October 31, 2025 • 62 mins
In this conversation, Laura shares her journey of living with spina bifida. She discusses the challenges she faced growing up with disability and the innovative therapies her family sought out to help her thrive. She shares her experiences trying to fit in at school, the isolation she felt, and how she finally gave up her mission to make other people comfortable with her limitations. Laura also reflects on her discovery of the Mind Body Solutions (MBS) program and how yoga transformed her relationship with her body, leading to a deeper understanding of self-acceptance and peace.
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(00:06):
So making, making it my mission for other people to be
comfortable with, this is a mission that I have given up.
I, I handed in my notice. I was like, all right, let's.
I was like, I'm quitting this job.
(00:26):
Hello and welcome to Looking Up From Here, a podcast adventure
where Angelique, Laura and I explore the all-encompassing
experience of living with a disability.
In this podcast, we delve into how disability influences our
interactions with the world around us and how the world
responds to us. Along the way, we share our
(00:48):
personal journeys and open up about how our lives and
identities have been shaped by our reliance on wheelchairs for
mobility. Thank you for joining us and our
guests for these heartfelt and often humorous conversations
where we hope you'll gain a deeper understanding of what it
takes to navigate life on wheelsand maybe learn something about
(01:09):
just living your best life, no matter what challenges you're
facing. Hi, I'm your host, Samantha
Geary. I was diagnosed with multiple
sclerosis in my 20s and have lived with its ups and downs for
(01:29):
over 30 years, including many levels of disability, and I've
used a wheelchair full time since 2020.
Hi, I'm your host Laura Halsey. I live in West Quirk in Ireland.
I was born with a condition called Spina Bifta and I have
been in a wheelchair for about 30 years.
Hi, I'm your host Angelique Laylay.
(01:50):
I used to perform as an aerial artist and I fell while I was
training. I was paralyzed from the hips
down. I've been in a wheelchair since
2012. You can learn more about us on
our website, lookingupfromhere.com.
Thanks for joining us today. OK, so hello ladies.
We're here together. We're going to have a day
(02:12):
talking about Laura and learningall things Laura.
So we thought we would start outby having you, Laura, tell us a
little bit about where you're from and what you, your life has
been as a, as a youngster growing up in your family, so we
can get to know your family a little bit.
Yeah, my, I was born in West Cork in Ireland and I am the
(02:38):
youngest of three and, and when my, my parents separated when I
was about 10, so my dad got remarried and had my brother
about 10 years after that. So I have two sisters and a
brother, but on one side of the family I'm the baby and not on
(02:59):
the other side. So but yeah, I was born in the
80s in Ireland, which, you know,we didn't know a lot about
disability then. And there was a, there's been a
very large evolution, I guess, in the course of my life.
So yeah, my parents kind of had two small children already when
(03:21):
I came along and there was no pre warning of being disabled
because they didn't have that kind of technology then.
Now you know and. What is your disability exactly?
Yeah, sorry, I was born with spina bifida and it wasn't that
(03:41):
very well known. But strangely enough, so I was
born in 85 and there was a largeamount of people in particularly
England and Ireland born with itaround that time and nobody
really knows why. Interesting.
There's no link to it in my family or there wasn't any
particular reason that they could find for my you know, my
(04:04):
mother was healthy and able bodied and never had, you know,
wasn't a. Like what is spina bifida?
What's the cause of it? It is basically when the child
is conceived, let's say. So along the line development,
very early on, there's a breakage in the split.
(04:27):
So it's actually the Latin for split spline and there's a
breakage somewhere along the line and the amniotic fluid can
kind of get in, let's say. And so for most of the
pregnancy, your spine is exposedwhile through developing, it's
(04:49):
not covered up, you know, now itdepends on where that happens
along your spine and how big thesplit is and all of that.
So they have to do surgery immediately when you're born.
Now, in some some places they, because they can tell they,
it's, it's only very early alongit, but they can go in when the
(05:12):
woman is pregnant. They can basically sew up that
and it's but that's a very like specific surgery that is only
available in certain places. So when I was born, I was
breech, which means I was feet first and that's quite common.
Spina bifida, apparently. And my mom says that like, the
(05:36):
only thing she remembers being different is that like, I was
very high up and I was in an uncomfortable position and not
moving very much during her pregnancy.
And she kept saying it to the doctor and she was like, there's
something different. So yeah, I was born in the 80s.
And then they just didn't know very much about it.
And I was very fortunate to get it was a really good doctor at
(06:01):
the time. And but there wasn't a lot of
physiotherapy and a lot of that available.
So my parents heard about this place in Budapest in Hungary.
It was on the TV or something, or there was an article written
about it. It was an institute called the
(06:24):
Petal Institute. And they, to their credit,
decided to take me there when I was about 2 1/2.
And we continue to go back everyfew months for years.
And it was very new then. But really it's kind of a, it
(06:45):
was kind of a calm, it's was called conductive education.
And it's really sort of a mixture of physiotherapy and
occupational therapy and what wewould know now as kind of
teaching kids how to learn to live in with this particular
(07:06):
situation in a world that's not designed for them, if you know
what I mean. There's very intense
physiotherapy. And it was very, it was for
months at a time. And we would go back and forth,
and my sisters would come with me and my dad and my two sisters
would stay for a little while. And then they would have to go
(07:27):
back because they would have school and work and my mom and I
would live there for another couple of months.
Was it for the whole family? Like was the whole family
involved in the therapy? Well, no, you, you had to go in
alone. You were not allowed to have
your parents with you. So from like 4 years old, I
(07:47):
would have to go in with the other kids all alone.
And there was not, you weren't allowed to have any.
Parents weren't allowed to stay with you because they thought
that was a distraction. And so you would have an intense
four or five hours a day with them and you would do all sorts
of physio and then her parents would come back and pick you up
(08:09):
at like the middle of the afternoon.
Wow. And what at that point were you
walking? Were you had you?
So I like explain OK what that was like.
It is spine with it affected me and that it's mostly my lower
limbs that that I have trouble with.
(08:33):
It meant I was walking for the first with splints with like
until I was about 8:00 and then I had certain problems with my
hips and stuff. And they advised that that
wasn't safe to continue to do. But yeah, they I learned to walk
(08:57):
on splints. It was all about your
countenance and your balance. And they had a lot of focus and
stuff like that, which was very forward thinking.
There was nothing like that in in Ireland or the UK up to that
point. But it was isolating in the
sense that we were going to a very different culture which
(09:23):
wasn't as English speaking as itis now.
Like it's not, it was like European the way those cities
are now. So for my parents, like I mean
they think about them in their 30s going 3 or 4 * a year into a
totally different culture with three very small children it.
(09:45):
Was scary for you? Like were you scared in it or
how did you feel? I wasn't because I was with them
and I was very young and I just didn't know that that was
different. But I mean, I look back on it
now and I continue to do it for until I was about.
I got held back in school at about 7:00 for a year because I
(10:09):
had spent too much time over there and the school decided
that I'd missed too much. And so my father, being very
concerned about that, decided that we couldn't continue to do
it as many times. So he set up what we call the
pedo fund and gotten other parents involved.
(10:32):
And they paid for those conductors to come to Ireland.
And we ran a summer camp out of my house.
Five years, four years, five years or something.
And they ran it every summer when I was a kid.
And but that allowed other kids in your community or in Ireland
(10:55):
to come? And participate.
Amazing. That's an amazing solution.
So they did, and they raised money and other parents were
kids. Like I was allowed to spend a
bifida. It was cerebral palsy.
It was conditions such as that. So, yeah, I mean, when I I
didn't really think about it as a child, but when I was older, I
(11:16):
was like, wow, you guys were very brave to do that.
Really they were very forward thinking and I, you know, when
your kids just like I, everybodydoes things like that.
No, no, everybody doesn't. Know yeah, being brave becomes
becomes normal. My mother went to the clinic
that was advised for us here in Ireland.
(11:38):
She took me at like 2 years old and the attitude was very like
there's nothing we can do. And, you know, this child may
not accomplish much. And that kind of attitude, which
is was a very 1980s view of disability in this country.
And she came home to my father and said, please don't make me
(11:59):
ever go back there. So my dad and her saw this.
And they were like, oh, we need to find something else.
There's nothing on offer here for us.
And they found something else. Now is the the summer camp and
the foundation still running is something that still exists.
No, we kept it going until I wasin my 20s, I'd say.
(12:22):
But then, you know, people went their separate ways and moved on
and things like that. And it was very difficult to
continue to fund and everything.But I had it for all of my
childhood, so. That's amazing.
So tell us a little bit about your parents.
They sound pretty amazing that they were.
(12:43):
Yeah, they were very like, they were very forward thinking like
that. They always thought there was a
solution to those things. And I think together they were
good at being like, if it isn't here for us, where can we go far
as and they never created that kind of jealousy or discomfort
(13:04):
and anything with my siblings, like my siblings and I, the
girls just thought, Oh, yeah, OK, this is what we're doing.
You know, they never like resented me for bringing them
out of school or, or so they've never said anyway.
I have asked a couple times but I think it gave ourselves like.
(13:24):
One person was getting more attention than anybody else.
I mean, I, I'm sure they must have thought, I mean, I did get
a lot of attention, but we always had a good relationship
and they were very careful to give them a lot of attention
also and to make it just like we're kind of a team and you
(13:46):
have to be on Laura's side. And we know she just might need
more help with this. And they were, they were very
good at being like, OK, well, that's just part of the deal.
And so I, you know, I think because we're all quite close in
age and I like the eldest is 4 years older than me and Julie in
the middle is 2 years older thanme.
(14:07):
So we could have really dislikedeach other for that reason, but
they were very good at being like, it's all the same here.
And I, I did have that feeling in my family, like even though
it was, I wasn't aware that I was, I knew something was
different, but I wasn't, I didn't feel different to them
until like I was older and otherpeople started to say it, you
(14:30):
know, like it wasn't a feeling that I had and myself, like I, I
did feel part of the family justas much as anybody else.
Right, right. Yeah.
So when did you realize, do you have a memory of, of being
younger and suddenly being like,hey, I, I have a very different
life than other people? Yeah, I mean, I, I think primary
(14:52):
school was difficult for me, which would be in elementary
school for you guys. It was difficult because I sort
of went into it not thinking I was any different than anyone
else. And, you know, kids are pretty
quick to tell you that's not true, You know, and there wasn't
that kind of culture of explaining to kids what the
(15:14):
issue was. I was the only disabled child in
the whole school. Right.
And, you know, nowadays people talk to the kids about what it
is and they ask questions, but that was just not the cultural
thing to do. We just didn't talk about it,
right? And that kind of really bred a
kind of a me and them sit sort of feeling, you know, I was very
(15:38):
excluded and they just didn't know how to handle it.
They were just like, we'll nevertalk about it.
And I was like, this is. OK, right.
So yeah, I did find school at that age difficult because I
knew they thought of me as not the same as them.
Right. You know, and you feel that even
(16:01):
if people don't say it, there's a sort of a sense that you're
not fitting. I didn't fit in easily in
primary school. It was, it was a bit of a
battle. Do you feel that as you got
older and more mature, you, you were able to handle it better?
Because it sounds like in our conversations you had a lot of
(16:23):
friends growing up, you know, and then college and whatnot.
So what was? Well, I was lucky in that I
think, and I do give my my dad credit for like my dad could
kind of see it. I think in school.
He knew I wasn't, you know, getting invited to the birthday
parties and things like that. And, and he encouraged me to
(16:46):
hang out with his friends, kids and people that were outside of
school. And I always had better
friendships with people outside of a school setting.
It was just, I think it was something about that institution
where you're all supposed to be the same and look the same and
have the same uniform and all that, but just just, it just
(17:07):
didn't sit well with me. And so I was much freer and able
to be part of the crowd when we weren't there.
And so a lot of my main friendships I didn't make at
school. And yeah, I think you get better
at it. You learn how to fit in better
as you get older, you learn the tricks of the trade and you
(17:28):
learn how to, you know, kind of slot in.
But when I was very young, I didn't really know what I was
trained to do. I was like, why is it different?
You know, there was no kind of language for any of that either
when I was young. You know, now people talk about
it, whereas I didn't really knowwhy they were kind of
(17:53):
standoffish with me here. What was the problem you know?
Yeah. So it was always easier outside
of school setting. So how do you think that that
experience, how do well, I want to say changed you, but I mean
you were who you were. So how did that experience
(18:16):
develop with you? Like what?
What were you learning from thatexperience that has has led to
who you are today? I think I'm quite insular.
I've always had sort of an inner, there was always kind of
an inner world going on because I was really good at keeping
(18:38):
myself company, right? You know, when you're a child,
when you're a kid that gets excluded from things, you just
learn how to hang out on your own.
Like you just just like, OK, so,you know, I'm grateful for that
now, but it was isolating as a young person.
But you do learn how to, you know, be in your own company and
(18:59):
it does make you resilient because you're not included in
the same way. But exclusion can be kind of
hard for me in terms of like, I think once you have that
experience, particularly young, it's hard to fitting in has
always been difficult for me. It's just, I don't know if then
(19:20):
it just becomes part of it, you know, it's becomes part of your
personality or something, or youjust don't slap in as easily.
I mean, I like we always joke with my eldest sister because
she would like, we'd go on a holiday and Kate would go walk
around and she'd come back with like 6 friends and if like we
should meet these people. She's just around, you know, I
(19:41):
was never that kid or she was always that kid, you know, who
had like hordes of people around.
So yeah, I think just you do learn to be quite self reliant.
Right. And there's sort of maybe a
little distrust of people in a way.
Like do you distrust that you'regoing to fit in or you, or
(20:06):
you're just more cautious with people because you don't know
what they're thinking or how they might react?
Yeah, and there's a difference between being yourself and
trying to fit in. Like when you're trying to fit
in, you're changing yourself. To be.
What you think the other people want?
(20:27):
That's really wise. And I got very good at doing
that. But then in my 20s, I was like,
but these people don't really know me because you're just
basically like trying to change your personality.
This circumstance, which everybody does to a certain
(20:48):
extent when they're going right.It's natural because we all want
to fit in, but. We had an extra hurdle with
that, right? Yeah, there's an extra amount of
performance and I think, you know, we were talking about that
recently. Like that gets tiring because
you're sort of and then you alsoquestion yourself of like, do
(21:08):
you know yourself well enough ifyou're constantly trying to
shape? Right.
To be who this crowd of people would like you to be, Yeah.
Yeah, that learning to make other people comfortable starts
early, and it's true. For.
I think it's start. I think it's true for everyone
to some degree. It's exceptionally true for
(21:28):
young women. And then you add the extra layer
of having a physical disability or just really probably anybody
with a disability. Yeah.
You know I. Mean we've got very good at at
noticing other people's discomfort.
Right, So maybe makes, I mean, Ialways think that there are
(21:50):
upsides to things right there. They're Silver Linings.
And I do wonder like that you develop a a certain empathy
because you are so attuned and that that empathy can become a
superpower, right? Absolutely.
And, and there's also a there's also a skill in making other
(22:13):
people comfortable with this. Oh yes, absolutely.
No, I learned a lot of ways to make people feel like it was OK,
you know, and, and those can be very useful, you know?
Absolutely, it's a skill. It Yeah.
Yeah, I always, I will. Not always.
But I've said for a long time now that empathy is my
superpower. But I had to learn to.
(22:38):
I had to learn to use it properly because it could also
be a terrible burden as well. Like I had to learn boundaries.
Absolutely, and also like I had to learn to be comfortable with
people's discomfort. Right.
Which I did not learn to like I was in my 30s.
(22:58):
Like I was like, if people were uncomfortable with it, I would
sort of almost like be making itmy mission for those people to
be comfortable with it. And I remember a friend of mine
being like, why is that your responsibility, right?
Like, why do you have, why do you have to make them
comfortable? Like they should work that out
themselves. Laura and I was like,
interesting. And because I did always feel
(23:21):
like what? Like I must make them feel
really comfortable now because it's me that's making them
uncomfortable. And she's like, is it you or is
it their own feeling? You know, right?
Now, are you getting that from more than one person or is it do
you just have one friend who's just like amazingly insightful
like that? No, I I do remember 1 friend
saying to me, why is that your responsibility?
(23:42):
And I was like interesting, but no other like in bigger crowds,
like I would be like, oh, you know, I should go over to that
person or something. And they'd be like, no, you
should not. Like, why are you?
Why are you making an OK for that?
You know, or like they would saysomething inappropriate to me
(24:03):
about disability or make commentand then I would be like almost
making them feel better about itafterwards because a lot of
people when they say in an appropriate thing, will realize
afterwards that that was inappropriate.
And then I would be like really comforting them about it's OK,
don't worry. And my way just like accept your
apology and move on. Like, no, no, I wasn't at all
(24:25):
uncomfortable. I was like, yes, I was, you
know, or it didn't hurt my feelings or, you know, whatever.
Yeah, yeah. It takes a lot of maturity to
get to a point where where someone apologizes instead of
me, like, oh, it's OK. You go like, yeah, that really,
that didn't feel good. That didn't feel good, but.
But thank you for saying that. And we'll just move on from
(24:46):
here, you know, kind of honesty.Didn't bother me at all.
Right. Yeah, that kind of honesty is
hard. Yeah, so making, making it my
mission for other people to be comfortable with this as a
mission that I have given up. I I handed him notice.
(25:09):
I was like, all right, I'm quitting this job.
Yeah, but I I did it for many, many years.
I love to hear that. I love that.
So it sounds like your family, you know, what you said earlier
about how your mom went to that meeting, They're like, yeah, you
don't expect much from this child.
And your family were like, yeah,we're not going to listen to
(25:31):
that advice. It sounds like they just
expected everything normally from you and maybe some more.
So you obviously did well in school.
You went to college. Well, tell us.
About that path school was tricky for me.
You know, I don't know if I'd goso far as to say I have regrets
(25:53):
about it, but I certainly didn'tget on as well as I now think I
would have been able to manage it.
Like, you know what I mean? I sort of was, was having a hard
time and wasn't really able to explain that or, you know, kind
(26:15):
of communicate to them that things were tricky for me.
And so it did affect my ability to get out and do well in school
in terms of grades and stuff. Because you were in a place
where you didn't feel like you fit.
Yeah, yeah. And anything that, you know what
(26:37):
that was difficult for me to do,I would just sort of either
escape it or, you know, saying how are we going to manage it?
You know, I would just take myself out of that situation,
right? And that's not a good recipe for
learning because I desperately wanted to blend in.
(27:06):
Like I was one of those childrenwho, if you could have offered
me, you know, a machine that just made me look exactly like
the other kids, I would have taken it.
So I did not want to stand out in any way, shape or form.
And that kind of translated as if I was struggling.
I didn't put my hand up and say,I don't understand this.
(27:29):
And that had a big effect on my learning because I just already
felt like I stood out so much that I was like, I am certainly
not going to put my head above this to be any more obvious to
you people. So, yeah, I have regrets about
that because now I think if I had, you know, had a different
(27:52):
situation, I would have said, I don't, I'm struggling with this
or I need more help or whatever.Yeah.
But it wasn't really possible for me at that time, so I sort
of just drifted kind of slightlyunder the radar.
Right. Right.
And that was the struggle and yeah, that it did affect my
(28:16):
grades. So when did poetry come into
your life? In secondary school, I, like I
said, I was quite self-containedand I wanted to, I always was
very interested in other people and, and how like English and
(28:40):
history were like my favorite subjects.
And I was just really interestedin the people and how they were
formed and why they would say these things and why they did.
You know, I was just very interested in in, I suppose,
words as a way of communicating how you felt and what was going
(29:02):
on inside. Because I didn't like there was
a lot of stuff happening internally and I didn't really
have any way to kind of communicate that to people.
So the poetry was probably a wayof being like, this is amazing
that people can sit down and communicate everything that
(29:25):
there's going on in there insideof them.
Did you have a particular teacher that that these things
into your hands or was it just part of the course of things?
Well, I suppose for poetry it was part of the course of
things. Strangely enough, I had, I had a
(29:45):
teacher who I was terrible at math and continued to be
terrible at math. Math is not my strong point and
I really struggled with that in school.
And I had a maths teacher who was just really kind and he gave
me, you know, extra tuition in school because I was struggling
(30:05):
with maths. And he, he was helping me with
my final exams. And he wouldn't take any, like,
payment or anything from my parents for, like, teaching,
giving me extra classes because he was like, no, Laura's my
student. And if she is struggling, then
(30:25):
that's my responsibility to get her through the exams, right?
So I wrote him a letter when I was at school just saying how
grateful I was and, you know, all this.
And I was sitting outside the exam hall and he came up to wish
us all luck. Yeah.
And he said to me, you know, being mad at bad at maths is
(30:50):
just being bad at maths. He was like, don't internalize
this, like being bad at everything.
He said you're you're a good writer and you have a lot of
other talents. And he's like, sometimes people
are just bad at things and they move on with their lives.
And I was, you know, I was like,OK.
He was like, don't take it as like a failure of personality or
(31:11):
Marsh or whatever. He was like, some people are
just bad at math. And I was like, interesting.
So he was very nice to me and very like, something else is
going on here and you're dealingwith a lot of things and don't
attach this and make it a big massive failing.
It's not. Wow, you're lucky to have a
teacher like that. Can we, can we go back and make
(31:32):
him like Teacher of the year? I write him I I send him a
Christmas card every year. So that's nice, yeah, because.
He really just made me feel like, you know what an exam is
just an exam, and there's a lot of things going on here.
You should draw a line under this afterwards and not dwell on
it. It's not a personal failing.
I was like, OK, great. So.
(31:54):
So that was nice. Yeah.
I think I just was very interested in people's inner
worlds. And that's where the poetry came
in. There was just a lot of stuff
going on and I was like, this isthe way you process it.
Right. Emotionally, you know?
Who's your favorite? Who are your favorite poets?
(32:16):
I loved Emily Dickinson when I was in school and to be honest,
I loved a lot of the female poets because I thought that
they were given a bad rap. I feel like you're not
appreciated as much as the male poets.
Right, right. There's.
A sense of injustice and that. Especially like of Emily
(32:38):
Dickinson's day. Like nowadays I think we see a
lot more of the female poets on equal standing, but back then it
was a lot harder. Her and like Sylvia Plath and
people who I just felt like justgot a bit of a bad rap so I
loved them in particular. But yeah, just it was I think a
way for me to kind of process the emotion of like just grow
(33:01):
just puberty and on top of everything with disability was,
which was just a lot of stuff, you know, I was like, this is
how you, you know, hand they handle it, you know.
So yeah, it was, I suppose, a tool for me to kind of manage my
own everything else going on. And so you went to college and
(33:26):
majored in What did you say? I went to Community College and
I studied radio and communications and then I got a
job in radio and I produced a radio program for about 3 1/2
(33:47):
years. Wow, what kind of weight
program? It was a sort of current affairs
and lifestyle kind of community radio, which I loved, was my
first job and I started work experience there when I was like
19. And then I went on to get the
job when I left and I loved thatjob.
It was one of my favorite jobs I've ever done.
(34:09):
That's cool. It was a kind of a we're all
A-Team getting this one thing done, which I loved.
You know, there wasn't any kind of like this bit is your job and
this bit is not my job. You know, it was none of that.
It was all like we have a commongoal to get this one show out
and it felt like being part of ateam.
And I expose it was the first time I'd really, I didn't really
(34:31):
play team sports or anything. So that was my first experience
of really being on a team when Iwas about 20.
And I really enjoyed the camaraderie of kind of like role
in this to get this one thing out out there.
So I really enjoyed that show. Where did that lead you?
(34:51):
I yeah, so I didn't go to get myundergraduate degree straight
out of college. And I kind of had a wish, I
suppose, to go and get my undergraduate degree.
So when I was old enough to playto be what they call a mature
(35:13):
student, which is an oxymoron. When I was old enough to apply
to be a mature student in university, I left and I went
and got my undergrads and then later my master's degree in
(35:33):
English less. Wow.
So yeah, I did that from about like 23 to 26.
And ice was really formative forme.
I was kind of a wish fulfillmentthat I would get there and like
in school, because my grades were not what I wanted them to
(35:55):
be, I kind of thought I was never going to be able to do
that. So it was really nice for me and
the kind of fulfilling A wish for myself that I was would be
able to. Get money, did you?
Did you go on to teach with that?
I got a job in in marketing because tended to kind of go to
(36:19):
marketing jobs and admin jobs and which is very often people
who study English end up in thatkind of role.
So yeah, he went down that route.
It overlapped with a lot of purewriting and press releases and
all that kind of it kind of tookme down that path rather than
teaching. So I did a lot of like press
(36:43):
officer jobs and marketing assistant jobs and things like
that. And do you continue to work or
did you retire? I, I suppose after I was
working, I go through COVID and everything, umm, I worked from
home and umm, so I've been out of it now for a couple of years,
but umm, just my health and stuff like that.
(37:05):
Umm, but I hope that, yeah, I'llbe able to go back Paris time.
A lot of the last few years havebeen kind of realizing that that
five day week structure is difficult for me to maintain.
And I had a really difficult time accepting this, you know,
(37:27):
because I suppose I believed like five days a week was what
people worked. And, you know, like this whole
idea, I suppose in the pandemic as well of this idea of like
people are rethinking the structure and about hybrid work
and what's the best, you know, Ibelieve that there was a
structure there and I was just supposed to be able to fit into
(37:48):
it. There's that fitting in again,
right? Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a
strong team with my life. And I'm kind of wrapping my head
around the fact that like, you have to, you have to get it to
fit your, your life and your, what suits you best and what
will be able to get the best outof you in terms of like
(38:08):
performance, you know? With the balances.
Yeah, so that's been a whole kind of strange.
Right. Letting go of normative things.
Right, right, right. Yeah.
How was the pandemic for you? What was that like?
Very strange. I don't know what it was like
there, but I there was a lot of like if you are a person whose
(38:33):
immune system is not strong or if you're like.
And I suddenly found myself having to put myself in category
that I had never really thought about it before.
And I suppose I had never reallythought of myself like that.
So it was a kind of a re jiggingof what?
(38:55):
Like I was more vulnerable and Ihad to kind of sit with that,
right, and realize that that wastrue.
Yeah, I'm still. Thought of myself that way and
right, you know, right to that point, I guess, right.
When fitting in is like starts to be deadly potentially, it's
(39:16):
like a whole other game. Exactly.
And when you are when fitting inis at the detriment of like
tiredness and. Personal well-being.
Personal energy and well-being it, yeah, you really have to
start to think about it in termsof like what you're, what's the
cost to you, right. Keep that up.
Yeah. And that's like a whole
(39:36):
conversation of itself, right? Yeah, the pandemic is.
Completely. Yeah, it did.
I think it changed a lot of people's.
Yeah. Relationship to that kind of a
thing. Sure.
When did you discover MBS? So my mom is a yoga teacher and
she always thought yoga when I was young.
(39:57):
And so I was always, you know, aware of it and I was always
part of my childhood, my life and I.
Done it on and off, you know, over the years gone into like
traditional yoga classes and participated on and off and
whatever. What type of yoga did she teach
(40:21):
do you mind me asking? Well, she what type of yoga did
she teach? That's a good question.
Trying to remember what it was. She went to the Corpallo Center
and she trained there and she always taught yoga classes when
(40:42):
I was growing up, so I was very aware of it.
But adaptive yoga is not really a thing or wasn't really a
thing. You know, they do like chair
yoga as a thing, but adaptive yoga the way that MBS does, it
was not really available in Ireland or I wasn't aware of it,
(41:07):
let's say. I mean, is it even now?
I mean, is it even a thing besides becoming?
Like a bit more, but it's not it's like mind body Solutions
does is very different than anything else that I had come
across before and so. What year did you come across
(41:27):
it? So I suppose about 2017 when I
went to university, I started getting panic attacks quite
regularly and I didn't really understand what was happening.
And I didn't really understand about like disassociation, which
(41:52):
is just like a thing I had learned to do to manage life
right Over the years. What I've learned about this
association is that if you choose it as a, as a way of
managing, you know, people do and they kind of can switch
something off, that's OK. But when it starts to choose you
(42:12):
right, it's not good for your mental health.
Like when you can't turn it off.Right.
But do don't you think we fall into that like do you think
anybody's like, OK, I'm going todisassociate.
Don't you think it just? No, but I think.
Like a little at a time. You learn like, oh, this feels
better. And so, yeah.
(42:33):
As in, that's what I mean you. Just do it and then and then it
becomes just how you do things and you don't even know you're
doing it. Yeah.
And I think like, that's what I mean by choosing.
And I mean like, people can disassociate in lots of ways and
they can like, you know, binge watch or they can do whatever.
(42:54):
And that's a, you know, a way that they're choosing to kind of
zone out from whatever is going on and lots.
OK. But it started to be a thing
that I couldn't turn off right, you know, And I could feel a
kind of a lifting out happening to my body and it started to
(43:17):
really freak me out. And I was thinking, oh,
something's really wrong, you know, And I thought like I was
losing my mind and things like that.
I thought I'm definitely having some sort of like breakdown or
something because it was just happening without my
participation. And so I said to my mom one day
(43:41):
I'm leaving. I feel like I'm leaving my body
a lot. And she was like, what do you
mean? And I was like, I just feel like
I can't stop it. And it's really starting to
scare me. And I was really getting
worried. And one day I was listening to
Krista Tippett's On Being and Matthew Sanford, who is the
(44:05):
creature or if you started MBS, was on it.
And I just have never heard any human being say the things that
he said, right, in my entire life.
Things like having the right to live in your own body and things
like, you know, just about taking up that space and, and I
(44:28):
had never heard a disabled person talk like that.
Right. And I was like, oh, this is
interesting. And I remember being in my mom's
house and just going out to the kitchen and saying to her, I
think I have to go there. Yeah.
And like that I had done, you know, a few yoga classes and,
(44:49):
you know, whatever over the years.
This was like going to a yoga training and my mother and the
polite way was kind of like, Nora, do you think this is
maybe, you know, a bit much? I was like, no, I think this is
a great. This is what I need.
You just recognized. It I had gone from like one girl
(45:12):
class every kind of few months to like I think I'll just go to
the whole training and she was abit like sounds a little bit
extreme, but OK. And you know, NBS wasn't online
then or any of that the way thatit is now.
So there was no way of participating like that unless I
(45:34):
when thing right so. So what year was that you you
decided to go in? 2018. 2018, yeah.
So you got on a plane and you went to Minneapolis.
This is going to, I don't know what's going to happen and
because my family was a bit like, Are you sure about this?
(45:54):
I mean, they took you to Hungary, so why not?
Many no, no. But they took me to Hungary as a
child. Like I was like, I think I'm
just going to go off to America,like on my own, whatever.
My mom turned to me and her and her partner were like, I think
maybe we will go with you. And the first time I went, they
did go with me because I think they were like, we have no idea
(46:15):
where you're going or who these people are or if you're going to
even be able to sustain a training like from 10:00 in the
morning until whatever. You know, like my mom was like,
maybe you might need somebody there to just help you out.
And I was. Like trainings are, trainings
are pretty rigorous too. They're.
Yeah, it was rigorous. And so I think I think my mother
(46:38):
was a bit like this might be a bit of a jump, but I was
determined to go. I was like, no, I just heard his
voice and I thought, OK, I got Ihave to go figure out what this.
Is I got to go meet this guy? Yeah.
I got to go meet this guy. I got on the plane and they had
a massive snowstorm that year. And so first of all, they said
(46:58):
we weren't going to be able to go.
And you had to fly from Ireland to Chicago and then from Chicago
to Minneapolis because there wasn't a direct flight.
Right. So it like snow is piling up
around me and sat on the runway and the the air Hostess was
like, I don't know if this is going to take off.
(47:20):
And I just thought if I've come all the way and they're going to
tell me to go home. But we made it and yeah, it was
like, I mean, it has really changed my life a lot.
And I think in some ways, obviously I met both of you that
through through MBS. But also even just talking about
(47:43):
living in a body that's not, youknow, like everyone else or, you
know, traditional is something Inever really did up until that
point. You know, I didn't really, I had
a very sort of internal experience that I didn't really
investigate. So it's been interesting to just
(48:07):
kind of go, what would it be like to see what this is?
To talk about this. Talk about it and and experience
it in a different way, you know?Well, also just, I had the same
experience, you know, I had. I actually was investigating
trauma and listening to Bessel Vanderkulk's interview with
(48:31):
Christa Christa Tippett, at the end of which she says to Bessel,
have you ever heard of Matthew Sanford?
And at that point, he did not. And so she tells Matthew's
story. And so she's really who
introduced Matthew and Bessel. I didn't know that I.
Didn't know that. So then I was like, well, yeah,
go back and listen to Vessel's interview with her.
(48:52):
So then I was like, wow, he sounds interesting.
So then I listened to her interview with Matthew.
And then I was like, I need to know more about this person.
And that's how I found MBS. Because, you know, that was that
was at the very beginning of COVID.
I had just become a full time wheelchair user.
(49:14):
I couldn't go anywhere anyways, right?
I had lost all of my traditionalsupports of physical therapy and
Pilates and, you know, all the people that were my life that
make me able to function, you know, vaporized during COVID.
And so finding Matthew and and this group was just
(49:38):
transformative for me. Well, it's funny because people
say to me when I tell them that I went or when anyone asks me
about it, I think they were like, oh, you wanted to go and
do yoga or you were, you know, doing it like a, the way people
do this physiotherapy or you were, you know, doing it for
(50:02):
like some exercise purposes. And I was like, no, I got on a
plane, right? To.
Literally go and ask Matthew howthe hell I was gonna continue to
live in this body. Right.
And manage it in my mind. And he very annoyingly was like,
you have to figure that out in your own.
And I was like, and he's continued to tell me that over
(50:27):
Yeah, you're right. I do have to figure it out on my
own. How very annoying.
But I was literally like, I'll go and ask him and he'll give me
some answers, then I'll go home.And that's the way my mind,
like, it's been an experience oflike, I have a very empirical
kind of mind. Like my mind will figure this
puzzle out. And you can't do that when
(50:49):
you're disabled. Like it's just not going to
work. There's no formula.
There's no like, you know, sing that you can learn off that's
going to help you get through it.
It's just not it's just not, youknow, there's no figuring it
out, which is what I've learned.And I think it really helped me
be at peace with that. Not that I'm at peace with it
(51:11):
all the time, but like I now know no matter how many books I
read or things I learn, you justhave to live it right?
There's no, there's no sort of magic.
Yeah, there's no magic answer. There's.
Just there is no magic. There's only way overs through
right? It's the, and isn't that like
the true yoga? Like I, I try to explain to
(51:33):
people, you know, I have lots offriends that are into yoga of
various kinds and they're all putting on their little stretchy
cute outfits and going to placesand sweating and being on mats
and, and then, and they love it and that's great.
And then and so that like they can't really understand what I'm
talking about when I'm talking about yoga.
And the thing that I love about about Matthew and his program is
(51:57):
that I feel like that's the trueyoga because so much of it is
about the internal experience. It's about the awareness and the
connection, and it's an intellectual.
It's about the talks about the subtle body.
He talks about the movement of prana, he talks about asana and,
(52:25):
and what that means and how important that is.
And it's, you know, most people don't even think about it or
consider it and it and become spiritual practically, at least
for me, that's how it feels. But it but then it's practical
at the same time. It's like it's not just some
like esoteric thing. It's it's like, no, this is
(52:47):
real. This is what it is.
Yeah, and that's what I mean, people were like, oh, you're
going to go into yoga and, you know, that's really good for
your, I don't know, core strengthen your posture.
And it is, by the way, it's verygood.
Compliment me on my posture so much more now.
I'm like, yeah, but that's not the way why I do it.
(53:11):
Like, I do it for my peace, for a sense of kind of resting in
this body in a way that I just did not do before.
I think I was just desperate forsomeone to tell me like how do I
make peace with this? Right.
And how do I land in this spot? Like, is it always going to feel
(53:32):
like something's wrong? Right.
And I think you just helps me tobe like, no, you just that's
what happens when your mind takes over and goes I will solve
you. I will solve this problem that
is disability. Right, that's actually really
insightful, this idea that this experience, my life is something
(53:54):
to solve for and to to step backand say, well, but is it is or
is my life an experience that just needs to be fully
integrated? And how do I find peace in this
experience? Because the the pressure to
(54:16):
solve is what creates anxiety 100% because all three of us, we
don't have problems that can be solved.
It's not solvable. You know, it's like that Cohen.
You know, this is like you can literally drive yourself crazy
trying to come up with solutionshere and finding a path to peace
(54:40):
through the body. Is it, it sounds like it
wouldn't be possible because thebody is the problem, right?
So it's such an interesting idea, a counterintuitive idea to
say, OK, but let's start with the body.
(55:00):
And by coming back to the body and listening to the body and
feeling it and integrating with it again, you can find peace
that that wisdom in the body is such a powerful idea.
Yeah. And I think I was, I was really
naive and I thought like, oh, I'm going to learn my way out of
(55:24):
it. Like I, I, which is always my,
you know, my default things likeI can learn this.
Like I, you know, I'll go to theyoga training and I'll sit there
with my notepad and pen and people will explain to me, you
know, how to puzzle my way out of this disabled problem.
(55:45):
Like really I may. Not get math, but I'll be able
to get yoga for sure. My thing was surely someone
teach me some things and I the only thing that I learned is
that nothing can teach me out ofthis.
Like I can't like I can't sidestep the way out by like
(56:08):
being like. But if I work really hard, I
also think it was same manipulative like and now I
thought my mind was going to teach my body some things,
right? Why?
Did that not happen? No.
My body was just sitting in the wings going, oh, you just can't
wait until what I have to teach you?
(56:28):
My favorite thing that he says in the beginning of class is
feel more rather than less. Every single time I'm like, oh,
here we go. Boss Giant.
Is that really important? I'm like, I spent years
perfecting leaving this, years of like trying to disassociate.
(56:53):
I was just like, well, I'm so good at it, Mash.
I mean, he's like, yeah, I know.So that was disappointing.
I was like, OK, but it has been kind of, I guess just mind
blowing in terms of like how much the body actually knows.
Like I actually really didn't know that.
(57:13):
I really didn't. I was very like naive about the
wisdom that actually is there ifI just got out of my own way for
five. Minutes.
Can you put any of that in words?
Like what would you say your biggest take away has been so
far in terms of that wisdom I. Think one of the biggest
takeaways is that I really believed that if I was to really
(57:36):
live in this body, like if I wasto really go in there and hang
out, I was going to find all theproblems and I was going to be
really uncomfortable. And that the only way to to get
through it was to leave. A guy thought, well, yeah, my
escape routes are my only answer, you know?
(57:59):
And what I learned is like, there is a resting place in here
and there is like, actually somecalm and I just was looking in
the wrong place for that, you know, like I really did.
It was like, don't send me in there to like, be in my own
body. Like, that sounds horrifying.
(58:20):
Like it just, I was so horrifiedwas like, no, that seems really
like a bad idea. I did yoga when I came home.
I got a yoga teacher and she used to come to my house and do
it with me for a little bit after I did the training.
And I told her that I don't likemeditation and I don't want to
do that. Like I don't want to be still in
(58:42):
it. And she's like, OK, OK, well
we'll do like 2 minutes and we'll see, you know what it's
like. And I was like, OK, And now it's
like one of my favorite things because I just thought, oh, that
level. I just couldn't sit in that.
Like it'd be so uncomfortable. For me to just.
Be in it. Right, right.
Because I, you know, the association when you're disabled
(59:07):
is that like you said, that's where all the problems come
from. So I was like, why would I want
to hang out? There, right, right.
Seems like a bad idea. Has it gone well so far?
I don't know why I'd want to go do that.
Like, why would I want to hang out in that place, right?
(59:27):
And actually, when I do do that,then there is a sort of a rest.
There's not as much drama if I just kind of go, OK, you know,
just be here for a minute, see what happens, you know.
So I just, I, when I, when I diddo that, I was like, oh, there's
(59:48):
actually a sense of peace there and comfort to live, be at home
in your own body in a way that Ijust really fundamentally didn't
believe disabled people could do.
Like I really didn't. Right.
I was like, that's for able bodied people who don't have any
problems with their body. And Matt was like, no, no, no,
(01:00:13):
that's not. That's not I would close.
I was like, OK. Wonderful.
This has been a wonderful conversation.
I really appreciate Laura, you opening up and sharing a lot.
I know that it's not intuitive for you.
I know it's a hard thing right around it.
Yeah, you did great. You did great.
(01:00:35):
Hey, before we go, we want to tell you about a very special
organization that brought the three of us together five years
ago. It's called Mind Body Solutions.
They offer live online adaptive yoga classes, a YouTube library,
unique student only gathering spaces, and special live events
hosted by founder Matthew Sanford.
There's no feat to participate and no yoga experience required.
(01:00:59):
At MBS, you can connect with others who have disabilities and
reconnect with yourself. That's their mission, to help
people live more vibrantly and more connected, both in mind and
body. MBS has helped each of us
discover new ways to live, work,move, and simply be in the
bodies we have. And they can help you too.
(01:01:20):
So if you're listening and living with a disability or know
someone who is, check out their website at
mindbodysolutions.org. It's free, it's hopeful, and
there's room for everybody. Thatsmindbodysolutions.org.
You can also connect with them through our Looking up
(01:01:41):
fromhere.com resources web page.Thank you.
So making, making it my mission for other people to be
comfortable with, this is a mission that I have given up.
I, I handed in my notice. I was like, all right, let's.
I was like, I'm quitting this job.
(00:26):
Hello and welcome to Looking Up From Here, a podcast adventure
where Angelique, Laura and I explore the all-encompassing
experience of living with a disability.
In this podcast, we delve into how disability influences our
interactions with the world around us and how the world
responds to us. Along the way, we share our
(00:48):
personal journeys and open up about how our lives and
identities have been shaped by our reliance on wheelchairs for
mobility. Thank you for joining us and our
guests for these heartfelt and often humorous conversations
where we hope you'll gain a deeper understanding of what it
takes to navigate life on wheelsand maybe learn something about
(01:09):
just living your best life, no matter what challenges you're
facing. Hi, I'm your host, Samantha
Geary. I was diagnosed with multiple
sclerosis in my 20s and have lived with its ups and downs for
(01:29):
over 30 years, including many levels of disability, and I've
used a wheelchair full time since 2020.
Hi, I'm your host Laura Halsey. I live in West Quirk in Ireland.
I was born with a condition called Spina Bifta and I have
been in a wheelchair for about 30 years.
Hi, I'm your host Angelique Laylay.
(01:50):
I used to perform as an aerial artist and I fell while I was
training. I was paralyzed from the hips
down. I've been in a wheelchair since
2012. You can learn more about us on
our website, lookingupfromhere.com.
Thanks for joining us today. OK, so hello ladies.
We're here together. We're going to have a day
(02:12):
talking about Laura and learningall things Laura.
So we thought we would start outby having you, Laura, tell us a
little bit about where you're from and what you, your life has
been as a, as a youngster growing up in your family, so we
can get to know your family a little bit.
Yeah, my, I was born in West Cork in Ireland and I am the
(02:38):
youngest of three and, and when my, my parents separated when I
was about 10, so my dad got remarried and had my brother
about 10 years after that. So I have two sisters and a
brother, but on one side of the family I'm the baby and not on
(02:59):
the other side. So but yeah, I was born in the
80s in Ireland, which, you know,we didn't know a lot about
disability then. And there was a, there's been a
very large evolution, I guess, in the course of my life.
So yeah, my parents kind of had two small children already when
(03:21):
I came along and there was no pre warning of being disabled
because they didn't have that kind of technology then.
Now you know and. What is your disability exactly?
Yeah, sorry, I was born with spina bifida and it wasn't that
(03:41):
very well known. But strangely enough, so I was
born in 85 and there was a largeamount of people in particularly
England and Ireland born with itaround that time and nobody
really knows why. Interesting.
There's no link to it in my family or there wasn't any
particular reason that they could find for my you know, my
(04:04):
mother was healthy and able bodied and never had, you know,
wasn't a. Like what is spina bifida?
What's the cause of it? It is basically when the child
is conceived, let's say. So along the line development,
very early on, there's a breakage in the split.
(04:27):
So it's actually the Latin for split spline and there's a
breakage somewhere along the line and the amniotic fluid can
kind of get in, let's say. And so for most of the
pregnancy, your spine is exposedwhile through developing, it's
(04:49):
not covered up, you know, now itdepends on where that happens
along your spine and how big thesplit is and all of that.
So they have to do surgery immediately when you're born.
Now, in some some places they, because they can tell they,
it's, it's only very early alongit, but they can go in when the
(05:12):
woman is pregnant. They can basically sew up that
and it's but that's a very like specific surgery that is only
available in certain places. So when I was born, I was
breech, which means I was feet first and that's quite common.
Spina bifida, apparently. And my mom says that like, the
(05:36):
only thing she remembers being different is that like, I was
very high up and I was in an uncomfortable position and not
moving very much during her pregnancy.
And she kept saying it to the doctor and she was like, there's
something different. So yeah, I was born in the 80s.
And then they just didn't know very much about it.
And I was very fortunate to get it was a really good doctor at
(06:01):
the time. And but there wasn't a lot of
physiotherapy and a lot of that available.
So my parents heard about this place in Budapest in Hungary.
It was on the TV or something, or there was an article written
about it. It was an institute called the
(06:24):
Petal Institute. And they, to their credit,
decided to take me there when I was about 2 1/2.
And we continue to go back everyfew months for years.
And it was very new then. But really it's kind of a, it
(06:45):
was kind of a calm, it's was called conductive education.
And it's really sort of a mixture of physiotherapy and
occupational therapy and what wewould know now as kind of
teaching kids how to learn to live in with this particular
(07:06):
situation in a world that's not designed for them, if you know
what I mean. There's very intense
physiotherapy. And it was very, it was for
months at a time. And we would go back and forth,
and my sisters would come with me and my dad and my two sisters
would stay for a little while. And then they would have to go
(07:27):
back because they would have school and work and my mom and I
would live there for another couple of months.
Was it for the whole family? Like was the whole family
involved in the therapy? Well, no, you, you had to go in
alone. You were not allowed to have
your parents with you. So from like 4 years old, I
(07:47):
would have to go in with the other kids all alone.
And there was not, you weren't allowed to have any.
Parents weren't allowed to stay with you because they thought
that was a distraction. And so you would have an intense
four or five hours a day with them and you would do all sorts
of physio and then her parents would come back and pick you up
(08:09):
at like the middle of the afternoon.
Wow. And what at that point were you
walking? Were you had you?
So I like explain OK what that was like.
It is spine with it affected me and that it's mostly my lower
limbs that that I have trouble with.
(08:33):
It meant I was walking for the first with splints with like
until I was about 8:00 and then I had certain problems with my
hips and stuff. And they advised that that
wasn't safe to continue to do. But yeah, they I learned to walk
(08:57):
on splints. It was all about your
countenance and your balance. And they had a lot of focus and
stuff like that, which was very forward thinking.
There was nothing like that in in Ireland or the UK up to that
point. But it was isolating in the
sense that we were going to a very different culture which
(09:23):
wasn't as English speaking as itis now.
Like it's not, it was like European the way those cities
are now. So for my parents, like I mean
they think about them in their 30s going 3 or 4 * a year into a
totally different culture with three very small children it.
(09:45):
Was scary for you? Like were you scared in it or
how did you feel? I wasn't because I was with them
and I was very young and I just didn't know that that was
different. But I mean, I look back on it
now and I continue to do it for until I was about.
I got held back in school at about 7:00 for a year because I
(10:09):
had spent too much time over there and the school decided
that I'd missed too much. And so my father, being very
concerned about that, decided that we couldn't continue to do
it as many times. So he set up what we call the
pedo fund and gotten other parents involved.
(10:32):
And they paid for those conductors to come to Ireland.
And we ran a summer camp out of my house.
Five years, four years, five years or something.
And they ran it every summer when I was a kid.
And but that allowed other kids in your community or in Ireland
(10:55):
to come? And participate.
Amazing. That's an amazing solution.
So they did, and they raised money and other parents were
kids. Like I was allowed to spend a
bifida. It was cerebral palsy.
It was conditions such as that. So, yeah, I mean, when I I
didn't really think about it as a child, but when I was older, I
(11:16):
was like, wow, you guys were very brave to do that.
Really they were very forward thinking and I, you know, when
your kids just like I, everybodydoes things like that.
No, no, everybody doesn't. Know yeah, being brave becomes
becomes normal. My mother went to the clinic
that was advised for us here in Ireland.
(11:38):
She took me at like 2 years old and the attitude was very like
there's nothing we can do. And, you know, this child may
not accomplish much. And that kind of attitude, which
is was a very 1980s view of disability in this country.
And she came home to my father and said, please don't make me
(11:59):
ever go back there. So my dad and her saw this.
And they were like, oh, we need to find something else.
There's nothing on offer here for us.
And they found something else. Now is the the summer camp and
the foundation still running is something that still exists.
No, we kept it going until I wasin my 20s, I'd say.
(12:22):
But then, you know, people went their separate ways and moved on
and things like that. And it was very difficult to
continue to fund and everything.But I had it for all of my
childhood, so. That's amazing.
So tell us a little bit about your parents.
They sound pretty amazing that they were.
(12:43):
Yeah, they were very like, they were very forward thinking like
that. They always thought there was a
solution to those things. And I think together they were
good at being like, if it isn't here for us, where can we go far
as and they never created that kind of jealousy or discomfort
(13:04):
and anything with my siblings, like my siblings and I, the
girls just thought, Oh, yeah, OK, this is what we're doing.
You know, they never like resented me for bringing them
out of school or, or so they've never said anyway.
I have asked a couple times but I think it gave ourselves like.
(13:24):
One person was getting more attention than anybody else.
I mean, I, I'm sure they must have thought, I mean, I did get
a lot of attention, but we always had a good relationship
and they were very careful to give them a lot of attention
also and to make it just like we're kind of a team and you
(13:46):
have to be on Laura's side. And we know she just might need
more help with this. And they were, they were very
good at being like, OK, well, that's just part of the deal.
And so I, you know, I think because we're all quite close in
age and I like the eldest is 4 years older than me and Julie in
the middle is 2 years older thanme.
(14:07):
So we could have really dislikedeach other for that reason, but
they were very good at being like, it's all the same here.
And I, I did have that feeling in my family, like even though
it was, I wasn't aware that I was, I knew something was
different, but I wasn't, I didn't feel different to them
until like I was older and otherpeople started to say it, you
(14:30):
know, like it wasn't a feeling that I had and myself, like I, I
did feel part of the family justas much as anybody else.
Right, right. Yeah.
So when did you realize, do you have a memory of, of being
younger and suddenly being like,hey, I, I have a very different
life than other people? Yeah, I mean, I, I think primary
(14:52):
school was difficult for me, which would be in elementary
school for you guys. It was difficult because I sort
of went into it not thinking I was any different than anyone
else. And, you know, kids are pretty
quick to tell you that's not true, You know, and there wasn't
that kind of culture of explaining to kids what the
(15:14):
issue was. I was the only disabled child in
the whole school. Right.
And, you know, nowadays people talk to the kids about what it
is and they ask questions, but that was just not the cultural
thing to do. We just didn't talk about it,
right? And that kind of really bred a
kind of a me and them sit sort of feeling, you know, I was very
(15:38):
excluded and they just didn't know how to handle it.
They were just like, we'll nevertalk about it.
And I was like, this is. OK, right.
So yeah, I did find school at that age difficult because I
knew they thought of me as not the same as them.
Right. You know, and you feel that even
(16:01):
if people don't say it, there's a sort of a sense that you're
not fitting. I didn't fit in easily in
primary school. It was, it was a bit of a
battle. Do you feel that as you got
older and more mature, you, you were able to handle it better?
Because it sounds like in our conversations you had a lot of
(16:23):
friends growing up, you know, and then college and whatnot.
So what was? Well, I was lucky in that I
think, and I do give my my dad credit for like my dad could
kind of see it. I think in school.
He knew I wasn't, you know, getting invited to the birthday
parties and things like that. And, and he encouraged me to
(16:46):
hang out with his friends, kids and people that were outside of
school. And I always had better
friendships with people outside of a school setting.
It was just, I think it was something about that institution
where you're all supposed to be the same and look the same and
have the same uniform and all that, but just just, it just
(17:07):
didn't sit well with me. And so I was much freer and able
to be part of the crowd when we weren't there.
And so a lot of my main friendships I didn't make at
school. And yeah, I think you get better
at it. You learn how to fit in better
as you get older, you learn the tricks of the trade and you
(17:28):
learn how to, you know, kind of slot in.
But when I was very young, I didn't really know what I was
trained to do. I was like, why is it different?
You know, there was no kind of language for any of that either
when I was young. You know, now people talk about
it, whereas I didn't really knowwhy they were kind of
(17:53):
standoffish with me here. What was the problem you know?
Yeah. So it was always easier outside
of school setting. So how do you think that that
experience, how do well, I want to say changed you, but I mean
you were who you were. So how did that experience
(18:16):
develop with you? Like what?
What were you learning from thatexperience that has has led to
who you are today? I think I'm quite insular.
I've always had sort of an inner, there was always kind of
an inner world going on because I was really good at keeping
(18:38):
myself company, right? You know, when you're a child,
when you're a kid that gets excluded from things, you just
learn how to hang out on your own.
Like you just just like, OK, so,you know, I'm grateful for that
now, but it was isolating as a young person.
But you do learn how to, you know, be in your own company and
(18:59):
it does make you resilient because you're not included in
the same way. But exclusion can be kind of
hard for me in terms of like, I think once you have that
experience, particularly young, it's hard to fitting in has
always been difficult for me. It's just, I don't know if then
(19:20):
it just becomes part of it, you know, it's becomes part of your
personality or something, or youjust don't slap in as easily.
I mean, I like we always joke with my eldest sister because
she would like, we'd go on a holiday and Kate would go walk
around and she'd come back with like 6 friends and if like we
should meet these people. She's just around, you know, I
(19:41):
was never that kid or she was always that kid, you know, who
had like hordes of people around.
So yeah, I think just you do learn to be quite self reliant.
Right. And there's sort of maybe a
little distrust of people in a way.
Like do you distrust that you'regoing to fit in or you, or
(20:06):
you're just more cautious with people because you don't know
what they're thinking or how they might react?
Yeah, and there's a difference between being yourself and
trying to fit in. Like when you're trying to fit
in, you're changing yourself. To be.
What you think the other people want?
(20:27):
That's really wise. And I got very good at doing
that. But then in my 20s, I was like,
but these people don't really know me because you're just
basically like trying to change your personality.
This circumstance, which everybody does to a certain
(20:48):
extent when they're going right.It's natural because we all want
to fit in, but. We had an extra hurdle with
that, right? Yeah, there's an extra amount of
performance and I think, you know, we were talking about that
recently. Like that gets tiring because
you're sort of and then you alsoquestion yourself of like, do
(21:08):
you know yourself well enough ifyou're constantly trying to
shape? Right.
To be who this crowd of people would like you to be, Yeah.
Yeah, that learning to make other people comfortable starts
early, and it's true. For.
I think it's start. I think it's true for everyone
to some degree. It's exceptionally true for
(21:28):
young women. And then you add the extra layer
of having a physical disability or just really probably anybody
with a disability. Yeah.
You know I. Mean we've got very good at at
noticing other people's discomfort.
Right, So maybe makes, I mean, Ialways think that there are
(21:50):
upsides to things right there. They're Silver Linings.
And I do wonder like that you develop a a certain empathy
because you are so attuned and that that empathy can become a
superpower, right? Absolutely.
And, and there's also a there's also a skill in making other
(22:13):
people comfortable with this. Oh yes, absolutely.
No, I learned a lot of ways to make people feel like it was OK,
you know, and, and those can be very useful, you know?
Absolutely, it's a skill. It Yeah.
Yeah, I always, I will. Not always.
But I've said for a long time now that empathy is my
superpower. But I had to learn to.
(22:38):
I had to learn to use it properly because it could also
be a terrible burden as well. Like I had to learn boundaries.
Absolutely, and also like I had to learn to be comfortable with
people's discomfort. Right.
Which I did not learn to like I was in my 30s.
(22:58):
Like I was like, if people were uncomfortable with it, I would
sort of almost like be making itmy mission for those people to
be comfortable with it. And I remember a friend of mine
being like, why is that your responsibility, right?
Like, why do you have, why do you have to make them
comfortable? Like they should work that out
themselves. Laura and I was like,
interesting. And because I did always feel
(23:21):
like what? Like I must make them feel
really comfortable now because it's me that's making them
uncomfortable. And she's like, is it you or is
it their own feeling? You know, right?
Now, are you getting that from more than one person or is it do
you just have one friend who's just like amazingly insightful
like that? No, I I do remember 1 friend
saying to me, why is that your responsibility?
(23:42):
And I was like interesting, but no other like in bigger crowds,
like I would be like, oh, you know, I should go over to that
person or something. And they'd be like, no, you
should not. Like, why are you?
Why are you making an OK for that?
You know, or like they would saysomething inappropriate to me
(24:03):
about disability or make commentand then I would be like almost
making them feel better about itafterwards because a lot of
people when they say in an appropriate thing, will realize
afterwards that that was inappropriate.
And then I would be like really comforting them about it's OK,
don't worry. And my way just like accept your
apology and move on. Like, no, no, I wasn't at all
(24:25):
uncomfortable. I was like, yes, I was, you
know, or it didn't hurt my feelings or, you know, whatever.
Yeah, yeah. It takes a lot of maturity to
get to a point where where someone apologizes instead of
me, like, oh, it's OK. You go like, yeah, that really,
that didn't feel good. That didn't feel good, but.
But thank you for saying that. And we'll just move on from
(24:46):
here, you know, kind of honesty.Didn't bother me at all.
Right. Yeah, that kind of honesty is
hard. Yeah, so making, making it my
mission for other people to be comfortable with this as a
mission that I have given up. I I handed him notice.
(25:09):
I was like, all right, I'm quitting this job.
Yeah, but I I did it for many, many years.
I love to hear that. I love that.
So it sounds like your family, you know, what you said earlier
about how your mom went to that meeting, They're like, yeah, you
don't expect much from this child.
And your family were like, yeah,we're not going to listen to
(25:31):
that advice. It sounds like they just
expected everything normally from you and maybe some more.
So you obviously did well in school.
You went to college. Well, tell us.
About that path school was tricky for me.
You know, I don't know if I'd goso far as to say I have regrets
(25:53):
about it, but I certainly didn'tget on as well as I now think I
would have been able to manage it.
Like, you know what I mean? I sort of was, was having a hard
time and wasn't really able to explain that or, you know, kind
(26:15):
of communicate to them that things were tricky for me.
And so it did affect my ability to get out and do well in school
in terms of grades and stuff. Because you were in a place
where you didn't feel like you fit.
Yeah, yeah. And anything that, you know what
(26:37):
that was difficult for me to do,I would just sort of either
escape it or, you know, saying how are we going to manage it?
You know, I would just take myself out of that situation,
right? And that's not a good recipe for
learning because I desperately wanted to blend in.
(27:06):
Like I was one of those childrenwho, if you could have offered
me, you know, a machine that just made me look exactly like
the other kids, I would have taken it.
So I did not want to stand out in any way, shape or form.
And that kind of translated as if I was struggling.
I didn't put my hand up and say,I don't understand this.
(27:29):
And that had a big effect on my learning because I just already
felt like I stood out so much that I was like, I am certainly
not going to put my head above this to be any more obvious to
you people. So, yeah, I have regrets about
that because now I think if I had, you know, had a different
(27:52):
situation, I would have said, I don't, I'm struggling with this
or I need more help or whatever.Yeah.
But it wasn't really possible for me at that time, so I sort
of just drifted kind of slightlyunder the radar.
Right. Right.
And that was the struggle and yeah, that it did affect my
(28:16):
grades. So when did poetry come into
your life? In secondary school, I, like I
said, I was quite self-containedand I wanted to, I always was
very interested in other people and, and how like English and
(28:40):
history were like my favorite subjects.
And I was just really interestedin the people and how they were
formed and why they would say these things and why they did.
You know, I was just very interested in in, I suppose,
words as a way of communicating how you felt and what was going
(29:02):
on inside. Because I didn't like there was
a lot of stuff happening internally and I didn't really
have any way to kind of communicate that to people.
So the poetry was probably a wayof being like, this is amazing
that people can sit down and communicate everything that
(29:25):
there's going on in there insideof them.
Did you have a particular teacher that that these things
into your hands or was it just part of the course of things?
Well, I suppose for poetry it was part of the course of
things. Strangely enough, I had, I had a
(29:45):
teacher who I was terrible at math and continued to be
terrible at math. Math is not my strong point and
I really struggled with that in school.
And I had a maths teacher who was just really kind and he gave
me, you know, extra tuition in school because I was struggling
(30:05):
with maths. And he, he was helping me with
my final exams. And he wouldn't take any, like,
payment or anything from my parents for, like, teaching,
giving me extra classes because he was like, no, Laura's my
student. And if she is struggling, then
(30:25):
that's my responsibility to get her through the exams, right?
So I wrote him a letter when I was at school just saying how
grateful I was and, you know, all this.
And I was sitting outside the exam hall and he came up to wish
us all luck. Yeah.
And he said to me, you know, being mad at bad at maths is
(30:50):
just being bad at maths. He was like, don't internalize
this, like being bad at everything.
He said you're you're a good writer and you have a lot of
other talents. And he's like, sometimes people
are just bad at things and they move on with their lives.
And I was, you know, I was like,OK.
He was like, don't take it as like a failure of personality or
(31:11):
Marsh or whatever. He was like, some people are
just bad at math. And I was like, interesting.
So he was very nice to me and very like, something else is
going on here and you're dealingwith a lot of things and don't
attach this and make it a big massive failing.
It's not. Wow, you're lucky to have a
teacher like that. Can we, can we go back and make
(31:32):
him like Teacher of the year? I write him I I send him a
Christmas card every year. So that's nice, yeah, because.
He really just made me feel like, you know what an exam is
just an exam, and there's a lot of things going on here.
You should draw a line under this afterwards and not dwell on
it. It's not a personal failing.
I was like, OK, great. So.
(31:54):
So that was nice. Yeah.
I think I just was very interested in people's inner
worlds. And that's where the poetry came
in. There was just a lot of stuff
going on and I was like, this isthe way you process it.
Right. Emotionally, you know?
Who's your favorite? Who are your favorite poets?
(32:16):
I loved Emily Dickinson when I was in school and to be honest,
I loved a lot of the female poets because I thought that
they were given a bad rap. I feel like you're not
appreciated as much as the male poets.
Right, right. There's.
A sense of injustice and that. Especially like of Emily
(32:38):
Dickinson's day. Like nowadays I think we see a
lot more of the female poets on equal standing, but back then it
was a lot harder. Her and like Sylvia Plath and
people who I just felt like justgot a bit of a bad rap so I
loved them in particular. But yeah, just it was I think a
way for me to kind of process the emotion of like just grow
(33:01):
just puberty and on top of everything with disability was,
which was just a lot of stuff, you know, I was like, this is
how you, you know, hand they handle it, you know.
So yeah, it was, I suppose, a tool for me to kind of manage my
own everything else going on. And so you went to college and
(33:26):
majored in What did you say? I went to Community College and
I studied radio and communications and then I got a
job in radio and I produced a radio program for about 3 1/2
(33:47):
years. Wow, what kind of weight
program? It was a sort of current affairs
and lifestyle kind of community radio, which I loved, was my
first job and I started work experience there when I was like
19. And then I went on to get the
job when I left and I loved thatjob.
It was one of my favorite jobs I've ever done.
(34:09):
That's cool. It was a kind of a we're all
A-Team getting this one thing done, which I loved.
You know, there wasn't any kind of like this bit is your job and
this bit is not my job. You know, it was none of that.
It was all like we have a commongoal to get this one show out
and it felt like being part of ateam.
And I expose it was the first time I'd really, I didn't really
(34:31):
play team sports or anything. So that was my first experience
of really being on a team when Iwas about 20.
And I really enjoyed the camaraderie of kind of like role
in this to get this one thing out out there.
So I really enjoyed that show. Where did that lead you?
(34:51):
I yeah, so I didn't go to get myundergraduate degree straight
out of college. And I kind of had a wish, I
suppose, to go and get my undergraduate degree.
So when I was old enough to playto be what they call a mature
(35:13):
student, which is an oxymoron. When I was old enough to apply
to be a mature student in university, I left and I went
and got my undergrads and then later my master's degree in
(35:33):
English less. Wow.
So yeah, I did that from about like 23 to 26.
And ice was really formative forme.
I was kind of a wish fulfillmentthat I would get there and like
in school, because my grades were not what I wanted them to
(35:55):
be, I kind of thought I was never going to be able to do
that. So it was really nice for me and
the kind of fulfilling A wish for myself that I was would be
able to. Get money, did you?
Did you go on to teach with that?
I got a job in in marketing because tended to kind of go to
(36:19):
marketing jobs and admin jobs and which is very often people
who study English end up in thatkind of role.
So yeah, he went down that route.
It overlapped with a lot of purewriting and press releases and
all that kind of it kind of tookme down that path rather than
teaching. So I did a lot of like press
(36:43):
officer jobs and marketing assistant jobs and things like
that. And do you continue to work or
did you retire? I, I suppose after I was
working, I go through COVID and everything, umm, I worked from
home and umm, so I've been out of it now for a couple of years,
but umm, just my health and stuff like that.
(37:05):
Umm, but I hope that, yeah, I'llbe able to go back Paris time.
A lot of the last few years havebeen kind of realizing that that
five day week structure is difficult for me to maintain.
And I had a really difficult time accepting this, you know,
(37:27):
because I suppose I believed like five days a week was what
people worked. And, you know, like this whole
idea, I suppose in the pandemic as well of this idea of like
people are rethinking the structure and about hybrid work
and what's the best, you know, Ibelieve that there was a
structure there and I was just supposed to be able to fit into
(37:48):
it. There's that fitting in again,
right? Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a
strong team with my life. And I'm kind of wrapping my head
around the fact that like, you have to, you have to get it to
fit your, your life and your, what suits you best and what
will be able to get the best outof you in terms of like
(38:08):
performance, you know? With the balances.
Yeah, so that's been a whole kind of strange.
Right. Letting go of normative things.
Right, right, right. Yeah.
How was the pandemic for you? What was that like?
Very strange. I don't know what it was like
there, but I there was a lot of like if you are a person whose
(38:33):
immune system is not strong or if you're like.
And I suddenly found myself having to put myself in category
that I had never really thought about it before.
And I suppose I had never reallythought of myself like that.
So it was a kind of a re jiggingof what?
(38:55):
Like I was more vulnerable and Ihad to kind of sit with that,
right, and realize that that wastrue.
Yeah, I'm still. Thought of myself that way and
right, you know, right to that point, I guess, right.
When fitting in is like starts to be deadly potentially, it's
(39:16):
like a whole other game. Exactly.
And when you are when fitting inis at the detriment of like
tiredness and. Personal well-being.
Personal energy and well-being it, yeah, you really have to
start to think about it in termsof like what you're, what's the
cost to you, right. Keep that up.
Yeah. And that's like a whole
(39:36):
conversation of itself, right? Yeah, the pandemic is.
Completely. Yeah, it did.
I think it changed a lot of people's.
Yeah. Relationship to that kind of a
thing. Sure.
When did you discover MBS? So my mom is a yoga teacher and
she always thought yoga when I was young.
(39:57):
And so I was always, you know, aware of it and I was always
part of my childhood, my life and I.
Done it on and off, you know, over the years gone into like
traditional yoga classes and participated on and off and
whatever. What type of yoga did she teach
(40:21):
do you mind me asking? Well, she what type of yoga did
she teach? That's a good question.
Trying to remember what it was. She went to the Corpallo Center
and she trained there and she always taught yoga classes when
(40:42):
I was growing up, so I was very aware of it.
But adaptive yoga is not really a thing or wasn't really a
thing. You know, they do like chair
yoga as a thing, but adaptive yoga the way that MBS does, it
was not really available in Ireland or I wasn't aware of it,
(41:07):
let's say. I mean, is it even now?
I mean, is it even a thing besides becoming?
Like a bit more, but it's not it's like mind body Solutions
does is very different than anything else that I had come
across before and so. What year did you come across
(41:27):
it? So I suppose about 2017 when I
went to university, I started getting panic attacks quite
regularly and I didn't really understand what was happening.
And I didn't really understand about like disassociation, which
(41:52):
is just like a thing I had learned to do to manage life
right Over the years. What I've learned about this
association is that if you choose it as a, as a way of
managing, you know, people do and they kind of can switch
something off, that's OK. But when it starts to choose you
(42:12):
right, it's not good for your mental health.
Like when you can't turn it off.Right.
But do don't you think we fall into that like do you think
anybody's like, OK, I'm going todisassociate.
Don't you think it just? No, but I think.
Like a little at a time. You learn like, oh, this feels
better. And so, yeah.
(42:33):
As in, that's what I mean you. Just do it and then and then it
becomes just how you do things and you don't even know you're
doing it. Yeah.
And I think like, that's what I mean by choosing.
And I mean like, people can disassociate in lots of ways and
they can like, you know, binge watch or they can do whatever.
(42:54):
And that's a, you know, a way that they're choosing to kind of
zone out from whatever is going on and lots.
OK. But it started to be a thing
that I couldn't turn off right, you know, And I could feel a
kind of a lifting out happening to my body and it started to
(43:17):
really freak me out. And I was thinking, oh,
something's really wrong, you know, And I thought like I was
losing my mind and things like that.
I thought I'm definitely having some sort of like breakdown or
something because it was just happening without my
participation. And so I said to my mom one day
(43:41):
I'm leaving. I feel like I'm leaving my body
a lot. And she was like, what do you
mean? And I was like, I just feel like
I can't stop it. And it's really starting to
scare me. And I was really getting
worried. And one day I was listening to
Krista Tippett's On Being and Matthew Sanford, who is the
(44:05):
creature or if you started MBS, was on it.
And I just have never heard any human being say the things that
he said, right, in my entire life.
Things like having the right to live in your own body and things
like, you know, just about taking up that space and, and I
(44:28):
had never heard a disabled person talk like that.
Right. And I was like, oh, this is
interesting. And I remember being in my mom's
house and just going out to the kitchen and saying to her, I
think I have to go there. Yeah.
And like that I had done, you know, a few yoga classes and,
(44:49):
you know, whatever over the years.
This was like going to a yoga training and my mother and the
polite way was kind of like, Nora, do you think this is
maybe, you know, a bit much? I was like, no, I think this is
a great. This is what I need.
You just recognized. It I had gone from like one girl
(45:12):
class every kind of few months to like I think I'll just go to
the whole training and she was abit like sounds a little bit
extreme, but OK. And you know, NBS wasn't online
then or any of that the way thatit is now.
So there was no way of participating like that unless I
(45:34):
when thing right so. So what year was that you you
decided to go in? 2018. 2018, yeah.
So you got on a plane and you went to Minneapolis.
This is going to, I don't know what's going to happen and
because my family was a bit like, Are you sure about this?
(45:54):
I mean, they took you to Hungary, so why not?
Many no, no. But they took me to Hungary as a
child. Like I was like, I think I'm
just going to go off to America,like on my own, whatever.
My mom turned to me and her and her partner were like, I think
maybe we will go with you. And the first time I went, they
did go with me because I think they were like, we have no idea
(46:15):
where you're going or who these people are or if you're going to
even be able to sustain a training like from 10:00 in the
morning until whatever. You know, like my mom was like,
maybe you might need somebody there to just help you out.
And I was. Like trainings are, trainings
are pretty rigorous too. They're.
Yeah, it was rigorous. And so I think I think my mother
(46:38):
was a bit like this might be a bit of a jump, but I was
determined to go. I was like, no, I just heard his
voice and I thought, OK, I got Ihave to go figure out what this.
Is I got to go meet this guy? Yeah.
I got to go meet this guy. I got on the plane and they had
a massive snowstorm that year. And so first of all, they said
(46:58):
we weren't going to be able to go.
And you had to fly from Ireland to Chicago and then from Chicago
to Minneapolis because there wasn't a direct flight.
Right. So it like snow is piling up
around me and sat on the runway and the the air Hostess was
like, I don't know if this is going to take off.
(47:20):
And I just thought if I've come all the way and they're going to
tell me to go home. But we made it and yeah, it was
like, I mean, it has really changed my life a lot.
And I think in some ways, obviously I met both of you that
through through MBS. But also even just talking about
(47:43):
living in a body that's not, youknow, like everyone else or, you
know, traditional is something Inever really did up until that
point. You know, I didn't really, I had
a very sort of internal experience that I didn't really
investigate. So it's been interesting to just
(48:07):
kind of go, what would it be like to see what this is?
To talk about this. Talk about it and and experience
it in a different way, you know?Well, also just, I had the same
experience, you know, I had. I actually was investigating
trauma and listening to Bessel Vanderkulk's interview with
(48:31):
Christa Christa Tippett, at the end of which she says to Bessel,
have you ever heard of Matthew Sanford?
And at that point, he did not. And so she tells Matthew's
story. And so she's really who
introduced Matthew and Bessel. I didn't know that I.
Didn't know that. So then I was like, well, yeah,
go back and listen to Vessel's interview with her.
(48:52):
So then I was like, wow, he sounds interesting.
So then I listened to her interview with Matthew.
And then I was like, I need to know more about this person.
And that's how I found MBS. Because, you know, that was that
was at the very beginning of COVID.
I had just become a full time wheelchair user.
(49:14):
I couldn't go anywhere anyways, right?
I had lost all of my traditionalsupports of physical therapy and
Pilates and, you know, all the people that were my life that
make me able to function, you know, vaporized during COVID.
And so finding Matthew and and this group was just
(49:38):
transformative for me. Well, it's funny because people
say to me when I tell them that I went or when anyone asks me
about it, I think they were like, oh, you wanted to go and
do yoga or you were, you know, doing it like a, the way people
do this physiotherapy or you were, you know, doing it for
(50:02):
like some exercise purposes. And I was like, no, I got on a
plane, right? To.
Literally go and ask Matthew howthe hell I was gonna continue to
live in this body. Right.
And manage it in my mind. And he very annoyingly was like,
you have to figure that out in your own.
And I was like, and he's continued to tell me that over
(50:27):
Yeah, you're right. I do have to figure it out on my
own. How very annoying.
But I was literally like, I'll go and ask him and he'll give me
some answers, then I'll go home.And that's the way my mind,
like, it's been an experience oflike, I have a very empirical
kind of mind. Like my mind will figure this
puzzle out. And you can't do that when
(50:49):
you're disabled. Like it's just not going to
work. There's no formula.
There's no like, you know, sing that you can learn off that's
going to help you get through it.
It's just not it's just not, youknow, there's no figuring it
out, which is what I've learned.And I think it really helped me
be at peace with that. Not that I'm at peace with it
(51:11):
all the time, but like I now know no matter how many books I
read or things I learn, you justhave to live it right?
There's no, there's no sort of magic.
Yeah, there's no magic answer. There's.
Just there is no magic. There's only way overs through
right? It's the, and isn't that like
the true yoga? Like I, I try to explain to
(51:33):
people, you know, I have lots offriends that are into yoga of
various kinds and they're all putting on their little stretchy
cute outfits and going to placesand sweating and being on mats
and, and then, and they love it and that's great.
And then and so that like they can't really understand what I'm
talking about when I'm talking about yoga.
And the thing that I love about about Matthew and his program is
(51:57):
that I feel like that's the trueyoga because so much of it is
about the internal experience. It's about the awareness and the
connection, and it's an intellectual.
It's about the talks about the subtle body.
He talks about the movement of prana, he talks about asana and,
(52:25):
and what that means and how important that is.
And it's, you know, most people don't even think about it or
consider it and it and become spiritual practically, at least
for me, that's how it feels. But it but then it's practical
at the same time. It's like it's not just some
like esoteric thing. It's it's like, no, this is
(52:47):
real. This is what it is.
Yeah, and that's what I mean, people were like, oh, you're
going to go into yoga and, you know, that's really good for
your, I don't know, core strengthen your posture.
And it is, by the way, it's verygood.
Compliment me on my posture so much more now.
I'm like, yeah, but that's not the way why I do it.
(53:11):
Like, I do it for my peace, for a sense of kind of resting in
this body in a way that I just did not do before.
I think I was just desperate forsomeone to tell me like how do I
make peace with this? Right.
And how do I land in this spot? Like, is it always going to feel
(53:32):
like something's wrong? Right.
And I think you just helps me tobe like, no, you just that's
what happens when your mind takes over and goes I will solve
you. I will solve this problem that
is disability. Right, that's actually really
insightful, this idea that this experience, my life is something
(53:54):
to solve for and to to step backand say, well, but is it is or
is my life an experience that just needs to be fully
integrated? And how do I find peace in this
experience? Because the the pressure to
(54:16):
solve is what creates anxiety 100% because all three of us, we
don't have problems that can be solved.
It's not solvable. You know, it's like that Cohen.
You know, this is like you can literally drive yourself crazy
trying to come up with solutionshere and finding a path to peace
(54:40):
through the body. Is it, it sounds like it
wouldn't be possible because thebody is the problem, right?
So it's such an interesting idea, a counterintuitive idea to
say, OK, but let's start with the body.
(55:00):
And by coming back to the body and listening to the body and
feeling it and integrating with it again, you can find peace
that that wisdom in the body is such a powerful idea.
Yeah. And I think I was, I was really
naive and I thought like, oh, I'm going to learn my way out of
(55:24):
it. Like I, I, which is always my,
you know, my default things likeI can learn this.
Like I, you know, I'll go to theyoga training and I'll sit there
with my notepad and pen and people will explain to me, you
know, how to puzzle my way out of this disabled problem.
(55:45):
Like really I may. Not get math, but I'll be able
to get yoga for sure. My thing was surely someone
teach me some things and I the only thing that I learned is
that nothing can teach me out ofthis.
Like I can't like I can't sidestep the way out by like
(56:08):
being like. But if I work really hard, I
also think it was same manipulative like and now I
thought my mind was going to teach my body some things,
right? Why?
Did that not happen? No.
My body was just sitting in the wings going, oh, you just can't
wait until what I have to teach you?
(56:28):
My favorite thing that he says in the beginning of class is
feel more rather than less. Every single time I'm like, oh,
here we go. Boss Giant.
Is that really important? I'm like, I spent years
perfecting leaving this, years of like trying to disassociate.
(56:53):
I was just like, well, I'm so good at it, Mash.
I mean, he's like, yeah, I know.So that was disappointing.
I was like, OK, but it has been kind of, I guess just mind
blowing in terms of like how much the body actually knows.
Like I actually really didn't know that.
(57:13):
I really didn't. I was very like naive about the
wisdom that actually is there ifI just got out of my own way for
five. Minutes.
Can you put any of that in words?
Like what would you say your biggest take away has been so
far in terms of that wisdom I. Think one of the biggest
takeaways is that I really believed that if I was to really
(57:36):
live in this body, like if I wasto really go in there and hang
out, I was going to find all theproblems and I was going to be
really uncomfortable. And that the only way to to get
through it was to leave. A guy thought, well, yeah, my
escape routes are my only answer, you know?
(57:59):
And what I learned is like, there is a resting place in here
and there is like, actually somecalm and I just was looking in
the wrong place for that, you know, like I really did.
It was like, don't send me in there to like, be in my own
body. Like, that sounds horrifying.
(58:20):
Like it just, I was so horrifiedwas like, no, that seems really
like a bad idea. I did yoga when I came home.
I got a yoga teacher and she used to come to my house and do
it with me for a little bit after I did the training.
And I told her that I don't likemeditation and I don't want to
do that. Like I don't want to be still in
(58:42):
it. And she's like, OK, OK, well
we'll do like 2 minutes and we'll see, you know what it's
like. And I was like, OK, And now it's
like one of my favorite things because I just thought, oh, that
level. I just couldn't sit in that.
Like it'd be so uncomfortable. For me to just.
Be in it. Right, right.
Because I, you know, the association when you're disabled
(59:07):
is that like you said, that's where all the problems come
from. So I was like, why would I want
to hang out? There, right, right.
Seems like a bad idea. Has it gone well so far?
I don't know why I'd want to go do that.
Like, why would I want to hang out in that place, right?
(59:27):
And actually, when I do do that,then there is a sort of a rest.
There's not as much drama if I just kind of go, OK, you know,
just be here for a minute, see what happens, you know.
So I just, I, when I, when I diddo that, I was like, oh, there's
(59:48):
actually a sense of peace there and comfort to live, be at home
in your own body in a way that Ijust really fundamentally didn't
believe disabled people could do.
Like I really didn't. Right.
I was like, that's for able bodied people who don't have any
problems with their body. And Matt was like, no, no, no,
(01:00:13):
that's not. That's not I would close.
I was like, OK. Wonderful.
This has been a wonderful conversation.
I really appreciate Laura, you opening up and sharing a lot.
I know that it's not intuitive for you.
I know it's a hard thing right around it.
Yeah, you did great. You did great.
(01:00:35):
Hey, before we go, we want to tell you about a very special
organization that brought the three of us together five years
ago. It's called Mind Body Solutions.
They offer live online adaptive yoga classes, a YouTube library,
unique student only gathering spaces, and special live events
hosted by founder Matthew Sanford.
There's no feat to participate and no yoga experience required.
(01:00:59):
At MBS, you can connect with others who have disabilities and
reconnect with yourself. That's their mission, to help
people live more vibrantly and more connected, both in mind and
body. MBS has helped each of us
discover new ways to live, work,move, and simply be in the
bodies we have. And they can help you too.
(01:01:20):
So if you're listening and living with a disability or know
someone who is, check out their website at
mindbodysolutions.org. It's free, it's hopeful, and
there's room for everybody. Thatsmindbodysolutions.org.
You can also connect with them through our Looking up
(01:01:41):
fromhere.com resources web page.Thank you.
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