November 24, 2023 • 34 mins
Welcome to Episode 125 of the London History Podcast, where we continue to unravel the rich and complex tapestry of London's past.
Today, we delve into a chapter that's as intriguing as it is steeped in mystery and speculation — the intertwined stories of Elizabeth I and Robert Dudley, set against the imposing backdrop of the Tower of London.
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(00:02):
Hello and welcome to our London History Podcast where we share
our love of London. It's people, places and history.
It's designed for you to learn things about London that most
Londoners don't even know. I am your host Hazel Baker,
qualified London Tour guide, andCEO and Founder of London
(00:22):
guidedwalks.co.uk. Each episode is supported by
show notes, transcripts, photos and further reading, all to be
found on our website. Click on londonguidedwalk.co.uk
podcast and then select the episode that you fancy.
And if you enjoy what we do thenyou'll love our guided walks and
private tours that we offer throughout the year.
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So get that cup of tea, put yourfeet up, and enjoy.
The relationship between Robert Dudley and Elizabeth the 1st is
fascinating. Their alliance was characterized
by an intriguing blend of personal intimacy and political
alliance, a relationship that has captivated historians and
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enthusiasts alike. Dudley was not only a close
confidant and favorite of the Queen, but also a constant
presence in the political machinations of the time.
Connecting the historical intrigue to the imposing
presence of the Tower of London adds A compelling layer to our
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discussion on today's episode. The Tower, with its deep rooted
history and royal drama, imprisonment and execution,
stands as a sombre reminder of the era's turbulence.
It is a monument that has witnessed the zeniths and nadirs
of English royalty and nobility,including the figures that we're
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going to be talking about today.Joining me in the studio today
is Karina Apostu, who has an academic background rooted in
the University of Kent, where she pursued a Master of Arts in
medieval and early modern studies.
Karina has dedicated a significant portion of her
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scholarly endeavour to understanding the intricate
dynamics of court politics during the reign of Elizabeth
the 1st. Her dissertation offers a
compelling explanation of the demise of Robert Dudley, Earl of
Leicester, a nobleman of considerable influence and a
political figure within the Elizabethan court.
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For Karina, the Tower of London is not just a landmark of stone,
it's a Nexus of the historical tale.
She has unravelled silent witness to the secret whispers
and public proclamations that shaped the Elizabethan court,
and her studies have provided her with a unique lens through
which to view this iconic edifice.
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Today we'll be talking about their connection to one of the
most important and imposing landmarks in London, the Tower
of London. Welcome, Karina.
Thanks so much for having me, Hazel.
I'm really excited to talk aboutthis topic.
One of my favourites, Oh, you'retelling me.
I mean, Elizabeth the 1st is oneof my favourites anyway, so I
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don't really need an excuse to talk about her, but you can't
know. Everything, which is where you
come in. But I think maybe it's worth
starting off with maybe the lesser known of the two names
that we're talking about, and that is Robert Dudley.
So who is Robert Dudley? Right.
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Well, as you say, pretty much everyone knows who Elizabeth the
1st is, but sometimes when I mention Robert Dudley to people,
I kind of get blank stares in response.
So as you say, who is this man? Robert Dudley was the fifth son
of John and Jane Dudley, who were the Duke and Duchess of
Northumberland. So they were only up and coming
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Gentry when Robert was born in June of 1532, and he was only a
year older than Elizabeth herself.
As an adult he was a courtier politician and magnate in
Elizabeth's court, but alongsidethat he was also her long held
favorite companion and one of her oldest and dearest friends.
In fact, they were so close and openly affectionate with each
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other that they there were constant rumors claiming that
they were lovers. Robert even became one of the
strongest contenders for Elizabeth's hand in marriage
after his first wife, Amy, died in mysterious circumstances
since 1560. They never did marry, obviously,
but they remained close for the rest of their lives together.
Whether they were indeed lovers or not is beyond the scope of
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this podcast, but what is most important to know for today is
that they had been in each other's orbits since childhood.
We know this because Robert later told a French ambassador
in 1566 that he had known Elizabeth since she was 8 years
old, and she had told them that she never wanted to marry even
at that tender age. And how close were they in
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childhood? Do we know?
How close they were in childhoodis impossible to determine with
any certainty, but Elizabeth clearly felt comfortable enough
to divulge such a personal desire to him as children, and
the Dudley family had always been near to the center of the
English court. Robber's father was a talented
politician and soldier, and his mother once served Anne Boleyn
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as Lady in Waiting. He's got to have been a handsome
so and so as well. Yes, funnily enough, there is
actually quite quite a few ambassadors commented on that he
was a a beautiful man or a handsome man of some sort.
And it it it it truly is amusingto read.
Especially because half the timethey also couldn't stand him as
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a person, but they had to admit he was pretty handsome and I
feel working in the city like that now.
So he was handsome. He had obviously training from
the skills from his father and the the knowledge from his
mother working at court, because, you know, being a
favorite for so long for someonewho we often understand with
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Elizabeth is quite tempestuous in her, in her friendships
pulling and and pushing at the the of the cords of friendship.
He stays there with us, so he must have been able to find a
particular niche that no one else could.
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Yes, absolutely. And I think this kind of goes
back to it. It is related to what we're
going to speak about today and apart of it I think is the
longevity of the relationship, the the.
Depth of their bond, simply because for how long they've
known each other for how many things they went through which
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were very similar. I I think it it struck a very
deep bond between them and Elizabeth knew that she could
trust him, despite what everyoneelse was thinking and and and
Elizabeth. Really cherish the people she
knew she could trust. We kind of have this idea of the
tutors being, you know, like lopping off the heads of
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everybody they loved. That's more Henry the Eighth.
He's kind of the the axe. Happy 1.
Elizabeth was far more hesitant with with the axe.
Certainly, plenty of people wereexecuting her reign, too.
But she was deeply, deeply reluctant to turn on those who
were. Who were very close to her and
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who she was emotionally connected to and who she had
tested and had seen, right? Yeah, you're trustworthy.
And Robert Dudley was one of them.
I suppose being monarch in any age, you're going to be limited
by a very small number of peoplethat you can trust.
Your inner circle, as it were. Oh yeah, yeah.
And I suppose for Elizabeth as well, you know, bypassing the
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the life expectancy age and people popping off and that
circle getting smaller and smaller as well.
And if you think of times when she feels like she really has
been let down, if you think about Letisse Knowles, for
example, she really does flip one because it's a it's a
personal attack to her, absolutely.
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I fully agree with that, and I think a lot of people view that
whole scenario as kind of Elizabeth being monstrously
jealous, and certainly she was. A very possessive and jealous
woman. But what people kind of fail to
understand is that she had also been extremely close to the
Knollys family, to Latisse's entire family, and potentially
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to Latisse herself. And so when it comes out that
Latisse had married Robert Dudley, it must have felt like
an almighty stab at the back. And and obviously Elizabeth did
not handle it very well, but. I I I almost don't blame her.
I feel like I I, I I understand just from an emotional point of
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view why she reacted that way. Although certainly I think she
took it a little bit too far with how long she held that
grudge and how, you know, hostile.
She was the Latisse for the restof their lives.
But again, that's that's beyond the scope of this podcast.
But it's interesting you mentionthat because it brings to mind
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Elizabeth once said something like I have found treason in
trust, which is that she has hadher trust betrayed many, many
times. And so those who proved to be
loyal to her, she was very grateful for and even with
Robert when he did occasionally.Hurt her, either politically or
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personally. He always seemed to be able to
make it up to her. Or at the very least, she was
able to eventually forgive him because he proved his mettle in
other ways. Yeah, yeah.
And now our particular focus today is the the Tower of London
and the relationship with Robert, Dudley and Elizabeth
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First with the Tower of London specifically.
So how are Robert and Elizabeth related to the Tower of London?
Well, you know, as most people will know from their history
lessons, the Tower of London wasoriginally built by William the
Conqueror and acted in the beginning as sort of a secure
fortress and a symbol of royal power.
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So it wasn't. You know a prison from the get
go. With time though, it also became
a prison and some of the most high profile prisoners in
history have been held there. Well in English history of
course, including Elizabeth's I'll Fated mother and Boleyn.
Robert Dudley's family too also lost a family member to the
Tower already Robert's grandfather Edmund, who was
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executed at the very start of Henry the Eighth's reign.
Although today the Tower is dwarfed by surrounding high rise
buildings, in the Tudor age it would have excused upon towered
over all the other buildings except Saint Paul's Cathedral.
All new to fear. A trip to the tower as many had
passed through the centuries oldbuilding but few ever came out.
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It is seldom ever a place for bonding, although this might
have just been the case for Robert and Elizabeth.
Any childhood friendship they may have had surely might must
have been strained by the actions of Robert's father in
1553. John Dudley was at this point
the Duke of Northumberland, and after the Protestant King Edward
the 6th died childless, the kingchanged his success to exclude
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both his elder half sisters, Mary and Elizabeth.
Due to incompatibilities in religion and the question of
their illegitimacies, the personEdward chose instead to inherit
was Lady Jane Grey. Who just so happened to be
married to Lord Guilford Dudley,who was one of John Dudley's
sons and Robert's younger brother.
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Historians have debated back andforth whether Edward came to
this decision on his own, or whether he was egged on by
Northumberland chasing power andprestige for his family.
But whatever the reason, Northumberland got to work
immediately to place Jane Gray on the throne and bar Mary, and
by extension, Elizabeth from it.The coup ultimately failed
because Northumberland underestimated just how quickly
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Mary could mobilize and how popular she would be.
And crucially, the Privy Councilturned on Northumberland at the
last minute and declared for Mary instead.
So at this point Northumberland was doomed.
Scary prospect, isn't it really,when you know that someone so,
so close in your generations have ended their life in in in
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the Tower. And of course the the same with
Elizabeth as well, knowing the the the fate of her mother there
when she was so small as well. Yes, exactly that.
I think the the tower is something that would be very
strong in Elizabeth's even just her cultural memory, even she
had never seen it or or been in it before.
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That is a incredibly motive symbol for her, and I-1 wonders
if if she was. Friends, at this point with
Robert, what she must have been thinking this, you know, this or
whatever, somebody she feels close with is now effectively
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working against her and now likely will be put to death.
Because at that point in time, nobody thought that Dudley's
would get out of the Scott free.And how was how old was Dudley
at that time? Robert.
So he was about, he's 21 years old.
So again, he's only a year olderthan Elizabeth.
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So Elizabeth would have been 20.You know, just thinking back to
myself in my early 20s, I can't even imagine dealing with
something like this. No, absolutely.
So it was Northumberland himselftaken to the Tower.
Oh yes, he was. In fact, all of the deadly men
were for they had all helped their father in some way, shape
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or form in the coup. The Dudleys were a remarkably
close knit and fiercely loyal toeach other as far as Tudor noble
families went. And as I said, Robert was a
young man of 21 years old when he and his brothers were
arrested in 1553. All of them were taken to the
Tower of London and held in the Beecham Tower together.
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This is a tower that today stands directly to the left of
the Pillow Memorial, commemorating those who who were
executed in the tower, just so people can have a bit of a a
visualization of where the Beecham Tower is.
Their father, on the other hand,was held separately from their
sons, but I I do believe that the Dudley sons were were held
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together in the same cell, for lack of a better word.
All the Dudleys were condemned to death, but only
Northumberland was executed immediately after the coup and
Mary's secession. His execution was postponed just
long enough for him to take Catholic communion and renounce
his Protestant faith. Whether this was a genuine
change of heart or the actions of a desperate man trying to
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assuage his monarch and save hissons, we'll never really know
for sure. But Guildford and Jane continued
to be held in the tower, and at first Mary was of the mind to
pardon them. But all of that changed once
Elizabeth comes into the pictureagain.
In only a matter of months, Maryis dealing with a major
rebellion, and that is why it's rebellion.
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This rebellion aimed to depose the Catholic Mary, Mary
Elizabeth to Edward Courtenay, who was now another prisoner in
the Tower and put her on the throne instead.
This rebellion failed as well, and though there was no
definitive proof of her involvement beyond some
potentially suspicious correspondence.
Elizabeth was nevertheless implicated, and so she too was
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arrested and taken to the Tower of London.
The Dudley's at this point had been there for about half a
year. Wyatt's rebellion, unfortunately
spelled doom for Guilford and Lady Jane.
Jane's own father foolishly participated in the rebellion
after he was already pardoned once by the Queen, and it was
becoming too dangerous to have multiple figures of opposition
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alive, no matter how young they were.
So both Guilford and Jane were put to the axe as soon before
Elizabeth arrived at the tower, and one can only imagine how
terrified Elizabeth must have been, and her anxiety shows when
she later asks if Jane's scaffold had been taken down or
not. While she was imprisoned,
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Elizabeth endured intense interrogation.
But she held her own and no hardproof could be found to
implicate her. The case for Elizabeth grew even
stronger when Thomas Wyatt, who was the leader of Wyatt's
rebellion, cleared her of all knowledge or responsibility of
the rebellion upon the scaffold before his own execution.
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After a while, the security around Elizabeth's imprisonment
was slightly loosened and she was allowed to walk the gardens
of the Tower. It sounds so harrowing, doesn't
it? I mean for her to be arrested,
taken on both, and then go through Traitor's Gate into the
Tower of London at such a young age, knowing that your mother
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went into the Tower of London and never came out.
Yes, that that must have been the the mirroring of Elizabeth's
entrance into the tower with hermother is it's one of those
things that. You would think it is a bit
cliche if it didn't actually happen in real life.
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It's one of the things that if you saw it in the movie, you'd
think that's a bit on the nose. But no, it actually really did
happen in terms of Elizabeth arriving by Traders Gate, I
think. Recent research has actually
said that she arrived by Tower Tower Wharf, so not through the
gate itself, but rather docked alongside the tower and then
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went through essentially the main entrance.
I think in John Foxes Annals he mentions Traders Gate, but as
I'll mentioned a bit further. Fox's Annals tends to be a kind
of mix of history and propaganda, so you kind of put
in what every detail would make it a little more evocative.
But, but regardless, either way they both ended up in the same
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incredibly unenviable situation.Yeah, I mean, I suppose I've got
two things there. A if she's asking whether Jane's
scaffolding has been taken down,it means she didn't have a view
of it. And the other thing I've got in
my mind is that Elizabeth is actually kept in the apartments
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where her mother had been kept. Yes, indeed.
Yeah. And that is actually something
I'll touch upon in, in just a second.
But yes, in terms of Jane's scaffold.
I actually can't remember if shewould be able to see it or not,
but certainly she would know it was there.
And I believe she asked about ita bit later into her
imprisonment, when her anxiety was very high and effectively
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she was trying to gauge whether she was going to be executed or
not. And again, that's something that
I can't even imagine having thatconstantly in the back of my
head that you may or may not just lose your life, you know,
at the hands, or at least at therequest of your half sister.
Yeah, yeah, that's oh gosh. The the the relationship between
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Mary and Elizabeth this year is an episode on its own because it
is heartbreaking and frustratingand just all kinds of emotional
devastation with those 2. Elizabeth has known her all her
life, you know, and. Being, I suppose, the wrong
religion at that time, but she was so clever to try and walk
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that tightrope, to not annoy anybody too much on on either
side, just to to save her neck. It's terrifying really there.
Was there was a lot of quite quite a lot of bad blood between
the two sisters at this at that point they had a a fairly good
relationship with each other when they were younger.
Mary had I, I suppose, for lack of a better word, a lot of
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trauma when it came to Elizabeth's whole existence, to
be honest. So one can imagine, one can
understand where she's coming from, but it it it got very
messy on both sides as as the years progressed.
No, I agree. And did Elizabeth and Robert
meet while in the Tower? Ah well, this is where things
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get interesting. Wally's for me.
Elizabeth of Roberts relationship was so close and
injuring, despite occasional yetintense stormy periods, that
their contemporaries were at a loss to explain why their bond
was so strong their entire lives.
The historian William Camden took a shot at it and said.
Whether this proceeded from any virtue of his whereof he gave
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some shadow tokens, or from their common condition of
imprisonment under Queen Mary, or from his Nativity and the
hidden consent of the stars at the hour of their birth, and
thereby a most straight conjecture of their minds, a man
cannot easily say. So what Camden here suggests is
that their mutual imprisonment alone might have fostered a
connection between them, becausethe club of people who spend
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time in the tower and live to tale a tale was very small.
He might have been on to something here.
Over the centuries, a more romantic story has been spun,
one in which Robert and Elizabeth have a clandestine
meeting within the towers, imposing stone walls and where
they fall in love with each other.
I blame the Victorians. Yeah, oh.
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As an aside, most toot or miss are because of the Victorians,
but that's a whole nother kettleof fish.
Much as I would love for this tobe true because I am a hopeless
romantic at heart, there just isn't any evidence to suggest
that this ever happened. Nor would it have been terribly
plausible. Not to mention that at this
point the Dudley's were given leave for their for their wives
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to visit them, and Robert was still married to Amy Robsart.
And in the beginning at least. Their marriage appears to have
been a happy one, so you know when you visit the tower.
Today you can have the pleasure of attending one of the Yeoman
Tours which takes you around thegrounds of the tower while one
of the Yeoman of the Guard tellsyou stories.
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I would highly recommend these as they are incredibly
entertaining and informative. However, I'm afraid I do have to
correct them on one of their OFTrepeated points, that Elizabeth
was held in the bell tower. She was not.
The story of Elizabeth being held in the bell tower
originated, as I mentioned before, in John Fox's Annals,
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which was again part history, part propaganda.
Whether Fox came up with this story or not, no doubt he
thought it was. It, he thought it appealed to
the mythology of Elizabeth because who can resist a a real
life Princess locked in the tower story?
Well, exactly. Alas, for narrative
satisfaction, Elizabeth was actually held, as you rightly
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said, in the royal apartments inthe old palace, which were fit
for a queen but would have stillbeen psychologically damaging
for her as her own mother was also had held there before her
own execution. The Tutor Travel Guide has a
wonderful article about these apartments if listeners want
more info. By the way, So what does this
have to do with Robert? Well, if you ever visit the
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tower, you'll notice that the bell tower is conveniently close
to Beecham Tower, where Robert was held.
Tradition holds that they might have met on the walkway between
them, but as Elizabeth was held somewhere else entirely, this is
most unlikely. So yes, I think we've got, we've
got the Victorians to blame for a lot of these kind of stories,
these these love stories. And I don't think it's just
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physically possible, as you mentioned, where each of these
towers are, the amount of guardsthat would have been in between,
and even if it had been a secretmeeting, I mean that that could
have been a set up and it makes them both look even more guilty
surely. That's the thing.
Yeah, it it would be incredibly hard to pull something off like
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that. You would have to have some
intense bribery going on. And something tells me that we
would have have eventually foundout.
Even if they did manage to bribethe guard, which which has
happened, I'll touch on this, I'll touch on this later.
Or rather, who knows. It was bribery.
Again, I'll get to it in a second.
But even if they had managed to,I can almost guarantee you.
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We would know something. Something would have trickled
down to to the the, the current age for us to, you know, dig our
teeth into. So so did they.
Well, was there any way for themto communicate at all?
There might have been big capital.
M might, but let's examine this.Elizabeth was allowed to take
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occasional excursions out on thegrounds to get some fresh air
under guard, of course. Robert might have been able to
glimpse her if his windows weren't boarded up to prevent
this, but they certainly couldn't have communicated this
way. But there were other ways to get
covert communication from 1 prisoner to the other in the
Tower. At one point, the diplomat Simon
Renard wrote to the Holy Roman Empire that the Lieutenant of
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the Tower at the time, Saint SirJohn Bridges.
Was suspected of being a hereticand possibly sympathetic to
Elizabeth's plight. He was suspected of appointing a
certain gentleman named points to guard Elizabeth in order to
enable him to intrigue with her.This, however, didn't stop him
from doing his duty to Queen Mary since he helped quash the
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White rebellion. He he didn't incur so much
suspicion that Mary didn't trusthim to keep Elizabeth in the
Tower, but the desire to stay inElizabeth's good books might
have been there. And a later letter from Renard
also says that it is proved thatCourtney has sent a child of
five, the son and one of the soldiers in the tower, to
present his commendations to Elizabeth.
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Courtney, as previously mentioned, was a fellow prisoner
and arguably of higher priority at this point than the Dudleys,
whose executions seem to be permanently delayed.
If Courtney was able to send messages to Elizabeth, perhaps
aided by a sympathetic guard, then it's not beyond the realm
of possibility that Robert Dudley might have tried to do
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the same. Not to mention, stranger and
more extraordinary things have happened in the Tower during
Elizabeth's reign. Catherine Gray was imprisoned
for marrying Edward Seymour, theEarl of Hartford, without
permission. Catherine, who by the way was
Lady Jane's sister, was in the succession, so this added to the
severity of her transgression. Elizabeth ordered that Catherine
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and Edward be kept strictly apart from each other in the
Tower, but their guards were clearly sympathetic because not
only were they allowed to meet, they managed to conceive a child
whilst in the Tower together. Yeah, so high security, huh?
A Tudor prison is only as secureas its guards, and if the guards
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are able to be swayed, either with emotion or with money, much
can slip by. So I personally think that some
historians are a little too quick to dismiss it as a total
impossibility. The precedent is there.
Still, the fact remains that there is no surviving evidence
to suggest that Robert and Elizabeth successfully
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communicated or met whilst they were in the Tower together.
Nevertheless, I think Camden might have been correct when he
surmised that the Tower marked aturning point in their
relationship, one where they couldn't help but start to feel
drawn to each other. After all, not only were they.
In the tower at the same time, both experiencing that dread of
wondering which day might be their last.
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They both also lost a parent to the axe at that same location.
Elizabeth's mother and Robert's father rest together for
eternity in the Chapel of Saint Peter and Vincula.
That's a unique experience even for an age as bloody and
dangerous as a tutor age. No wonder they emotionally clung
to each other for so much afterwards, ultimately.
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We have remarkably few sources to tell us about how Elizabeth
and Robert interacted after theywere both released from the
Tower. There is the possibility that
Robert may have financially supported her, but the hard
evidence for this is scarce aside from two people talking
about it later in Elizabeth's reign.
But also as an aside, if you're financially helping the heir to
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the throne who the Queen does not like, one would imagine
you're probably keeping it on the down low and striking it
from your household accounts. So again, not impossible.
But no hard evidence. But what we do know is that by
the time Elizabeth became Queen in November 1558, the Count the
Count, the Faria, a Spanish ambassador in England, reported
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that Lord Robert was known to beone of the men who Elizabeth was
quote on very good terms with. One of her first appointments as
Queen was to make Robert her Master of the horse, and by
April 1559 people were already commenting on their intimacy.
It's a long road from the tower to the court.
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Yeah, I suppose it's it's it's like anything though.
It's like we're celebrities, youknow, if you're seen with
someone then there's there's thegossip straight away.
And especially if she's unmarried, they've got to,
they've got to gossip about something, haven't they?
And as you said, if he is handsome, then yeah.
So how did how did Elizabeth gether financing whilst Mary was
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queen? I mean, what was going on?
Where was she getting it from? Well, generally she was.
She was given a settlement by her father, so that's where her
money comes from. And also as a a noble woman and
a royalty. In fact, she is a landowner, one
of the biggest land owners in inEngland.
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And in fact, before Mary was queen, she was the second
biggest, I believe, landowner inEngland after her sister.
So the revenue from that land would essentially come into her
own pocket. But I do remember reading, if
I'm not mistaken, that she was kind of struggling with money at
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certain points. It was difficult for her to keep
on top of her finances, so any, any and all support would have
been quite welcome. And again, even though it
doesn't show up in. Robert's household accounts or
and we have no paper trail for this, if he did financially
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support her in some way, the traditional thought is that he
sold land because that's what one of the later sources says
then that would kind of explain why she was already on such good
terms with him at the beginning of her reign.
Another reason. Yeah, or another reason why she
felt like she could trust him. Interesting to note that the
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other source mentions only mentions that he sold some
possessions. So one of them says land, the
other one says possessions. And by the way, these sources
are just essentially ambassadorstalking to people from England.
So it is a little bit of hearsay, but one of them
mentions that Elizabeth herself supposedly said this.
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So it's all kind of, you know, gossip column.
Yeah, yeah, it could be gossip. It could be true.
Who knows? Regardless, it was something
that was known or talked about at the time.
So who knows really. So we mentioned the towers and
you mentioned about the the Yeoman's tour and the little
(32:11):
correction that they need to addinto their script.
But for those who are heading tothe Tower, London, I must admit
I've got my HRP card, so I'm going to go back again to have a
little look. But can you visit where Dudley
and Elizabeth the First were held as prisoners?
The real rooms? Partially.
(32:35):
Obviously the Tower of London isopen for visitors and is one of
my absolute favorite historical locations in London, so I would
highly recommend it to anyone. Whether you're a Londoner who
has never gone around to it or avisitor to the city, it is well
worth the price of the entrance ticket.
You are able to enter Beecham Tower and climb up the very
narrow, very winding staircase to see where the Dudley brothers
(32:59):
were held there. You can even see the carvings in
the stone walls where the board young.
And whiled away the hours. Robert just put his initials and
some oak leaves near the window facing Tower Green.
But on the other side, his eldest brother John, the Earl of
Warwick, created a very intricate engraving with their
family emblem, and different flowers and leaves symbolize
(33:21):
each brother. He really misses calling as a
Carver if you see it, because it's stunning and I will try and
share photos that I've taken over the years so to to share
with those who can't visit at the moment.
Absolutely would recommend, but unfortunately you cannot visit
where Elizabeth was held as those buildings which I believe
(33:43):
were built by her father for hermother are no longer extant as
as far as I know. Even if you wanted to visit the
bell Tower of Legend, which alsoheld other high profile
prisoners like Thomas Moore, it's currently not available to
view. Still, it's wonderful to see the
Dudley carvings and to imagine what Robert might have felt
(34:03):
losing his father and his brother and then hearing that
his old friend was imprisoned inthe same tower.
Yeah, totally. As I said, it's a it's a
brilliant place to explore and we've got Episode 4 all about
the crown jewels. Obviously nothing from the Tudor
times there, sadly, thanks to Oliver Cromwell, but it's still
(34:23):
in the same place. And all that's left for me to
say Karina, is thank you so much.
Thank you for your knowledge andalso your energy.
I absolutely loved it. Oh well, again, thank you so
very much for having me on. It's been such a pleasure being
here, this and a thrill because this is my first podcast.
(34:45):
Thanks for joining us this week.Until next time.
Hello and welcome to our London History Podcast where we share
our love of London. It's people, places and history.
It's designed for you to learn things about London that most
Londoners don't even know. I am your host Hazel Baker,
qualified London Tour guide, andCEO and Founder of London
(00:22):
guidedwalks.co.uk. Each episode is supported by
show notes, transcripts, photos and further reading, all to be
found on our website. Click on londonguidedwalk.co.uk
podcast and then select the episode that you fancy.
And if you enjoy what we do thenyou'll love our guided walks and
private tours that we offer throughout the year.
(00:46):
So get that cup of tea, put yourfeet up, and enjoy.
The relationship between Robert Dudley and Elizabeth the 1st is
fascinating. Their alliance was characterized
by an intriguing blend of personal intimacy and political
alliance, a relationship that has captivated historians and
(01:08):
enthusiasts alike. Dudley was not only a close
confidant and favorite of the Queen, but also a constant
presence in the political machinations of the time.
Connecting the historical intrigue to the imposing
presence of the Tower of London adds A compelling layer to our
(01:29):
discussion on today's episode. The Tower, with its deep rooted
history and royal drama, imprisonment and execution,
stands as a sombre reminder of the era's turbulence.
It is a monument that has witnessed the zeniths and nadirs
of English royalty and nobility,including the figures that we're
(01:51):
going to be talking about today.Joining me in the studio today
is Karina Apostu, who has an academic background rooted in
the University of Kent, where she pursued a Master of Arts in
medieval and early modern studies.
Karina has dedicated a significant portion of her
(02:11):
scholarly endeavour to understanding the intricate
dynamics of court politics during the reign of Elizabeth
the 1st. Her dissertation offers a
compelling explanation of the demise of Robert Dudley, Earl of
Leicester, a nobleman of considerable influence and a
political figure within the Elizabethan court.
(02:34):
For Karina, the Tower of London is not just a landmark of stone,
it's a Nexus of the historical tale.
She has unravelled silent witness to the secret whispers
and public proclamations that shaped the Elizabethan court,
and her studies have provided her with a unique lens through
which to view this iconic edifice.
(02:57):
Today we'll be talking about their connection to one of the
most important and imposing landmarks in London, the Tower
of London. Welcome, Karina.
Thanks so much for having me, Hazel.
I'm really excited to talk aboutthis topic.
One of my favourites, Oh, you'retelling me.
I mean, Elizabeth the 1st is oneof my favourites anyway, so I
(03:19):
don't really need an excuse to talk about her, but you can't
know. Everything, which is where you
come in. But I think maybe it's worth
starting off with maybe the lesser known of the two names
that we're talking about, and that is Robert Dudley.
So who is Robert Dudley? Right.
(03:42):
Well, as you say, pretty much everyone knows who Elizabeth the
1st is, but sometimes when I mention Robert Dudley to people,
I kind of get blank stares in response.
So as you say, who is this man? Robert Dudley was the fifth son
of John and Jane Dudley, who were the Duke and Duchess of
Northumberland. So they were only up and coming
(04:02):
Gentry when Robert was born in June of 1532, and he was only a
year older than Elizabeth herself.
As an adult he was a courtier politician and magnate in
Elizabeth's court, but alongsidethat he was also her long held
favorite companion and one of her oldest and dearest friends.
In fact, they were so close and openly affectionate with each
(04:23):
other that they there were constant rumors claiming that
they were lovers. Robert even became one of the
strongest contenders for Elizabeth's hand in marriage
after his first wife, Amy, died in mysterious circumstances
since 1560. They never did marry, obviously,
but they remained close for the rest of their lives together.
Whether they were indeed lovers or not is beyond the scope of
(04:44):
this podcast, but what is most important to know for today is
that they had been in each other's orbits since childhood.
We know this because Robert later told a French ambassador
in 1566 that he had known Elizabeth since she was 8 years
old, and she had told them that she never wanted to marry even
at that tender age. And how close were they in
(05:04):
childhood? Do we know?
How close they were in childhoodis impossible to determine with
any certainty, but Elizabeth clearly felt comfortable enough
to divulge such a personal desire to him as children, and
the Dudley family had always been near to the center of the
English court. Robber's father was a talented
politician and soldier, and his mother once served Anne Boleyn
(05:27):
as Lady in Waiting. He's got to have been a handsome
so and so as well. Yes, funnily enough, there is
actually quite quite a few ambassadors commented on that he
was a a beautiful man or a handsome man of some sort.
And it it it it truly is amusingto read.
Especially because half the timethey also couldn't stand him as
(05:50):
a person, but they had to admit he was pretty handsome and I
feel working in the city like that now.
So he was handsome. He had obviously training from
the skills from his father and the the knowledge from his
mother working at court, because, you know, being a
favorite for so long for someonewho we often understand with
(06:13):
Elizabeth is quite tempestuous in her, in her friendships
pulling and and pushing at the the of the cords of friendship.
He stays there with us, so he must have been able to find a
particular niche that no one else could.
(06:35):
Yes, absolutely. And I think this kind of goes
back to it. It is related to what we're
going to speak about today and apart of it I think is the
longevity of the relationship, the the.
Depth of their bond, simply because for how long they've
known each other for how many things they went through which
(06:56):
were very similar. I I think it it struck a very
deep bond between them and Elizabeth knew that she could
trust him, despite what everyoneelse was thinking and and and
Elizabeth. Really cherish the people she
knew she could trust. We kind of have this idea of the
tutors being, you know, like lopping off the heads of
(07:18):
everybody they loved. That's more Henry the Eighth.
He's kind of the the axe. Happy 1.
Elizabeth was far more hesitant with with the axe.
Certainly, plenty of people wereexecuting her reign, too.
But she was deeply, deeply reluctant to turn on those who
were. Who were very close to her and
(07:39):
who she was emotionally connected to and who she had
tested and had seen, right? Yeah, you're trustworthy.
And Robert Dudley was one of them.
I suppose being monarch in any age, you're going to be limited
by a very small number of peoplethat you can trust.
Your inner circle, as it were. Oh yeah, yeah.
And I suppose for Elizabeth as well, you know, bypassing the
(08:02):
the life expectancy age and people popping off and that
circle getting smaller and smaller as well.
And if you think of times when she feels like she really has
been let down, if you think about Letisse Knowles, for
example, she really does flip one because it's a it's a
personal attack to her, absolutely.
(08:25):
I fully agree with that, and I think a lot of people view that
whole scenario as kind of Elizabeth being monstrously
jealous, and certainly she was. A very possessive and jealous
woman. But what people kind of fail to
understand is that she had also been extremely close to the
Knollys family, to Latisse's entire family, and potentially
(08:47):
to Latisse herself. And so when it comes out that
Latisse had married Robert Dudley, it must have felt like
an almighty stab at the back. And and obviously Elizabeth did
not handle it very well, but. I I I almost don't blame her.
I feel like I I, I I understand just from an emotional point of
(09:08):
view why she reacted that way. Although certainly I think she
took it a little bit too far with how long she held that
grudge and how, you know, hostile.
She was the Latisse for the restof their lives.
But again, that's that's beyond the scope of this podcast.
But it's interesting you mentionthat because it brings to mind
(09:29):
Elizabeth once said something like I have found treason in
trust, which is that she has hadher trust betrayed many, many
times. And so those who proved to be
loyal to her, she was very grateful for and even with
Robert when he did occasionally.Hurt her, either politically or
(09:52):
personally. He always seemed to be able to
make it up to her. Or at the very least, she was
able to eventually forgive him because he proved his mettle in
other ways. Yeah, yeah.
And now our particular focus today is the the Tower of London
and the relationship with Robert, Dudley and Elizabeth
(10:13):
First with the Tower of London specifically.
So how are Robert and Elizabeth related to the Tower of London?
Well, you know, as most people will know from their history
lessons, the Tower of London wasoriginally built by William the
Conqueror and acted in the beginning as sort of a secure
fortress and a symbol of royal power.
(10:33):
So it wasn't. You know a prison from the get
go. With time though, it also became
a prison and some of the most high profile prisoners in
history have been held there. Well in English history of
course, including Elizabeth's I'll Fated mother and Boleyn.
Robert Dudley's family too also lost a family member to the
Tower already Robert's grandfather Edmund, who was
(10:56):
executed at the very start of Henry the Eighth's reign.
Although today the Tower is dwarfed by surrounding high rise
buildings, in the Tudor age it would have excused upon towered
over all the other buildings except Saint Paul's Cathedral.
All new to fear. A trip to the tower as many had
passed through the centuries oldbuilding but few ever came out.
(11:19):
It is seldom ever a place for bonding, although this might
have just been the case for Robert and Elizabeth.
Any childhood friendship they may have had surely might must
have been strained by the actions of Robert's father in
1553. John Dudley was at this point
the Duke of Northumberland, and after the Protestant King Edward
the 6th died childless, the kingchanged his success to exclude
(11:42):
both his elder half sisters, Mary and Elizabeth.
Due to incompatibilities in religion and the question of
their illegitimacies, the personEdward chose instead to inherit
was Lady Jane Grey. Who just so happened to be
married to Lord Guilford Dudley,who was one of John Dudley's
sons and Robert's younger brother.
(12:02):
Historians have debated back andforth whether Edward came to
this decision on his own, or whether he was egged on by
Northumberland chasing power andprestige for his family.
But whatever the reason, Northumberland got to work
immediately to place Jane Gray on the throne and bar Mary, and
by extension, Elizabeth from it.The coup ultimately failed
because Northumberland underestimated just how quickly
(12:23):
Mary could mobilize and how popular she would be.
And crucially, the Privy Councilturned on Northumberland at the
last minute and declared for Mary instead.
So at this point Northumberland was doomed.
Scary prospect, isn't it really,when you know that someone so,
so close in your generations have ended their life in in in
(12:44):
the Tower. And of course the the same with
Elizabeth as well, knowing the the the fate of her mother there
when she was so small as well. Yes, exactly that.
I think the the tower is something that would be very
strong in Elizabeth's even just her cultural memory, even she
had never seen it or or been in it before.
(13:07):
That is a incredibly motive symbol for her, and I-1 wonders
if if she was. Friends, at this point with
Robert, what she must have been thinking this, you know, this or
whatever, somebody she feels close with is now effectively
(13:28):
working against her and now likely will be put to death.
Because at that point in time, nobody thought that Dudley's
would get out of the Scott free.And how was how old was Dudley
at that time? Robert.
So he was about, he's 21 years old.
So again, he's only a year olderthan Elizabeth.
(13:48):
So Elizabeth would have been 20.You know, just thinking back to
myself in my early 20s, I can't even imagine dealing with
something like this. No, absolutely.
So it was Northumberland himselftaken to the Tower.
Oh yes, he was. In fact, all of the deadly men
were for they had all helped their father in some way, shape
(14:11):
or form in the coup. The Dudleys were a remarkably
close knit and fiercely loyal toeach other as far as Tudor noble
families went. And as I said, Robert was a
young man of 21 years old when he and his brothers were
arrested in 1553. All of them were taken to the
Tower of London and held in the Beecham Tower together.
(14:32):
This is a tower that today stands directly to the left of
the Pillow Memorial, commemorating those who who were
executed in the tower, just so people can have a bit of a a
visualization of where the Beecham Tower is.
Their father, on the other hand,was held separately from their
sons, but I I do believe that the Dudley sons were were held
(14:54):
together in the same cell, for lack of a better word.
All the Dudleys were condemned to death, but only
Northumberland was executed immediately after the coup and
Mary's secession. His execution was postponed just
long enough for him to take Catholic communion and renounce
his Protestant faith. Whether this was a genuine
change of heart or the actions of a desperate man trying to
(15:17):
assuage his monarch and save hissons, we'll never really know
for sure. But Guildford and Jane continued
to be held in the tower, and at first Mary was of the mind to
pardon them. But all of that changed once
Elizabeth comes into the pictureagain.
In only a matter of months, Maryis dealing with a major
rebellion, and that is why it's rebellion.
(15:39):
This rebellion aimed to depose the Catholic Mary, Mary
Elizabeth to Edward Courtenay, who was now another prisoner in
the Tower and put her on the throne instead.
This rebellion failed as well, and though there was no
definitive proof of her involvement beyond some
potentially suspicious correspondence.
Elizabeth was nevertheless implicated, and so she too was
(16:01):
arrested and taken to the Tower of London.
The Dudley's at this point had been there for about half a
year. Wyatt's rebellion, unfortunately
spelled doom for Guilford and Lady Jane.
Jane's own father foolishly participated in the rebellion
after he was already pardoned once by the Queen, and it was
becoming too dangerous to have multiple figures of opposition
(16:23):
alive, no matter how young they were.
So both Guilford and Jane were put to the axe as soon before
Elizabeth arrived at the tower, and one can only imagine how
terrified Elizabeth must have been, and her anxiety shows when
she later asks if Jane's scaffold had been taken down or
not. While she was imprisoned,
(16:43):
Elizabeth endured intense interrogation.
But she held her own and no hardproof could be found to
implicate her. The case for Elizabeth grew even
stronger when Thomas Wyatt, who was the leader of Wyatt's
rebellion, cleared her of all knowledge or responsibility of
the rebellion upon the scaffold before his own execution.
(17:04):
After a while, the security around Elizabeth's imprisonment
was slightly loosened and she was allowed to walk the gardens
of the Tower. It sounds so harrowing, doesn't
it? I mean for her to be arrested,
taken on both, and then go through Traitor's Gate into the
Tower of London at such a young age, knowing that your mother
(17:26):
went into the Tower of London and never came out.
Yes, that that must have been the the mirroring of Elizabeth's
entrance into the tower with hermother is it's one of those
things that. You would think it is a bit
cliche if it didn't actually happen in real life.
(17:50):
It's one of the things that if you saw it in the movie, you'd
think that's a bit on the nose. But no, it actually really did
happen in terms of Elizabeth arriving by Traders Gate, I
think. Recent research has actually
said that she arrived by Tower Tower Wharf, so not through the
gate itself, but rather docked alongside the tower and then
(18:12):
went through essentially the main entrance.
I think in John Foxes Annals he mentions Traders Gate, but as
I'll mentioned a bit further. Fox's Annals tends to be a kind
of mix of history and propaganda, so you kind of put
in what every detail would make it a little more evocative.
But, but regardless, either way they both ended up in the same
(18:36):
incredibly unenviable situation.Yeah, I mean, I suppose I've got
two things there. A if she's asking whether Jane's
scaffolding has been taken down,it means she didn't have a view
of it. And the other thing I've got in
my mind is that Elizabeth is actually kept in the apartments
(18:57):
where her mother had been kept. Yes, indeed.
Yeah. And that is actually something
I'll touch upon in, in just a second.
But yes, in terms of Jane's scaffold.
I actually can't remember if shewould be able to see it or not,
but certainly she would know it was there.
And I believe she asked about ita bit later into her
imprisonment, when her anxiety was very high and effectively
(19:20):
she was trying to gauge whether she was going to be executed or
not. And again, that's something that
I can't even imagine having thatconstantly in the back of my
head that you may or may not just lose your life, you know,
at the hands, or at least at therequest of your half sister.
Yeah, yeah, that's oh gosh. The the the relationship between
(19:44):
Mary and Elizabeth this year is an episode on its own because it
is heartbreaking and frustratingand just all kinds of emotional
devastation with those 2. Elizabeth has known her all her
life, you know, and. Being, I suppose, the wrong
religion at that time, but she was so clever to try and walk
(20:07):
that tightrope, to not annoy anybody too much on on either
side, just to to save her neck. It's terrifying really there.
Was there was a lot of quite quite a lot of bad blood between
the two sisters at this at that point they had a a fairly good
relationship with each other when they were younger.
Mary had I, I suppose, for lack of a better word, a lot of
(20:28):
trauma when it came to Elizabeth's whole existence, to
be honest. So one can imagine, one can
understand where she's coming from, but it it it got very
messy on both sides as as the years progressed.
No, I agree. And did Elizabeth and Robert
meet while in the Tower? Ah well, this is where things
(20:50):
get interesting. Wally's for me.
Elizabeth of Roberts relationship was so close and
injuring, despite occasional yetintense stormy periods, that
their contemporaries were at a loss to explain why their bond
was so strong their entire lives.
The historian William Camden took a shot at it and said.
Whether this proceeded from any virtue of his whereof he gave
(21:14):
some shadow tokens, or from their common condition of
imprisonment under Queen Mary, or from his Nativity and the
hidden consent of the stars at the hour of their birth, and
thereby a most straight conjecture of their minds, a man
cannot easily say. So what Camden here suggests is
that their mutual imprisonment alone might have fostered a
connection between them, becausethe club of people who spend
(21:37):
time in the tower and live to tale a tale was very small.
He might have been on to something here.
Over the centuries, a more romantic story has been spun,
one in which Robert and Elizabeth have a clandestine
meeting within the towers, imposing stone walls and where
they fall in love with each other.
I blame the Victorians. Yeah, oh.
(21:58):
As an aside, most toot or miss are because of the Victorians,
but that's a whole nother kettleof fish.
Much as I would love for this tobe true because I am a hopeless
romantic at heart, there just isn't any evidence to suggest
that this ever happened. Nor would it have been terribly
plausible. Not to mention that at this
point the Dudley's were given leave for their for their wives
(22:21):
to visit them, and Robert was still married to Amy Robsart.
And in the beginning at least. Their marriage appears to have
been a happy one, so you know when you visit the tower.
Today you can have the pleasure of attending one of the Yeoman
Tours which takes you around thegrounds of the tower while one
of the Yeoman of the Guard tellsyou stories.
(22:43):
I would highly recommend these as they are incredibly
entertaining and informative. However, I'm afraid I do have to
correct them on one of their OFTrepeated points, that Elizabeth
was held in the bell tower. She was not.
The story of Elizabeth being held in the bell tower
originated, as I mentioned before, in John Fox's Annals,
(23:03):
which was again part history, part propaganda.
Whether Fox came up with this story or not, no doubt he
thought it was. It, he thought it appealed to
the mythology of Elizabeth because who can resist a a real
life Princess locked in the tower story?
Well, exactly. Alas, for narrative
satisfaction, Elizabeth was actually held, as you rightly
(23:26):
said, in the royal apartments inthe old palace, which were fit
for a queen but would have stillbeen psychologically damaging
for her as her own mother was also had held there before her
own execution. The Tutor Travel Guide has a
wonderful article about these apartments if listeners want
more info. By the way, So what does this
have to do with Robert? Well, if you ever visit the
(23:49):
tower, you'll notice that the bell tower is conveniently close
to Beecham Tower, where Robert was held.
Tradition holds that they might have met on the walkway between
them, but as Elizabeth was held somewhere else entirely, this is
most unlikely. So yes, I think we've got, we've
got the Victorians to blame for a lot of these kind of stories,
these these love stories. And I don't think it's just
(24:12):
physically possible, as you mentioned, where each of these
towers are, the amount of guardsthat would have been in between,
and even if it had been a secretmeeting, I mean that that could
have been a set up and it makes them both look even more guilty
surely. That's the thing.
Yeah, it it would be incredibly hard to pull something off like
(24:34):
that. You would have to have some
intense bribery going on. And something tells me that we
would have have eventually foundout.
Even if they did manage to bribethe guard, which which has
happened, I'll touch on this, I'll touch on this later.
Or rather, who knows. It was bribery.
Again, I'll get to it in a second.
But even if they had managed to,I can almost guarantee you.
(24:57):
We would know something. Something would have trickled
down to to the the, the current age for us to, you know, dig our
teeth into. So so did they.
Well, was there any way for themto communicate at all?
There might have been big capital.
M might, but let's examine this.Elizabeth was allowed to take
(25:21):
occasional excursions out on thegrounds to get some fresh air
under guard, of course. Robert might have been able to
glimpse her if his windows weren't boarded up to prevent
this, but they certainly couldn't have communicated this
way. But there were other ways to get
covert communication from 1 prisoner to the other in the
Tower. At one point, the diplomat Simon
Renard wrote to the Holy Roman Empire that the Lieutenant of
(25:42):
the Tower at the time, Saint SirJohn Bridges.
Was suspected of being a hereticand possibly sympathetic to
Elizabeth's plight. He was suspected of appointing a
certain gentleman named points to guard Elizabeth in order to
enable him to intrigue with her.This, however, didn't stop him
from doing his duty to Queen Mary since he helped quash the
(26:03):
White rebellion. He he didn't incur so much
suspicion that Mary didn't trusthim to keep Elizabeth in the
Tower, but the desire to stay inElizabeth's good books might
have been there. And a later letter from Renard
also says that it is proved thatCourtney has sent a child of
five, the son and one of the soldiers in the tower, to
present his commendations to Elizabeth.
(26:26):
Courtney, as previously mentioned, was a fellow prisoner
and arguably of higher priority at this point than the Dudleys,
whose executions seem to be permanently delayed.
If Courtney was able to send messages to Elizabeth, perhaps
aided by a sympathetic guard, then it's not beyond the realm
of possibility that Robert Dudley might have tried to do
(26:46):
the same. Not to mention, stranger and
more extraordinary things have happened in the Tower during
Elizabeth's reign. Catherine Gray was imprisoned
for marrying Edward Seymour, theEarl of Hartford, without
permission. Catherine, who by the way was
Lady Jane's sister, was in the succession, so this added to the
severity of her transgression. Elizabeth ordered that Catherine
(27:08):
and Edward be kept strictly apart from each other in the
Tower, but their guards were clearly sympathetic because not
only were they allowed to meet, they managed to conceive a child
whilst in the Tower together. Yeah, so high security, huh?
A Tudor prison is only as secureas its guards, and if the guards
(27:30):
are able to be swayed, either with emotion or with money, much
can slip by. So I personally think that some
historians are a little too quick to dismiss it as a total
impossibility. The precedent is there.
Still, the fact remains that there is no surviving evidence
to suggest that Robert and Elizabeth successfully
(27:50):
communicated or met whilst they were in the Tower together.
Nevertheless, I think Camden might have been correct when he
surmised that the Tower marked aturning point in their
relationship, one where they couldn't help but start to feel
drawn to each other. After all, not only were they.
In the tower at the same time, both experiencing that dread of
wondering which day might be their last.
(28:11):
They both also lost a parent to the axe at that same location.
Elizabeth's mother and Robert's father rest together for
eternity in the Chapel of Saint Peter and Vincula.
That's a unique experience even for an age as bloody and
dangerous as a tutor age. No wonder they emotionally clung
to each other for so much afterwards, ultimately.
(28:31):
We have remarkably few sources to tell us about how Elizabeth
and Robert interacted after theywere both released from the
Tower. There is the possibility that
Robert may have financially supported her, but the hard
evidence for this is scarce aside from two people talking
about it later in Elizabeth's reign.
But also as an aside, if you're financially helping the heir to
(28:53):
the throne who the Queen does not like, one would imagine
you're probably keeping it on the down low and striking it
from your household accounts. So again, not impossible.
But no hard evidence. But what we do know is that by
the time Elizabeth became Queen in November 1558, the Count the
Count, the Faria, a Spanish ambassador in England, reported
(29:14):
that Lord Robert was known to beone of the men who Elizabeth was
quote on very good terms with. One of her first appointments as
Queen was to make Robert her Master of the horse, and by
April 1559 people were already commenting on their intimacy.
It's a long road from the tower to the court.
(29:34):
Yeah, I suppose it's it's it's like anything though.
It's like we're celebrities, youknow, if you're seen with
someone then there's there's thegossip straight away.
And especially if she's unmarried, they've got to,
they've got to gossip about something, haven't they?
And as you said, if he is handsome, then yeah.
So how did how did Elizabeth gether financing whilst Mary was
(30:00):
queen? I mean, what was going on?
Where was she getting it from? Well, generally she was.
She was given a settlement by her father, so that's where her
money comes from. And also as a a noble woman and
a royalty. In fact, she is a landowner, one
of the biggest land owners in inEngland.
(30:20):
And in fact, before Mary was queen, she was the second
biggest, I believe, landowner inEngland after her sister.
So the revenue from that land would essentially come into her
own pocket. But I do remember reading, if
I'm not mistaken, that she was kind of struggling with money at
(30:42):
certain points. It was difficult for her to keep
on top of her finances, so any, any and all support would have
been quite welcome. And again, even though it
doesn't show up in. Robert's household accounts or
and we have no paper trail for this, if he did financially
(31:03):
support her in some way, the traditional thought is that he
sold land because that's what one of the later sources says
then that would kind of explain why she was already on such good
terms with him at the beginning of her reign.
Another reason. Yeah, or another reason why she
felt like she could trust him. Interesting to note that the
(31:27):
other source mentions only mentions that he sold some
possessions. So one of them says land, the
other one says possessions. And by the way, these sources
are just essentially ambassadorstalking to people from England.
So it is a little bit of hearsay, but one of them
mentions that Elizabeth herself supposedly said this.
(31:48):
So it's all kind of, you know, gossip column.
Yeah, yeah, it could be gossip. It could be true.
Who knows? Regardless, it was something
that was known or talked about at the time.
So who knows really. So we mentioned the towers and
you mentioned about the the Yeoman's tour and the little
(32:11):
correction that they need to addinto their script.
But for those who are heading tothe Tower, London, I must admit
I've got my HRP card, so I'm going to go back again to have a
little look. But can you visit where Dudley
and Elizabeth the First were held as prisoners?
The real rooms? Partially.
(32:35):
Obviously the Tower of London isopen for visitors and is one of
my absolute favorite historical locations in London, so I would
highly recommend it to anyone. Whether you're a Londoner who
has never gone around to it or avisitor to the city, it is well
worth the price of the entrance ticket.
You are able to enter Beecham Tower and climb up the very
narrow, very winding staircase to see where the Dudley brothers
(32:59):
were held there. You can even see the carvings in
the stone walls where the board young.
And whiled away the hours. Robert just put his initials and
some oak leaves near the window facing Tower Green.
But on the other side, his eldest brother John, the Earl of
Warwick, created a very intricate engraving with their
family emblem, and different flowers and leaves symbolize
(33:21):
each brother. He really misses calling as a
Carver if you see it, because it's stunning and I will try and
share photos that I've taken over the years so to to share
with those who can't visit at the moment.
Absolutely would recommend, but unfortunately you cannot visit
where Elizabeth was held as those buildings which I believe
(33:43):
were built by her father for hermother are no longer extant as
as far as I know. Even if you wanted to visit the
bell Tower of Legend, which alsoheld other high profile
prisoners like Thomas Moore, it's currently not available to
view. Still, it's wonderful to see the
Dudley carvings and to imagine what Robert might have felt
(34:03):
losing his father and his brother and then hearing that
his old friend was imprisoned inthe same tower.
Yeah, totally. As I said, it's a it's a
brilliant place to explore and we've got Episode 4 all about
the crown jewels. Obviously nothing from the Tudor
times there, sadly, thanks to Oliver Cromwell, but it's still
(34:23):
in the same place. And all that's left for me to
say Karina, is thank you so much.
Thank you for your knowledge andalso your energy.
I absolutely loved it. Oh well, again, thank you so
very much for having me on. It's been such a pleasure being
here, this and a thrill because this is my first podcast.
(34:45):
Thanks for joining us this week.Until next time.
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