September 5, 2024 • 69 mins
Hello and welcome to another episode of Real Talk Friday! We're thrilled to have you join us for episode 5, where we dive deeper into the lives and stories of our incredible hosts. Today, we're especially excited to feature Gus Urban, who will be sharing some deeply personal insights into his journey. In this episode, Gus opens up about his life, revealing the struggles and triumphs that have shaped him. One of the most poignant topics he addresses is the challenge of forgiveness. Gus talks candidly about the difficulties he's faced in forgiving others, and how this struggle has been a significant part of his spiritual journey. He shares powerful reflections on how his faith and relationship with God have played a crucial role in transforming his heart and perspective. Throughout their conversation, Gus and Rohan explore themes of divine love, the transformative power of forgiveness, and the salvation that comes through Jesus. Their discussion is both heartfelt and thought-provoking, offering listeners a deeper understanding of how faith can impact our lives in profound ways. As always, we encourage you to engage with us beyond the episode. Don’t forget to follow, like, and subscribe to our channel to stay updated with all our latest content. We also invite you to connect with us on Facebook and Instagram—your thoughts and feedback are always welcome. We hope you find inspiration and encouragement in Gus's story. Enjoy the episode, and thank you for being part of our Real Talk Friday community!
Logan City Christian Church is a vibrant growing church committed to serving and meeting the needs of our community and beyond through the various ministries within. We as a church welcome you to come visit this Sunday and be part of an active, excited team reaching the world one day at a time. Sunday Service | 9:30am Friday Youth Service | 6:30pm Thursday Prayer Meeting | 7pm Address | 13 Watland Street, Springwood Qld 4127 Church Website | www.logancitychristianchurch.com United World Ministries | www.unitedworldministries.com Instagram | @logancitychristianchurch Facebook | @logancitychristianchurch
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Real Talk Friday with your hosts Rohan Das and Gus Urban.
(00:13):
In this groundbreaking podcast segment, we delve deep into the lives of individuals whose
journey has been profoundly transformed by their faith.
From the trial of adversity to the triumph of redemption, we explore real stories, real
people whose encounter with God has reshaped their existence.
Join us as we embark on a candid and enlightening journey where authenticity meets spirituality
(00:35):
every Friday on Real Talk Friday, part of Logan City Christian Church.
Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Real Talk Friday.
We're so glad that you could join us today.
As you can see, we're in a different studio.
This is our second one that we built.
So it's very exciting to be here Rohan.
Thank you for joining me.
(00:55):
Well no, thank you for having me and thank you for all our viewers who support us and
do so many things for this ministry.
We really appreciate you guys.
We pray for you guys and we really, without you guys and without your support, this wouldn't
have happened.
Nah, that's right.
It does take a lot of effort to do one of these and we have a busy schedule.
(01:19):
You're an associate pastor in this church.
You have so many other responsibilities.
But I think God's giving us that strength to come every week and deliver such beautiful
content out there that people are actually coming up to us and saying, hey, we really
love it.
Yeah, that's right.
And really it's only by the grace of God that we can continue to do this.
(01:41):
It gets busy.
It can be stressful at times.
I feel like I'm the world's greatest juggler at the moment.
So just so much is going on.
I feel you because there's so many things happening in our personal life too.
You have a family.
I have a job, a very demanding job too.
(02:02):
But I think God really wants us to do this and we can always find time to do His work.
And I fail to understand when people say, I don't have time because we can't find time.
And both of us are a testament to that because if people know us outside of this, know how
busy we are.
(02:22):
Well, from the time that for me personally when I get up, it's go, go, go with organizing
kids and stuff like that and then coming here, setting up.
We've got a lot going on after when we finish here.
So I'm normally done by 7.38 o'clock at night.
(02:44):
That's when I actually stop.
So it's nothing to do 12 to 14 hours a day.
Because this is more than a full time job.
Doing work for Christ is more than a full time job.
But it's different from a full time job because He gives you that power.
He gives you that peace.
He gives you so much more.
(03:05):
And I love that.
But yeah.
So today we thought we're going to have a conversation with you because I think like,
you know, we look at our podcast, you know, the number one podcast that is out there is
Who is Gus and Who is Rohan?
That was the first ever we did.
That's right.
(03:25):
Yeah.
And guys like to know a little bit about our story.
And of course, we haven't said everything to our viewers, but they would want to hear
more of our story.
Well, the thing is, like we've interviewed a lot of people, a lot of great people.
I sort of feel blessed of, I can't believe the quality of people we've had on our show.
(03:46):
Yeah.
And believe it or not, because I was telling someone like, there are days we come in in
the morning and you're like, hey, we got this person and we're going to interview this person
today.
He's from Tasmania or he's from here.
Yeah.
Like God's actually drawing them to this place.
And you know, like God knows that we are unable to go to them because you know, transportation
(04:09):
and limitation of our equipments.
But the way God's actually bringing them to us, it's just like, you know, today, this
is the person you're going to interview.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
It's just amazing to see that happen.
It is.
It's just, yeah.
I guess when anyone sort of just trusts God, it's sort of like, now that doesn't mean that
(04:32):
we don't plan, we put a lot of planning in as well, but there are times where God just
brings people in.
Like a door will just open out of the blue, hey, this person's up from like when we had
Moses from Tasmania.
Exactly.
It was like, I got a phone call, he's up, organize a meeting.
Yeah.
And I'm like, oh, all right, sweet.
We're going to have a podcast with him and, and Junior and others like that.
(04:53):
It's amazing how that happens.
And I love that because the day before we're always set and we are like, you know, let's
get the equipments ready.
Yeah.
Because we just don't know who's going to come, but we know the Holy Spirit telling us someone's
going to come.
Yeah.
So we get all equipments ready and let's do this interview whenever, like when Moses came,
we have the equipments ready.
(05:14):
He just needed to come in, sit down and do the interview.
That's right.
And it's just, it's, I just can't explain.
There's no words to explain what God's doing with this ministry.
It's good.
Yeah.
And at the end of the day, you and I both know that this isn't our podcast.
Yeah, exactly.
This is not our podcast.
And real top Fridays is something God's actually put in both of our hearts.
(05:38):
When we had that conversation in McDonald's about it.
That was a wild day.
That was a wild day.
But like, it was just like, Hey, God's put that in my heart to do something.
And then you're like, yeah, I feel the same about it.
And I feel like in the Holy Spirit put this podcast into both of our hearts to start.
And I think one of the biggest challenges, you know, trying to, as I said, juggle, juggling
(06:05):
our life and the ministry, it can go to a point where you can be worn out.
Yeah, definitely.
And that's what happens.
Like, you know, pastors wear out so quickly.
And you know, that's where the congregation can come in and, you know, assist.
And I feel like there's lots of churches that, you know, have some sort of support from the
(06:28):
congregation.
Others don't.
Yeah, we're thankful to have such great people in our church.
We do.
We've got a lot of good people.
Yeah.
And, and, but, you know, it's the congregation who empowers the pastors to do so much more
because they're like, they're backbone and support.
Of course, ultimately, God is our backbone and support, but the congregation too, you
know, absolutely serving and doing ministry alongside the church.
(06:52):
It's a lifetime job.
You're going to do it forever.
That's right.
Yeah.
It's not something, okay, you know what, I'm just going to do it for a season.
I don't think serving God is for a season.
No, because it's not a career.
It's not a career.
It's a calling.
It's a calling.
That's sort of like when we had Pastor Rollie on a while ago, and we were talking about
(07:15):
the balance of family and ministry life.
And like what he said was we're going to have to, people have to realize is that ministry
is a calling.
It's not a career.
Exactly.
And with that calling is a grace to do it.
And we definitely need to operate in the bounds of wisdom, but there's a grace there.
(07:38):
There's a grace there.
And that's just to our viewers, that's not just for ministry.
That's for Christian living.
Yeah.
The basics of Christian living is by the grace of God, His strength, not ours.
His wisdom for everything we go through, not ours.
I mean, lately Christianity hasn't been supported by the world, per se.
(08:03):
There's always that persecution.
And you know, being a Christian, living a Christian life, it's not going to be fun at
some point.
No, exactly right.
And that's the thing.
And if you come with a mindset saying it's going to be fun and we're going to have so
(08:23):
much fun, the reality is it's not going to be fun because there'll be lots of persecution.
And this is exactly what the Bible talks about.
And it's like, you can't come in with knowing that, you know, you're going to get like so
much fun out of this.
I just fail to believe when people, there are some people who come in with that mindset
(08:45):
and then they get discouraged so quickly because, you know, it's like someone put it to me and
someone actually came up to me and said, you know, I do not get this.
You go to church.
I said, yeah, you serve in church for free.
I said, yeah.
And yet you pay your tithes.
I don't get it.
Like, how does that work?
(09:06):
How does that benefit you?
How is this benefiting you?
And I'm like, now that's a very good question because we're looking at the ultimate goal.
We're looking at what our life ultimately will be.
And we're not building a kingdom that is here, earthly kingdom, which you will not understand
unfortunately, we're building a heavenly kingdom.
(09:27):
And this is the problem, you know, I know there are some cultures out there that have
that heavenly mindset.
They're like, I'm going to live a life that is eternal, I need to work towards it.
But then there are some cultures out there that have very earthly like, oh, you know
what, I'm going to live 60 years.
(09:48):
And what's going to happen?
Like, how am I going to like live those 60 years?
And I think we should shift from that earthly mindset to heavenly mindset to know that we're
building.
It will not make sense.
But we're building an eternal life and we're building a house that's not even on this earth.
Yeah, and that's very important.
But yeah, that's a little bit of a conversation we can elaborate on on some other day.
(10:15):
But I think we are going to talk about something very amazing today.
And it's about your bit of your life.
Yeah, we're going to go into a bit of my life, my testimony.
So I think some people have some people haven't heard.
But we'll go into that.
(10:35):
So yeah, everyone knows a bit.
I think it should be pretty good.
Yeah.
Well, let's get right into it.
Because because, you know, I think when people had that you've you've been on Deliverance
Down Under, which is one of another channel on YouTube.
And they've done great testimonies.
You were part of one of the testimony, which is really amazing.
(10:58):
Because a lot of people heard your testimony and they were like, wow.
In fact, someone said they want to come to the church because of that.
So you it was a very if people you haven't watched the testimony, you can definitely
go up to Deliverance Down Under.
It's by Dan.
(11:19):
Yes, his channel and you can watch his testimony.
But we'll just talk about it.
So let's get straight into your testimony.
Let's talk more about it.
What do you want to talk to us about?
What do you want to tell the viewers about your life?
Well, I'll start off with where I'm currently at now.
So I'll start there and I'll work my way back.
(11:41):
Awesome.
But so I'm a father of three.
So three kids, one wife.
Oh, yeah.
That's always good.
Yeah.
So I've got a great family and that really helps with what I'm doing today.
If it wasn't for the support of my wife, she really is a backbone.
(12:05):
And the funny thing is no one knows or sees or understands what she does in the background.
Yeah, she's definitely a backbone in my life.
But I'm very, very grateful to God for sending her because we were talking about just the
other day where we can't always say like there is the one for a person.
(12:32):
Exactly.
But I sort of feel like she is the one.
It sounds hypocritical.
But yeah, so but no, it's good.
So where I'm at now with everything I'm doing, so I got my wife and three kids.
And that's pretty much almost a full time job.
(12:53):
Yeah.
But and I can tell you because like, you know, you saying that your wife is the one you can
see that love you have for her.
But also like in the Bible, you know, it does say that God can be God is the only one who
can give you an understanding wife.
And it's written in one of the Proverbs.
(13:14):
And I think that's definitely what you're talking about.
It's like God giving you that support to because he knows you're going to be doing ministry
and he needs that support.
And even talking to your kids, I think your eldest one, Sam, the one time he came up to
me and we were really busy doing podcasts and he was just waiting for you.
(13:34):
And I said, I'm sorry, mate, we're going to be a bit while and he said, No, it's okay.
Because I know how much this podcast means to my dad.
Yeah.
He said that to me and I'm like, Wow, that's a very understanding kid right there.
But that you can see that support.
Yeah, no, definitely that support that you have in your life.
But I just wanted to put it out there.
Yeah, no, thanks.
(13:54):
Because it was a very, very, yeah, that meant a lot to me.
And I know it means a lot to you.
Yeah, definitely.
So yeah, I just wanted to start off with that.
Just Yeah, so it I've got a really great home.
I'm thankful for that.
That's probably in life.
That's my relationship with Christ is number one.
(14:15):
So every good thing in my life stems from that.
My family would be second ministry third, obviously.
But yeah, that's a very healthy order, where I don't want to win the world for Christ and
lose my own family.
So that's that's my mindset.
(14:35):
But for me, I was born in a little country town.
I was born in Beaudesert in the 80s.
I grew up my mom and my dad, fantastic parents.
Dad was a mechanic, mom was a stay home mom.
And back then, only one person had to work.
Whereas now with the family unit.
(14:56):
Yeah.
So yeah, both people have to work.
It's so hard.
So that that brings a whole new dynamic into society and the way children have been raised.
So but yeah, great upbringing, really good upbringing.
We started going to church as a family when I was six years old.
(15:18):
That's when my dad got saved when he was 30 years old.
He got born again.
Oh, I remember on his 33rd birthday.
It was on a Sunday morning.
We're up super early having breakfast.
I remember saying, Dad, you're the same age Jesus was when he died.
I was just thinking that.
I was like the age of Jesus.
(15:38):
Yeah.
Well, when he died, 33 years old, I think I can't really remember.
But I think his response was like, gee, thanks.
But I can actually just hear him say that.
Yeah.
But no, he was he got radically saved.
Well, both my parents did because they didn't grow up in Christian homes.
(16:04):
Both mom and dad got radically saved.
And what I'm extremely grateful for, which I mentioned last Sunday, Father's Day, was
how they could leave, like fully leave the world and then just completely live their
lives for Christ.
(16:26):
Because sure, that benefits them in their own lives and in their marriage, but it benefits
me as their child.
And so being able to receive that is just such the greatest blessing because kids are
born just in the most different circumstances.
(16:49):
Like, there are kids like I was working with one youth group.
They were handing out food vouchers, like wooly vouchers and stuff like that, and giving
them to kids because they couldn't give the parents money because the parents would spend
it on drugs.
And so in order for the kids to actually have food to eat at home, they had to give them
(17:09):
food vouchers.
And I was just thinking, you know, these poor kids, like they're just so vulnerable in the
condition they're in.
And so I'm very grateful to God and even to my parents for being able to follow the work
of Christ because as we were saying before, it's not easy.
It's not easy.
So they are, my parents are full time senior pastors of this church.
(17:35):
I work with them as an associate pastor here at Logan City Christian Church.
And it's been fantastic.
So really, really good.
Yeah, grew up in country little town.
Back then, Jumbumba was a country little town.
It's not anymore.
But back then, yeah, you know, it's a little country town when it's got a pub and one shop
(17:59):
and the pub's bigger than the shop.
So yeah, yeah.
And so I went to a little tiny school of about maybe 50 to 60 kids.
Yeah, surrounded by farms.
Yeah, so I grew up in the bush from probably about the age of six, we would go out to properties,
(18:25):
myself and my father would go to these properties when the shearing time's on.
So we'd work in the wall sheds and everything like that.
I'd go out shooting.
And that's how I developed my passion for going out bush and shooting and hunting and
all that sort of thing.
It's so great what you can do is when you're not distracted with television.
(18:46):
Absolutely.
Because the phones are not back there, smartphones, but there's so much more you could have done.
It's just like, even in the biblical times, you can see when there was not distraction,
like people were much healthier.
They were much like they had time to think and meditate on the Word of God.
(19:09):
And God spoke to them so easily because they had that time, they could do.
So I think that's, I really appreciate that.
I mean, a little bit about my story is like I come from Kenya too, which is kind of looked
like the same period, but it was not in definitely not the 80s.
(19:30):
Even in the 90s or the early 2000s, it looked like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I totally understand.
But yeah, there's such a great story, you living and having that family time.
So would you say you were very close with your family?
Absolutely.
And even at the time, my mom's parents, we were on acreage.
(19:53):
My mom's parents live next door.
And so I remember a lot of Christmases and birthdays and stuff like that going there.
And it was great.
Yeah, no really good times as a child.
But just like you said, around that time, no smartphones or anything like that.
Even now, one of the things I love about going into the bush and going hunting is there's
(20:15):
no reception.
You go out there, whether it's three days, five days or whatever.
And because the environment is different as well, you unwind in one day.
It's just so different.
It's probably the most refreshing thing a person can do.
(20:37):
It's amazing.
Yeah.
You can also see a lot of during, whenever Jesus went out to pray, he always went out
to the bush.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
In the wilderness somewhere.
Yeah.
It's just, I think it's something about that that is different.
Of course, you don't need to go out to the bush to pray to Jesus.
(20:59):
I'm not saying that.
You don't have to drive six hours west.
You don't have to, but I mean, it's something about that.
I think that it reflects more of like that quiet time that you need with God more than
anything else.
That solitude, isolation.
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
I think that's what it is.
Yeah.
So coming to your childhood, you got saved, as you said, radically saved.
(21:23):
Let's talk more about that.
Yeah, yeah.
By this time, my parents were pastoring probably for maybe three, four years by this time.
So everything happened really quick.
By the time my dad got saved, my mom was already previously saved before dad.
(21:44):
She was praying for him for like, I believe, nine and a half years for his salvation.
So when they both got saved, that's when we all started going to church as a family.
We were driving like 45 minutes one way or an hour one way just to go to church, to a
specific church.
Let's commit them that.
Yeah.
They were and still are super committed, like on a whole new level.
(22:11):
For them, it happened really quick, whereas dad got saved, got discipled.
I think he was in Bible college within a year and a half, two years of being born again
and then in a pastoring role within three years of being born again.
Yeah, it just happened really, really quick.
I think it was about 97, 98 when they were full-time ministers, senior pastors.
(22:37):
It was 2001 when I got born again.
I remember it was a summer night.
I had a friend over.
He was a friend from church.
I was 13.
He was 15 years old.
We attended church.
(22:58):
I guess we had a respectful mindset towards God, but we were still teenage boys.
So God wasn't our focus at all, not at all.
So anyway, I remember one night, mom and dad were in the lounge room of our home watching
(23:20):
a Christian movie.
And myself and my friend were playing PlayStation upstairs.
We come down for a bit.
And then as we were walking back up to go upstairs into my room, I remember this movie
playing.
And for whatever reason, I was just drawn to this movie, like gripped.
(23:46):
I couldn't leave the living room to go upstairs.
So I remember telling my friend, hey, look, I'm just going to stay and watch this movie.
So he went upstairs.
And it was a movie about the rapture.
And I was just, like I said, gripped.
(24:08):
I sat down.
And I remember right at the end, the last scene, it was like an outpouring of heaven
over me physically.
And I remember just weeping and telling my parents that I need to be born again.
And it's incredible coming.
(24:29):
The work of the Holy Spirit is amazing because I knew about God.
But to actually be moved upon by the Holy Spirit is an experience that everyone needs
to experience if they haven't.
Where I knew exactly what I needed at that time.
(24:51):
I didn't need a preacher.
I didn't need to read my Bible.
I didn't need anything like that.
It was the conviction that the Holy Spirit brings was exactly the same when we read in
Acts chapter three, how when Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, preaches to the congregation
at that time that thought they were drunk.
(25:14):
And so their response after hearing the sermon, it says that when they heard the words of
Peter, that they were pierced to the heart.
And that's exactly what happened to me was their response to Peter was, what must we
do to be saved?
So they knew where they were and all their religious duties at that time.
(25:36):
It was all insufficient.
It means nothing.
They realized that they needed to do something to be saved.
And I was in that very same position.
But no one was preaching to me except the Holy Spirit convicting me.
So that night my parents led me through a prayer of salvation.
(25:59):
And when I finished this prayer of salvation, I couldn't see my t-shirt or my shorts that
I was wearing, but I could see my body figure.
It's so hard to describe, but I could just see my body as just a figure and it was all
(26:22):
dark.
And I remember when I finished praying, it was like slowly, very, very slowly, I was
just being washed clean and that darkness was going.
And then where the darkness had left, it was just all pure white.
And I remember just absolutely crying, just saying to my parents, I feel so clean.
(26:44):
And I just kept saying that I feel so clean.
So for me, my greatest experience was being born again.
I've never had an encounter like it since.
And I've been baptized in the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues.
(27:04):
That happened at the age of 16.
And that was a special encounter too, because I remember there was like an anointing to
pray for like three days after that while I was working.
So that was a Sunday night and I remember Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday while I was working.
I just had this anointing just to pray in tongues the whole day.
(27:28):
So that was an amazing encounter.
But being born again was the most powerful thing that I've experienced.
It's so amazing because I was just imagining when you said that you were being wiped clean
and the blood of Jesus actually does that.
And I could imagine the whole blood of Jesus flowing in your body and just wiping you clean.
(27:52):
This is the thing, knowing you and knowing your story, a lot of people would say, oh,
you've not done something as bad things as I have done.
That's right.
Or you don't know me, you don't know my life.
That if you had a simpler life and God can clean you out of that.
(28:15):
I don't think so.
I think God can purify anyone who comes to Him.
And salvation is very important that comes through Jesus Christ.
And that is what people should know.
You were sharing with me a verse and I want you to actually share it with the audience
too and their viewers, because that was so powerful when you told me that.
(28:36):
Yeah.
Isaiah like that.
Yeah, I'll briefly go over that.
Because Isaiah talks about how all of our works, you can read it out later, but basically
all of our works is just filthy rags.
And so even though I had a really good upbringing, I was never on drugs or alcohol or nothing
(29:00):
like that.
I never had a rough life.
I had great parents, a great home.
The presence of God was in my home and yet still there was that sin nature that needed
to be dealt with.
And yeah, it was just me finally getting rid of those filthy rags, accepting the grace
of God.
And yeah, He does the rest.
(29:20):
He does.
And I think it's very important because in Acts, and I'll read it out, Acts 4 verses
11 to 12, it says, Jesus is the stone you build is rejected, which became the cornerstone.
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind
(29:40):
by which we must be saved.
Exactly right.
And this is not a parable.
This is not.
It's direct.
It is.
And there is no way people can say that, oh, no, this means something else.
No, it's a very direct verse.
It's just out there.
Well, Jesus says that I am the way, the truth and the law.
(30:01):
So no one else can get to God except through Him.
So there's another verse where Jesus is so direct and so specific about salvation, no
one can confuse it.
It's just very, very simple.
It's just out there.
It's through me.
That's it.
There's no other way.
(30:22):
And because it's so direct and simple and it's so easy for people to repent of sins
and it's the process is easy.
Then it reveals the heart of every person.
And so, yeah, it's it is cool because, you know, maybe some of our audience are not Christians
(30:43):
who are listening to this right now.
And they might be like, oh, I don't understand salvation.
Like, how could a man in the sky just tell you about this without knowing what we actually
go through?
Which is completely wrong.
This is the whole reason Jesus came to this world.
Yeah.
You know, he was 100 percent man, 100 percent God.
(31:03):
And I know to some viewers that might not make sense.
But then there's so many things that we just are not capable of understanding.
Exactly.
And we must be believing that in faith.
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
You know, we have a book here.
I just saw Billy Graham here.
Yeah.
You know, when he's before he started his ministry, he had so many questions and he
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said it in one of his crusades.
He said, there were questions that I seriously doubted Christianity.
But what did I do?
I believed it in faith.
And that changed everything.
Yeah.
And we all know Billy Graham.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
You know, there's so many things that we must believe in faith.
Yeah.
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And that's very important.
And talking about that verse in Isaiah, I would like to read that.
Yeah, go for it.
Because I think that it's so, so beautiful.
And I'm reading it from the Amplified version.
It's Isaiah 64, 6.
So, for we all have become like one who is unclean.
And talking about unclean, it's like the ceremonial unclean.
(32:07):
Yeah.
And when the word unclean is like like a leper.
So you can very unclean.
Absolutely.
And all our deeds of righteousness are like filthy rags.
We will all wither and decay like a leaf.
And our wickedness, our sins, our injustice, our wrongdoing, that's the word.
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That's what it means.
Like the wind takes us away, carrying us far from God's favor and towards destruction.
And you know, this is exactly what Isaiah is saying.
This is what the world has come to, that fallen world.
This is, you know, we're going to decay.
We're going to pass away.
There's nothing like, you know, after the world is fallen, there's no reason for us
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to live.
There is no point.
But then God, Jesus gives us that hope and that future to, you know, we look forward
to, you know, there's eternal life.
We've abridged that connection between, you know, God and I.
Yeah.
And it's amazing because I'm not into art.
But lately I was like, you know, after I got that painting that you gave me, I wanted to
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look at some Christian art.
And there's this amazing art that was done and it's of God with his finger pointing at
a man and the man's finger is pointed at God, but it's a bit crooked.
And I was like, that's a very weird painting.
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But the explanation for that painting talks about that connection that we're so close
to God.
Yeah.
If he just puts his finger like that, we can touch God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that bridge is what Jesus is.
Exactly right.
And that's, it's just, I don't know.
And I felt like I'm not into paintings, but that's, that was good.
No, I'm not into art.
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I can't draw.
So I give up on that.
Yeah.
I guess for me, like going back to filthy rags that all of our deeds are like filthy
rags.
So it really is like that person that is trying, we can only reach out so far.
Right.
So many people today are reaching in all the wrong directions, different religions.
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And even a lot of people that, you know, let's say they call themselves atheists of that
they don't believe in God, they don't need saving, they're still justifying their righteousness
in one way or another.
Exactly.
Whether it's like, well, I haven't murdered anyone or I haven't whatever.
Well, going back to the Word of God, it doesn't matter what we have or haven't done.
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Salvation isn't based upon what it's, it's not based on works.
Yeah.
It's by grace.
For sure.
Through faith, as it says in Ephesians.
And so when we go back to His Word of, in Isaiah, that all of our deeds are like filthy
rags.
Yeah.
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Well, it comes down to there's no room for pride anymore.
Absolute humility, just I am nothing before God.
Yeah.
And Lord, I need to be saved.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amen to that.
But saying that as humans, we all fall short.
Yeah.
And we're always on that wedge, including me and including you.
There are people that sometimes we have a hard time loving.
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And it's just, you know, they must have done something bad in your life.
And you just have like, it's that command God gives us to love is so important.
It is.
Because even the Bible talks about it.
From Proverbs, it says, hatred stirs up conflict, but love covers all sin.
Yeah.
And so God, like, you know, the commandment that God gives love your God with all your
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heart, all your mind, all your soul.
And love your neighbors just as you love yourself.
Yeah.
That love is pretty big.
It's foundational to Christian living.
Exactly.
That's one of those things where we don't have a choice in whether to accept it or not
(36:17):
or to partake in it or not.
It's a command.
Yeah.
Like, having the scripture reading it, you can't interpret of that, oh, if you feel like
it or if you can attain it one day or whatever.
The way Jesus says it as a command, that we are to love God with all our heart, with all
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our soul and with all our mind.
And then he goes on to the second commandment is like it, you shall love your neighbor as
yourself.
Yeah.
And with these two commandments, all the law and the prophets, you know, are there.
And so what he's saying is that everything that we do, everything that God's laws and
(37:01):
commands come from is those two things.
And it's based on love because God is love.
Yeah.
Now, if we go further on into my Christian walk, much later down the road in my life,
I remember where there was a person and I've had this many times with people where I never
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ever hated anyone, never got to that point, thank God.
But I remember quite a few times that there was like, you know, people that you just would
love to never ever see again.
Oh, don't say it.
I know.
So I was there with one person and so I was really fed up with them.
(37:47):
I was just no more undone plays.
I just don't.
And this was a Christian person as well.
And I remember being heavily convicted about this.
And so I remember saying within my heart, God, I do not have what it takes to love this
(38:07):
person.
It's as if God was in heaven saying, okay, finally you get it.
Right.
And there's so many things in your Christian walk that I've commanded you to do that you
don't have the strength to do it.
Just like the call on Gideon's life, he chose the weakest in the town and the weakest in
the clan.
So Gideon was a big fat zero in society, yet God used him because Gideon believed in God,
(38:33):
not in himself.
Exactly.
And so this principle came into play in my life when it come to love because I knew I
was barren of love.
And my life contradicted God's word because God commanded me to love him and love people.
It says in 1 John, I believe how if we say that we love God and hate our brother, that
(38:59):
we make him out to be a, oh sorry, that we can't love God and hate our brother.
Those two don't, it doesn't work.
Love and hate don't work together.
No, no.
Exactly right.
So if we truly love God, then that should be reflected on how we love people.
And so anyway, getting back to this story, I remember being convicted by it.
(39:23):
So I decided once everyone had gone to bed, I was going to stay out in this room and just
wait on God.
There was a point where I just, I didn't really even know what to pray anymore because I knew
what I was going out there for.
It's like God, I'm here.
You know why I'm here and full stop and I just sit and wait.
(39:45):
And I did that for three nights.
And I remember on the third night, I remember it was just like a love out of nowhere just
come into my heart.
And I remember thinking this is amazing.
This is incredible because I didn't have to force myself to love someone in a fake way.
(40:11):
If you know what I mean, like if people that are listening have been in church long enough,
you know, you're sort of, there's times in your life where you go through a period where
you got to smile and try and love someone or pretend to love someone, you know, whatever.
But I remember that this was, I'm like, this is amazing because in just one moment, I went
(40:32):
from not wanting to see this person to I can't wait to hang out with them.
You know what I mean?
I just want to be with them, hang out with them and spend time with them, have dinner
with them.
And you know, that's love.
We really know the love of God by wanting to be around them, wanting to say nice things
(40:54):
about them.
It's a want.
I'm willing to do this.
So for me, that's nothing short of a miracle.
Like, it's just amazing.
But then, like I said earlier, it's like God was finally saying, now you actually get it.
You're coming to me for your source of strength to do what I've commanded you to do.
(41:20):
And that's for everyone, not just a pastor or a church leader or a minister.
This is for the born again believer that may just go to church on Sunday.
And that's all they may do is, you know, so yeah, I found that incredible.
Yeah, that's incredible indeed.
(41:41):
You know, I totally understand, you know, there's, and to be honest, like in my life
at the moment, there's also a couple of things in my, like I'm trying to work on and exactly
trying to love a person that it's very difficult to love.
Yeah, definitely.
That's where, you know, your story encourages me because I want to go up there and ask,
(42:04):
seek God's assistance in that.
Because I think for a lot of people that not loving, there's always that forgiveness that
needs to happen.
And someone might do something completely wrong and unjust to you, but that forgiveness
has to happen.
(42:24):
Like it's also something God really wants you to do, you know, from his parables that
he talks about, you know, if Jesus can forgive your sin and the world's sin, which is very
big, it is a debt that's been taken away.
It's not hard to forgive someone who might do something wrong to you.
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Yeah, well, it's not hard through the grace of God.
Exactly.
And I feel like where the Christians go wrong a lot is they are faced with having to love
someone or forgive someone.
And really, it's funny though, love and forgiveness run parallel with each other.
(43:09):
It's like they're inseparable.
But I feel like where the church goes wrong a lot is trying to figure out a way to do
it in our own strength.
It's impossible.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's impossible to do it by ourselves, but it's possible through God.
(43:29):
That's what I want to know and want to let everybody know about it.
But at the same time, there's also, it's not going to happen instantly where, you know,
forgiveness will come.
And it's not like, to some people, I believe it happens instantly.
But for me personally, it took me a while and waiting on God to actually, for Him to
(43:54):
give me that strength to forgive.
It's just for me, it didn't happen instantly.
Well, I know what you're saying.
I've experienced that too, where for me, like I said, it was three nights of waiting on
God and then I received that.
And when I compare it, like I know a bit about your story.
(44:14):
When I compare it, what I experienced was nothing compared to what you've experienced.
So I guess as well, sometimes the Holy Spirit is working in different areas behind the scenes
of we may not even be able or be understanding of what He's actually doing.
We just must trust the process and faith.
(44:36):
Trust the process that God is on our side.
Whatever we ask of Him that lines up according to His will, we shall receive.
And that's His Word.
Exactly.
And this is so crucial because, you know, for me, I am open to forgiving the person.
(44:57):
So now that I'm all closed to it, I'm open.
But I'm also praying that God gives me that opportunity for it to happen.
But then, as you said, it might be that other person that God's actually working on at the
moment.
And God's like, keep that possibility open because I'm going to use that trump card
(45:18):
just soon, but keep it open.
But I'm also working behind the scene on this person.
And when I've worked on that person, now time to forgive.
Well that's right.
We just never know what God's doing in the background.
It's sort of like, how many times have we released a podcast and then someone will come
(45:39):
up and go, wow, that was amazing.
It ministered to me so much.
When you're doing this right now, you never know what's going to happen.
So yeah, if I can move on to another point, another big thing in my life.
So as I've already said, I've had an incredible encounter with God when I was 13 with salvation.
(46:04):
When I was 16, I was baptized with the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues.
And those two had a very significant part in my life.
But the honeymoon only lasts so long.
You know what I mean?
And then there's times of testing that come.
So that one of love, which we've just shared, there's another one of where I actually opened
(46:30):
the door to unforgiveness in my life.
To go into this is probably the biggest mistake I've ever made in my life.
Because we always, let's go Genesis chapter 3.
(46:51):
Satan says, God knows that the day you eat of it, you will be like God, knowing good
and evil.
And so Eve is like, okay, well, I'm just going to be like God, knowing good and evil.
They never knew the effects, negative effects that were going to take place from just eating
that fruit.
(47:12):
And so they ate of the fruit.
They realized they were naked.
They hid from God because of their shame.
The ground was cursed.
Eve bore children in pain.
And later on, they witnessed in their own family murder between their two sons.
And so when we open the door to Satan, we think we're going to get maybe this much of
(47:37):
repercussion, just a tiny little bit of repercussion.
But we never actually know what we're opening the door to.
Because when we open the door one inch, Satan kicks the door fully open.
And so this is what I actually experienced when a situation happens.
(48:01):
And I know I didn't really do anything wrong at all, especially for what I was being accused
of.
Okay.
And so I still to this day do believe I was right with God.
But that's besides the point.
(48:22):
That's totally besides the point.
I came at that point to a crossroads, you know, like that fork in the road.
It's like go left or you can go right.
And for me, going left was forgive quickly, promptly, and then move on.
(48:46):
Going right was unforgiveness.
And yeah, we don't always realize what is down the end of that road of unforgiveness.
And usually the easier road to take.
We'll see it time.
It is unforgiveness.
When we're at that point, when we are offended, we are at that fork.
(49:09):
Like when someone does something and we're offended and we're stirred up, we all are
at that fork in the road of, okay, I need to deal with this right now before it festers
in my life.
But that is the hard way.
It's like Jesus says, enter through the narrow gate for difficult is the way which leads
(49:31):
to life.
And so when we're choosing life, we're choosing forgiveness and love, which is difficult.
And when we're offended, we want to when the flesh rises up, we want to choose unforgiveness.
And that's what I did.
I actually was like, I don't know, the appetites of the flesh was just like, I want this.
(49:56):
You know what I mean?
It's such a bad choice.
It's so stupid.
The same way I got saved and I was washed clean, it was almost like a reversal of choosing
unforgiveness where I allowed darkness to come into my life.
I was never happy.
(50:16):
I had no peace.
I was constantly frustrated.
That flowed onto my wife and my kids.
And it just affected every area of my life.
So no anointing when I ministered.
No fruit in the ministry whatsoever.
(50:39):
So yeah, everyone loses.
And I'll read this because Jesus says, for offenses must come, but woe to that man by
whom the offenses come.
So it's sort of like we have to realize that if you and I are alive and living on this
(51:05):
earth, which we are, and for all our viewers, we're all on the same boat, there will be
days when offenses come.
It's going to happen.
We can't escape it.
And don't worry about it.
It does say, I like woe to them by whom offenses come by.
But that's not our worry.
Our focus is, all right, I need to deal with this offense and really get rid of unforgiveness
(51:32):
and walk in love.
That is the best option for everyone.
Now, you know how you're talking about that long road, that hard road?
That was me right then.
I remember I probably didn't deal with it for maybe, I can't really remember, but maybe
(51:52):
two months, I'd be guessing.
That's a significant amount of time.
It is.
And when life is getting worse and worse, it just seems longer and longer.
I remember coming to the point in my life, I was just thinking, how long am I actually
going to live like this for?
Am I really going to spend the rest of my life holding on to this unforgiveness and
(52:15):
having this bitterness in my soul?
I'm just missing out on so much good that God could be doing in my life and in my family
and in the ministry.
And so I remember it was like the prodigal son, when he come to his senses, that was
like, okay, I need to do something about this.
(52:37):
That was a long, hard journey.
I remember most nights going into my prayer closet and I was so spiritually weak, I couldn't
even pray.
I'm just, Lord, I'm here and I would just sit there.
And this was night after night.
(52:59):
So I would, nine till 10 or nine till 11 or whatever, some nights I'd set my alarm so
I'd wake up at midnight or the early hours of the morning and just sit with God.
I was waiting for that moment like I experienced with loving that person, that like on the
(53:20):
third day was just like a magic wand and everything was okay.
And it wasn't, it really, really wasn't.
And it was such a long process.
But it was like when God was slowly unwinding all this, I guess like barbed wire off of
(53:41):
my soul of bitterness, offense and everything else that goes.
It was like once the barbed wire was being unwound, it was like he was slowly healing
and making stronger what was previously there.
So for me now, comparing myself now to who I was previously, I'm so much stronger, so
(54:08):
much wiser.
I know that's an area I never ever want to go down.
But prior it was like, well, I'm just going to be offended and it was foolishness.
But it seemed like there was a lot of immaturity intertwined in that.
Whereas now this experience has given me, made me a lot more mature.
(54:29):
I think there are times that you're going to go through that.
There are times that you're going to go through the deepest, darkest valley.
But I felt that most of the time I went through all that, God shined a lot more brighter during
those times.
And I think when you were going through these things, God was making you stronger and you
(54:54):
were kind of forming that relationship with God.
Well that was only once I came to my senses.
I ended up repenting to this person, even though I'd done nothing wrong.
It's always hard.
But you knew it was the right thing to do.
(55:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
It definitely was.
That's what God wanted you to do.
It was a hundred percent.
And all that time waiting on God in the prayer closet, I think it was probably about a month
just to bring me to that point of being able to repent.
It was like the prodigal son comes back and says, you know, forgive me Father for I've
(55:39):
sinned against heaven and against you.
So he was restored with his biological father, but he was also restored spiritually with
his heavenly father.
And the same was with me where I was restored with this person in our earthly relationship,
but there was a reconnecting with God spiritually at the same time.
(56:03):
Because God really loves a forgiving person.
Absolutely.
And, you know, if you look at the story that you said in Genesis of when Adam and Eve caused
this great sin, of course God was angry.
God kicked them out of the Garden of Eden.
But what we fail to see sometimes is what he did just before that.
(56:25):
He made clothes for them.
He did, yeah.
That is love.
It is.
And when I look at it in that perspective, he was so angry.
I can imagine, you know, I created you and I told you not to do this, but you did it.
And sometimes we are like that because we face that situation like, you know, what did
(56:47):
I do wrong that you had to do this to me?
But then in all that situation, God still showed his love to them.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And that says so much about his character and who he is and how he wants us to be.
(57:07):
He was angry, but he yet showed love.
Absolutely.
God is merciful at the end of the day.
And it's amazing, but there are still consequences that we need to understand that happens.
There is always an action for whatever you do wrong.
But he was still with them.
He was still with Adam and Eve.
(57:29):
He still loved them so much.
And with their children as well.
Exactly.
In Genesis 4, we see how that it says in the process of time that Abel gave an offering,
Cain gave an offering.
And then even later on where God was communicating, he was talking to Cain as well.
Even after he killed his brother.
(57:52):
It's like, yeah, God is always there.
Absolutely.
But there are always consequences for our sin.
And so I experienced that when I actually chose to rebel against God's word.
And that's very, very dangerous.
I know of people that are doing that this day that definitely call themselves Christian.
(58:16):
But the rebellion towards, see, they think they're okay with God.
But when there's rebellion, there's a strain on that relationship.
For sure.
When people know the word of God and based on emotion, choose to choose their emotion
(58:39):
over God's word and his laws.
It never ends well.
It doesn't.
And even these people that I do know currently that are in these situations, I can see that
in their personal life of what they never would have thought of doing before, they're
(59:01):
doing now.
And then it's scary to think of the repercussions that it's going to have on their children
and generations to come.
It's sort of like, could we imagine, like, we witness to someone on the street and they
go, oh, yeah, I used to go to church with my grandmother or whatever, for example.
(59:22):
And it's like, well, where did this actually decay?
What took place in order to stop the blessing of God flowing from one generation to the
next?
And so for me, one of the beautiful things about forgiveness is one, it's not my strength.
It's my choice, but it's not my ability.
(59:46):
And so this really is the goodness of God that I can choose to forgive.
I can choose to hold on to unforgiveness.
I'm going to receive two totally different outcomes.
The moment I chose to forgive, it wasn't an instant miracle, right?
(01:00:06):
It wasn't an instant thing.
But that was me choosing life, choosing a path to redeem everything that I'd let go
of.
Yeah.
So.
It's amazing what you did.
I know it was definitely difficult for you and all of other people, forgiveness is a
(01:00:27):
difficult road.
Yeah.
But as you said, that has to be done.
Has to be done.
At the end of the day, there are consequences for certain things.
And if this person has done something wrong to you, you need to forgive because ultimately
God has consequences for that situation, that person, whoever must have done wrong to you,
(01:00:53):
they will get their consequences.
But that's for God to decide.
Yeah.
Well, the thing is Matthew 18 says, if a brother sins against you and go discuss his faults
between the two of you, right?
Well, I totally ignored that.
I didn't want to do that.
I just wanted to choose unforgiveness.
You know what I mean?
(01:01:14):
Because that unforgiveness ends up becoming, you know, hatred.
It starts becoming revenge, envy.
It's like a root of so many things.
It is.
It really is.
So, a friend that you have, you can't forgive, you can't forgive, and you need to forgive.
You need to forgive because the devil is like, now, what do I do?
(01:01:37):
Exactly right.
I've got him and I've become a trophy in the devil's cabinet.
It's like a shame to him because he's like, you know, it's shameful because the devil
has nothing more he can do.
You forgive him.
Well, the funny thing is about this situation of unforgiveness in my life, was that if I
and it would have been done there and there. It is just really really stupid on my behalf.
(01:02:03):
Yeah well we thank God for wisdom. Where you are right now is God giving you that wisdom and that's what we need to do.
And it's just like sometimes it's difficult in that situation but as you say we always look at and another interesting thing you said is like Adam and Eve.
(01:02:27):
You know what they were looking at was just that short-lived happiness of eating that fruit.
Yeah a moment.
A moment and that's what we look at. We were like if we look at it like in that season we're like let's just forgive.
There's a whole other, it will change your entire life. And we don't see that. We always want to live in that moment and be like I hate you.
(01:02:50):
Well that's right.
I'm not going to forgive you. You have done this to me. You have done that to me.
You know there are great stories out there of Christian forgiving Christians.
I watched a long time ago a documentary about the genocide that happened in Rwanda.
Ah yeah.
And one of the journalists bought and it was not a Christian journalist bought this to a lady and a man together and they asked,
(01:03:18):
how are you able to forgive this man who killed your entire family, raped your entire family?
How are you able to forgive this person? And one answer he said is through God.
Absolutely.
And that was powerful. And he said I forgive you.
Well see that's probably one of the best examples because I feel like there's not a person listening and myself included that know that that is impossible to do in our own strength.
(01:03:53):
Exactly.
It is impossible. If someone did that to my family, I've got four guns to choose from at home.
So but that's that's the flesh.
Yeah.
Right. But yeah, through the grace of God, all things are possible.
Yeah.
Every weakness can be made strong through Christ Jesus.
(01:04:18):
Amen.
Well that was a very good conversation, wasn't it?
It went pretty deep.
Yeah. Yeah. I love this conversation.
Yeah, it's good.
And I think I think this is something new for our viewers.
You know, we we have some great conversation behind the cameras.
We always do. And we were like, if only if we could record this.
(01:04:40):
Yeah, we've done that so many times.
And I think today was such a great conversation for you guys.
And I feel like there's someone out there that needed to listen to this.
Yeah.
And this is going to be on the Internet forever, so you can always go back and listen to this.
But I think like forgiveness is important.
(01:05:01):
Love is important.
And it's just sometimes we can never understand how God works in certain things.
Yeah.
But it's just we are not meant to do that.
We're just not capable.
And we should just leave the work of God to God and just follow what he commands us to do.
(01:05:25):
That's right.
The reason why I chose these two things to talk about,
because there's a lot of different things that I could talk about in my life, good and bad.
I chose these two things was because there are a lot of things that we can do that affect us only.
Yeah.
When it comes to love and forgiveness, it's about others.
(01:05:48):
Yeah.
And I think there's a greater responsibility upon us as believers to make sure that,
sure if we're going to do something and it affects us, well that still has a negative effect, right?
But when we go against God's Word in these areas, it's affecting the body of Christ.
And that's a lot.
It has a greater consequence, I personally believe.
(01:06:11):
Yeah.
So look, if I can finish on this, viewers, I just want to say that whatever you're facing,
no matter how big the mountain is, God is able to remove that, give you a grace to overcome,
give you a strength to continue another day.
(01:06:36):
Matthew, sorry, Mark 11, 23, that whoever says unto this mountain, to be removed and cast in the sea
and does not doubt in their heart but believes in the things that they say is true, then God will do it for them.
So if I can encourage you that believe that God will do a miracle in your life,
whether it be addiction to drugs, alcohol, pornography, could be hatred, bitterness, envy,
(01:07:05):
whatever it is, you could have had a terrible relationship that's ended, whatever it is,
can you believe that God can restore you as a person and if it's relational that He can restore you
and the other person and restore that relationship or if that is not possible,
(01:07:27):
that at least you would be in right standing with God.
So I just want to encourage you with that.
God is able. God is able to work in your life.
We don't have the strength or the ability to truly love and forgive like God has commanded us,
but we have the ability to choose the grace of God over our lives which connects us to God.
(01:07:50):
Amen. And with that, thank you guys for joining us for another great conversation.
I really loved it because it's a season that I'm going through and this conversation actually builds me up.
It helps me and I'm sure it helps you guys too.
So please like, subscribe and follow for and encourage us, give us, email us, write to us,
(01:08:15):
message us because we want to hear how we're impacting, how this ministry is impacting you
because we want to do more of this and if you do like it, just message us if it's on the WhatsApp group
or by email or if you're from the church.
Comments.
Comments and if you're from the church, come up to us, talk to us.
We would love that.
But what we do is because God put all this in our heart to deliver to you guys
(01:08:39):
and I think that's very important because we're obedient to what He wants us to do.
And I think that's very important.
But thank you for another conversation with Gus and Rohan.
I don't think that's going to be our tagline yet because we've not come up with what we're going to call this segment.
But God will put that, the Holy Spirit will tell us what we should call it.
(01:09:01):
But for now, thank you for joining us and we'll be back for another episode.
(01:09:31):
Thank you for tuning in and until next time, may your faith journey be filled with grace, understanding and the unbeavering presence of God.
Stay tuned for more Real Talk every Friday on Real Talk Friday.
Welcome to Real Talk Friday with your hosts Rohan Das and Gus Urban.
(00:13):
In this groundbreaking podcast segment, we delve deep into the lives of individuals whose
journey has been profoundly transformed by their faith.
From the trial of adversity to the triumph of redemption, we explore real stories, real
people whose encounter with God has reshaped their existence.
Join us as we embark on a candid and enlightening journey where authenticity meets spirituality
(00:35):
every Friday on Real Talk Friday, part of Logan City Christian Church.
Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Real Talk Friday.
We're so glad that you could join us today.
As you can see, we're in a different studio.
This is our second one that we built.
So it's very exciting to be here Rohan.
Thank you for joining me.
(00:55):
Well no, thank you for having me and thank you for all our viewers who support us and
do so many things for this ministry.
We really appreciate you guys.
We pray for you guys and we really, without you guys and without your support, this wouldn't
have happened.
Nah, that's right.
It does take a lot of effort to do one of these and we have a busy schedule.
(01:19):
You're an associate pastor in this church.
You have so many other responsibilities.
But I think God's giving us that strength to come every week and deliver such beautiful
content out there that people are actually coming up to us and saying, hey, we really
love it.
Yeah, that's right.
And really it's only by the grace of God that we can continue to do this.
(01:41):
It gets busy.
It can be stressful at times.
I feel like I'm the world's greatest juggler at the moment.
So just so much is going on.
I feel you because there's so many things happening in our personal life too.
You have a family.
I have a job, a very demanding job too.
(02:02):
But I think God really wants us to do this and we can always find time to do His work.
And I fail to understand when people say, I don't have time because we can't find time.
And both of us are a testament to that because if people know us outside of this, know how
busy we are.
(02:22):
Well, from the time that for me personally when I get up, it's go, go, go with organizing
kids and stuff like that and then coming here, setting up.
We've got a lot going on after when we finish here.
So I'm normally done by 7.38 o'clock at night.
(02:44):
That's when I actually stop.
So it's nothing to do 12 to 14 hours a day.
Because this is more than a full time job.
Doing work for Christ is more than a full time job.
But it's different from a full time job because He gives you that power.
He gives you that peace.
He gives you so much more.
(03:05):
And I love that.
But yeah.
So today we thought we're going to have a conversation with you because I think like,
you know, we look at our podcast, you know, the number one podcast that is out there is
Who is Gus and Who is Rohan?
That was the first ever we did.
That's right.
(03:25):
Yeah.
And guys like to know a little bit about our story.
And of course, we haven't said everything to our viewers, but they would want to hear
more of our story.
Well, the thing is, like we've interviewed a lot of people, a lot of great people.
I sort of feel blessed of, I can't believe the quality of people we've had on our show.
(03:46):
Yeah.
And believe it or not, because I was telling someone like, there are days we come in in
the morning and you're like, hey, we got this person and we're going to interview this person
today.
He's from Tasmania or he's from here.
Yeah.
Like God's actually drawing them to this place.
And you know, like God knows that we are unable to go to them because you know, transportation
(04:09):
and limitation of our equipments.
But the way God's actually bringing them to us, it's just like, you know, today, this
is the person you're going to interview.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
It's just amazing to see that happen.
It is.
It's just, yeah.
I guess when anyone sort of just trusts God, it's sort of like, now that doesn't mean that
(04:32):
we don't plan, we put a lot of planning in as well, but there are times where God just
brings people in.
Like a door will just open out of the blue, hey, this person's up from like when we had
Moses from Tasmania.
Exactly.
It was like, I got a phone call, he's up, organize a meeting.
Yeah.
And I'm like, oh, all right, sweet.
We're going to have a podcast with him and, and Junior and others like that.
(04:53):
It's amazing how that happens.
And I love that because the day before we're always set and we are like, you know, let's
get the equipments ready.
Yeah.
Because we just don't know who's going to come, but we know the Holy Spirit telling us someone's
going to come.
Yeah.
So we get all equipments ready and let's do this interview whenever, like when Moses came,
we have the equipments ready.
(05:14):
He just needed to come in, sit down and do the interview.
That's right.
And it's just, it's, I just can't explain.
There's no words to explain what God's doing with this ministry.
It's good.
Yeah.
And at the end of the day, you and I both know that this isn't our podcast.
Yeah, exactly.
This is not our podcast.
And real top Fridays is something God's actually put in both of our hearts.
(05:38):
When we had that conversation in McDonald's about it.
That was a wild day.
That was a wild day.
But like, it was just like, Hey, God's put that in my heart to do something.
And then you're like, yeah, I feel the same about it.
And I feel like in the Holy Spirit put this podcast into both of our hearts to start.
And I think one of the biggest challenges, you know, trying to, as I said, juggle, juggling
(06:05):
our life and the ministry, it can go to a point where you can be worn out.
Yeah, definitely.
And that's what happens.
Like, you know, pastors wear out so quickly.
And you know, that's where the congregation can come in and, you know, assist.
And I feel like there's lots of churches that, you know, have some sort of support from the
(06:28):
congregation.
Others don't.
Yeah, we're thankful to have such great people in our church.
We do.
We've got a lot of good people.
Yeah.
And, and, but, you know, it's the congregation who empowers the pastors to do so much more
because they're like, they're backbone and support.
Of course, ultimately, God is our backbone and support, but the congregation too, you
know, absolutely serving and doing ministry alongside the church.
(06:52):
It's a lifetime job.
You're going to do it forever.
That's right.
Yeah.
It's not something, okay, you know what, I'm just going to do it for a season.
I don't think serving God is for a season.
No, because it's not a career.
It's not a career.
It's a calling.
It's a calling.
That's sort of like when we had Pastor Rollie on a while ago, and we were talking about
(07:15):
the balance of family and ministry life.
And like what he said was we're going to have to, people have to realize is that ministry
is a calling.
It's not a career.
Exactly.
And with that calling is a grace to do it.
And we definitely need to operate in the bounds of wisdom, but there's a grace there.
(07:38):
There's a grace there.
And that's just to our viewers, that's not just for ministry.
That's for Christian living.
Yeah.
The basics of Christian living is by the grace of God, His strength, not ours.
His wisdom for everything we go through, not ours.
I mean, lately Christianity hasn't been supported by the world, per se.
(08:03):
There's always that persecution.
And you know, being a Christian, living a Christian life, it's not going to be fun at
some point.
No, exactly right.
And that's the thing.
And if you come with a mindset saying it's going to be fun and we're going to have so
(08:23):
much fun, the reality is it's not going to be fun because there'll be lots of persecution.
And this is exactly what the Bible talks about.
And it's like, you can't come in with knowing that, you know, you're going to get like so
much fun out of this.
I just fail to believe when people, there are some people who come in with that mindset
(08:45):
and then they get discouraged so quickly because, you know, it's like someone put it to me and
someone actually came up to me and said, you know, I do not get this.
You go to church.
I said, yeah, you serve in church for free.
I said, yeah.
And yet you pay your tithes.
I don't get it.
Like, how does that work?
(09:06):
How does that benefit you?
How is this benefiting you?
And I'm like, now that's a very good question because we're looking at the ultimate goal.
We're looking at what our life ultimately will be.
And we're not building a kingdom that is here, earthly kingdom, which you will not understand
unfortunately, we're building a heavenly kingdom.
(09:27):
And this is the problem, you know, I know there are some cultures out there that have
that heavenly mindset.
They're like, I'm going to live a life that is eternal, I need to work towards it.
But then there are some cultures out there that have very earthly like, oh, you know
what, I'm going to live 60 years.
(09:48):
And what's going to happen?
Like, how am I going to like live those 60 years?
And I think we should shift from that earthly mindset to heavenly mindset to know that we're
building.
It will not make sense.
But we're building an eternal life and we're building a house that's not even on this earth.
Yeah, and that's very important.
But yeah, that's a little bit of a conversation we can elaborate on on some other day.
(10:15):
But I think we are going to talk about something very amazing today.
And it's about your bit of your life.
Yeah, we're going to go into a bit of my life, my testimony.
So I think some people have some people haven't heard.
But we'll go into that.
(10:35):
So yeah, everyone knows a bit.
I think it should be pretty good.
Yeah.
Well, let's get right into it.
Because because, you know, I think when people had that you've you've been on Deliverance
Down Under, which is one of another channel on YouTube.
And they've done great testimonies.
You were part of one of the testimony, which is really amazing.
(10:58):
Because a lot of people heard your testimony and they were like, wow.
In fact, someone said they want to come to the church because of that.
So you it was a very if people you haven't watched the testimony, you can definitely
go up to Deliverance Down Under.
It's by Dan.
(11:19):
Yes, his channel and you can watch his testimony.
But we'll just talk about it.
So let's get straight into your testimony.
Let's talk more about it.
What do you want to talk to us about?
What do you want to tell the viewers about your life?
Well, I'll start off with where I'm currently at now.
So I'll start there and I'll work my way back.
(11:41):
Awesome.
But so I'm a father of three.
So three kids, one wife.
Oh, yeah.
That's always good.
Yeah.
So I've got a great family and that really helps with what I'm doing today.
If it wasn't for the support of my wife, she really is a backbone.
(12:05):
And the funny thing is no one knows or sees or understands what she does in the background.
Yeah, she's definitely a backbone in my life.
But I'm very, very grateful to God for sending her because we were talking about just the
other day where we can't always say like there is the one for a person.
(12:32):
Exactly.
But I sort of feel like she is the one.
It sounds hypocritical.
But yeah, so but no, it's good.
So where I'm at now with everything I'm doing, so I got my wife and three kids.
And that's pretty much almost a full time job.
(12:53):
Yeah.
But and I can tell you because like, you know, you saying that your wife is the one you can
see that love you have for her.
But also like in the Bible, you know, it does say that God can be God is the only one who
can give you an understanding wife.
And it's written in one of the Proverbs.
(13:14):
And I think that's definitely what you're talking about.
It's like God giving you that support to because he knows you're going to be doing ministry
and he needs that support.
And even talking to your kids, I think your eldest one, Sam, the one time he came up to
me and we were really busy doing podcasts and he was just waiting for you.
(13:34):
And I said, I'm sorry, mate, we're going to be a bit while and he said, No, it's okay.
Because I know how much this podcast means to my dad.
Yeah.
He said that to me and I'm like, Wow, that's a very understanding kid right there.
But that you can see that support.
Yeah, no, definitely that support that you have in your life.
But I just wanted to put it out there.
Yeah, no, thanks.
(13:54):
Because it was a very, very, yeah, that meant a lot to me.
And I know it means a lot to you.
Yeah, definitely.
So yeah, I just wanted to start off with that.
Just Yeah, so it I've got a really great home.
I'm thankful for that.
That's probably in life.
That's my relationship with Christ is number one.
(14:15):
So every good thing in my life stems from that.
My family would be second ministry third, obviously.
But yeah, that's a very healthy order, where I don't want to win the world for Christ and
lose my own family.
So that's that's my mindset.
(14:35):
But for me, I was born in a little country town.
I was born in Beaudesert in the 80s.
I grew up my mom and my dad, fantastic parents.
Dad was a mechanic, mom was a stay home mom.
And back then, only one person had to work.
Whereas now with the family unit.
(14:56):
Yeah.
So yeah, both people have to work.
It's so hard.
So that that brings a whole new dynamic into society and the way children have been raised.
So but yeah, great upbringing, really good upbringing.
We started going to church as a family when I was six years old.
(15:18):
That's when my dad got saved when he was 30 years old.
He got born again.
Oh, I remember on his 33rd birthday.
It was on a Sunday morning.
We're up super early having breakfast.
I remember saying, Dad, you're the same age Jesus was when he died.
I was just thinking that.
I was like the age of Jesus.
(15:38):
Yeah.
Well, when he died, 33 years old, I think I can't really remember.
But I think his response was like, gee, thanks.
But I can actually just hear him say that.
Yeah.
But no, he was he got radically saved.
Well, both my parents did because they didn't grow up in Christian homes.
(16:04):
Both mom and dad got radically saved.
And what I'm extremely grateful for, which I mentioned last Sunday, Father's Day, was
how they could leave, like fully leave the world and then just completely live their
lives for Christ.
(16:26):
Because sure, that benefits them in their own lives and in their marriage, but it benefits
me as their child.
And so being able to receive that is just such the greatest blessing because kids are
born just in the most different circumstances.
(16:49):
Like, there are kids like I was working with one youth group.
They were handing out food vouchers, like wooly vouchers and stuff like that, and giving
them to kids because they couldn't give the parents money because the parents would spend
it on drugs.
And so in order for the kids to actually have food to eat at home, they had to give them
(17:09):
food vouchers.
And I was just thinking, you know, these poor kids, like they're just so vulnerable in the
condition they're in.
And so I'm very grateful to God and even to my parents for being able to follow the work
of Christ because as we were saying before, it's not easy.
It's not easy.
So they are, my parents are full time senior pastors of this church.
(17:35):
I work with them as an associate pastor here at Logan City Christian Church.
And it's been fantastic.
So really, really good.
Yeah, grew up in country little town.
Back then, Jumbumba was a country little town.
It's not anymore.
But back then, yeah, you know, it's a little country town when it's got a pub and one shop
(17:59):
and the pub's bigger than the shop.
So yeah, yeah.
And so I went to a little tiny school of about maybe 50 to 60 kids.
Yeah, surrounded by farms.
Yeah, so I grew up in the bush from probably about the age of six, we would go out to properties,
(18:25):
myself and my father would go to these properties when the shearing time's on.
So we'd work in the wall sheds and everything like that.
I'd go out shooting.
And that's how I developed my passion for going out bush and shooting and hunting and
all that sort of thing.
It's so great what you can do is when you're not distracted with television.
(18:46):
Absolutely.
Because the phones are not back there, smartphones, but there's so much more you could have done.
It's just like, even in the biblical times, you can see when there was not distraction,
like people were much healthier.
They were much like they had time to think and meditate on the Word of God.
(19:09):
And God spoke to them so easily because they had that time, they could do.
So I think that's, I really appreciate that.
I mean, a little bit about my story is like I come from Kenya too, which is kind of looked
like the same period, but it was not in definitely not the 80s.
(19:30):
Even in the 90s or the early 2000s, it looked like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I totally understand.
But yeah, there's such a great story, you living and having that family time.
So would you say you were very close with your family?
Absolutely.
And even at the time, my mom's parents, we were on acreage.
(19:53):
My mom's parents live next door.
And so I remember a lot of Christmases and birthdays and stuff like that going there.
And it was great.
Yeah, no really good times as a child.
But just like you said, around that time, no smartphones or anything like that.
Even now, one of the things I love about going into the bush and going hunting is there's
(20:15):
no reception.
You go out there, whether it's three days, five days or whatever.
And because the environment is different as well, you unwind in one day.
It's just so different.
It's probably the most refreshing thing a person can do.
(20:37):
It's amazing.
Yeah.
You can also see a lot of during, whenever Jesus went out to pray, he always went out
to the bush.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
In the wilderness somewhere.
Yeah.
It's just, I think it's something about that that is different.
Of course, you don't need to go out to the bush to pray to Jesus.
(20:59):
I'm not saying that.
You don't have to drive six hours west.
You don't have to, but I mean, it's something about that.
I think that it reflects more of like that quiet time that you need with God more than
anything else.
That solitude, isolation.
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
I think that's what it is.
Yeah.
So coming to your childhood, you got saved, as you said, radically saved.
(21:23):
Let's talk more about that.
Yeah, yeah.
By this time, my parents were pastoring probably for maybe three, four years by this time.
So everything happened really quick.
By the time my dad got saved, my mom was already previously saved before dad.
(21:44):
She was praying for him for like, I believe, nine and a half years for his salvation.
So when they both got saved, that's when we all started going to church as a family.
We were driving like 45 minutes one way or an hour one way just to go to church, to a
specific church.
Let's commit them that.
Yeah.
They were and still are super committed, like on a whole new level.
(22:11):
For them, it happened really quick, whereas dad got saved, got discipled.
I think he was in Bible college within a year and a half, two years of being born again
and then in a pastoring role within three years of being born again.
Yeah, it just happened really, really quick.
I think it was about 97, 98 when they were full-time ministers, senior pastors.
(22:37):
It was 2001 when I got born again.
I remember it was a summer night.
I had a friend over.
He was a friend from church.
I was 13.
He was 15 years old.
We attended church.
(22:58):
I guess we had a respectful mindset towards God, but we were still teenage boys.
So God wasn't our focus at all, not at all.
So anyway, I remember one night, mom and dad were in the lounge room of our home watching
(23:20):
a Christian movie.
And myself and my friend were playing PlayStation upstairs.
We come down for a bit.
And then as we were walking back up to go upstairs into my room, I remember this movie
playing.
And for whatever reason, I was just drawn to this movie, like gripped.
(23:46):
I couldn't leave the living room to go upstairs.
So I remember telling my friend, hey, look, I'm just going to stay and watch this movie.
So he went upstairs.
And it was a movie about the rapture.
And I was just, like I said, gripped.
(24:08):
I sat down.
And I remember right at the end, the last scene, it was like an outpouring of heaven
over me physically.
And I remember just weeping and telling my parents that I need to be born again.
And it's incredible coming.
(24:29):
The work of the Holy Spirit is amazing because I knew about God.
But to actually be moved upon by the Holy Spirit is an experience that everyone needs
to experience if they haven't.
Where I knew exactly what I needed at that time.
(24:51):
I didn't need a preacher.
I didn't need to read my Bible.
I didn't need anything like that.
It was the conviction that the Holy Spirit brings was exactly the same when we read in
Acts chapter three, how when Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, preaches to the congregation
at that time that thought they were drunk.
(25:14):
And so their response after hearing the sermon, it says that when they heard the words of
Peter, that they were pierced to the heart.
And that's exactly what happened to me was their response to Peter was, what must we
do to be saved?
So they knew where they were and all their religious duties at that time.
(25:36):
It was all insufficient.
It means nothing.
They realized that they needed to do something to be saved.
And I was in that very same position.
But no one was preaching to me except the Holy Spirit convicting me.
So that night my parents led me through a prayer of salvation.
(25:59):
And when I finished this prayer of salvation, I couldn't see my t-shirt or my shorts that
I was wearing, but I could see my body figure.
It's so hard to describe, but I could just see my body as just a figure and it was all
(26:22):
dark.
And I remember when I finished praying, it was like slowly, very, very slowly, I was
just being washed clean and that darkness was going.
And then where the darkness had left, it was just all pure white.
And I remember just absolutely crying, just saying to my parents, I feel so clean.
(26:44):
And I just kept saying that I feel so clean.
So for me, my greatest experience was being born again.
I've never had an encounter like it since.
And I've been baptized in the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues.
(27:04):
That happened at the age of 16.
And that was a special encounter too, because I remember there was like an anointing to
pray for like three days after that while I was working.
So that was a Sunday night and I remember Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday while I was working.
I just had this anointing just to pray in tongues the whole day.
(27:28):
So that was an amazing encounter.
But being born again was the most powerful thing that I've experienced.
It's so amazing because I was just imagining when you said that you were being wiped clean
and the blood of Jesus actually does that.
And I could imagine the whole blood of Jesus flowing in your body and just wiping you clean.
(27:52):
This is the thing, knowing you and knowing your story, a lot of people would say, oh,
you've not done something as bad things as I have done.
That's right.
Or you don't know me, you don't know my life.
That if you had a simpler life and God can clean you out of that.
(28:15):
I don't think so.
I think God can purify anyone who comes to Him.
And salvation is very important that comes through Jesus Christ.
And that is what people should know.
You were sharing with me a verse and I want you to actually share it with the audience
too and their viewers, because that was so powerful when you told me that.
(28:36):
Yeah.
Isaiah like that.
Yeah, I'll briefly go over that.
Because Isaiah talks about how all of our works, you can read it out later, but basically
all of our works is just filthy rags.
And so even though I had a really good upbringing, I was never on drugs or alcohol or nothing
(29:00):
like that.
I never had a rough life.
I had great parents, a great home.
The presence of God was in my home and yet still there was that sin nature that needed
to be dealt with.
And yeah, it was just me finally getting rid of those filthy rags, accepting the grace
of God.
And yeah, He does the rest.
(29:20):
He does.
And I think it's very important because in Acts, and I'll read it out, Acts 4 verses
11 to 12, it says, Jesus is the stone you build is rejected, which became the cornerstone.
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind
(29:40):
by which we must be saved.
Exactly right.
And this is not a parable.
This is not.
It's direct.
It is.
And there is no way people can say that, oh, no, this means something else.
No, it's a very direct verse.
It's just out there.
Well, Jesus says that I am the way, the truth and the law.
(30:01):
So no one else can get to God except through Him.
So there's another verse where Jesus is so direct and so specific about salvation, no
one can confuse it.
It's just very, very simple.
It's just out there.
It's through me.
That's it.
There's no other way.
(30:22):
And because it's so direct and simple and it's so easy for people to repent of sins
and it's the process is easy.
Then it reveals the heart of every person.
And so, yeah, it's it is cool because, you know, maybe some of our audience are not Christians
(30:43):
who are listening to this right now.
And they might be like, oh, I don't understand salvation.
Like, how could a man in the sky just tell you about this without knowing what we actually
go through?
Which is completely wrong.
This is the whole reason Jesus came to this world.
Yeah.
You know, he was 100 percent man, 100 percent God.
(31:03):
And I know to some viewers that might not make sense.
But then there's so many things that we just are not capable of understanding.
Exactly.
And we must be believing that in faith.
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
You know, we have a book here.
I just saw Billy Graham here.
Yeah.
You know, when he's before he started his ministry, he had so many questions and he
(31:25):
said it in one of his crusades.
He said, there were questions that I seriously doubted Christianity.
But what did I do?
I believed it in faith.
And that changed everything.
Yeah.
And we all know Billy Graham.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the thing.
You know, there's so many things that we must believe in faith.
Yeah.
(31:46):
And that's very important.
And talking about that verse in Isaiah, I would like to read that.
Yeah, go for it.
Because I think that it's so, so beautiful.
And I'm reading it from the Amplified version.
It's Isaiah 64, 6.
So, for we all have become like one who is unclean.
And talking about unclean, it's like the ceremonial unclean.
(32:07):
Yeah.
And when the word unclean is like like a leper.
So you can very unclean.
Absolutely.
And all our deeds of righteousness are like filthy rags.
We will all wither and decay like a leaf.
And our wickedness, our sins, our injustice, our wrongdoing, that's the word.
(32:31):
That's what it means.
Like the wind takes us away, carrying us far from God's favor and towards destruction.
And you know, this is exactly what Isaiah is saying.
This is what the world has come to, that fallen world.
This is, you know, we're going to decay.
We're going to pass away.
There's nothing like, you know, after the world is fallen, there's no reason for us
(32:52):
to live.
There is no point.
But then God, Jesus gives us that hope and that future to, you know, we look forward
to, you know, there's eternal life.
We've abridged that connection between, you know, God and I.
Yeah.
And it's amazing because I'm not into art.
But lately I was like, you know, after I got that painting that you gave me, I wanted to
(33:16):
look at some Christian art.
And there's this amazing art that was done and it's of God with his finger pointing at
a man and the man's finger is pointed at God, but it's a bit crooked.
And I was like, that's a very weird painting.
(33:37):
But the explanation for that painting talks about that connection that we're so close
to God.
Yeah.
If he just puts his finger like that, we can touch God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that bridge is what Jesus is.
Exactly right.
And that's, it's just, I don't know.
And I felt like I'm not into paintings, but that's, that was good.
No, I'm not into art.
(33:58):
I can't draw.
So I give up on that.
Yeah.
I guess for me, like going back to filthy rags that all of our deeds are like filthy
rags.
So it really is like that person that is trying, we can only reach out so far.
Right.
So many people today are reaching in all the wrong directions, different religions.
(34:22):
And even a lot of people that, you know, let's say they call themselves atheists of that
they don't believe in God, they don't need saving, they're still justifying their righteousness
in one way or another.
Exactly.
Whether it's like, well, I haven't murdered anyone or I haven't whatever.
Well, going back to the Word of God, it doesn't matter what we have or haven't done.
(34:47):
Salvation isn't based upon what it's, it's not based on works.
Yeah.
It's by grace.
For sure.
Through faith, as it says in Ephesians.
And so when we go back to His Word of, in Isaiah, that all of our deeds are like filthy
rags.
Yeah.
(35:07):
Well, it comes down to there's no room for pride anymore.
Absolute humility, just I am nothing before God.
Yeah.
And Lord, I need to be saved.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amen to that.
But saying that as humans, we all fall short.
Yeah.
And we're always on that wedge, including me and including you.
There are people that sometimes we have a hard time loving.
(35:31):
And it's just, you know, they must have done something bad in your life.
And you just have like, it's that command God gives us to love is so important.
It is.
Because even the Bible talks about it.
From Proverbs, it says, hatred stirs up conflict, but love covers all sin.
Yeah.
And so God, like, you know, the commandment that God gives love your God with all your
(35:55):
heart, all your mind, all your soul.
And love your neighbors just as you love yourself.
Yeah.
That love is pretty big.
It's foundational to Christian living.
Exactly.
That's one of those things where we don't have a choice in whether to accept it or not
(36:17):
or to partake in it or not.
It's a command.
Yeah.
Like, having the scripture reading it, you can't interpret of that, oh, if you feel like
it or if you can attain it one day or whatever.
The way Jesus says it as a command, that we are to love God with all our heart, with all
(36:40):
our soul and with all our mind.
And then he goes on to the second commandment is like it, you shall love your neighbor as
yourself.
Yeah.
And with these two commandments, all the law and the prophets, you know, are there.
And so what he's saying is that everything that we do, everything that God's laws and
(37:01):
commands come from is those two things.
And it's based on love because God is love.
Yeah.
Now, if we go further on into my Christian walk, much later down the road in my life,
I remember where there was a person and I've had this many times with people where I never
(37:22):
ever hated anyone, never got to that point, thank God.
But I remember quite a few times that there was like, you know, people that you just would
love to never ever see again.
Oh, don't say it.
I know.
So I was there with one person and so I was really fed up with them.
(37:47):
I was just no more undone plays.
I just don't.
And this was a Christian person as well.
And I remember being heavily convicted about this.
And so I remember saying within my heart, God, I do not have what it takes to love this
(38:07):
person.
It's as if God was in heaven saying, okay, finally you get it.
Right.
And there's so many things in your Christian walk that I've commanded you to do that you
don't have the strength to do it.
Just like the call on Gideon's life, he chose the weakest in the town and the weakest in
the clan.
So Gideon was a big fat zero in society, yet God used him because Gideon believed in God,
(38:33):
not in himself.
Exactly.
And so this principle came into play in my life when it come to love because I knew I
was barren of love.
And my life contradicted God's word because God commanded me to love him and love people.
It says in 1 John, I believe how if we say that we love God and hate our brother, that
(38:59):
we make him out to be a, oh sorry, that we can't love God and hate our brother.
Those two don't, it doesn't work.
Love and hate don't work together.
No, no.
Exactly right.
So if we truly love God, then that should be reflected on how we love people.
And so anyway, getting back to this story, I remember being convicted by it.
(39:23):
So I decided once everyone had gone to bed, I was going to stay out in this room and just
wait on God.
There was a point where I just, I didn't really even know what to pray anymore because I knew
what I was going out there for.
It's like God, I'm here.
You know why I'm here and full stop and I just sit and wait.
(39:45):
And I did that for three nights.
And I remember on the third night, I remember it was just like a love out of nowhere just
come into my heart.
And I remember thinking this is amazing.
This is incredible because I didn't have to force myself to love someone in a fake way.
(40:11):
If you know what I mean, like if people that are listening have been in church long enough,
you know, you're sort of, there's times in your life where you go through a period where
you got to smile and try and love someone or pretend to love someone, you know, whatever.
But I remember that this was, I'm like, this is amazing because in just one moment, I went
(40:32):
from not wanting to see this person to I can't wait to hang out with them.
You know what I mean?
I just want to be with them, hang out with them and spend time with them, have dinner
with them.
And you know, that's love.
We really know the love of God by wanting to be around them, wanting to say nice things
(40:54):
about them.
It's a want.
I'm willing to do this.
So for me, that's nothing short of a miracle.
Like, it's just amazing.
But then, like I said earlier, it's like God was finally saying, now you actually get it.
You're coming to me for your source of strength to do what I've commanded you to do.
(41:20):
And that's for everyone, not just a pastor or a church leader or a minister.
This is for the born again believer that may just go to church on Sunday.
And that's all they may do is, you know, so yeah, I found that incredible.
Yeah, that's incredible indeed.
(41:41):
You know, I totally understand, you know, there's, and to be honest, like in my life
at the moment, there's also a couple of things in my, like I'm trying to work on and exactly
trying to love a person that it's very difficult to love.
Yeah, definitely.
That's where, you know, your story encourages me because I want to go up there and ask,
(42:04):
seek God's assistance in that.
Because I think for a lot of people that not loving, there's always that forgiveness that
needs to happen.
And someone might do something completely wrong and unjust to you, but that forgiveness
has to happen.
(42:24):
Like it's also something God really wants you to do, you know, from his parables that
he talks about, you know, if Jesus can forgive your sin and the world's sin, which is very
big, it is a debt that's been taken away.
It's not hard to forgive someone who might do something wrong to you.
(42:48):
Yeah, well, it's not hard through the grace of God.
Exactly.
And I feel like where the Christians go wrong a lot is they are faced with having to love
someone or forgive someone.
And really, it's funny though, love and forgiveness run parallel with each other.
(43:09):
It's like they're inseparable.
But I feel like where the church goes wrong a lot is trying to figure out a way to do
it in our own strength.
It's impossible.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's impossible to do it by ourselves, but it's possible through God.
(43:29):
That's what I want to know and want to let everybody know about it.
But at the same time, there's also, it's not going to happen instantly where, you know,
forgiveness will come.
And it's not like, to some people, I believe it happens instantly.
But for me personally, it took me a while and waiting on God to actually, for Him to
(43:54):
give me that strength to forgive.
It's just for me, it didn't happen instantly.
Well, I know what you're saying.
I've experienced that too, where for me, like I said, it was three nights of waiting on
God and then I received that.
And when I compare it, like I know a bit about your story.
(44:14):
When I compare it, what I experienced was nothing compared to what you've experienced.
So I guess as well, sometimes the Holy Spirit is working in different areas behind the scenes
of we may not even be able or be understanding of what He's actually doing.
We just must trust the process and faith.
(44:36):
Trust the process that God is on our side.
Whatever we ask of Him that lines up according to His will, we shall receive.
And that's His Word.
Exactly.
And this is so crucial because, you know, for me, I am open to forgiving the person.
(44:57):
So now that I'm all closed to it, I'm open.
But I'm also praying that God gives me that opportunity for it to happen.
But then, as you said, it might be that other person that God's actually working on at the
moment.
And God's like, keep that possibility open because I'm going to use that trump card
(45:18):
just soon, but keep it open.
But I'm also working behind the scene on this person.
And when I've worked on that person, now time to forgive.
Well that's right.
We just never know what God's doing in the background.
It's sort of like, how many times have we released a podcast and then someone will come
(45:39):
up and go, wow, that was amazing.
It ministered to me so much.
When you're doing this right now, you never know what's going to happen.
So yeah, if I can move on to another point, another big thing in my life.
So as I've already said, I've had an incredible encounter with God when I was 13 with salvation.
(46:04):
When I was 16, I was baptized with the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues.
And those two had a very significant part in my life.
But the honeymoon only lasts so long.
You know what I mean?
And then there's times of testing that come.
So that one of love, which we've just shared, there's another one of where I actually opened
(46:30):
the door to unforgiveness in my life.
To go into this is probably the biggest mistake I've ever made in my life.
Because we always, let's go Genesis chapter 3.
(46:51):
Satan says, God knows that the day you eat of it, you will be like God, knowing good
and evil.
And so Eve is like, okay, well, I'm just going to be like God, knowing good and evil.
They never knew the effects, negative effects that were going to take place from just eating
that fruit.
(47:12):
And so they ate of the fruit.
They realized they were naked.
They hid from God because of their shame.
The ground was cursed.
Eve bore children in pain.
And later on, they witnessed in their own family murder between their two sons.
And so when we open the door to Satan, we think we're going to get maybe this much of
(47:37):
repercussion, just a tiny little bit of repercussion.
But we never actually know what we're opening the door to.
Because when we open the door one inch, Satan kicks the door fully open.
And so this is what I actually experienced when a situation happens.
(48:01):
And I know I didn't really do anything wrong at all, especially for what I was being accused
of.
Okay.
And so I still to this day do believe I was right with God.
But that's besides the point.
(48:22):
That's totally besides the point.
I came at that point to a crossroads, you know, like that fork in the road.
It's like go left or you can go right.
And for me, going left was forgive quickly, promptly, and then move on.
(48:46):
Going right was unforgiveness.
And yeah, we don't always realize what is down the end of that road of unforgiveness.
And usually the easier road to take.
We'll see it time.
It is unforgiveness.
When we're at that point, when we are offended, we are at that fork.
(49:09):
Like when someone does something and we're offended and we're stirred up, we all are
at that fork in the road of, okay, I need to deal with this right now before it festers
in my life.
But that is the hard way.
It's like Jesus says, enter through the narrow gate for difficult is the way which leads
(49:31):
to life.
And so when we're choosing life, we're choosing forgiveness and love, which is difficult.
And when we're offended, we want to when the flesh rises up, we want to choose unforgiveness.
And that's what I did.
I actually was like, I don't know, the appetites of the flesh was just like, I want this.
(49:56):
You know what I mean?
It's such a bad choice.
It's so stupid.
The same way I got saved and I was washed clean, it was almost like a reversal of choosing
unforgiveness where I allowed darkness to come into my life.
I was never happy.
(50:16):
I had no peace.
I was constantly frustrated.
That flowed onto my wife and my kids.
And it just affected every area of my life.
So no anointing when I ministered.
No fruit in the ministry whatsoever.
(50:39):
So yeah, everyone loses.
And I'll read this because Jesus says, for offenses must come, but woe to that man by
whom the offenses come.
So it's sort of like we have to realize that if you and I are alive and living on this
(51:05):
earth, which we are, and for all our viewers, we're all on the same boat, there will be
days when offenses come.
It's going to happen.
We can't escape it.
And don't worry about it.
It does say, I like woe to them by whom offenses come by.
But that's not our worry.
Our focus is, all right, I need to deal with this offense and really get rid of unforgiveness
(51:32):
and walk in love.
That is the best option for everyone.
Now, you know how you're talking about that long road, that hard road?
That was me right then.
I remember I probably didn't deal with it for maybe, I can't really remember, but maybe
(51:52):
two months, I'd be guessing.
That's a significant amount of time.
It is.
And when life is getting worse and worse, it just seems longer and longer.
I remember coming to the point in my life, I was just thinking, how long am I actually
going to live like this for?
Am I really going to spend the rest of my life holding on to this unforgiveness and
(52:15):
having this bitterness in my soul?
I'm just missing out on so much good that God could be doing in my life and in my family
and in the ministry.
And so I remember it was like the prodigal son, when he come to his senses, that was
like, okay, I need to do something about this.
(52:37):
That was a long, hard journey.
I remember most nights going into my prayer closet and I was so spiritually weak, I couldn't
even pray.
I'm just, Lord, I'm here and I would just sit there.
And this was night after night.
(52:59):
So I would, nine till 10 or nine till 11 or whatever, some nights I'd set my alarm so
I'd wake up at midnight or the early hours of the morning and just sit with God.
I was waiting for that moment like I experienced with loving that person, that like on the
(53:20):
third day was just like a magic wand and everything was okay.
And it wasn't, it really, really wasn't.
And it was such a long process.
But it was like when God was slowly unwinding all this, I guess like barbed wire off of
(53:41):
my soul of bitterness, offense and everything else that goes.
It was like once the barbed wire was being unwound, it was like he was slowly healing
and making stronger what was previously there.
So for me now, comparing myself now to who I was previously, I'm so much stronger, so
(54:08):
much wiser.
I know that's an area I never ever want to go down.
But prior it was like, well, I'm just going to be offended and it was foolishness.
But it seemed like there was a lot of immaturity intertwined in that.
Whereas now this experience has given me, made me a lot more mature.
(54:29):
I think there are times that you're going to go through that.
There are times that you're going to go through the deepest, darkest valley.
But I felt that most of the time I went through all that, God shined a lot more brighter during
those times.
And I think when you were going through these things, God was making you stronger and you
(54:54):
were kind of forming that relationship with God.
Well that was only once I came to my senses.
I ended up repenting to this person, even though I'd done nothing wrong.
It's always hard.
But you knew it was the right thing to do.
(55:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
It definitely was.
That's what God wanted you to do.
It was a hundred percent.
And all that time waiting on God in the prayer closet, I think it was probably about a month
just to bring me to that point of being able to repent.
It was like the prodigal son comes back and says, you know, forgive me Father for I've
(55:39):
sinned against heaven and against you.
So he was restored with his biological father, but he was also restored spiritually with
his heavenly father.
And the same was with me where I was restored with this person in our earthly relationship,
but there was a reconnecting with God spiritually at the same time.
(56:03):
Because God really loves a forgiving person.
Absolutely.
And, you know, if you look at the story that you said in Genesis of when Adam and Eve caused
this great sin, of course God was angry.
God kicked them out of the Garden of Eden.
But what we fail to see sometimes is what he did just before that.
(56:25):
He made clothes for them.
He did, yeah.
That is love.
It is.
And when I look at it in that perspective, he was so angry.
I can imagine, you know, I created you and I told you not to do this, but you did it.
And sometimes we are like that because we face that situation like, you know, what did
(56:47):
I do wrong that you had to do this to me?
But then in all that situation, God still showed his love to them.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And that says so much about his character and who he is and how he wants us to be.
(57:07):
He was angry, but he yet showed love.
Absolutely.
God is merciful at the end of the day.
And it's amazing, but there are still consequences that we need to understand that happens.
There is always an action for whatever you do wrong.
But he was still with them.
He was still with Adam and Eve.
(57:29):
He still loved them so much.
And with their children as well.
Exactly.
In Genesis 4, we see how that it says in the process of time that Abel gave an offering,
Cain gave an offering.
And then even later on where God was communicating, he was talking to Cain as well.
Even after he killed his brother.
(57:52):
It's like, yeah, God is always there.
Absolutely.
But there are always consequences for our sin.
And so I experienced that when I actually chose to rebel against God's word.
And that's very, very dangerous.
I know of people that are doing that this day that definitely call themselves Christian.
(58:16):
But the rebellion towards, see, they think they're okay with God.
But when there's rebellion, there's a strain on that relationship.
For sure.
When people know the word of God and based on emotion, choose to choose their emotion
(58:39):
over God's word and his laws.
It never ends well.
It doesn't.
And even these people that I do know currently that are in these situations, I can see that
in their personal life of what they never would have thought of doing before, they're
(59:01):
doing now.
And then it's scary to think of the repercussions that it's going to have on their children
and generations to come.
It's sort of like, could we imagine, like, we witness to someone on the street and they
go, oh, yeah, I used to go to church with my grandmother or whatever, for example.
(59:22):
And it's like, well, where did this actually decay?
What took place in order to stop the blessing of God flowing from one generation to the
next?
And so for me, one of the beautiful things about forgiveness is one, it's not my strength.
It's my choice, but it's not my ability.
(59:46):
And so this really is the goodness of God that I can choose to forgive.
I can choose to hold on to unforgiveness.
I'm going to receive two totally different outcomes.
The moment I chose to forgive, it wasn't an instant miracle, right?
(01:00:06):
It wasn't an instant thing.
But that was me choosing life, choosing a path to redeem everything that I'd let go
of.
Yeah.
So.
It's amazing what you did.
I know it was definitely difficult for you and all of other people, forgiveness is a
(01:00:27):
difficult road.
Yeah.
But as you said, that has to be done.
Has to be done.
At the end of the day, there are consequences for certain things.
And if this person has done something wrong to you, you need to forgive because ultimately
God has consequences for that situation, that person, whoever must have done wrong to you,
(01:00:53):
they will get their consequences.
But that's for God to decide.
Yeah.
Well, the thing is Matthew 18 says, if a brother sins against you and go discuss his faults
between the two of you, right?
Well, I totally ignored that.
I didn't want to do that.
I just wanted to choose unforgiveness.
You know what I mean?
(01:01:14):
Because that unforgiveness ends up becoming, you know, hatred.
It starts becoming revenge, envy.
It's like a root of so many things.
It is.
It really is.
So, a friend that you have, you can't forgive, you can't forgive, and you need to forgive.
You need to forgive because the devil is like, now, what do I do?
(01:01:37):
Exactly right.
I've got him and I've become a trophy in the devil's cabinet.
It's like a shame to him because he's like, you know, it's shameful because the devil
has nothing more he can do.
You forgive him.
Well, the funny thing is about this situation of unforgiveness in my life, was that if I
and it would have been done there and there. It is just really really stupid on my behalf.
(01:02:03):
Yeah well we thank God for wisdom. Where you are right now is God giving you that wisdom and that's what we need to do.
And it's just like sometimes it's difficult in that situation but as you say we always look at and another interesting thing you said is like Adam and Eve.
(01:02:27):
You know what they were looking at was just that short-lived happiness of eating that fruit.
Yeah a moment.
A moment and that's what we look at. We were like if we look at it like in that season we're like let's just forgive.
There's a whole other, it will change your entire life. And we don't see that. We always want to live in that moment and be like I hate you.
(01:02:50):
Well that's right.
I'm not going to forgive you. You have done this to me. You have done that to me.
You know there are great stories out there of Christian forgiving Christians.
I watched a long time ago a documentary about the genocide that happened in Rwanda.
Ah yeah.
And one of the journalists bought and it was not a Christian journalist bought this to a lady and a man together and they asked,
(01:03:18):
how are you able to forgive this man who killed your entire family, raped your entire family?
How are you able to forgive this person? And one answer he said is through God.
Absolutely.
And that was powerful. And he said I forgive you.
Well see that's probably one of the best examples because I feel like there's not a person listening and myself included that know that that is impossible to do in our own strength.
(01:03:53):
Exactly.
It is impossible. If someone did that to my family, I've got four guns to choose from at home.
So but that's that's the flesh.
Yeah.
Right. But yeah, through the grace of God, all things are possible.
Yeah.
Every weakness can be made strong through Christ Jesus.
(01:04:18):
Amen.
Well that was a very good conversation, wasn't it?
It went pretty deep.
Yeah. Yeah. I love this conversation.
Yeah, it's good.
And I think I think this is something new for our viewers.
You know, we we have some great conversation behind the cameras.
We always do. And we were like, if only if we could record this.
(01:04:40):
Yeah, we've done that so many times.
And I think today was such a great conversation for you guys.
And I feel like there's someone out there that needed to listen to this.
Yeah.
And this is going to be on the Internet forever, so you can always go back and listen to this.
But I think like forgiveness is important.
(01:05:01):
Love is important.
And it's just sometimes we can never understand how God works in certain things.
Yeah.
But it's just we are not meant to do that.
We're just not capable.
And we should just leave the work of God to God and just follow what he commands us to do.
(01:05:25):
That's right.
The reason why I chose these two things to talk about,
because there's a lot of different things that I could talk about in my life, good and bad.
I chose these two things was because there are a lot of things that we can do that affect us only.
Yeah.
When it comes to love and forgiveness, it's about others.
(01:05:48):
Yeah.
And I think there's a greater responsibility upon us as believers to make sure that,
sure if we're going to do something and it affects us, well that still has a negative effect, right?
But when we go against God's Word in these areas, it's affecting the body of Christ.
And that's a lot.
It has a greater consequence, I personally believe.
(01:06:11):
Yeah.
So look, if I can finish on this, viewers, I just want to say that whatever you're facing,
no matter how big the mountain is, God is able to remove that, give you a grace to overcome,
give you a strength to continue another day.
(01:06:36):
Matthew, sorry, Mark 11, 23, that whoever says unto this mountain, to be removed and cast in the sea
and does not doubt in their heart but believes in the things that they say is true, then God will do it for them.
So if I can encourage you that believe that God will do a miracle in your life,
whether it be addiction to drugs, alcohol, pornography, could be hatred, bitterness, envy,
(01:07:05):
whatever it is, you could have had a terrible relationship that's ended, whatever it is,
can you believe that God can restore you as a person and if it's relational that He can restore you
and the other person and restore that relationship or if that is not possible,
(01:07:27):
that at least you would be in right standing with God.
So I just want to encourage you with that.
God is able. God is able to work in your life.
We don't have the strength or the ability to truly love and forgive like God has commanded us,
but we have the ability to choose the grace of God over our lives which connects us to God.
(01:07:50):
Amen. And with that, thank you guys for joining us for another great conversation.
I really loved it because it's a season that I'm going through and this conversation actually builds me up.
It helps me and I'm sure it helps you guys too.
So please like, subscribe and follow for and encourage us, give us, email us, write to us,
(01:08:15):
message us because we want to hear how we're impacting, how this ministry is impacting you
because we want to do more of this and if you do like it, just message us if it's on the WhatsApp group
or by email or if you're from the church.
Comments.
Comments and if you're from the church, come up to us, talk to us.
We would love that.
But what we do is because God put all this in our heart to deliver to you guys
(01:08:39):
and I think that's very important because we're obedient to what He wants us to do.
And I think that's very important.
But thank you for another conversation with Gus and Rohan.
I don't think that's going to be our tagline yet because we've not come up with what we're going to call this segment.
But God will put that, the Holy Spirit will tell us what we should call it.
(01:09:01):
But for now, thank you for joining us and we'll be back for another episode.
(01:09:31):
Thank you for tuning in and until next time, may your faith journey be filled with grace, understanding and the unbeavering presence of God.
Stay tuned for more Real Talk every Friday on Real Talk Friday.
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