them permission, Like
(33:14):
hey man.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
This is between a convict and an inmate.
There are no more convictsanymore.
The system wipes us out.
It just wipes us out.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah, I remember dudes coming to me like, hey,
man, I'm trying to hit up yourneighbor, like is it cool?
And I'm like hell, no, man,keep that shit from around here.
They like, oh, come on, man,you know I pay you if you let me
hit this lick.
Like that's how it used to beand you know now it's.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
Thank you for using Gtl.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
But yeah, though it's like I don't even remember what
I was saying.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
I mean, you know, we were talking about how the
respect factor goes when DeBloiscame over and actually can they
do a hit.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, I mean, that's how it used to be.
It was like you know somebodycoming as permission because
they knew that you know thefallout is in your area.
You know you like no man, keepthat shit from around here.
You know they they be like, oh,I pay you, I pay you if you let
me hit this lick.
I mean some dudes like allright, you know, some dudes like
hell, no, like you know, andit's not even a factor of like
(34:22):
you know you protecting thatperson.
It's really just like you know,it's kind of like a prison
neighborhood watch, like man,you know this, this my area.
It's like this, my area, youknow.
Or even like being on a blockon the streets, you know.
If a certain gang control acertain area or something, they
be like, oh no, no, we can't goover there and do this because
(34:42):
so-and-so control that area, youknow right.
So you know, I used to tell the, the deputy warden when I was
still in grafting man.
I used to tell her like hey,you trying to make all these
changes around here and youmaking them too fast, you know,
because you just trying to rideout all the old laws or anybody
that got more than five years todo, you just trying to ride
(35:05):
them out to another prison andfill this with a whole bunch of
young short timers.
You know, and I'm like thatshit ain't gonna work because
you gonna turn this bitch into agladiator camp If you ain't got
no old law that's in the mix tokind of, and they don't
understand that they don'tunderstand.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
What they still realize is, you see, now back in
the day, right, like definitelywardens and wardens or whatever
the case may be, like theywould have they probably
wouldn't do it themselves buthad intel to come in and ask
questions like you know, whatcan we do to make this spot calm
down or make it better orwhatever the case may be they
(35:46):
actually listen to that shit.
You know what I'm saying andlike.
So when you had to talk withthe deputy warden or whatever
the case, and you was lettingher know, like what you doing
ain't gonna work, like yo youput in, you just sending all of
the old guys up out of here asgrandfather, then then you
sending all of these making thiscamp a youth camp and it's
going to turn into a gladiatorschool.
(36:08):
You have to think one or twothings right.
It's either that's what theywant to happen, or they go, or
they don't want it.
In the blind, they don't knowwhat's going to happen until it
does and they don't listen.
But if they took the initiativeto listen, then a lot of these
institutions will be a lotbetter than what they are for
real.
(36:28):
But another sad thing about thepenitentiary again today is that
it's so extremely overpopulatedwith young males, like young
males, I'm talking 18, 19, 20.
And they in here doing theydoing football numbers and they
don't care.
(36:49):
And it's a pandemic with this,with this, with this drug thing
going on, with this new typedrug they got going on.
It's like all of these babiesdown there I call them babies
because they're so young to me18, 19, 20, 21, 22.
And everybody's hooked on thisroad spraying and setting all
and all the road spraying to K2.
(37:11):
That flows through thepenitentiaries and stuff like
that, you know.
Well you remember when I was inthere.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
I think it was like 2016, 2017, where it was like I
don't know.
It was like in one week it waslike 10 overdoses on the
fentanyl and they had like thewhole place locked down.
They had the dogs in and allthis other shit.
I was like man, but for real, Ithink the problem is that the
(37:41):
deputy warrants and warrantsain't career like law
enforcement no more.
They're not.
They're not career prisonofficials no more.
You got these young dudes thatwant to just get in and fly up
the ranks and they ain't reallybeen involved in it Because,
like you said, I remember beingin level three and they coming
(38:02):
in like, hey, what can we do?
Like shit started to get out ofhand and we noticed it.
So what can we do?
Instead of just being likewe're going to respond with an
iron fist Like nah, because nowwe think we hard, so we ain't
just going to let you punk us.
And I remember they came in andwas like some dudes gave some
suggestions and they was likeall right, well, we're going to
(38:24):
start the movie channel.
We're going to rotate moviesEvery Tuesday, we're going to
switch it up, we're going toplay a movie at this time, at
this time and at this time, andit was like, oh okay, on this
day it's going to be nothing butnew releases.
Next thing you know, you goteverybody sitting in their cell
waiting for the movie to come on.
Ain't nobody trying to donothing bullshit?
And that's a great example ofhow somebody was like hey man,
(38:47):
instead of trying to crack down,why don't we go talk to them
and see what we can do to makedudes chill out?
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Exactly.
But you know, a lot of timeswhen they call themselves doing
that with these communitymeetings, town hall meetings,
they call them, you know, andthen they ask these questions.
And they ask these questionsand In regards to the answers
that we, that they're supposedto take heed to, as far as us
(39:17):
telling them everything that'snot right and exact to the point
where, you know, if they listento us and they follow, they
follow what we say that it canmake things better for the
institution as well as a saferenvironment.
You know what I'm saying.
Don't get me wrong.
Prison is going to always beprison, no matter what.
But at the same time, don'tcome to us and piss on our head
(39:41):
and tell us it's raining,because you know that you really
don't want our help or ouradvice.
Don't come bothering us likethat and try to find out
solutions to that or answers toa solution that you really don't
want the answers to.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
And that's all.
I'm saying of course that'sconsidered.
You put your.
I said we seen a heaven toowhere you put in your
suggestions and you seeeverybody else put in their
suggestions and out of singlething change.
You don't hear nothing elseabout it.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
And then one thing that I want to put out there too
, and I pray, I pray thatsomebody in Albany not Albany,
but I'm thinking about New York,but Columbus is listening,
because when Columbus walksthrough any institution or
prison, they always try toconvene for us to be locked down
(40:34):
at the time that they bringthem through certain areas, so
that we can't pull them to theside and talk to the bigger
weeks that are up in Columbus.
That'll take the initiative toreally listen, because some of
the people will listen.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
And they don't want that to happen.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
And we as the inmates , we not stupid.
We know who the people are thatare listening before they even
step on the premises.
Exactly.
So you write a lot of timeswhen the people from central
office in the capital, columbus,when they come and walk through
a prison, everybody locked downand they'll take them to a
specific block that they thinkis a safe block from the being,
(41:12):
they think that the dudes arehappy and not going to complain
too much and they think that youknow and they be like, okay,
we're going to leave these guysout and we're going to take them
on a tour.
Of this block it's the clean one, it's the one that got all the
stuff working in it.
Ain't nothing broken?
Exactly.
And so when they walk through,dudes just sitting there playing
(41:33):
chess, playing Scrabble, youknow kicking it.
They ain't saying nothing, theyain't doing nothing, they don't
even want to talk to them.
Really, they don't even knowwho they are probably.
But you know, that's one blockout of the whole institution.
Everybody else is like man,it's damn roof leaking and they
be locking us down all the time.
And you know they done tore myshit up and damaged my property,
(41:55):
or they, you know a lot ofthings, yo a lot of things, man,
but yeah, for us, hello, yeah,I'm that.
Speaker 4 (42:04):
Yeah, but as far as you know, getting back on that
control issue, you know, likethey, they tend to put us in
positions sometimes to thinkthat we are in control when
we're really not, you know.
But they quick to let you knowtoo that you're not in control,
because with a, with a quick,with the, with the punch of a
(42:26):
button I'm gonna set me downwith a punch of a button they
can stop your visits, stopanything they want to stop.
Yeah, the click of a button.
You understand what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
I just try to say that they wanted to.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
right now they can cut me off, huh.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
I used to try to say that all the time, like, like
you said, visits, like they, forno reason and no warning.
They could just be like, nah,you ain't got no visits, no more
, they can cut your phone calloff in the middle of it.
All right, your own phonerestriction.
Or you know, like you said,they just move your your, your
bed location.
How many times in the lastcouple of weeks?
Speaker 4 (43:08):
For the last week and a half I didn't move four times
.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
There's some time you sell in, they like, nah, nah,
we changed our mind, you ain'tgot no control.
So I used to tell people, like,when it comes to the level of
not having control down, tomMalt, like a rule 21,.
You know if you've been inprison.
You know in Ohio what a rule 21is.
It is the most basic catch allrule ever and it's a disobeying
of a direct order.
(43:32):
That and out of place is likeprobably on every ticket you'll
ever get, because it's the onlyone that you just can't not get
found not guilty of, becauseanybody can say anything.
They can walk up to you and belike hey, right here in the
middle of the day room witheverybody was standing around
strip naked.
You like man, the fuck out ofhere.
They go like, all right, cuffhim up, right, you know, and you
(43:56):
ain't know why, you get thestrip Nothing.
You just like man, I ain'tdoing that shit, all right,
we're disobeying as a directorder.
We're going to go ahead andlock him up.
We just going to make thatstick until we can find
something else while he in there.
On disobeying as a direct order,we're going to go and tear shit
up Like.
This is the level of lack ofcontrol that we're subjected to
on the inside If they be, like achild, supposed to be at noon
(44:22):
for lunch and they don't servethat shit till 5.30,.
So what, like it's nothing youcan do.
It's nothing you can do, youknow 5.30, they come around with
a baloney bag.
Right, right.
Speaker 4 (44:38):
Or just a peanut butter and jelly, that's it.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Yeah, you know.
So I mean, when you think aboutpeople in prison, most people
out here don't think aboutpeople in prison.
They just think, ah, they did acrime, they should go do the
time.
They don't think about theconditions of doing time, they
don't think about the dangersand trying to stay out the way,
trying to rebuild yourself andrehabilitate yourself.
(45:03):
And then you got danger fromthe little young dudes, the
inmates, or the power happy CEOthat just had a bad day.
You know, they don't know aboutthe struggles of really Right.
Speaker 4 (45:19):
And so and let's get more in depth on that for a
second, because it's like so forour loved ones out there in the
world mainly our women, butfamily members period, when we
tend to act out a certain kindof way with aggression, it's not
because we actually want to, orwe do it in a form of
(45:42):
disrespecting you, because wecan, or anything of that nature.
It's the fact that we have tolearn to adapt to our
surroundings, and then part ofadapting to our surroundings
causes us to become moreaggressive to a lot of
situations, because that's howyou have to respond.
In certain places and certainpenitentiaries, you have to
(46:04):
respond with aggressiveness, andthen it just becomes that
aggressive behavior becomes apart of you.
I don't mean to be aggressive,but I come off as being
aggressive all the time, and sowhat I want to say is for those
who love it, who love us andstill have their hooks in us out
there, to please be moreunderstanding and patient and
just when we come off like that,be patient and just let us know
(46:29):
like hey, tone it down a littlebit, calm down, relax.
This is me you talk to.
Just don't be so quick to takeit to heart and just be like who
the fuck is you talking to?
What the fuck?
Because that's going to makematters worse.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Yeah, communication.
The communication is better.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
We don't.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
I mean, that's really something that we kind of lack
on the inside is communicationskills.
I mean, because, if you thinkabout it, the people that we
need to communicate with themost are the staff, the
administrators and stuff likethat.
But it's a huge barrier whereyou're not allowed to talk to
(47:09):
certain people unless you gotoffice hours.
And I give mad respect, man,because this is some people that
I know in there and I ain'tgoing to throw their names out,
but it's some people some casemanagers, some unit managers,
some captains.
Speaker 4 (47:25):
You have one minute remaining.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Where they was like the most approachable people
ever they had.
Sit there and kick it with you,man.
I've seen one of the captainscome in and play chess with a
duel one time.
It was just sitting therechopping it up with everybody,
like you said, asking likewhat's going on?
Like y'all cool, y'all needanything.
And everybody was just sittingthere, cool man.
They demoted his ass so quick.
Actually, no, actually no, hewas a major.
(47:51):
He was a major and they demotedhim to captain but he was doing
stuff that made the prisonchill out.
You know, he was actually.
He ain't have to worry about noprison snitch, he just sat down
and talked to dudes.
So hey, but look, man, wewrapping up, man.
I appreciate you, bro, Iappreciate you.
I appreciate you.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
I appreciate you anytime, man, anytime, and to
the listeners, thank you.
Thank you for listening.
Keep tuning in, man.
Keep tuning in and getting thegood word, man.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Facts this is another episode of WISES WORLD.
Speaker 4 (48:24):
You already know the great father of the wise First
time world though, baby, wetrying to make it better, right.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Oh, yeah, each one teach one.
Each one teach one right on bro.
Speaker 4 (48:31):
Thank you for using GTL.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
The lockdown to legacy podcast is proud to be a
part of the bus sprout podcastcommunity network.
Lockdown to legacy is recordedat co-hatch in their lovely
audio file room.
Thanks for your scholarship.
Audio engineering is done byour very own Remy Jones.
You can reach us with anyfeedback, questions, comments or
share the love by emailingstories at lockdown, the number
(49:04):
two legacycom, stories atlockdown to legacycom.
You can reach out there too fora free sticker, and you can
find us on Instagram and Twitterwith the handle at lockdown to
legacy and on Facebook at thelockdown to legacy podcast.
Thanks for listening.
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