July 15, 2025 • 45 mins
The Bat-Signal lit up the sky because one Jersey kid had a vision: bring a darker, more human Batman to the big screen. In this episode, Michael Uslan—the executive producer behind every Batman film since 1989—shares how his childhood love for comics sparked a cinematic revolution.
Uslan takes us from Ocean Township to Hollywood, revealing how a decade of rejection, a strategic law degree, and lunch with Tim Burton helped erase the campy legacy of the 1960s Batman. Hear behind-the-scenes stories about Jack Nicholson’s Joker, the uproar over Michael Keaton’s casting, and the marketing blitz that created full-blown “Batmania.”
Now chairman of the New Jersey Film Commission and with his memoir headed to Broadway, Uslan reflects on Batman’s lasting legacy—and the heartwarming moment a group of West Point cadets turned his story into their own battle cry.
"The Boy Who Loved Batman" book
New Jersey Motion Picture and Television Commission
New Jersey Hall of Fame Class of 2025!
The Dark Knight is #28 on the New York Times Best Movies List
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi Rachel, hey Jeanette, so we just got off a
epic interview.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Super Michael Uslan is the executive producer of all
the Batman films since 1989.
But he is more than just that.
We have read his book the Boywho Loved.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Batman.
He is from New Jersey and hehas a lot of Jersey pride and he
talks about his journey frombeing a kid really interested in
comic books and his passion.
Once he discovered Batman beinga human, it really resonated
with him.
It is an incredible story.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
He explains how, even you know, with all the ups and
downs and tons of rejections,that he just kept persevering
and also relying on hiscommunity, his family, his
friends, and made his dreamshappen.
And now his story is the basisof a Broadway show.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Coming to.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Broadway next year.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
You say in the interview that you know he's an
extraordinary human and he triesto push back on it, but I do
think he's quite extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yes, we're going to call it, he's a superhuman.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
There needs to be a comic book about him.
Yeah, so with that, pleaseenjoy this interview with
Michael Uslan.
Welcome, michael Uslan.
It's so nice to have you onLost in Jersey.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Thank you.
If there's any place in theworld I'd prefer to be lost in,
it is definitely New Jersey.
Good to hear we were lost herefor a while, but I think we're
slowly acclimating and becomingfound, yeah, after 20 years.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, the worst loss I was ever in New Jersey was
just after I got my driver'slicense at age 17.
I was approaching EatontownCircle and couldn't figure out
how to get off of it, so I wasjust going around in circles for
the better part of the nextyear.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
But other than that I've done pretty well.
That's like the Europeanvacation, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
You have navigated New Jersey very well and your
whole entire career very well.
I want to tell people how I gotintroduced to you, and it was
at the New Jersey Film Expo.
It was an incredible firstrollout for the expo.
I was really very impressed.
I'm sure you were very happywith what you saw as well.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
It was amazing.
What's happening in New Jerseynow in terms of motion picture
and television and digitalproduction is, I think, the
number one success story in theentire industry.
At this point In Los Angelesthe industry is in a state of
depression I mean depression buthere we are booming and every
year significantly tops the yearbefore.
(02:34):
I think over the next few yearsHollywood will become more a
state of mind than a physicalplace, and everybody in LA is
talking about New Jerseybecoming Hollywood East.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I remind them that Hollywood is simply New Jersey.
West of Hollywood, you keepfinding your connections back to
New York.
You know, it's just everybodyseems to be from the East side
that you were connecting withwhen you were there too.
So I love that it all comesback to the East coast.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah, it really is true in so many ways.
When I first started in theindustry, it was hard to find
people in LA who were nativeborn.
They were mostly transplantsand largely from New York, new
Jersey area.
That's changed now and there'snew generations that are
homegrown LA and unfortunatelynow, due to lack of jobs and
opportunities, are looking tosee what other states they could
(03:32):
come to.
So I think one of the thingsthat we're most proud of is,
unlike some states, we billourselves as the most diverse
state in the union and we wantdiversity.
We want people to come here andbe a part of this with us, and
we even offer a New Jerseyspecial tax incentive diversity
bonus, which is an additional 5%if your cast and crew meet our
(03:57):
requirements for diversity, andthat includes male, female.
So we're very proud of who weare and that's one of the
reasons we're being sosuccessful?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
First, can you tell people what your role is with
the New Jersey Commission?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah, I'm chairman of the New Jersey Film Commission
and I've been a member of theFilm Commission since, I believe
, 1984.
So I've been around the block alittle bit with this over many
governors and Governor Murphy,in a bipartisan effort, has
really done a tremendous job ingiving us every tool we need to
attract filmmaking to New Jersey, as evidenced very, very
plainly by the groundbreakingrecently at Fort Monmouth of
(04:34):
Netflix Studios.
It's going to be followed soonin Bayonne.
We have under constructionLionsgate Studios in Newark and
things are happening and theFilm Commission does an
extraordinary job working undereconomic development authority
and the unions are partners inthis and everybody's working
real hard to make it work andwhat is generating all of this?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I know that tax credits are a big generator of
films coming in.
Is this a burden on the averageNew Jersey citizen and taxes or
anything like that?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
No, it's not because the return on investment is huge
, and shortly they'll be comingout with some facts and figures
about how tremendous the returnon investment has been.
It's totally about economicdevelopment, job training and
jobs.
That's the whole thing.
And when you get to takeMeadowlands Arena, which has
gone through many names, thatwas just sitting there like a
(05:29):
latke doing nothing after thesports teams left and within 30
days of the tax credit we haveturned it into TV studios and I
think we're up to the seventh,or now maybe the eighth, TV
series shooting there and it'san absolute hub of economic
development and jobs and that'swhat this whole thing is about.
(05:50):
And it's having a greatpositive economic impact on the
state.
A bonus is it increases ourtourism because it improves and
increases New Jersey's imagearound the world Around the
world.
When I first started in thisbusiness, when executives or
talent heard I was from NewJersey, I had to listen to every
Tonight Show in New Jersey.
(06:10):
But the turning point being theSopranos and the Seaside Heights
Beach House for music, all of asudden Jersey became cool and
also we started to get Sopranoslike respect.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So we needed a mafia to make us look cool.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
I think what we need is Bruce Springsteen.
I think it starts and stopsright there.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
It is true.
Well, you know, that's thething about.
What's really interesting aboutyour story is that you are from
New Jersey and you have hadsuch incredible success.
Rachel and I think you werenominated for New Jersey Hall of
Fame recently.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I'm like who better Thank you To start, though where
you're, how you grew up,because, reading your book, we
really just enjoyed hearing,first of all, your infectious
joy come through the page, butyour voice your voice when you
talk about your family, and onething that really stuck out to
me is how you said that you grewup with a dad that loved his
(07:10):
job, loved, loved, loved andwoke up every day and loved
going to work as a Mason, andI'd love to just hear a little
bit more about your family.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Yeah, my dad was extraordinary.
He had to drop out of day onhigh school when he was 16 to go
to work to help his familysurvive the Depression.
And my dad, as a Mason, was anold world artist.
He was a craftsman and I wish Iwould take you on a tour down
the shore of the homes he built,the fireplaces, the chimneys
(07:39):
that are still standing today,that are so magnificent.
And he worked six days a weekfrom age 16 to age 80.
Loved what he did.
He worked on days like today.
You know 98 degrees New Jerseyhumidity through the roof.
He worked in the snow, butevery morning before dawn he got
out of bed.
Six days a week, big smile onhis face let's get the day
(08:00):
started, can't wait to get towork.
And my older brother, paul, andI, growing up in that house how
can you not want that foryourself?
How could you not want to sayon a rainy Monday morning oh boy
, I can't wait to get to workand that's the magic of this
whole thing?
So my dad had my brother and Iwork construction for him during
summers in high school.
It was terrible.
We were tarring foundations andcarrying bricks and cement.
(08:23):
It was awful, but that was mydawning and when my dad told me
okay, go out and find your ownbricks and stones.
And, based on my upbringing asthis geeky kid, I knew early on
it had to be comic books andsuperheroes and cartoons and
movies and TV.
That's where my heart was,that's where my head was.
(08:45):
But what do you do when you'rea blue collar kid from Jersey?
You don't come from money andcan't buy your way into
Hollywood.
You have no relatives inHollywood, you know nobody in
Hollywood.
So for me it was always aquestion how do you make your
dreams come true?
And that's what I had todiscover on my own.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And can you, can your story?
It has so many intricatedetails that are interesting.
How can you summarize for ourlisteners your journey into
making your dreams come true?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Support system.
So I was this strange kid.
I mean, my brother was asuperstar in every sport he ever
did and I could barely swing abat.
So I escaped into a world ofsuperheroes and comic books.
So I escaped into a world ofsuperheroes and comic books and
I would shovel snow in thewinters, mow lawns in the
summers, search through garbagecans for bottles that I could
(09:34):
return for two cents each orfive cents, check the couch in
the car behind the seat forchange.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, there was always stuff there.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
That was what I had to do and my parents were
completely supportive of me forthat and they gave up so much of
their time which they didn'thave a lot of because they
worked so much to making sure Iwas making the most out of my
passion in life.
It started with that.
It was my friends.
It was my teachers.
I had some teachers inparticular at Ocean Township
(10:03):
High School that made all thedifference in the world in my
life.
I had two English teachers, my7th and 8th grade English
teachers.
They happened to besisters-in-law, and it was my
7th grade English teacher, mrsStiller, who told me one day
Michael, your writing is special, you are very creative and
you're a very good creativewriter and you could be doing
something when you're an adultwith this creativity.
(10:26):
She then turned me over intoeighth grade to her
sister-in-law, mrs Friedman, whowas Genghis Khan disguised as
an English teacher.
Mrs Friedman was as tough andstrict as you could imagine and
first day of class she asked meto stay extra and she said Mrs
Stiller, showed me yourportfolio from seventh grade of
all your writing.
(10:46):
She said I think she's right.
I think you could become awriter.
I think you have the creativeability to do that.
But anyone can come up withcreative ideas, but very, very
few spend the time or make theeffort to master the craft of
writing.
So this year I am going to holdyou to a higher standard than
anyone else.
You are not going to leave thisclass until you've diagrammed a
(11:09):
thousand sentences andunderstand structure and your
vocabulary and what you're goingto read and why.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
It sounds almost like a punishment.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
If you don't believe that there is such a thing as
superheroes in real life, you'venever met a great teacher, kind
of.
The end of the story was whenour first Batman movie came out
in 1989.
I love this.
I tracked Mrs Stiller and MrsFriedman down and I sent a
limousine for them and I broughtthem to our premiere in New
York and I got to speak for 10minutes before the movie started
(11:44):
and I told the story about themand I said if it wasn't for
these two ladies, there would beno Batman movie tonight.
There would not.
And I had them stand up andthey got a standing ovation and
that to me was like my seventh,eighth grade fantasy come true.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
They must have been overwhelmed.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
It was a great moment for me.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
That's something that Rachel and I were talking about
how much you thank everyonethat you have that has helped
you along the way.
There's teamwork, spirit, thatyou have a kindness and a
thoughtfulness for everyone, andit doesn't matter if you're
(12:23):
Jewish, italian, irish, whateverFamily.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
First, everything in this state starts with family.
Second thing is what do I needto do?
What do I need to sacrifice togive our kids a good education?
And third, food.
But we won't deal with thatright now, but it's a common
link for me and all my friends,my cousins, everybody.
It's a common link in thisstate and the more people I meet
, whether it's kids or adults,the more it proves true.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I like how you say that, because I think that when
you start off, I couldn'tbelieve, when I start your book,
how you're talking about yourelementary school friends and
sharing pictures of them todiscuss their relationships, and
how formative friendships are,not just parents and relatives,
but also these friendships thatlasted.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
In my journey through life, I've run across the
majority of people who did nothave a happy high school
experience and were glad toescape it.
In my community down the shore,Ocean Township, me and my
friends were together fromkindergarten through grade 12.
So we were in Little Leaguetogether, Cub Scouts together.
We knew each other'sgrandparents.
We have a warm and fuzzy bondthat cannot be broken.
(13:32):
That is really quite unique andamazing.
It was also an extremelyintelligent, very competitive
class all the way through.
And when Ocean Township HighSchool recently started its
School Hall of Fame, Out of Ibelieve, the first 10 people who
were inducted into the school'sHall of Fame, four were from my
(13:54):
class.
That's extraordinary Somethingabout that year the water no
it's not me, it's everybody,it's that old gang of mine.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
The thing that's interesting also is that, as you
pointed out, you had awonderful childhood, the way
that you depict it but yet yougravitated towards Batman, and
specifically in the comic booksthat you were reading at the
time, because of his back, asyou, you know, as you ventured
(14:29):
through your career of, you know, going to DC comics, eventually
working and writing some of theDC comic books and then moving
your way to getting the rightsto the Batman and trying to
bring that, that darker side.
I want to, I want you toelaborate on that journey, but I
also I'm curious if what was itthat drew you to the darker
character?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Okay, that's a fair question.
So when I was really little, mymom said I learned to read from
comic books before I was fouryears old and my older brother,
Paul, had been bringing theminto the house and there was a
longstanding, decades-oldtradition that many boys got
their first exposure to comicbooks in barbershops, where they
would have old comic booksthrown across a broken card
(15:11):
table as you were waiting to getyour haircut.
It was certainly true for me.
In Asbury Park at Red'sBarbershop when I was really
young, I think I started withthings like Casper and Richie
Rich.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Casper and Richie Rich.
I just wanted toie Look.
I just wanted to let you knowbefore not to interrupt you that
I have all of these comics andI have a ton of Richie Riches.
Hold them up, jeanette, holdthem up a little higher, I have
all these, can you not see them?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
The other way.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
I have a lot of Archie.
We have to talk to you aboutArchie, but I'll wait on that.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
These are all my husband's comic books from when
he was a kid.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Well, put them back in their plastic bags so you'll
be able to send your grandkidsthrough college someday.
That was the beginning.
And then Superman was the onlycomic book superhero in the
media.
He was on TV when I was growingup.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
The Adventures of Superman.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Then, when I got a little bit older, like a more
mature, sophisticated six orseven, I gravitated to Batman
and there were distinct reasonswhy.
First and foremost is the factthat, unlike Superman or Wonder
Woman, he was human and that wasit for me.
I really, really identifiedwith him because he had no
superpowers.
(16:22):
It was up to his brains andwhatever he could train his body
to do and his smarts, like withhis utility belt.
Second is the car.
Oh my God, the car.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
The car is amazing.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Everybody Amazing.
Third, he had the scariest butmost primal murdered before his
eyes in the street andsacrificing his childhood at
that moment and swearing, takinga vow that he would spend the
rest of his life walking throughhell to get the guy who did
(16:55):
this, get all the bad guys.
I mean, that's powerful stuff.
And the final element of it issomething Stan Lee once
explained to me.
Stan was the co-creator of thepantheon of Marvel superheroes
and he was originally my mentorand then became my friend, my
creative associate.
Ultimately, I helped producehis memorial when he passed at
(17:16):
Grauman's Chinese Theater inHollywood and Stan said to me I
have a theory aboutsupervillains.
He said supervillains areequally important as superheroes
because ultimately, it is thesuper villain who defines the
superhero.
Now, if you accept that, whichI do, batman has the greatest
rogues gallery of super villainsin history, and that was the
(17:39):
other thing that made it sointeresting that every week you
wanted to go back and see whowas up next and what was going
to happen next.
So that was all to happen next.
So that was all part of it.
The darkness started with thecreation of Batman in 1939 by
its creators, bill Finger andBob Kane, and I am one of.
I don't know probably you cancount them on one hand the
(18:00):
number of people left standingwho met and talked with both of
Batman's creators, and I heardstraight from Bill Finger's
mouth why they created it, howthey created it, what their
vision was, and it was as acreature of the night, a dark
night, fighting these deeplydisturbed villains from the
shadows.
And I knew that.
(18:21):
How can you respect a characterand not respect the integrity
of his creators?
So I listened to that and thathad an impact on me and
realizing that that was theirtrue Batman, that became my true
Batman.
So when the 1966 TV show cameon the air, I think apoplectic
is the best word to describe myreaction to it, it's just not.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
There were two comical in some ways.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Comical campy silly.
The ones that did me in werethe ones where Batman puts on
swimming trunks over his batuniform and has a surfing
contest against the Joker.
When Batman ran around GothamCity holding a bomb where the
fuse was going down, not knowingwhere to throw it safely.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Poor Batman.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
And that's why I then made my vow, like young Bruce
Wayne once made his vow, andthat set me on my path and you
went to law school and beforeyou got, your ultimate goal is
that the Jewish mother of plan Byou better have a plan B.
And C and D?
Yes, absolutely.
Well, it's more complicatedthan that.
(19:30):
I graduated with a degree inhistory.
All right, what do you do withthat in retrospect?
I mean, I loved it and I lovemy professors, but what do you
do with it?
The Vietnam War was still on andif I continued going to school
such as law school, I couldcontinue to get my 2S student
deferment.
I had just gotten married.
Law school I could continue toget my 2S student deferment.
I had just gotten married.
My wife was starting nursingschool, so it made sense for me
(19:50):
to stay there and continue on.
Begrudgingly, I went to lawschool, and that was only after
I had mailed out 372 resumes tomovie and TV companies
attempting to get a creative jobin the industry.
Of the 372 resumes sent out, Igot two job offers.
One was to go to work for atalent agency in New York and
(20:15):
work in their mailroom for $95 aweek.
The other was move to LA andwork for a producer as a
production assistant and go forcoffee for a year or two for $95
a week.
And I did not believe, nor didmy new wife, that we could
comfortably live together on $95a week in either New York or LA
(20:35):
, and so therefore plan B, whichmy parents and her parents were
very happy about.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
She wasn't upset either, but I really resented
having to be there, but it's sogreat that you can see how that
actually helped along the waywith negotiating and reading
contracts and fine print, and no, I'm not sure if you believe
this.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
If I let 21-year-old Michael out right now, he would
kick me in the teeth.
But I couldn't haveaccomplished what I accomplished
without having had thatbackground.
That is what opened the doorfor me to Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
I was somewhere in the middle, at that part in your
book, and I was talking to mysons who are, you know, new in
college and trying to figure outwhat they want to do, and I was
like, you know, michael went tolaw school and that's what got
all those Batman movies you knowmake.
It wasn't what he intended, butyou never know how you're going
to use your degree.
Can you elaborate on how thatjourney led to you, you know,
(21:33):
acquiring the rights and thingslike that?
Speaker 3 (21:35):
You need a through line, you need a game plan.
So I wanted to get into thecreative side of movies and TV
and I was shut down just tryingto send out resumes cold when.
I didn't know anybody or had noexperience, so the plan was all
right.
So if I go to law school, takeevery course I can find having
(21:55):
anything to do withentertainment or the media, then
get a legal, business,financial kind of job in the
industry.
That would let me network likemad, learn how you finance and
produce movies and how they getdistributed.
Then I would have a shot atsneaking in a back window onto
the creative side or onto theproducing side.
(22:17):
And it worked.
I mean, it actually worked.
But going in, my game plan wasI will be a lawyer for a maximum
of four years, just as if it'slike graduate school.
At the end of four years I willquit and I will either at that
time be writing and or producingmovies, cartoons and television
(22:37):
, or I will be delivering pizzasfor Domino's.
But I will not let myself betrapped being a lawyer for the
rest of my life doing people'swills and divorces, be trapped
being a lawyer for the rest ofmy life doing people's wills and
divorces.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I will not do that, and I know that you talk about
how it took you 10 years ofrejection before you got the
first Batman in 1989, greenlitand made and done.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And both of us remember that film.
Yes, Like I remember getting soexcited to go see it in the
theater.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
It was groundbreaking .
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Everybody was talking about it and to look back at it
now and think there weren'tsuperhero movies, it was a first
of its kind.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
And there was no CGI, there were no computer effects
back then, there was no internet, there was no social media.
And yet our first Batman moviewas, in my opinion, the best
ever marketed movie, because inthat magical summer of 89,
billboards, posters, started toappear all over without the name
(23:37):
of the movie on it.
Just the symbol and it said June23rd and it was electric the
Batmania I don't know how todescribe it.
You couldn't walk through TimesSquare, not 20 steps, without
seeing someone in a Batman hator a Batman t-shirt.
Who was behind that marketing?
(24:00):
That was genius.
Clothing manufacturing industryran out of black cloth material
because so many Batman t-shirtswere printed up and they
couldn't keep up with the demand.
People were sadly breaking intobus stops to grab the posters
and, one of the weirdest thingsthat happened, the theaters were
(24:20):
reporting, in that they weregetting flooded with calls every
day.
People would say what movie isshowing the Batman trailer and
these people would go buy aticket to that movie, watch the
trailer for two minutes and thenleave.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Just to see the trailer.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
But there was a dark side to it all, and the dark
side came when the announcementwent out of Michael Keaton
playing Batman.
My God, I thought they weregoing to surround Warner
Brothers with pitchforks andtorches right out of
Frankenstein and this is withoutsocial media.
It was everywhere.
The front page of the WallStreet Journal did like an
(24:56):
editorial about Batman beingcampy again, with Michael Keaton
, who was Mr Mom and a stand-upcomedian, playing Batman in a
movie directed by the guy whojust directed Pee-Wee's.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Big Adventure, I know .
Can you talk about that?
I love the stories that youtell about that time when you
decided to go with Tim Burtonand where he was in his career
and him telling you that hewanted to use Michael Keaton and
also the Jack Nicholson story.
Can you tell that story?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Well, first of all, let me, just as a Jersey guy, I
got to mention this.
Three of Batman's supervillainsin history grew up on the
Jersey Shore, Did they?
For those of you who don't know, from Asbury Park and Bradley
Beach, Cesar Romero went toAsbury Park High School who
played the Joker on the TVseries.
I still haven't forgiven himfor not shaving off his mustache
(25:44):
, but that's another story.
Jack Nicholson out of Neptunewent Favorite son.
There's some kind of bat magicgoing on in the Jersey store.
Maybe it's the.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Jersey devil lore that seeped in Fair yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I love that, rachel, that's great.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
So it was Memorial Weekend, 1980.
I get on the bus coming back toNew Jersey and I open the New
York Post to the movie section.
That holiday weekend two bigmovies were opening up the
Empire Strikes Back and a horrorfilm called the Shining.
I turned the page and I see,for the first time ever, this
iconic photo of Jack Nicholson.
(26:25):
Yes, is the only actor whocould play the Joker.
So I tore it out of the post.
I got home, I ran up to my desk,I took white out and I whited
out Jack's face.
I took a red pen and I did hislips.
I took a magic marker, I didhis hair and then I showed that
(26:45):
to everybody associated with theBatman movie and said Nicholson
is the only actor who couldplay the Joker and the day he
was hired was the greatest dayof my career.
To that point I followed.
Maybe 10 days later or twoweeks later, when I get a call
from one of the studio execsMichael, I go what, what do you
think of Tim's new idea, havingMichael Keaton play Batman?
(27:08):
I thought it was a joke.
Honestly, I thought they wereplaying a joke on me.
20 minutes later, after theyfinally convinced me I was
destroyed.
I said, oh my God, I've been atthis now seven and a half years
.
And it's over.
How could this be?
But then Tim Burton, in hisgenius, explained to me.
(27:29):
Tim had this thing, which Ialways call the big idea.
It's his big idea that changedHollywood forever, changed the
comic book industry, changed theworld culture's perception
about superheroes and comicbooks.
And he said if we're going todo the first ever dark and
serious comic book superheromovie and we don't want to get
unintentional laughs fromaudiences around the world who
(27:49):
have never read a comic bookbefore, this movie cannot be
about Batman.
That's when I crumbled to dust.
He said no, this movie has tobe about Bruce Wayne, bingo.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Bingo is right.
And then to see the humanity ofBruce Wayne, which, michael
Keaton was really amazing inthat role.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
He was astounding.
He said we need to create aportrayal of Bruce Wayne as
driven to the point of beingobsessed and psychotic, so that
audiences will believe withoutlaughing will believe this is a
guy who would put on a bat suitand go out and fight crime like
this.
And it was many years later.
I was having lunch with StanLee in Los Angeles and Stan said
(28:28):
to me you know, michael, it'sonly because of your 1989 Batman
that there's a Marvel CinematicUniverse.
I said, stan, what are youtalking about?
He said the way Tim Burton cameup with this idea of putting
the entire focus on Bruce Wayneinstead of Batman.
He said think about it, michael.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Iron man.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
The Iron man movies.
They should all be entitledTony Stark.
The Spider-Man movies should becalled Peter Parker.
He said it's because of Batman1989.
And I'll jump for a second timeIf you go to the next Genius
Online.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Christopher Nolan.
I'm glad you did that.
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
When he started the Dark Knight trilogy.
This past week we've beencelebrating the 20th anniversary
of Batman Begins, and when hedid Batman Begins I know
firsthand because they told mespecifically the filmmakers who
were pondering over what to doto revive James Bond as a
franchise, what to do to reviveStar Trek as a franchise, they
(29:26):
all went to see Batman Beginsand they said, oh, that's what
we need to do.
Bond begins, star Trek begins.
So the impact of that over theyears has been enormous and
usually goes under the radar.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
That is interesting, a very interesting fact Kind of
like the prequel kind of thing.
So can you tell how you did getthem to finally greenlight the
first?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Batman at the studio and they said we want you to see
the fine cut of this new moviethis young animator from Disney
just did for us.
It's live action.
So I went over there and I sawthe fine cut of Pee-Wee's Big
Adventure and I came out and Isaid guys, this is the greatest
combination, creatively, ofdirection and art direction I've
(30:10):
ever seen.
I'd love to meet him.
So they set up three lunches forme with Tim, and my first lunch
was primarily to indoctrinatehim into the world of Batman,
which he was not really familiarwith.
Goal number two to keep himaway from the campy, silly,
stupid stuff.
So I gave him from mycollection, reprints of the
(30:30):
1939-40 Batman comics the firstJoker and Catwoman, the first
Robin, 40 Batman comics, thefirst Joker and Catwoman, the
first Robin.
I gave him comic books from the70s where DC had returned
Batman to his darker roots onceagain.
And for the second meeting hecame back with a lot of
questions.
By the end of the third lunch Isaid as far as I'm concerned,
(30:51):
this is the guy, he's got it andeverybody there totally
believed in him.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
He had already done, beetlejuice now for them.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
And they knew what Michael Keaton was capable of.
I was still not so sure.
So they set up a screening,ultimately of the rough cut of a
movie called Clean and Sober,so I could see Michael's serious
performance.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
And then I walked out of there and I said I take it
all back.
We also want to talk about yourbook and the show.
The Boy who Loved Batmanturning into a Broadway show, so
tell us what's going on herewith this Broadway show.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
I've been in the movie TV business for 49 years.
All of a sudden, I find myselfin the theater business Broadway
.
It's totally different.
I mean it's totally different,and I'm partnered with Bob
Niederlander NiederlanderWorldwide.
You couldn't ask for betterpartners in the world of theater
.
For the first time, probably in35 years, I have butterflies in
my stomach.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
That's so fun, that's so great.
Yeah, it's a good feeling.
It's terrible and good at thesame time, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
I mean, they're bringing to life my memoir, my
story.
So it's you know, at the end ofthe day it's about my parents
and my wife and my brother andmy friends and Mrs Stiller and
Mrs Friedman and everybody onthe path who got me there.
It's surrealistic.
We did a six-week run in Tampaat the Straz Center for the
(32:10):
Performing Arts, got a standingovation at every performance.
It's really really quiteincredible.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
How does it feel to see your life being presented to
you?
Speaker 3 (32:21):
It is strange to say the least, but it is based on
the memoir I wrote.
So the most incredible, weirdpart of the whole thing was
casting my parents.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
And having an opportunity to bring them back
to life on the Broadway stage.
I mean, that is, I can't evencome up with the words.
I really can't.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Imagine it would be just a whirlwind of emotions and
to cast them and then to keepdirecting them on how to say
things and do things, and I canimagine that would be a
monumental effort to keep ittogether.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Well, we have an award-winning director, jeff
Calhoun, who's just done afabulous job with the cast and
the production design, everyelement that's gone into this.
It's really been creative,innovative and fun.
It's going to be entertaining,but it also hopefully like my
memoir fun.
It's going to be entertaining,but it also hopefully, like my
memoir, it'll be motivational.
I want it to be motivational.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
You have so many motivational moments in your
book that you share.
I wrote down a bunch of them.
You said there are three thingsthat stuck out.
90% of competition sits ontheir butts, waiting for the
world to come to them.
So then your competition isonly 10 percent.
The other 10 percent and thenthe only way to succeed, to make
(33:42):
your own luck and get your footin the door was by knocking on
them, having them slam in yourface, picking yourself up and
doing that again, and then yesand then I also love this and
I've heard it before.
Recently somebody said this tome Don't believe when people say
how bad your ideas are, anddon't believe when they say how
(34:03):
good they are.
Just believe in yourself, and Ilove that you.
You have that internally, sinceyou were little like even if
you have, I would think, havingan older brother who's good at
sports and good at all thesethings.
It could be demoralizing, butinstead you turn to what you
were passionate about and youwent all in on your passion and
(34:23):
doubled down on who you are.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Well, that goes back to my mom now.
My dad was about passion, mymom specifically about
perseverance and commitment.
Once you make a commitment, youstick to it and if it proves to
be painful, I'm sorry you getto the other side.
That's what you need to do tosucceed, and my brother and I
both carry that with us and hasmade a huge difference in our
(34:47):
lives and what we've each beenable to achieve.
I've spoken at I don't know 200and some odd colleges and
universities around the worldfor now, really two generations.
There has been this weirdlypervasive self-entitlement that
is out there and people thatthink the world owes them
something or the world's goingto come to them, and my message
(35:09):
is you got to get up off thecouch and be proactive.
It's just like you said.
That's the starting point formaking dreams come true.
There's no other way to do it.
Is it quick?
No, is it easy?
No, my God.
The rejection slip.
I have a closet filled withrejection slips.
So what do you do?
You know, when the door slamsin your face, you have two
(35:31):
choices you go home and cry, oryou dust yourself off and go
back and knock again.
That's the only choice you haveand if there's anything I've
learned in life, it's probablythis at this point, to me, life
is a series of choices.
Your life is about what youchoose to do or what you choose
not to do.
It's about what you choose tosay or what you choose not to
(35:52):
say, and every one of those hasconsequences, and that's how
I've tried to hold the coursethroughout my life.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
That can be paralyzing though I think for
some people.
You know like, oh my God, youknow to make the decision.
How do you know when to stopfollowing a pursuit?
You know, I wouldn't know tostick to it for 10 years to get
a film made.
You have also somethinggenetically nature and nurture
some cocktail inside of you alsothat allowed you.
(36:20):
It's a magic also.
I don't think it's only justperseverance.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Well, all right.
So I see it as having to dowith age as well.
When you are in college, youcannot make a wrong move.
You cannot make a mistake bymoving to LA to try to get into
business, or moving to New Yorkor moving to Nashville or
Chicago.
You have time on your hands andeverything you're doing you're
(36:45):
learning something important,and it's just as important to
learn what you don't like aswhat you do like, and you're not
losing time.
It is a positive learningexperience, and you have X
number of years to go down thispath.
Try that path, that one, orcome home and try something else
, and you haven't lost a damnthing.
Now it's different once you havea family and I talk about this
(37:08):
from experience, believe me,during those 10 years, it took
me to get Batman made, notknowing how I was going to pay
my bills the following week,having to keep a roof over my
family's head and food on thetable.
What do you do?
Well, the answer is you dovirtually everything you can
possibly do, but at a certainmoment in time, you have to look
at yourself in the mirror anddetermine okay, I gave it my
(37:30):
best shot.
Now I have to.
This is why I went to lawschool, so I'd have something to
fall back on.
Now it's time for me to do that.
Hang on a second.
I'm going to read you something.
This is the last letter my dadsent to me.
Michael, all that is expectedof a person is that he do his
best, don't panic, keep a coolhead and, whatever the outcome,
at least you can say I triedreal hard, that's it.
(37:51):
It's not really about achievingthis goal or that goal.
It's about, at the end of theday, being able to look in a
mirror and said I tried it ashard as I could, I did
everything I could, and you gotto be proud of what you look at
in the mirror.
And if that means it's now timeto go back and be a lawyer or
whatever it might be, so be it.
(38:12):
But you know in your heart ofhearts, you gave it everything
you have.
That's what counts.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Fantastic life advice .
It is, it's incredible advice,and I feel like that's the
premise of this Broadway show.
Your book and everything seemsto be that message is just give
it your all.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Well, the lowest point of my Batman career was
when the studio at that timebecame so enamored of Happy
Meals and toys and, as a result,we had things like Batman and
Robin, which was like the 66 TVseries Redux, catwoman and I was
just at the lowest point of mycareer.
(38:50):
I knew this was all wrong.
And Ben said to me and Ben wasmy dad's age and a legend in the
movie business Ben said to meyou know, michael, when the roof
is falling in on you andeverything is going south, what
you need to do is say this isthe greatest thing that could
have happened to me, because andthen fill in the blank.
So I said come on, ben, he goes.
(39:11):
I'm telling you it works.
It works every time, say it.
So I said okay, this is thegreatest thing that could have
ever happened to me, becausethey're going to get bitten on
the butt by this and, as aresult, the next time around,
whoever's running things willgive me what I want will be the
(39:41):
dark and serious Batman that Iwant.
Well, that horrible momentwound up leading to the
introduction of ChristopherNolan into the Batman universe,
which has never been the samesince he literally elevated the
comic book movie with BatmanBegins and the Dark Knight.
When you walk out of one of hismovies, you didn't have to say
that was a great comic bookmovie.
You could really just say thatwas a great film.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
You're a legend.
You really and truly are alegend and it is an incredible
honor to talk to you and havethis time to speak with you,
because what you have done forthe Batman universe, Macan and
comics and everything but forfilm and also for New Jersey,
it's incredible thecontributions that your life has
(40:18):
made to our universe.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
When I was writing the memoir I didn't know how to
end it.
I didn't know where to end itand it suddenly became very
crystal clear.
Around the time of the DarkKnight being out, I got a call
from a colonel at West Point andhe said our cadets every year
have a Cadets Choice Award andthey choose someone who best
represents the honor of WestPoint, and this year they voted
(40:44):
Batman the Dark Knight.
Would you consider coming upand accepting this award and
speaking to our cadets there's4,500 cadets at lunch.
So I said I would be absolutelyhonored to do that.
We went up to West Point.
They take us into the dininghall which looked like the set
from Harry Potter all stonevaulted ceilings, flags coming
(41:04):
together in a V with a stonebalcony.
And he's taking me up the stonebalcony and all the cadets are
standing at attention at theirtables.
And I said well, you didn'ttell me how long you'd like me
to speak.
I can do a half hour, I can do40 minutes, we can do Q&A.
He said oh, I didn't tell you.
The cadet's lunch is only 15minutes.
So I'm going to present youwith the award and you can speak
(41:26):
for three minutes and with thathe literally he hands me the
award and hands me themicrophone.
And now I'm standing in frontof 4,500 cadets.
So I said cadets of West Point.
When Bruce Wayne was a young boy, he saw his parents murdered
before his eyes on a concretealtar of blood on the streets of
Gotham City.
At that moment, sacrificing hischildhood, he swore a vow that
(41:50):
he would get the bad guy who didthis and spend the rest of his
life pursuing all the bad guys,even if he had to walk through
hell for the rest of his life,pursuing all the bad guys, even
if he had to walk through hellfor the rest of his life.
In doing this, he became anurban warrior, he became a
legend, he became the DarkKnight.
He said cadets of West Point,you are Batman.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Fantastic, it's so fantastic.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
And they erupted.
They started roaring andjumping and getting on the
chairs and it went on for anumber of minutes.
I still get the chills relatingthis, and that wasn't the best
moment.
The best moment came one weeklater at my office and I opened
the mail and there's a letterfrom a woman I do not know and
she says Dear Mr Usling, youdon't know me.
(42:33):
I am the mother of one of thecadets at West Point to whom you
spoke last week.
I don't know if you understandthe seriousness of this, but our
families are dealing with thefact that our kids are all going
off to Iraq and Afghanistannext month.
Given them a calling card, theyare walking across campus,
(42:56):
high-fiving each other, bouncingoff each other's chest, going I
am Batman, you are Batman.
She said this is a calling cardand in years to come, no matter
where, on what foreignbattlefield they may encounter
each other again, they willalways have this, and I can't
thank you enough for that.
They will always have this andI can't thank you enough for
(43:17):
that.
And that was it for me.
I mean, that's the pinnacle ofwhat you could possibly dream of
accomplishing or the impact youever dream of having, and it
sets everything in properperspective.
Yeah, it's only a movie, butit's not always just about box
office.
It can also be about things far, far greater and more important
than that.
And then I realized okay, Ihave the ending for my book.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Yeah, it was.
I recommend the book toeveryone to read, to go see your
upcoming Broadway show and, ofcourse, go through all of the
films that you've done.
Again, it's been an honor totalk with you.
And we're looking forward toseeing what you're up to next.
I'm sure, besides the Broadwayshow, there's probably a few
other things that we'll beseeing come out that you're
(43:59):
attached to, and we look forwardto that.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Thank you guys so much, and especially important
to me to be able to reach outand speak to my fellow Jerseyans
, and that's cool.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Okay, we ask everybody this, so we need to
ask you, and it's going to behard for you.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Tell us something that you love person, place or
thing or concept about NewJersey Attitude.
It's the magic of beinggrounded and street smart,
respecting family first,respecting food, especially
pizza, and the art of drivingwith your fingers.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Wait, you're going to have to explain that last one
for me.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Obviously, you've never been on a highway being
cut off by Jersey driversDriving with your fingers.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Okay, it took us a minute.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
That's quite all right.
They don't drive that way inLos Angeles, but they certainly
do in New Jersey Also.
One last thing is being proudlyidentifiable by your exit
number.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
That's true.
That is my red badge of courage.
Well, we have enjoyed everyminute of this interview and
really appreciate you coming onand sharing these stories with
us and everything that you do,and thank you so much for just
joining us here.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
I very much appreciate it.
As we say out in La La Land,let's do lunch have your people
call my people.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
I would love to do lunch Is it the actual LA lunch
which they say doesn'tmaterialize, or is it the New?
Jersey lunch that happenswithin a couple of days.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
It's the New Jersey lunch which actually happens and
is predicated on.
You're sitting at lunch withyour back against the wall at
the table.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
We're in.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
This podcast was produced by Rachel Martens and
Jeanette Afsharian.
You can find us on Spotify,itunes and Buzzsprout.
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
Hi Rachel, hey Jeanette, so we just got off a
epic interview.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Super Michael Uslan is the executive producer of all
the Batman films since 1989.
But he is more than just that.
We have read his book the Boywho Loved.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Batman.
He is from New Jersey and hehas a lot of Jersey pride and he
talks about his journey frombeing a kid really interested in
comic books and his passion.
Once he discovered Batman beinga human, it really resonated
with him.
It is an incredible story.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
He explains how, even you know, with all the ups and
downs and tons of rejections,that he just kept persevering
and also relying on hiscommunity, his family, his
friends, and made his dreamshappen.
And now his story is the basisof a Broadway show.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Coming to.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Broadway next year.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
You say in the interview that you know he's an
extraordinary human and he triesto push back on it, but I do
think he's quite extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yes, we're going to call it, he's a superhuman.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
There needs to be a comic book about him.
Yeah, so with that, pleaseenjoy this interview with
Michael Uslan.
Welcome, michael Uslan.
It's so nice to have you onLost in Jersey.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Thank you.
If there's any place in theworld I'd prefer to be lost in,
it is definitely New Jersey.
Good to hear we were lost herefor a while, but I think we're
slowly acclimating and becomingfound, yeah, after 20 years.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, the worst loss I was ever in New Jersey was
just after I got my driver'slicense at age 17.
I was approaching EatontownCircle and couldn't figure out
how to get off of it, so I wasjust going around in circles for
the better part of the nextyear.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
But other than that I've done pretty well.
That's like the Europeanvacation, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
You have navigated New Jersey very well and your
whole entire career very well.
I want to tell people how I gotintroduced to you, and it was
at the New Jersey Film Expo.
It was an incredible firstrollout for the expo.
I was really very impressed.
I'm sure you were very happywith what you saw as well.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
It was amazing.
What's happening in New Jerseynow in terms of motion picture
and television and digitalproduction is, I think, the
number one success story in theentire industry.
At this point In Los Angelesthe industry is in a state of
depression I mean depression buthere we are booming and every
year significantly tops the yearbefore.
(02:34):
I think over the next few yearsHollywood will become more a
state of mind than a physicalplace, and everybody in LA is
talking about New Jerseybecoming Hollywood East.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I remind them that Hollywood is simply New Jersey.
West of Hollywood, you keepfinding your connections back to
New York.
You know, it's just everybodyseems to be from the East side
that you were connecting withwhen you were there too.
So I love that it all comesback to the East coast.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah, it really is true in so many ways.
When I first started in theindustry, it was hard to find
people in LA who were nativeborn.
They were mostly transplantsand largely from New York, new
Jersey area.
That's changed now and there'snew generations that are
homegrown LA and unfortunatelynow, due to lack of jobs and
opportunities, are looking tosee what other states they could
(03:32):
come to.
So I think one of the thingsthat we're most proud of is,
unlike some states, we billourselves as the most diverse
state in the union and we wantdiversity.
We want people to come here andbe a part of this with us, and
we even offer a New Jerseyspecial tax incentive diversity
bonus, which is an additional 5%if your cast and crew meet our
(03:57):
requirements for diversity, andthat includes male, female.
So we're very proud of who weare and that's one of the
reasons we're being sosuccessful?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
First, can you tell people what your role is with
the New Jersey Commission?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah, I'm chairman of the New Jersey Film Commission
and I've been a member of theFilm Commission since, I believe
, 1984.
So I've been around the block alittle bit with this over many
governors and Governor Murphy,in a bipartisan effort, has
really done a tremendous job ingiving us every tool we need to
attract filmmaking to New Jersey, as evidenced very, very
plainly by the groundbreakingrecently at Fort Monmouth of
(04:34):
Netflix Studios.
It's going to be followed soonin Bayonne.
We have under constructionLionsgate Studios in Newark and
things are happening and theFilm Commission does an
extraordinary job working undereconomic development authority
and the unions are partners inthis and everybody's working
real hard to make it work andwhat is generating all of this?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I know that tax credits are a big generator of
films coming in.
Is this a burden on the averageNew Jersey citizen and taxes or
anything like that?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
No, it's not because the return on investment is huge
, and shortly they'll be comingout with some facts and figures
about how tremendous the returnon investment has been.
It's totally about economicdevelopment, job training and
jobs.
That's the whole thing.
And when you get to takeMeadowlands Arena, which has
gone through many names, thatwas just sitting there like a
(05:29):
latke doing nothing after thesports teams left and within 30
days of the tax credit we haveturned it into TV studios and I
think we're up to the seventh,or now maybe the eighth, TV
series shooting there and it'san absolute hub of economic
development and jobs and that'swhat this whole thing is about.
(05:50):
And it's having a greatpositive economic impact on the
state.
A bonus is it increases ourtourism because it improves and
increases New Jersey's imagearound the world Around the
world.
When I first started in thisbusiness, when executives or
talent heard I was from NewJersey, I had to listen to every
Tonight Show in New Jersey.
(06:10):
But the turning point being theSopranos and the Seaside Heights
Beach House for music, all of asudden Jersey became cool and
also we started to get Sopranoslike respect.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So we needed a mafia to make us look cool.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
I think what we need is Bruce Springsteen.
I think it starts and stopsright there.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
It is true.
Well, you know, that's thething about.
What's really interesting aboutyour story is that you are from
New Jersey and you have hadsuch incredible success.
Rachel and I think you werenominated for New Jersey Hall of
Fame recently.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I'm like who better Thank you To start, though where
you're, how you grew up,because, reading your book, we
really just enjoyed hearing,first of all, your infectious
joy come through the page, butyour voice your voice when you
talk about your family, and onething that really stuck out to
me is how you said that you grewup with a dad that loved his
(07:10):
job, loved, loved, loved andwoke up every day and loved
going to work as a Mason, andI'd love to just hear a little
bit more about your family.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Yeah, my dad was extraordinary.
He had to drop out of day onhigh school when he was 16 to go
to work to help his familysurvive the Depression.
And my dad, as a Mason, was anold world artist.
He was a craftsman and I wish Iwould take you on a tour down
the shore of the homes he built,the fireplaces, the chimneys
(07:39):
that are still standing today,that are so magnificent.
And he worked six days a weekfrom age 16 to age 80.
Loved what he did.
He worked on days like today.
You know 98 degrees New Jerseyhumidity through the roof.
He worked in the snow, butevery morning before dawn he got
out of bed.
Six days a week, big smile onhis face let's get the day
(08:00):
started, can't wait to get towork.
And my older brother, paul, andI, growing up in that house how
can you not want that foryourself?
How could you not want to sayon a rainy Monday morning oh boy
, I can't wait to get to workand that's the magic of this
whole thing?
So my dad had my brother and Iwork construction for him during
summers in high school.
It was terrible.
We were tarring foundations andcarrying bricks and cement.
(08:23):
It was awful, but that was mydawning and when my dad told me
okay, go out and find your ownbricks and stones.
And, based on my upbringing asthis geeky kid, I knew early on
it had to be comic books andsuperheroes and cartoons and
movies and TV.
That's where my heart was,that's where my head was.
(08:45):
But what do you do when you'rea blue collar kid from Jersey?
You don't come from money andcan't buy your way into
Hollywood.
You have no relatives inHollywood, you know nobody in
Hollywood.
So for me it was always aquestion how do you make your
dreams come true?
And that's what I had todiscover on my own.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And can you, can your story?
It has so many intricatedetails that are interesting.
How can you summarize for ourlisteners your journey into
making your dreams come true?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Support system.
So I was this strange kid.
I mean, my brother was asuperstar in every sport he ever
did and I could barely swing abat.
So I escaped into a world ofsuperheroes and comic books.
So I escaped into a world ofsuperheroes and comic books and
I would shovel snow in thewinters, mow lawns in the
summers, search through garbagecans for bottles that I could
(09:34):
return for two cents each orfive cents, check the couch in
the car behind the seat forchange.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, there was always stuff there.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
That was what I had to do and my parents were
completely supportive of me forthat and they gave up so much of
their time which they didn'thave a lot of because they
worked so much to making sure Iwas making the most out of my
passion in life.
It started with that.
It was my friends.
It was my teachers.
I had some teachers inparticular at Ocean Township
(10:03):
High School that made all thedifference in the world in my
life.
I had two English teachers, my7th and 8th grade English
teachers.
They happened to besisters-in-law, and it was my
7th grade English teacher, mrsStiller, who told me one day
Michael, your writing is special, you are very creative and
you're a very good creativewriter and you could be doing
something when you're an adultwith this creativity.
(10:26):
She then turned me over intoeighth grade to her
sister-in-law, mrs Friedman, whowas Genghis Khan disguised as
an English teacher.
Mrs Friedman was as tough andstrict as you could imagine and
first day of class she asked meto stay extra and she said Mrs
Stiller, showed me yourportfolio from seventh grade of
all your writing.
(10:46):
She said I think she's right.
I think you could become awriter.
I think you have the creativeability to do that.
But anyone can come up withcreative ideas, but very, very
few spend the time or make theeffort to master the craft of
writing.
So this year I am going to holdyou to a higher standard than
anyone else.
You are not going to leave thisclass until you've diagrammed a
(11:09):
thousand sentences andunderstand structure and your
vocabulary and what you're goingto read and why.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
It sounds almost like a punishment.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
If you don't believe that there is such a thing as
superheroes in real life, you'venever met a great teacher, kind
of.
The end of the story was whenour first Batman movie came out
in 1989.
I love this.
I tracked Mrs Stiller and MrsFriedman down and I sent a
limousine for them and I broughtthem to our premiere in New
York and I got to speak for 10minutes before the movie started
(11:44):
and I told the story about themand I said if it wasn't for
these two ladies, there would beno Batman movie tonight.
There would not.
And I had them stand up andthey got a standing ovation and
that to me was like my seventh,eighth grade fantasy come true.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
They must have been overwhelmed.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
It was a great moment for me.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
That's something that Rachel and I were talking about
how much you thank everyonethat you have that has helped
you along the way.
There's teamwork, spirit, thatyou have a kindness and a
thoughtfulness for everyone, andit doesn't matter if you're
(12:23):
Jewish, italian, irish, whateverFamily.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
First, everything in this state starts with family.
Second thing is what do I needto do?
What do I need to sacrifice togive our kids a good education?
And third, food.
But we won't deal with thatright now, but it's a common
link for me and all my friends,my cousins, everybody.
It's a common link in thisstate and the more people I meet
, whether it's kids or adults,the more it proves true.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I like how you say that, because I think that when
you start off, I couldn'tbelieve, when I start your book,
how you're talking about yourelementary school friends and
sharing pictures of them todiscuss their relationships, and
how formative friendships are,not just parents and relatives,
but also these friendships thatlasted.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
In my journey through life, I've run across the
majority of people who did nothave a happy high school
experience and were glad toescape it.
In my community down the shore,Ocean Township, me and my
friends were together fromkindergarten through grade 12.
So we were in Little Leaguetogether, Cub Scouts together.
We knew each other'sgrandparents.
We have a warm and fuzzy bondthat cannot be broken.
(13:32):
That is really quite unique andamazing.
It was also an extremelyintelligent, very competitive
class all the way through.
And when Ocean Township HighSchool recently started its
School Hall of Fame, Out of Ibelieve, the first 10 people who
were inducted into the school'sHall of Fame, four were from my
(13:54):
class.
That's extraordinary Somethingabout that year the water no
it's not me, it's everybody,it's that old gang of mine.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
The thing that's interesting also is that, as you
pointed out, you had awonderful childhood, the way
that you depict it but yet yougravitated towards Batman, and
specifically in the comic booksthat you were reading at the
time, because of his back, asyou, you know, as you ventured
(14:29):
through your career of, you know, going to DC comics, eventually
working and writing some of theDC comic books and then moving
your way to getting the rightsto the Batman and trying to
bring that, that darker side.
I want to, I want you toelaborate on that journey, but I
also I'm curious if what was itthat drew you to the darker
character?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Okay, that's a fair question.
So when I was really little, mymom said I learned to read from
comic books before I was fouryears old and my older brother,
Paul, had been bringing theminto the house and there was a
longstanding, decades-oldtradition that many boys got
their first exposure to comicbooks in barbershops, where they
would have old comic booksthrown across a broken card
(15:11):
table as you were waiting to getyour haircut.
It was certainly true for me.
In Asbury Park at Red'sBarbershop when I was really
young, I think I started withthings like Casper and Richie
Rich.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Casper and Richie Rich.
I just wanted toie Look.
I just wanted to let you knowbefore not to interrupt you that
I have all of these comics andI have a ton of Richie Riches.
Hold them up, jeanette, holdthem up a little higher, I have
all these, can you not see them?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
The other way.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
I have a lot of Archie.
We have to talk to you aboutArchie, but I'll wait on that.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
These are all my husband's comic books from when
he was a kid.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Well, put them back in their plastic bags so you'll
be able to send your grandkidsthrough college someday.
That was the beginning.
And then Superman was the onlycomic book superhero in the
media.
He was on TV when I was growingup.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
The Adventures of Superman.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Then, when I got a little bit older, like a more
mature, sophisticated six orseven, I gravitated to Batman
and there were distinct reasonswhy.
First and foremost is the factthat, unlike Superman or Wonder
Woman, he was human and that wasit for me.
I really, really identifiedwith him because he had no
superpowers.
(16:22):
It was up to his brains andwhatever he could train his body
to do and his smarts, like withhis utility belt.
Second is the car.
Oh my God, the car.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
The car is amazing.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Everybody Amazing.
Third, he had the scariest butmost primal murdered before his
eyes in the street andsacrificing his childhood at
that moment and swearing, takinga vow that he would spend the
rest of his life walking throughhell to get the guy who did
(16:55):
this, get all the bad guys.
I mean, that's powerful stuff.
And the final element of it issomething Stan Lee once
explained to me.
Stan was the co-creator of thepantheon of Marvel superheroes
and he was originally my mentorand then became my friend, my
creative associate.
Ultimately, I helped producehis memorial when he passed at
(17:16):
Grauman's Chinese Theater inHollywood and Stan said to me I
have a theory aboutsupervillains.
He said supervillains areequally important as superheroes
because ultimately, it is thesuper villain who defines the
superhero.
Now, if you accept that, whichI do, batman has the greatest
rogues gallery of super villainsin history, and that was the
(17:39):
other thing that made it sointeresting that every week you
wanted to go back and see whowas up next and what was going
to happen next.
So that was all to happen next.
So that was all part of it.
The darkness started with thecreation of Batman in 1939 by
its creators, bill Finger andBob Kane, and I am one of.
I don't know probably you cancount them on one hand the
(18:00):
number of people left standingwho met and talked with both of
Batman's creators, and I heardstraight from Bill Finger's
mouth why they created it, howthey created it, what their
vision was, and it was as acreature of the night, a dark
night, fighting these deeplydisturbed villains from the
shadows.
And I knew that.
(18:21):
How can you respect a characterand not respect the integrity
of his creators?
So I listened to that and thathad an impact on me and
realizing that that was theirtrue Batman, that became my true
Batman.
So when the 1966 TV show cameon the air, I think apoplectic
is the best word to describe myreaction to it, it's just not.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
There were two comical in some ways.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Comical campy silly.
The ones that did me in werethe ones where Batman puts on
swimming trunks over his batuniform and has a surfing
contest against the Joker.
When Batman ran around GothamCity holding a bomb where the
fuse was going down, not knowingwhere to throw it safely.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Poor Batman.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
And that's why I then made my vow, like young Bruce
Wayne once made his vow, andthat set me on my path and you
went to law school and beforeyou got, your ultimate goal is
that the Jewish mother of plan Byou better have a plan B.
And C and D?
Yes, absolutely.
Well, it's more complicatedthan that.
(19:30):
I graduated with a degree inhistory.
All right, what do you do withthat in retrospect?
I mean, I loved it and I lovemy professors, but what do you
do with it?
The Vietnam War was still on andif I continued going to school
such as law school, I couldcontinue to get my 2S student
deferment.
I had just gotten married.
Law school I could continue toget my 2S student deferment.
I had just gotten married.
My wife was starting nursingschool, so it made sense for me
(19:50):
to stay there and continue on.
Begrudgingly, I went to lawschool, and that was only after
I had mailed out 372 resumes tomovie and TV companies
attempting to get a creative jobin the industry.
Of the 372 resumes sent out, Igot two job offers.
One was to go to work for atalent agency in New York and
(20:15):
work in their mailroom for $95 aweek.
The other was move to LA andwork for a producer as a
production assistant and go forcoffee for a year or two for $95
a week.
And I did not believe, nor didmy new wife, that we could
comfortably live together on $95a week in either New York or LA
(20:35):
, and so therefore plan B, whichmy parents and her parents were
very happy about.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
She wasn't upset either, but I really resented
having to be there, but it's sogreat that you can see how that
actually helped along the waywith negotiating and reading
contracts and fine print, and no, I'm not sure if you believe
this.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
If I let 21-year-old Michael out right now, he would
kick me in the teeth.
But I couldn't haveaccomplished what I accomplished
without having had thatbackground.
That is what opened the doorfor me to Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
I was somewhere in the middle, at that part in your
book, and I was talking to mysons who are, you know, new in
college and trying to figure outwhat they want to do, and I was
like, you know, michael went tolaw school and that's what got
all those Batman movies you knowmake.
It wasn't what he intended, butyou never know how you're going
to use your degree.
Can you elaborate on how thatjourney led to you, you know,
(21:33):
acquiring the rights and thingslike that?
Speaker 3 (21:35):
You need a through line, you need a game plan.
So I wanted to get into thecreative side of movies and TV
and I was shut down just tryingto send out resumes cold when.
I didn't know anybody or had noexperience, so the plan was all
right.
So if I go to law school, takeevery course I can find having
(21:55):
anything to do withentertainment or the media, then
get a legal, business,financial kind of job in the
industry.
That would let me network likemad, learn how you finance and
produce movies and how they getdistributed.
Then I would have a shot atsneaking in a back window onto
the creative side or onto theproducing side.
(22:17):
And it worked.
I mean, it actually worked.
But going in, my game plan wasI will be a lawyer for a maximum
of four years, just as if it'slike graduate school.
At the end of four years I willquit and I will either at that
time be writing and or producingmovies, cartoons and television
(22:37):
, or I will be delivering pizzasfor Domino's.
But I will not let myself betrapped being a lawyer for the
rest of my life doing people'swills and divorces, be trapped
being a lawyer for the rest ofmy life doing people's wills and
divorces.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I will not do that, and I know that you talk about
how it took you 10 years ofrejection before you got the
first Batman in 1989, greenlitand made and done.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And both of us remember that film.
Yes, Like I remember getting soexcited to go see it in the
theater.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
It was groundbreaking .
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Everybody was talking about it and to look back at it
now and think there weren'tsuperhero movies, it was a first
of its kind.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
And there was no CGI, there were no computer effects
back then, there was no internet, there was no social media.
And yet our first Batman moviewas, in my opinion, the best
ever marketed movie, because inthat magical summer of 89,
billboards, posters, started toappear all over without the name
(23:37):
of the movie on it.
Just the symbol and it said June23rd and it was electric the
Batmania I don't know how todescribe it.
You couldn't walk through TimesSquare, not 20 steps, without
seeing someone in a Batman hator a Batman t-shirt.
Who was behind that marketing?
(24:00):
That was genius.
Clothing manufacturing industryran out of black cloth material
because so many Batman t-shirtswere printed up and they
couldn't keep up with the demand.
People were sadly breaking intobus stops to grab the posters
and, one of the weirdest thingsthat happened, the theaters were
(24:20):
reporting, in that they weregetting flooded with calls every
day.
People would say what movie isshowing the Batman trailer and
these people would go buy aticket to that movie, watch the
trailer for two minutes and thenleave.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Just to see the trailer.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
But there was a dark side to it all, and the dark
side came when the announcementwent out of Michael Keaton
playing Batman.
My God, I thought they weregoing to surround Warner
Brothers with pitchforks andtorches right out of
Frankenstein and this is withoutsocial media.
It was everywhere.
The front page of the WallStreet Journal did like an
(24:56):
editorial about Batman beingcampy again, with Michael Keaton
, who was Mr Mom and a stand-upcomedian, playing Batman in a
movie directed by the guy whojust directed Pee-Wee's.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Big Adventure, I know .
Can you talk about that?
I love the stories that youtell about that time when you
decided to go with Tim Burtonand where he was in his career
and him telling you that hewanted to use Michael Keaton and
also the Jack Nicholson story.
Can you tell that story?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Well, first of all, let me, just as a Jersey guy, I
got to mention this.
Three of Batman's supervillainsin history grew up on the
Jersey Shore, Did they?
For those of you who don't know, from Asbury Park and Bradley
Beach, Cesar Romero went toAsbury Park High School who
played the Joker on the TVseries.
I still haven't forgiven himfor not shaving off his mustache
(25:44):
, but that's another story.
Jack Nicholson out of Neptunewent Favorite son.
There's some kind of bat magicgoing on in the Jersey store.
Maybe it's the.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Jersey devil lore that seeped in Fair yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I love that, rachel, that's great.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
So it was Memorial Weekend, 1980.
I get on the bus coming back toNew Jersey and I open the New
York Post to the movie section.
That holiday weekend two bigmovies were opening up the
Empire Strikes Back and a horrorfilm called the Shining.
I turned the page and I see,for the first time ever, this
iconic photo of Jack Nicholson.
(26:25):
Yes, is the only actor whocould play the Joker.
So I tore it out of the post.
I got home, I ran up to my desk,I took white out and I whited
out Jack's face.
I took a red pen and I did hislips.
I took a magic marker, I didhis hair and then I showed that
(26:45):
to everybody associated with theBatman movie and said Nicholson
is the only actor who couldplay the Joker and the day he
was hired was the greatest dayof my career.
To that point I followed.
Maybe 10 days later or twoweeks later, when I get a call
from one of the studio execsMichael, I go what, what do you
think of Tim's new idea, havingMichael Keaton play Batman?
(27:08):
I thought it was a joke.
Honestly, I thought they wereplaying a joke on me.
20 minutes later, after theyfinally convinced me I was
destroyed.
I said, oh my God, I've been atthis now seven and a half years
.
And it's over.
How could this be?
But then Tim Burton, in hisgenius, explained to me.
(27:29):
Tim had this thing, which Ialways call the big idea.
It's his big idea that changedHollywood forever, changed the
comic book industry, changed theworld culture's perception
about superheroes and comicbooks.
And he said if we're going todo the first ever dark and
serious comic book superheromovie and we don't want to get
unintentional laughs fromaudiences around the world who
(27:49):
have never read a comic bookbefore, this movie cannot be
about Batman.
That's when I crumbled to dust.
He said no, this movie has tobe about Bruce Wayne, bingo.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Bingo is right.
And then to see the humanity ofBruce Wayne, which, michael
Keaton was really amazing inthat role.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
He was astounding.
He said we need to create aportrayal of Bruce Wayne as
driven to the point of beingobsessed and psychotic, so that
audiences will believe withoutlaughing will believe this is a
guy who would put on a bat suitand go out and fight crime like
this.
And it was many years later.
I was having lunch with StanLee in Los Angeles and Stan said
(28:28):
to me you know, michael, it'sonly because of your 1989 Batman
that there's a Marvel CinematicUniverse.
I said, stan, what are youtalking about?
He said the way Tim Burton cameup with this idea of putting
the entire focus on Bruce Wayneinstead of Batman.
He said think about it, michael.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Iron man.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
The Iron man movies.
They should all be entitledTony Stark.
The Spider-Man movies should becalled Peter Parker.
He said it's because of Batman1989.
And I'll jump for a second timeIf you go to the next Genius
Online.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Christopher Nolan.
I'm glad you did that.
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
When he started the Dark Knight trilogy.
This past week we've beencelebrating the 20th anniversary
of Batman Begins, and when hedid Batman Begins I know
firsthand because they told mespecifically the filmmakers who
were pondering over what to doto revive James Bond as a
franchise, what to do to reviveStar Trek as a franchise, they
(29:26):
all went to see Batman Beginsand they said, oh, that's what
we need to do.
Bond begins, star Trek begins.
So the impact of that over theyears has been enormous and
usually goes under the radar.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
That is interesting, a very interesting fact Kind of
like the prequel kind of thing.
So can you tell how you did getthem to finally greenlight the
first?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Batman at the studio and they said we want you to see
the fine cut of this new moviethis young animator from Disney
just did for us.
It's live action.
So I went over there and I sawthe fine cut of Pee-Wee's Big
Adventure and I came out and Isaid guys, this is the greatest
combination, creatively, ofdirection and art direction I've
(30:10):
ever seen.
I'd love to meet him.
So they set up three lunches forme with Tim, and my first lunch
was primarily to indoctrinatehim into the world of Batman,
which he was not really familiarwith.
Goal number two to keep himaway from the campy, silly,
stupid stuff.
So I gave him from mycollection, reprints of the
(30:30):
1939-40 Batman comics the firstJoker and Catwoman, the first
Robin, 40 Batman comics, thefirst Joker and Catwoman, the
first Robin.
I gave him comic books from the70s where DC had returned
Batman to his darker roots onceagain.
And for the second meeting hecame back with a lot of
questions.
By the end of the third lunch Isaid as far as I'm concerned,
(30:51):
this is the guy, he's got it andeverybody there totally
believed in him.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
He had already done, beetlejuice now for them.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
And they knew what Michael Keaton was capable of.
I was still not so sure.
So they set up a screening,ultimately of the rough cut of a
movie called Clean and Sober,so I could see Michael's serious
performance.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
And then I walked out of there and I said I take it
all back.
We also want to talk about yourbook and the show.
The Boy who Loved Batmanturning into a Broadway show, so
tell us what's going on herewith this Broadway show.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
I've been in the movie TV business for 49 years.
All of a sudden, I find myselfin the theater business Broadway
.
It's totally different.
I mean it's totally different,and I'm partnered with Bob
Niederlander NiederlanderWorldwide.
You couldn't ask for betterpartners in the world of theater
.
For the first time, probably in35 years, I have butterflies in
my stomach.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
That's so fun, that's so great.
Yeah, it's a good feeling.
It's terrible and good at thesame time, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
I mean, they're bringing to life my memoir, my
story.
So it's you know, at the end ofthe day it's about my parents
and my wife and my brother andmy friends and Mrs Stiller and
Mrs Friedman and everybody onthe path who got me there.
It's surrealistic.
We did a six-week run in Tampaat the Straz Center for the
(32:10):
Performing Arts, got a standingovation at every performance.
It's really really quiteincredible.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
How does it feel to see your life being presented to
you?
Speaker 3 (32:21):
It is strange to say the least, but it is based on
the memoir I wrote.
So the most incredible, weirdpart of the whole thing was
casting my parents.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
And having an opportunity to bring them back
to life on the Broadway stage.
I mean, that is, I can't evencome up with the words.
I really can't.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Imagine it would be just a whirlwind of emotions and
to cast them and then to keepdirecting them on how to say
things and do things, and I canimagine that would be a
monumental effort to keep ittogether.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Well, we have an award-winning director, jeff
Calhoun, who's just done afabulous job with the cast and
the production design, everyelement that's gone into this.
It's really been creative,innovative and fun.
It's going to be entertaining,but it also hopefully like my
memoir fun.
It's going to be entertaining,but it also hopefully, like my
memoir, it'll be motivational.
I want it to be motivational.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
You have so many motivational moments in your
book that you share.
I wrote down a bunch of them.
You said there are three thingsthat stuck out.
90% of competition sits ontheir butts, waiting for the
world to come to them.
So then your competition isonly 10 percent.
The other 10 percent and thenthe only way to succeed, to make
(33:42):
your own luck and get your footin the door was by knocking on
them, having them slam in yourface, picking yourself up and
doing that again, and then yesand then I also love this and
I've heard it before.
Recently somebody said this tome Don't believe when people say
how bad your ideas are, anddon't believe when they say how
(34:03):
good they are.
Just believe in yourself, and Ilove that you.
You have that internally, sinceyou were little like even if
you have, I would think, havingan older brother who's good at
sports and good at all thesethings.
It could be demoralizing, butinstead you turn to what you
were passionate about and youwent all in on your passion and
(34:23):
doubled down on who you are.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Well, that goes back to my mom now.
My dad was about passion, mymom specifically about
perseverance and commitment.
Once you make a commitment, youstick to it and if it proves to
be painful, I'm sorry you getto the other side.
That's what you need to do tosucceed, and my brother and I
both carry that with us and hasmade a huge difference in our
(34:47):
lives and what we've each beenable to achieve.
I've spoken at I don't know 200and some odd colleges and
universities around the worldfor now, really two generations.
There has been this weirdlypervasive self-entitlement that
is out there and people thatthink the world owes them
something or the world's goingto come to them, and my message
(35:09):
is you got to get up off thecouch and be proactive.
It's just like you said.
That's the starting point formaking dreams come true.
There's no other way to do it.
Is it quick?
No, is it easy?
No, my God.
The rejection slip.
I have a closet filled withrejection slips.
So what do you do?
You know, when the door slamsin your face, you have two
(35:31):
choices you go home and cry, oryou dust yourself off and go
back and knock again.
That's the only choice you haveand if there's anything I've
learned in life, it's probablythis at this point, to me, life
is a series of choices.
Your life is about what youchoose to do or what you choose
not to do.
It's about what you choose tosay or what you choose not to
(35:52):
say, and every one of those hasconsequences, and that's how
I've tried to hold the coursethroughout my life.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
That can be paralyzing though I think for
some people.
You know like, oh my God, youknow to make the decision.
How do you know when to stopfollowing a pursuit?
You know, I wouldn't know tostick to it for 10 years to get
a film made.
You have also somethinggenetically nature and nurture
some cocktail inside of you alsothat allowed you.
(36:20):
It's a magic also.
I don't think it's only justperseverance.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Well, all right.
So I see it as having to dowith age as well.
When you are in college, youcannot make a wrong move.
You cannot make a mistake bymoving to LA to try to get into
business, or moving to New Yorkor moving to Nashville or
Chicago.
You have time on your hands andeverything you're doing you're
(36:45):
learning something important,and it's just as important to
learn what you don't like aswhat you do like, and you're not
losing time.
It is a positive learningexperience, and you have X
number of years to go down thispath.
Try that path, that one, orcome home and try something else
, and you haven't lost a damnthing.
Now it's different once you havea family and I talk about this
(37:08):
from experience, believe me,during those 10 years, it took
me to get Batman made, notknowing how I was going to pay
my bills the following week,having to keep a roof over my
family's head and food on thetable.
What do you do?
Well, the answer is you dovirtually everything you can
possibly do, but at a certainmoment in time, you have to look
at yourself in the mirror anddetermine okay, I gave it my
(37:30):
best shot.
Now I have to.
This is why I went to lawschool, so I'd have something to
fall back on.
Now it's time for me to do that.
Hang on a second.
I'm going to read you something.
This is the last letter my dadsent to me.
Michael, all that is expectedof a person is that he do his
best, don't panic, keep a coolhead and, whatever the outcome,
at least you can say I triedreal hard, that's it.
(37:51):
It's not really about achievingthis goal or that goal.
It's about, at the end of theday, being able to look in a
mirror and said I tried it ashard as I could, I did
everything I could, and you gotto be proud of what you look at
in the mirror.
And if that means it's now timeto go back and be a lawyer or
whatever it might be, so be it.
(38:12):
But you know in your heart ofhearts, you gave it everything
you have.
That's what counts.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Fantastic life advice .
It is, it's incredible advice,and I feel like that's the
premise of this Broadway show.
Your book and everything seemsto be that message is just give
it your all.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Well, the lowest point of my Batman career was
when the studio at that timebecame so enamored of Happy
Meals and toys and, as a result,we had things like Batman and
Robin, which was like the 66 TVseries Redux, catwoman and I was
just at the lowest point of mycareer.
(38:50):
I knew this was all wrong.
And Ben said to me and Ben wasmy dad's age and a legend in the
movie business Ben said to meyou know, michael, when the roof
is falling in on you andeverything is going south, what
you need to do is say this isthe greatest thing that could
have happened to me, because andthen fill in the blank.
So I said come on, ben, he goes.
(39:11):
I'm telling you it works.
It works every time, say it.
So I said okay, this is thegreatest thing that could have
ever happened to me, becausethey're going to get bitten on
the butt by this and, as aresult, the next time around,
whoever's running things willgive me what I want will be the
(39:41):
dark and serious Batman that Iwant.
Well, that horrible momentwound up leading to the
introduction of ChristopherNolan into the Batman universe,
which has never been the samesince he literally elevated the
comic book movie with BatmanBegins and the Dark Knight.
When you walk out of one of hismovies, you didn't have to say
that was a great comic bookmovie.
You could really just say thatwas a great film.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
You're a legend.
You really and truly are alegend and it is an incredible
honor to talk to you and havethis time to speak with you,
because what you have done forthe Batman universe, Macan and
comics and everything but forfilm and also for New Jersey,
it's incredible thecontributions that your life has
(40:18):
made to our universe.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
When I was writing the memoir I didn't know how to
end it.
I didn't know where to end itand it suddenly became very
crystal clear.
Around the time of the DarkKnight being out, I got a call
from a colonel at West Point andhe said our cadets every year
have a Cadets Choice Award andthey choose someone who best
represents the honor of WestPoint, and this year they voted
(40:44):
Batman the Dark Knight.
Would you consider coming upand accepting this award and
speaking to our cadets there's4,500 cadets at lunch.
So I said I would be absolutelyhonored to do that.
We went up to West Point.
They take us into the dininghall which looked like the set
from Harry Potter all stonevaulted ceilings, flags coming
(41:04):
together in a V with a stonebalcony.
And he's taking me up the stonebalcony and all the cadets are
standing at attention at theirtables.
And I said well, you didn'ttell me how long you'd like me
to speak.
I can do a half hour, I can do40 minutes, we can do Q&A.
He said oh, I didn't tell you.
The cadet's lunch is only 15minutes.
So I'm going to present youwith the award and you can speak
(41:26):
for three minutes and with thathe literally he hands me the
award and hands me themicrophone.
And now I'm standing in frontof 4,500 cadets.
So I said cadets of West Point.
When Bruce Wayne was a young boy, he saw his parents murdered
before his eyes on a concretealtar of blood on the streets of
Gotham City.
At that moment, sacrificing hischildhood, he swore a vow that
(41:50):
he would get the bad guy who didthis and spend the rest of his
life pursuing all the bad guys,even if he had to walk through
hell for the rest of his life,pursuing all the bad guys, even
if he had to walk through hellfor the rest of his life.
In doing this, he became anurban warrior, he became a
legend, he became the DarkKnight.
He said cadets of West Point,you are Batman.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Fantastic, it's so fantastic.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
And they erupted.
They started roaring andjumping and getting on the
chairs and it went on for anumber of minutes.
I still get the chills relatingthis, and that wasn't the best
moment.
The best moment came one weeklater at my office and I opened
the mail and there's a letterfrom a woman I do not know and
she says Dear Mr Usling, youdon't know me.
(42:33):
I am the mother of one of thecadets at West Point to whom you
spoke last week.
I don't know if you understandthe seriousness of this, but our
families are dealing with thefact that our kids are all going
off to Iraq and Afghanistannext month.
Given them a calling card, theyare walking across campus,
(42:56):
high-fiving each other, bouncingoff each other's chest, going I
am Batman, you are Batman.
She said this is a calling cardand in years to come, no matter
where, on what foreignbattlefield they may encounter
each other again, they willalways have this, and I can't
thank you enough for that.
They will always have this andI can't thank you enough for
(43:17):
that.
And that was it for me.
I mean, that's the pinnacle ofwhat you could possibly dream of
accomplishing or the impact youever dream of having, and it
sets everything in properperspective.
Yeah, it's only a movie, butit's not always just about box
office.
It can also be about things far, far greater and more important
than that.
And then I realized okay, Ihave the ending for my book.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Yeah, it was.
I recommend the book toeveryone to read, to go see your
upcoming Broadway show and, ofcourse, go through all of the
films that you've done.
Again, it's been an honor totalk with you.
And we're looking forward toseeing what you're up to next.
I'm sure, besides the Broadwayshow, there's probably a few
other things that we'll beseeing come out that you're
(43:59):
attached to, and we look forwardto that.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Thank you guys so much, and especially important
to me to be able to reach outand speak to my fellow Jerseyans
, and that's cool.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Okay, we ask everybody this, so we need to
ask you, and it's going to behard for you.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Tell us something that you love person, place or
thing or concept about NewJersey Attitude.
It's the magic of beinggrounded and street smart,
respecting family first,respecting food, especially
pizza, and the art of drivingwith your fingers.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Wait, you're going to have to explain that last one
for me.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Obviously, you've never been on a highway being
cut off by Jersey driversDriving with your fingers.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Okay, it took us a minute.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
That's quite all right.
They don't drive that way inLos Angeles, but they certainly
do in New Jersey Also.
One last thing is being proudlyidentifiable by your exit
number.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
That's true.
That is my red badge of courage.
Well, we have enjoyed everyminute of this interview and
really appreciate you coming onand sharing these stories with
us and everything that you do,and thank you so much for just
joining us here.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
I very much appreciate it.
As we say out in La La Land,let's do lunch have your people
call my people.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
I would love to do lunch Is it the actual LA lunch
which they say doesn'tmaterialize, or is it the New?
Jersey lunch that happenswithin a couple of days.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
It's the New Jersey lunch which actually happens and
is predicated on.
You're sitting at lunch withyour back against the wall at
the table.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
We're in.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
This podcast was produced by Rachel Martens and
Jeanette Afsharian.
You can find us on Spotify,itunes and Buzzsprout.
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
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