October 7, 2025 • 35 mins
What happens when your reputation is on the line? Karen Kessler has been in the room for some of the toughest calls in crisis PR—guiding clients through scandals, lawsuits, and the headlines they never wanted.
In this episode, she shares why she walked away from Roger Ailes, how her firm later supported the women who spoke out, and what drives her firm's every decision. We discuss the anatomy of a genuine apology, the distinction between accountability and performance, and how to prepare for conversations that no one plans to have—such as telling a spouse about an affair, a board about a breach of trust, or a team about layoffs. Karen explains why most “crises” burn out in 48 hours, the cases that don’t, and the quiet work of rebuilding reputation when headlines fade. We dive into outrage ecosystems around Middle East commentary, doxxing,
Karen also traces her path into high-stakes crisis communications with no business plan, just curiosity and persistence—and explains how she’s now helping turn New Jersey into a booming film and TV hub.
If you care about leadership, resilience, and handling tough moments with integrity, this conversation is packed with lessons you can use right now.
Subscribe, share with a friend who needs media-savvy guidance, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
We'd like to welcome you, Karen.
Thank you so much for coming onLost in Jersey.
Thank you for inviting me.
We were lucky enough to meet youwhen we saw you on the panel at
the Indie Fest at Red Bank, Iguess it was.
Right.
As you are on the New JerseyFilm and Television Commission.
SPEAKER_01 (00:20):
Yes.
Was very appreciative that I wasappointed a commissioner by the
governor.
It was uh it was a very nicesurprise.
SPEAKER_02 (00:26):
Well, I'm not surprised that you were because
when we were listening to thepanel, every time you spoke,
Rachel and I were like, What?
We we kept writing down, we needto talk to her.
SPEAKER_00 (00:36):
All right, that's all very kind.
You got I came on, you're verykind.
SPEAKER_01 (00:40):
You don't have to make up a story.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
No, it's really, it's true.
It's true.
You gave very valuable and tothe point tips about public
relations and how people shouldconduct themselves or things to
do to help increase theirpublicity and PR.
SPEAKER_01 (00:55):
You can have the greatest idea, but if you can't
sell it, it's not gonna go toofar, right?
And so sometimes in a room ofpeople that are filmmakers, they
are so intent on their art andon their casting and on their
script that they forget the factthat it's only gonna go so far
if they can't sell this conceptand sell their film to an
audience, to funders, to, youknow, a broader group.
(01:16):
So I was happy to be asked.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
Yeah, I mean, it's so true.
It's not just about film, too,it's about anything that you
need a pitch.
SPEAKER_02 (01:22):
You're the founder of your own PR firm and you
represent corporations,high-profile people and
celebrities.
And you're so high profile thatI believe Donald Trump suggested
that Roger Elles use you whenthe Gretchen Carlson case broke.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Well, uh, we did get referred by one of Donald
Trump's attorneys the day thatthe Gretchen Carlson case was
filed.
And we did go and sit with RogerAyles and his potary of
attorneys and talent that day.
I did that with my colleagueWarren Cooper.
For about three weeks, theybrought us into their inner
circle, but we never had signedan agreement to represent him.
(02:03):
And he told us his side of thesaga.
I was not a regular Fox viewer,so I really didn't know much
about the ratings of the Carlsonshow.
But it became increasinglyapparent to us as the case, as
we got into this, that peoplewere not being honest with us,
that they were going to try tohave us swear to things that we
were not aware of.
In other words, I'm always happyto say that you say you're
(02:24):
innocent, but I'm not gonna sayyou're innocent if I wasn't
there.
And so they were asking us tosay things that we were
comfortable with.
And finally, after a few weeks,it became increasingly apparent
that all was not as it wasprojected.
So we withdrew and said we werenot comfortable working with
him.
We kept quiet about the wholearrangement for probably six
months or so.
(02:44):
And then one of the employees atFox made a snotty comment about
us to a reporter who then outedthat we had been brought in
early and had left.
And then we got called by theattorneys representing the women
that were suing Roger Ailes andsaid, since you all were aware
that he wasn't being honest,would you be willing to work on
(03:06):
behalf of the women that aresuing him because we could use
your help?
And we thought about it and wesaid yes.
And so we ended up on the sideof many, many of the victims of
his abuse.
And we worked on that case andthe related case with Bill
O'Reilly for um a couple ofyears.
And in the end, hopefully a lotof those people felt that they
(03:27):
got justice when he was whenRoger was told that he had to
leave the network.
And then he died soonafterwards, right.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
I ended up looking at the uh documentary that was
made, Divide and Conquer, aboutyes, so that I got to see you
interviewed a bit in that.
And I have to tell you, it wasvery hard to stomach that
documentary.
I mean, obviously I rememberwhen it was happening, but to
see it so methodically laid outlike that, it's the person who
did that, his name is AlexGibney, and he's probably one of
(03:56):
the most prolific documentaryfilm producers.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
And he lives in New Jersey.
It took him actually a fewmonths to convince us to be part
of that because we generally, asyou probably saw, we don't
generally talk about who ourclients are, and we don't
generally talk about our workbecause we're we're not the kind
of public relations firm thatyou hire if you want to promote
a new salad dressing or announcethat the gym has new hours or
the dry cleaner's open.
Like that's not our scene.
(04:19):
Our scene really is crisis.
So we don't like to talk aboutour clients, and clients don't
like to be spoken about thatthey had to hire a firm like
ours.
But after months and months oftelling us that this documentary
was going to be important andbig and that we were already in
the public domain because theyhad already talked about us in
Vanity Fair and talked about usin the Washington Post, we
finally agreed to be in it.
(04:39):
And then when we went to thepremiere of the film, it was
great.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
With that example, and I love that you ended up
flipping to the other side onceyou learned more.
I'm sure you did.
But that initial assessment of acrisis, I mean, every company
makes mistakes, all humans makemistakes.
How do you determine as yourcompany when you assess a crisis
what you will take on and andwhat you won't?
First of all, it's a verycollegial environment here at
(05:05):
Kelser PR.
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
So when new business comes in, we sit around that
conference table and we talkabout it, particularly for
something that has some concernsor something that we're not
sure.
Like we don't do any cases whereof child sexual abuse.
We're not taking those on.
We're not-I mean, there's likethere's things that we just
won't touch.
I don't care how compelling youare or how important you are or
(05:27):
any any story that you have.
You know, we won't do thingslike that.
We've had kooky requests all thetime.
We get referred by lawyers allthe time.
We had one guy who called up andsaid he had this client who was
unbelievably wonderful, and buthe had been involved in a very
ugly sort of sexual abuse caseand he had a problem.
And I said, What's a problem?
And they said, Whenever he goeson match.com, people find out
(05:50):
about his background.
And I thought, well, thank God.
But we're not doing that.
We're not doing stuff like that,guys.
We don't try to like mask thatfor other wit for unsuspecting
women victims, right?
You know?
So no, but seriously, even whenwe're after big ugly cases, we
discuss it as a group.
That's first of all.
Second of all, we think aboutsort of who's a damaged party.
(06:11):
You know, if it's a corporation,are there jobs at stake?
If by helping the company, evenif the CEO did something bad,
we're saving jobs, we're savingthe company.
They're gonna maybe separatefrom the CEO, but the company
needs to go on, that's verycompelling to us.
So that's different.
It depends on what the issue is,what the person was accused of,
individual.
If there's contrition, that'salways great.
(06:31):
If they lie to us, that's notgreat.
That's when we draw a line too.
If we feel like they're notbeing honest or they're not
taking some accountability,that's a problem.
But most of our work comes to usfrom the attorneys that they
hire, which is usually the firstcall, usually the first calls to
an attorney.
Sometimes it's to us, and thenwe find the attorney.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (06:48):
Have you had always had a good gut feeling since you
were a kid?
Like what what made you feellike you wanted to go into this
and feel like you could trustwhen somebody's telling you a
story that's maybe not totallytrue?
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
I think everybody has sort of the sense that,
like, if I could go back now tomyself when I had no clue what I
wanted to do and tell them, youknow, these are the skills
you're gonna use.
I mean, I had no idea what I wasgonna do.
I went to a liberal arts school,things like public relations, I
didn't know what that was.
They didn't offer that where Iwent.
(07:22):
Um I was an economics major forwhatever that meant in the
world, which is nothing.
I knew what I didn't want to do.
You know, I didn't want to be abanker, I knew that.
I didn't want to go intoinsurance, I didn't want to go
into a lot of things people weredoing.
But I always had as uh sort ofadvanced social skills, I liked
being in a crowded room.
I liked meeting people, I likedhearing people's stories.
(07:44):
I was always curious, theyalways asked a lot of questions.
I just had no idea that I couldturn that into a job or, you
know, that would pay me and makemy rent and all those things.
But it took a couple of movesbefore I figured it out, like
everybody.
And yes, one lead one move leadsto the next move and all of
that.
But now I would say, yes, I havean advanced gut.
I can read a room pretty well, Ican read people pretty well.
(08:07):
But I think half the time, ifyou ask the right questions,
they're gonna tell you, maybenot directly, but they're gonna
tell you enough information foryou to figure it out.
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
I'm curious about your skills and your how you
formed your ability to be a goodconsultant to people that are in
crisis.
You work with the Today Show andsome other television programs
where you're a consultant forthem.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
We get a fair amount of media interest because first
of all, it's a niche field thatwe're in.
There's not a lot of people thatdo what we do.
But we get a lot of phone callsfrom television shows, from news
programs, from magazines to saythings like it depends on what
the crisis of the moment is.
So it can be, you know, what doyou think about the Sydney
Sweeney situation with AmericanEagle?
It could be, what do you thinkabout this athlete who just got
(08:49):
in trouble for doing this?
So everybody's got a stable of afew people that can comment on
high profile reputationalissues.
And I've been very fortunatethat I'm one of them that some
people reach out to.
SPEAKER_02 (09:00):
And well speaking of the Sydney Sweeney thing.
The Sydney Sweeney thing.
I shouldn't have opened mymouth, right?
No.
No, it's okay.
We're curious.
What do you say?
What do you say when theycontact you?
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
I think that one I I think you know, we were asked,
what is this good for hercareer, bad for her career?
What does this mean?
What does this mean for thebrand?
I mean, all of that.
I mean, in the end, you know, Ithink it was not bad for it was
good for the brand, and thebrand's sales showed that it was
good for the brand.
You know, the one of the manychanges that's happened in the
time in which I've been inbusiness is to understand that
(09:31):
almost nothing lasts more than48 hours unless it's truly
earth-shattering.
So even that crisis for thatmoment was good for about two
and a half days, and then theworld moves on.
And that's what you have toremember with all of that.
I think for her business, Ithink what we've seen is that
she's been a pretty savvybusinesswoman in terms of the
deals she's taken.
And she's, you know, she's anin-demand spokesperson, and good
(09:54):
for her.
Good for her.
SPEAKER_02 (09:55):
Has there been a case such as the Justin Baldone
and Blake Lively case, whichjust seems to feed upon itself
for almost a year or two yearsand on?
How would you advise?
Is that something that you studyabout how they're handling that
situation?
Because it's two huge.
SPEAKER_01 (10:13):
I don't know if I would say study.
I don't know that I've enoughtime these days to study anybody
else's dramas.
We have enough of our own thatwe're working on, but but we
certainly monitor a lot of thesecases.
We the situation with that casein particular is there's so much
collateral damage, and there'sso many voices in that one.
And that's part of why it'slasted so long.
It's not just about one actressand one director.
(10:34):
It's an actress, it's adirector, it's PR firms, it's ad
agencies, it's managers.
I mean, there's so many peoplethat are part of that, that are
getting deposed by that, thathave risk in that, that have
financial risk, that have tohire lawyers.
So, and everybody wants to puttheir version of the truth out
there, right, before they get toa jury trial, because everyone
(10:55):
thinks they're going toinfluence a jury and influence a
judge.
So that's why cases like thatare so sticky, because
everybody's trying to get aheadof what they see is what could
be a very ugly, drawn-out kindof court case.
And nobody wants to seethemselves sitting in the
witness stand without asympathetic jury.
So they're all trying toinfluence people that might be
in a jury and or influence thepublic.
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
So it's influencing the court of opinion before I
because it's going to be atrial, because they can't, you
know, they can't seem to settlethings.
SPEAKER_01 (11:24):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
It seems like you also might be dealing a lot with
an emotional client.
Your clients must be, you know,a lot of people are in a
devastated state.
Is it how do you handle theemotional part of these PR
crises?
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
So our job is probably two-thirds therapists
and one-third communicationsprofessionals in almost every
case.
Our clients all are unmonthlyretainers when you hire us.
And we say that because we wantyou to call us as much as you
want, talk to us as much as youwant, unload on us as much as
you want, find us at odd hoursif you need to.
You know, we get it.
(11:58):
We have written comments andscripts for husbands having to
tell their wives that they'rehaving affairs.
We have written scripts for sonshaving to tell their parents
that they, you know, put theirbusiness in bankruptcy.
We've had, I mean, the thingsthat you would not think you
would have to hire someone for.
We have worked on all of thosekinds of things and then some
(12:19):
people having to tell theirsignificant other that they have
drug problems, people havingsaid that they're going to be
arrested.
People, you know, it's sometimesit's the most daunting when it
gets the the innermost,innermost circle to you is how
do I tell those people that loveme, that trust me, that I
counted on, that counted on me,that I kept saying I didn't do
this or it's not me.
And now how do I fess up to thembecause it's all about to come
(12:41):
out in the press because thereweren't telltale signs?
And that can be, you know, wehad to get ourselves into their
voice.
We have to get ourselves becauseit has to sound authentic to
them, you know, so it can't bevery, you know, scripty like you
would it can't come off, youknow, some central casting kind
of thing.
I mean, it has to sound uniqueto them, it has to be authentic
to them, and it has to show alevel of empathy that most of
(13:02):
these people are not used toshowing to the people around
them.
Because usually if you get in aposition of power, you're you've
lost a lot of that those skills.
And all of a sudden, you have tonow try to find it and express a
level of remorse that youprobably haven't done ever in
your life, particularly with allthe Me Too stuff we were doing.
You know, it was one man afteranother, frankly, that
(13:23):
oftentimes had to fess up totheir boards of directors, to
their spouses, to their staff,that they had their hands where
they didn't belong.
And a lot of them had a reallyhard time doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
I am sure they had a hard time.
I mean, did you feel that youcould help them find that
empathy in themselves?
Or was that not?
SPEAKER_02 (13:46):
I mean, to help them find the words is one thing, to
help them actually access thatempathy right, because you know,
the apologies that are now givenonline, they're critiqued so
carefully, like, oh, that wasn'ta real apology, or they didn't
write it.
SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
That was written by a PR firm.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, listen, we we always sayin this office, we had one
person once who said, I was justa total asshole.
I'd prefer that.
And we also I mean, he didn'tsay that in public, but he said
it to us, and I wanted to Iwanted to embrace him and say,
thank you, because at least itmeans you get it, right?
Um, but we have a lot of peoplewho said things like, everyone
(14:22):
does it, I just got caught, youknow, a lot of she wanted, she
flirted, she this, she that.
And you want to say, you know,she's 26, you're 66, please tell
me a story I can believe.
It was hard to not be cynical,having heard so many of these
cases.
And we would have to sit thereand say, Let's really talk about
this.
You know, I get that you thinkthat she found you fascinating
(14:44):
and exciting.
But in reality, in reality, yousigned her paycheck, you
supervised her work, that youknow, perhaps she wasn't as
fascinated as you were, youknow, blah, blah, blah.
Yes, your family is gonna findout.
No, there's no way we can keepit from them, or yes, you are
being asked to leave thecompany.
We have to come up with, youknow, what you're gonna say to
your colleagues when they askwhy you're leaving, all of those
(15:05):
things.
We call those executivetransitions.
No, there were a lot ofexecutive transitions during
that period.
Well, I'm not sure.
But that but the times havechanged because you know, when
we started, it would have beenhow much could I have to pay
this woman to get out of mylife?
And then it became we have toget rid of the CEO.
How much can what's it gonnatake for us to get him out of
our office?
SPEAKER_00 (15:21):
So that's that is we started to see that change in
the news.
And even with the Roger Ailesand then finally, like Bill
O'Reilly having settled beforebecause of Roger Ailes helping
him out that those grosstactics.
Well, finally he was out afterRoger Ailes.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
But like But that was a real C change because it
never used to be.
It used to always be how much dowe have to pay these women to
get them out of our army?
SPEAKER_00 (15:45):
And they can never speak again.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (15:46):
Right.
And even that's changed, youknow, because now there's
necessary.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
Do you do a lot of that, you know, settling, help
people settle before it comesout and sometimes in these cases
people will agree to a mutualstatement.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
And so we will help to draft that, you know, that
comes out from both partiesabout why they're settling a
matter.
And that doesn't just have to besexual, it could be any kind of
dispute.
You know, there's sometimes whenit's been a high profile one and
the press is asking, sometimeseverybody agrees it's best off
if we have one joint statementand we both walk away.
But you know, the laws havechanged around non-disclosure
agreements in part due toGretchen Carlson and our friend
(16:20):
Julie Riginski.
And so, you know, people arefree to be able to talk about
these things if they choose to.
The truth is for most of them,they don't choose to.
And for most of them, they don'twant this to be, you know, what
they're known for.
And for most of them, they wantto have careers after this.
Even if you could talk about it,there's not a lot of employers
who say, oh, please let me hirethat woman that suited the
company for all this money.
You know, that's not always thebest thing to have on your
(16:42):
resume as your, you know,calling card.
So most people still don't talkabout it, even if they do.
I mean, they may talk to theirfriends and family, but it's not
as no one really wants to beknown as the person that stood
up and took on Company X, CEO X,whatever it is.
SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
That's so tricky when you think about it.
You know, it's personallytricky, your career, your
livelihood, your family life.
Ugh.
SPEAKER_01 (17:06):
Especially now with doxing and people, you know,
coming after you uh in personand on the internet.
And I mean, yeah, it's crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (17:13):
And what is it that you're seeing now being the kind
of tactics that are happeningthat are needing to be managed
online?
Because I I'm assuming, like yousaid, it's not so much me too
anymore, maybe it's not so muchdoxing anymore.
Is it something new that'shappening?
SPEAKER_01 (17:27):
What's the strategy or what are the issues that are
what are the issues that you'reseeing that are appearing?
Anything about the Mideast.
Okay.
The Middle East.
Well, we've you know, we'vegotten a load of these people
who comment on what's going onin the Mideast on both sides.
If you comment in a way thatcomes across as too intolerant,
if you come across as a way thatis advocating for action that
(17:47):
others find objectionable, thereare all kinds of websites,
Facebook groups that do nothingbut monitor for this on every
side of these issues and arelooking for people who are
making statements that they findobjectionable and then reposting
it and saying you have toboycott, you have to find out
where they live, you have tocontact their employer.
(18:08):
Listen, the vice president ofthe United States stood up at a
funeral and said, if people comeout and say ugly things about my
friend Charlie Kirk, who alltheir employer, and the minute
they said that, I turned toeveryone in the office and I
said, Bingo, get ready for thephones to ring, and the phone
started to ring.
I mean, and we have seen casesthat are mild, what we would
consider mild.
In other words, someone whosaid, if you liked Charlie Kirk,
(18:31):
then please don't take me offyour friend's list on Facebook.
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (18:35):
People found that unbelievably offensive and
objectionable to people thatsaid much more ugly and awful
things.
SPEAKER_02 (18:42):
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
But so it doesn't really matter.
Whatever is the hottest issueright now, there's so little
tolerance for any kind ofdifference of viewpoints.
People are not getting theirnews from the same places any
longer.
They swear what they're hearingis accurate because they got it
from a website, regardless ofwhat the website is and how
legit it is or who published itor whatever it is.
And so as we all live and sortof have retreated to our own
(19:06):
news pods, for lack of a betterword, you know, our ability to
accept anyone else's viewpointis gotten smaller and smaller.
And Facebook and Instagram andReddit and TikTok and you know,
all these platforms are justfeeding grounds for intolerance
and feeding grounds for peoplebeing violent.
Is your suggestion to just don'ttalk about this at all?
SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
Suggestion to whom?
To to all of us.
I guess uh yeah.
Because we all have emotions.
You can get you almost writesomething and I'll tell you a
personal one.
SPEAKER_01 (19:38):
And you know, if he watches this, I'll probably have
to hear from him.
But I have a brother who likesto use Facebook to talk about
news events all the time.
And I call them up all the timeand I say, Do your friends not
read the news?
Do they really rely on you toget the news?
And and he says to me, What areyou talking about?
I said, Why are you posting allthis?
I you know, why are you postingan article that you found
fascinating?
(19:59):
Do you think your friends are soilliterate that they can't
figure out how to like decidewhat they feel?
But you know, people feel a needto sort of push that stuff out
there, right?
And the problem is when you keeppushing yourself out there, you
are doing one of two things.
You are either narrowing yourown circle because people don't
agree with you just turn off andmove away and write, so you're
not hearing any other vocalviewpoints, you know, or you're
(20:20):
encouraging people who don'tagree with you to sort of just
come after you in a really bigway.
Your own friends, what are theygonna say?
Right, I like that article too.
What is the point of this?
I mean, remember the olden dayswhen everybody posted on
Facebook what they ate?
Those sound like the sweet days,doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
You know, so what would I say to people that maybe
people aren't aren't listeningto what they're hearing and that
maybe they need to tell somepeople that are maybe don't know
what's happening in their littlebubble?
SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
And they're not looking to you as an authority
on world events.
That's the other thing.
So, you know, what would I sayto people?
Listen, if this is who you areand this is the you're willing
to live in this world and andtake the abuse that comes
sometimes from this world, youknow, go for it.
Be true to who you are.
And a lot of people want to beinfluencers and talking hits,
but if it's not your thing andyou're, you know, a normal
(21:08):
individual with a normal socialcircle and all, then you have to
think to yourself, you know,what is it you really want and
who what is it you're trying toencourage?
And what if you do have friendsor people you grew up with that
don't have the same politics asyours?
Is that really gonna be a gamechanger and killer for you?
If it is, then you know, thenaccept that.
But if it's not, and you know,focus on telling them where
(21:28):
you're going, you know, whereyou went on vacation.
I mean, you know, decide whatmatters to you in all of these
universes.
Good advice.
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
You've said that so well.
Also for the younger generation,they're so used to posting
whatever thought comes in theirhead or whatever they see
immediately.
There's no context to anythinganymore.
And that's dangerous.
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
And then one day they're gonna look for a job and
someone's gonna go back not justthree months and not just six
months, but they're gonna goback years and say, look what
this person posted.
Or they're gonna do somethingstupid later in life, and
someone's gonna say, Well, lookwhat they did when they were
younger, and they were-I mean,those we see that all the time.
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
I was wondering if you have to do reputation
management for like high-profilepeople's kids.
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
We have done people's kids, we've done
people's family, we've talkedabout scrubbing social media,
but you know, everyone'sscreenshots.
So even when people, when theysay, Well, I took it down, I
took it down right after I wroteit.
Well, you know, if you're ahigh-profile person with a lot
of followers, what does thateven do?
It does nothing.
It just makes people say, andnow they took it down.
And the number one job goal forpeople that are under 25 right
(22:36):
now, the majority say they wantto be influencers as a career
field.
That's a very odd world that welive in when that's what people
want to do for a living, right?
SPEAKER_02 (22:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
And so that they can get free what?
Cutting knives, so that they canget free, you know, free genes,
so that they can get free makeupsamples that they don't want.
Some people make an incredibleliving, but not a whole lot.
Certainly not a lot, you know,to make you think that that's
the career field of the future.
SPEAKER_02 (23:02):
Well, I've heard I was listening to an Ezra Klein
interview a while back, and theywere talking about that the
economy has shifted to anattention economy.
I mean, we're in it, you know,doing this podcast, you know,
we're all all three of us havesome sort of form of this
attention economy going on.
How did you evolve to become tothe place where you were on the
(23:23):
radar of Roger Ayles' team?
I mean, like, how did you evolveinto that stratosphere of such a
huge thing?
SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
I don't know if I'd call it a stratosphere.
SPEAKER_02 (23:31):
But I mean, well, when you're dealing with one of
the biggest It is.
Yeah.
I think you're in this.
SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
It's pretty big out there.
I'm still and and sitting in RedBank, New Jersey, meeting the
two of you.
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (23:42):
Again, New Jersey is really where it's at.
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
Yeah, there you go.
I'm a big believer.
I would say this.
I didn't really know.
Listen, I I did everything theway you're not supposed to.
I didn't have a business plan.
I didn't have, you know, I hadnothing on paper.
Like all the things that theyalways tell you you're supposed
to have.
I did none of that.
You know, it was very organic.
When I started this, crisiscommunications was not a field.
It was not a firm.
(24:05):
It was not an industry.
It was not any of those things.
Now you can get your master'sdegree in it.
You can, you know, study it incollege.
I had a couple of really cooljobs when I first got out of
school.
I was always a big observer ofeverybody and everything.
I always was somebody that wouldsay, you know, would you be
willing to spend half an hourwith me?
Please, I'll bring the coffee.
(24:26):
And from the time I was incollege, I did I I knew only
what I didn't like.
And I my father kept telling methat I was cut off.
The loving phrase in my housewas, you're cut off the loaf
when you graduate.
So like I knew I had to get myact together.
Um and so I spent my Christmasbreak, my senior year.
I had done all semester.
I'd been, whatever I read, Iwould like to rip out articles
about interesting people andstuff it, stuff it in a desk
(24:48):
drawer, having no idea what Iwas gonna do with it.
Pulled it all out Christmastime.
Nobody had anything to do witheach other.
I mean, it was every kind ofbusiness and industry and name
and location.
And I just started writingletters to people and saying, I
don't know what I'm gonna do.
I'm in college.
Here's my resume.
Would you be willing to spendhalf an hour with me?
I'd love to learn more about howyou got your start.
And that was at a time when Iguess a lot of people weren't
(25:10):
doing those kind of notes.
I was stupid.
I expected everyone to write andsay, of course.
Looking back, I'm surprisedanyone wrote and said of course.
But people did.
And I went and spent time with,you know, like Sonny Werblin who
ran Madison Square Garden.
I d what was I gonna do?
Run a Madison Square Garden?
I didn't know, but I thought itsounded interesting.
Like all these people said,Yeah, I'll sit with you.
So I went, I would take thetrain to New York City, which
(25:32):
was like a 90-minute train ride,and I would make little notes on
my notepad of what questions Iwanted to ask them, and I'd walk
in in a navy blue interviewingsuit because that's what they
told me at college.
You were supposed to wear.
It was so unbelievablyunattractive.
You know, and uh and I wouldwalk in and give a firm
handshake and say, Thank you somuch for taking the time to talk
to me.
And I would ask a lot ofquestions.
Almost inevitably at the end ofevery interview, someone would
(25:54):
say, Is there anyone else thatyou'd like me to introduce you
to?
And I would say, Yes.
I would like to meet more peoplethat do this, whatever it was.
And I just kept going and going.
And in many ways, it's aprecursor for what I do now
because I didn't know what theword networking was.
I didn't know what any of thatstuff.
There was no LinkedIn.
But I always believed if youwere direct with people and you
(26:14):
were authentic with people, youcould build a group of people
around you that you could sortof stress test ideas and careers
and moves with.
And that always worked for meand it still has.
So our network now, which is alot of lawyers and a lot of
people that are in high-profileplaces in business, are people
that I've known for a long time,or people that I met for a long
(26:36):
time, or people I've knownthrough activities or events or
whatever.
And I just didn't lose touchwith, you know.
And when something would come upand I would think about them, I
would get in touch with them, orI would say, I saw this article
and I thought made me think ofyou.
And people like to be thoughtof.
Everyone's favorite subject isthemselves.
They like to think that youremember them, right?
And that you even if it hasnothing to do with what you're
(26:58):
doing right now.
SPEAKER_02 (26:59):
Wow.
I love that method of just beingfriendly and inquisitive and
just but it takes a skill thatnot everybody has and it Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
To treat them all like people, to to not fan out
over them, not like, oh, you'rea celebrity, ooh, ooh, ooh,
because that doesn't work, youknow.
And to not be dismissive ifthey've done something awful and
horrible that you findoffensive.
It's to just meet them wherethey are, to understand that
just like you, you know, they'regetting through every day, and
(27:30):
to befriend as many people asyou can.
SPEAKER_02 (27:33):
It's interesting.
You said something in there, notto be dismissive if they do
something horrible.
And I think that's interestingbecause you're in PR and it
feels like you are able tostomach something that some
people would just cut off peoplefor, you know, and maybe that's
part of the reason you've beenable to navigate this field so
well is that you're able tocontinue the communication and
(27:55):
hear them out and find astrategy for them to navigate
something or that they're notrepair.
SPEAKER_00 (28:01):
But it's like not judgmental and then help them
repair the mistake.
SPEAKER_01 (28:06):
You know, and when you meet people that have been
that have either been caughtdoing something bad or that have
to, you know, usually they'rethey're woped it, you know, in
different ways.
And even if they have a bravado,it drops after a while.
And, you know, law enforcementis scary stuff.
I don't care who you are and andyou know what your career path
has been.
(28:27):
If you feel like you're gettingin legal trouble or you're about
to get in big public trouble andyou're about to be on the front
page of whatever, it's veryhumbling for most people.
And it's a scary time, and theydrop that facade pretty quickly
and will say things like, youknow, what is this gonna do to
me, or what is this gonna do tomy family, or how can you help
me through it?
And what we always say to themall the time is we're really
(28:48):
reputation managers more thancalling ourselves crisis
communications.
It's not just a crisis, it'strying to help them afterwards
have a reputation and get backas much of their reputation as
they can, even if it's a buildback.
I mean, no one's getting it backright away, but you know,
there's a way to build back andto do good and to be seen as,
you know, who you want to beseen as, and to decide how much
(29:08):
of the life that you had was alot of phony stuff or things you
can give up or what you know.
If you're if you're somewhatintrospective, which some people
are or not, but many people are,it does give you a chance if
you've been caught doingsomething bad to sort of think
about like this is how I want tobe known for the rest of my
life, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:26):
And it can it can end up being a pivotal point in
their life that could go in adifferent direction.
Yes, if it is.
Yeah.
So what else does it have?
Sometimes it's not.
SPEAKER_01 (29:37):
Yeah, I'm sure.
Sometimes it's not.
Listen, we always say in thisoffice the athletes and the
entertainers are usually the topof the ladder, meaning no matter
what they do, they can get theirreputations back pretty quickly
if you continue to be a greatathlete, if you continue to be a
fabulous entertainer, if youstill can put out a you know,
hit song.
Uh the world is incrediblyaccepting.
If you're a politician, ifyou're a teacher, if you're a
(29:57):
religious leader, tough.
Tough, tough to to Ever comeback from those things because
you've put yourself out of someversion of a moral authority.
And when you fall, most people,you know, like to have a little
bit of shot before it ends thatmakes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
I think that applies to every almost every politician
except for one.
Sorry, but I mean it doesn'tseem like it's applying to
politicians as much as a lot ofpeople.
SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
Life is law, life is circular, you don't know where
things are going to end up,women.
You know, we can only wait andsee, right?
True.
That's true.
That's true.
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
So outside of crisis management, is there other type
of services that you provide forPR?
SPEAKER_01 (30:34):
I mean, we do lots of monitoring.
So for people that are concernedthat things are gonna going to
pop up, could pop up, you know,we monitor these situations for
them on every kind of socialplatform that so that they don't
have to.
It's not healthy to be mGoogling yourself day in and day
out.
You know, we write for peoplethat sometimes have very high
profile positions and have tospeak a lot.
(30:54):
Sometimes mergers andacquisitions we get brought in,
you know, because we're gonnamerge with a company, how do we
talk to our employees?
And we're gonna have to firepeople, how do we talk to our
employees?
We're gonna have to relocate,how do we talk to our employees?
You know, all of those kinds ofmore standard corporate kinds of
things we do a lot of.
You know, we always say what wedo is sort of not in any way
linked to the economy.
(31:15):
So when the economy's good,people do stupid stuff.
When the economy is bad, peopledo stupid stuff.
We're at people, we're humans dostupid stuff.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter, right, who'sin office, who's not in office.
SPEAKER_00 (31:27):
Just we're dumb.
Keeps rolling along.
SPEAKER_02 (31:30):
Keeps rolling along.
Apparently, humans don't learntheir lessons.
No.
I want to touch base a littlebit on the you being appointed
the New Jersey Film andTelevision Commissioner.
Um, how did that come about andwhat is the role?
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
So um, as I said, I was appointed by Governor
Murphy, and I was delighted.
And I'm still relatively new inthat I'm only a year into my
term.
A couple of the big cases weworked on have been turned into
major motion pictures.
So I think that probably washelpful.
So I've been on Which one?
The movie Hustlers with JenniferLopez about the women who were
(32:07):
scamming the guys who right,yeah.
That's actually that case has alot of New Jersey roots.
And Bombshell, which was theRoger Ailes written as well.
And I've worked, I was atechnical consultant to
Nashville, I was a technicalconsultant to The Good Wife, to
a bunch of things.
So I'm comfortable on televisionsets and movie sets.
I think that was part of it.
I have a daughter who's adirector, I have a son who's a
(32:29):
producer, so this world, thisuniverse is not unfamiliar to
me.
Um, so I think that was part ofwhat got me on.
And then since I've been on,it's been fascinating.
It's exciting that New Jersey isgonna have probably three, if
not more, studios within thenext few years built throughout
the state.
I think it's gonna bring a wholelevel of both creative people to
(32:49):
New Jersey that probably don'tlive here now because one of the
conditions is that they hirepeople.
They don't just bring them fromwhere they're relocating, that
they actually hire them fromhere.
So I think that's gonna bring acreative community here, which
sounds exciting.
I think it's gonna bringinteresting jobs here that have
not been here before, likewardrobe people and makeup
people and set designers andthings like that.
(33:10):
So that's always exciting.
I think that there's a level ofdisruption to communities that
we've been able to be helpfulwith because not everyone is
used to having people shuttingdown streets and, you know,
relocating things and all thatat odd hours of the day and
night or whatever it is.
But the job of the filmcommission is to really
encourage television productionin any form, commercials,
(33:32):
television shows, mini-series,you know, and film documentaries
to big blockbusters to film hereand to see the advantages of New
Jersey.
And I think people are sometimessurprised that if they need a
lighthouse, we have it.
And if they need an urbancenter, we have it.
So a lot of it is a sell job isletting everybody who makes
these decisions know, and then apricing job to try to be
(33:54):
competitive with what othermarkets are offering.
I hope whoever's an ex-governorreally sees the value of this
industry and it should benonpartisan, that this is a
great investment for the stateand a great way for the state to
get away from some of the yuckyimages that the state had for a
long time.
Um and I would hope whoever's anex-governor would continue it.
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
Well, it's been really great to get a chance to
talk to you and some you know,perspective on crisis and PR,
how how it's evolving.
And if we ever have a crisis, weknow who to call.
SPEAKER_01 (34:30):
Everybody that I speak to says the same thing,
which is I hope I never have tocall you.
And we say, we hope you don'teither.
But if you do, you know how tofind us.
That's what we say.
Yes.
Listen, iTunes, what you'redoing to help promote New Jersey
and talent New Jersey is hugelyimportant, and I think it's
great.
And I congratulate you both.
SPEAKER_02 (34:48):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
Thank you.
Thank you both so much.
This podcast was produced byRachel Martens and Jeanette
Afsharian.
You can find us on Spotify,iTunes, and Buzz Sprout.
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
We'd like to welcome you, Karen.
Thank you so much for coming onLost in Jersey.
Thank you for inviting me.
We were lucky enough to meet youwhen we saw you on the panel at
the Indie Fest at Red Bank, Iguess it was.
Right.
As you are on the New JerseyFilm and Television Commission.
SPEAKER_01 (00:20):
Yes.
Was very appreciative that I wasappointed a commissioner by the
governor.
It was uh it was a very nicesurprise.
SPEAKER_02 (00:26):
Well, I'm not surprised that you were because
when we were listening to thepanel, every time you spoke,
Rachel and I were like, What?
We we kept writing down, we needto talk to her.
SPEAKER_00 (00:36):
All right, that's all very kind.
You got I came on, you're verykind.
SPEAKER_01 (00:40):
You don't have to make up a story.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
No, it's really, it's true.
It's true.
You gave very valuable and tothe point tips about public
relations and how people shouldconduct themselves or things to
do to help increase theirpublicity and PR.
SPEAKER_01 (00:55):
You can have the greatest idea, but if you can't
sell it, it's not gonna go toofar, right?
And so sometimes in a room ofpeople that are filmmakers, they
are so intent on their art andon their casting and on their
script that they forget the factthat it's only gonna go so far
if they can't sell this conceptand sell their film to an
audience, to funders, to, youknow, a broader group.
(01:16):
So I was happy to be asked.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
Yeah, I mean, it's so true.
It's not just about film, too,it's about anything that you
need a pitch.
SPEAKER_02 (01:22):
You're the founder of your own PR firm and you
represent corporations,high-profile people and
celebrities.
And you're so high profile thatI believe Donald Trump suggested
that Roger Elles use you whenthe Gretchen Carlson case broke.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Well, uh, we did get referred by one of Donald
Trump's attorneys the day thatthe Gretchen Carlson case was
filed.
And we did go and sit with RogerAyles and his potary of
attorneys and talent that day.
I did that with my colleagueWarren Cooper.
For about three weeks, theybrought us into their inner
circle, but we never had signedan agreement to represent him.
(02:03):
And he told us his side of thesaga.
I was not a regular Fox viewer,so I really didn't know much
about the ratings of the Carlsonshow.
But it became increasinglyapparent to us as the case, as
we got into this, that peoplewere not being honest with us,
that they were going to try tohave us swear to things that we
were not aware of.
In other words, I'm always happyto say that you say you're
(02:24):
innocent, but I'm not gonna sayyou're innocent if I wasn't
there.
And so they were asking us tosay things that we were
comfortable with.
And finally, after a few weeks,it became increasingly apparent
that all was not as it wasprojected.
So we withdrew and said we werenot comfortable working with
him.
We kept quiet about the wholearrangement for probably six
months or so.
(02:44):
And then one of the employees atFox made a snotty comment about
us to a reporter who then outedthat we had been brought in
early and had left.
And then we got called by theattorneys representing the women
that were suing Roger Ailes andsaid, since you all were aware
that he wasn't being honest,would you be willing to work on
(03:06):
behalf of the women that aresuing him because we could use
your help?
And we thought about it and wesaid yes.
And so we ended up on the sideof many, many of the victims of
his abuse.
And we worked on that case andthe related case with Bill
O'Reilly for um a couple ofyears.
And in the end, hopefully a lotof those people felt that they
(03:27):
got justice when he was whenRoger was told that he had to
leave the network.
And then he died soonafterwards, right.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
I ended up looking at the uh documentary that was
made, Divide and Conquer, aboutyes, so that I got to see you
interviewed a bit in that.
And I have to tell you, it wasvery hard to stomach that
documentary.
I mean, obviously I rememberwhen it was happening, but to
see it so methodically laid outlike that, it's the person who
did that, his name is AlexGibney, and he's probably one of
(03:56):
the most prolific documentaryfilm producers.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
And he lives in New Jersey.
It took him actually a fewmonths to convince us to be part
of that because we generally, asyou probably saw, we don't
generally talk about who ourclients are, and we don't
generally talk about our workbecause we're we're not the kind
of public relations firm thatyou hire if you want to promote
a new salad dressing or announcethat the gym has new hours or
the dry cleaner's open.
Like that's not our scene.
(04:19):
Our scene really is crisis.
So we don't like to talk aboutour clients, and clients don't
like to be spoken about thatthey had to hire a firm like
ours.
But after months and months oftelling us that this documentary
was going to be important andbig and that we were already in
the public domain because theyhad already talked about us in
Vanity Fair and talked about usin the Washington Post, we
finally agreed to be in it.
(04:39):
And then when we went to thepremiere of the film, it was
great.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
With that example, and I love that you ended up
flipping to the other side onceyou learned more.
I'm sure you did.
But that initial assessment of acrisis, I mean, every company
makes mistakes, all humans makemistakes.
How do you determine as yourcompany when you assess a crisis
what you will take on and andwhat you won't?
First of all, it's a verycollegial environment here at
(05:05):
Kelser PR.
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
So when new business comes in, we sit around that
conference table and we talkabout it, particularly for
something that has some concernsor something that we're not
sure.
Like we don't do any cases whereof child sexual abuse.
We're not taking those on.
We're not-I mean, there's likethere's things that we just
won't touch.
I don't care how compelling youare or how important you are or
(05:27):
any any story that you have.
You know, we won't do thingslike that.
We've had kooky requests all thetime.
We get referred by lawyers allthe time.
We had one guy who called up andsaid he had this client who was
unbelievably wonderful, and buthe had been involved in a very
ugly sort of sexual abuse caseand he had a problem.
And I said, What's a problem?
And they said, Whenever he goeson match.com, people find out
(05:50):
about his background.
And I thought, well, thank God.
But we're not doing that.
We're not doing stuff like that,guys.
We don't try to like mask thatfor other wit for unsuspecting
women victims, right?
You know?
So no, but seriously, even whenwe're after big ugly cases, we
discuss it as a group.
That's first of all.
Second of all, we think aboutsort of who's a damaged party.
(06:11):
You know, if it's a corporation,are there jobs at stake?
If by helping the company, evenif the CEO did something bad,
we're saving jobs, we're savingthe company.
They're gonna maybe separatefrom the CEO, but the company
needs to go on, that's verycompelling to us.
So that's different.
It depends on what the issue is,what the person was accused of,
individual.
If there's contrition, that'salways great.
(06:31):
If they lie to us, that's notgreat.
That's when we draw a line too.
If we feel like they're notbeing honest or they're not
taking some accountability,that's a problem.
But most of our work comes to usfrom the attorneys that they
hire, which is usually the firstcall, usually the first calls to
an attorney.
Sometimes it's to us, and thenwe find the attorney.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (06:48):
Have you had always had a good gut feeling since you
were a kid?
Like what what made you feellike you wanted to go into this
and feel like you could trustwhen somebody's telling you a
story that's maybe not totallytrue?
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
I think everybody has sort of the sense that,
like, if I could go back now tomyself when I had no clue what I
wanted to do and tell them, youknow, these are the skills
you're gonna use.
I mean, I had no idea what I wasgonna do.
I went to a liberal arts school,things like public relations, I
didn't know what that was.
They didn't offer that where Iwent.
(07:22):
Um I was an economics major forwhatever that meant in the
world, which is nothing.
I knew what I didn't want to do.
You know, I didn't want to be abanker, I knew that.
I didn't want to go intoinsurance, I didn't want to go
into a lot of things people weredoing.
But I always had as uh sort ofadvanced social skills, I liked
being in a crowded room.
I liked meeting people, I likedhearing people's stories.
(07:44):
I was always curious, theyalways asked a lot of questions.
I just had no idea that I couldturn that into a job or, you
know, that would pay me and makemy rent and all those things.
But it took a couple of movesbefore I figured it out, like
everybody.
And yes, one lead one move leadsto the next move and all of
that.
But now I would say, yes, I havean advanced gut.
I can read a room pretty well, Ican read people pretty well.
(08:07):
But I think half the time, ifyou ask the right questions,
they're gonna tell you, maybenot directly, but they're gonna
tell you enough information foryou to figure it out.
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
I'm curious about your skills and your how you
formed your ability to be a goodconsultant to people that are in
crisis.
You work with the Today Show andsome other television programs
where you're a consultant forthem.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
We get a fair amount of media interest because first
of all, it's a niche field thatwe're in.
There's not a lot of people thatdo what we do.
But we get a lot of phone callsfrom television shows, from news
programs, from magazines to saythings like it depends on what
the crisis of the moment is.
So it can be, you know, what doyou think about the Sydney
Sweeney situation with AmericanEagle?
It could be, what do you thinkabout this athlete who just got
(08:49):
in trouble for doing this?
So everybody's got a stable of afew people that can comment on
high profile reputationalissues.
And I've been very fortunatethat I'm one of them that some
people reach out to.
SPEAKER_02 (09:00):
And well speaking of the Sydney Sweeney thing.
The Sydney Sweeney thing.
I shouldn't have opened mymouth, right?
No.
No, it's okay.
We're curious.
What do you say?
What do you say when theycontact you?
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
I think that one I I think you know, we were asked,
what is this good for hercareer, bad for her career?
What does this mean?
What does this mean for thebrand?
I mean, all of that.
I mean, in the end, you know, Ithink it was not bad for it was
good for the brand, and thebrand's sales showed that it was
good for the brand.
You know, the one of the manychanges that's happened in the
time in which I've been inbusiness is to understand that
(09:31):
almost nothing lasts more than48 hours unless it's truly
earth-shattering.
So even that crisis for thatmoment was good for about two
and a half days, and then theworld moves on.
And that's what you have toremember with all of that.
I think for her business, Ithink what we've seen is that
she's been a pretty savvybusinesswoman in terms of the
deals she's taken.
And she's, you know, she's anin-demand spokesperson, and good
(09:54):
for her.
Good for her.
SPEAKER_02 (09:55):
Has there been a case such as the Justin Baldone
and Blake Lively case, whichjust seems to feed upon itself
for almost a year or two yearsand on?
How would you advise?
Is that something that you studyabout how they're handling that
situation?
Because it's two huge.
SPEAKER_01 (10:13):
I don't know if I would say study.
I don't know that I've enoughtime these days to study anybody
else's dramas.
We have enough of our own thatwe're working on, but but we
certainly monitor a lot of thesecases.
We the situation with that casein particular is there's so much
collateral damage, and there'sso many voices in that one.
And that's part of why it'slasted so long.
It's not just about one actressand one director.
(10:34):
It's an actress, it's adirector, it's PR firms, it's ad
agencies, it's managers.
I mean, there's so many peoplethat are part of that, that are
getting deposed by that, thathave risk in that, that have
financial risk, that have tohire lawyers.
So, and everybody wants to puttheir version of the truth out
there, right, before they get toa jury trial, because everyone
(10:55):
thinks they're going toinfluence a jury and influence a
judge.
So that's why cases like thatare so sticky, because
everybody's trying to get aheadof what they see is what could
be a very ugly, drawn-out kindof court case.
And nobody wants to seethemselves sitting in the
witness stand without asympathetic jury.
So they're all trying toinfluence people that might be
in a jury and or influence thepublic.
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
So it's influencing the court of opinion before I
because it's going to be atrial, because they can't, you
know, they can't seem to settlethings.
SPEAKER_01 (11:24):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
It seems like you also might be dealing a lot with
an emotional client.
Your clients must be, you know,a lot of people are in a
devastated state.
Is it how do you handle theemotional part of these PR
crises?
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
So our job is probably two-thirds therapists
and one-third communicationsprofessionals in almost every
case.
Our clients all are unmonthlyretainers when you hire us.
And we say that because we wantyou to call us as much as you
want, talk to us as much as youwant, unload on us as much as
you want, find us at odd hoursif you need to.
You know, we get it.
(11:58):
We have written comments andscripts for husbands having to
tell their wives that they'rehaving affairs.
We have written scripts for sonshaving to tell their parents
that they, you know, put theirbusiness in bankruptcy.
We've had, I mean, the thingsthat you would not think you
would have to hire someone for.
We have worked on all of thosekinds of things and then some
(12:19):
people having to tell theirsignificant other that they have
drug problems, people havingsaid that they're going to be
arrested.
People, you know, it's sometimesit's the most daunting when it
gets the the innermost,innermost circle to you is how
do I tell those people that loveme, that trust me, that I
counted on, that counted on me,that I kept saying I didn't do
this or it's not me.
And now how do I fess up to thembecause it's all about to come
(12:41):
out in the press because thereweren't telltale signs?
And that can be, you know, wehad to get ourselves into their
voice.
We have to get ourselves becauseit has to sound authentic to
them, you know, so it can't bevery, you know, scripty like you
would it can't come off, youknow, some central casting kind
of thing.
I mean, it has to sound uniqueto them, it has to be authentic
to them, and it has to show alevel of empathy that most of
(13:02):
these people are not used toshowing to the people around
them.
Because usually if you get in aposition of power, you're you've
lost a lot of that those skills.
And all of a sudden, you have tonow try to find it and express a
level of remorse that youprobably haven't done ever in
your life, particularly with allthe Me Too stuff we were doing.
You know, it was one man afteranother, frankly, that
(13:23):
oftentimes had to fess up totheir boards of directors, to
their spouses, to their staff,that they had their hands where
they didn't belong.
And a lot of them had a reallyhard time doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
I am sure they had a hard time.
I mean, did you feel that youcould help them find that
empathy in themselves?
Or was that not?
SPEAKER_02 (13:46):
I mean, to help them find the words is one thing, to
help them actually access thatempathy right, because you know,
the apologies that are now givenonline, they're critiqued so
carefully, like, oh, that wasn'ta real apology, or they didn't
write it.
SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
That was written by a PR firm.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, listen, we we always sayin this office, we had one
person once who said, I was justa total asshole.
I'd prefer that.
And we also I mean, he didn'tsay that in public, but he said
it to us, and I wanted to Iwanted to embrace him and say,
thank you, because at least itmeans you get it, right?
Um, but we have a lot of peoplewho said things like, everyone
(14:22):
does it, I just got caught, youknow, a lot of she wanted, she
flirted, she this, she that.
And you want to say, you know,she's 26, you're 66, please tell
me a story I can believe.
It was hard to not be cynical,having heard so many of these
cases.
And we would have to sit thereand say, Let's really talk about
this.
You know, I get that you thinkthat she found you fascinating
(14:44):
and exciting.
But in reality, in reality, yousigned her paycheck, you
supervised her work, that youknow, perhaps she wasn't as
fascinated as you were, youknow, blah, blah, blah.
Yes, your family is gonna findout.
No, there's no way we can keepit from them, or yes, you are
being asked to leave thecompany.
We have to come up with, youknow, what you're gonna say to
your colleagues when they askwhy you're leaving, all of those
(15:05):
things.
We call those executivetransitions.
No, there were a lot ofexecutive transitions during
that period.
Well, I'm not sure.
But that but the times havechanged because you know, when
we started, it would have beenhow much could I have to pay
this woman to get out of mylife?
And then it became we have toget rid of the CEO.
How much can what's it gonnatake for us to get him out of
our office?
SPEAKER_00 (15:21):
So that's that is we started to see that change in
the news.
And even with the Roger Ailesand then finally, like Bill
O'Reilly having settled beforebecause of Roger Ailes helping
him out that those grosstactics.
Well, finally he was out afterRoger Ailes.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
But like But that was a real C change because it
never used to be.
It used to always be how much dowe have to pay these women to
get them out of our army?
SPEAKER_00 (15:45):
And they can never speak again.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (15:46):
Right.
And even that's changed, youknow, because now there's
necessary.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
Do you do a lot of that, you know, settling, help
people settle before it comesout and sometimes in these cases
people will agree to a mutualstatement.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
And so we will help to draft that, you know, that
comes out from both partiesabout why they're settling a
matter.
And that doesn't just have to besexual, it could be any kind of
dispute.
You know, there's sometimes whenit's been a high profile one and
the press is asking, sometimeseverybody agrees it's best off
if we have one joint statementand we both walk away.
But you know, the laws havechanged around non-disclosure
agreements in part due toGretchen Carlson and our friend
(16:20):
Julie Riginski.
And so, you know, people arefree to be able to talk about
these things if they choose to.
The truth is for most of them,they don't choose to.
And for most of them, they don'twant this to be, you know, what
they're known for.
And for most of them, they wantto have careers after this.
Even if you could talk about it,there's not a lot of employers
who say, oh, please let me hirethat woman that suited the
company for all this money.
You know, that's not always thebest thing to have on your
(16:42):
resume as your, you know,calling card.
So most people still don't talkabout it, even if they do.
I mean, they may talk to theirfriends and family, but it's not
as no one really wants to beknown as the person that stood
up and took on Company X, CEO X,whatever it is.
SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
That's so tricky when you think about it.
You know, it's personallytricky, your career, your
livelihood, your family life.
Ugh.
SPEAKER_01 (17:06):
Especially now with doxing and people, you know,
coming after you uh in personand on the internet.
And I mean, yeah, it's crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (17:13):
And what is it that you're seeing now being the kind
of tactics that are happeningthat are needing to be managed
online?
Because I I'm assuming, like yousaid, it's not so much me too
anymore, maybe it's not so muchdoxing anymore.
Is it something new that'shappening?
SPEAKER_01 (17:27):
What's the strategy or what are the issues that are
what are the issues that you'reseeing that are appearing?
Anything about the Mideast.
Okay.
The Middle East.
Well, we've you know, we'vegotten a load of these people
who comment on what's going onin the Mideast on both sides.
If you comment in a way thatcomes across as too intolerant,
if you come across as a way thatis advocating for action that
(17:47):
others find objectionable, thereare all kinds of websites,
Facebook groups that do nothingbut monitor for this on every
side of these issues and arelooking for people who are
making statements that they findobjectionable and then reposting
it and saying you have toboycott, you have to find out
where they live, you have tocontact their employer.
(18:08):
Listen, the vice president ofthe United States stood up at a
funeral and said, if people comeout and say ugly things about my
friend Charlie Kirk, who alltheir employer, and the minute
they said that, I turned toeveryone in the office and I
said, Bingo, get ready for thephones to ring, and the phone
started to ring.
I mean, and we have seen casesthat are mild, what we would
consider mild.
In other words, someone whosaid, if you liked Charlie Kirk,
(18:31):
then please don't take me offyour friend's list on Facebook.
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (18:35):
People found that unbelievably offensive and
objectionable to people thatsaid much more ugly and awful
things.
SPEAKER_02 (18:42):
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
But so it doesn't really matter.
Whatever is the hottest issueright now, there's so little
tolerance for any kind ofdifference of viewpoints.
People are not getting theirnews from the same places any
longer.
They swear what they're hearingis accurate because they got it
from a website, regardless ofwhat the website is and how
legit it is or who published itor whatever it is.
And so as we all live and sortof have retreated to our own
(19:06):
news pods, for lack of a betterword, you know, our ability to
accept anyone else's viewpointis gotten smaller and smaller.
And Facebook and Instagram andReddit and TikTok and you know,
all these platforms are justfeeding grounds for intolerance
and feeding grounds for peoplebeing violent.
Is your suggestion to just don'ttalk about this at all?
SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
Suggestion to whom?
To to all of us.
I guess uh yeah.
Because we all have emotions.
You can get you almost writesomething and I'll tell you a
personal one.
SPEAKER_01 (19:38):
And you know, if he watches this, I'll probably have
to hear from him.
But I have a brother who likesto use Facebook to talk about
news events all the time.
And I call them up all the timeand I say, Do your friends not
read the news?
Do they really rely on you toget the news?
And and he says to me, What areyou talking about?
I said, Why are you posting allthis?
I you know, why are you postingan article that you found
fascinating?
(19:59):
Do you think your friends are soilliterate that they can't
figure out how to like decidewhat they feel?
But you know, people feel a needto sort of push that stuff out
there, right?
And the problem is when you keeppushing yourself out there, you
are doing one of two things.
You are either narrowing yourown circle because people don't
agree with you just turn off andmove away and write, so you're
not hearing any other vocalviewpoints, you know, or you're
(20:20):
encouraging people who don'tagree with you to sort of just
come after you in a really bigway.
Your own friends, what are theygonna say?
Right, I like that article too.
What is the point of this?
I mean, remember the olden dayswhen everybody posted on
Facebook what they ate?
Those sound like the sweet days,doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
You know, so what would I say to people that maybe
people aren't aren't listeningto what they're hearing and that
maybe they need to tell somepeople that are maybe don't know
what's happening in their littlebubble?
SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
And they're not looking to you as an authority
on world events.
That's the other thing.
So, you know, what would I sayto people?
Listen, if this is who you areand this is the you're willing
to live in this world and andtake the abuse that comes
sometimes from this world, youknow, go for it.
Be true to who you are.
And a lot of people want to beinfluencers and talking hits,
but if it's not your thing andyou're, you know, a normal
(21:08):
individual with a normal socialcircle and all, then you have to
think to yourself, you know,what is it you really want and
who what is it you're trying toencourage?
And what if you do have friendsor people you grew up with that
don't have the same politics asyours?
Is that really gonna be a gamechanger and killer for you?
If it is, then you know, thenaccept that.
But if it's not, and you know,focus on telling them where
(21:28):
you're going, you know, whereyou went on vacation.
I mean, you know, decide whatmatters to you in all of these
universes.
Good advice.
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
You've said that so well.
Also for the younger generation,they're so used to posting
whatever thought comes in theirhead or whatever they see
immediately.
There's no context to anythinganymore.
And that's dangerous.
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
And then one day they're gonna look for a job and
someone's gonna go back not justthree months and not just six
months, but they're gonna goback years and say, look what
this person posted.
Or they're gonna do somethingstupid later in life, and
someone's gonna say, Well, lookwhat they did when they were
younger, and they were-I mean,those we see that all the time.
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
I was wondering if you have to do reputation
management for like high-profilepeople's kids.
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
We have done people's kids, we've done
people's family, we've talkedabout scrubbing social media,
but you know, everyone'sscreenshots.
So even when people, when theysay, Well, I took it down, I
took it down right after I wroteit.
Well, you know, if you're ahigh-profile person with a lot
of followers, what does thateven do?
It does nothing.
It just makes people say, andnow they took it down.
And the number one job goal forpeople that are under 25 right
(22:36):
now, the majority say they wantto be influencers as a career
field.
That's a very odd world that welive in when that's what people
want to do for a living, right?
SPEAKER_02 (22:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
And so that they can get free what?
Cutting knives, so that they canget free, you know, free genes,
so that they can get free makeupsamples that they don't want.
Some people make an incredibleliving, but not a whole lot.
Certainly not a lot, you know,to make you think that that's
the career field of the future.
SPEAKER_02 (23:02):
Well, I've heard I was listening to an Ezra Klein
interview a while back, and theywere talking about that the
economy has shifted to anattention economy.
I mean, we're in it, you know,doing this podcast, you know,
we're all all three of us havesome sort of form of this
attention economy going on.
How did you evolve to become tothe place where you were on the
(23:23):
radar of Roger Ayles' team?
I mean, like, how did you evolveinto that stratosphere of such a
huge thing?
SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
I don't know if I'd call it a stratosphere.
SPEAKER_02 (23:31):
But I mean, well, when you're dealing with one of
the biggest It is.
Yeah.
I think you're in this.
SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
It's pretty big out there.
I'm still and and sitting in RedBank, New Jersey, meeting the
two of you.
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (23:42):
Again, New Jersey is really where it's at.
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
Yeah, there you go.
I'm a big believer.
I would say this.
I didn't really know.
Listen, I I did everything theway you're not supposed to.
I didn't have a business plan.
I didn't have, you know, I hadnothing on paper.
Like all the things that theyalways tell you you're supposed
to have.
I did none of that.
You know, it was very organic.
When I started this, crisiscommunications was not a field.
It was not a firm.
(24:05):
It was not an industry.
It was not any of those things.
Now you can get your master'sdegree in it.
You can, you know, study it incollege.
I had a couple of really cooljobs when I first got out of
school.
I was always a big observer ofeverybody and everything.
I always was somebody that wouldsay, you know, would you be
willing to spend half an hourwith me?
Please, I'll bring the coffee.
(24:26):
And from the time I was incollege, I did I I knew only
what I didn't like.
And I my father kept telling methat I was cut off.
The loving phrase in my housewas, you're cut off the loaf
when you graduate.
So like I knew I had to get myact together.
Um and so I spent my Christmasbreak, my senior year.
I had done all semester.
I'd been, whatever I read, Iwould like to rip out articles
about interesting people andstuff it, stuff it in a desk
(24:48):
drawer, having no idea what Iwas gonna do with it.
Pulled it all out Christmastime.
Nobody had anything to do witheach other.
I mean, it was every kind ofbusiness and industry and name
and location.
And I just started writingletters to people and saying, I
don't know what I'm gonna do.
I'm in college.
Here's my resume.
Would you be willing to spendhalf an hour with me?
I'd love to learn more about howyou got your start.
And that was at a time when Iguess a lot of people weren't
(25:10):
doing those kind of notes.
I was stupid.
I expected everyone to write andsay, of course.
Looking back, I'm surprisedanyone wrote and said of course.
But people did.
And I went and spent time with,you know, like Sonny Werblin who
ran Madison Square Garden.
I d what was I gonna do?
Run a Madison Square Garden?
I didn't know, but I thought itsounded interesting.
Like all these people said,Yeah, I'll sit with you.
So I went, I would take thetrain to New York City, which
(25:32):
was like a 90-minute train ride,and I would make little notes on
my notepad of what questions Iwanted to ask them, and I'd walk
in in a navy blue interviewingsuit because that's what they
told me at college.
You were supposed to wear.
It was so unbelievablyunattractive.
You know, and uh and I wouldwalk in and give a firm
handshake and say, Thank you somuch for taking the time to talk
to me.
And I would ask a lot ofquestions.
Almost inevitably at the end ofevery interview, someone would
(25:54):
say, Is there anyone else thatyou'd like me to introduce you
to?
And I would say, Yes.
I would like to meet more peoplethat do this, whatever it was.
And I just kept going and going.
And in many ways, it's aprecursor for what I do now
because I didn't know what theword networking was.
I didn't know what any of thatstuff.
There was no LinkedIn.
But I always believed if youwere direct with people and you
(26:14):
were authentic with people, youcould build a group of people
around you that you could sortof stress test ideas and careers
and moves with.
And that always worked for meand it still has.
So our network now, which is alot of lawyers and a lot of
people that are in high-profileplaces in business, are people
that I've known for a long time,or people that I met for a long
(26:36):
time, or people I've knownthrough activities or events or
whatever.
And I just didn't lose touchwith, you know.
And when something would come upand I would think about them, I
would get in touch with them, orI would say, I saw this article
and I thought made me think ofyou.
And people like to be thoughtof.
Everyone's favorite subject isthemselves.
They like to think that youremember them, right?
And that you even if it hasnothing to do with what you're
(26:58):
doing right now.
SPEAKER_02 (26:59):
Wow.
I love that method of just beingfriendly and inquisitive and
just but it takes a skill thatnot everybody has and it Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
To treat them all like people, to to not fan out
over them, not like, oh, you'rea celebrity, ooh, ooh, ooh,
because that doesn't work, youknow.
And to not be dismissive ifthey've done something awful and
horrible that you findoffensive.
It's to just meet them wherethey are, to understand that
just like you, you know, they'regetting through every day, and
(27:30):
to befriend as many people asyou can.
SPEAKER_02 (27:33):
It's interesting.
You said something in there, notto be dismissive if they do
something horrible.
And I think that's interestingbecause you're in PR and it
feels like you are able tostomach something that some
people would just cut off peoplefor, you know, and maybe that's
part of the reason you've beenable to navigate this field so
well is that you're able tocontinue the communication and
(27:55):
hear them out and find astrategy for them to navigate
something or that they're notrepair.
SPEAKER_00 (28:01):
But it's like not judgmental and then help them
repair the mistake.
SPEAKER_01 (28:06):
You know, and when you meet people that have been
that have either been caughtdoing something bad or that have
to, you know, usually they'rethey're woped it, you know, in
different ways.
And even if they have a bravado,it drops after a while.
And, you know, law enforcementis scary stuff.
I don't care who you are and andyou know what your career path
has been.
(28:27):
If you feel like you're gettingin legal trouble or you're about
to get in big public trouble andyou're about to be on the front
page of whatever, it's veryhumbling for most people.
And it's a scary time, and theydrop that facade pretty quickly
and will say things like, youknow, what is this gonna do to
me, or what is this gonna do tomy family, or how can you help
me through it?
And what we always say to themall the time is we're really
(28:48):
reputation managers more thancalling ourselves crisis
communications.
It's not just a crisis, it'strying to help them afterwards
have a reputation and get backas much of their reputation as
they can, even if it's a buildback.
I mean, no one's getting it backright away, but you know,
there's a way to build back andto do good and to be seen as,
you know, who you want to beseen as, and to decide how much
(29:08):
of the life that you had was alot of phony stuff or things you
can give up or what you know.
If you're if you're somewhatintrospective, which some people
are or not, but many people are,it does give you a chance if
you've been caught doingsomething bad to sort of think
about like this is how I want tobe known for the rest of my
life, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:26):
And it can it can end up being a pivotal point in
their life that could go in adifferent direction.
Yes, if it is.
Yeah.
So what else does it have?
Sometimes it's not.
SPEAKER_01 (29:37):
Yeah, I'm sure.
Sometimes it's not.
Listen, we always say in thisoffice the athletes and the
entertainers are usually the topof the ladder, meaning no matter
what they do, they can get theirreputations back pretty quickly
if you continue to be a greatathlete, if you continue to be a
fabulous entertainer, if youstill can put out a you know,
hit song.
Uh the world is incrediblyaccepting.
If you're a politician, ifyou're a teacher, if you're a
(29:57):
religious leader, tough.
Tough, tough to to Ever comeback from those things because
you've put yourself out of someversion of a moral authority.
And when you fall, most people,you know, like to have a little
bit of shot before it ends thatmakes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
I think that applies to every almost every politician
except for one.
Sorry, but I mean it doesn'tseem like it's applying to
politicians as much as a lot ofpeople.
SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
Life is law, life is circular, you don't know where
things are going to end up,women.
You know, we can only wait andsee, right?
True.
That's true.
That's true.
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
So outside of crisis management, is there other type
of services that you provide forPR?
SPEAKER_01 (30:34):
I mean, we do lots of monitoring.
So for people that are concernedthat things are gonna going to
pop up, could pop up, you know,we monitor these situations for
them on every kind of socialplatform that so that they don't
have to.
It's not healthy to be mGoogling yourself day in and day
out.
You know, we write for peoplethat sometimes have very high
profile positions and have tospeak a lot.
(30:54):
Sometimes mergers andacquisitions we get brought in,
you know, because we're gonnamerge with a company, how do we
talk to our employees?
And we're gonna have to firepeople, how do we talk to our
employees?
We're gonna have to relocate,how do we talk to our employees?
You know, all of those kinds ofmore standard corporate kinds of
things we do a lot of.
You know, we always say what wedo is sort of not in any way
linked to the economy.
(31:15):
So when the economy's good,people do stupid stuff.
When the economy is bad, peopledo stupid stuff.
We're at people, we're humans dostupid stuff.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter, right, who'sin office, who's not in office.
SPEAKER_00 (31:27):
Just we're dumb.
Keeps rolling along.
SPEAKER_02 (31:30):
Keeps rolling along.
Apparently, humans don't learntheir lessons.
No.
I want to touch base a littlebit on the you being appointed
the New Jersey Film andTelevision Commissioner.
Um, how did that come about andwhat is the role?
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
So um, as I said, I was appointed by Governor
Murphy, and I was delighted.
And I'm still relatively new inthat I'm only a year into my
term.
A couple of the big cases weworked on have been turned into
major motion pictures.
So I think that probably washelpful.
So I've been on Which one?
The movie Hustlers with JenniferLopez about the women who were
(32:07):
scamming the guys who right,yeah.
That's actually that case has alot of New Jersey roots.
And Bombshell, which was theRoger Ailes written as well.
And I've worked, I was atechnical consultant to
Nashville, I was a technicalconsultant to The Good Wife, to
a bunch of things.
So I'm comfortable on televisionsets and movie sets.
I think that was part of it.
I have a daughter who's adirector, I have a son who's a
(32:29):
producer, so this world, thisuniverse is not unfamiliar to
me.
Um, so I think that was part ofwhat got me on.
And then since I've been on,it's been fascinating.
It's exciting that New Jersey isgonna have probably three, if
not more, studios within thenext few years built throughout
the state.
I think it's gonna bring a wholelevel of both creative people to
(32:49):
New Jersey that probably don'tlive here now because one of the
conditions is that they hirepeople.
They don't just bring them fromwhere they're relocating, that
they actually hire them fromhere.
So I think that's gonna bring acreative community here, which
sounds exciting.
I think it's gonna bringinteresting jobs here that have
not been here before, likewardrobe people and makeup
people and set designers andthings like that.
(33:10):
So that's always exciting.
I think that there's a level ofdisruption to communities that
we've been able to be helpfulwith because not everyone is
used to having people shuttingdown streets and, you know,
relocating things and all thatat odd hours of the day and
night or whatever it is.
But the job of the filmcommission is to really
encourage television productionin any form, commercials,
(33:32):
television shows, mini-series,you know, and film documentaries
to big blockbusters to film hereand to see the advantages of New
Jersey.
And I think people are sometimessurprised that if they need a
lighthouse, we have it.
And if they need an urbancenter, we have it.
So a lot of it is a sell job isletting everybody who makes
these decisions know, and then apricing job to try to be
(33:54):
competitive with what othermarkets are offering.
I hope whoever's an ex-governorreally sees the value of this
industry and it should benonpartisan, that this is a
great investment for the stateand a great way for the state to
get away from some of the yuckyimages that the state had for a
long time.
Um and I would hope whoever's anex-governor would continue it.
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
Well, it's been really great to get a chance to
talk to you and some you know,perspective on crisis and PR,
how how it's evolving.
And if we ever have a crisis, weknow who to call.
SPEAKER_01 (34:30):
Everybody that I speak to says the same thing,
which is I hope I never have tocall you.
And we say, we hope you don'teither.
But if you do, you know how tofind us.
That's what we say.
Yes.
Listen, iTunes, what you'redoing to help promote New Jersey
and talent New Jersey is hugelyimportant, and I think it's
great.
And I congratulate you both.
SPEAKER_02 (34:48):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
Thank you.
Thank you both so much.
This podcast was produced byRachel Martens and Jeanette
Afsharian.
You can find us on Spotify,iTunes, and Buzz Sprout.
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
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